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Ep 24- Go Now You Are Forgiven
31 Plays8 months ago
Rohan and Gondor prepare for The Horrors of War! Ryn and Sam discuss said Horrors, first aid training, Ryn's extensive trumpet knowledge, peace, Sparta, service, and My Little Pony!
CW: contains discussions of war, suicide, and parental abuse
Covers Book V Chapter III: The Muster of Rohan and Book V Chapter IV: The Siege of Gondor
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Transcript
Sam Gamgee Cult Phenomenon
00:00:00
Speaker
Bit of Earth, to paraphrase a two hour video essay, it was a fan website specifically about Sam Gamgee that was made in the early 2000s. And they posted a lot of Sam and Frodo slash fake mostly. But it was very Sam focused and the person who created this website believed that he had psychic powers and could channel the spirits, souls, if you will, of various Lord of the Rings characters and communicate with his followers from their point of view.
00:00:45
Speaker
He faked his own death multiple times, literally started a cult. It was the fucking wildest journey. One of the comments on that video was like, you know, it's going to be wild if psychic powers comes up. 12 minutes into a two hour video essay. It was the most bat shit. That's not like the punchline or like wild thing. And that same guy after all of this chaos, everyone should go watch that video. It's great. He did it again. He started another cult with channeling spirits and shit, but for Harry Potter a couple of years later. It's
00:01:28
Speaker
I just, I lost it. But now I know that there was a point in time where there was a legitimate Lord of the Rings cult and people were having mystical hobbit sex with their great leader, but it wasn't cheating because it was different spirits having sex with the people. It really, it just rocked my world. I've been reading a lot of things about cults recently.
00:01:53
Speaker
maybe more than I should, maybe more than is healthy, but it was just absolutely, absolutely wild.
Life in Evangelical Group and Marriage Reflections
00:02:02
Speaker
I put a well-trained wife on hold at the library and I don't know if I i will end up reading it, but it was excellent. It was very, very good. it was She's an amazing writer. I mean, that's writing in some form or another has been her career for many years, so she's really talented at communicating. But it is extremely graphic about every single aspect of her life in an extremely conservative evangelical group and her very, very abusive marriage.
00:02:37
Speaker
so Prepare yourself for that, but it was really good. Yeah. And then afterwards I was just like, Oh, there, there are some people in my life who need a hug.
00:02:51
Speaker
So, you know who you are. You're getting an extra hug. We've discussed it. Any other non-culti banter? Hmm. Not that I can think of my brain is just kind of scrambled egg today.
00:03:06
Speaker
Yeah, i'm just I'm just kind of surviving. Yeah. So transitioning from religious trauma, would you like to get into the trauma of war? Because we've got a lot of that to talk about this week. Oh, there's so much trauma. Pippin needs so much therapy.
Introducing 'Return of the King' Discussion
00:03:45
Speaker
Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Phantom Apprentice. I'm Rin, and I'm tired. I'm Sam, and I have the zoomies. So we have a fun complimentary energy today. We complete each other, as always. You have the brain cell? I do.
00:04:11
Speaker
So maybe I, as the holder of the brain cell, will introduce the episode unless you really want to do it. No, I'm good. yeah're were We're like, we're a full two ah books and change in. And um so I think I'll hand it off to the apprentice for this one. Party time. it's It's my show now. All right, let's go. So
Tolkien's World-Building vs Modern Fantasy
00:04:35
Speaker
you're here. You know the premise of the show. Rin has read these books before. I haven't. We're on Return of the King.
00:04:41
Speaker
Chapter three, the muster of Rohan, unless you have any further banter, I think we can get right into it because we pick up basically right where we left off time wise, but in a different location.
00:04:54
Speaker
We had left off with Pippin watching the soldiers coming in to reinforce Minas Tirith, but it's a POV switch back to Merry. So he is riding up front with Theoden. Not a lot is happening right at the beginning of the chapter. There's a lot of sections in these two chapters where I just kind of wrote some more stuff or not much happens. And yet I still have six pages of notes for these two chapters.
00:05:25
Speaker
There's a lot of you know what I've come to think about as like Tolkien filler. which is to say it's worth the read. you I feel like when people think of these books as dense, it's because of these little sections where there's either like very intense descriptions over the course of about two paragraphs of like how beautiful this one field is.
00:06:01
Speaker
and also its entire history and the men who once lived there and the stones that are built there and the geological history of this one valley over the last 10,000 years, right?
Merry's Reflections on War and Place
00:06:16
Speaker
And it's not really relevant to the overall plot. And I feel like when you compare it to like a modern day fantasy,
00:06:28
Speaker
where everything is going to come up again you know this it feels extraneous but it's not necessarily it creates a living world around our characters yeah i think it would feel extraneous in a contemporary fantasy just because of what we expect that everything's going to be super efficient and if there's something that's mentioned that's not brought up again that automatically is interpreted as just bad writing. But I think that specifically with what Tolkien's trying to achieve with creating this living world and this mythology for England, he's trying to, or I am assuming that he's trying to, create a story structure
00:07:21
Speaker
that will transcend any one particular literary trend. So the things that we in 2024 feel are important to the plot is just our own particular lens of what kind of stories we like. But somebody in a different time or a different context might find other pieces of the story to be important. And having it be so filled out, I think is part of what allows it to keep living and to make it worth digging into and worth exploring and worth continuing to interpret. Because if it was just optimized for maximum plot, it wouldn't be as interesting.
00:08:07
Speaker
Yeah. And so here is sort of how I think about our role in this podcast is we're distilling down plot. If you are coming from the same place that Sam is, where you've never read these books before, you have sort of a general cultural awareness of Lord of the Rings, and you wanna know what happens, you can learn what happens more or less from us. But you're not going to get sort of these broader details, and i think I think all of these broader details are worth it. But also if you choose to then read these books and you choose to skip over some of these broader details, you're not missing
00:08:47
Speaker
things necessarily. it all All they do is deepen your experience of the story. Yeah, and I feel like it's been a little while since we've talked about that. War flashbacks to the Council of Elrond, which I still hate. You can skip stuff. If there's paragraphs that seem boring, just don't read them. It's fine. Don't let that intimidate you when you otherwise might be curious to try the books. like It's fine. It's not that deep. But that being said, they're riding. Nothing much is happening. And Theoden is talking to Amr about how he wants to, he being Theoden, wants to join the soldiers on the front and participate in the war.
Eowyn's Defiance and Merry's Admiration
00:09:39
Speaker
And Amr is cautioning him to
00:09:42
Speaker
maybe make a symbolic appearance and then come back home because he is an old man and an important leader and he shouldn't go risking his life. And Theoden gently but firmly insists that he's had enough worm tongue flavored bullshit. He's not hiding in the shadows anymore. So he goes and joins the rest of the soldiers and gets this big spectacular reception with a million trumpets, which is the first of many trumpet related things.
00:10:13
Speaker
I wanted to go back because you said not a lot was happening at the beginning when they were riding along, but i I don't agree. Okay, I am willing to be proven wrong. Because we're starting to get into Mary's head here. We're learning that yeah he and Theoden have been talking for a lot of this journey. There's portions where they're just sort of riding along in silence together and Mary's contemplating his place in the world and in the war and among the Rohirrim. But I feel like this this beginning of the chapter is what makes his responses to Theoden specifically later in the chapter more profound.
00:11:05
Speaker
Because otherwise he doesn't really have a bond with Theoden at all. Yeah, that makes sense. The other thing too is, this will come up a couple of times in the chapter, is Merry is feeling left behind.
Merry's Role and Quest Reflections
00:11:21
Speaker
He's feeling, he's sort of questioning his place in this quest, this overall giant quest that has now become a war for existence.
00:11:34
Speaker
He's our insert, our you know audience insert here for the average person. And so you have you know lines like, he loved mountains or he loved the thought of them marching on the edge of stories brought from far away. But now he was born down by the insupportable weight of middle earth. He longed to shut out the immensity in a quiet room by a fire.
00:12:00
Speaker
And this made me think of two quotes about space.
00:12:06
Speaker
Edgar Mitchell, an astronaut on Apollo 13, I think it was, talked about looking at the Earth from the moon. and Saying you know you develop an instant global consciousness of people orientation in intense dissatisfaction with the state of the world The compulsion to do something up about it from out there on the moon international politics looks so petty you want to grow a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter million miles out and say look at that you son of a bitch and Then the other one is you know one of my
00:12:44
Speaker
favorite pieces of writing ever is from the introduction to Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot um book. And it's referring to the image that Voyager 1 took, in which Earth is a tiny little pixel of light in a sunbeam. Right? In the last paragraph,
00:13:11
Speaker
starts out, it's been said that astronomy is a humbling and character building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny of our tiny world. there's There's some other lines through this section of the introduction of, our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.
