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Certainty Not Required
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“The anxiety around uncertainty is caused by the belief that we need certainty to act."
Episode 9: Certainty Not Required
Embracing Uncertainty, Setbacks, and Serendipity in the Creative Life
What if the need for certainty is actually the thing keeping you stuck?
In this episode of Be. Make. Do., Lisa and Dan explore how uncertainty, setbacks, and even mistakes can become powerful catalysts for creative and vocational freedom. Drawing from Scripture and lived experience, they look at how figures like Abraham, Sarah, and Ruth navigated the unknown—and what their stories teach us about faithful action without guarantees.
You’ll discover why certainty isn’t required to move forward, how action itself can become part of discernment, and how to recognize serendipity as an “expected unexpected” in the creative life.
Helpful Resources:
- Download your FREE Vocation Trap Tracker: www.soulmakers.org/bemakedo
- Discover Your Artist Archetype → Take the Free Quiz at soulmakers.org
- Download the Full Artist Archetypes Guide for deeper insight: www.soulmakers.org/bemakedo
- Read the article, Vocation's Unbroken Chain: Biblical Call Stories and the
Experience of Vocation by Chris Keeton
Connect & Share:
- Subscribe to Be. Make. Do. for more in the Vocation Traps series
- Share this episode with a friend or creative you know
- Join the conversation on socials using #VocationTrapsPodcast
- Join our brand new Instagram Broadcast Channel!
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Transcript
Comfort with Uncertainty
00:00:00
Speaker
On a scale of one to 10, how comfortable are you with not knowing? Do you find yourself waiting for permission, a sign, or a safety net? In this episode, we are asking, what if the need for certainty is actually the trap?
00:00:26
Speaker
Hello, welcome back to Be, Make, Soulmakers podcast, where we explore what it takes to live out your call in the arts with spiritual wholeness and creative freedom.
00:00:37
Speaker
I'm your host, Lisa Smith, here with our producer, Danny BH. Hello, everyone. And it is our passion to encourage you to become who you are created to be, make what you were created to make, and do what you were created to do.
Podcast Introduction
00:00:52
Speaker
Now, so far in this season of the Be Make Do podcast, we've been exploring the vocation traps and how to get unstuck. Last time, we talked about one of our tools for getting free of the traps, embracing a proper view of our abilities.
00:01:06
Speaker
This time, we're picking up a tool to break the icy anxiety that keeps us frozen by learning to embrace uncertainty, setbacks, and serendipity.
Vocation Traps and Uncertainty
00:01:17
Speaker
We'll also check out how biblical figures like Abraham and Sarah and Ruth navigated the fog of the unknown.
00:01:24
Speaker
Let's get started.
00:01:35
Speaker
So let's talk about uncertainty. So Dan, on a scale of one to 10, how comfortable are you with not knowing? I think for me, the season specifically, what's going on with me creatively and spiritually right now, I would say I'm at a five.
00:01:53
Speaker
You're at five. I'm at a five. With 10 being super comfortable, I'm like sort of like, I'm definitely in the middle.
Biblical Examples of Handling Uncertainty
00:02:00
Speaker
Yeah. um And I feel like i zigzag between a three and a seven depending on what's going on.
00:02:06
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I and don't know. I think I'm, ah generally speaking, I am not very okay with uncertainty. I really don't like it. Like on on and one level, like I like ideas where I don't know the answer and then I get to kind of play with it, but that's ideas. But in life,
00:02:26
Speaker
like i don't not I don't like not knowing what's going on in somebody else's head or like where things are. like I want to map the whole thing out so I know where I'm going and what we're doing. So I would say I'm i'm pretty low like most of the time. I'm probably down there in a...
00:02:43
Speaker
And a three, but it's weird because there's also the faith element and sometimes, yeah, I think that then goes up to a seven. Ooh, okay. that That's an interesting insight though, because I realize that's where I'm placing the uncertainty within the context of faith with God.
Personal Comfort Levels with Uncertainty
00:03:02
Speaker
So that it's like, I'm certain about God.
