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Ep 25- Fell Deeds Awake and Fell Beasts Asleep
24 Plays8 months ago
We back up to the "last stage" before the battle to check in on Merry and the Rohirrim and how they make it to the Pelennor Fields! Also discussed: hope, the death of a good king, the death of a bad king, children's hospitals, pterosaurs and other things that fly, and Shakespeare!
Send us your best Hobbit band names!
Covers Book V Chapter V: The Ride of the Rohirrim and Book V Chapter VI: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
Recommended
Transcript
High School Band Names
00:00:00
Speaker
I'll add it to my giant four page long band names document. Is this a real document that you maintain? Because I would believe it if if you did have one. This is genuinely a Google Doc that I have had since high school. That is delightful. Are there any really good ones on there? I mean, I guess you don't have to say the really good ones just in case you ever use them, but some honorable mentions. Let's see. Hang on. Let me find it. Yes. Bestie Lore.
00:00:28
Speaker
I've pulled band names off of that band names doc. It's been useful. ah Human rights. w but W R I T E S. No room for Jesus. like Safety third. a Game of moans. Ooh, edgy. the Purple sheep of the family. Bad Samaritan.
00:00:54
Speaker
The long end of the stick. It's a lot of like, Fucking with classic idioms. Yeah. But they're all fun. I could, I wouldn't be surprised if I showed up to a house show and somebody was like, yeah, wear the bees' elbows. Be like, okay, sure. Four nerds in a cello. You'd need a cello player for that one to work, although it would be equally funny if there was no cello, so people would just be waiting for the cello to show up. Exactly.
00:01:24
Speaker
If the Hobbits had a band, what would their band name be? Oh, that's a tricky one because we know that I have many gifts, but naming things is not one of them. So I'm not sure, do you have ideas for Hobbit band names? No, honestly, I don't. So instead, I think I'll just transition straight into talking you about the book.
The Fandom Apprentice Podcast Intro
00:02:06
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Fandom Apprentice. I'm one of your hosts, Rin, and I read Lord of the Rings quite a bit as a child and fell in love and decided to share that with my co-host now as people pushing 30.
00:02:34
Speaker
way to just make it not depressing, but really just emphasize the passage of time. I'm Sam. I'm the other one. I have not read Lord of the Rings before, but I'm catching up. We are making swift progress through these books. And these two chapters, I feel like are pretty snappy. A lot happens in them, but they're not super long. Yeah, I agree. um It was actually kind of nice. I was listening to the audio book and I was like, is that it? Yeah. Are we done?
00:03:03
Speaker
ah The last couple of chapters I was listening to for like four years. Do you have any general thoughts or observations before we just get into it? We're recording this shortly before we release the first of our Beowulf episodes.
00:03:20
Speaker
which listeners, once this is released, you'll have been able to hear our Beowulf episodes in between our coverage of Two Towers and Return of the King. If you haven't heard those yet, you can go back in our feed. But man, there was some Beowulf vibes in the second chapter here. Oh yeah, I noted at least one thing specifically where I was like, okay, I see you. It's very fun. But yeah, we'll talk a little bit more about that when we get to it.
00:03:51
Speaker
Um, did you have anything else general before we dive straight in? No, I'm, I'm ready to just get started. So we may be afflicted by the passage of time, but Tolkien isn't here because we dive back in time as we are wanted to do in this book, to marry and the Rohirrim.
Analysis of 'The Ride of the Rohirrim'
00:04:12
Speaker
Yes. This is chapter five, the ride of the Rohirrim. So.
00:04:18
Speaker
I know we spent a lot of time in the previous books, like focusing on the timing of everything. And I just, as I was starting these notes, that did not have the energy for that. So I looked up timelines that people have created out there. This chapter,
00:04:40
Speaker
spans over the course of several days. But as they enter Druidan Forest, that's happening at the same time as Faramir is being driven out of Osgiliath by the writers and Frodo is captured by the orcs, like all in the same day. Oh damn, okay. Just to like orient our timing together. So by the end of this chapter, we have moved past the timing that we know what's happening with Frodo.
00:05:09
Speaker
And we are catching up with what happened last chapter with the siege of Gondor. Also, looking at Druidan Forest, which we'll get into more shortly, we have another instance here of the names of the places telling you exactly what's in the place. Oh, I didn't realize that. Because Druidan means wild man. Oh, yeah, that would make sense. Yeah.
00:05:38
Speaker
but Anyway, Mary's been writing for four days and he fucking feels like shit. Yeah, he's having a terrible time. Dernhelm, who if we cast our minds back to what for you all was two weeks ago, for us was many weeks ago. I was suspicious of Dernhelm before and I still am not getting great vibes from him. And Elfhelm are both ignoring Mary and pretending not to hear him when he talks.
00:06:02
Speaker
And he is just feeling completely ignored and useless. Not good for his whole existential crisis. But at this point, there are less than a day's ride away from Minas Tirith, which if we remember the original estimate for this ride was a week. So they've basically been going nonstop. It says at some point that like Dernhelm doesn't talk to anybody, but there is some understanding between Dernhelm and Elphhelm. And I want to know what understanding is happening here. Because spoilers,
00:06:34
Speaker
ah Dernhelm is Eowyn. Oh, I thought we were going to save that reveal for later, but yes. Well, because I need to talk about it now. Okay. Okay. That's fine. Yes. Dernhelm is Eowyn. I was wrong to be suspicious of Dernhelm, but yes, you were right. I mean, you were correct to be suspicious of Dernhelm because Dernhelm definitely was not actually Dernhelm.
00:06:59
Speaker
But I want to know what sort of understanding is happening here. Does Elfhelm know that she's Eowyn? What rank does Sternhelm hold? Were they fucking? like Why would you just ignore this random dude you're bringing into battle? right That you don't know?