00:13:42
Speaker
And I think that is what Mary is feeling here, is that feeling of total inadequacy and that feeling of just being very small. yeah i I love being out in the wilderness. I love being out in the mountains. And yet sometimes when you are standing you know up among mountains, you realize how tiny you are and the world becomes very overwhelming.
00:14:13
Speaker
And so for Mary to want to go and you shut out the immensity in a quiet room by a fire, that makes total sense. so He is dealing with you not only the, like it says, the immensity of Middle Earth, the insupportable weight of Middle Earth. He's dealing with this fight for existence um and thoughts of his friends all off on what he considers to be sort of more important parts of this quest and feeling like you know he was chosen for this quest but also now doesn't feel like he's contributing but at the same time you know i think at multiple parts in this chapter is wondering whether he can contribute you know how can one hobbit contribute
00:15:08
Speaker
Yeah. And i think I think keeping that perspective in mind as we go through the chapter makes his decisions and his words and his interactions with Theoden make a lot more sense. Yeah, I think you're right. And he doesn't want his participation to be symbolic because he gets, I feel like a couple of opportunities to dip out, basically, to be relieved of his duty. No one will hold it against him if he just wants to, you know, go scamper off and do something else. But he is really committed to actually making something real happen. I think, i think you know, it's a little piece of the, you know, now that he knows this world is out there,
00:16:01
Speaker
Now that he knows that like he has a possibility of contributing, he feels like he has to. Once you know that you know there is a fight for your existence on the horizon, you have to do something about it. Once you see the world from the moon, once you see the you think about our planet as a tiny little blue dot, you can't just bury your head in the sand any anymore.
00:16:28
Speaker
Yeah, and Pippin is having a parallel experience with what's his face. There's so many parallels between Mary and Pippin. What's his fucking name, Denethor? We'll talk about him later. there i have I have a couple of parallel thoughts between how Theoden and treats Mary and Mary's service and how Theoden views service and how Denethor views service and treats Pippin because of it. and We'll get to that. Yeah, sort of.
00:16:59
Speaker
building on these thematic parallels and opposites. We've reached on Harrow where Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli just were. and thematically and visually, it's really the opposite of Minas
Paths of the Dead Folklore vs Knowledge
00:17:13
Speaker
Tirith, which was all shiny and glittery and golden with amazing towers, and Dunharrow is ominous black stones, and a pillar that's described as a menace, and the men who built Dunharrow are long gone, and nobody knows why they built it, and they're
00:17:33
Speaker
Tolkien is talking about these lines of marching stones that were worn in black. Some were leaning, some were fallen, some cracked or broken. They looked like rows of old and hungry teeth. So that's the environment that we're entering into. It's not pleasant. And you've got the little, yeah, you've also got the little stone puglemen.
00:17:55
Speaker
I didn't fully understand that, what was going on there. The Puckelmen are like ancient carved figures, ah clearly carved by the same people who constructed Dunharrow. And I'd honestly completely forgot about the Puckelmen because they're not like, they're another one of these sort of pieces of set dressing, but they captured my attention on this read through. And the description reminded me of the Code of Peace statue in Salzburg, Austria, which is a creepy little statue ah designed by Anna Kromi,
00:18:30
Speaker
And I'll put a picture on our Insta for this week's episode. But the word Puck, P-U-C, means goblin and puka or puso. P-U-C-E-L means devil in Old English. Both of those words are related to the term puck in folklore Shakespeare and to the name of the pug dog breed. Oh, that makes sense. I used to have a pug, so I feel like I can endorse that.
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah, we've we've remarked before that the Rohuric language is just old English and this continues to be true, basically. There's also one other word that gets used a bunch in these chapters that I want to mention the. Not etymology of, but Waynes, W A I N S. It just means a cart. Oh, OK. I kept hearing it in the audiobook and being like,
00:19:27
Speaker
Is this the Scots word for small child? Um, and then being like, no, but the context does not make sense for this. The word that I Googled was fell because obviously we know what fell means if something fell down, but it can also mean like evil. So there are fell things happening or the fell warriors. That was, that was news to me. So in case anyone else didn't know, that's what felt can also mean. I had to scroll down through several definitions before I got to that one that made sense.
00:19:58
Speaker
I do love these books for what they did to my vocabulary. oh Another positive thing is as they're writing in, they see a writer, a woman with long braided hair gleaming in the twilight, yet she wore a helm and was clad to the waist like a warrior and girded with a sword.
00:20:18
Speaker
Mommy, sorry, Mommy. And I had to invite notes in all caps. Aowyn, Aowyn, looking like a badass. It's Aowyn with a steel chair. She's here. Very excited. She's geared up for more even though Aragorn told her not to be. Oh, I love it. I love it. And I was hoping for more badass action from her in these chapters. Didn't really get it, but I know it's coming.
00:20:42
Speaker
and i I am just so excited. I want to see her fight. But for now, I will just because I'm gay. I don't think we've talked about that in a hot minute. So I am just imagining a strong, strong woman with sword on horse. I do whatever she says. Mm hmm. And that's it. My brain short circuited. She says stuff and does stuff, but I it just had to take a moment for that. Yeah, I mean, a one sort of.
00:21:12
Speaker
gives them a description of what happened in the Paths of the Dead chapter. I i do love Tolkien's sort of tendency to be like, I'm filling in my characters now, but I'm not gonna make you reread any of this.
Theoden's Family Ties and Heir Acknowledgment
00:21:31
Speaker
You already did it, it's fine, we're done. you know Just reminding you of what these characters know and don't know.
00:21:40
Speaker
isn This is the first time that Mary's like, what the fuck is the paths of the dead? Yeah. um I also love, there's another, there's a note here at one point, Theoden refers to Eowyn as daughter. I noticed that as well, but she's his niece, right? She is. Well, in a few lines earlier, he referred to Eomer as his son. <unk> And this is, this is sort of explicit acknowledgement of them as his heirs.
00:22:12
Speaker
isn' Now, and the way I interpreted Theoden calling Amer his son specifically was because that was part of that same paragraph where he said that he would not be, you know, cowed by the words of Wormtongue anymore. You know, I sort of interpreted that as, you know, Wormtongue had been trying to separate the king from his trusted advisors and from his family.
00:22:40
Speaker
And so Theoden, now explicitly calling Amer and Eowyn his children, is purposefully drawing them in closer and acknowledging their ties as a way of saying like, ah you know, i will I won't be separated from you again. Oh, I love that. Yeah, Theoden's a good guy. I like Theoden.
00:23:09
Speaker
He's a good king. Anyway. We get sort of a history of the paths of the dead from the minds of the Rohirrim. Because during the Paths of the Dead chapter, we got what Aragorn knew, which is of course sort of the actual history of the Paths of the Dead. But now we get sort of the folklore of the Paths of the Dead. And I feel like now we really understand why they didn't want Aragorn to go there.
00:23:39
Speaker
I feel like I didn't pay as close attention to that part. So what is the gist of why they didn't want him to go? I mean, the same thing that we kind of got last time, which is that it's, it's a place of the dead and people who go in don't come out. um I don't, I didn't write down a ton of notes on it, but if you want to read people being freaked out by a place called the paths of the dead, it's a good little section about it.
00:24:09
Speaker
I mean, it's scary and dangerous, but as we've observed many times, it's a scary and dangerous quest. So, yeah, desperate times, desperate measures, it seems appropriate. Speaking of desperate times, some a dude named Hurgan from Gondor, he's a messenger from Gondor, shows up carrying a black arrow with a red tip.
Gondor's Call for Aid and Theoden's Response
00:24:34
Speaker
Oh yes. Which is basically Gondor's symbol calling for aid. Yes. And it hasn't been used in an extremely long time, like the signal fires. And this poor guy also just gives Mary a heart attack because apparently he looks just like Boromir. Unrelated guy just shows up and Mary's like, Oh my God, Boromir back from the dead. No.
