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Field Inclusive Superheroes with Lauren D. Pharr and Dr. Murry Burgess
663 Plays1 month ago
We have some excellence for ya’ll on this episode! Our two guests today are Dr. Murry Burgess and Lauren D. Pharr, the founders of Field Inclusive Inc. In this episode, we get into the need for an organization like Field Inclusive when it comes to helping marginalized field researchers, including those who are out in our forests, swamps, ponds, oceans, and deserts studying birds! This covers everything from field training to safety training and even equitable financial compensation. You can learn more about this in the upcoming Field Inclusive Week 2025.
Additionally, we cover some of the research that has impacted birds across the spectrum. From the key research by Lauren on the Red-cockaded Woodpecker, which was recently delisted from endangered to threatened by USFWS to the key research by Dr. Burgess on light pollution on the lives of songbirds. We do not forget to discuss the colorful and magical book Sparrow Loves Birds, authored by Dr. Burgess and illustrated by Tamisha Anthony. We discuss the impetus for the books and why it’s such a comprehensive onramp for kids to explore their communities.
Join us this week for incredible joy and inspiration with these two heroes of ornithology.
Be sure to follow our podcast on Instagram at @thebirdjoypod and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Please share this with a friend and help us spread a little Bird Joy.
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Transcript
Introduction to Bird Joy Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Bird Joy podcast. I'm Dexter Patterson. And I'm Jason Hall. This is the podcast for all the bird nerds and the homies out there that want to find a little bird joy. You already know. Are you ready for some bird joy? Let's go. Let's go. So.
Meet the Esteemed Guests
00:00:15
Speaker
We are in the presence of some heavy hitters today. We have been blessed by some excellence on our podcast today, folks, and I hope we can get to all of it in this hour. I want to welcome Lauren DeFar and Dr. Murray Burgess to the podcast today. Welcome, you two. How are you? Hey, doing good. Hanging in there. Doing good and hanging in there. I will echo that. Thank you for having us on. Awesome. Awesome. So please excuse me as I introduce you both and try to make sure folks really understand the level of excellence we have here with us today. Nope. You got it. Cause that way we won't have to. So go for it. There you go. Save your voices. Save your voices. That's right. That's right. Is it Dr. Burgess or Murray? Yes. Murray. Just Murray. Just Murray. All right. I mean, listen, you want Dr. Burgess. I'll give you, I mean, I'm not gonna, I didn't get a PhD. Hey, give her those letters. Give her those letters. I know, right? I still had to put some respect on her now. All right. I mean, all that work.
Contributions to Wildlife Biology
00:01:21
Speaker
Lauren and Murray are co-founders of Field Inclusive Incorporated seeks to amplify and support marginalized and historically excluded individuals in the outdoors with a specific focus on field biologists. Murray is the CEO. Lauren is the CFO. Individually, Lauren is an avian ecologist currently out of Raleigh, North Carolina.
00:01:41
Speaker
ah She has a BS in environmental biology from Wingate University, a master in fisheries wildlife and conservation biology from North Carolina State University, and is now a PhD candidate at NC State pursuing a degree in fisheries wildlife and conservation biology. Her research focuses on studying the effects of climate change on nestling success In the federally endangered red-cockaded woodpecker RCWs, Lauren has also appeared in outlets such as National Geographic, WIRED, and PBS INC. Lauren is an advocate for black and historically included minorities and serves on multiple committees, including NC State University's Forestry and Environmental Resources, Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Committee. She also is the recipient of the North Carolina Wildlife Federation's 2023 Governor's Conservation Achievement Award for Young Conservationists of the Year. Man, talk your talk. Wow. That's amazing. This is the highest honor in the state of North Carolina and the wildlife space. All right. So that's one superhero. All right. We're going to move to the next superhero now. We appreciate you. I appreciate you. Dr. Murray Burgess. All right. Urban ecologist and ornithologist, tenure track assistant professor at Mississippi State University. Dr. Burgess comes to us with a BS degree in wildlife fisheries and aquaculture from Mississippi State. Also a PhD in fisheries, wildlife and conservation biology from NC State University. And she also earned an associate wildlife biologist certification from the wildlife society.
00:03:09
Speaker
Her current research is in urban ecology and ornithology with a focus on the effects of arthropigenic stressors on songbird physiology. She is also a children's author with both self-published work and a children's STEM series with little brown young readers. First book of that series, Sparrow Loves Birds, features a little black girl learning how to identify birds in her suburban neighborhood. Wow. Okay. We have to have some conversations because the thing Dexter and I have admired both of you for quite some time. And I, and probably I learned of you both through Deja Perkins at one point. You had put me onto both of you, but you had no idea at the time that y'all were getting ready to start field inclusive. Right. And so once that popped off, I was like, Oh, they, they are, they are real serious down there. And so we wanted to bring y'all on today just to talk about some of this this work that y'all put in, why you've put it in. And so again, welcome to the podcast. We are so thankful that you both decided to spend some time today with us.
00:04:13
Speaker
And thank you so much for having us. We're excited. Yes.