00:07:22
Speaker
is turn home a persona that AON has had previously because I know there's a lot of chaos happening with battle. But if a ring random guy you've never met before who refuses to talk just suddenly shows up in your company,
00:07:39
Speaker
you know, maybe that would be an issue. And also if this is a persona that she's maintained for a long time, how did she get away with it without talking? Has Elphim always been her accomplice? I don't know. That's, you raised very good questions that hadn't occurred to me until this moment.
00:07:54
Speaker
Right. And, you know, what understanding could possibly be in place that allows Elfhelm to just, like, ignore this random officer who's there under his command, random rider who's there under his command.
Tolkien's Depiction of Wild Men
00:08:07
Speaker
We don't know necessarily that Dernhelm is an officer or not. And ignore the fact that he, that he, Dernhelm, is bringing a random hobbit into battle. Mm-hmm.
00:08:22
Speaker
Like where is where is this close order military discipline that we've almost come to expect from the Rohirrim here? here there So i I feel like Elfhelm definitely knows that if not necessarily that Dernhelm is Eowyn, but that Dernhelm is someone significantly more important.
00:08:48
Speaker
Yeah, we haven't really seen Eowyn have friends or a suspiciously close lady's maid who might be her accomplice in this kind of thing, like we would see in other fantasy novels. So she's just basically doing this completely on her own. So yeah, I don't know what the deal is between her and Elle Film.
00:09:06
Speaker
i'm I'm sure there's probably supplementary writings somewhere, but I'm not recalling any at this point. Also, it's been significantly longer since I read any supplementary writings, just but anyway. so Mary's like feeling kind of lonely because nobody's talking to him and says, Mary felt small, unwanted, and lonely. and i My notes say, oh, look, it's me on a Tuesday. Oh, that's me.
00:09:36
Speaker
so um And he's being treated very badly. Elfhelm, who we were just giving a lot of credit to, is also just kind of being a jerk. He literally trips over Merry and Merry responds by saying, I am not a tree root, sir, he said, nor a bag, but a bruised hobbit. The least you can do in amends is to tell me what is afoot. Literally tripping over him and not acknowledging it. That sucks.
00:10:02
Speaker
Well, and then later he says, you know, pack yourself up, master bag, which is funny if only because we also have master Baggins and Bag End. And I am strongly relating with Mary here um with wanting to know what's going on. A great weight of dread was on him. Weighting was unbearable. He longed to know what was going to happen.
00:10:31
Speaker
And i I don't do well when I don't have all of the information. if like I can tell that people know things and aren't telling me. If I like feel as, I get very anxious about it. listen So very much relating to Mary here. yeah And so, of course, in Hobbit fashion, he sneaks up on the War Council and listens in on Hanborigan and Theoden and Aemir.
00:10:58
Speaker
isn Yeah, there's been some drums in the forest and we learned that they are the, are they the Woeses? How do you pronounce their name? I'm going to go with Woeses. Sure, they're the Woeses. They're the Wildmen. Yes. And I this is, is this the first time we're hearing of them specifically?
00:11:23
Speaker
Yes and no. We have a a note here, Mary remembers the puckle men of Dunharrow. This is one of the people who from from the race of men that made the puckle men. So this has been, their existence has been alluded to, but almost as like a lost people. Yeah.
00:11:51
Speaker
And they are very reclusive, but basically what Mary overhears is they're offering their services to Theoden and they're discussing what aid they can provide, that they'll pass messages along and bring news. And I was not totally vibing with the way the wild man was described. It just, it didn't feel great. It was kind of, ooh, this primitive man who doesn't speak the same language as everyone else very well. And it just felt kind of icky and it's talking about how he's old and weird and uncouth. But I did appreciate that he stands up for himself when Amr questions the accuracy of his information.
00:12:41
Speaker
And he says, wild men are wild, free, but not children. And, you know, just because he doesn't speak their language perfectly doesn't mean that. Theoden and Amr can forget that he is the leader of his people and he knows things that they don't. And there is at least one time where they interrupt him and go, wow, he's so smart in the really patronizing, racist way. And he basically goes, bitch, shut up. I am still talking. Do you want this information I have or not? And I did appreciate that at least he calls out the weirdness of the situation. Yeah, there's definitely some like
00:13:23
Speaker
issues of race and how Tolkien is describing this character, but in addition to the sort of assumptions of racism that we're making here, Tolkien is also drawing on bits of folklore and mythology from throughout Europe, which do mention like wild men living in the woods and people who have been forgotten by time And usually like people who are slightly fey or slightly different, who choose to live untouched by the modern world.
00:14:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's fair. I think I'm just very cynical about any time Tolkien introduces a new group of people. Oh, Tolkien has every time Tolkien introduces a new group of people, especially if they are quote unquote uncivilized or evil, I think we very much should be aware of how they're being described. All of the humans that we've seen helping Mordor are basically described as non-white. Yeah. You know, so I think we should be very aware of the prejudices that Tolkien is putting onto the page. But the wild men will lead them down a secret path that was made in times of old by Gondorians.
00:14:56
Speaker
Hundreds and hundreds of years ago and has since been forgotten. And I've been doing another playthrough of Baldur's Gate 3 and I wrote the word gondorian. And my mind went like the dudes being held prisoner in the steel watch factory. I know that's the gondians. But that is very similar. That and makes sense.
00:15:20
Speaker
Theoden is talking about the soldiers that he's bringing through, the number of people that they need to bring through this path. And it's a score of scores counted 10 times in five, which I read to be 20 times 20. So a score of scores.
