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Ep 30- Be Not Afraid
22 Plays4 months ago
A disclaimer- we recorded this right after the election. So we are slightly... less enthusiastic than usual. If you don't want to hear us talking politics, skip to 0:09:16, but if you want to hear about a long furby and how're we're feeling, give our intro a listen! Anyway, we talk about the downfall of Mordor, romance, power imbalance in relationships, and surprise Gandalf! More within!
Covers Book VI Chapter IV: The Field of Cormallen, and Chapter V: The Steward and the King
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Transcript
Introduction and Uncertainties of the New Year
00:00:00
Speaker
Shut the fuck up. I went beeping outside. I didn't realize you were talking to your computer for a second. I was like, oh, okay, damn. No, not you, the person outside honking their fucking horn. Rude. So standard disclaimer, I guess, is we know not what horrors will come to pass by the time that this is out. Because this will be in the new year, right? This will be in the new year, I believe in February. Oh, God, okay.
00:00:30
Speaker
Hi
Post-Election Reflections and Personal Coping Mechanisms
00:00:31
Speaker
friends, we're coming to you live from after the election. If you notice a shift in our energy, that's why, because, oh boy. How you doing, Bestie?
00:00:52
Speaker
I partook of some legal substances and made a long Furby. Her name is Ketchup. She's really giving, be not afraid. but yeah so That's what I did. and There's been a lot of anxiety and crying and wondering why my mood is so shitty and why I'm not sleeping and not eating. I i mean i expected this result.
00:01:29
Speaker
Yeah, i'm i'm I'm not doing great on either of those fronts either. I
Workplace Dynamics and Emotional Outlets
00:01:35
Speaker
had a ah very nice bitch sesh with my therapist, who is also a queer person, and a lovely bitch sesh with a coworker at work. In a very official manner. Well, it was, it's, so we have open cubicles now.
00:01:55
Speaker
Disgusting, by the way. Things got switched around. We used to have closed offices and now we have open cubicles. And so we can't like bitch about things anymore. So we went to one of the little one on one rooms and we have a system and I checked in via the system for a 30 minute one on one meeting. And we had a very official meeting.
00:02:18
Speaker
who in which we just bitched at each other. And my response to that was, this is the most significant meeting that that room will ever host. Almost certainly. Yeah.
Emotional Processing of Current Events
00:02:32
Speaker
So yeah, we're doing, we're doing spectacular here. We're going to keep trying to record our silly little podcast.
00:02:44
Speaker
for something to do. These at least are nice chapters to take our brains somewhere else. Yeah, i'm I'm sorry to like, you know, bring back all of this pain up. But part of the podcast is about us reacting to shit and um we're reacting to shit.
00:03:03
Speaker
So, yeah, that's that's where we're coming from right now. November, early November, 2024. And we're going to spend the next couple of months making sure we have the paperwork and things that we need to flee the country at a moment's notice or keep ourselves safe or any of that fun stuff. And as I said to my therapist, I really hope that like a decade from now, I look back on all of this and go, wow, I was being really paranoid about all of that. It was actually like a shit, but it was fine. But if I may quote Edna Mode of The Incredibles, you may.
00:03:47
Speaker
Luck favours the prepared. Well, I don't know, darling, but luck favours the prepared. Didn't know the baby's powers, so I covered the basics. She's the voice we need in these trying times. She truly
Security Preparedness and Fictional Interventions
00:04:03
Speaker
is. And in these unprecedented know They're precedented. That's the problem. They're very precedented. In these unprecedented times. Oh, I wish, please. If Aragorn, son of Arathorn, wants to just show up and deal with this, he's more than welcome. I'm still holding out hope and maybe Apollo's dodgeball is in my hand right now.
00:04:35
Speaker
that he'll just die before January? Given how careful we are being in using encrypted messaging services to discuss potentially sensitive topics, maybe we shouldn't express our enthusiasm about a potential presidential assassination on the podcast. I'm not saying assassination. I'm saying the man has a heart attack.
00:05:05
Speaker
of Natha is someone's got the death note. They're just animals. He's 78. Yeah. Like time will eventually get him. And I just, I wish him the worst. The fucking same. You know who I don't wish the worst and in fact, wish the best upon? Who? Faramir and Aowin and their future nuptials. Yeah.
00:05:47
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Phantom Apprentice. From NPR News in
Podcast's Focus and Personal Reactions to Politics
00:05:56
Speaker
Washington. What the actual fuck?
00:05:59
Speaker
ah Yeah, I know we have like and I promise we will not spend the entire podcast talking about this. We don't really want to talk about it anymore than y'all do. But. You know, we have our opinions, we have our stances, we are not a electoral politics analysis podcast. We are too dabbled in that in the past. I'm not surprised because you're very smart and you could do whatever you want. But the point of this bit is, you know, I think we will be talking about the state of things as it comes up. But we are also two queer people who are trying to take care of ourselves and our communities. And like you said, get our
00:06:46
Speaker
shit together on a very practical level to make sure that we are safe and okay. so Don't get your political news from us, especially a few months after the fact. Please don't take whatever we do or don't say on this podcast as a reflection of our full nuanced takes and opinions and the things that we care about. Because sometimes you need to take time to hang out with your bestie and talk about Lord of the Rings to keep yourself sane. And, you know, that doesn't mean that this is the only way that we're spending our time.
00:07:19
Speaker
No. I mean, I am also a trans person. You are married to a trans person at a time when the last several months have been just trans folk messaging coming from politicians basically nonstop on both sides of the aisle. Um, there's already been two democratic politicians who have blamed trans people for Harris's loss, Jesus Christ, including a democratic representative from Massachusetts.
00:07:49
Speaker
Hmm. Which we both live in proximity to, which is great fun. Yeah. To Sam's point with all of that,
Literary Analysis of Tolkien's Works
00:08:01
Speaker
we will bring things up as they become relevant. We always applied pieces of this text to our lives and pieces of our lives to this text. That's part of why we do this podcast. I also was having a conversation with somebody in another discord server I'm in.
00:08:18
Speaker
um the other day about allegory versus applicability and what Tolkien says about that and how, you know, there were, as I was reading through this and looking ahead to some of the chapters in the future, it was like, actually, some of this still remains applicable to our modern electoral politics isn and the election the election of Trump and Vance to the White House.
00:08:44
Speaker
the applicability of a story is what allows it to endure. And so the fact that we we can, for better or worse, reference pieces of what's happening today into this text shows you know how much of an enduring tale that it is. yeah But anyway, while we unfortunately are stuck living with the evil, they've defeated the evil.
00:09:14
Speaker
Fuck yeah. So bringing it into, what is the chapter number? Cause I just wrote the chapter title. I didn't write the number. chapter four the field of cormmaon So we are back into the big fight that's happening. So if you remember, we left off last time with the ring having been destroyed and Sam and Frodo fucking facing the end of all things. So we're back at the battle. Aragorn is under his banner. Gandalf is on the hilltop. And Gandalf is the one who shouted, the eagles are coming back when I think it was Pippin heard that before.
00:09:53
Speaker
We're fucking passing out. Yeah. And the Eagles are actually coming, which we were totally led to believe was just a drifting into unconsciousness, strange little dream. But no, the Eagles are coming, which is amazing. And they all appear and the Nazgul turn tail and run, but they're not running because of the Eagles, but that's okay. They're leaving. It's fine. And this is sort of the vibe that we're beginning the chapter with.
00:10:22
Speaker
Yes, I was saying it's it's in my notes, it's really nice that we did not have to wait as long to go back to our other people this time.
00:10:33
Speaker
isnt you know because like I miss them. They're fun. They're fun to be around. I miss, I miss Legolas and Gimli and even Gandy boy here. But yes, the Eagles are coming. The Eagles are coming to save the day once again. And we're introduced to Qu'Hare the Windlord and Landraval, his brother. These fuckers are ancient. Like how ancient?
00:11:01
Speaker
So it said they're the greatest of the descendants of old Thirondor. But with Thirondor, they helped rescue Baron and Luthien, who were imprisoned in Angband during the First Age. Oh shit, okay. So like six to seven thousand years-ish? Sam? Alright.
Character Reflections and Symbolism in Tolkien
00:11:20
Speaker
Also, would you like to guess what Quiher's name means? Does it mean Giant Eagle? No. Close. King Eagle. It means Windlord.