Mission of Field Inclusive
00:04:17
Speaker
Yes. So, you know, obviously this is the bird joy podcast and we're going to get into as much bird joy and every aspect of this discussion today. But we do want to start with field inclusive and your mission says field inclusive strives to provide tangible and actionable improvements in the natural sciences by addressing social field safety issues related to equity, diversity, inclusion and and accessibility. We seek to support all field biologists as well as those working and recreating in the outdoors through identifying and addressing social field safety issues, developing social field safety resources, and supporting marginalized and historically excluded researchers through financial aid and experiential learning opportunities. this is Obviously an amazing mission. Can you both just talk to us a little bit about how you two came to the place where you realized you needed to start such an amazing organization? Yes. Well, we recognize this gap that exists in the natural sciences field. and We'll talk a lot about field safety in terms of things that you encounter outdoors, like dangerous animals, some venomous snakes.
00:05:28
Speaker
um ticks, poison ivy, all of those things. And it was just missing this aspect of, well, people who look like you and I, people who are marginalized or from the underrepresented community, encounter other safety issues that don't arise from dangerous animals or plants, but from other people who we might encounter in the field. And no institutions that we knew of, including our own, had any type of policies or procedures to address this type of safety issue. And so Lauren and I said, hey, we're not busy with our PhDs. Let's go ahead and you know start a nonprofit about this.
00:06:06
Speaker
no so if you needed any more proof that they're superheroes. was and So literally I remember that day well because I was in the midst of doing my field work. So I was, I just got out of the field. I was taking a nap and everything. And it it was, I was, we were just talking and at first we were just going to have it be a week. So you know, we have our field inclusive week that we do every year, which we still do absolutely love it. That's, you know, again, seeking to bring um awareness to these issues that we're talking about in regards to, you know, social field safety and inclusivity, diversity, equity in the outdoors, all that fun stuff. So we were
00:06:42
Speaker
essentially going to just leave it for a week. And then Murray was like, Hmm, you know, we might can go bigger than that. And then no, and you know and then I like, I was like, you know what, you're actually right. So then murrays got all that Murray got all the paperwork together and I'm like, oh, we actually doing this. Okay, let's go. Like, let's go. Like, let's go. And so it did not take long for everything to get approved. And we were just like, wow, we're an actual nonprofit. Let's do this. It started from there.
Impact of Field Inclusive
00:07:17
Speaker
And I mean, honestly, we have had a blast ever since it it is definitely work in these last two years. years, we have seen the huge impact that it's made in all of these areas. We've had multiple universities and organizations come to us, you know, ask us for advice, ask us to give the workshops that we do, which is bringing awareness to again, the issue is Murray described, you know, with social field safety. And on top of that, we've grown to, you know, incorporate and have so many different
00:07:45
Speaker
sponsors and you know sponsor organizations that are you know wanting to wanting to support and provide for our mission. So through that, we're able to provide financial opportunities such as our research grants and our travel awards and our fellowships. And then we're also able to incorporate some other additional programs. Here in Raleigh, we have our beginning birders program that we do with the Wake Audubon so Society. And they have just stepped up to the plate and that's been going fabulous. Literally, it is is introducing communities that we would rarely see outdoors, birdings. We cater towards groups like Outdoor Afro and the LGBT Center here in Raleigh. and But on top of that, we also cater to allies because the you know the issues and the concerns that we are talking about and we're wanting to you know continue to get you know addressed and people become more aware about. We also want our allies to hear it because our allies are a huge part in you know continuing to make sure that these things are incorporated. As Murray said, we were just doing our PhDs, nothing out of the So let's do this. Oh, that's amazing. That's amazing. That's why I use the word excellence. Because like it's if you if you go to the field inclusive website, there is so much going on. And it is so heartening to see the number of sponsorships that you have and just so many different programs there. i really feel like it is a one-of-a-kind institution. The level of focus that you all have, the way you've stayed on mission, is really a great example, I think, to other young black and brown scientists that are that are trying to find their way. Now granted, I'm sure we're not saying, yes, start a nonprofit while you're working on your PhD. What? What? Or are we? No, I'm just kidding. Hey, listen, Right?
00:09:26
Speaker
like that's That's where I'm like, you know, there is the, the sky is really the limit. And, um, you know, for, for, for Dexter and I, I think both of us are not in, uh, as, as professionals in that field of ornithology or field research or anything like that. So we, you know, we both find it pretty fascinating, especially as we're going out and, and at our bird clubs, you know, we're having similar conversations around safety in the field. Right. And I think, I think it was you, Lauren, and we were talking back and forth. I bought i bought some gear. I got my my shirt, my fanny pack back there from field inclusive. We love to see it. Yeah. Right. But I was, I was i think I was asking you a question around the brighter one shirts. Like, no, can we buy those for wearing them on a burglar? club walks versus field research. And like it really, the messages they overlap with a lot of different places around safety for black and brown folks or LGBTQI folks in the outdoors. And that's really, I think part of the the specialness of this is like, it's when folks talk to you, when I've heard you both talk, it is easily transferable into the rest of our lives. Was that always part of the design or did you end up kind of coming up on that? um A bit of both because I know we always wanted to talk ah focus on the professional academic space just because that's where we were and that's where we saw that initial gap. But definitely realizing that this applies to anybody just recreating in the outdoors.
00:10:47
Speaker
anybody who has that stigma attached to them. It's like, oh, other people think I don't belong here just because of the way i that I look. Like this is kind of a universal policy that can apply to everything. I agree with that. And I actually I want to go back to a a tidbit that you said, Jason, about, you know, you both not being professionals, but give yourself some credit because you are like you. I mean, I heard you too. You are not professionals. Exactly. You both still You're still, you're incorporating and you're embodying what Field Inclusive is about and what we stand for as black individuals in these spaces. Like you said, you're going into your bird clubs. You're preaching this story too. That goes a long way. And teaching so many people. It does. It does. So I want you to sit back and give yourself some credit for that.