00:15:35
Speaker
times 15, counted 10 times in five, which is 6,000 soldiers, which is what Theoden had said ah that he could muster to the messenger from ro from Gondor. That makes sense. I didn't even try to calculate that out when he said it. So they're talking about also the reward that Theoden will give to the wild men if they succeed. He's saying, we'll give you rich rewards. It'll be so great. And their leader basically says that dead men can't give the living any gifts so let's slow your roll there and basically if they win the war they just want to be left alone and not hunted for sport which i think is a very reasonable request i agree leave us our space leave us our land yeah don't murder us for funsies please and it'll take them probably about 10 hours to move everyone through the path
00:16:32
Speaker
And Mary speaks off. Yeah. And they continue on down the road. They get a status report about the attack on ministerial. So they're kind of getting up to speed on what's happening elsewhere. And they also have found, scouts have found two dead men and two dead horses. One of them is possibly Higron, ah who was holding the red arrow before, and he's still holding it, but he's been beheaded. So that makes identification a little difficult and also that he was clearly killed to send a message.
00:17:06
Speaker
And based on the direction that they were fleeing, they can figure out that they never delivered their message. So Denethor doesn't know that they're coming and it's a whole mess. Yeah. Um, Dan tells Theoden that the orcs have broken through the walls, but that they like, they have no real regard.
Rohirrim's Strategy at Minas Tirith
00:17:26
Speaker
So even though Denethor doesn't necessarily know they're coming,
00:17:31
Speaker
when the Rohirrims slam into the orcs' unprotected rear, then it will do a lot of damage. I bet. We also get like a little more casual magic here from this dude named Widfara who says that the heir brings him messages. Yeah.
00:17:58
Speaker
that which on the one hand that could be like small casual magics. It could also be somebody who is like just very well attuned to the land around them um and is reading little signs like yeah changes in the patterns of the clouds above them and how the grass moves and like knowing perhaps that, oh, the wind changes at roughly the same time every day. Or, you know, the air starts to feel like this before a storm. So it could be one or the other or some combination thereof. Yeah. And he thinks that the wind, hopefully, is going to blow away the clouds that are blotting out the sun.
00:18:50
Speaker
and they get to the city, to be able to see the city of Minas Tirith. There's a line in here, I think it's a little bit earlier, but I have written, this was the last stage before the battle.
00:19:04
Speaker
and she Man, the professor is real fond of saying shit like this. Yeah, we just we can just ignore that at this point. you Sure, professor, whatever you say. But they do reach- This actually may be the last stage before the battle. They they reach the outer walls of Minas Tirith. They have the element of surprise slamming into the unprotected rear, as you so eloquently said. Thank you. and They make pretty quick work of the orcs, and the Witch King is so far I don't wanna jump direct into them charging in. Okay, because I don't have any more notes before that. Okay, I do. All right. Just, they they see Minas Tirith before them. It says, but the king sat upon Snowmane motionless, gazing upon the agony of Minas Tirith, as if stricken suddenly by anguish or by dread.
00:19:59
Speaker
He seemed to shrink down, cowed by age. Mary himself felt as if a great weight of horror and doubt had settled on him. His heart beat slowly, time seemed poised in uncertainty. They were too late. Too late was worse than never. ah Which echoes a line from earlier where A. Amer says, need Brooks no delay, yet late is better than never.
00:20:25
Speaker
So they're seeing the city burn and they think they didn't make it in time. Yeah. Right. And so this brings us right to the end of the last chapter with the darkness before the break of dawn. And then they hear the giant crash of grand on the gates and there's light on the horizon. When Farah was right, the clouds were blown away.
00:20:55
Speaker
and Theoden hears Grand break the gates of the city, which is the sign to him that somebody is still resisting. And so even though there's burning, the city has not totally fallen yet. And that is what brings him back and encourages him to keep going.
00:21:12
Speaker
At that sound, the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect. And I feel like Rebel Wilson in Pitch Perfect, not a good enough reason to use the word penetrate. ah But he gives this great stirring speech.
00:21:27
Speaker
Arise, arise, riders of Theoden, fell deeds awake, fire and slaughter, spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered, a sword's day, a red day, ere the sun rises, ride now, ride now, ride to Gondor. And now I'm just reading the various innuendos I can make from that. I apologize, because it's a wonderful war cry, but I'm now just thinking about dicks. This is a serious moment. I know, but I'm now just thinking about dicks.
00:21:56
Speaker
I mean, that's fair. You could think about them whenever you want. That's the beauty of free will is nobody can read your mind. Nobody can know how much you're thinking about anybody's bits, but I did write down that same boat. I'm content for our podcast listeners, which get to hear about the fact that I'm thinking about dicks. I mean, they only hear the things we choose to share. There's other... That's probably for the better. Now I'm just like, I want to make a tip of the iceberg.
00:22:21
Speaker
comment, but then there's things about dicks and tips and we should just, let's move on. This is a serious moment.
00:22:31
Speaker
Um, I think about the, when when I read this page, I'm thinking about the one that's delivered in the movie because it's so well done.
00:22:45
Speaker
And it takes pieces from this speech and from some of the pieces of poetry throughout the next chapter to create sort of an amalgam. ah But anyway, they ride now to Gondor in a full charge and they're singing as they're going into battle. Yeah, we finally have some hope and we get more majestic descriptions of Theoden. And if we can tell based on how much emphasis is being put on, oh, suddenly he's having this big rush of energy after being this bent old man for so long, he's totally gonna die really soon. So I'm just enjoying what is almost certainly his last moments of being alive. But there was a great paragraph that I had written down.
00:23:31
Speaker
His golden shield was uncovered, and lo, Beowulf, I see you, lo, it shone like an image of the sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea, and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them.
00:23:52
Speaker
And then all the host of Rohan burst into song and they sang as they slew for the joy of battle was on them. And the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the city." And so we have the beautiful metaphor of the, I mean, the clouds literally parting for a moment, but then also the shining light of hope in the sun. And if Theoden is going to die, at least he's going out in a blaze of glory. And it's a good optimistic note to end the chapter on.
00:24:22
Speaker
It is. Um, I do have to bring a note of, you know, childhood religious trauma into this because Ooh, yes, please. The way, the way that last paragraph is like patterned makes me feel like as you were reading, it should have ended with, you know, shutting the book and going, this is the word of the Lord, word of the lord because it's, it feels like.