00:11:31
Speaker
my fucking god and so we have windlord the windlord nice all right showing up and i i just want to know who let fucking moon moon rule the eagles these beings out of thousands of years of myths and legends and it's just fucking it's just moon moon yeah love it um lander of all means broad wing just for That's that seems I mean, they're both fine names. It's just the repetition. Yes, really getting me. But anyway, so they're all watching everything crumbling like we talked about Sam and Frodo seeing before.
00:12:12
Speaker
And then I wrote down a quote about what they're perceiving in the big a black cloud of doom. And as the captains gazed south to the land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there was a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning crowned, filling all the sky.
00:12:30
Speaker
enormous it reared above the world and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand terrible but impotent for even as it leaned over them a great wind took it and it was all blown away and passed and then a hush fell so that's I assume is I don't know Sauron's essence spirit presence something sort of showing up and then dissipating it was a very cool image Thinking about that now, I i think of like D and&D vampires who, if you kill them technically, they're they are supposed to dissolve in a mist and go back to their lair to regenerate, unless you hit them with fire, radiant, or sunlight. And so there was the vampire that I set our party against when I was DMing. And was it, was it Thea who'd thrown up daylight or was it Rosemary? Rosemary.
00:13:26
Speaker
So our druid had thrown up daylight. And so of course the mist starts to escape. And then it's just, unfortunately, in the middle of a sphere of daylight or no, no, no, no, because it, he died in the middle of sickening radiance, which like casts sort of a dark pall. So I felt like it was like that was blocking the daylight, but then it went out of the sphere of sickening radiance into the daylight. Like surprise bitch.
00:13:53
Speaker
and just woo away, which was very critical role of us, I guess. there' just Was that a Vox Machina thing? Because I did not deal with the Briarwoods at all. Yeah, there was in the Briarwood arc spoilers for a six year old campaign, I guess, and a three year old animated show.
00:14:18
Speaker
My work brain is just like the campaign is in the first grade and the animated show is in preschool. Honestly, honestly it might be it might even be older than that. When Silas Briarwood, who is a vampire, dies um at the ziggurat under Whitestone, he dissolves into mist and starts to go away. And then I can't remember whether it's Pike or Keyleth. I think it's Keyleth. Just hits him with a bolt of daylight.
00:14:44
Speaker
i think I think she casts like the sixth level sunbeam spell and just hits them with it love it. And just dissolves the fucker. Which is fantastic. And then there's a similar, they adapted that for the animated series as well, which is a very cool scene.
00:15:03
Speaker
But that's that's the vibe I'm getting is like he's trying to flee, but does just doesn't have the energy to do it. And as soon as he's emerging, trying to form some form in the mortal world, he just can't and he just dissolves.
00:15:20
Speaker
he just exists as a bad vibe. So I think it was Gandalf talking about that before, about how he can't ever really totally be gone forever, but he can effectively be rendered impotent. And I think that's what we're seeing. His his sort of latent evil just kind of scattering into the wind.
00:15:44
Speaker
And the armies, speaking of evil scattering, the remaining evil armies scatter. Some take their own lives, some hide, most of them just flee. There are some that had really been in Sauron service the longest who tried to rally for a last battle, but they get wiped out pretty quickly.
00:16:04
Speaker
And Gandalf asks Gwaher to carry him one last time and and basically apologizing for the inconvenience of saying, I'm sorry, man, I keep asking you to do this, but it's just one more time. I promise that I'll stop asking you to carry me. But then he says, I would bear you answered Gwaher, whether you will, even were you made of stone. And it's just nice to see a little moment that I guess they're friends and or they at least have a deep mutual respect. And there was a cute little character moment.
00:16:34
Speaker
One of the things that I noticed about Gandalf's last request. So he's referring to, uh, go here, carrying him twice before once from Orthanc, um, and once from Xerox Agil, which this was interesting to me, the choice of the dwarven name here. Xerox Agil is one of the three peaks above Moria, where Gandalf died and was reborn. It's also called kellab deal in Elvish and silver tine in Westron.
00:17:04
Speaker
And we've noted before that both Gandalf and Galadriel seem to purposefully use Dwarvish, but mostly when they're talking with Gimli because everyone else just kind of defaults to the Cinderan names. Yeah. Or the Western names, if they're talking with the hobbits too.
00:17:21
Speaker
But I thought it was interesting here, the choice of the Dwarven name, um because Gandalf typically does default to the Cinderin names. that I don't really have anything like reading further into this because Gimli's not standing right there. It's interesting. But it it was, yeah, it was just something I picked up on.
00:17:43
Speaker
Yeah. Another thing that I picked up on was just thinking about the Eagles in general. I wonder how Bilbo is doing in this moment. And I really wish that we could see how he's feeling and if he is also sensing the ring's destruction, which he has to be. And I hope he has to be. I hope that we'll see him again for the end of this, because I need to know just what this moment is like for him. But we we don't get to know that right now. But I was thinking about
Reunions and Reflections in Middle-earth
00:18:12
Speaker
it.
00:18:13
Speaker
before we get, before they pick them up um and fly off, Guiher says, the north wind blows, but we shall outfly it. And I thought back to the last time we talked about the north wind in sort of an allegorical sense, or in a little and a literal sense, but that was at Boromir's death.
00:18:34
Speaker
So I was trying to look up like mythology on the North wind in middle earth. I was finding mostly like Greek mythology and finding things about Boreas, but the only other lines that we have in this book are from the lament for Boromir back in two towers from the gate of Kings, the North wind rides and past the roaring falls and clear and cold about the tower. It's loud horn calls.
00:19:02
Speaker
What news from the North, oh mighty wind, do you bring to me to today? What news of Boromir the Bold? For he is long away." um And throughout the previous verses of the lament too, because it starts off west wind, south wind, north wind. And both the west wind and the south wind say that the north wind most likely has news because that's where Boromir was last seen.
00:19:27
Speaker
That doesn't tell us a whole lot about how the north wind was perceived, but i just I just thought it was interesting that we have, again, sort of another reference to the winds in a sort of personified manner.
00:19:42
Speaker
And after that discussion about the wind and here picking Gandalf up to carry him to Mount Doom, we switch back to Sam and Frodo. Frodo in his typical emo fashion, especially now with the quest complete, he is just resigned to his imminent death. But Sam is less so.
00:20:01
Speaker
and Sam insists that if they're going to die, they should at least move a little further away from the thing literally named the crack of doom. And Frodo does indulge him and they sort of scoot a little bit, but there's really nowhere for them to go. They're just kind of waiting to be engulfed by fire.
00:20:22
Speaker
sitting under a rain of hot ash, totally alone. And Sam is holding Frodo's hand and trying to cheer him up, talking about what a great tale they've been in and how he wishes he could hear someone tell the story of nine-fingered Frodo in the Ring of Doom. And while this is happening, Guiher spots them, but not before they collapse. And I have a quote about that, but if you had more things before the quote, by all means.
00:20:50
Speaker
I also think it's fun because Sam references to, like, we'd be a great story, like the tale of Baron One Hand and the Great Jewel. isn' And then Guihere shows up, a character in that story.
00:21:05
Speaker
Oh, shit. Yeah, you're right. And it goes back to Sam and Frodo having that conversation. I want to say it's in A Verbs and Stewed Rabbit. Yes, I think it was. About being part of those same old stories. They've never really left the story. It's just continued on with new characters and they're a part of the same tale. Oh, I love that.
00:21:34
Speaker
and and what here sees the sort of picture is two small dark figures for Lorne hand in hand upon a little hill while the world shook under them and gasped and rivers of fire drew near and even as he espied them and came swooping down he saw them fall worn out or choked with fumes and heat or stricken down by despair at last hiding their eyes from death. So this is Not a great heroic end for them, quote unquote, and obviously the spoilers they live, but they are are just completely. Born down. They have given absolutely everything to the quest and there's nothing left that they can do. And it's just, it's pathetic. It's sad. It reminds you how small they are.