00:03:05
Speaker
So I have more comfortability with uncertainty. Hey, boom, there's the podcast. Okay. Thanks for listening. Thanks guys. We'll see you next time. Yeah, I think there's never really a direct answer to what leads to insurgency. For me, it's always the question, where is this leading?
00:03:22
Speaker
Right? how How am I going to know? I think the culture always tells us you need to know where this is leading. But faith doesn't tell us that. Yeah, I really think uncertainty is the biggest hangup for Christians in the arts.
00:03:38
Speaker
Like we want to know, we want to know that it's going to be good. we want to know how well it will be received. We want to No, we won't make anybody mad. We wanna know it's gonna make an impact. We wanna know it's exactly what God wants us to do. you know we want to know exactly how God wants us to do it. We wanna know when. We want assurances that'll work out. We wanna know we're capable. wanna know we can handle whatever comes next. We wanna know it's gonna be good. We wanna know how we're gonna make money. We wanna know before we act.
00:04:13
Speaker
And that need to know just causes so much anxiety. But here's the thing. Here's the question that we're exploring today is what if I said that certainty is not required for faithful action?
Acting Without Certainty
00:04:32
Speaker
Now, I brought up Chris Keaton in the last episode in his great article about vocation. He says a lot of things that I really find very helpful. And I'm just going to quote part of that article because what he says is so good.
00:04:45
Speaker
He writes, the anxiety around uncertainty is caused by the belief that we need certainty to act but we don't journeys entail seasons of hardship or even regression but certainty is not required god consistently leaves in mystery even in the most particular calls Uncertainty can become a freeing catalyst for action when we realize that taking a few steps in a direction doesn't lock us into that path for life.
00:05:18
Speaker
Instead, it can become part of the discernment process. When I first read that, I was kind of floored. Like it it really struck me how foreign that thought felt that that anxiety around uncertainty is caused by the belief that we need certainty to act.
00:05:37
Speaker
I mean, i i know that certainty isn't something you always get. I know that. I experienced that. And I know that faith is acting even before you see evidence. But I think reading that statement made me realize just how much I did believe in my gut that I need certainty. Or I definitely still want it anyway. Yeah.
00:05:57
Speaker
But I do, I love to sit with good, challenging questions. And so this is a really good, challenging question for us to sit and wrestle with. Like, what changes if I challenge the assumption that I need certainty to act in whatever the circumstances? And what changes if I start to realize that the anxiety I feel about not knowing is coming from the false belief that I need to know, right? The anxiety isn't about not knowing.
00:06:29
Speaker
The anxiety is about believing I need to know. Like it's kind of like a little mind puzzle there for me. What do you think about that? Is that something, does that kind of blow your mind or is that just me?
00:06:43
Speaker
No, I mean, I i feel that 100%. It just makes me think like trusting without knowing the outcome is in itself faith. Yeah, yeah.
00:06:54
Speaker
Yeah, I just feel like it's so, to to start to wrap my mind around that becomes so freeing, like to identify the source of anxiety. It's like it's like i'm distracted, I'm looking over here. i think that anxiety about not knowing is the problem. And then i when I realized what's actually causing me anxiety is this belief that I even need to know and to start shifting my brain to think, I actually, i don't need to know uncertainty isn't a problem, then there's some freedom in that.
00:07:27
Speaker
You know? And I think being able to know that, exactly what you just said, while it's happening, as opposed to way later on when you look back at something and you're like, why do I have so much anxiety?
00:07:40
Speaker
Yeah. During that, as opposed to right when it happens, be like, this anxiety is not actually this. It's coming from all these other things. Yeah. it's stopping me from doing the thing that I'm supposed to be doing. Yeah. We're worried that we're not going to be able to handle it. And so we want to know all those challenges up front or what it is so that we'll be able to figure it out instead of having the faith that we will be able to handle it. I heard somebody talk about the buffalo.