00:11:37
Speaker
Listen, listen, our job is to make y'all blush. It's not supposed to be the other way around, okay? I don't know how to take compliments. Is my cheeks getting warm? i so So like, I mean, on your, on your, um, thank you for that, by the way, uh, on your website, you have, um, seven goals of the organization, right? And they cover everything from amplifying marginalized voices, field safety training, field safety opportunities, or field opportunities, scholarships, equity, accessibility, and even financial compensation. And we talked about these being common themes, you know, that we find in other spaces. Can you talk about those particularly in your field inclusive space? Like how does something like financial compensation, how is that a unique point of focus that you guys, that you both wanted
Financial Compensation in Internships
00:12:26
Speaker
to have? Like, was that always like that? Or was that something you both discovered as you got into your own PhD journeys? Yeah, yeah, I, you know what, I would say, I would it's a little bit of both like in saying that, you know, especially when you just hit the field and get into the field of wildlife biology, right, you begin to learn that there are not
00:12:47
Speaker
that many opportunities as far as like internships or fellowships go where you're not fairly compensated for your time or compensated at all. And that is that is one of the, you know, things about entering or others who are thinking about entering the field of wildlife that kind of hinders them is that, you know, well, I have this passion, I love wildlife, I love nature, how am I going to make a living like I'm i'm scared about, you know, being financially stable and making a living and then on top of of that put, you know okay, well, with all of these jobs and positions, they're like, well, you need to have experience. All right, well, let me go out and try to get experience, do an internship or you know do a fellowship. Oh wait, I'm not being compensated or, oh, that's all I'm making, huh? And then you you you start to realize that. And so I think for Murray and I both, and especially when we're talking about marginalized and historically excluded individuals and our backgrounds, we need all the support that we can get.
00:13:39
Speaker
so you know from From that point on, there's and there's plenty of people you know that we've that we've seen continuing to advocate for fair compensation and and you know the financial stability when it's going into getting into the field of wildlife biology, and we don't want people to be hindered by that or stray away from the field simply because of, Oh, I'm not getting paid or I'm getting paid little. And so with the support that we're able to give to, you know, our award recipients, we also don't put a cap on, you know, what the, what the award amount can be used for. So there's a lot of scholarships and awards. They're like, you know, Oh, you can't compensate your field texts or, you know, just trying to, you know, putting limited
00:14:19
Speaker
limitations on what the money is being used for. And we've seen through ours, that's been one of the huge things that people have been thankful for is that we are very flexible in what they can use the money for. So we've had award recipients that have been able to pay um indigenous leaders who you know who helped her with her research and you know trying to find this tropical frog, right? For example, one of our wonderful award recipients. And she was able to you know to to compensate them. we had We have some that are using the money for field training for their tech. So like field safety training, certification training. And a lot of that you don't you don't see, but we're hoping that through our organization, we not only can continue to offer it, but we want other organizations to see what we're doing and continue to advocate for you know for things like that because that financial compensation is huge.
00:15:09
Speaker
Education is huge. And then also, you know, getting there and you know, your professional development opportunities is huge as well. And if you just think about it for a second, we even call it field work. Like we're doing hard physical labor a lot of the time. It's work. We deserve some money for that. Nah, we're just outside playing with the animals. That's fine. Listen, listen, we're going to talk about climbing a tree with the ladder and everything. Hold off on that for a minute. Oh, wow. Yeah, I think they don't see it as work. But I also think what you all are doing is eliminating a lot of barriers. I know when we first started our club, we're not full 501c3. Jason's only have a fiscal sponsor, which is our local Southern Wisconsin bird alliance. And one thing that I've always been super, super grateful with them is they didn't enter the relationship to want to control our club. They wanted to make sure that we had the resources and ability to fulfill our mission. And when I think about what you all are doing, I think about that partnership that we were lucky to have, where it was like, all right, we really believe in your mission. What do you need to get that done? Don't do it. So that is so liberating. It makes you feel good. It makes you feel validated. And then you can just worry about serving the people you want to serve. There you go. There you go. I hear that. And it's music to my ears because not only are you giving people the resources, but you've kind of flipped the table to where now the people who typically haven't had the resources are now giving them out.