00:22:27
Speaker
and especially the line, hand in hand upon a little hill. I assume literally it's just a small hill at the base of the mountain, but I do kind of like the idea of thinking about Mount Doom as a little hill because we know it's not objectively that big of a mountain and sort of putting the whole thing in perspective, that it's just this one little thing happening in this one place. And it's all consuming to us and it's all consuming to the story, but ultimately, you know, the rest of the world is going to keep going on whether or not Sam and Frodo ever get up again. Well, now I feel really bad about the little joke that I was going to make here, which was... Oh, no! What was your joke? Because that was very deep and insightful and very like... But I was going to say that, like,
00:23:18
Speaker
They're married. i don't I don't care what anyone else says. this is This is marriage. By the power vested in me by the Universal Life Church, I declare them hobbit husbands. ah Hell yeah. i mean i have been I recently got an email congratulating me for my ninth year of service to the Universal Life Church. So I second-stamp validate that, absolutely. If anybody would like us to do their wedding,
00:23:46
Speaker
like I'd be delighted. It's probably best if you're not looking for anything super solemn. No, no. this I will start with, marriage is what brings us together today if you would like me to. But anyway, I mean, speaking of marriage, ahhu they wake up in, is it pronounced ethylian? I haven't had to say it in a while. Ethylian, yeah. Ethylian, yes. So they wake up and it's nice, it's sunny, there's a little breeze and some leaves and Sam thinks that
00:24:23
Speaker
Everything that just happened was a dream, but then sees Frodo laying next to him and his hand on top of the blanket, minus one finger, and realizes that it was all real. And there's so much happening, but the most important thing is they are tucked into the same bed because they're married.
00:24:42
Speaker
Uh-huh. So, I mean, there's two wonderful things here, or a couple of wonderful things here. There's so many, yes. The thing that wakes Sam up, and the first thing that he notices is the scent, isn't the fragrance of a Thylian. Scent memory is
Healing and Future Plans Post-Quest
00:24:59
Speaker
so incredibly powerful.
00:25:02
Speaker
it is It is one of the most powerful forms of memory we have. It's also typically less strong when you're sleeping. And so it makes sense that like when he wakes up, it's it's one of the first things he notices. who He's obviously in bed with Frodo because they're married. ah Frodo is now a member of the Assassin's Brotherhood prior to 1191, because he he's missing his ring finger. Oh, is that a thing?
00:25:26
Speaker
in Assassin's Creed, which I have played many, many of the Assassin's Creed games. I've not played all of them, but most of them. And for our listeners, I have not played them, but you have sent me so many screenshots that I am deeply invested in the stories of the games you have played. So I've basically experienced them. I've gotten them with your commentary, which is even better. it's it's I have sent you screenshots specifically of the ones where you can be a lesbian. And that's beautiful.
00:25:56
Speaker
And that's, I mean, who doesn't want to be a hot Viking warrior or a hot Creek mercenary just fucking their way through England. Listen, some people get pierced with a sword. Other people get pierced with the, the you psychedelic staff. Anyway.
00:26:17
Speaker
Anyway, the other thing is it's it's sort of implied in a few lines that not only are they tucked in bed together, that they are not clothed because their clothes are clean and in the corner and they're not wearing anything else. So they are naked in bed with each other, you know just fully, just dicks out in a thillion.
00:26:41
Speaker
That would be a really good t-shirt. It ticks out. at But, you know, just casual platonic gardener things that everyone just does with their buds. And granted, this is not the first time that they have canonically been naked in the same place, but it's different when they're they're in a bed. Come on. It's right there. It's on the page. What do you want?
00:27:04
Speaker
But slightly ruining the mood is Gandalf just hovering over them. Imagine you're just and he makes fucking kenda and so in bed. In bed naked with your hobbit husband, just enjoying your moment of peace together. You're alive. Everything is okay. And then Gandalf is there.
00:27:27
Speaker
Which they don't know that Gandalf is alive. Oh yeah, surprise.
00:27:34
Speaker
so Surprise Gandalf, extra surprise Gandalf. It's like that meme that's the myth of consensual sex. Isn't there someone you forgot to ask? Surprise Gandalf. It's going to be on the socials for this one. But yeah, he's there. He's asking Sam how he feels. And I have quotes, but I've already read a lot of quotes. Do you want any of the quotes?
00:27:56
Speaker
I don't actually have quotes for this part. That's totally fine. Then I'll just read it. Yes, he's asking Sam how he feels. How do I feel? He cried. Well, I don't know how to say it. I feel, I feel, he waved his arms in the air. I feel like spring after winter and sun on the leaves and like trumpets and harps and all the songs I've ever heard. He stopped and turned towards his master. But how's Mr. Frodo? He said. Isn't it a shame about his poor hand? But I hope he's all right. Otherwise he's had a cruel time.
00:28:24
Speaker
Yes, I am all right, otherwise, said Frodo, sitting up and laughing in his turn. I fell asleep waiting for you, Sam, you sleepyhead. I was awake early this morning, and now it must be nearly noon." So, so much. First of all, joy. Again, we're feeling joy, trumpets and harps and all of the beauty of songs that he's ever heard. Love it. But second of all, Frodo calls Sam a sleepyhead. And again, that is not something that you say to your gardener when you wake up naked in bed with him.
00:28:53
Speaker
if that's just normal gardener things that's that is a term of affection and endearment and it's so sweet and i'm glad that they're just having a nice time for once in this fucking book i feel really strongly about it i'm glad i just spilled water all down my shirt again sam is developing a drinking problem from this book the the problem that i can't fucking get water into my mouth i know i know this This is probably a movie that is far too old for most of our listeners. But have you ever seen Airplane? I have not. I'm aware of it, but I have not watched it. There's a ah a running bit about how the main character developed a drinking problem from his time in the war. What war? It's never really defined. But whenever he references the drinking problem, it's usually he has water and it's just like he just splashes it on his face.
00:29:52
Speaker
rather than drinking from the cup. um So he has a problem drinking, not with alcohol. yeah And ever since then whenever i like ever since watching that movie as a 15-year-old, whenever I spill water on myself, I think about having a drinking problem. The King of Gondor and Lord of the Western Lands would like to see the hobbits.
00:30:18
Speaker
It's not yet defined who the King of Gondor and Lord of the Western Lands is. We know. like Obviously, we know. But the hobbits are kind of like, huh, interesting. What the fuck? Yeah, King, who? All right. That's fine, I guess.
00:30:35
Speaker
Yeah, what king and who is he? Said Sam, the King of Gondor and Lord of the Western Lands, said Gandalf, and he has taken back his ancient realm. They get dressed and they are informed, by the way, it is early April. The ring was destroyed at the end of March. So just for context, because we've been sort of keeping track of time, Frodo left the Shire in September.
00:31:02
Speaker
He
Celebrations and Honors in Gondor
00:31:03
Speaker
arrived in Rivendell a month later in late October. And then he stayed in Rivendell from October to December. And then the party set out December 25th. So it's been not quite four months.
00:31:18
Speaker
Damn, that's not very long. That is a lot of shit to happen in not quite four months. Yeah. Jeez. That's not quite, but like almost the time from us recording this to when this podcast episode will release. Oh my God. It's like three months. I was gonna say we have the nice little note that in Gondor, the new year will always be on March 25th when Sauron fell, which is just a nice little, their calendar has changed forever.
00:31:48
Speaker
And it's fun. And they come across people who bow down to them and cheer them on. And this is presented as a poem or a song in the text, but I think it's sort of just meant to be like the various calls they're hearing because it's both in Western and in Elvish or in Sindarin.
00:32:07
Speaker
And just to translate the various cindering, because we we were presented with long live the halflings, praise them with great praise. And then, koyo ierrian anan aglarni ferrianoff which just means long live the halflings, glory to the halflings. And then we have, do berhel conin and anun eero which is Furto and Sam, princes of the West, glory to them. and The next Elvish bits are, which just means bless them, bless them, long will we praise them, the ring bearers bless them to the heights. Aww.
00:32:53
Speaker
So it's roughly all variations on the same theme. So I think this is just like people shouting out at them as they're passing by. Yeah, it's it's a montage. They come to the clearing eventually where who do they find but Strider? Yeah, looking amazing and majestic on his throne and the hobbits ever unconcerned with authority just run up to go say hi to him.
00:33:20
Speaker
I love that to all the hobbits, because we had this with Pippin last in the last section, I love that he will always just be strider to them. yeah No matter how much of Middle Earth he's ruling, he he's always just going to be strider.
00:33:35
Speaker
Yeah. And Frodo, it's not really clear to me if it's Frodo or Sam who's saying this, but they're basically going, oh my god, it's Strider. Oh no, it's Sam. Because then immediately he responds with, yes, Sam, Strider, said Aragorn. It is a long way. Is it not from Bree, where you did not like the look of me? A long way for us all, but yours has been the darkest road.
00:33:56
Speaker
And I like that even in this moment, he's just giving a little bit of a light ribbing thing now. Now will you tolerate me? Have I proven myself to you, Sam? And Strider, there's there's like thrones carved out of turf here, and Strider puts them on the throne.