00:08:10
Speaker
And when in, okay, so like on the prairie, when it's total blizzard conditions, that what used to happen, like cows would get frozen in place and freeze to death basically because when the storm was coming, they would try to outrun the storm. And of course the storm catches up with them and they can't get out of it because the storm travels with them.
00:08:34
Speaker
But buffalo do the opposite. They turn around and they face the storm. and go through it. And they actually get out to the other side faster because the storm is going one direction and they're going into the storm and out the storm. And so they survive by turning around and facing the storm instead of running away from it.
00:08:56
Speaker
And that is just such a powerful image for me. I actually have an image on my computer screen of Buffalo like going into the storm to remind me of that to instead of running away from the uncertainty or what's making me afraid or anxious to just turn around and face it and go into it trusting that I'm going to be able to handle what comes in.
00:09:18
Speaker
So as we go through these vocation traps, I think it's helpful to know that that anxiety and those feelings are just human things. You know, it's not a modern thing, anxiety. It's not a me thing. It's it's a human thing. And even people like Abraham...
00:09:36
Speaker
Abraham and Sarah and Ruth had to deal with uncertainty as they tried to follow God faithfully. So there is this dance as people of faith between uncertainty and faithfulness and being comfortable with that. But I think there are a lot of parallels, obviously, as I said at the beginning, for the creative life. And then put those two things together as a Christian who's creative. i think the more we can get comfortable with that uncertainty and and even invited in, the the better off that we are.
Faith and Endurance through Uncertainty
00:10:06
Speaker
If you really think about it, if you think about Abraham and Sarah, they're a really good example. Because of all the calling stories in the Bible, Abraham's is probably the most like what we'd like to have.
00:10:20
Speaker
Like you can read it in in chapter 12 of Genesis. Most of us would really prefer a calling from God like Abraham's that's clear and direct and has everything we need attached to it. And that seems to be Abraham's story. i mean, Abraham had an actual encounter with God. They spent time together.
00:10:39
Speaker
God told Abraham exactly what he was up to He made a covenant with Abraham that he would make him the father of a nation. And he told him that his children would be more numerous than the stars.
00:10:53
Speaker
And he even marked this call by changing Abram's name to Abraham. Like his call was as clear and direct as it gets. And yet, Abraham and his wife, Sarah, didn't get any actual details on when or how this whole thing was going to play out, which was really kind of problematic for them on a number of levels.
00:11:17
Speaker
For one thing, Sarah was barren. She was medically unable to have children. And then by the time God even called them to this, they were both too old to have children anyway. He was 75 and she was 65. And they actually ended up waiting another 25 years before they had this promised child. This 25 years of unknowing and things not looking like what God had promised.
00:11:45
Speaker
So even in this direct call, there was this period of delay and a lack of specificity, which means, I would think, a lot of uncertainty, Right. And as the years go on, they really start to wonder, like, what's going on here? Which would feel like a major setback. Like, we're supposed to get going with this nation-building thing, and we don't even have a baby.
00:12:09
Speaker
a setback is, let's define that as a season of difficulty, of hardship, or regression that's caused by an outside force, something that's out of our control. So Sarah's inability to get pregnant. Right.
00:12:22
Speaker
We can also cause setbacks through our own actions and those we typically call mistakes, right? So, and Abraham and Sarah made lots of those too because of the uncertainty. We can all relate to this story.
00:12:38
Speaker
And at one point, they started to think that maybe God needed a hand in pulling this whole thing off and They became impatient with the waiting and the not knowing and maybe a little fearful that things weren't going to happen unless they made it happen.
00:12:54
Speaker
Chosen trap anyone? Call back. So they made plenty of mistakes because of that uncertainty. And in fact, they made some really serious mistakes, including forcing another woman to have Abraham's child.
00:13:08
Speaker
Check that out in Genesis 16. And yet, and yet Abraham and Sarah are known for their faithfulness. So those uncertain times weren't the end of the story.
