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Ep 23- And Hell Followed With Them
30 Plays9 months ago
We begin on the last stage of our journey with Return of The King! Points of discussion include Ba Sing Se, Hobbit gender, The Guns of August, accents, and the inevitability and moral neutrality of death!
Covers Book V Chapter I: Minas Tirith, and Book V Chapter II: The Passing of the Grey Company
Recommended
Transcript
Video Game vs. Real Fishing
00:00:00
Speaker
I've been playing my spooky fishing game because I fucking love video game fishing. I don't like real fishing. I've tried it. I'm just not good at it. But video game fishing, I'm fucking all about. Yeah, when we play Stardew, you get to like level 10 fishing by the end of spring.
00:00:18
Speaker
That's my goal because it's a good way to make money and I'm really good at the minigame. I, does Skyrim have fishing? i mean and We must have talked in the podcast about my relationship with Skyrim. We don't need to get into that, but does it have a fishing thing?
00:00:34
Speaker
I never fished in Skyrim. So maybe. Have I told you about my brilliant idea for a YouTube channel related to video game fishing?
00:00:47
Speaker
No. So this is my genius idea. And if somebody has a dad who fishes, please take this and credit the fandom apprentice with the IDX. I want to see it happen. So it's like a video game, you know, play through review channel. And it's a gamer young person and a dad who fishes and the dad plays the fishing canics in various games and reviews them based on how fun and engaging the fishing part of the game is. I would watch the shit out of that. That actually sounds really fun. It would be so cute, but I don't know anything about fishing. I don't care to learn about fishing. I don't know anybody who fishes. So this is not a dream that I can make come true, but I think that it would be delightful.
00:01:35
Speaker
My uncle fishes, um but he is not of ah of the video gaming persuasion. Well, that's why you need another person to be a team. I mean, I'm sure there are gamers who fish out there. I'm not trying to erase their existence, but the the duality between the gamer and the fisher would make it so good.
00:02:05
Speaker
Cause it wouldn't be accurate cause you can't capture the essence of fishing. I mean, maybe there's fishing simulators that are really realistic. You could do those too, but there's just, there's a world of possibilities. I, I have been fishing like with my dad and my grandfather and also said, uncle, it's never really been my thing. Yeah. I have the patience for it. I'm a very patient person, but I don't like hanging out in the sun.
00:02:31
Speaker
I don't like getting up super early to go on a boat and it grosses me out. I don't like the worms and I feel
Sustainable Practices and Personal Preferences
00:02:40
Speaker
bad for the fish. Even if you catch and release them, then you've just given this fish a horrible injury in its mouth that it has to go swim around and hope it doesn't get infected and die. I just feel like it's cruel. If you're going to catch the fish, you should eat the fish.
00:02:55
Speaker
I'm not against catching fish to eat them, but to me personally, I just felt bad knowing that I was injuring this poor little fish and then just letting it go. You do have to like throw a good amount of them back um based on like size requirements. Yeah, I know there's rules and I know that my brother who lives in Maine who did this extensive research internship one summer out on a very remote little island with no access to anything. His main communication with the outside world was um the radios that all the lobstermen were using to talk to each other. And so he would just be up on all of the radio chatter between the lobstermen and the things that I have learned about Maine lobstermen
00:03:44
Speaker
is they love their wives and they love snowmobiling, and they love talking about how they're going to take their wives snowmobiling. It's usually very wholesome. That honestly sounds great. Yeah, but I'm a full support. Go to be cherished by a Maine lobsterman. Oh my God. I want to put that on a t-shirt. I want to cross-stitch it. That's beautiful. I'm going to tell my brother who said that. But yeah, no, I'm a very big proponent of getting food
Podcast Introduction and 'Return of the King'
00:04:13
Speaker
from the earth. If you're going to fish sustainably, if you're going to hunt sustainably, go do it. It's just not for me. The video game fishing, I enjoy tremendously because it's so difficult to translate into a video game medium. The game that I just finished playing was dredge and there's different mini games for the different types of fish and also horror elements. ah Chef's kiss. I love it.
00:04:36
Speaker
Also, it is raining and I have my window open because it's cool and very calming. But if the rain sounds become too much, I can close the window. I can't hear it. There is an extremely loud motorcycle going by and people setting off fireworks. So it's the music of the city. It is what it is. Well, I hope our listeners enjoy our background ASMR as we dive in to Return of the King. We dive in with the fish into the ocean. No, there's no bodies of water here. We are in very landlocked area from what I can tell. We will get to the ocean by the end. Ooh, okay.
00:05:44
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Hello. And welcome back to the latest episode, or at least that you're listening to, of The Phantom Apprentice. I'm Rin. I am the host that has finished the series before. I'm Sam. I'm the host that hasn't, if you haven't figured that out through Context Clues. We are here ah because Lord of the Rings was a very big part of my childhood and it wasn't of Sam's. And so together we are going through the entirety of Lord of the Rings, chapter by chapter, and putting our own little gay interpretations on it. And today we are starting Return of the King.
00:06:41
Speaker
Let's go. I waited so long for this. I was very excited. Which is very, very fun. And it really hits the ground running. Do we have anything else we want to get into before we talk about Minas Tirith?
00:07:03
Speaker
I don't think so. These are two very beefy, very long and substantive chapters. Hopefully we can get through them all today, but we have a lot of ground to cover, so I say let's just go for it. Let's fucking go. We are once again back in time. And we have throughout these chapters sort of like multiple markers that Tolkien puts in to define where we are in time, right?
00:07:31
Speaker
we have like within the first two paragraphs here this was the second no the third night since he had looked in the stone but we're back with Pippin and Gandalf.
Gandalf and Pippin in Minas Tirith
00:07:42
Speaker
And Pippin specifically his conception of time right now is very fuzzy because he's just been going it seems like non-stop with Gandalf and Shadowfax towards Minas Tirith for a couple of straight days. So he's trying to figure out what year it is, what's happening, what's going on.
00:08:03
Speaker
It's sort of implied that they stop at Etteros on that first night um and Pippin sleeps in the corner. But Pippin, yeah, like you said, time is not real to him because he's just basically out cold for almost three days while they run. And I was interpreting this in sort of two ways. One is it's the residual fallout, like physical energy fallout of him looking in the Palantir.
00:08:31
Speaker
um And he's just so drained. Or B, that Shadowfax runs in sort of a parallel realm at like warp speed. And Pippin just has to sleep to basically survive that experience. That's really interesting. I hadn't really thought about either of those things. I just thought, sure, he's a tired hobbit.
00:08:59
Speaker
And this is an exhausting journey and it's catching up with him because this isn't his usual lifestyle. But both of those are much more exciting possibilities. And I'm inclined to the Shadowfax warp speed theory, if only because, especially in these two chapters, Gandalf is such a horse girl. And we'll get into this more later, but it would track that Shadowfax has special super speed, magical dimension powers, because that seems to be in alignment with him being the bestest boy ever. Also, speaking of Shadowfax as the bestest boy ever, at one point Shadowfax stops and like, nays at three other horses that are going by. Oh, I miss that. And I sort of saw this as like, Shadowfax is like, giving a blessing to these other horses.