00:34:17
Speaker
Yeah, and specifically because there's his big throne and then there's one on either side, but he puts them on his big throne specifically, I think in the text. And I was fucking losing my mind that it was, to there's so many in this chapter and in the next one, really kind and thoughtful gestures that Aragorn does to fully recognize everyone who's helped him get to this point, besides Baragon, we'll fucking talk about because I'm not justice for Veragon, but everyone else, he really goes to great lengths to demonstrate that he did not achieve this alone. And there's also the fucking throne is wonderful. And, you know, calls them to be praised. And a minstrel comes forward to tell the whole story in Elvish and Western for the whole afternoon. isn And it talks about how like the light changes.
00:35:14
Speaker
The title of the story is Frodo of the Nine Fingers and the Ring of Doom. And Sam just loses his mind with delight because this is all he wanted. And I really liked the way that their reaction to this was described in talking about how he was singing until their hearts wounded with sweet words overflowed and their joy was like swords and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness." And I think that's just the perfect way to describe how they must feel in this moment of joy being like swords and the pain and the beauty of it at the same time and not just
00:36:01
Speaker
the pain of reliving their difficult experiences, but the pain of feeling joy, which is a very difficult thing to articulate. I don't think that I could put it into words better than Tolkien does, but I feel like I understood what he was trying to get at there. Right. it's the It's the sort of feeling bad at feeling happiness when so many things around you have been so terrible.
00:36:27
Speaker
and And also just when you haven't felt joy for so long and finally it comes back. that's It's an unfamiliar feeling and there is there is very little line between what is pain and what is pleasure in both physical sensation and in emotional sensations too within the brain. So it's...
00:36:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's really interesting to to see those melded together in in this kind of language here. And then, so after the story is done being told, Frodo and Sam get taken back to another little auxiliary area and they get given some clean clothes and their elven cloak and mithril shirt and sting. And it's also mentioned earlier that Gandalf found the vial of collateral in Sam's little box of earth.
00:37:25
Speaker
which was really wonderful, and I'm glad that that got preserved. And so they're getting all of their stuff back. And Frodo says that he doesn't want to wear a sword anymore, which is understandable, and insists that Sam have it, but then Sam insists back. And was this the bit that you had in commentary? This, I mean, this rankled me a bit. Yeah. But I mean, so first off, Ganov somehow found the Mithril cloak, the Mithril coat and the Lorian cloak, because these were taken by Shagrat.
00:37:56
Speaker
or not Shagrat, by Snaga, and dashed off somewhere into the wastes of Mordor. Gandalf has found them somewhere. But the idea of Frodo not wanting to carry a sword and then being convinced to as if like that's that's some sort of expectation that he must carry this blade, I think Frodo was, I think one, he's perfectly justified in not wanting to carry a tool of violence. I also think him not showing up with a sword makes a really powerful statement of the the cycle of violence, the cycle of pain, the cycle of destruction has been ended by my hand and I will not have any part in taking up the trappings of it ever again. And now also this is, I'm going to put a pin in that too for the next chapter and another character's relationship to the cycle of violence that I was not
00:38:56
Speaker
totally happy with, but they get like silver crowns on their heads and they go to dinner and they see these two like young looking pages serving Amer and Aragorn and it's Perian Mipin and they they promise to you know tell each other stories but they're like well we have we have jobs to do first we'll get to that after dinner And then Frodo and Sam just sit under the fluttering leaves, probably holding hands, definitely holding hands. And they just get to hang out with Merry and Pippin and Legolas and Gimli come to join them. And we find out that Merry and Pippin have grown three inches because they drank the end draft.
00:39:41
Speaker
So I was reading this section. I was listening to the Avatar soundtrack while I was reading this earlier today and was listening to as they're sitting under the tree with the leaves falling down, listening to, um, I think it's into a nighttime sky and I'll we'll put a little clip in here behind. They're sitting and I'm just, as you're saying, imagining the leaves drifting down and the relief that has to be filling all of them at finally being all back together. And that was just a really like wonderful piece of music to underscore that. Yeah. And, you know, Howard Shore does a absolutely spectacular job scoring the films.
00:40:34
Speaker
But I did really enjoy scoring my reading of this with Jeremy Zuckerman. Yeah. Also, it it did say that when they go off to tell stories and catch each other up on everything, first off, it's Mary and Pippin and Frodo and Sam just chilling, just the hobbits. And then eventually Gimli and Legolas show up. After a while, Legolas and Gimli join them because they snuck away to have a quickie after dinner. Of course.
00:41:00
Speaker
Yeah, obviously, like that's that's the only explanation here. It's, you know, on the one hand, they're obviously extremely happy that Sam and Frodo are recovered and they can catch up and they can spend time together. But also now their social calendar is a little more full and they're going to have a little less time alone. And they go, oh, shoot OK, let's make the most of this couple of minutes. The hobbits can talk for a long time. We'll probably be good. But, you know, let's make it quick.
00:41:27
Speaker
Well, and they're no longer facing imminent death and destruction either. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, that that brings out feelings in people. Oh, I'm sure, sure it
New Roles and Personal Growth in Recovery
00:41:38
Speaker
does. Mm-hmm. But they all have their wonderful little reunion, and Gandalf shows up and tells everyone they have to go to bed. Very mom at the sleepover, and everyone is fucking exhausted, and Gimli,
00:41:54
Speaker
my favorite boy, because I haven't gotten to talk about Gimli lately, because we've been focused on important world changing stakes or something, but rest assured, I am still a Gimli girly. And so they're talking about, you know, going to Epi time. And not only Sam and Frodo here said Gimli, but you too Pippin.
00:42:11
Speaker
I love you, if only because of the pains you have cost me, which I shall never forget, nor shall I forget finding you on the hill of the last battle. But for Gimli the dwarf, you would have been lost then, but at least I know now the look of a hobbit's foot, though all that can be seen is under a heap of bodies. And when I heaved that great carcass off you, I made sure you were dead. I could have torn out my beard, and it is only a day yet since you were first up and abroad again, to bed you now go, and so shall I." so good it's like just you I dragged your fucking ass out of a heap of bodies on the battlefield. You are not going to die on my watch now. I was i was so fucking sure that you were dead, but you were not dead, and now you're alive, and so you're gonna go to sleep, and I'm gonna go to sleep. I have chased your ass along the width and breadth of Rohan. And now to the fucking Black Gate itself.
00:43:06
Speaker
He's tired and then Legolas just frolics off and sings about the sea. Clean up crews are delving into Mordor to destroy the last of the Northern fortresses and mop up any last resistance. Legolas also sort of like prophecies that he's going to eventually bring elves down to a Thylian.
00:43:30
Speaker
isn and they're going to dwell there for a little time before they finally go to Valinor across the sea. But anyway, they all, after several days, they gather themselves and they head down the river. um They sail down to Osgiliath and then march to the gates of Minas Tirith. And by now it is the evening before May, it is the last day of April.
00:43:58
Speaker
um which means Aragorn will enter the city on the dawn of May 1st, which is also Beltane, the start of summer, May Day, International Workers Day. Unfortunately, he's not a worker. He is the state. It's Jonathan Colton, 1st of May.
00:44:16
Speaker
outdoor fucking starts day I was saying the other day, I think that would be a good karaoke song, but I don't know how many karaoke places would have it just because I think it's a little bit niche, but it's definitely a little bit niche, bye but it would be so fun. Oh, that is that is such a fantastic karaoke piece. It will stick a clip.
00:44:54
Speaker
Anyway, that brings us to the end of chapter four. Anything else we want to discuss before delving into chapter five, the steward and the king? no chapter five is really nice and i want to talk about it so we go back in time a few days hey we go back in time again hey yeah we've been we've been traveling in sort of the same time period for a little while but now we go back to the city of gondor shortly after the captains and the last host of the west marched to mordor there's a lot of talk
00:45:28
Speaker
interestingly in this chapter and the last chapter about clothing and bandages made of linen. And I wanted to ask if you had any commentary on it. Not specifically. I ah feel a little ashamed that I didn't notice. There was a lot of talk of really exciting extravagant clothing, so I was paying more attention to that.
00:45:49
Speaker
But linen, I think, you know, it has in the Western world associations with burial. It's a very sort of light breezy fabric. So it's there's sort of like a lightness after all of the heaviness. There's also this sort of death rebirth vibe, but.
00:46:11
Speaker
Yeah, nothing really nothing really specific. I'm a big fan of Linen. I really love Linen, and I could go off on a tangent about how the Industrial Revolution and the Transit Linux slave trade are connected to the Western world's shift from more linen-based textile culture to cotton-based textile culture and how linen is actually better than cotton for a lot of the purposes we use cotton for, but we don't have time for that and I don't have enough sources. Go off. Go off, girl.