00:24:49
Speaker
the translation of the gospel that was used in my childhood church, like just the way, the tempo of the words. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. There was, I mean, there were like songs that we sang. I grew up in the Episcopal church, but it was a weird specific congregation. It wasn't totally in line with the rest of the Episcopal church. It was very strange.
00:25:13
Speaker
but There was one song that we sang that, I don't know if it was a remix of a song or what, but there was something about, you know, behold, he comes riding on the clouds and trumpets and the sun is shining and stuff. So yeah, that's totally, but totally a Jesus thing. But with the charge of the Rohirrim, we end up in chapter six, the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
The Battle of the Pelennor Fields Begins
00:25:36
Speaker
And we have a very rare chapter that picks up right where we left off in this book.
00:25:40
Speaker
Yeah, and if, you know, just to make sure we don't get too comfortable with that hope and joy, we get a nice little ominous, I don't know if it's quite a POV switch, but it's a camera switch, it's a focus switch to the Witch King for just a second. And the darkness may be breaking earlier than he had planned, but he has other weapons. And so he swoops off ominously to go gather whatever whatever other weapons those might be.
00:26:09
Speaker
Yeah, he fully misty steps away. because And at the end of the Siege of Gondor, we have him showing up and like having a stare down with Gandalf. And now I'm just imagining like being from Gandalf's perspective of, you know, the fucking Witch King of Angmar walks in, you know, does the like fucking water tribe eyes on you thing, and then just fucking disappears.
00:26:41
Speaker
dimension doors out of there. Yeah. And the writers are making good progress. They slow down to pick off enemies as they go. And then they see the King of the Southrons. And I really liked the imagery and the contrast when he's introduced.
00:26:57
Speaker
then Okay, who was filled with the red wrath? This is the king. Then he, he being their king, was filled with a red wrath and shouted aloud and displaying his standard, black serpent upon scarlet. He came against the white horse and the green with great press of men and the drawing of the scimitars of the Southrons was like a glitter of stars. I would love to talk about like color theory here. Yes, please. Because We have, you know, all red and black out of the Southrons and the Harajrim and Mordor. And then we have green and white in Rohan and Bree. And that sort of contrast between like fire
00:27:44
Speaker
and like scorched earth vibes to like growth and flowers and, you know, green fields. But then you have black and silver in Gondor. And the white is not exclusive to Brie and Rohan because Saruman used it and repurposed it. But also he was Saruman of the Technicolor Dreamcoat.
00:28:12
Speaker
And he was Saruman of many colors. And now we have Gandalf the White. And now we have Gandalf the White. So Tolkien clearly is using the the red and the black to denote evil and the green to denote good. I don't know where necessarily where I was going with this, but whenever I think about red and color symbolism. I just think about that and old Tumblr post about the children's hospital. the children do you know you know exactly great colorful show Great color for children's hospitals. But it is very- It was more about the red streaks on the floor looking like you dragged a fucking body across the children's hospital. Yes, exactly. But it is just good striking visual contrast and symbolism. It's very easy to pick out who's who.
00:29:08
Speaker
The Southrons are put in here to basically give a cavalry challenge to the Rohirrim because the Rohirrim have basically smashed through the infantry of Mordor, the orcs, um and everyone who was standing in the way. And so it's only when the Southrons can come and hit them back with cavalry of their own that the Rohirrim start to have a difficult time.
00:29:34
Speaker
But they still beat them. um They're outnumbered, but they are more skilled. Yeah, Phaidon goes, you know, fuck that. And drives straight into them and ends up throwing down the Sauron Chieftain.
00:29:54
Speaker
And then somewhere in there, there's a paragraph break and another paragraph starts, but low. And then Beowulf again, I see you. And he calls right in there in that paragraph and fade. And then after striking down the King of the South Rhones, he strikes down their standard bearer and the cavalry turn and flee. I also have here in my notes that that felt very Beowulf.
00:30:21
Speaker
isn Oh, and he calls the Eorlingos to him, but Snowmane, his horse gets shot and falls on Theoden. Yeah. And that is when shit hits the fan. Yeah, there's suddenly the darkness returns, all of the horses are freaking out, and the witch... Because...
00:30:48
Speaker
The horses are freaking out, not necessarily just because of the darkness, but because of the great shadow that descends like a falling cloud. Just not necessarily from the clouds, but it is from a winged creature. If bird than greater than all other birds and it was naked and neither quill nor feather did it bear and its vast pinions, whereas webs of hide between horned figures and its stank,
00:31:17
Speaker
A creature of an older world it was, whose kind, lingering and forgotten mountains, cold beneath the moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eerie, bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil. Let's talk a little bit about pterosaurs. Okay. The description of this creature brings to mind a pterosaur, a flying reptile,
00:31:47
Speaker
And Tolkien acknowledges this in one of his letters. He says, I did not intend the state of the Witch King to be what is now called a pterodactyl, and often is drawn with rather less shadowy evidence than lies behind many monsters of the new and fascinating semi-scientific mythology of the, quote, prehistoric.
00:32:07
Speaker
but obviously it is pterodactylic and owes much to the new mythology and its description even provides a sort of way in which it could be a last survivor of older geologic eras. There's an interesting quote from Tolkien clearly showing some of his skepticism or what paleontologists were pulling out of the ground and describing at the time and perhaps some skepticism for the evolutionary theories that were sort of gaining lots of evidence at the time, yeah which I guess we can trace back to his Catholicism. We know that Tolkien did think about the world being intensely old, you know much older than the
00:33:00
Speaker
6,000 years that a lot of creationists will like to claim. listen But he did think about that that ancient time as a time somewhat out of myth, as something that can't necessarily be super well described. yeah But thinking about pterosaurs, because the way this creature is described as having
00:33:27
Speaker
webs of hide between horned fingers. That almost has it looking more like a bat. When you look at creatures that fly with, as the book says, webs of hide, bats are adapted such that their wings are, in fact, their hands. And so instead of Like if you look at your hands, the little webbing between your fingers is extended out all the way. So that if you look at a bat's wing, there are the bones, the phalanges extend all the way out to the end of the wing and the membrane stretches between them. In a pterosaur, that membrane stretched between one finger
00:34:27
Speaker
Um, which was extended very far out the end and then connected to the legs. Oh, interesting. So it's, it's like the, it's like you had a huge membrane extending from your arm that then attached to the side of your body. Okay. I can visualize that. Yeah.