00:25:02
Speaker
He presents them with the arrow, and there's a bit of a back and forth about how many men can be gathered and how quickly, and Hrgun is extremely worried that in the week that it would take writers to get there, Minas Tirith would just be rubble, basically. He's basically saying to Theoden, like, you can show up after a week, and we will be happy to have you drive the orcs from our bodies. Mm hmm. But there won't be anyone left to save. But Thadon does hold firm and says that he literally just came from battle and he needs to rest and ah has her gone stay the night with them. And he's pretty pragmatic about
00:25:55
Speaker
how quickly they can realistically gather people. And yes, it would be nice to get there faster than a week, but I don't know if that's going to happen, buddy, but stay with us in our camp, sleep on it. And there was a quote at the end of that exchange that isn't terribly significant, but I just liked it because it feels like a good little saying. In the morning, counsels are best and night changes many thoughts.
00:26:20
Speaker
That just seems like a good folksy saying, a nice way of saying sleep on it. Think about it. Night changes many thoughts. Don't try to make decisions in the heat of the moment when this very frazzled messenger is presenting you with the special arrow. Just take a second. And I can respect that because, you know, the eight hours that it's going to take them to sleep is not going to make or break the fate of Minas Tirith. It's worth it.
00:26:45
Speaker
welland you know, if they ride nonstop for days and exhaust themselves and their horses before they get to Gondor, they'll be completely destroyed on the battlefield. And I think of every first aid training I've ever taken, where one of the first pieces of instruction they give you is, oh, Hey, if you're ever in a scene where you're delivering first aid, the first thing that you do is check the scene around you.
00:27:15
Speaker
If it is not safe for you to go deliver first aid, you don't. Even in if in that situation someone might die, and it's tragic, but do not be a second person to rescue or a second casualty. Yeah.
00:27:38
Speaker
and so Theoden here saying like my people need time is him providing the best possible chance for Gondor as well. Anyway, in the night sort of is where we get Mary first thinking about um being left behind and worrying that Theoden is going to go off without him.
00:28:07
Speaker
which is a valid worry. He's already been left by all of his friends in like three to four different rounds, if depending on if you count Boromir dying as a separate round.
00:28:19
Speaker
yeah and Unfortunately, his anxiety was kind of justified because first thing in the quote unquote morning, because the terrible darkness has arrived. So it doesn't actually feel like morning. Basically the first thing that happens is they had in releases Mary from his service, which is terrible for his abandonment issues. But luckily Aragorn knew that Mary was not going anywhere and he had made provisions for him to get fully kitted out for battle. So.
00:28:49
Speaker
Aowin gives him a leather jerkin, a belt, and a knife. And he does. end up riding out with the soldiers. But that was not a good emotional roller coaster for him to be on. I understand why Phaidon released Mary, but because, you know, this is just a random civilian that's not actually prepared to do this in any kind of formal way. And I do feel like it would be unethical for him to hold Mary fully to that expectation that, okay, you're my soldier now and you're going to do whatever I say.
00:29:25
Speaker
when he doesn't actually have any connection to Theoden besides this brief time that he spent with him, but still it makes him feel bad. One of the other things too is Theoden, Mary asks Theoden, you know, like, why did you bring me into your service? And Theoden basically says to keep you safe. Like it's,
00:29:52
Speaker
On the one hand, there's some like sort of pseudo paternalistic feelings around that. Like, you know, for your safekeeping is literally what he says. But then he ends up releasing Mary from his oath for the same reason. Because it wouldn't be safe to bring Mary into this battle. Because this oath has always been about Mary's safety.
00:30:18
Speaker
One other piece from this section, they talk about the darkness, you know, falling over everything. And I was thinking about this today, especially because we had the sort of late summer thunderstorm today.
00:30:33
Speaker
And I was leaving work and it was, you know, still sunny. I could see some dark clouds on the horizon to the point where when I was almost home,
00:30:49
Speaker
It basically felt like midnight or, you know, late twilight anyway, but it was very, very dark. It got very, very dark within the span of about 25 minutes. And then this was, you know, before the sky completely opened up. But Mary at one point says that like, he can't see any clouds in the sky.
00:31:18
Speaker
And so clearly this is something you know like the thunderstorm this afternoon where there's there's so many clouds that you can't really discern individual clouds. It's just blanketing the entire sky rather than Sauron like blotting out the sun like an eclipse. I think he's just yeah creating essentially a nuclear winter Yeah. And it's working. It's making everyone fucking miserable. I mean, that's seasonal depression, baby. Yeah. So under this dark gloominess, the company departs basically in silence.
00:32:07
Speaker
And that is contrasted with my understanding could be wrong, but from what it seems like to me, the song that we get is the song that will later be written about this moment.
Departure in Gloom and Future Songs
00:32:23
Speaker
they didn't really I didn't really have any specific takes on the song, but On down the gray road, they went beside the snowborn, rushing on its stones through the hamlets of Underharrow and Uphorn, where many sad faces of women, oh, women, looked out from dark doors. And so without horn or harp or music of men's voices, the great ride into the east began with which the songs of Rohan were busy for many long lives of men thereafter." Yeah. So the songs of Rohan were busy for many long lives of men thereafter.
00:32:57
Speaker
bit Far in the future, they would sing about this moment, but there are no songs now. Right now, it's just silent. Right. um which is i I had not noticed that. I had sort of interpreted this as being sung as they're going off, but that makes sense, especially when I look at some of the lyrics in the song itself. so Five Nights and Days, East and Onward, Road, the Erlingos.
00:33:25
Speaker
I was thinking about it mostly because when I was listening to it, I was thinking when was the last time we had a song? It's been a while. And it has been a while. There are only two songs or poems in all of book four. One of them is Gollum's Wish for a Fish, So Juicy Sweet. And the other is Sam's poem about the elephant. That's it.
00:33:53
Speaker
Other than that, we have to go all the way back to um the March of the Ents. Yeah. Compare that to the first half of Fellowship, where they're singing road songs constantly. Everyone's just having a great time. Yeah, even though they know they're setting off on a dark journey, they're still having all sorts of songs and we meet Tom Bombadil who's just singing about the world and his love for Goldberry and now we are in such a dark place that even the power of song even music as magic can't do much for us. Yeah the last couple of lines of this song
00:34:41
Speaker
Doom drove them on, darkness took them, horse and horsemen, hoofbeats afar sank into silence, so the songs tell us." Yeah, it's creepy, it's ominous. And speaking of creepy and ominous, after Mary and Theoden have that conversation that is basically what you just talked about, about not creating more hazards for people in a rescue situation,
00:35:06
Speaker
Theoden is making some very good points about how he can't have Mary being a burden to his soldiers. And if he goes and dies in obscurity, there's not going to be anyone to remember him. yeah There's no benefit to Mary coming to this battle. So Mary's really down about that. And a rider comes and whispers into Mary's ear. And hey, little mama, let me whisper to you.
00:35:37
Speaker
ah Yeah, and that's exactly what's on the page of the book. That's crazy. The Tolkien predicted that. No. there Where Will wants not, away opens, so we say. Which is very cryptic, and this person's name is Durnhelm, and he's very ominous, and I don't trust him far with him. I can throw him, but I could probably throw him pretty far because they make a big deal out of how thin and small he is compared to the other writers and I hope that there's more explanation about that because this is all just creepy and I don't like it. One of the interesting things, or there's a couple of interesting things. Dernhelm means hidden protector in Old English. Oh, that's nice. Maybe he's a protector and I maybe judged him too harshly. Well, and the, um, we also get a name for Dernhelm's horse, Windfola.
00:36:36
Speaker
Oh, we get names for so many fucking horses in these chapters. I didn't write them all down, but I did write down a little bit of horse name pettiness later. But yes, Horse Girl Tolkien continues to tell us all about every pretty pony and what their name is. And I love that. And all their cutie marks.
00:36:56
Speaker
a I'm just imagining because these are war horses. One horse's cutie mark is like a decapitated head. And another one is like a river of blood and another one's like a maze.
00:37:14
Speaker
There's special talents. Man, if I could draw art. Just Google edgy my little pony. Wait, now I just need to see what happens. Don't Google my edgy My Little Pony. I was on Tumblr dot.com when My Little Pony Friendship is Magic was coming out. I have seen it all.
00:37:38
Speaker
The results for edgy My Little Pony are very good. I'm going to go read some grimdark fanfics later. I'm going to go read cupcakes if you know you know. Anyway.
00:37:52
Speaker
Well, Durnhelm bears Merry before him and they head for Gondor. All the lands were gray and still and ever the shadow deepened before them and hope waned in every heart. Shit's bad, y'all. Got anything else for this chapter before we do Siege of Gondor?