00:46:41
Speaker
Okay, so ah just a little bit, because I don't have sources to cite in front of me. And, you know, I want to represent this topic well. But linen is a phenomenal fabric, and it's something that you can fully grow and harvest in sustainable amounts for a family on your own land, basically. It is time consuming. It takes a long time, but it's flax, it's grass, and it's fairly straightforward to grow and it can be processed. And because of the way that linen fibers are made, it's the inner woody stalk of the flax plant. So you grow the flax, you cut it down with a scythe, and it's these long reed grass things, right? And there's fibers that go from the top to the bottom. And when you're spinning fabric, when you're spinning thread,
00:47:38
Speaker
I should say. Long fibers are good because they're really strong, so you're twisting a lot of long pieces together as opposed to a lot of very short cotton fibers are super short. They're you know maybe two or three inches each, whereas a linen fiber can be several inches to several feet.
00:47:54
Speaker
And so see super long strong fibers and you take the cut linen stocks and submerge them in water. Sometimes it'll be in a running stream if you have a stream on your property or can just be in standing water and you let the outer sort of fleshy plant material completely rot away. And so anything that can rot on the plant has rotted and you're left with just this super durable rot-resistant, mold-resistant, water-resistant fiber, which is also why it's used a lot in burial shrouds and in bandages and things because it's really clean. ah There's not going to be anything gross that like grows on it, really.
00:48:35
Speaker
and It can be spun by hand. It can be woven by hand. It's really durable. It gets softer the more that you wash it. It has moisture wicking and temperature regulating properties. And it's also just really beautiful. I love the look of linen things and it can all be done sustainably on a very small individual scale. Whereas it's a lot harder to get that same return with cotton. Cotton really incentivizes.
00:48:58
Speaker
using large amounts of land and large amounts of labor because it's so much more difficult to process. And cotton does have some other advantages in terms of it's easier to print patterns on cotton and it is better suited for some purposes. But I really, but we could have more linen in the world and we don't. And now it's this expensive niche textile when it used to be much more common in Western clothing. but but That's basically all I have to say about linen. That's not really related to the book at all, but I'm very passionate about it. I'm working on a linen knitting project right now. Do we have to grow flax on the commune? Please. I'll take care of it. I'm down. I'm down. I'll take care of it in the chickens, in the wood-fired pizza oven. If I get a linen shirt out of it, i but I'll be down. I'll make you a linen shirt. It'll be beautiful. Fucking brain cell. Listen, I'll make you anything you want all the time.
00:49:53
Speaker
Anyway, i i I just noticed there was some commentary about linen and clothing in the last chapter and then about the linen bandage, the linen sling that Eowyn's arm is in. And I wanted to ask you about it because you're a resident stitch witch. Yeah, linen is good for medical stuff, especially, you know, if you don't have disposable sterile bandages, linen is pretty great.
00:50:18
Speaker
So Eowyn refuses to lie in bed. She's antsy. She gets up and she goes to argue with the warden of the houses of healing. And the term warden made me think of prisons, of course. um So I went to look up where warden comes from. It comes from old French, meaning one who guards. Okay. And there were a couple of lines throughout this chapter. Faramir refers to himself as also a prisoner of the warden.
00:50:49
Speaker
And like so I started to think about you know what to what extent is the warden a like a prison guard? To what extent is the House of Healing a carceral system where one is involuntarily committed? Can you leave AMA? Can you sign in against medical advice?
00:51:15
Speaker
waver and leave towards the end of the chapter where when Aowin leaves the care of the House of Healing, the warden is like, I, you know, she's yours now. I sign you i sign her over to your care. It's like, okay, so this is the, that feels weird to me. Yeah. There's a lot of complex vibes with the stuff that goes down with Aowin in this chapter. There's a lot.
00:51:45
Speaker
but But the warden also expresses his distaste with the idea of healers who hold any sort of swords or engage in any sort of battle. So like he's some sort of chief of surgery more than he is an administrator. like it's It's kind of a weird vibe. It was it was an interesting word for Tolkien to choose.
00:52:08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's difficult to map his role onto any contemporary medical position. But like you said, Eowyn has her women. We have a vague mention of other women, which is always great. Bring her her clothes because she's fucking sick of laying around. She's asking for news of the war, but there is no news.
00:52:31
Speaker
And just the mood overall is really grim because nobody knows what's happening. You know, the sunlight is back and the weather is nice, but it just kind of seems to be mocking everyone's sadness. And the light is throwing into sharp relief how much everything fucking sucks. Denethor's dead. Theidin's dead. The New King, whoever that is, is fucked off to go fight and everyone's just sort of left trying to figure out what's next. And so Eowyn asks the warden to bring her to see Faramir.
00:53:01
Speaker
And the warden is not totally sure but does it anyway and sort of says, here's Eowyn. She wanted to see you because she's not happy here. And then Eowyn puts him in his place a little bit. She says, do not misunderstand him, Lord, said Eowyn. It is not lack of care that grieves me. No houses could be fairer for those who desire to be healed, but I cannot lie in sloth, idle, caged. I look for death in battle, but I have not died and battle still goes on. So this is like exactly what you were saying about them being
00:53:35
Speaker
sort of prisoners. She's feeling trapped here. And, you know, the quality of the medical care is fine, but that's not what I want. I have no desire to be healed and cured. I just want to go out and fight. She's a fucking jock. And I love that for her. Well, and literally, Faramir goes, I also am a prisoner of the healers. So. And then he says he looked at her and being a man who pity deeply stirred Um, and now looking at that, knowing what comes a few pages later where she talks about not wanting anyone's pity and it's, and it's pity that inspires him to look upon her and feel her grief and start to fall in love with her. Interesting. Yeah. He's, you you know, looking at her and feeling bad. is Oh, she's just.
00:54:33
Speaker
She's a young lady and she's bummed out and she's pretty, I guess. And so he's asking her what he can do for her, basically saying, what is within my power to do for you? And she's bummed that her window doesn't face eastward, not so much literally as metaphorically that, you know, I don't think the problem is she doesn't like her room. It's because the action is happening to the east and she can't see and she has no news about what's going on and they talk about it a little bit and then she asks if there's anything she can do for him and she says how should I ease your care my lord she said and I do not desire the speech of living men and that line was interesting to me I wasn't
00:55:17
Speaker
totally sure what she meant. But I just took it to mean that normally she just doesn't want men to talk. But in this case, she'll hear what he has to say. But I didn't really know what she meant by that. So I think it it connects with her desire for death and battle. um And specifically, like her desire to constantly be fighting. Yeah. In many ways to her mind going off to battle is tantamount to death. She was not expecting to survive the charge at the Pelennor Fields. She has not been expecting to survive this entire time. And so, you know, that speech of living men thing is, I think, you know, she doesn't want to talk to anyone who's not fighting.
00:56:05
Speaker
I like that. The only thing that she wants to be doing right now is fight. She has a job that she feels like she needs to be doing. And she's being actively prevented from doing it by her injuries and by the fact that she is stuck in the House of Healing.
00:56:25
Speaker
And i was I was sort of thinking like, you know, why does she seek death so much? Why is she searching for Valhalla through all of this? And Faramir will comment on this in in a few pages too. But I think she, Eowyn is trying desperately to be as valuable to her people as she sees her brother and her uncle being. And in this case at this time, that value is on the battlefield. She is a shield maiden, she is a warrior, she has that soul, um and yet by the fact that she's a woman, she's kept back from that. And then also I think too, much like Theoden leading from the front,
00:57:24
Speaker
because he had spent so much time being poisoned by by worm tongue. It's been commented on that she also was present for all of worm tongues influence. And so I think she also feels like she has to redeem herself somehow. Yeah. And again, that redemption is coming through blood. Yeah, as this conversation and continues and she's asking him what he wants from her, there's unexpected flirtation. I did not have Eowyn and Faramir on my bingo card for this book.
00:58:02
Speaker
and I'm here for it and I also like the way that their relationship progresses over just the course of a couple of pages because he basically says to her that she's so beautiful more than all of the flowers and fair maidens in his country and she's so great and the world might end in a couple of days but I would love to be able to see you while we're all still alive.