00:16:50
Speaker
That to me is a game changer where now you all are the decision maker and put in people that that you serve in a position to be successful. How does that feel? but Because that is a complete game changer from what I see in the in our in our space. It's so incredible. Yeah, up a great point right about you know your partners and your sponsors. Honestly, we wouldn't be where we are today. 50% of us wouldn't be where we are today, because mur well Murray and I are 100%, but I will i will give our our partners some percentage here. um
00:17:23
Speaker
Like, let's just say, you know, like half of what we are today would not be we would not be able to be where we are and do what we do, honestly, without our partners and our sponsors. And you get to that point where, you know, you've talked with people enough, you develop these relationships, you get to a point where you see and you can tell those people who are genuine in your mission and who want to support your mission and you know it's not all for cloud or it's not all like oh let me like let us just tech this check this DEI box and saying that we helped out this little you know this little nonprofit organization run by two black women I can tell you that all of the partners and sponsors that you know you see with us they have been with us one since the beginning and two they are so eager to continue to help us
00:18:04
Speaker
every single year and it's and it's phenomenal. For Murray and I both, I will say it was easy for us to tap into the bird spaces since we are bird nerds. So a lot of our partners and sponsors that you will see are birding organizations. However, we do continue to let people know that we are field inclusive. We support any and all field work. So we have had various partners come on like North Carolina Sea Grant. We've had, you know, various like shark organizations come on board and provide us stuff for our field gear closet, which has been fun. phenomenal. So we are continuing to, you know, preach about, you know, like we are, we are here for everyone. And, you know, we're not, we're not just little bird nerds, although we love the burning organizations. We do represent any and everyone who are doing fieldwork, but it's, it's a wonderful feeling. Yes. and this ah for me has been just this incredible recognition of how financial compensation leads not only to financial compensation, which is important, but this recognition of who is
Upcoming Field Inclusive Week 2025
00:18:59
Speaker
doing the work. Like that example of the indigenous leaders leading you through the rainforest to find your study species. those people often don't get credited in the scientific world as this integral part of the work that we do. And so seeing that start to get recognized as like, this is a real job, this is real work, and that can lead to eventually real recognition opportunities for others as well.
00:19:20
Speaker
That is, I mean, just the the level of depth and thought, and I can feel personal experience in that as well. Seems like it has guided quite a, quite a pretty focused mission. And I want to take that and kind of pivot to field inclusive week, right? Because I, I was, I knew it was coming up, but I didn't check the agenda. And then when I checked the agenda, I was like, Oh man, this looks insane. um I think Lauren, you you mentioned it January 12th through 18th, 2025, and you can find all these details at fieldinclusive.org. But man, y'all got some hitters on here. Some amazing panels through the week on field safety, accessibility, inclusive LGBTQIA plus webinar panel. there's a nature walk. Oh, and by the way, you're just going to end the week with Dr. J. Drew Lanham and Matthew Morgan. Like, like it's nothing, right. in conversation about but out will like playing with my I certainly encourage folks, like, even if you're not a field ornithologist or a field biologist or a field scientist in general, this week is going to be tremendous. Right. And and I got to ask, like, just selfishly, like which ones are YouTube most excited about in terms of the events due the week? I know you're excited about all of them. Yeah. Like which one you feel like? I would have to say all of them. No, I do. Well, well and I do want to touch on a point that you said, you know, so this year we incorporated something new, which is offering workshops. We haven't done this in previous years. Accessibility is a huge one that we do, like a huge you know event that we do. It's probably our most viewed one that people come to. We wanted to bring in some some people who could lead an accessibility workshop, and then we'll be doing our field inclusive, our social field safety workshop. So those are both exciting. I would say for me, definitely the one with my great friend, Drew, of course, 100%. I have a wonderful moderator that I've known from my my area, my my stomping grounds of Charlotte, North Carolina. So he will be doing a moderated conversation with Drew. So I'm excited about that, talking about Autobons. B, talking about not not just the great things about Autobon, but the controversy. That's going to be a really great one to tune into. And then also, I would say our nature walk. because a people last year was our first year incorporating a in person event since we're based in Raleigh, we've kind of you know, done it here and in this area. But the people who came out to that first event, they were really thankful to again have a space where they could just gather and just go about nature and see some birds. For this one, it'll be the same deal, but it's it's half a day. So we'll have like various food trucks going. We'll have some kids activities. We'll have tons of different nature walks. So not just birds, but plants and insects, everything like that. So that's what I that's what i would have to say on most. I love how Lauren listed everything as her favorite. life
00:22:10
Speaker
Literally, if you take everything that I said, you can literally just say, like, yep, it's like, it's everything.
00:22:21
Speaker
That's the sign that's a sign of ah of ah of a great event, folks. So if you are anywhere within driving distance of Raleigh, North Carolina, yeah January 12th through 18th, just absolutely amazing. So yeah, thank you. Of course. And all nature lovers welcome. You do not have to be a professional in the field. All nature lovers welcome all throughout the week. There's something for everyone. Get outside folks. Get outside. It is for you. That work. I mean, obviously the work you all are doing there is fascinating. I actually, I'm kind of, it's been three years already. That's crazy. That's crazy. yes So I'm like, wait a minute. years yeah Almost three years. almost years
00:23:01
Speaker
That work is only part of all this amazing work that you all do. um Let's talk a little bit about your personal research.
Research on Light Pollution's Impact
00:23:09
Speaker
Murray, your work on light pollution and barn swallow chicks is... Y'all know that little emoji where your head blows up? That's kind of what I think about when I think about yeah Murray's research. What's been the most surprising finding in your research? Yes, so the most surprising thing I think is that my expectation was that the chicks that are growing up in all of this light pollution would be kind of left behind and at this developmental detriment. But what I'm finding so far is that they're actually fledging faster. They're leaving the nest sooner, getting a little bit of a head start type of thing. And so not saying that that's either a benefit or a detriment right now is just this exponential growth curve that I'm seeing has been the most surprising to me. That sounds amazing. e do you what Why do you do you think that we can we can go go backwards there? Can we correct that? Or is it more just letting the birds kind of continue to adapt to it as we go? Like, have you seen anything in the research that says if we shift our practices, that they return to homeostasis of of when they would actually fledge and leave? See that is a great question because we don't really know yet. Light pollution in general is such like you know if you think of the timeline of evolution is such a very new thing in the world and there's just not enough studies right now to see like how a much of a long-term effect this is. But I will say that light pollution does have a simple solution. Flip a switch. like That's literally all you have to do, really. Turn off the lights, change the types of lights that you're using to be more bird friendly. Very simple solutions for this global problem that we're having.