00:38:18
Speaker
No, just that for our Instagram post, we need to have an edgy little pony in the slides. Yeah, see, yes, I know. I don't know how to make that one work, but I'll do it. I can just Google it. Somebody somewhere will have some images we can steal. Anyway, the next chapter, chapter four, the siege of con fuck, not Condor, not the bird.
Denethor and Pippin's Grim Conversation
00:38:45
Speaker
No, keep that one in. That's funny. ah Fine. Just again, proof that the show is not made by AI. It's just made by two tired gay people. We are theoretically intelligence, but we're definitely not artificial. e So the siege of Gondor, very serious and serious business. Back to Pippin and Gandalf. They wake up around 2 a.m.
00:39:11
Speaker
Gandalf is being very serious and wizardly telling Pippin to time to get up and make yourself presentable. You are summoned by the Lord of the city to learn your new duties. And will he provide breakfast? Very important. There's, Merry has another similar thing in the last chapter where he's having all of these existential fears. And then Merry remembered that he was very hungry because they are still hobbits and they cannot change their nature.
00:39:40
Speaker
We're back to, like, Gandalf being kind of a dick, this chapter. Yeah, Gandalf has a really intense presence. This is a very Gandalf-heavy chapter, and I can kind of forgive him for being a dick, because, like, the fate of the world and stuff is at stake, but he's doing a lot. He's kind of rude to Pippin about the breakfast thing. He gives him some food, which is grossly inadequate, but it's something.
00:40:10
Speaker
But instead of being compassionate or nice about it, especially because he knows how important food is to Havas, he just makes flippant remarks about how you get what you get, shut the fuck up. And that's not necessary. Yeah. But they go to see Denethor. And Denethor asks Pippin if he can sing. Well, first he asks Pippin what he's useful for, saying, again, parallel to Mary and wondering what his purpose is, saying, okay, I've accepted you into my service. Now what the fuck can you do? And Pippin says that he was hoping Denethor would tell him his duties and Denethor retorts rightly that he doesn't know what any of Pippin's skills are, so he can't exactly tell him what to do if he's got nothing to work with. He hired without a resume.
00:41:03
Speaker
yeah Boomers giving you job advice be like, why don't you just call Taylor up? Just call Denethora up. Just hit the bricks. Anyway, ah yes, he does ask if Pippin can sing. And Pippin can, but feels weird about it.
00:41:26
Speaker
Yeah, I wrote down a quote. He says, well, yes, well enough for my own people, but we have no songs fit for great halls and evil times, Lord. We seldom sing of anything more terrible than wind or rain. And most of my songs are about things that make us laugh or about food and drink, of course, which is a great little insight into Hobbit culture, first of all.
00:41:47
Speaker
And second of all, Denethor says that would kind of be just the thing to lighten the mood right now. And that maybe dark times are the best times for simple songs that can make us think of happier times. But Pippin still feels really weird about it. And luckily he is spared from having to actually sing on the spot. Yes.
00:42:12
Speaker
um He's spared by getting sent to get armed and armored. Again, a ah merry parallel here. He feels a little bit weird about it. Yeah, he feels very silly and that reminds me of Bilbo in The Hobbit when he gets the Mithril shirt in Smog's lair and he feels very stupid because Pippin has a pretty impressive set of armor from what it's described. It's everything. I mean,
00:42:41
Speaker
Mary just got a couple of things, barely enough, functional, fine, but Pippin is like all dressed up and he's got the helmet with the wings on it and everything and the cool embroidery, but it feels wrong. It feels weird. And he goes to talk to Baragond again. Yeah, who's still alive for now. Love, Baragond. Good night. And as they're talking, they get a mass fear spell cast on them. Yeah.
00:43:10
Speaker
There's a terrible sound. They're frozen in place. And there's not one, but five black riders flying below them. Five of nine. There's another trumpet moment. So there's the black writers are making this horrible screech that is you know freezing everyone in place in fear, like we said.
00:43:33
Speaker
Another long screech rose and fell, and he, he being Pippin, threw himself back again from the wall, panting like a hunted animal. Faint and seemingly remote through that shuddering cry, he heard winding up from below the sound of a trumpet ending on a long high note.
00:43:49
Speaker
It's Faramir, the sound of hope, the trumpet is blowing, and it's cutting through the fear and
Faramir's Return and Battle Chaos
00:43:58
Speaker
the darkness. and bu um this This is a trumpet question that I had for you. There seems to be a lot of very adequate trumpet players in all of these militaries. Is that realistic? Let's talk about bugles. Yes, please.
00:44:17
Speaker
So ah the the bugle, which has been used in like one form or another for probably thousands of years, you know, from hollowed out horns all the way up to brass bugles is you know often used for military signaling or was used for military signaling.
00:44:39
Speaker
prior to the advent of radio, you needed a way to send signals up and down a line of battle to tell people to make certain maneuvers. And a bugle was great for that. It's it's loud. It's a sharp sound. It doesn't sound like anything else on a battlefield.
00:45:04
Speaker
A bugle is a trumpet with out without the valves. So a typical trump modern trumpet has three valves, four if it's a piccolo trumpet. And a bugle doesn't have any. um For folks who are not familiar with brass instruments, you might think that that means it can only play one note. That is not true. Brass instruments are heavily dependent on the shape of your mouth, your embouchure and the speed of your airstream. And so with one configuration of the valves, you can play many different notes. If I, I'm not going to play right now because it is late enough that that would be rude to my neighbors. Um, for our listeners, I'm holding my trumpet right now.
00:46:02
Speaker
But with open valves, I could play a C below the staff. I could play a G midline. I could play an E top space. I could play a G top line. I could play a C above the staff, and then I could play pretty much everything above that. And if I'm good at what I'm doing, I can probably end up playing some other notes in there too. I just have to adjust my Airstream a little bit.
00:46:31
Speaker
But what that does is means that you can play several different patterns of notes without changing valves. So a bugle can play all of those open notes just fine. I've played various bugle calls. The you know ones that a lot of folks know are revelry.
00:46:58
Speaker
And taps.
00:47:06
Speaker
And if you watch like the Kentucky Derby, you've heard... I saw a very cute video of a retired racehorse hearing that song and perking up a little bit in the stall like, oh, okay, it's time to go. That's very cute. But your question of, yeah are there just a bunch of talented trumpet players?
00:47:32
Speaker
There is likely people who, you know, were assigned to learn to be signalers. Their whole job is to make sure people are aware of the orders and make sure that signals are passed back and forth. And also, you know, if we think about population, I don't know necessarily how many people are currently within the White City. But if we think about my high school,
00:48:02
Speaker
which was graduating class was like 280 roughly. And the total population of the school was in the 1200 ish range. And there was in my year, one, two, three, four, like six or seven trumpet players in my year, you know, across the school, there's more and other brass players like,
00:48:30
Speaker
I can play trombone. I'm not good at it, but I can play trombone because the embouchure's not the same, but similar enough. So that's the very long-winded answer to your question of, yeah, there are probably plenty of not necessarily talented trumpet players, but good enough to play a couple of series of notes. um And also if Gondor is famous for the horn that Boromir carried and you know, perhaps other people carry horns as well. That probably uses a similar embouchure as well. So you probably get more people who can blow a note. Yeah. That makes sense. And I wanted a long winded answer, which is why I asked the question. So thank you. A long winded answer with all of my trumpet aided air.
00:49:31
Speaker
It is, and also for the people listening at home who maybe have never played trumpet, Rin is making it sound... really attainable, not easy, but straightforward. You let me try making a sound on your trumpet that one time. And I did it, but it was hard. And I feel like if you haven't tried it, it's really hard to envision how specifically you have to move your mouth. And it's not just it's not like a piano where the instrument makes sounds for you. You make all the sounds. It's really wild. But anyway, it's a fun one. I i like playing it.
00:50:08
Speaker
It's very impressive. I think it's really cool, but we must move on. So, Faramir's there. That's great. There's a fucking shooting star appearing on the battlefields and it's Gandalf, baby, because he has to make a very dramatic entrance.
00:50:27
Speaker
So he's there and he shows up and casts guiding bolt on these motherfuckers. And Pippin is cheering from the stands. And as I'm having this thought, the book literally says, he shouted wildly like an onlooker at a great race, urging on a runner who is far beyond encouragement. Theramir and five of his men are fucking booking it from these writers and the men are, you know, their horses are losing it with fear. But it notes that Faramir can master both beasts and men, which is another one of these sort of more like casual magic moments. And this will come up again later in the chapter two, where ah the Prince of Dol Amroth also seems to have this ability.