00:58:31
Speaker
because also they've both experienced the same highly traumatic events for you and I have both passed under the wings of shadow and the same hand drew us back. You know, we've both barely scraped by through these very intense near-death experiences and we're kind of the only ones who can understand what we've been through. And but he's giving her this kind of flowery speech and she softly turns him down Alas, not me, Lord, she said. Shadow lies on me still. Look not to me for healing. I am a shield maiden and my hand is ungentle. But I thank you for this at least that I need not keep to my chamber. I will walk abroad by the grace of the steward of the city." So better luck next time, pal. But yeah, I had more things to say and then I and then i forgot, but I enjoyed that exchange. Well, and Faramir,
00:59:24
Speaker
ends up being like, who the fuck is this mystery woman and goes and talks to Mary about her and to the warden and then starts like stocking her on the walls. And they start like walking together in silence. And after five days of walking together in silence, she seeks him out instead.
00:59:44
Speaker
I like that our notes for this section were very different because you say he's stalking her. And I write, Faramir and Eowyn start hanging out and they're helping each other heal, which is very sweet. But I think we had two different angles. Also because this was my first time, you know, this is the first impression fandom apprentice journey. I had no idea that this was going to happen. So I was just busy being dazzled by some grand romance. And then you were like, actually,
01:00:11
Speaker
He's being a little weird. But yes, she does eventually come and find him. I mean, ah for context listeners, I'm Demi. The very quick, oh, my God, you're beautiful. Like, it does not make that doesn't make sense to me. Like, I don't feel that ever. And so whenever the like the love at first sight shit happens or the, you know, you look at someone and it's like, wow, I'd fuck them and like, okay, cool. I don't understand. Um, i I don't know them. Yeah. So, you know, for all the, for all the jokes that I make about banging Faramir and all 300 of his men on this podcast, like,
01:00:57
Speaker
laying eyes on Faramir and 300 of his men, I'd be like, all right, cool, ah let's make some herbs and stewed rabbit. So this is kind of deeply strange to me. Yeah, I don't have too much more commentary than that on it, but I i do like the sort of like, i I have gotten before the, I meet someone and I'm like, wow, I want to get to know you better. Like I refer to it as like the friend crush. Yeah.
01:01:27
Speaker
Right. And I have had people that I've had the head friend crushes on that, you know, I go on to have other feelings for him and people that I've had friend crushes on that I just, I go on to become good friends with and people that that goes away like, like any other sort of emotional feeling. But I do like that in some like Faramir. If, if we take away Faramir being like, you're beautiful. Let's get married on the, on the first instance.
01:01:57
Speaker
I don't think he proposes to her on the first instance. That's a couple days. He waits a whole five days. ah Yeah. He's taking it slow. But like to be like, you're beautiful, you'll ease my sorrow by being around me on the first meeting.
01:02:14
Speaker
That's a little much. But then I do kind of like that he's like, all right, I need to know more about her because she seems really cool.
Leadership and Rebuilding in Gondor
01:02:21
Speaker
Seems like my type, but let's let's check on that. And then they they spend time together, you know, and yeah, I'm sure there's there's a little trauma bond there. Like you said, they've both lost immediate family members in this fight. They have both been subject to the black breath of the Nazgul.
01:02:45
Speaker
And so they they, you know, have these shared experiences, like you were saying. And anyways, as they're sitting on the walls, being cold, Faramir gives his mother's robe to Aon. And I will toss it back to you in just a moment, but I want to mention briefly about Faramir's mother, Findulius of Amra.
01:03:13
Speaker
She is Prince Imrehill's sister. So Imrehill is Faramir's uncle, which I don't think we've had explicitly explained yet. Oh, I didn't realize they were related. Okay. And is not explicitly explained here in the text, but I i latched onto the Amroth bit. And when I keep thinking about, you know, like being like, who the fuck is Prince Imrahel? Because I keep, i like, and I've been needing to look that up for a little while. I did not remember any extra details about him.
01:03:45
Speaker
And so remembering that he is related to Faramir, that he's Faramir's uncle. Fandulias was his sister. um So he was Denethor's brother-in-law. That's the connection there.
01:04:03
Speaker
The other thing was, Faramir and Eowyn waiting on the walls feels very election night, very watching the horrors unfold, not knowing whether things are going to go badly. yeah They get a happy ending. We get shit. Yeah. Anyway, did you have any commentary? specific I mean, I'm sure you have commentary on the moment, but did you have commentary specifically on the robe?
01:04:29
Speaker
Not really, just that it was extremely beautiful and it was a lovely gift. It's like the color of a summer night and covered in little jewel stars. It's very, very fancy. And just as I'm thinking about it now, thinking, okay, this belongs to his mother who died a while ago. When did he have time to get this out of storage? You know, who had to make it a priority, you know, in between rebuilding walls and doing important practical shit to be like, hey, also, can you go find my mom's cloak? But maybe that was nice. Maybe that was a nice little break from all the war stuff. But what I immediately picked up on of, oh, they're going to get married is the commentary that she looked fair and queenly at his side. And I was like, oh, OK, this is going to happen. All right. I'm I'm here for it. And she does keep kind of softly rejecting him.
01:05:25
Speaker
because he's saying stuff about her being beautiful. It was very much giving me the vibe of that super cheesy rom-com trope where you have two characters looking over a wall or looking at some sort of scenery. And one of them goes like, beautiful, isn't it? But like they're really talking about the person. And then the other person goes, what? And they say, oh, nothing. It was that, because he's doing that. And she goes, come, my friend. And then they go off somewhere.
01:05:54
Speaker
isn't I was getting the vibes cause she was like, is darkness coming? And draws closer to him. Oh, I miss that. And I was like, this is, this is the watch horror movies with me. I'll keep you safe. A third age edition. Yeah. And they are holding hands. isn't And it is, it is very cute. Their hands met and clasped though they did not know it.
01:06:20
Speaker
And then they feel they said that they feel the tremor running through the earth. And that, of course, is the instant that the ring was destroyed. And so when Aowin then asks, is is darkness coming, darkness unescapable, and Faramir goes,
01:06:41
Speaker
In this hour, I do not believe that any darkness will endure." And he stooped and kissed her brow and I wrote, so she's been friendzoning him this whole time. Now he's friendzoning her because we know it's it's his custom to kiss the homies. True, true, true.
01:06:59
Speaker
But then we get more amazing visuals. So right after this moment. And so they stood on the walls of the city of Gondor and a great wind rose and blew their hair. Raven and golden streamed out mingling in the air and the shadow departed and the sun was unveiled and light leaped forth and the waters of Anduin shone like silver. And in all the houses of the city, men sang for the joy that welled up in their hearts from what source they could not tell.
01:07:26
Speaker
That's pretty it's fucking cool. That's pretty great. And an eagle shows up with a song. Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor, for the realm of Sauron has ended forever and the dark tower is thrown down. Hell yeah. And there's a recording of Tolkien saying this somewhere. How did the east became a great eagle flying?
01:07:54
Speaker
And he bore tidings beyond hope from the laws of the West, crying, Sing now ye people of the Tower of Anor for the realm of sore on his ended forever, and the dark tower is thrown down. um there's actually There's actually a lot of recordings I found um like last week and I knew existed and then was reminded of them recently.
01:08:18
Speaker
of Tolkien reading bits and pieces of these books. So unfortunately, can't necessarily go back and insert those into earlier episodes. But maybe when we do our like poetry bonus episode, we can insert some Tolkien reading some of his own poetry. Oh, that would be fun. Throughout these chapters, we get sort of very quick little, there's paragraphs and paragraphs where we'll be going through like,
01:08:46
Speaker
certain feelings, and then there'll be a single paragraph where it's like, and days later, the days that followed were golden. Tolkien is not spending time on the little things that don't matter. For all of his flowery descriptive language, he's being more or less economical about what he's spending that flowery descriptive language on.
01:09:12
Speaker
Mary goes away to the fields of Kormalyn, where we saw him in the previous chapter. and But also Aemir asked for Eowyn to join as well, but she stays with Faramir as he takes up the role of Stuart. And Faramir asks her why.
01:09:38
Speaker
And she's like, you know, I'm not really sure. And he's like, I, I do know, actually. Yeah. Well, he's got, he's got two kind of theories, both of which are kind of true. I guess two and a half theories. So it's either because of Aragorn, because she only answers to his military orders or that she's in love with him.
01:10:02
Speaker
or that she wants to be near Faramir. And they have a long talk about how he's kind of calling her out about only wanting Aragorn for his power because she wanted to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And Aragorn is a great captain.
01:10:23
Speaker
But Faramir is also a great captain and he thinks she's a badass and he wants to marry her. But and there's stuff there that we can talk about. But I enjoyed that. I feel like I called this way back when she and Aragorn first met and they were making eyes at each other. And I was saying, OK, like, fine, whatever. I see the heterosexual straight relationship happening here.