00:34:49
Speaker
I did go ahead and look up as I was thinking, I saw somebody had described this as like a Quetzalcoatl, which is one of the really, really big pterosaurs. But Quetzalcoatl's fossils weren't described until the 1980s, which was well after Tolkien had um written the Fel Beast.
00:35:13
Speaker
Yeah. I feel so silly for not even thinking any dinosaur thoughts when I heard this description because I was just thinking bat. I was thinking weird fleshy mammal. But I mean the pterosaur comparison seems so obvious now that you point it out. It was the line, a creature of an older world maybe it was, was what got me there. Yeah.
00:35:41
Speaker
So, you know, like we said, you know, or like Tolkien has said, he he didn't necessarily intend to make this a pterosaur, but the ideas are applicable so we can talk about it as one. and so I want a journey to the center of the earth, like find the dinosaurs that are living in Mordor still.
00:36:08
Speaker
Little fanfic, I think that'd be fun. Yeah. Some, I don't know, local biologists who need to preserve their natural history because they know that their country is going to be destroyed. I don't know. There's, there's possibilities there. I like it. More fleshing out all of the other jobs that people have in Mordor that isn't just guard or soldier. Which king kills man?
00:36:37
Speaker
A woman kills witch king. Fell beast eats witch king. Woman inherits the earth. A when there's Dr. Ellie Sadler. I actually have never seen Jurassic Park. I'm assuming that's a Jurassic Park reference. That is a Jurassic Park reference, yes.
00:36:55
Speaker
Moving on.
Eowyn and Merry vs. Witch King
00:36:56
Speaker
So, everyone is freaking out about this big, horrible, evil monster. Lots of riders have either died or their horses have run away, and Theoden is left only with Durnhelm—sorry, I doubted you, Durnhelm—and Merry. And there, I'm sure, was dialogue.
00:37:16
Speaker
that I didn't write down because I skimmed over that as soon as my eyes caught on the page that Dernhelm was Aowin and I started texting you in all caps and I started taking notes in all caps and then I just stopped taking notes because I was just so excited to keep reading and see what happened. I then had to, after I finished the chapter, go back and reread it to actually take notes because I just was like, yes, bitch. Yes. Aowyn, finally. Okay. Aowyn is turn home. Let's go. It's absolutely fucking delighted by that or reveal. I don't know if you had anything to say about whatever words I'm sure were exchanged before that. Um, sort of kind of, but not really like.
00:38:01
Speaker
This, I feel like is Tolkien's Shakespeare, Beowulf mashup fanfic. Yeah. Because this felt very Beowulf battles the dragon. Where Beowulf dies and Wigloff shows up to his aid. But then also this is one whole long Macbeth reference. So we may be familiar with the prophecy that Macbeth cannot be killed by men of woman born.
00:38:32
Speaker
And then Macbeth is killed by Macduff, who was born via Caesarean. So, you know, not technically born of woman, quote unquote. Fun fact, there is obnoxious discourse in the new mom community about whether a C-section still counts as having given birth in the year of our Lord 2024. It counts. It's bonkers. People will find any reason to hate women anyway.
00:38:58
Speaker
Back to the point. That's ridiculous. Also, I was a C-section baby and, you know, I'm not a man, but like, does that mean I can kill Macbeth and also the Witch King of Hangmar? I mean, I think you can do anything if you put your mind to it. On multiple technicalities? Let's go. oh But also there's ah there's a line here about, you know, come not between the Nazgul and his prey.
00:39:26
Speaker
or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation beyond all darkness." Which is a reference to King Lear, where King Lear says, come not between the dragon and his wrath. But back to the no man of woman born, meaning you can be killed ah by someone who's had a C-section, Tolkien thought that was dumb.
00:39:55
Speaker
in the same way that he didn't like the whole, you know, when the forest, when ah Burnham Wood comes to Dunsenane. Yeah, people hiding behind their stupid little sticks. So instead he went, okay, so why, why, why would we not just give it to a woman? Yeah. Because the witch king goes, you know, no living man may hinder me.
00:40:23
Speaker
And lucky for us, Dernhelm is no living man. Yes, and then we get the awesome monologue. But no living man am I. You look upon a woman. Eowyn, I am. Eowyn's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Be gone if you be not deathless. For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him.
00:40:44
Speaker
Still, and then there's some more stuff, and then a line after that that I also wrote down. Still she did not blench, maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel blade, fair yet terrible. Mmm, chef's kiss, fucking love it.
00:40:58
Speaker
Oh, I was, I was reading this whole passage with air horns blaring in the back of my mind. Yeah. It's like, it's Aowyn with a steel chair. She's here. It's just so good. And did we talk about this last time or just between the two of us that with our fantasy gender theory, who technically would fall into this category of no living man. Did we talk about this last time on the show? I don't think so.
00:41:27
Speaker
yeah then I think we might have just talked about that between ourselves. But if we are staying consistent with our theory that man is a human concept, could the hobbits kill the Witch King? Could any other non-human, like what are the rules about that? Well, yes, true, true, true, true, true. I am getting ahead of myself. Yes, because Mary then goes to help. Yes. So she So before that, Eowyn beheads the monster and she's surrounded by light and her hair's glowing and it's amazing. And then the Witch King falls down on top of her and he's about to kill her. But then it's Merry with a steel chair and he's the one who actually deals the killing blow. It's Merry with a knife forged expressly for this purpose. four And so the two of them, a human woman and a hobbit,
00:42:25
Speaker
who is not a man, we have repeatedly throughout this series pointed out whenever someone calls the hobbits men that they are not men. Was that foreshadowing this whole time? I mean, it can be. But so together, they kill the Witch King of Angmar. But so yeah, I guess that's the question of could an elf kill the Witch King?