00:51:20
Speaker
where they sort of have this aura that either blocks or counteracts some of that fear. Yeah. And Bergand is narrating this also kind of like a sports announcer. And that I feel like is done so skillfully because you we have so many battle scenes where we are not directly in the battle. Our characters are observing the battle.
00:51:50
Speaker
and Faramir, the Lord Faramir, it is his call, brave heart. But how can he win to the gate if these foul hellhocks have other weapons than fear? But look, they hold on. They will make the gate? No, the horses are running mad. Look, the men are thrown, they're running on foot. No, one is still up, but he rides back with the others. That will be the captain. He can master both beasts and men. Ah, there, one of the foul things is stooping on him. Help, help, will no one go out to him? Faramir! Yes, exactly. And,
00:52:19
Speaker
I mean, first of all, that was lovely. Thanks. Very happy. Thank you. Second of all, that degree of separation also adds to sort of the feeling of desperation and helplessness because we're not immediately in it. All you can do is observe and we're observing them observe. And so we're just stuck here trying to read as fast as possible to see what happens. There's a lot of good drama and good tension And I have gone on record saying that I tend to zone out during battles and fight scenes, but this was very engaging. There's a lot of fight scenes here. And this is the beginning of, again, a lot of this chapter, I feel like pieces of it going by very quickly and in kind of a confusing fashion of like, you think the enemy is here and then they're attacking over here and then something else is happening and then something else is on fire.
00:53:13
Speaker
And Gandalf is literally teleporting, and that doesn't help. It does help tremendously, but it in terms of the confusion of it all. He's not literally teleporting, is he? He's just he's just getting around in in his Gandalf fashion. Extremely fast. When he enters the battlefield that first time, it's a white and silver flash, like a small star down on the dusky fields. It moved with the speed of an arrow and grew as it came.
00:53:41
Speaker
So he's like a tiny point grow. I don't know if that's a matter of perspective or if he's literally tiny and growing. He's going very fast, very magical fast. Yeah, be that's fair. We noted in our Helm's Deep episode that it it felt really confusing because like, and I feel like that was intentional on the part of Tolkien because battle's confusing. um And I think coming to this chapter,
00:54:11
Speaker
where it has almost an identical feel. I think we we can really see like this is an intentional choice on his part. So, Faramir and Gandalf make it back, but no one else does. Yeah. You did have a comment here on Faramir and Gandalf's return.
00:54:33
Speaker
Yes, I had written down Pippin admiring a Faramir as he comes in. Here was one with an air of high nobility, such as Aragorn at times revealed. Less high perhaps, yet also less incalculable and remote.
Denethor's Preference for Boromir
00:54:47
Speaker
One of the kings of men born into a later time, but touched with the wisdom and sadness of the elder race. He knew now why Baragon spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow even under the shadow of the Black Wings.
00:55:02
Speaker
And I just thought that it was cool and dramatic and a nice depiction of Faramir. I was also just getting little tiny baby crush energy of like, oh, my God, he's so cool. I would follow him into battle. He's so handsome and great and powerful. It's it's too serious of a moment to be that lighthearted about it. But there was just a little bit of that star struck vibe that I enjoyed.
00:55:31
Speaker
Baragond will end up being more starstruck later in the chapter too, but this feels like a good time ah to mention my theory that Baragond and Faramir have definitely fucked. I love this theory. Tell me more. ah it's It's just every time Faramir comes up in conversation or peripheral vision or even remotely in an adjacent topic. Baragand will like gush his praises or be like, is he okay? Where is he? Like everything fine. Like this is a man who had one magical night with him and Faramir
00:56:17
Speaker
was like, yeah, that was fun. And Baragon's entire life was changed. Oh my goodness. I love it. There was also another little moment that was a little bit silly. So I had mentioned you know before with the whole pretty pony talk that all of these fucking horses have a name. They're coming back with their horses. They dismounted. And as Grooms took Shadowfax and the other horse, dot, dot, dot,
00:56:43
Speaker
How come Faramir's horse doesn't get a name when all the other horses, it's Shadowfax and the other one, fuck the other one, because it's not Shadowfax, only Shadowfax matters. it's Was this written by Shadowfax? Who's to say? But Shadowfax blesses other horses that go by him, so I feel like he he'd sing the praises of another horse. Yeah, it's one of his toxic fans, I don't know, but it was very funny to me. After Tolkien going to such great lengths to make sure We knew the names of every goddamn horse. This one, who cares? Fuck it. But so we go from that to everyone going to meet with Denethor and Fairmere telling him about or telling Denethor and everybody else about his encounter with Frodo, Sam, and Gollum. And and get it off exactly as they're. Yeah, as they're doing this, there's a line here Pippin hardly noticed stood behind the chair of Denethor.
00:57:44
Speaker
And I just want to note that because again, I'll have a little bit of a comparative rant at the end of about service and servants. Anyway. All right. I'm ready for that. Yeah. So while this is happening and they're getting up to speed.
00:58:00
Speaker
Gandalf is acting super weird. He is white knuckle gripping his chair. He is terrified and grilling Faramir about how long ago Frodo and Sam left and how far they might have gotten. And Denethor and Faramir get into a fight where Denethor accuses Faramir of basically being too loyal to Gandalf and deferring to him too much and withholding things from his own father while he's trusting this random wizard. And I have a quote from when they're talking about Boromir, but did you have anything before that? At one point, Faramir defers to Denethor, and that's what sets Denethor off. It's because Denethor sees it as an insult that like Faramir has been referring to Gandalf this whole time.
00:58:55
Speaker
and only now thinks to look to his father. yeah And I think Denethor sees it as like cursory, as like, you know, breadcrumbing him or something, like, you know, giving him like a pity deferral, or pity deference. We also, like this is sort of our,
00:59:22
Speaker
confirmation from last chapter in Minas Tirith that Denethor and Gandalf hate each other or really get Denethor hates Gandalf and that he's perhaps more unstable than we think and in this whole conversation about Boromir and as it becomes clear they're discussing the ring that we haven't discussed at all so far. So Denethor is smart enough to have figured out that this is about the ring. It also took me a minute to figure that out because it was obvious that they were fighting and there was a lot of tension, but I didn't totally know what they were fighting about. but
01:00:12
Speaker
It's that Denethor knows about the ring, and he is furious that Faramir didn't bring it back to him, and that he let Sam and Frodo go off with the ring instead of insisting that they return to Denethor so he could use it. Yeah. and Well, and he thinks that Boromir would have brought it to him. And I have a quote. Yes. So he's you know comparing it to Boromir and saying, well, Boromir wouldn't have done this shit.
01:00:39
Speaker
Do you wish then, said Faramir, that our places had been exchanged? Yes, I wish that indeed, said Denethor, for Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift." So, yeah, in all of this high-stakes conversation, also saying, yeah, I wish you were dead and your brother was alive, that's a low blow, even from a grieving father. Uh-huh. Yeah, that one's, that's rough.
01:01:10
Speaker
But also, you know, now we see, one, Denethor is smart as fuck. So he's he's figured out that this is all about the ring. He is also corrupted by it, even though it has never been in his presence. So now we see the sheer power of the ring, that even the idea of it is a corrupting influence, right?
01:01:40
Speaker
which brings into perspective some of his hatred for Gandalf. Because like Sauron and Saruman before him, he see he thinks Gandalf is seeking power because he is seeking power of the power of the ring. Right. And as we noted earlier, they can't conceive of a world in which everyone else is not also scrabbling for power.
01:02:09
Speaker
And so the idea that Gandalf is there as an advisor simply to save the city of Minas Tirith is completely inconceivable. The only reason Gandalf would come to help Minas Tirith in the mind of Danothor is to take it for himself.
01:02:31
Speaker
Yeah. And they are literally yelling at each other. It is getting spicy in here. And he's just, Denethor is just flinging accusations at everybody. And Gandalf just straight up says that he doesn't trust him. And says, of course I wouldn't have advised that he bring the ring to you.
01:02:54
Speaker
And if I thought that I could trust you, I wrote down a long quote, but I'll just paraphrase it. If I thought that I could trust you, I would have just sent you the fucking ring. But now hearing you talk like this, I trust you even less than I did before because I don't even trust myself in this situation. I have been offered the ring freely as a gift and I turned it down because I knew I couldn't handle it. So why do you think you would be able to handle it because you're so fucking obsessed with it. You can't resist its power. You are proving my point, Denethor, that this is not a good idea. It's a gift. A gift to the foes of Mordor. um I'm excited that we're getting ever closer to the movies.