01:10:50
Speaker
But I really think that she wants his power. She wants to be him. She wants to have what he has. And there's no romantic chemistry there. There is no reason for them to end up together. And he's hot. She has eyes. But I think that what he represents, and especially with what you were talking about with her wanting to be useful and serve her people and be important, that all makes a lot of sense.
01:11:19
Speaker
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. She also says, this and this is where we get the line, I wish to be loved by another, but I desire no man's pity. Mm-hmm. And Aragorn pitied her. Yeah. And that hurt her. It was one thing to be relegated to the back and not be allowed to fight.
01:11:47
Speaker
it was another thing to be pitied for that. Which is why now thinking back to those earlier lines, it's a little bit uncomfy that what drives Faramir initially to learn more about her is pity. Yeah. But I mean, at least I guess we can give him credit for that may have been his initial impetus for his curiosity, but then he does genuinely get to know her in five days.
01:12:18
Speaker
This is true. Listen, they have they they're doing a ah they're pulling a sapphic here, which is they're having some very long dates, very close together, and then you hauling yeah out to a third. This is where Faramir more or less proposes, asks her if she loves him,
01:12:48
Speaker
and says that he loves her and that he'd love her even if she was marrying Aragorn and going to be queen of Gondor. And did you have commentary on her response to this? Yes, yeah this is the thing that really is complicated. So this is what she says. She says, I stand in Minas Enor, the Tower of the Sun, she said, and behold, the shadow has departed. I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great writers, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer and love all things that grow and are not barren. And again, she looked at Faramir. No longer do I desire to be a queen, she said. And so I
01:13:34
Speaker
there I don't really know where to start here. I think, especially comparing this to what we were saying about Frodo earlier and the significance of him not wanting a sword and what a powerful statement that would be of him putting aside, ending the cycle of violence that he participated in.
01:13:53
Speaker
On the one hand, I see that that's what's happening here. And this journey from perpetuating violence to finding some other outlet for that energy, sure, sure.
01:14:07
Speaker
But Eowyn has no healing knowledge or experience or power. like Frodo, it makes sense because he only took up his role in battle out of necessity. It is sort of like this temporary noble sacrifice.
01:14:24
Speaker
but For Aowin, being a warrior is such an important part of her identity. It feels really depressing to see her just be like domesticated so fast. And, you know, sure, maybe you don't desire to be a queen is that also like, I don't know, I kind of liked her political ambitions, but I think that there could be an alternate path for her.
01:14:54
Speaker
where she still gets that resolution of accepting her role in a peaceful world. And I also think that could be really interesting for her to reckon with going like, okay, like what's my job? What's my purpose now? But there could be something of like, you know, we don't need a standing army anymore, but I will still protect Gondor and I will use my skills in service to this peaceful world and making sure that people are safe. I'll do something like what Aragorn did, you know, what in his Strider role, I'll be like a ranger, I will do these, I will carry on the darker works that everyone else can live in peace. There's so much that she could do, still maintaining her identity and carrying on her skills and applying them in a different way. And fair America be like, wow, I love my strong barbarian wife. That could be so cool. But that's not what happens. And it just feels
01:15:52
Speaker
weird and they have a big dramatic kiss and everyone sees and it's very cute and obviously I'm happy for them but I have if conflicting feelings about her response so what do you think? So one of the things that I that I when I was reading this earlier at the beginning of the chapter the warden mentions sort of the warrior healer dichotomy And how strange it is to him that Aragorn straddles both sides of that dichotomy. And how that is the mark of a king. And so I think in some ways, Eowyn is also trying to straddle both sides of that dichotomy while she's in love with Aragorn.
01:16:48
Speaker
And when she gives up that ambition and desire to be queen, she realizes that like she, she is but a mortal. She cannot do both. She has to choose one or the other. And so she chooses to give up the life of violence. Another way to read it too is that she now feels like she's actively got something to live for.
01:17:18
Speaker
isn And so chooses to not be a warrior anymore? Yeah, it was a little strange to me that she was giving up being a shield maiden as soon as she feels the love of a man that she can actually reciprocate.
01:17:34
Speaker
Yeah, because if it was a conclusion that she had come to herself, if we had gotten some of her inner journey reflecting on her role in this new world and that process, that's really interesting. And I can see her arriving to that conclusion on her own, and it making sense. But because of the way that it's framed and what we get in the story, that's, oh, it's because a man loves me, and now I'll just stay at home and be a healer.
01:18:03
Speaker
that was disappointing to me. Also, you had you had said the words, you know, my strong barbarian wife, which brings me to another point actually, where Faramir is saying, you know, we'll get married and we'll go across the river and make Ithilien beautiful. And with you there, everything will grow with joy.
01:18:31
Speaker
And she says, first of all, she says, then must I leave my own people, man of Gondor? Which is the first thing that he doesn't answer. Yes, he does not give her a straight answer on that and I noticed. But then also she says,
01:18:47
Speaker
And would you have your proud folk say of you, there goes a Lord who tamed a wild shieldmaiden of the North. Was there no woman of the race of Numenor to choose?" So again, the idea of her giving up being a shieldmaiden as some form of like taming, as some form of civilizing her and making her a real woman, it implies an animalistic quality to her.
01:19:17
Speaker
There's some of the weird like racial thoughts to this because the men of Gondor of the race of Numenor and so they're supposedly inherently superior to other types of men. And so her being like, you're really stooping so low as to not marry a Numenorian here. You know, what were you pe what will your people think? They'll think you're slumming it here.
01:19:47
Speaker
yeah Which is a valid concern, I suppose, that she has. like She doesn't want to be thought of as other, as lesser than people she's supposedly going to be placed in a role above. isn Just the idea that the people of Gondor will think of her still as other, despite the long history between Rohan and Gondor. Yeah.
01:20:16
Speaker
And I'm interested too in, I know I think canonically they have a long and happy relationship, but if what draws Faramir in is her sense of duty and you know her being a fighter, a warrior, does that love, that infatuation remain when she gives that up? Yeah.
01:20:44
Speaker
There's also a lot of talk about uses of the word barren and things growing and nurturing. So obviously it is very heavily implied that she's going to have children. And what the fuck is Eowyn going to be like as a mom? Will she be happy as mom? I don't know. And I think that she is a complicated,
01:21:04
Speaker
She's nobility. She doesn't have to raise her own kids. That's true. But
Future Transitions and New Beginnings
01:21:09
Speaker
I think she's a complicated and interesting person. And I wish that we got more of her. I'm sure there are fan fics aplenty that explore this in depth, but i I enjoy wrestling with the things that Eowyn implies by her existence.
01:21:29
Speaker
We are giving more thought to the women characters than I think Tolkien ever did. That's... unsurprising. It... that may perhaps be because we are both... women. Yeah. That'd do it. Anyway, the captains enter the city. More Iraith, please. I love Iraith.
01:21:53
Speaker
um Because she shows back up. Yeah, for those who may have forgotten. Yeah, she's the healer from before when we were talking about the King's foil. Yes. She's she's giving a lesson to her country bumpkin ah cousin that has shown up for the arrival of the King.
01:22:11
Speaker
And this is, it's so funny, she's just, let's see. The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, I said. And that was how it was all discovered. And Mithrandir, he said to me, Iraeth, men will long remember your words and, but Iraeth was not permitted to continue the instruction of her kinswoman from the country. For a single trumpet rang and a dead silence followed.
01:22:35
Speaker
amazing. And then of course she continues on the next page too. She's just constantly talking. Yeah, she's just the comic relief. Well, and she was doing this in the other chapter too, where she's just like constantly popping in with commentary. I love her. She's so great. And so the events that they're discussing, obviously, Eragon showing up with his whole host and it's very dramatic and Faramir meets him in the middle of the field and officially surrenders his office, but Eragon pulls an UNO reverse card and says that Faramir's office has not ended and it will belong to Faramir and his heirs forever.
01:23:13
Speaker
And basically the position of the steward of Gondor will always exist and that will be together with the king, which I think is nice and lovely. And so I think that's a good kind of moral reward for Faramir being such a perfect steward. And because he relinquished his desire for that role, he is now free to take it without you know, all of the corruption that had plagued Denethor. So they have their beautiful moment together and Faramir asks for the people's approval to, for Aragorn to come into the city and enter it as their king. And of course they all say, yes, it is amazing. Well, it's, and several episodes ago, we had that discussion about where does authority come from? Where, what makes a monarchy legitimate? And you had mentioned, you'd mentioned, was it your old history teacher's take that it derives from the consent of the governed?