00:13:21
Speaker
So what can we learn about how to think about uncertainty, setbacks, and mistakes from their story? Now, as I said, setbacks are seasons of difficulty, hardship, or regression caused by outside forces. Mistakes are setbacks that we cause for ourself.
00:13:39
Speaker
Now, it's these setbacks and mistakes that we're afraid of in the midst of uncertainty. The setbacks make us doubt and we're afraid of making mistakes.
00:13:50
Speaker
And Abraham and Sarah, just like us, experienced a lot of uncertainty, setbacks, and mistakes. While their call was direct and clear, it still took them years to mature into their calling.
00:14:06
Speaker
So I just take from that that it's totally cool if that's our story too. Like, in fact, they had to go through uncertainty, setbacks, and mistakes before they saw God's promises fulfilled.
00:14:21
Speaker
God didn't give them specifics about how he would fulfill his plans. It wasn't until they learned to trust God's provision and timing that they reach their full potential. Learning to trust those takes daily practice.
00:14:39
Speaker
So we all and encounter setbacks and make mistakes in the uncertainty, but just like them, we can learn to embrace setbacks as part of the journey and ask forgiveness when we make mistakes and learn to make less mistakes by trusting more.
00:14:57
Speaker
In his article, again, Chris Keaton points out, uncertainty can actually become a freeing catalyst for action when we realize that taking a step in a direction doesn't lock us into that path for life. Instead, it can become part of the discernment process.
00:15:15
Speaker
We draw that back to them through the setbacks and mistakes, Abraham and Sarah learned what it meant to trust God. They became faithful, even as they tried it their way time and again. And I just think that is so freeing to know that like a choice you make doesn't lock you in for life. And then it's just an opportunity. Every every choice, everything you do is just an opportunity to learn something.
00:15:38
Speaker
And then like our biblical icons, keep moving forward. Keep believing that God will do what he said and allow God to shape us through the process.
00:15:50
Speaker
Like at the very beginning, Abram, Before his name was changed, Abram was confused about how God would do this thing. But Abraham went up onto the mountain prepared even to sacrifice his own beloved son, knowing God would do what was best. Like I cannot even imagine the level of spiritual formation it takes to get to that level of faithfulness.
00:16:19
Speaker
But it was through that process of daily learning to trust that that Abraham got to that point where he learned to trust God and keep moving even in the midst of the most terrifying uncertainty.
00:16:34
Speaker
let's just What what do you think about that, Dan? Let's just chat about that for just a second. This idea that taking steps in uncertainty can actually be part of the discernment process.
00:16:46
Speaker
Going back to the Buffalo thing, I think i that's such a good visual too. it's just like being able to push through if you're able to and not paralyze by that uncertainty.
00:16:58
Speaker
i know I know in my heart and my mind that absolutely something is going to happen. It might be a gigantic mistake, but I'm going to learn something through that mistake. But it's easier for me to feel paralyzed and to just sit there and be like, well, I'd rather not do anything because I'm not sure where this is going to lead. And I think discernment is a big part of that of going through the storm and taking chances. And another thing about getting paralyzed by uncertainty is that we, well, okay, I won't say we, but for me, I always think once I make that decision to do something, it's one and done and it's not fixable.
00:17:39
Speaker
When the actual case is that not only is it fixable, it's malleable. So even if you do make a decision and get through this paralyzing thing um or get through this anxiety, that doesn't mean the decision that you made isn't changeable, you know, and it's malleable. so Yeah.
00:18:01
Speaker
I love that. And you brought up discernment. And I think it's it's interesting. Maybe it's just in my head, but I feel like most of the time when we think about discernment, there's the sense of like withdrawing, being quiet, waiting, you know, in prayer, which is definitely huge part of discernment is that listening and waiting.
00:18:22
Speaker
But yeah, What we're talking about is kind of adding discernment part two is action. It's like, you know, once you have a sense of something, move, and then you'll get more information, you know, which happens all the time. Like you make a choice and then you find out.