00:09:54
Speaker
Yeah, because he's like the king of all the horses. I mean, specifically in Rohan, he seems to be you know the lord of the horses, because there was the whole thing with the other horses running away and finding shadow facts. But I also am going to choose to believe that he just kind of has special powers with all horses, because it seems like he truly is the best one. But it's it's right when Gandalf is pointing out that the beacons of Gondor are lit, um which are giant beacon fires.
00:10:24
Speaker
calling for help. And Pippin freaks out. He goes, are there dragons here? Why are the mountains on fire? And Gandalf is like, shoo, my sweet, go back to sleep. ah Well, he also tries to lecture Pippin on Gondor's history and customs because apparently the signal fires are a very ancient technology because for a while they were using whatever the plural of Palantir is to communicate.
00:10:53
Speaker
But with those out of commission, then they have to use the signal fires, which are a whole big thing. But then he goes into history lecture time and it is just not the right time. He's not reading the room. Pippin can't process any of it. And then he just goes back to sleep. I feel like these chapters or this chapter specifically is sort of the start of us getting a lot more of Gandalf's personality and also of us getting into the end game, right?
00:11:21
Speaker
We have lots of magic and majesty and epic feelings that we've been building to, but we're here now in this fantasy world, right? The descriptions that we get this time around are very heavily fantasy. I feel like the battles with the Rohrim felt like a step removed from something that could actually happen, like the battle of at the Hornburg.
00:11:49
Speaker
yeah um And then the fall of Isengard involved ants and wizards, but it wasn't like a huge epic battle. It was a bunch of trees flooding the place and locking a dude in his tower. But now in this chapter, we have multiple instances of magic from multiple beings. We have like from Gandalf, from Denethor, from Shadowfax. And so I, I,
00:12:16
Speaker
I think it's really interesting to jump into this chapter and feel now like we are in the high level part of a D and&D campaign. Yeah, and I'm just mentally now contrasting that to the very beginning of Fellowship and Bilbo's birthday and all of the little magical trinkets and the fireworks and everything being sort of still very fantasy and very immersive, but in this sort of cozy, homey, hobbit-y way. And then we get the terrifying evil darkness of the ring. And now all of the magic is sort of rising up to meet that level of
00:12:52
Speaker
intensity. I don't remember how Two Towers started, but, you know, just the, the beginning. and for ah Yeah, that was not so magical. But for the first book and the last book, beginning with these super magic-y scenes, I like it. It works. But they reach the outermost of the seven gates.
Denethor, Gandalf, and Gondor's Decline
00:13:13
Speaker
Because there's seven rings of walls encompassing from fields all the way up to the Tower of Ictelion.
00:13:22
Speaker
Yeah, because from what I could gather, Minas Tirith is built onto a mountain, basically. and yeah's yeah it was I couldn't tell if they were rings all the way around the mountain or if it was switchbacks on just primarily one side, but it's going up, up to a tower at the top. And ah there is an outermost wall that encompasses the fields of the Pelennor.
00:13:47
Speaker
which to me felt very bossing say. Mm, Except there is in fact a war here. Brain cell, I was about to say there is definitely a war in Minas Tirith. Oh. Lord Denethor has invited you to the Sea of Rune. Ah. But as they reach the first of the Seven Gates, we have another Hobbit gender moment. Yes, can I read the quote?
00:14:17
Speaker
by all means. So Gandalf is going up to the guards at the gate. He's talking to them. He's explaining what hobbits are because the guards are going, who the fuck is this? What did you bring with you? And Gandalf is vouching for him and saying that Pippin is, quote, a very valiant man, unquote. Pippin is incensed.
00:14:40
Speaker
Man, cried Pippin, now more thoroughly roused, because he's still kind of half asleep. Man, indeed not. I am a hobbit and no more valiant than I am a man, save perhaps now and again my necessity. Do not let Gandalf deceive you. Gotta love a hobbit, gender, and also gotta love Gandalf saying something nice about Pippin for once. For once in his goddamn life.
00:15:05
Speaker
I also really love how much in this chapter Gandalf uses his reputation and like tells people he's hot shit. Basically being like, hey, if it wasn't for me, ah you would not be seeing help come out of the North. You'd be seeing the enemy. So anyway, have a lovely afternoon. Don't sleep.
00:15:31
Speaker
Yeah, there's literally so much Gandalf's ass in these chapters because there's so much happening with even just these first two guards because everyone seems to know that there's a hobbit in a prophecy and Gandalf is clarifying that Pippin is a hobbit, but he's not that hobbit. And Pippin tries to speak for himself, but he fails to read the room and just drops that Boromir is dead, which Gandalf is not happy about. Because he says, listen, you should wait and tell the guy's dad first. Don't just tell these random strangers. But there is a great sassy line where he does the thing that you just described. Because the guards are bitching that Gandalf always comes bearing bad news. And he says, and as for counsel, to you, I would say that you are over late in repairing the wall of the Pelennar. Courage will now be your best defense against the storm that is at hand.
00:16:27
Speaker
saying Listen, y'all are fucked and that's not my fault. So be brave, don't sleep. Bye. Good luck. Yeah, just so sassy. Magic makes you dramatic. We haven't talked about that one in a hot minute, but it will come up a lot. Honestly, ah it's very intense, these two chapters. Yeah. So they get past the guards and ride into this beautiful, stunning scene setting. And Pippin is gasping and crying aloud. He is scagged, if you will. that The city is just so gorgeous. what's What's the name of the tower again? How do you pronounce it? ah The Tower of Ecthelion. Okay. So this is what I had written down. I have a lot of quotes for these chapters.
00:17:21
Speaker
Then Pippin cried aloud, for the tower of Vektheleon, standing high within the topmost wall, shone out against the sky, glimmering like a spike of pearl and silver, tall and fair and shapely, and its pinnacle glittered as if it were wrought of crystals, and white banners broke and fluttered from the battlements in the morning breeze, and high and far he heard a clear ringing as of silver trumpets.
00:17:43
Speaker
which is fucking gorgeous. And the thing that that made me think of, there's a couple of really beautiful flowery lines like that, is this is like the city version of Aragorn when he has his beautiful shiny king moments.
00:18:01
Speaker
And there's a reason for that similarity, but that was just immediately what it made me think of, that you have this sort of impressive but kind of ordinary place that suddenly the light hits it and like, oh my God, it's like it's made of sparkly crystals and everything is amazing and magical and beautiful. And I got to enjoy that beauty for about half a second. There's another piece of description. um and Again, i don't I don't have it written down like where it is exactly,
00:18:31
Speaker
But the city is described as a as if having been carven by giants out of the bones of the earth, which immediately made me realize this is Rome. This is Tolkien's Rome, right? This is the last vestiges of the great civilizations of old. Right. There are ruins that are being repaired. ah Specifically, what made me think of that was Roman ruins in England were thought to be the work of giants in the Middle Ages because they had lost the knowledge of how to create things like that. That's so sad. Oh,
00:19:14
Speaker
And so to look at Minas Tirith and later in the chapter to look at the ruins of Osgiliath, this is a fallen civilization clinging on to the last of that splendor, which then is already clinging on to the fallen splendor of Numenor.