01:24:11
Speaker
Yes, which this is not perfect for that, but it does work. And Aragorn picks up the crown and says in Elvish, out of the great sea to Middle-earth I am come, in this place I will abide in my heirs unto the ending of the world. But Crucially does not put on the crown because he wants Frodo and Gandalf to do it for him.
01:24:38
Speaker
ah by the labor and valor of many I have come into my inheritance. In token of this, I would have the ring bearer bring the crown to me and let Mithrendir set it upon my head." And it's extremely moving. This is a really nice, especially coming hot off the heels of the American election. It was really nice to go, yep, this is a peaceful transition of power. Obviously, we're not fans of monarchies in the real world, but in this world, this is what the people want, and everyone's happy with it, and it's beautiful, and he's recognizing all the people who brought him to this point, and it was just lovely. And I really enjoyed escaping into this chapter for a little while. Down with monarchies.
01:25:26
Speaker
Also, if we want to go down on monarchs, as long as they're Aragorn, that's fine. Is Aragorn Prince Henry ah you know from Red, White and Royal Blue? Of course. Did you have anything else about the coronation?
01:25:43
Speaker
We flash forward a bit after the after the crown is placed on his head to learn that like dwarves and elves are going to come to Minas Tirith to work and frolic in the city, and it will become great and greater than it has ever been. He makes peace with the Easterlings and with Harad. He releases the slaves of Mordor. He does a lot of kingly shit. And then Baragond.
01:26:08
Speaker
Poor Baragond has to answer for his crimes. Why? Why is this important? I don't know, but this poor fucking guy still, despite everything he did, he still gets fired from the guard and banished.
01:26:28
Speaker
Eric Gordon, bro. And I get, he's appointed to the white company to guard Faramir and whatever, but it just seemed, and this is presented as very merciful, but I was just like, really? Why can't you just let him live? He used to move to a different city now. why Why can't he just stay here? I mean, I read it ever so slightly differently, which was that to an extent, the oath that he broke was like, it was a religious one.
01:26:59
Speaker
he He was essentially a paladin and he chose to betray his lord in a way that probably would not allow him to continue working with anyone else that he had already worked with. He's clearly also being rewarded by being appointed the captain of the white company.
01:27:29
Speaker
and Faramir's personal guard, but if he had stayed as guard of the Citadel, there were survivors of the guard of the Citadel who had worked with Baragon and also with the men that Baragon killed. Yeah, that's a good point. And so and so to be like, yeah, you're just gonna go back to work and everyone's gonna know you also killed all of your coworkers. Mm-hmm.
01:27:56
Speaker
And yes, you were doing it to protect Faramir, but you had promised never to spill blood in the Citadel. And you had also promised to serve Denethor. And so what I'm telling you to do now is clearly in your protection of Faramir, that was a transfer of your oath. That was a you making a new oath without necessarily saying so.
01:28:27
Speaker
but now your job is to go and fulfill that new oath that you swore by spilling blood in this sacred place. Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. I'm now converted to seeing it your way. I i definitely see how you ah how reading it the way you initially read it makes makes total sense. And I am perhaps being a little more merciful. it is perhaps a little mean of Aragorn to be like, so you fucked up and by the law I should kill you, but also I'm the king, motherfucker. So yeah, anyway, but Baragont is half banished to Ithilien. It doesn't say that he can't ever return to Minas Tirith.
01:29:21
Speaker
That's true. So I guess me saying that he was banished was not entirely charitable. I think, I think that's meant to be implied, but it's with that wording, a competent lawyer could make the argument that if he wants to come back and see some friends, he absolutely can do that. Or if Faramir comes back and he's traveling with Faramir, that's fine. Yeah.
01:29:44
Speaker
Anyway, Aragorn and Aemir talk about how much they love each other and what will become of Theoden's body. yeah And it will remain here for now among the kings of Gondor until the Rohirrim can make a barrow and prepare Medu-celled for its fallen king's return.
01:30:12
Speaker
And Aemir and Eowyn go back to Edoras to repair their own kingdom, but Eowyn promises Faramir she will come back. Faramir's given the prince-ship, principality of Ithilien, and then everyone sort of goes on their way, and the fellowship remains in Gondor for a little while.
01:30:35
Speaker
because Aragorn really does not want to see the fellowship dissolved. He has some reason, which he's being very cagey about beyond just the magic of friendship. He's saying,
01:30:48
Speaker
a day draws near that i have looked for in all the years of my manhood and when it comes i would have my friends beside me but of that day he would say no more And apparently Bilbo, who is confirmed to still be alive, is also waiting for this day and knows what it is. And
Symbolic Journeys and the Age of Men
01:31:06
Speaker
so this is just a fun, a fun short little mystery. And while everyone is wondering what the fuck is going on with that, Aragorn and Gandalf go on a special nighttime journey together and it's very beautiful and they like go up a mountain and
01:31:25
Speaker
They, and I know I'm cruising along here. Is there anything? to interject. No, no, that's that's basically what I had is they find a sapling of the white tree of Gondor. And Ganav has this brief discussion with Aragorn, where as they're hiking up Mount Mendelowin, which is the very large mountain that looms over Minas Tirith, he tells them that his time is over, the time of the elves is over, three the time of the three rings of the elf kings is over. Now is the time of mortal men.
01:31:56
Speaker
And it is up to Aragorn to begin this new age and set down what will become the standard, what will become remembered from the past into the future. What trappings of the past will be brought into the future? And some ah one of those trappings is this sapling of the white tree.
01:32:20
Speaker
which they bring back to the city and place in place of the dead tree, which gets laid in the crypts as if it's a person. I love that. As if it's a king, specifically. And I love that. I thought that was really nice. And also it's so, he's being so gentle with the little s sapling. It's very careful because we know Tolkien loves trees. Very careful to note that the sapling was only very lightly rooted in the ground and Aragorn just scooped it up super gently and didn't hurt the tree at all. And it was totally fine. And the tree had a nice time, which is really good. I'm glad.
01:32:58
Speaker
Oh, I wonder if the Ents will come visit it. Wouldn't that be nice if they came and visited the baby tree? It would be like, be fun like a, well, I guess not like a baby shower cause it's already alive, but like a, like a tree christening party and the Ents can show up. I'm going to go write fanfic about that.
01:33:16
Speaker
And Gandalf is very careful to note that if the tree ever has fruit, the fruit must be planted up in this little valley, too. Because it only seems to come to bloom when it's needed, basically. And this is the sign. And on Midsummer
Wedding Celebration and Closing Remarks
01:33:34
Speaker
Eve. I saw the sign. This is the sign that Aragorn was waiting for.
01:33:42
Speaker
Yes, because on Midsummer Eve, Elorohir and Eladan and Glorfindel and Arrestor and all the Rivendell elves and Galadriel and Celeborn and Elrond and Arwen come. And Arwen Evenstar, Arwen Undomiel and Aragorn Elasar of the House of Telkontar are married.
01:34:08
Speaker
Yeah, it is so nice. And I, being me, wanted a big, huge, elaborate description of their amazing royal wedding. and We don't get that, we just get, they're married. But I was still so happy because Aricorn wanted his friends with him for his wedding. It was so cute.
01:34:28
Speaker
And I love it. And you know that everyone got all dressed up and had special little outfits. And you know that the Hobbits would have made sure that there was amazing food. And I bet Legolas and Gimli looked so sharp and so nice and they probably danced a little bit and their heights are different and it was adorable. It's good shit. I was eating that up. I think I read that at like 7.15 this morning and I texted you in all caps about it. You did. I was still asleep.
01:34:56
Speaker
Um, I was at a, I was at a wedding of some friends last night, which is why my voice is a little bit scratchy. But yeah, so it's, it's very, very cute. And that ends the chapter. So do we have anything else we want to talk about with this section? Not that I can think of just these were nice. They were nice chapters and I appreciated that. We're feeling joy again. Yeah.
01:35:28
Speaker
Well, my friends, thank you so much for listening. we We'll wrap it here. And next time we will return with chapter six, many partings. So if you like what you are hearing,
01:35:45
Speaker
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01:36:36
Speaker
That's where that will go because we record these too far out to actually record any announcements for them. But thank you so much for listening. We love having you here. Our socials are at fan app pod on all of the various platforms.
01:36:51
Speaker
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01:37:11
Speaker
The Phantom Apprentice is produced and edited by Rin and Sam. Our music was composed and performed by James, and our art is by