00:18:38
Speaker
oh, I don't like to eat that food, you know, but you, you, it's, it's not a problem. You learn it more information, which helps you make decisions in the next round. Yeah. Yeah. i I love that. You just said that because I, I do think of the sermon in a two part thing because it's not just like, I'm, I'm doing some really good thinking over here and now I'm done. Right. It's like, it's being in prayer. It's ah thinking it's resting, which is very hard for a lot of people. And if you're not rested, you're just going to have anxiety anyways. Right. But then there's that process of then making a decision based upon that discernment. Yeah.
00:19:18
Speaker
You what i mean? And, you know, I think in the creative process itself, that is pretty obvious and okay, even though it's hard, you I think we, we tend to find, I know in acting, this is true. I can imagine in like trying to write music, it's true. Like you get to a point and you get stuck.
00:19:36
Speaker
You don't, you know, it's not quite working. It's, it's feeling off and feeling wrong. And the only way out of that is to make some sort of choice and follow that through, see how it sounds, see what that choice does on stage and then learn from that. But it's always those, those points where you really feel stuck It's like that storm, like when you turn around and face the storm, it it it does feel freeing because you you make a choice and you go into a whole new world and you experience something and know something and then either it works and it works way better than you could have ever imagined and you wouldn't have known that until you just went into it or you really know it didn't work and so you can put it down and move on to something else. And I think it's easy to freeing
00:20:26
Speaker
afraid to let go of things when it's like a career choice or, um you know, maybe you've been working on a project for forever, you've been working with other people forever, and it's hard to to make the choice to put that down in order to pick something else up or to try something else because you don't know. You don't know how that's all going to go. And it's freeing to remember that Part of the creative process is doing that. We do actually know how to do that. And we can use those tools to make make these other kinds of decisions as well. Plus, we're trusting God to lead us that even if we make a wrong choice or even if we make a mistake, we're not alone.
00:21:05
Speaker
we haven't been abandoned at that point. Mm-hmm. Okay, well, before we finish up, there's there's another thing that happens in this uncertainty space too, and we could call it serendipity.
Ruth's Journey of Faith
00:21:16
Speaker
Anyone who's a fan of The Artist's Way is familiar with serendipity.
00:21:20
Speaker
It sounds like a very 70s term, seven serendipity, but it's basically the experience that sometimes when we are busy in the daily faithful action, fulfilling our daily duties, God shows up.
00:21:36
Speaker
I can't think of a better example of this story than Ruth. I love the story of Ruth. And you can easily find it if you haven't read it in the Bible. She's got her own book titled simply Ruth. Very easy to find.
00:21:48
Speaker
But in Ruth's case, it's almost the exact opposite, this calling story. There's no direct call at all. She is just in extreme uncertainty.
00:22:00
Speaker
Everything about Ruth's circumstances were uncertain and filled with setbacks and challenges. When we meet Ruth, her husband, brothers, father-in-law have all died. And now she's faced with caring for her mother-in-law in poverty.
00:22:15
Speaker
and not only that, but they're living in a foreign land in the middle of a famine. So they have no resources, no family, basically no future. But even though Ruth has suffered bereavement and famine and loss of identity, she chooses to be faithful the best way she knew how, by relying on the faith and wisdom of her mother-in-law, which meant faith in her God.
00:22:42
Speaker
So Ruth is a woman with no plan, no power, no special ability, no inspiring calling story, just very simple but strong dedication. Now, I think it's important to realize Ruth wasn't even hearing from God.
00:23:00
Speaker
She was following the faithfulness of Naomi and her people. She exhibited incredible humility and self-sacrifice and purity of character.
00:23:11
Speaker
And along the way, she experiences these wonderful serendipities. It's just such a beautiful story. when When Ruth goes with Naomi, basically crawling back to Naomi's hometown, Ruth is instructed to go out in the fields and pick up leftover grain as a way for them to just survive.
00:23:32
Speaker
And as Ruth is faithful in these little, very humble, menial acts, she just happens to go to the field of the one person who could help them.