00:19:41
Speaker
The other thing that these descriptions were making me think of, I was thinking of three locations that I have traveled either physically or virtually. ah The first one was Gamla Stan, the old city in Stockholm, um which again is sort of this, the the island of ah where Gamla Stan is built is sort of hilly. And so you end up like rising up to the center, walking through these little little alleyways. And there's one point when you, uh, that I remember standing, turning and looking back down the hill and you can see
Pippin's New Role and Youthful Adventures
00:20:20
Speaker
into, um, like, I guess the Harbor more or less, I mean, like out into the fjord essentially, which was very fun. And that, that was, that was sort of the vibe I was getting here. The other,
00:20:37
Speaker
physical location I've traveled to that ah gives me the vibe of Minas Tirith is Monsam Michel in Normandy. I was going to say that if you didn't say it, because that was one of my one of my few European points of references. I have not been there, but I have learned about this place. Yeah, you've got the Abbey in Monsam Michel sitting on the top of this walled city like the Tower of Ictelion, which by the way, that name drives me batshit because it is the name of Ictelion I who is named for the Elvish Lord Ictelion who appears in theel meian and aphaion the I is the namesake of Ictelion II who is the father of Denethor II whom we meet. So there are three Ictelions.
00:21:34
Speaker
Yeah. And the tower refers to neither of the two that I was initially thinking of. Well, that's stupid. ah um Anyway, Gandalf is heading straight for Denethor, who we just mentioned. Denethor is the Steward of Gondor. One of the lines that he says as he's encountering guards is, I must come to your Lord Denethor while his stewardship lasts.
00:22:04
Speaker
That's not ominous at all. Right. It's a real fun way to make people think you're saying we're all in danger, which he is. Well, also hinting at the return of the King. Yeah. Which is very fun.
00:22:22
Speaker
And as they're, you know, going up to see Denethor and I'm enjoying the point three seconds of majesty before the narration talks about how Minas Tirith was in truth falling year by year into decay. And I remember I sent you the picture of the sad hamster with the big giant eyes.
00:22:41
Speaker
Well, too bad i I enjoyed it for a minute. And then there's something about the white tree, seven stars and seven stones and one white tree and they see the white tree, but it's fucking dead. And I don't really know the significance of the tree, but I feel very sad that it's dead and crispy. And there's a lot of contrasts like that in this chapter where they'll reference some majestic thing or talk about how great something used to be and then see how shitty it is now and how Minas Tirithus is an amazing city, but only less than half of the people who could occupy it actually live here. But yeah, they go up to see Denethor and Gandalf gives Pippin some advice. His two main, oh, yeah. Sorry, just to go back a little bit. Yeah, back. Also, the third place that I was thinking of was Markarth in Skyrim. Oh, yeah.
00:23:38
Speaker
again, for the city falling into disrepair, built on the ashes of an ancient civilization. Also, the white tree is the symbol of Gondor. The first one was planted by Isildur from a fruit that was taken from Nimloth of Numenor, which was the white tree grown in the king's court on the island of Numenor.
00:24:03
Speaker
do do do do do do So, you know, priceless cultural artifact that is now just dead sad crispy tree. Yeah, there there have been that first one that Isildur planted has been long dead and there were others planted. But this one, this one now is also long dead. Yes, you were saying. Yeah, so.
00:24:25
Speaker
After all of that meditations on sadness, they roll up to the Denethor Gandalf gives him some advice and his two main pieces of advice are to not say any more than you need to because Denethor will try to take advantage of you and to don't talk about Strider because we don't need this guy to know that somebody is coming to take his job.
00:24:49
Speaker
and then there's more sass, which if i if I read every quote that I have written down, we'll be here all day. But yeah, Gandalf basically says, listen, it's not smart to remind this guy that the new king is coming. And Pippin doesn't seem to have put the pieces together in his head before this. And he's confused in asking what's up. And then at the end of that exchange,
00:25:16
Speaker
Gandalf says, if you have walked all these days with closed ears and mind asleep, wake up now. He knocked on the door, which was just another fuck you, I'm Gandalf. And also, capital B prediction, I was right. If there was any doubt that Aragorn is the king, we have that explicitly confirmed. So, yay me, I get a gold star. You do. Yay.
00:25:42
Speaker
Um, also Gandalf is like, it might've been better if you were educated years ago on like the history of Gondor, because he's like, I don't have time to teach you what you need to know right now. And I, I get that, you know, the best time to learn about this was four years ago, but Gandalf, why are you relying on the Shire's education system? They're an isolationist bunch of gay farming communes.
00:26:12
Speaker
who you actively recruited to participate in this,
Historical Parallels and War
00:26:17
Speaker
however many years ago when you roped Bilbo into it. So maybe don't blame them for not knowing. So I have to wonder, I have to wonder whether Pippin was just a bad student or whether Gondorian history is just not taught or whether it is taught, but like it's a niche subject. It's some people's ancient Rome.
00:26:43
Speaker
to go back to the Rome metaphor. But um yeah, um but yeah i i i don't have a we don't have a way of knowing whether or not like this is something that Pippin might have possibly had a chance of knowing before now. Yeah.
00:27:03
Speaker
And also now I'm spinning out into what is the education system like in the Shire? Do they have public schools? Is everything private tutors? Are there class differences in what people learn? Because we know that Sam learned to read from Bilbo. So he wasn't going to school and learning to read and write. So it seems like Gondorian history might have been a bit of a niche subject for the Shire, but who's to say? But anyway, we enter.
00:27:33
Speaker
and meet Denethor Stewart of Gondor. In his creepy dark throne room. On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, he is a man grieving his son. Okay, fair. Maybe it's not always creepy and dark. But the vibes are very ominous. And Denethor shows them the broken horn and they're all on the same page that Boromir is dead.
00:28:01
Speaker
Denethor mentions that like the horn is a family heirloom dating back to when his forefathers were hunting the wild kind of Ara and I had to go and look up what that was and kind is a archaic term for cattle. ah Specifically he He's probably referring to some sort of like aurochs. But he heard the horn blowing 13 days ago. So Denethor has some sort of weird far-seeing power and this gets like remarked upon later. Yeah.
00:28:43
Speaker
that Denethor can sort of, he's clairvoyant or far-seeing. And this reminded me of the seat at Amansul, where Frodo sat and was able to look far away. And so I have to wonder, is this like, perhaps a power that an ancestor bestowed upon the seat at Amansul? Because Gandalf also mentions that the blood of powerful men, this powerful bloodline runs well in Denethor and it runs in Faramir, but not so much in Boromir. Hmm. Because I remember we did observe that about Faramir too, that he was exceptionally insightful. Right. So I have to almost wonder whether this is like some sort of ah inherited genetic trait. Magic is some sort of genetic trait. and You know, what's the inheritance path here?
00:29:40
Speaker
I think when I read this as a kid, I sort of had an idea that it wasn't like as heavily magical as a series, as some of the other fantasy series I was reading, where people were like casting these obvious spells left and right and saying like incantations and summoning demons and shit. But there's a lot of like both casual magic and also magic that's just kind of um not necessarily casual, but a part of the setting as a whole.
00:30:10
Speaker
And so you have these magical locations like the seat at Amansul, you have the Palantiri, you have um men like Denethor who can see and hear events far away. And you have what we're talking about in the next chapter, the paths of the dead, and everyone kind of knowing about that and then being aware that the paths of the dead have been opened and fucking terrified of it, understandably.
00:30:39
Speaker
But yeah, it's it's fun to kind of revisit this with a ah different mindset surrounding what is magic and what does magic look like. It's a lot more subtle and complicated because I'm thinking about a couple of series that I read as a kid, not just the big one that we're all thinking of, but if everyone is doing constant spells and incantations and stuff, that's a much more level playing field.