00:42:55
Speaker
And we've seen, you know, like great elf lords that have killed, you know, Balrogs, we've met Glorfindel. Could Gandalf, but Gandalf is described frequently as like an old man. So is Gandalf sort of like close enough to man? Yeah. and Man enough.
00:43:24
Speaker
Yeah, they got very lucky with this one. They did. um the The prophecy let them through on a technicality. But we don't get to enjoy this victory for very long because then it suddenly gets very stressful and confusing. This whole chapter is just a yo-yo of feelings. It's like, but all hope was lost, and then there was hope again, and then all hope was lost again.
00:43:52
Speaker
yeah you know then then the hope was ground out of whoever brought it. And then we have, you know, Mary doing this awesome victory and we get to enjoy that for half a second. But then it seems like Eowyn is also dead, question mark. And Mary is just standing in the middle of a bunch of corpses and realizing that he's way out of his depth and Snowmane is dead and Theoden is on death's door. And ah Mary is able to go to him for some last words.
00:44:24
Speaker
And I had thoughts about the last words, but I don't know if you had anything before that. Please. No. He's talking to Theoden, and it's beautiful and sad. And part of what he says is Theoden is giving these sort of blessings to Mary. Live now in blessedness, and when you sit in peace with your pipe, think of me. For never now shall I sit with you in Medu Seld as I promised, or listen to your herb lore.
00:44:48
Speaker
And we know that Mary, after the events of these books, goes on to write the book, Herblore of the Shire. And that makes it so sad because he was probably thinking about they and him. I didn't think about that. Because just the phrase, Herblore, and then the book title, Herblore of the Shire, that had to be on purpose. And he was thinking about his dead friend who was like a father to him, even though it was for a short time. And that's the lore that he never got to share.
00:45:15
Speaker
that immediately, immediately came to mind. And that's- Herblar of the Shire, dedication to Theoden King. You know, I can't compose a full dedication epitaph thing. That's fine. I am sure, I am sure that that's how that reads, is to Theoden. Yeah. And that makes up for me not realizing that the evil steved was a dinosaur. That's my big brain contribution.
00:45:46
Speaker
But I had many big brain contributions, but that's a good one. I'd fully forgotten about that. This parallels to the end of the Hobbit, really, interestingly, where the King is telling his attendant Hobbit that all is forgiven for disobeying his orders and, you know, I'm i'm sorry that we are parting this way and doesn live well and enjoy life and tell the people I love them things. Like this is, it's a very similar little scene. Yeah. And it's it's just overall heartbreaking, especially when Amr shows up because he sees his uncle there dead and is crowned king of the mark. And then he turns and sees his sister.
00:46:40
Speaker
Well, yeah, because first, before that, he is thinking, oh, my God, I'm the new king. I have to send word to Aowin because he didn't realize that she was there and then realizes that she's there. And oh, yeah. And they didn't want to see it like wishes he could see Aowin again, not knowing that Aowin is right there. Oh, yes, I had I had it wrong. It was um it was they didn't who wanted to send word to Aowin and Amer does make it just in time.
00:47:09
Speaker
to see if they didn't pass and tell some of his soldiers to stay back and barefade and out in honor instead of just leaving him in the middle of the battlefield.
Theoden's Fate and Mourning
00:47:20
Speaker
But yeah, then he sees his dead sister and is full of rage and rides back out into the battle because we can't have anything nice in this chapter.
00:47:30
Speaker
The Rohirrim sang no more. Death, they cried, with one voice loud and terrible, and gathering speed like a great tide, their battle swept about their fallen king and past, roaring away southwards. We have a brief description of Meri's magic sword, because it dissolves, having fulfilled the purpose that it was forged for, to kill the Witch King of Angmar.
00:47:58
Speaker
poor mary is just kind of stuck there trying to collect himself trying to process the 15 things that just happened he gets his shield he just watches his sword dissolve and that's got to be a very confusing and overwhelming experience hobbits are not made for battle yeah They are strong little creatures, but they're not made for battle. We see this with the assault on Isengard, where Merry and Pippin set it out. We see this with Bilbo in The Hobbit, where he knocks his head in a rock. We see this on Weathertop, where Frodo gets stabbed. thank These are not people that are, they're not warriors.
00:48:47
Speaker
They will follow a quest as far as they possibly can, but as soon as someone actually is trying to fight them, there's going to be a problem. Yeah. They'll probably end up surviving that encounter, but it will set them back.
00:49:06
Speaker
There's a piece here at the end of this section where it talks about after the battle, men will return to bury Snowmane. And I kind of felt like the epitaph, the little couplet that they ah bury him under, is kind of rude. It's just about how Snowmane kind of sucked and he was his master's bane. Faithful servant, yet master's bane.
00:49:35
Speaker
Lightfoot's full, swift snowman. He was a good horse, but he kills daddy. yeah
00:49:45
Speaker
um yeah um There was also one more parallel here that I noticed. It says that they burned the body of the fell beast. And where they burn the beast, nothing grows there forever.