00:24:46
Speaker
I love it. You see that a lot now, right? they're like During migration time, you'll see lights out. Yeah, lights out. Lights out. A lot of the big organizations are posting about it and and really kind of encouraging that. I just love that. I love seeing that in the real world, but then behind the scenes, there are people trying to figure this out. And like you said, there aren't a lot of people trying to figure this out and the impacts that it may have. I just don't know, I just, it's so cool to see you doing that, but also the world to be able to see a black woman doing something that is at the forefront of research and science. And I just get really excited about the work you all do and that specific work to your research is fascinating. Yours too, Lauren, as was in the news recently. we
00:25:30
Speaker
Gosh, like, excellence. Yeah, excellence. I'm like, wait a minute. I was like, I hadn't even heard of that bird until I was following you. You know, I was like, wait, now I know what this woodpecker is, you know? Yeah, I don't know. What? I was like, I don't know if I can, yeah. We made up. Yeah. I was like, is this a real bird? This is a real bird. But yeah, talk to us, Lauren, about your work with what you're doing with the red cockaded. Is that correct? Yes. Oh my goodness. You get a gold star because I can't tell you how. I can't tell you how. Talk to us about your research on the red-cockaded blue peckers. You're trying to balance studies such as like climate change and how they these birds are being impacted. Top of mind, relevant, really cool, but also a success story. yeah Talk to us a little bit about that
Climate Change and the Red-cockaded Woodpecker
00:26:21
Speaker
research. Yes, 100%. So as a PhD student, so my first year, the RCW, I chose as my focal species. And so for that, I got a cool two for one. So not only did I get to focus on this question about climate change and their impacts on this species reproductive success, because we know that climate change, it's real, no matter how much people want to deny it, I'm just gonna go ahead and just put it out there. That is real. So, you know, and it's it's one of those things where I think a lot of scientists and researchers want to know what does it mean for various species, and especially when it comes to an endangered species. So how is this going to impact the species? I got a cool two for one where I decided to make that my research question. So that's what I've been doing now. I'm in my fourth year. And so that's what I've been doing, you know, throughout my time here as a PhD, as a graduate student. Also, Also, I got to do this really cool thing where I got to give back to conservation. and so I was able to go out and actually participate and help with the monitoring and the management of the species. and it was like It's amazing. It gives it a whole new light when you're you know working with this huge dataset. This species has been studied. like
00:27:35
Speaker
I'm working with a data set that is like 40 plus a year. It's a high quality data set, probably one of the best data sets on an endangered species. And so it gave it a really a really more, it was really, it got more personal for me to be able to see where this data was coming from and for me to be able to say that i I contributed to this data and I contributed to this data set and it all just makes a whole bunch more sense and everything. It so i it was joy to, you know, i I developed a love for not only this bird, but also the longleaf pine ecosystem. So this bird is endemic to the longleaf pine ecosystem. So this is where they live ah year round. This is where they thrive. So we get into various things, right? Like prescribed fire. So we learn all about that and how this ecosystem thrives on prescribed fire. And then that's beneficial for this species and so many other plant and animal species within this ecosystem. So it's amazing. There was a lot of various components that I got to learn with my research. And my research is, you know, continuing to be ongoing, so I don't have any final things to say yet until, you know, the dissertation is done. I will say that it's what you said, Dexter. You know, this is a conservation success story. On October 24th of this year, this species was downlisted from endangered to threatened. Now it is a threatened species. And let's talk about that for a minute, because I feel like it's 50-50 with yeah how people are feeling. I tried to and i you know i tried to get people to see, especially those that gave back to conservation and who have been working with these species for years. Don't jump to the conclusion that, oh my gosh, this is horrible decision. Why would they do this? Take time to recognize you know that your effort got us to this point. your efforts got that species to this point. And so take some time to celebrate and recognize that. But then also, I feel like people also need to take time to kind of sit back and take it all in before we jump to any major conclusions. I took some time to read everything that was written up in the Federal Register. And it sounded like to me, and i've talked to I've talked to some more experts in the field, that it seems like nothing that much really is is changing. And you have to think that
00:29:48
Speaker
but Like the management for this species, a lot of other species in that ecosystem relies on the same management. It's almost like, you know, it's a win-win, right? Like we can't just stop the management for this bird or else other species are going to be, you know, impacted as well. The one thing that I could probably see, and this is just me speculating, changing could be potentially funding. This species has received a lot of funding over the years for its recovery. And so now with this new listing, you know, it could very well be that people or funding sources see it as like well. like, Oh, well, it's not, you know, endangered anymore. So that's that's a sign. So it could be that not not that much or not a lot of money, you know, as before is being filtered into the species. So that could be really the only thing that I could think of as being the like major change. But, I mean, other than that, I'm just really trying to get people to see, and for the most part they are, but especially my colleagues and people that I work with, I've tried to get them to see that, hey, recognize you know all of your efforts into this species is how it got to this point. So don't don't throw that out the window just because of the just this one decision. ah
00:30:54
Speaker
um The work is ongoing. It's ongoing and it's going to stay ongoing. And so it has been a joy for me because working with this species in particular, I think has provided me with a strong platform to not only advocate for the species, but advocate for diversity in you know the natural sciences. I bring students out with me when I do my fieldwork in the summer, I bring students out with me to the field, they get to see what it's all about, all the work that you put into it. And it's similar to what you said with Murray, right? People are seeing both of us in the field as being success stories, and you don't see that often.