01:03:40
Speaker
um
01:03:42
Speaker
Because Sean Bean, man. We're going to have to make so many good snacks. There will be many planning. But there's a point here where Denethor says, like, he doesn't want to use it. He wants to hide it. Unless, unless at the uttermost end of need, saved by a victory so final that what then befell would not trouble us being dead. The justification of using the ultimate weapon, this mutually assured destruction,
01:04:21
Speaker
is what he's hoping for. Or as a last ditch result to try and perhaps avoid total destruction, which will then result in mutual destruction.
01:04:35
Speaker
And unfortunately, you can't tell me that in a world where both the US and the Soviet Union openly have nuclear weapons and are holding them over each other's heads in the early 1950s, that this was not something that was sitting in Tolkien's mind. Again, applicability.
01:05:01
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, the orcs literally dig trenches later. It's, there's a lot of pretty clear comparisons, although the ring is obviously much more poetic and serious, but yeah, the applicability is there. It is applying.
01:05:19
Speaker
There's some more discussion um and they end up you know breaking for yeah ah an evening. But Denethor is looking potentially to send Faramir to Osgiliath, which is pretty obviously a suicide mission. Because as they discuss the next morning, Osgiliath is the best place to cross the river.
01:05:46
Speaker
the enemy could theoretically try and cross at Caer Andros, which is a big island in the center of the river to the north. But that's supposedly well-fortified and manned by Gondorian soldiers. And north of Caer Andros is where the marshes, the dead marshes and the wet wang are. And it's too wide to the south, so Osgiliath is the best place to cross.
01:06:10
Speaker
And so Denethor sending Faramir on a suicide mission to buy time at Osgiliath is him clearing house of lieutenants that aren't fully loyal to him.
01:06:26
Speaker
you know, thinking his son is still more loyal to Gandalf. He's Project 2025ing the armies of Gondor here in... How dare you speak that name in this house. ah Listen, I thought it was funny. um It was clever. I'll give you that. Thank you. And Faramir fucking knows it. And he takes it in stride. He really does not...
01:06:55
Speaker
stoop to his father's level at any point in all of this. He keeps a really level head, which must be incredibly difficult. But everyone after Denethor makes this suggestion, the room is literally silent and Faramir basically goes, if you ask me to do it, I'll do it. And then Denethor is kind of petulantly says, yeah, I do say you have to do it. I have a quote. Yes.
01:07:23
Speaker
Then farewell, said Faramir. But if I should return, think better of me. That depends on the manner of your return, said Denethor. Which is such some with your shield or on it type bullshit. I don't know what that's a reference to. That is a reference to a quote sort of purported to ancient Sparta.
01:07:48
Speaker
the idea of the Spartan phalanx, where your shield was part of defense for not just yourself, but for the man next to you. And by defending the man next to you, he then could defend him, the man next to him. And so you defend the whole line. isn And so the idea is, you know, if you lose your shield,
01:08:18
Speaker
you have endangered the entire line of soldiers. You have endangered your entire squad. And so the idea is come back with your shield or come back dead because those are the only two results that are worthwhile.
Contrasting Leadership: Denethor vs Theoden
01:08:35
Speaker
Either you fall defending your fellow soldiers or you come back alive having defended them.
01:08:45
Speaker
And Gandalf is the last person to speak to Faramir before he leaves and basically says to not take what his father said to literally, do not throw your life away rashly or in bitterness. He said, you'll be needed here for things other than war. Your father loves you, Faramir, and will remember it ere the end. Farewell. And that's some foreshadowing, but that those were some wise words from Gandalf.
01:09:14
Speaker
He is a member of the Wise, capital W. ah But Gandalf is going to East Osgiliath. And now we're we're firmly in battle at this point. We have the armies coming in. They take the wall. um They cross the river.
01:09:39
Speaker
Gandalf returns saying, you know, Faramir was still alive when I left, but, uh, like, I don't know how that long that's going to last. This is getting bad y'all. Um, and this is within like six paragraphs. Yeah. Um, again, hard, fast, confusing, dark. This is not a glorious battle. This is a tooth and nail fight for survival backed into a corner.
01:10:05
Speaker
And they are talking about the Witch King of Angmar, who we've discussed many times. And there is a line that I think there are some little pieces of cultural knowledge that maybe I am putting together here. But they're talking about him and how he's so evil and powerful and unkillable. Not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the wise is the doom that awaits him.
01:10:28
Speaker
So the two things that immediately brings to mind are, you know, hidden from the wise is the doom that awaits him, Gandalf being the wise, he doesn't know how they're gonna kill him. It'll be a big surprise later. But the not by the hand of men shall he fall. I think this is who Eowyn's gonna kill. I think that's the I am no man awesome helmet removing moment. I was really, really, really hoping that would happen in this chapter and it didn't. Maybe it's the next one. You don't have to tell me if I'm right, but i I think that's going to be it. I think that's the fucking thing. Really want to believe that she's going to kill this guy because we've already seen her be all cool and powerful and her armor with her sword and soon not by the hand of man. to be a man.
01:11:16
Speaker
I was I was interested, you know, the because of the way we think about gender in these books and the and the way that we refer to men in these books as being you know humans. Yeah. So I'm interested, you know, it's like is Gandalf a man? What is what is a man that can kill the witch king? Is it just human men? Is it you know can hobbits kill the witch king? Can is the fact that Gandalf is appearing as a mire with theoretically in possession of a dick and Big Naturals also banned. oh yeah I mean, Gandalf specifically seems to be excluded from, ah it's not really a prophecy. It's just kind of a poetic fact about him, but yeah.
01:12:17
Speaker
When they're questioning like who's leading the army, Pippin asks if it's Sauron himself. And Denethor says, you know nay, not yet, Master Peregrin. He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is one. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords if they're wise, Master Halfling.
01:12:43
Speaker
Or why should I sit here in my tower and think and watch and wait, spending even my sons? And I thought this was interesting for us to see how Denethor is viewing himself, thinking that like he's important enough for Sauron to come vanquish personally, even though he's not at the line of Isildur, he's not the king of Gondor, and thinking of himself as wise. Yeah. you i I use others as my weapons, even my own sons, because that's the wise thing to do. I don't lead from the front, which is such an interesting contrast with Theoden, who, when Hurgan brings the red arrow to Theoden, Theoden goes, okay, right, and tell Denethor that the Lord of the Mark himself will be there
01:13:41
Speaker
even if I don't ride home ever again. Yeah. And what that makes me think of, especially when he's saying, you know, I'm sacrificing my own sons, being the good Christian girls that we are, my brain immediately goes, for God so loved the world that he gave his son that whosoever believed in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. thatda And this like,
01:14:04
Speaker
Christian idea that your children are yours to give away and to sacrifice and that that is a good thing and an admirable thing. Like there's some kind of possession that it's noble of you to give up. Like, I sacrificed my son. I sent my own sons into battle.
01:14:28
Speaker
You don't own them. They're people and you know, we can tie this maybe into I know that you have impending thoughts about servants and servitude that I'm excited to hear but I Understand what he's saying. I get the point that he's making that You know, he is experiencing loss. He is still making sacrifices. He's making difficult choices in his capacity as a ruler, but it still is just a weird way to think about your kids. It's weird. And I don't have more than that. it's It is distinctly strange. Again, just such an interesting comparison to Theoden, who back in Two Towers was saying that like he is he does feel responsible
01:15:25
Speaker
for the deaths of all of the men who he has commanded to go out and fight. And that if he is not personally riding at their head, he feels doubly responsible for their death. He feels that like he can't order them into battle if he's not willing to be there himself. And Aragorn is this same type of leader who is leading from the front. Are they not wise leaders because they're doing that?
01:15:56
Speaker
You know, in Denethor's eyes, probably not. Right? it Would Denethor think of Faramir as a better leader if, yeah, he sends him to Osgiliath, but then Faramir sits up in a tower in Osgiliath and moves his people around like pieces on a board and then flees when the fighting gets rough? I don't know. Yeah.
01:16:23
Speaker
And not that we're saying that you have to be willing to go out onto a battlefield to be a good leader, but, you know, the idea of putting your money where your mouth is and not thinking of yourself as inherently above the things that you're asking other people to do, I think is a good standard for any leader to not ask other people to do something you wouldn't be willing to do yourself if you would, you know, otherwise be capable of it.