00:31:06
Speaker
Everyone can potentially do basically the same stuff if they try hard enough. Whereas in this world, you know, you have the locations that are imbued with certain magic and bloodlines that are imbued with certain magic. And there's just a lot more nuance and variation and it's integrated with the world as opposed to everything magical is because of a spell someone cast. I like it. I think it works.
00:31:34
Speaker
But Pippin reveals that Boromir's death was to save him. And Denethor wants to know everything. And Pippin, in a kind of classic Pippin impulsive moment, ends up swearing fealty to Denethor as a way of repaying that life debt that he holds to Boromir.
00:32:04
Speaker
Yeah, I did not see that coming, but I loved it. I love Pippin having his special moment because it seemed like kind of a random thing to do to me at the time because I was thinking, okay, how did he make the jump from life debt to I guess I am swearing fealty to you? But i it makes more sense now hearing you explain it, but just reading it for the first time, I was like, wait, what? Pippin, what are you doing? But it worked and he got to have his cool moment. And Denethor generously grants them an hour to talk.
00:32:34
Speaker
Well, and Gandalf is pissed about this. And I think at this point, you can you can sort of pick up on the fact that these two fucking hate each other. Yeah, I wrote in my notes, um D and G have dot, dot, dot some kind of intense dynamic.
00:32:50
Speaker
And Pippin observes that Denethor kind of looks more the part of a wizard. He's more kingly. He's beautiful. He's older. But then Pippin just spirals into, wait, how old is Gandalf? And wait, Gandalf, despite his appearances, is way more powerful. And who is this guy that I've just been riding on a horse with for the last three days? Denethor might have mind-reading powers. And then he just gets overwhelmed. In what far time and place did he come into the world? And when would he leave it?
Aragorn's Journey and Leadership
00:33:21
Speaker
was a line that really stood out to me about pip from Pippin spiraling about Gandalf. Gandalf is like, hey, I need to fucking talk to you. And Denethor is like, cool your big naturals, Gandalf.
00:33:38
Speaker
I'm gonna talk to the valiant little hobbit about my son, and then we'll deal with you later. And Gandalf just goes, bitch, I did not ride here with the speed of the wind to bring you a hobbit. I mean, he's a great hobbit. He's fine. But this is obviously not why I'm here. And then Denethor matches his fuck you, I'm Gandalf energy with fuck you, I'm Denethor energy, which is pretty fun to watch. But he matches it with fuck you, I'm Denethor energy with like,
00:34:10
Speaker
That energy is drawn for Denethor from the fact that he is the steward of Gondor. He is specifically pulling from the, hey, I rule this country, to which Gandalf's response is sort of like, unless the king should come again.
00:34:29
Speaker
tehe he Which Denethor says at one point of like, you know, unless the king should come again, which is clearly, you know, meant to be like, that's never going to fucking happen, bitch. I am basically the goddamn king. And Gandalf is like, yes, until the king shows up, bitch.
00:34:51
Speaker
And, you know, they have this weird tense conversation and Pippin talks to Denethor about Boromir. And as they leave, Gandalf really lightens up. He laughs and he tells Pippin that he did a really good job, although he led on more than he may have meant to. And then, you know, he goes off to do his own important Gandalf business, but insists that Pippin check on Shadowfax and make sure he's being taken care of, because again, he is a horse girl.
00:35:22
Speaker
And we will return to talking about Shadowfax so much in so much detail that it's just simply delightful. There's no reason to have this much information on this fucking horse, but obviously Tolkien loves Shadowfax, so we must also love Shadowfax. My one piece about Gandalf's, Gandalf going off is, you know, I know he's going off to do his own thing, but I wrote in my notes that he was going to the staff meeting
00:35:53
Speaker
He kind of is. Oh wait, fuck you, because he's a staff. And also, what does Gandalf's name mean? Wait, what does it mean? In the catalog of dwarves, old Norse piece of poetry that it's pulled from, it means staff elf. Oh my god.
00:36:17
Speaker
I thought I was very funny saying this in my notes, um and I just had to read it for everyone. Yes. Thank you. It's because Gandalf is Odin. Anyway. Mm-hmm. Anyway, Pippin sets out on his own. It's like 9 a.m., and he's very concerned about breakfast, and he has a lot of questions. Do people even eat breakfast here? Is it already over? Where do they eat it? What do they eat? What is happening with breakfast? And then he meets a young man named Baragond? Yes, Baragond. Who, I have to wonder, like, how old is Baragond?
00:36:56
Speaker
I mean, he's a father of a young son, so he's and not like super young, but I don't know. How old's his kid, like eight, 10? 10. He's probably in like his 30s, youngish guy, but he's just giving nice young man energy. Maybe he's not that young, but if I met him, I'd be like, oh, that's a nice young man. I like Baragon, but he's been sent to do Pippin's employee onboarding, which is very fun.
00:37:24
Speaker
That is what he's doing. Oh, my God. He has to teach Pippin the Lesser Passwords. And because Pippin, you know, this swearing fealty to to Gondor, that was not symbolic. He is now very literally an employee. He is in Denethor service. And so he needs someone to teach him how to do this new job that he just got.
00:37:48
Speaker
So he's very sweet and we'll probably tragically die later, but Pippin's first question is about breakfast, because Berrigan goes, what would you like to know? I'm here, you know, ask me whatever you want. And he's so polite and he says, well, if it's not too much trouble, I was just kind of wondering, I didn't see any ins on the way here. What do you, what do you eat for breakfast? And then his second question is about shadow facts.
00:38:18
Speaker
And they do go and see the Shadowfax as requested. During this conversation with Baragon, we get a comment, and we have one from the guards at the gate ah to the Pelennor Fields as well, about Pippin's strange accent. And I want to know,
00:38:40
Speaker
how different it is. Because they're both speaking Western, which a few episodes ago I said that Faramir spoke Sindarin and the men of Gondor spoke Sindarin. Faramir does speak Sindarin, um and there is a line in that chapter about how Faramir is speaking Sindarin with his men. um But the common language of Gondor is Western. That's that's my bad.
00:39:07
Speaker
But I do wanna know like how different these accents are. Is this is this an Australian English ah divide? is this a Does Pippin sound like he just came up from somewhere in the bayou? You know, does Baragon have a Boston accent? Like- Oh my God. Baragon's just a townie. I know we did.
00:39:35
Speaker
ah e or i I did sort of vaguely New York accents for the orcs last time. um So New York is Mordor. I'm sorry to our New York listeners. And now I also am enjoying this diversity of accents because I have the disease that we all have, I think, which is just anywhere that's a fantasy world, everyone has vaguely British accents.
Episode Conclusion
00:40:03
Speaker
And these characters were written by a British man, so obviously that tracks. But I like imagining the greater varieties. And that also just reminds me of when I worked in a call center.
00:40:14
Speaker
I would get a lot of comments about my accent more than I expected. But that was also interesting because I definitely picked up a lot from my coworkers in the town that I was working. And when I was with them and talking on the phone, I had a much more specific regional inflection to that place than I do now.