00:31:28
Speaker
As we all know on this call, you do not see that often. Really, I mean, it's a it's a big job. It's really rewarding at the end of the day because we get so many messages from people who look like us who are just thrilled by like, oh, if you can be successful in this space, then I can too. so If you can see it, you can be it. You can exactly, exactly, Lord, I want to say this. I know the research is ongoing. Just promise us that you won't stop going out into the field and sharing photos of you looking like a super spy yeah youre with your little portable your low portable scope out there. That, I swear I laughed. So every time I see it, I'll be thinking, you like Charlie's angel out there, you know, like do like all like little super spy in the woods.
00:32:13
Speaker
I'll tell you what, man, the first time she made one of those funny videos climbing up the tree with the ladder that I was, I was, you know, we, we, we, we talked to Ike Isaiah Scott around like the value of being able to translate what you're doing into something that people can, can consume and learn. And that I'm going to tell you what I put in my show notes. I put in my show notes that you are quite possibly have done more on global social media scale to spread the good word about red cockaded woodpeckers and any other humans. I literally wrote that in my show notes. Because I don't know, like like literally right now, when I think of that species, I think of you. and i And I can see the babies in your hand. I can see you reaching in the hole. I can see you on the ladder. right I it. I love it.
00:32:59
Speaker
Yeah, I remember I went to go see them just north of Wilmington, North Carolina. I was down there on vacation with my family, and I was standing in a forest full of red-cockaded woodpeckers and Bachman sparrows, and I was like, oh, this is what it feels like. This is amazing, right? It's an amazing feeling. It is an amazing feeling. And I want to touch on something right quick that you said, too, about communicating the science that we do to a broader audience.
00:33:23
Speaker
I can tell people as much as I want that, oh yeah, this is what my typical day of field work is like. I go out and I climb trees and I ban birds and people are like, what? What does that look like? So anytime that i can I can put it on video or I can just video anything that I'm doing, it even if it's just using my spotting scope to scope out a bird and read color bands or climbing trees. Anytime that I can put a video to it and describe what I'm doing, it makes people, I think to me, it makes people care about it even more. And that's what I mean. And it's like what you said, like anytime someone goes somewhere and they see a red-cockaded woodpecker, or they hear one, or they think that that downy woodpecker, you know, in their backyard might be a RCW, they always tend to let me know.
00:34:10
Speaker
yeah i love it i love I teach science communication at the University of Wisconsin. And I always tell my students, if they want to tell real, they want to communicate science, show the work. show right not theine I'm in ah in a lab with a beaker. like that it doesn't It doesn't work though, right? What works is Lauren climbing a tree that's right and sneaking around you know trees with her spotting scope and like looking like either she's in like a new Call of Duty game or something. Show the work. It's fascinating. It makes people maybe want to Google. We always tell people, Google that. Google that. but like
00:34:50
Speaker
I can't tell you if some little black girl sees you doing research, she might say, Hey, that's it this is for me, Murray, yeah ah some little black girl, they're reading your children's books that are just wonderful. This is for me. When I see what you all are doing, you all are walking the walk and you're doing it in a way, you're young, you're you're at the forefront of a lot of these things. When I saw that article, the first person I thought about was Lauren Murray. When I see your books, I can't, it makes me think like, how do you hope that your books inspire the next generation of not only bird lovers, but environmental
Inspiring Young Bird Enthusiasts
00:35:29
Speaker
advocates? You know, I hope they get energized because I've seen firsthand right now as a professor in my department. I'm the first black professor in the wildlife department at Mississippi State. And so some students just seeing this change within the department, they're like coming into my office just to ask questions, just to hang out and are getting really engaged with just the research that I'm doing.
00:35:52
Speaker
Some of them, even if they're not like interested in birds that much, are just like, hey, I want to work with you just because of my identity and like how I show up in that space. And so I'm hoping that with my books, and ah in addition to the work that I do, um can reach that wider audience and get more people inspired and involved in the outdoor spaces, either recreationally or professionally. And then on top of that, like how many how many books, especially science books and nature books, do you see a person of color? Exactly. When I, when I got this book in the mail, I was so like, I might as well have been five. Cause I, and I actually, I took it with me one day birding and I sat in the field and read it in the field outside in the, in the afternoon sunlight. It is, it is stunning on almost every sense that a child could have the colors, the movement of the, of the illustration illustrated by Tamisha Anthony, right? Kudos. Yes. Yes. Huge shout out to my illustrator. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely insane. But the book again, it's called Sparrow loves birds. Um, you can find it through the hatchet book group or even on wherever you get your books generally, but Sparrow is just page one, curious, ready to go. Right. Ready to get outside, ready to you know, and And this is where this is where the words in the book and the journey that the book takes you on, the words and the illustration really complement each other so well because you get to the first pages and you know you can read the words and you're like, all right, cool. She's about to go out in the suburban neighborhood, going to look for some stuff.