00:50:00
Speaker
And the same thing happens with the hill full of dead orcs at Helm's Deep. yeah Like their evil and their death and the deposit and or the the treatment of their bodies in those places like destroys the ability of the land to harbor life, which is kind of interesting. I'm not really sure how to interpret that or having trouble finding the words to interpret that. But it feels very like you sin taints all. There is no forgiveness. It taints everything it touches. Yeah, I had kind of a different take thinking about that because I feel like the easier or maybe the more
00:50:50
Speaker
contemporary way that that would go would be, you know, something terrible happened, but then something beautiful grew up in its place and they were able to make something good out of this horrible pain. But I think what these two things do is they kind of emphasize the permanence of the damage and the harm that's being done by all of this evil shit and that no matter how much we're able to hold off the darkness or what good things happen in spite of it. The trauma and the harm to people and to the land is still real. It's still forever. When all of these great wonders pass out of time and out of history, they're just gone. And there's no getting around that sometimes. And it's very bleak, but I think that it's also very realistic.
00:51:51
Speaker
I think it's kind of interesting, but I i also think about like going to old like World War I and World War II battlefields in Europe and seeing like just the green fields. Have you heard this on the sound of the green fields of France?
00:52:08
Speaker
I think I have, that sounds familiar, but it was probably very sad and I probably only listened to it once. It's it's very, very sad. It's about um you know a guy going to France and sitting down beside someone's grave. Oh yes, I was gonna say, is that the one about the grave? That's so sad. Yeah, no, it's it's rough. I remember listening to that, like having the first cry in several months that I really needed at the time, but oof.
00:52:38
Speaker
There's ah a verse in it. The sun now it shines on the green fields of France. There's a warm summer breeze that makes the red poppies dance. And look how the sun shines from under the clouds. There's no gas, no barbed wire, no guns firing now. But here in this graveyard, it's still no man's land. The countless white crosses stand mute on the sand. To man's blind indifference to his fellow man.
00:53:09
Speaker
to a whole generation that were butchered and damned. So like, you know, I can see what you're saying about the permanence of it, but I almost think it's more effective to have the memory there in a place that looks like it never happened. Yeah, I think, you know, there's there's room for all of the all of the layers. True. I can also see to someone like Tolkien who fought in the war, how it would feel like it was forgotten to go back and you see these green fields growing up over places where his friends bled out and died.
00:54:06
Speaker
I can see how perhaps writing in that the scars of evil permanently marked this land could be almost cathartic in some ways. Yeah. And everyone as they're building this pyre and doing all of this sort of cleanup as the main action of the battle moves on.
00:54:33
Speaker
They're all feeling it, and we get some more weather, mood, personification. A great rain came out of the sea, and it seemed that all things wept for Theoden and Eowyn, quenching the fires in the city with gray tears. And so we have more of that sort of peace, war contrast. The fires are going out, but they're going out because of the sad gray tears, and everyone is mourning, and it's it's everything all at once.
00:55:01
Speaker
Um, but then we have another mood yo-yo because Prince Imra Hill comes up and is like, Hey, wait, I think Eowyn's actually alive. Um, and like puts his armor in front of her mouth and his, her breath fogs it up. And my brain had to deliver a, a funky moment because of this. Have you ever watched Archer?
00:55:31
Speaker
I have not though. Um, it's like an animated series about, you know, highly incompetent spies. Um, yeah it's the same voice actor as the Bob's Burgers guy, which is wilds because they're very different characters. They are. I never watched Bob's Burgers as, ah as a teen into young love Bob's Burgers. Yeah. So it was weird when I watched a a Bob's Burgers episode and was like, this is,
00:55:59
Speaker
I'm expecting something very different to be coming from that voice. um But there's an episode where they're trying to protect the Pope from an assassination attempt. And they think he might be dead of old age. And so they carry this huge mirror, like this like giant six foot tall wall mirror over to him to see if his breath fogs up the mirror. And they drop it on him and nearly kill him.
00:56:25
Speaker
Um, and that's all I could think of here is like, you know, holding a shield above Aowin's face to see if her breath fogs up the shield and then, you know, look, she's alive. Oh shit. I dropped that. My bad. She's not alive. She was never alive. Don't worry about it. Oopsie. And she and Fairmere are real parallels right now because they're both sort of on this line between life and death. They're the,
00:56:52
Speaker
younger, next generation of rulers and their status is precarious and we love them both and we just want them to live. They're an interesting parallel or here because like Faramir was following his father's commands even to his own death. Whereas Eowyn could not be bothered to follow Theoden's commands.
00:57:21
Speaker
But she's still going, or she's still approaching death because of that. Which I kind of like that juxtaposition of the,
00:57:34
Speaker
they're both trying to be brave. They're both trying to protect that which they believe in. But Faramir is trying to do it. with and alongside his father. And Eowyn is trying to do it in spite of her uncle. Yeah. Meanwhile, so much fighting is going on. There's just like pages of descriptions of how the battle is going here. Yeah. And the Imrehills reinforcements came just in time because Eomer had bitten off way more than he could chew, just in his fury and grief, just sort of went into things without much of a plan.
00:58:15
Speaker
And now there's the corsairs of Umbar and there's no hope left. But psych, do you want to see what happens with that? Because we have more just Tolkien playing with our feelings. Yeah. um even Even with the Rohirrim, even with Imrahel, the tide is turning against them. The literal tide, because there's books za now.
00:58:42
Speaker
Thank you. oh But then they look, the ships get closer. They see the ships and they're like, oh no, we're totally fucked. like That means that all of the Southern provinces must have fallen before the corsairs. So there's no more help coming.
00:59:00
Speaker
we're barely standing as it is as soon as they land we're doomed. But then the ships get closer and ah there's a big banner on the ships of the White Tree and the Seven Stars and the Crown of Elendil.
Aragorn's Reinforcements Arrive
00:59:15
Speaker
And it's not the corsairs, it's Aragorn with a steel chair! Yes! Because he's on the fucking ship! And this has to be the banner that, um, what's her face? Other lady character. Arwen made for him. There's not that many of them, it shouldn't be that hard to remember which one is which. But yeah, this must be the banner that Arwen made for him.
00:59:38
Speaker
and the orcs and various people of Mordor are very confused because they're thinking, oh, these are our allies, but why is that think why is it different? And then everyone just starts leaping off the ships like total badasses and Legolas and Gimli are there too and Aragorn lands with a sick line and I imagine sunglasses come down over his face.