00:40:37
Speaker
But to me, I was just thinking, okay, this is the way I talk. People say, oh, your accent is so interesting. Where are you from? And I'd say the place like it's not, it's nowhere exotic, but it it was interesting to to be the person with the accent to someone from across the country. I have a habit when I have to talk to customer service people of letting a little bit of a Southern accent drift into my voice, which is Hilarious, because I've been in New Englander almost my entire life. um I was born south of the Mason-Dixon line, barely. And I did not learn to speak there, so I'm not entirely sure why it shows up in my voice, but it does sometimes. It's just your persona. which is Yeah, which is also funny, because neither of my parents are southerners.
00:41:31
Speaker
and Uh, in fact, I can tell that my mother's on the phone with my uncle, with her brother, because her voice gets more Boston. Like she starts dropping her R's and I'm like, ah, when Pippet's with Baragond, they end up going and looking out at the ruins of the city of Osgiliath, which used to be the capital of Gondor and then was overrun by the black riders, which spans the river Anduin.
00:42:04
Speaker
which just again reminds us that this world is a post-apocalyptic one. Yeah. This is the interwar period and all of these descriptions that we're getting of the lost or not the lost glory, but the glory around them of Gondor.
00:42:24
Speaker
are almost tinged with that sense of loss. And I don't know why it made me think of this quote specifically, but I wanna read you a little something here, which is, so gorgeous was the spectacle on the May morning of 1910, when nine kings rode in the funeral of Edward VII of England at the crowd, waiting in hushed and black-clad awe,
00:42:51
Speaker
could not keep back gasps for admiration. In scarlet and blue and green and purple, three by three, the sovereigns rode through the palace gates with plumed helmets, gold, braid, crimson sashes, and jeweled orders flashing in the sun. After them came five heirs apparent, 40 more and imperial or royal highnesses, seven queens, four dowager and three regnant, and a scattering of special ambassadors from uncrowned countries.
00:43:19
Speaker
Together, they represented 70 nations in the greatest assemblage of royalty and rank ever gathered in one place and, of its kind, the last. The muffled tongue of Big Ben told nine by the clock as the cortege left the palace, but on history's clock it was sunset and the sun of the old world was setting in a dying blaze of splendor never to be seen again.
00:43:46
Speaker
That is from the very opening of The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman, which is about the events leading up immediately to the First World War. And after the introduction, it focuses specifically on the month of August when the war broke out in 1914. The entire book is just about the month of August. Damn.
00:44:15
Speaker
But that last line, the son of the old world was setting in a dying blaze of splendor, never to be seen again. That's the vibe that I'm getting here. Yeah. We talked about this a little bit when we talked to Galadriel in fellowship. That's what I was about to bring up, yeah. Right? That the time of the elves is over, right? Even if Sauron is defeated, the world is never going to be the same.
00:44:45
Speaker
This is an interwar period, you know, to think about what might be applicable to our author. Except instead of a 20 year interwar period, it's a 3000 year interwar period. Potato, potato. Right, but they're looking back at the splendor that existed prior to the last war.
00:45:08
Speaker
at some of what was reclaimed after that last war and has since now fallen away in preparation for this one. Anyway, that's just just some thoughts. Yeah. and As they wrap up this observation looking out over the city, Berrigan has to get back to work, but he suggests that Pippin go and meet his son, Virgil.
00:45:31
Speaker
and Pippin goes off and finds a bunch of kids playing and he does fuck with them a little bit, which is very fun. Well, they also like are, you know, puffing out their chests and trying to look big and strong to this newcomer too. Yeah. And Pippin is convincing them that he's scary. And then the kids get a little bit scared and he says, eh, don't believe everything that strangers tell you. And it's just a very silly little back and forth.
00:46:02
Speaker
And he and Virgil become instant basties. And he is the best company that Pippin has had since he was with Mary. And soon they were laughing and talking gaily as they went about the streets, heedless of the many glances that men gave them. Before long, they found themselves in a throng going towards the great gate. There Pippin went up much in the esteem of Virgil, for when he spoke his name and the password, the guard saluted him and let him pass through. And what was more, he allowed him to take his companion with him.
00:46:32
Speaker
So they're having fun. They're laughing. They're giggling. They're holding hands, frolicking through the street. And Pippin is taking him on this fun, exciting outing out past the gate where normally kids aren't allowed because he's flashing his cool passwords and stuff because Beragon did a good job with the employee onboarding.
00:46:53
Speaker
I love the way that Pippin addresses this kid because it's so obviously the 20 something talking to the tween. The 20 something who primarily works with 40 year olds. Yeah. And is like, you know, constantly every day gets the, you know, when you're older, you'll get this gets treated like a kid and is now like, ha, I'm going to also use the when you're older, you get this.
00:47:20
Speaker
but I'm not gonna treat them like a kid because I know what that's like. Yeah. And then I i also kind of feel like Pippin definitely is saying these things and then turning around and going, what the fuck? I sound like my dad.
00:47:38
Speaker
Which I do sometimes, I will say things to my little brother and I'll be like, good god I sound like mom, what the fuck? Sometimes I will do something and then go, oh my god, I feel the spirit of my mother moving through me. If I spend my own American dollars on lime flavored seltzer, I go, oh my god, I'm becoming my mom.
00:47:58
Speaker
She's one of those people who thinks that water tastes boring, so she just doesn't drink it. That has never made sense to me because we need water to live. We are instinctually inclined to like water, so I don't know what's wrong with her, but if I find myself reaching for the bottle of sparkling lime water at Trader Joe's, I'm going, oh my God, but these things happen. There's all of this- The hint of lime toasty dose of water.
00:48:27
Speaker
No, the Hint of Lime Tostitos are so good. I specifically love that the it we are not sponsored by the Tostitos company, obviously. But my favorite thing about that packaging is that it says Hint of Lime Flavored Triangles, which is just the most American way of labeling a food that, you know, we legally can't call it tortilla chips, but we can call them flavored triangles.
00:48:57
Speaker
And I will slam so many of those fucking flavor triangles. I love them. Until my tongue starts feeling a little bit funny and I go, oh yeah, I should drink water. I'm glad it's not just meats. They also hurt my tongue a little bit too. But I'm trying to make a serious point about war and youth and existence. And the child soldier that's there? Oh, I fucking miss the child soldier. We can circle back to that. But the point that I was- No, Bergal. Bergal's the child soldier. Because he's 10.
00:49:26
Speaker
Yes, but I wanted to say the thing. I'm sorry. So the thing that is contrasting against all of their cute little frolicking hand in hand through the city is what they are going to see, what Pippin is taking him to look at is the reinforcements that are coming to defend the city that have been summoned by the giant flames that shot up earlier. And there is a very, very, very long list of who all these people are. And I don't fucking care. There's a lot of them. It doesn't matter.
00:49:55
Speaker
but The point is there's not nearly enough of them and they're being faced with, and I'm not sure how much Pippin understands this. It wasn't super clear from the narration or if this was just other omniscient narrator talking, but the people who are showing up, we know that it's not enough to defend the city. There's like 3000 of them altogether.
00:50:24
Speaker
And so there's even in the midst of all of this energy and excitement of all these people showing up, there is this sinking feeling that things are going to go really badly. If I may return to a quote from earlier that Gandalf said to Pippin, you may. Tomorrow will be certain to bring worse than today for many days to come.
00:50:48
Speaker
to which my response was to quote Pippin from back in fellowship, Gandalf has been saying many cheerful things like that. And to bookend that with another Gandalf quote.