00:37:38
Speaker
And you can see the motion and the colors moving through the page. And you're immediately seeing birds on the page. Right. And when I showed this book to my son, when I read it to my son, right, he was calling out some of the birds that we see in our yard. Um, like he knows what a Cardinal is. And that's on one of the first pages. Like was that, did you in the illustrator, Tamisha, did you, did you both come to that before you got it all together? Did that just kind of evolve as you, like, did you write the text first and then she drew it like hot? Cause it is absolutely amazing. Yeah, so that process was long but very fun. I wrote the text first and so found the illustrator later on and I was very intentional about wanting to have another young black person on as my illustrator just to like further celebrate what this book is really about. and black people in the outdoors enjoying the experience and having fun. And as she was doing the illustrations for this, we were having, I guess, two main goals. One, trying to keep it like, you know, as accurate as possible, because, you know, it's supposed to be a beginner's field guide. We want the markings to be pretty close to what you would see in real life, but also keeping that aspect of fun and whimsy throughout it as well. So it's not like, you know, a boring textbook, learn your birds. I just wanted to be fun and enjoyable. And I want to say that just Tamisha was not a bird person when she first came on, but she told me in working through this book, she is now a birder and she got her own little pair of binoculars and she's out there now. Plus one, plus one for the birder. As if you didn't have enough wins to celebrate, let's go. Y'all making new birds too. So me and Tamisha just want to, we want to share that joy with children and every single review from my parents say I read this to my kid and they love it. I read this to my kid and now we're outside. We read it together outside every night and we call out the birds as they go by. There was one review who, this person has a one-year-old and they point to the pages and say duck at every bird.
00:39:36
Speaker
And it's like the most adorable things. Like we're done to work on learning the actual names, but they love just the book and the story of it too. And so every single review that I get just warms my heart and and I can't wait to keep on with the series. Make sure y'all get that book. You can actually see it sitting on the shelf behind Mary back there, the beautiful, beautiful artwork there and the representation of this book. I just, it's it's just, oh,
00:40:02
Speaker
It warms my bird nerd heart. I would just say that. It is fascinating. Let's shift a little bit. We're going to get out of here. We're going to keep you all all day, even though I want to keep talking to you all. I do. I really do want to keep you for another hour. So I'm sorry. Yeah, like this is so good. Y'all done a great job. We covered a lot of ground.
00:40:25
Speaker
and That's what we try to do and we try to do it in a way where we're laughing and we're having fun and then you look up and you're like, holy cow, we've been talking for 45 minutes about this stuff and it doesn't feel like it. um Like I said, the work is what matters and and what's been your most memorable or surprising experience in the field? I have like two floating around in my head and I was like,
00:40:54
Speaker
I don't want to pick the sad one, so it's like, let me go with the funny one, I guess. I don't know. We can go with either one. When I was a grad student, my field site was in a rural North Carolina, a snow camp. And I was working outside every day in this ah barn. And it's this rural area, Confederate flags, Trump supporters, just all over the place.
00:41:16
Speaker
I promise this is the funny story, not the sad one. um so As part of my just like you know personal safety precautions, I would bring my dog to the field all the time. and um so I would be like working. My dog is just like sniffing, digging, whatever dogs do. and there was partway through one of our field seasons, there's cows on this farm. And so the owner of the farm had put up an electric fence to keep the cows in one area. And so I saw that it's an electric fence and I'm just like, how electric is this electric fence? So just like, I don't want to like touch it. I'm just going to leave it there. And I'm worried about my dog too. It's just like, well, he is supposed to have better senses than me. So if I know it's electric, He knows it's electric and we're good About 30 minutes later. I'm up on the ladder not nearly as tall as Lauren's ladders. I have very short ladders
00:42:11
Speaker
I'm up on the ladder and I just hear this huge dog scream from like distance in the field. I'm like, oh no, Loki, he touched the fence. I immediately fall off the ladder. He's just he's galloping back towards me, like just scared, ears flat. And I'm just like, okay, clearly you're not a country dog. I'm so sorry, don't know a couple of trainings.
00:42:34
Speaker
types of you know his fellow little Dog encounters out in the field have been like my favorite part. I miss bringing my dog to work every day Loki was gonna learn that day say loki lot grace we love it what a Great story you love it What about you, Lauren? Yeah, you know what? I would say, I would say for me, the most memorable day was when, was when we had PBS out filming myself and my research. That was a really, that was a really great day. One, I was like, you know, mama, I made it. I'm like, I'm not. It's just me and Big Bird on PBS now.
00:43:26
Speaker
Hey, that's the next step. We're going to be on Sesame Street. talking about That's right. Speak it into existence. I would say that was my very, that was the most memorable day for me in the field. And then also too, I got to do it. I got to film alongside one of my colleagues. So he works for the wildlife resources commission. a huge, huge lover and very knowledgeable about RCWs and Longleaf Pine. I kind of dragged him into it. So he wasn't really expecting it, but I was kind of like, Hey, I'm gonna have a film crew out here. You want to be? And at first, like I knew he was like, Oh my gosh. Like, what is this? but then
00:44:03
Speaker
Absolutely, like it was a day full of nothing but pure joy. So we got to film me climbing trees. We got to film me walking back and forth with my four ladder sets about five um million times to get a great shot. So I got my extra five that was great. But really, and so from that, I cannot tell you how many people ended up reaching out to me and they'll still reach out to me that have said, you know, like, Oh my gosh, like I i have, you know, my daughter, you know, she saw you on PBS, and she was so thrilled to see a person of color on PBS, but then also you doing what you were doing. We were like, oh my gosh, what is she doing? We don't know, but that looks so cool. So again, going back to, you know, as you were talking about with Ike, and then Murray has it with her book, and then I do it with all the forms of science communication that I can do, whether it be, you know, being on a wonderful podcast like y'alls or on TV or writing for a blog. Oh no, I'm blushing again.