01:16:53
Speaker
Yeah, no, i I am fully saying that sending somebody to die, if you would not actually do that yourself would be is is unethical at best. Well, I just mean that there are, you know, if we're talking about military leadership, yes, but just in general in the world, there are plenty of people who can be fine leaders and leadership does not always have to be about killing and dying in wars. No, God, no, absolutely not.
01:17:22
Speaker
No, but i ah we're in full agreement on the military point, yes. there's ah There's a song by the band Dispatch, the general, which is about a general. He ah generally wakes up at after ah a night before the great battle, and he tolds tells all of his men to go home. He says, you know like this this fight's not worth fighting. i'll I'll do it myself. Yeah. Go live.
01:17:53
Speaker
But anyway, Denethor and Gandalf through like this whole exchange here, Denethor seems to know everything that Gandalf tells him ahead of time. Again, with this sort of clairvoyance, this far-seeing ability perhaps that he has. But anyway, speaking of the men out of Osgiliath, they're fleeing back to the city and they are getting slaughtered on their way back.
01:18:23
Speaker
And Denethor agrees to release a heavy cavalry charge. And Gandalf goes out with the Prince of Dol Amroth and the heavy cavalry to break the lines of orcs to allow some survivors back. And Faramir is brought back as a body. And in these initial paragraphs, it's sort of not clear if he's alive or not.
01:18:52
Speaker
And it it very much becomes clear that he is straddling that line of life and death. He is clinging on to life, but barely. Yeah. And Denethor is very affected by this. And there's a line that maybe, I don't know if this gets explained later, or if you can help me unpack. So this is Denethor's reaction to seeing the state that Faramir's in.
01:19:17
Speaker
He himself, he being Denethor, went up alone into the secret room under the summit of the tower, and many who looked up thi- thither is a hard word, but he himself went up alone into the secret room under the summit of the tower, and many who looked up thither at that time saw a pale light that gleamed and flickered from the narrow windows for a while, and then flashed and went out.
01:19:40
Speaker
And when Denethor descended again, he went to Faramir and sat beside him without speaking. But the face of the Lord was gray, more death-like than his sons." So what the fuck did he just do in his secret room with glowy lights? Do we get answers about that? What do you think he did in that room? What sort of powers have we seen of far-seeing that drain their users and corrupt their users?
01:20:09
Speaker
to form specific magical items perhaps that grant these powers. Does he have a fucking palantir up there?
01:20:21
Speaker
did and What did he see? Did he see Faramir dying and confirm that he's on his way out? I don't i don't know. Whatever he did was obviously something very desperate and uncharacteristic, but yeah he whatever he saw, it wasn't good. While Faramir's brought in, the enemy outside has now completely surrounded the city. There is no escape, and they set up siege engines and start lobbing shit over the walls.
01:21:01
Speaker
including you know these projectiles that by some secret art burst into flame as they came toppling down. And again, a connection back to our Helm's Deep episode, these explosive technologies, these incendiary devices that Saruman put into the world, here they are again. We mentioned the idea of new technologies coming into war and then, you know, not being able to remove them again, that's that's what's happening here. In addition to the incendiaries, orcs also lob over the defaced and beheaded heads of their comrades that died at Osgilia.
01:21:53
Speaker
I missed that somehow. That's fucking horrible. Yeah, this is a war crime. Yeah, Jesus Christ. That's upsetting profoundly. This is all happening. The Nazgul are circling like vultures because of course they are. Denethor has lost all hope and he's crying about losing a second son so soon after the first and staying by Faramir's side and basically leaving Gandalf in charge of defending the city. And Gandalf is helping. He's doing a good job and his presence helps to sort of stave off the magical dread, but he just can't do it all alone. And not everyone will follow him because he's not their king. He's not their leader. He's just a guy who showed up who now suddenly they have to listen to.
01:22:49
Speaker
Mm hmm. And one of the people end up going to keep people end up continuing to go to Dennethor. And every time people come to Dennethor to tell him, you know, the next circle of the city is fallen. Mm hmm. You know, the first circle is burning men are flying from the walls. Dennethor, every time someone comes to him, Dennethor gives a more. Defeathest answer.
01:23:20
Speaker
Fly, why do the fools fly, said Denethor. Better to burn sooner than late, for burn we must. Go back to your bonfire, and I, I will go now to my pyre, to my pyre, no tomb. For Denethor and Faramir, no tomb. No long, slow sleep of death embalmed. We will burn like heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the west. The west has failed. Go back and burn.
01:23:48
Speaker
I do have some questions about heathen kings and also the religious burial practices of the men of Gondor. Same, same, same. But I kind of don't have like concrete questions to dig into unless you do.
01:24:00
Speaker
No, not really. I just have, there's a line right after that. He fucking scares off the messengers who weren't expecting that type of response. But so the messengers get scared off. Now Denethor stood up and released the fevered hand of Faramir that he had held. He is burning, already burning. He said, sadly, the house of his spirit crumbles. That's fucking rough.
01:24:25
Speaker
And in another Mary and Pippin parallel. Denethor releases Pippin from his service because he's going to die anyway. And he says, Pippin, go die in the way that you prefer because everything sucks and my son's going to die and I'm going to die. And servants help me carry Faramir's bed to the crypt. And here is where in the notes I have sort of my half formed ruminations on service and swearing oaths.
01:24:53
Speaker
and pledging to serve people in different expectations of service.
Service, Loyalty, and Power Dynamics
01:24:58
Speaker
All right, let's hear it. I was thinking about you know Pippin's dedication to serving this man. And this thing came to mind, I saw ages ago, it was a tweet with from some conservative commentator with a shitty AI picture of like, you know, ah who's who of conservative talking heads. There was like, you know, Trump and Andrew Tate and Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson and like, you know, other people that I didn't recognize. They were all around a table and it was like $10 million dollars or the chance to wait this table. And someone had retweeted it with, you know, even in their wildest fucking dreams, they're still just serving these losers. Hmm.
01:25:51
Speaker
And it brought to mind the idea of like the the like the happy servant trope of like brought to mind Sam who in some ways of like these people that are to the elite, completely beneath notice, but that the servants would still somehow die for.
01:26:18
Speaker
that like the servants see them as their life's calling, but the elites don't give a single flying fuck about them. We notice here that Denethor releases Pippin, but not the other servants who are commanded to carry Denethor and Faramir to the pyre.
01:26:44
Speaker
Right? Both Denethor and Sayitin, one of the things that Sayitin says when he releases Mary is like, I had you know bound you to my service for your safekeeping and also to wait on my whims. Or what's, I have the exact quote written down. And also to do as I might bid. They see sort of the,
01:27:12
Speaker
the ability to move people around at their whims as their right. and i But Theoden sees it not just as a right, but as an obligation. I think he's still thinking about the people at the core of it all. Whereas Denethor is not thinking about the the people. He's thinking about power.
01:27:42
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I'm interested you know in the thoughts that we see both of Mary and of Pippin in these chapters because we we learn in back in the beginning of fellowship that like hobbits don't have a king. They don't, hobbits hobbits and authority don't really mix.
01:28:11
Speaker
And so for Mary and Pippin to have sworn their service to these two separate leaders, they are participating much like Frodo and Sam in these old songs that they've grown up with. But I don't necessarily know that this is real to them.
01:28:31
Speaker
Yeah, because they don't have a cultural frame of reference for that type of service. And I'm also thinking now about all of the different types of service that we've been seeing and sort of the complexity and emotional reality of all of these different situations. So Sam and Frodo, for example,
01:28:57
Speaker
There is a real devotion there and there is an emotional reality that Sam loves Frodo. And if Frodo were to just release him from his service, he would be devastated because he has genuine feelings of love and affection for him. And his service really is his life.
01:29:19
Speaker
Whereas Gollum would love to be free of Frodo's service because he has been tricked and trapped and is forced into doing all of these stupid little songs and dances to help them carry the ring. And then you have Merry and Pippin who see their service to the various kings as a way to achieve something meaningful. It's less because they love these kings as people, although Mary obviously does like Theoden. He's fond of him. It's really more about what they can achieve by being put in a position where they're able to do something. And so while we're very rightly criticizing the system that allows kings to move people around like pawns,
01:30:12
Speaker
It's also interesting to look at the various motivations and agency of the people in that service role. And then, you know, like you said, there's all of these other nameless servants who don't get released, which it seems like it would be nice to say, well, we're all going to fucking die. So all the servants go do whatever you want. But I think also that speaks to Theoden and Denethor understanding that the service that Mary and Pippin are providing to them is not the same as what they would expect from their normal citizens. And that because it's not as real to them, it's not as big of a deal to just say, eh, whatever, leave. You're not really a part of this society in a real way. So whether or not you are formally bound to me doesn't really matter.