00:51:00
Speaker
When Pippin goes back to their lodging and sees Gandalf at the end of the day, Gandalf says, you should sleep in a bed while you still may. At the sunrise, I shall take you to Lord Denethor again. Know when the summons comes, not at sunrise. The darkness has begun. There will be no dawn. And that's the end of the chapter. Which before we move on, I have two last things for this chapter, which is I have ah The only person person I want to note from the reinforcements is a man named Forlong the Fat, who just reminds me of a particular historical figure ah called Fugger the Rich,
00:51:42
Speaker
which just just feels right. I don't have any tangents about Fugger the Rich. He was a merchant in the 1400s. presumably he was very rich. I did enjoy that this fat guy was obviously beloved because we know how I feel about Bomber and how dirty the Hobbit did him. Because every line was the dwarves did something cool and then Bomber, who was very fat, sat behind and did nothing. So at least this fat guy everyone loves and he gets to do cool things. Perfect. And Burgill and Pippin run back holding hands.
00:52:23
Speaker
which I just love because you know physical touch between masculine folks of any kind is so discouraged. And it's ah in our society, in our modern society, it's just nice to see like a societal difference here. But also as we look at this through the lens of our society, these two people who are at their core kids, because as we get it noted here that Pippin still isn't of age. He is still like in his late teens for a Hobbit. And so these two people who are trying to be men, trying to be seen as adults are still okay with providing this level of like physical comfort and joy to each other.
00:53:22
Speaker
Right? And that they are still okay. Channeling a little bit of that childhood energy and being the children that they are, despite being a Mecospa battle for their very existence.
00:53:37
Speaker
And that's one of the hardest things about being a teen. That's one of the hardest needs for teens to get met because they are so excited to be adults and are under so much pressure to become adults that it's really hard to find a way to get those basic needs met of playing and feeling comforted and just being a kid a little bit, that's that's really hard. And even more so, if you are about to face an attack on your city and potentially see all of your loved ones die and you've been separated from your home on this super dangerous quest and
00:54:21
Speaker
You know, they're in this really tough moment, but they're having this lovely connection with each other. And if this kid fucking dies, or if his dad dies, I will be so mad. They probably will die. And I will be very angry about it, but I will still hold out a glimmer of hope that they'll be okay.
00:54:41
Speaker
The horrors of war. If I see this dad like weeping, holding his dying son or something, I'm going to have to put the book down. And that will be the end of our podcast. Anyway, do we have anything else for chapter one? No, I would very much love to move on to the passing of the Grey Company. Chapter two, the passing of the Grey Company.
00:55:10
Speaker
Is that your impression of the audiobook narrator, or is that just a you thing? That's just a me thing. i The audiobook I was listening to was um the Andy Serkis narrated one, and one of these days I should listen to the one narrated by, I think it's Rob Inglis, but regardless.
00:55:31
Speaker
We are once again back in time because these are not two chapters dealing with the same characters as we had in two towers. We'd have like a group of two, a group of two. During that first half, we'd go from the hunters to the hunted. Now we are back with Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Merry. Yeah. And we are directly back in time to right when Gandalf left.
00:56:03
Speaker
And Aragorn is leading the four of them with Theoden to go on the next stage of their journey. And one of the lines Here he's he's sort of talking about like what his plan might be. He's he hasn't discussed exactly what it is yet, but he goes, but for myself and any that will go with me. And he gets interrupted by Legolas, who's I for one and and Gimli with him, said the dwarf. Well, for myself, says said Aragorn, it is dark before me. And I loved this little bit in part because, you know, in our gay little reading, I can't tell if Gimli
00:56:48
Speaker
in his speaking about himself in the third person, is talking about going with Aragorn or if he's talking about going with Legolas. Aww, yeah. That's an ambiguous little phrase. I like it. I'll always choose the gay interpretation. I'm going to choose the gay interpretation of absolutely every time. And then Aragorn responds to this with like, you know, basically like, I love your enthusiasm, but let's not be hasty. And I think at this point he had already thought about even before being reminded of the paths of the dead. um He knew that there was going to have to be some sort of drastic action in the rest of this chapter and the rest of this book to make what needs to happen happen.
00:57:36
Speaker
yeah And also, you know, Mary says that like, he's supposed to go with Theoden and talk to Theoden about the Shire. And Aragorn says, I don't know that you're gonna be able to do that. Do not look for mirth at the ending. It will be long, I fear. Ertheoden sits at ease again in Medu Seld. Many hopes will wither in this bitter spring. Which again felt like a bit of a callback to Bilbo's poem.
00:58:06
Speaker
in fellowship in Rivendell. Do that line about when winter comes without a spring that I shall ever see. Yeah. But anyway. So they're all riding out together as a company with Faden and all the rest. And then they're being overtaken by writers coming up from behind them. So Eragorn puts Mary on the ground like a piece of luggage Or like I was envisioning when you pick up a cat off the counter and put it on the ground, just it puts him down. Oh my God. And then he runs to go defend Theoden. But turns out it's friends. It's the Dinedane looking for Aragorn. Halbarad, maybe? Sure. I'm always the first one to try to say these names. And then I say them very uncertainly. But he brought 30 men, which is fun. Yeah.
00:59:00
Speaker
He brought 30 men, which is better than nothing. It's all they could gather in a hurry. And one of them has- And also two guys, two extra dudes, Elidan and Elrohir. I miss those dudes. What's their deal? They are the sons of Elrond and the brothers of Arwen. Ooh. Oh, are they the ones who deliver the special little present? They're the ones who deliver the, remember the paths of the deadline.
00:59:29
Speaker
Albarad delivers Arwen's gift. Yes. So they talk about the paths of the dead. which We'll find out what those are very shortly.
00:59:38
Speaker
And Arwen. It's presumably like a banner, like a battle flag that she made in secret. And it's all rolled up now, but I assume it will be unveiled at some climactic moment. And she says, she sends a message um with ending with farewell, Elfstone. And I know that that's the translation of his name, Elisaur.
01:00:01
Speaker
But we haven't been horny enough on this episode yet. And so my brain went, is he called Elfstone because he um gets it rock hard for elves?
01:00:17
Speaker
That might be a bit of a stretch, but I'll take it. Listen, people have had weird epithets for less. Yeah. and There's also things you can do with the phrase, I'll take it. I'll just leave that thing.
01:00:32
Speaker
Anyway, so they get gifts. They get back to the Hornburg. Legolas and Gimli want Mary to look around and see where they fought and, you know, tell him the story of what happened and battle. And Gimli references his little game with Legolas there, scorekeeping.
01:00:52
Speaker
Yeah, the battle is definitely a word for what they were doing. And then he's saying, you know, come and see how it was. If you want that, you can listen to our Helm's Deep episode. And there are caves, Mary, caves of wonder. Shall we visit them, Legolas? Do you think? Which I just imagine him like tugging on Legolas' sleeve and batting his eyelashes. And Legolas goes, no, I promised you that we would go on this trip when the war is over. If a day of peace and freedom comes again, we are not doing this right now. But Gimli had to try. He had to get back in those caves and it didn't work, but I respect the hustle he tried. And despite Gimli's enthusiasm, Mary is having a terrible time. He misses Pippin and he feels like a burden, which is not fun. That's fair. And we have a parallel between our two hobbits because Mary gets called to the bar.