00:45:12
Speaker
That really anyway that we can continue and then you know with with Dexter with you teaching your science communication case I I cannot advocate enough especially to scientists and researchers to incorporate science communication in some way shape or form into your work like Some people probably look at it as extra work. We all all four of us on here look at it as rewarding work Like, we want to take what we do beyond, you know, our academic publications and we want people to really understand why we do what we do and why we love it. So, any kind of, you know, science communication that you can bring to a wider audience and, you know, have them enjoy what you do and have them learn about what you do. That whole, you know, PBS segment, I was one rooting for, they hadn't done one in probably like 10 years. So, I was like on RCW. So, I was like, oh, this is perfect timing. This is perfect timing. So a little update, but also showing a person that looks like you. And so, you know, so on top of that, getting that out of it, and then also showing what I do, showing what a typical day in the field is like, it's like combining all of that. So anytime, like all four of us are doing that, I, it's so rewarding. So I continue to advocate to people like, just do it, just go for it. Cause you're, you're changing so many minds and opening up your mind. especially when we're talking about conservation and what people are caring about. Absolutely. So, you know, it's how you have to hook people nowadays. Got to inspire that next generation of scientists. That's it. Well, we are trying to do that on this podcast. We talked about, I mean, Heavy dose of science communication already. We talked to Ike, who was a young black man that's studying science communication out at Cornell, myself teaching it at the University of Wisconsin as a full-time faculty member. We are changing what people think about it. I mean, Jason talking about working in vaccines for almost two decades, but talking about why science communication was needed, but it was not available at one of the most important times in our country.
Expanding Field Inclusive Workshops
00:47:20
Speaker
It's so needed. So thank you both for, I mean, just showing the work being there for, for, for our people and yeah creating opportunities for people that you may didn't have as you were coming up, as you continue to do the work, but what, what, listen.
00:47:36
Speaker
Before we wrap up, I i would love to to end here. What exciting projects or initiatives are on the horizon for field inclusive and how can listeners get involved and support the amazing work that you all are doing? Yes. So right now we are working really hard at improving and expanding our workshop offerings. So we do both virtual virtual options and in-person options. And we're working so that there are different modules that you can add on depending on what your needs are. um different links of time, different activities that you can add on. And we are really hoping to be able to cater to everybody who has asked us for a workshop so far, ah many returning customers and a whole host of new customers that we're hoping to get to and share this workshop with. And so um being able to support us in doing that, we are interested. Of course, if you are able to make a donation to Field Inclusive, we highly, highly appreciate that. Almost 100% of our donations go right back into producing a product that we're giving to somebody else, whether that be our workshops or our scholarships.
00:48:42
Speaker
barely and the other like one or two percent is for our operating costs. So everything that you give is going to a good purpose. I mean for y'all to only be operating at one, two percent. Make sure y'all go show that support because that is that is absolutely incredible for a nonprofit. I'm sorry and I didn't mean that.
00:49:01
Speaker
small operating costs. And then um two, we are also looking for volunteers who are interested in getting involved, whether that be um learning how to be a workshop trainer or even just advocating to get your group or your institution interested in taking one of our trainings. That's a huge help as well. Spreading the word is is super important for us still.
00:49:21
Speaker
Wow, I can't imagine a better way to wrap that up. And I'm going to link everything in the show notes. So you will be able to find both of them on multiple platforms yeah to contribute, to support, to share. I love hearing that you guys have a long list of groups that want to work with you. I hope that just continues in perpetuity and and exponentially. Thank you both very much for spending some time with us. I'm a little bit starstruck. I'm just trying to Smile and enjoy myself here. like you know i really I hope we did it justice for folks to really see the amount of work and you know as important as that is, the amount of joy that you both bring to what you do, both in academia and outreach in the nonprofit world is absolutely ah inspiring. so Thank you both very much for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you for providing us. And thanks to both of you for continuing with this platform. It's going to be super important now more than ever for us to keep talking, keep doing what we're doing and spreading that joy. So thank you. Thank you. And thank you to everybody for joining us today on the bird joy podcast. We hope you all have enjoyed exploring the world of birding with Lauren and Murray today from field inclusive.
00:50:39
Speaker
Shout out to the BIPOC Birding Club of Wisconsin. Fall and winter events are going to be a lot of fun. Y'all know how we get down. We bird 12 months a year. Check out BIPOC Birding Club.org. Yes, yes, yes. And for the homies and Philly, as usual in color birding.org, we'll be getting out. You can come hang out. We can talk field inclusive and I can show you Lauren's Instagram page and we can hang out. but also Also, I will say it again, fieldinclusive.org. That is for everyone in the country. But if you haven't looked yet, you are near Raleigh and want to make a trip, Field Inclusive Week, January 12th through 18th. So definitely check it out. This was another fun one. It was, it was. And please share, subscribe, and shout out the pod to all your fellow birders. Help us spread a little bird joy. Let's go.