01:00:01
Speaker
And I don't remember who he's saying this to, um because I was too swept away by the majesty to care, frankly. But he says, thus we meet again, though all the hosts of Mordor lay between us, said Aragorn. Did I not say so at the Hornberg? Pew, pew, pew, pew. Amazing, amazing entrance. Perfect. No notes. That's to Airmir.
01:00:27
Speaker
isn' because they they've had this whole thing of like, you know, someday we'll draw swords together. Oh, no, wait, I have to go this way. Amher's like, you're gonna die if you go that way. And Aragorn's like, don't worry about it. i I'll see you later. Amher's like, sure, buddy. And now Aragorn gets to do the I told you so. It's so good.
01:00:53
Speaker
and shows up with all the armies from the southern fiefs and the Grey Company. ah There's no mention of the armies of the dead here. Yeah, I was about to say, we don't see anything about all the zombies, although I'm sure they're somewhere. I don't know whether they're here or whether they fulfilled their oaths by wiping out the corsairs of Umbar.
01:01:16
Speaker
listen't But I'm sure we'll get more. And then, you know, it says basically like, it was still difficult, but they fully wipe out any remaining resistance. No one escapes alive. Yeah. The only news to get back to Mordor about this event is just a rumor of the wrath of Gondor because no one who experienced it was there to give
Battle Aftermath and Land's Impact
01:01:45
Speaker
a report. They'd fully clean house.
01:01:47
Speaker
And then we have a poem that eventually will be composed about all of the people who fell in the battle from Rohan. And that ends the chapter. Yeah. So, yikes. Yeah, that was intense. Those chapters were really exciting. I've said on the show before that I tend to zone out during lengthy combat sequences. And there's definitely a lot that I just glazed over, but I still think that it was done really effectively because I was just so excited about what was happening. I was just speeding along because I wanted to know what happens. So I don't feel like I missed out on anything, even though there was some bits where I didn't care which groups of soldiers were fighting who. I got the important parts and they had their emotional impact and I enjoyed it tremendously.
01:02:44
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that based off of this, we could draw a whole description of the maps of the Pelennar Fields and where certain forces were here, and then they withdrew to here.
01:02:57
Speaker
i didn't care about that. I was mostly focused on like, wow, I got to, I was sort of going to like the, well, here's where they say it all hope was lost and here's where the new hope was. And then here's where that hope faded and all hope was lost again. And here's where the new hope was. Um, cause those were sort of the important turning points. Let the helicopter fly overhead.
01:03:18
Speaker
helicopter there's also uh phoenix loudly grooming himself and i was going to tell him to shut up but then he stopped and now he's back to loudly snoring i wish that some of the phoenix snores came through because i can't hear any of them I'll put the mic up to his crate later when we're done. I've been taking him on my hot girl walks and he is very upset by that. He is a lazy bones and he will just fully flop corpse mode in the middle of the road if he feels like he's done. I'm going, you know, mommy, you may be motivated to exercise, but I did not consent to this. I did not agree. i will
01:04:00
Speaker
exercise my rights. Civil disobedience. The only thing I will be exercising is my right to flop. Exactly. So he is snoozing. Hey, that's not, I mean, that's not a bad thing. You gotta tire out the doggy so he doesn't cause chaos. He's a sweet, sweet angel boy. But he's so pretty. Yeah.
01:04:24
Speaker
We can post a picture of him on the Instagram post, not because it has anything to do with the episode, but just cause he's a very cute dog and everyone should see how cute he is. Oh, I agree. I think every now and then we just have to post a Phoenix picture for ah a little break from our spider fucking posts. We got, I got a lot of DMs directly to me, not to our show account.
01:04:50
Speaker
But just to be about the spiderfucking and some with intrigue, some with horror, it was provocative, which was the intent. So with that, I guess, do we have anything else we want to talk about for the buildup to the battle and the battle of the Pelennor Fields?
01:05:11
Speaker
Nothing really concrete. I am very intrigued to see what happens with Aowin. I'm glad that she's not dead for real because I would have been so sad if after she has her one dramatic moment, then she got killed off because I fully believed that she was dead. And you know we have the sky mourning her and everyone being on the same page that, okay, she's super dead.
01:05:35
Speaker
I'm glad that that was not the case. And so I don't know what her future holds, but I hope that we have more of her.
Podcast Closing Remarks
01:05:41
Speaker
And I'm glad that all of our friends are back. But the friends are back together. And this is not the last battle that we will go through, but oh certainly not. We're still at the beginning of the book. I mean, we're now seven chapters into the book. So we're still in the first half way through. Yeah, we're working our way through though.
01:06:03
Speaker
So I'm excited to go forward from here and get to yet more battles. But if you, if you would like to hear about the next battle and what happens inside the walls of the city while this is all going down, you can tune in with us next time as we pick up on chapter seven, the pyre of Denethor.
01:06:33
Speaker
Um, because we're not going to stick on a high note for very long. We're going to go directly back into a downer because that's how Tolkien does these things. And in between episodes, you can follow us on our social media to see cute dog pictures and images of people banging arachnids and, uh, I don't know, whatever else I come up with in the moment.
01:07:00
Speaker
If you like what you're hearing, um, please subscribe to the podcast, give it a five star review on whatever podcast platform you're listening on or a written review. If the mood strikes you and you can do that on your podcast platform, you can follow us at fan app pod and all our social media. And you can always send us an email at the fan of apprentice at gmail dot.com. Anything else, Sammy? No, that's it. Thanks for hanging out everybody. We'll see you next time.
01:07:30
Speaker
See you next time. Love you all dearly. Thanks for listening. Bye!
01:07:35
Speaker
the phom apprentice is produced and edited by ren and sam um music was composed and performed by james and our art is by casey turgen