01:01:52
Speaker
He becomes an Esquire, what else am I supposed to think? No, that's fair, that's very fair. But he swears fealty to Theoden, and serviced to Theoden, and says a line that I know we both picked out of this, because it goes to our rules of fantasy. Yep, you can go ahead and read the line. As a father you shall be to me, said Mary.
01:02:20
Speaker
for a little while, said Theoden. It's fine. I'm fine. What role of fantasy does this come back to? It all comes back to Beowulf, baby. This is this is very wig off and Beowulf coded. Yeah. And. I think that line from Theoden. Is an indication that he knows he's not coming home. This.
01:02:48
Speaker
ge He ends up talking to Mary and taking the time to ride with and talk to Mary now, rather than waiting for the end of the war and for them to both be back sitting at Medu Seld, because I think he has a feeling that he's not going to survive this battle. Much like Frodo, he is going into this with the understanding that his actions are going to save his people at the cost of his own life. He was a good king. He was a good king.
01:03:30
Speaker
ah damn um but So they all get ready to ride. The Rangers kind of keep to themselves, but they brought Aragorn's horse. It has him all ready to go, which is nice. And we get names of all the horses. One of them is named Snowmane, which is very, my little pony, very cute. Lots of horse details because we just love ponies here, but Aragorn is not looking good and Mary is sort of taking him in and observing. So startling was the change that he saw in him as if in one night many years had fallen on his head. Grim was his face gray hued and weary and so
01:04:12
Speaker
This may in part be because Aragorn has decided that he's going to take the paths of the dead. And Mary doesn't understand what's going on. He felt very small and he was puzzled and depressed by all these gloomy words. Well, and it's not just that he's chosen to take the paths of the dead. It's while everyone was resting in the Hornburg, Aragorn went up into the tower with Halberad.
01:04:42
Speaker
And he looked into the Palantir.
01:04:47
Speaker
And when he tells Legolas and Gimli about this, Legolas and Gimli are shocked and angry and concerned. And Aragorn was like, technically it belongs to me. Like this is a power that I have, but just barely.
01:05:08
Speaker
But I saw that if we don't get to Gondor in 10 days, it's gonna fall. Yeah. And Gimli's like, there's literally no way we can do that. And Aragorn goes, well, and here's why I look like this. Yeah. um And he tells them the prophecy of Malbeth the Seer about the paths of the dead.
01:05:36
Speaker
And we get a little history dump about men of Dunharrow and the the Kingdom of the Mountains who swore fealty to Isildur and swore that they'd fight for him. And then in the battle against Sauron, they refused. And so Isildur cursed them to never be at rest until they fulfilled their oath. And here is an interesting juxtaposition.
01:06:05
Speaker
to the living dead that we see in fellowship. Because these were men who fought against the men of Karndu and the Witch-King of Angmar and against the forces of Morgoth or Melkor, the forces of evil, and who ultimately now in death are themselves a sort of evil, a something that should not exist, that should not be here. And now we have men who refused to fight against the forces of evil, who are now trapped in undeath.
01:06:48
Speaker
until they serve the forces of good. Yeah, that's a really good contrast. I like it. And Gimli uses this very serious moment for a real zinger where he says, I hope that the forgotten people will not have forgotten how to fight for otherwise I see not why we should trouble with them. Yeah, I think they remember how to fight. I think that's kind of the point of the curse. You're good there, buddy. So they decide ah that Gimli and Legolas and Aragorn and the Grey Company are going to head to Dunharrow to take the paths of the dead ah by the fastest possible path. Meanwhile, Mary's going with Theoden also to Dunharrow, but through the mountains, so slower. So they reach Dunharrow the next day and they find
01:07:40
Speaker
a one So why is she there? Because she's not in Mediceld. They refer to her as being in her exile. Why is she in this place?
01:07:53
Speaker
When the king left Ederos, he left her in charge, but instructed them. um All of those who are not going to fight were going to Dunharrow because it's a more fortified location. Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. So in the same way that ah they're sending the women and children and the old and infirm out of Minas Tirith, as is mentioned um back in in the first chapter, they they did the same with Eteros because they knew Eteros would be a target. But it's it's not defensible, particularly with all of the fighting men gone. That makes sense. So they find Dunharrow, or they find Eowyn in Dunharrow. And I regard an Eowyn
01:08:49
Speaker
like get into it. Yeah, she is kind of, she's so, she's got complexity in this chapter and this is what I was hoping for her and hopefully there will be more. But she's kind of given Aragorn a look and at first I was thinking, okay, is she just kind of making eyes at him again? If she is, I can't blame her. But they have a little bit of banter and he says what his plan is and she says, well, there's no road that goes that way. So I don't know what you're planning to do with a tone that like she understands that he's implying he's going to take the paths of the dead, but she doesn't like it. And he just gently reminds her how much older he is than her, which was both a sort of conversational rhetorical takedown and a slightly
01:09:44
Speaker
toning down the flirty energy. He says, nay lady said he, I am not a stray for I walked in this land air you were born to grace it. Like, yeah. It's like, listen, I'm so fucking old. Don't don't start with me. What was the the like R slash relationship style post I sent you the other day, which was like my M 88.
01:10:12
Speaker
friend m71's niece f24 and my girlfriend elf 2400 something really um yeah so they have their little tense moment but then they have two more really intense discussions after that where he's getting ready to leave and she calls to him and insists that she follow him into battle because she's a shield maiden and not a dry nurse and he keeps telling her to stay home where it's safe stay in the castle this isn't your job this isn't your responsibility
01:11:00
Speaker
And she answered, all your words are but to say, you are a woman and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honor, you have leave to be burned in the house for the men will need it no more. But I am of the house of Aoral and not a serving woman. I can ride and wield blade and I do not fear either pain or death. What do you fear lady? He asked.
01:11:21
Speaker
a Cage, she said. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire. Oh, yes, Aylin! Go get him! And yet you counseled me not to adventure on the road that I had chosen because it is perilous. And she's like, we're talking about the difference between certain death in a place called the Paths of the Fucking Dead, where no one has ever come back from, to a battle you might win.
01:11:52
Speaker
And this is where he clear he hasn't revealed his whole plan and everything that he's seen to her, obviously. um The other piece that I had to give Aragorn the point for was when he reminds her that she's in charge. Did you not accept the charge to govern the people until their Lord's return? If you had not been chosen, then some martial or captain would have been set in the same place. And he could not ride away from his charge. Were he weary of it or no?
01:12:23
Speaker
And then he sort of undermines it like when he ends up talking to her later when she asks to come along with him again. And he's like, I would have to ask Theoden or Amherst permission before I let you do that. I was like, God damn it, dude.
01:12:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's stupid. And he's trying to tell her like, this isn't your responsibility. You know, and in addition to all the leadership stuff, like, you know, I am a big brave hero boy and I have to do this alone. And then she counters with, yeah, nobody is forced to do this. All of your companions who are going with you are going because they love you and they believe in the mission. So why can't I go? And then there's also some charged because they love you energy. I'm like, okay, that's Yeah, I see the straight reading there. And the straight reading is stupid and baseless. like I get what's trying to be implied that I can also because I love you. I want to follow you into battle. But no, you've interacted twice in your life. And there's a lot of complicated dynamics going on here. That's I'm not even that's not even on my radar as a legitimate part of their dynamic. But I see I can put the straight goggles on and see it.