01:31:08
Speaker
This also has me thinking about like bringing it way back to the beginning of our conversation about cults and abusive relationships and those power dynamics and realities there. It's fucking complicated. Yeah. Half formed thoughts about swearing oaths and carrying out service to another person as if, yeah, the only way my brain holds that is acceptable.
01:31:35
Speaker
is is with a safe word involved. um There has to be a way out.
Denethor's Despair and Death Plan
01:31:41
Speaker
Uh-huh, uh-huh. But anyway, to take it in a real depressing direction off of this, Denethor is fully planning to burn himself and Faramir alive. He commands his servants to get a bunch of wood and pile it around them and soak it in oil and then set them alight.
01:32:04
Speaker
And the setting in which this happens is a really cool setting. There's this big, huge cavernous crypt, and I usually think of crypts as being very small tight spaces because that's what's practical to dig but there's these big vaulted ceilings and all of these platforms with bodies on them and there's an empty platform for Denzur and so he has the servants lay Faramir down on it and then he lays down next to Faramir and they cover him they cover both of them with the same like blanket basically and then he tells them this dramatic plan for his death and Pippin
01:32:44
Speaker
tells the guards to do no such thing because they are both still alive and Gandalf will hopefully come soon and sort this all out. And i yeah, I don't know what's going through those servants' minds if they're prepared to do it, but... Yeah, because the the servants are like, you know, is Gandalf the Lord of Minas Tirith or is Denethor? It's like you are fully willing to kill the Lord of Minas Tirith at his command.
01:33:13
Speaker
Also, what happened to that plot armor? Faramir? Faramir, buddy, you can come back to us. He's not dead yet. We'll see if it's still in place. Who knows? um It's just a little bit flimsy. It's got a boot back up again. They describe this this massive crypt is called the Silent Street because Pippin then goes and finds Beragon and mentions that they're at the Silent Street to which Beragon loses it. He's distraught.
01:33:42
Speaker
Um, again, because he got some amazing D from Faramir the one time and it changed his life. I mean, Faramir has had a lot of practice with his 300 men. So that man knows what he's doing. What's your body? Average minister of body count is 50. Actually just a statistical error. Faramir was fucked. All 300 of his men. The only time we we learn it's called the silent street is in like you know, a Tolkien lore aside moment.
01:34:19
Speaker
Then Pippin, when talking to Baragond, seems to know this is called the Silent Street. So I have to like headcanon that like in this big place with the vaulted ceilings, there's like a street sign embedded in the wall, like on an old European street, you know, blue de silence. French, the most ominous language of all.
01:34:44
Speaker
Yeah. ah and So and Pippin, after Tuck and Beragond, he also is trying to find Gandalf. And there's all kinds of epic war shit happening, but this chapter is so long. My notes are already at six pages. So I didn't have anything specifically noted until Grand. Yeah, no, grant is Grand is the thing.
01:35:11
Speaker
I have seen one TikTok where some people were doing a movie marathon, Lord of the Rings movies, and they were very excited to see Grond and the Grond was very beloved. I don't know if it was just these people or if it's a thing in the fandom that we all get excited about Grond, but it has a name, so that's fun.
01:35:33
Speaker
Grand is supposedly named after the hammer of the underworld of old, by which it means the hammer that Morgoth forged and wielded during the first age. Oh damn. And it's a giant fucking battering ram shaped like a wolf's head with spells of destruction on it. And the fucking witch king of Angmar through his magic and Grand split the gates to find Gandalf standing there.
01:36:03
Speaker
Yes, and he does another you shall not pass type thing. I don't know if you had written down anything he said specifically. Just you cannot enter here, said Gandalf. Go back to the abyss prepared for you. Go back, fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your master. Someone take me to the acting classes that Gandalf has had to do because he's always got a banger line.
01:36:33
Speaker
But the Black Rider speaks in response. yes yes Just fine, cause I always forget that they can talk. Cause I don't think they talk really in the movies. Old fool, this is my hour. Do you not know death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain. And he's got a fucking flaming sword.
01:36:59
Speaker
isn um And so at this point, we're like, oh, we're fucked. Like everything is bad. Everything is terrible. We're all gonna die. This is the end. And then we have the next paragraph, which is the final paragraph of the chapter. We go from, holy shit, we're fucked sideways, seven ways to Sunday, to, oh, there might actually be hope.
Gandalf vs Witch-King Standoff
01:37:29
Speaker
How much did you want to paraphrase it? How much did you want to read? Because these are two very good paragraphs. We don't have to read them in their entirety. I think we can paraphrase a fair amount and then the the like the very last paragraph we can read more of. So we start off with this standoff between Gandalf and the Witch-King and...
01:37:56
Speaker
The tumbleweed goes across the open courtyard. So there's just this silence. And then far away there's a rooster crowing who doesn't know anything about wizardry and war. It's just doing what it always does, welcoming the morning, which is just such a jarring little piece of mundanity.
01:38:22
Speaker
That somehow the world is still turning and the animals have no idea that this is happening and it's so incongruous with the events taking place that it just sort of Upsets your perception of what's happening and and as if an answer There came from far away another note.
01:38:46
Speaker
horn Horns, horns, horns. Great horns of the north, wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last. Let's
Anticipation for Upcoming Battles
01:39:00
Speaker
fucking go. More trumpets. um And air horns this time. waopp up wow Yeah, that was just from the depths of despair.
01:39:15
Speaker
The writers are showing up and it's very exciting and hopefully in the next chapter, Aowin will do a cool murder. But yeah, there was so much tension being built up in these two chapters, in this scene in particular, and to have that start to be released, the Valve has just been slightly tipped open to start letting us decompress a little bit. Oh, it's good. I'm ready.
01:39:42
Speaker
I'm very excited for the next two chapters. It's
Podcast Length and Transition Discussion
01:39:45
Speaker
more on battle. you know this This is the war section of the book. So looking forward looking forward to where this goes from here, but we are drawing very long into this episode.
01:40:05
Speaker
um And it's getting very late. So Sammy, do you have any way, anything you want to do to close this episode out? I think just by general observation, comparing the beginning of this book to the beginning of Fellowship, these are two completely different books. They there are very few similarities, but it all works. And you know we know that it's one continuous story. It's just transitioned so smoothly from where we started to where we are now.
01:40:40
Speaker
and
Podcast Release and Listener Engagement
01:40:41
Speaker
the books are containing all of these very different moods. And I like it, it's working for me. I'm also partially excited to get to the movies because this section of the score is perhaps one of my favorite pieces of film scoring ever. Anyway, we'll talk about that in six months or so.
01:41:08
Speaker
ah But anyway, if you would like to join us for more discussion of Return of the King, you can catch us in two weeks with our next episode. And until then, you can subscribe to our podcast and catch up on our backlog of episodes and get notified as soon as the new one drops. We release every other Tuesday.
01:41:37
Speaker
You can join us on our social media at fanapppod on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, and Tumblr. You can send us your edgy My Little Pony OCs. You can do that at our email, thefandomapprenticeatgmail.com or via our DMs on the various and sundry social media that I mentioned. Instagram is the only one that like that I really update, but you're welcome to follow any of the others too. And maybe someday I'll post something out of the blue and you just have to be following the right one to once you get to get the content, huh? It's the fandom apprentice ARG. You have to be fully immersed.
01:42:24
Speaker
Well, if you want to fully immerse yourself with us um in Faramir and his 300 men,
01:42:36
Speaker
Don't say that in front of Baragon. He'll get jealous. He can come too. It's fine. oh He will. He will. If he survives, I lost the plot. Come
Credits and Acknowledgments
01:42:52
Speaker
follow us ah on social media. Subscribe to the podcast.
01:42:58
Speaker
um Leave us a review or a five star rating if you enjoy what you're hearing. Helps folks find the podcast and spread us via word of mouth to your friends because that at the size of podcast we are is the best way for a podcast like us to spread. And until next time, thanks for listening. See you next time.
01:43:29
Speaker
The Phantom Apprentice is produced and edited by Rin and Sam. Our music was composed and performed by James, and our art is by