01:13:36
Speaker
But she keeps asking, she's determined until the very moment that he rides off to go to the paths of the dead. And I respect that and I love that for her. And although he did have a point with the whole leadership and this is your responsibility thing, he did lose a lot of points with me because he kept coming back to you're a lady, you should stay home." And she goes, so you're saying that it's just because I'm a lady. Not just in that quote that I read, there's a couple of times where she's just just like, it's because I'm a woman, isn't it? And yeah, it kind of is. So he's nobody's perfect, but I know Aowin's going to show up again later and I'm excited to see what that is. Yes.
01:14:24
Speaker
but then they head off for the paths of the dead, and they eventually reach a cave entrance, which the horses are not thrilled about. And this felt like the reverse of Moria, where Aragorn is now not eager, but resigned and set on this course of action, and Gimli is hesitant and gripped by fear the whole time. yeah um And they end up coming to this big empty space in the cave,
01:14:53
Speaker
And it describes on multiple occasions, like how scared Gimli is and the fear that's just constantly building within him. um And he's at the back of the group and he comes out and he sees Aragorn basically praying before the skeleton of a warrior in a gilded hobbrek with a jeweled belt and golden helm before some door that the guy couldn't open.
01:15:21
Speaker
And Aragorn's like, this is an interesting door with all sorts of secrets behind it. We're not going to worry about that onwards.
01:15:31
Speaker
Keep your hordes and your secrets hidden in the accursed years. Speed only, we ask. Let us pass and then come. I summon you to the stone of Arag. And so in some ways, I guess this is this is him showing that like he's he's not concerned with any Treasure, he's not there to grave rob. He's there to make them fu fulfill their oath. And the torches all blow out because of course they do for maximum drama. And Gimli, it says like Gimli's losing time almost in his fear. He's not sure whether it's been a day or a week. And then finally, when they come out of another gateway on the other side of the mountains um into a rail, which is ah yeah like a little ravine,
01:16:20
Speaker
he's sort of surprised to see what time it is that not even a full day has passed um and goes to find his boyfriend. yeah Who then immediately is like, they're here.
01:16:35
Speaker
Cause he, with his magical mystical best guest boy elf eyes can see the shapes of the dead men following them. Yeah, because they have a fucking army of the dead amassing behind them, and it's really cool. they And they they end up like writing for the Stone of Eric, which is out past the Paths of the Dead, past a bunch of like little villages who are having absolutely none of this bullshit. Yeah.
01:17:04
Speaker
The king of the dead, the king of the dead has come upon us. Bells were ringing far below, and all men fled before the face of Aragorn. But the gray company in their haste rode like hunters until their horses were stumbling with weariness. And thus, just ere midnight, and in a darkness as black as the caverns in the mountains, they came at last to the hill of Erith.
01:17:27
Speaker
And this gave me the vibes of bells were ringing in the dale, the men looked up with faces pale, the dragons ire more fierce than fire, laid low their towers and houses frail. Tolkien's got a vibe. but ah And listen, that vibe works for him. I love it. Kind of a rumbly more than a buzzy person. You know, if there's a time and a place. They all have their applications.
01:17:55
Speaker
Aragorn calls out to the dead following, Oathbreakers, why have ye come? And he tells them that he will hold their oath fulfilled when Sauron is defeated, because he is Elessar, Isildur's heir of Gondor. And with that he bade Halberad unfurl the great standard which he had brought, and behold, it was black, and if there was any device upon it, it was hidden in the darkness.
01:18:24
Speaker
And I think we can probably infer that there is a device of some sort, though. Yeah. What was on the circuits of the guards at the White Tower, Sam? Oh, I don't remember. Was it a tree? They were a field of black with a white tree and seven stars. um So we may be able to infer some of what's on this banner. They sleep rather fitfully, you know, amongst the fucking dead.
01:18:50
Speaker
h and rise the next morning and ride on even though tired. And as they're riding, they find only abandoned land. And the next day there came no dawn and the gray company passed on into the darkness of the storm of Mordor and were lost to mortal sight. But the dead followed them. And that's the end of the chapter. And I thought of
01:19:22
Speaker
Two things, which was Johnny Cash's The Man Comes Around, and what it was drawn from, which was Revelations chapter six ah verse eight, and well, verses seven to eight technically. I heard the voice ho of the fourth beast say, come and see. And I looked, and behold, a pale horse, and his name that sat on him was death, and hell followed with him That's the vibe that we're giving going into chapter three. Yeah. I don't really think I have anything more to add to that. That's hard to follow up, but. Yeah, yeah I mean, it's hell there. It's kind of hard to follow. Yeah, there. are These are two very intense, very beefy chapters, but there are really exciting start to this last book. Yes, I am am very excited to get into get into the book and get into
01:20:23
Speaker
everything that comes along with this first half. The first half of the book is very much the epic battle that we've been building to and then we'll get back eventually to Fredo and Sam and their quest and the conclusion of the quest. So do you have anything else you want to discuss for the beginning of The Return of the King?
01:20:47
Speaker
Yeah, actually at the very beginning, before the story even starts, we get, you know, in one of those first couple of pages, we get the ring poem again, which hits real different at the beginning of this book. Now that we've had two books worth of exposition and ring corruption and creepiness, just every time I read it, it just gets darker and scarier and more intense. And it's good.
01:21:18
Speaker
And and i think I think that's because you have the separately published books, whereas my copy is um all of the books in one volume. Mine are separately, they're separate volumes, but the page numbers,
01:21:35
Speaker
are as if it was one volume, which makes it incredibly annoying to track my progress on Storygraph because I'll type in page 758, which is really like the 23rd page of the book, but then it gets all fucked up because it says the book isn't that long. It's a pain in the butt, but yeah, they are separate volumes. So I get multiple repetitions of the poem. Um, but it's a fun reminder to have every time.
01:22:05
Speaker
i'm I'm excited to see where this goes. Well, I know where this goes, but I'm excited to revisit where this goes. I think this is this has actually been the book that I, one, have read the least out of the trilogy, um and two, have it's been the longest since I've read this one. I revisit fellowship you know a fair amount.
01:22:30
Speaker
but I don't end up making it all the way through every time. So I'm excited to make it all the way through on the journey with my Bestie. And if other people want to continue joining us on our journey, where can they find us, Bestie? You can find us wherever pods are cast. We are on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and YouTube and probably a couple of other places.
01:22:57
Speaker
whatever podcast platform you are currently listening to, ah to us on, you can continue listening to us there, subscribe to our podcast, leave us a five star or written review. If the podcast platform you're listening on allows that sort of thing, it helps us with, uh, the rhythms of the 2000 democratic presidential candidate Al Gore. Um,
01:23:24
Speaker
Get a B+. And you can also find us on the social media. Specifically on Instagram is where I'm most active, but you can also find us on Tumblr, TikTok, and X, all under the same handle, fanapppod, F-A-N-A-P-P-P-O-D. And you can always send us an email at thefandomapprentice at gmail.com. And I think that's it.
01:23:54
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for hanging out, everybody. We'll see you next time. We will see you next time. Bye. The Fan of Apprentice is produced and edited by Rin and Sam. Our music was composed and performed by James, and our art is by Kasey Turgen. This podcast is created for non-commercial entertaining purposes. Many themes expressed therein are our own and are not reflected with the means of any other person or organization. The content discussed is the property of the token estate and is used here under fair use.