00:23:44
Speaker
And he just happens to be there that day and is impressed with her. And he just happens to be the kind of guy who's looking for a girl with this kind of character and is willing to take the steps to marry her. And on and on, the story is just filled like that.
00:24:01
Speaker
Ruth's is a story that illustrates how by being faithfully present in the little things, sometimes we quote unquote find ourselves where we were hoping to go.
00:24:15
Speaker
Sometimes we just happen to be in the right place at the right time. But as is usually the case, the fact that she was in the right posture and the right frame of mind turned circumstances into serendipity, a chance for God to do something special.
00:24:35
Speaker
And this is the second thing we can do in that uncertainty, embrace serendipity as an expected unexpected and be ready for it when it happens.
00:24:47
Speaker
I think that that is a beautiful companion to getting comfortable with setbacks and mistakes is learning to expect God to act.
00:25:00
Speaker
And to so in that, like we were talking about taking steps and taking actions as part of the discernment process, right? to believe that God is right there with you, ready to be in conversation, to be in dialogue, to like give you feedback and to show up and and honor those little faithful choices.
00:25:20
Speaker
have you Have you ever experienced that, Dan, where you're like, things just kind of work out or you happen to be in the right place at the right time or things just, but it it really, it's it's like, whoa, because you were ready.
00:25:34
Speaker
You know, you were doing the things all along to be ready when it happened. Yeah. Yeah, several times in my life, but I think one of them was taking a giant leap of faith with with huge uncertainty when um I first chose to move to the DC area from Florida. like That was such a a snap decision, but it it and it had so much uncertainty. I didn't know anyone really here. It's so far away from Florida. um I just remember that point in my life where this really feels true, where I made a leap of faith without even knowing it was a leap of faith.
00:26:18
Speaker
And it opened up all these doors. And then within just a few months of moving here, my life really felt like... it all started to kind of come together, if that makes sense, without going too into detail. But that was a very, always remember that moment because of how I got here was based upon that decision and not knowing, I mean, not knowing what was going to happen, not knowing if I was going to find a job, not knowing if I was going to be able to build a community, um if I was going to ah make a living, you know what I mean? If I was going to meet any friends. And ah all of that came true within just a few months of me making that decision to to move here by myself with not really a plan, but just a dedication to
00:27:08
Speaker
um wants something different. Yeah. And so I think that takes a great leap of faith. And also, um, it was serendipitous in a way because it was, how did you frame that? Uncertain, what was it? Unexpected, expected. What was that? expected Yeah. The, uh, to expect the and unexpected serendipity. Yeah.
00:27:31
Speaker
Yeah. For sure. And it's it's so interesting too, because I remember at that time, like when when we started working together, you were doing stuff here and we heard about your, you know, you're telling us your story to to come here. And I think we all just sort of had this sense of, whoa, like God is doing something in his life. He doesn't know it yet and we're not going to say anything, but clearly there's, God's got a hand on this, this whole process. So yeah, it's it's crazy. Yeah.
00:28:00
Speaker
Yeah. It's really, um i think another ah unexpected expectedness or whatever is this image of God scooping you and then placing you somewhere else. And that's how I felt about that decision to come here. Like I was scooped.
00:28:18
Speaker
Yeah. Because I didn't have really much anxiety. I was uncertain, but i was like, this has to work out and yeah to be placed. And then within that place, I was able to help build a community that I wanted to be a part of.
00:28:35
Speaker
And it was actually easier being in a foreign area, if that makes sense. Yeah. So I think that's a great example too. like You couldn't know that.
00:28:47
Speaker
You wouldn't know that the very challenge is that you might be worried about would actually be the things that would help you. The fact that you don't know anybody, the fact that you're starting from scratch.
00:28:58
Speaker
Like that's such a great example of
Embracing Recklessness with Faith
00:29:00
Speaker
that. And then I think with experience over time, once you start to experience that repeatedly, Then you start to to, that's when you start to expect that unexpected serendipity and it gets fun.
00:29:12
Speaker
Like I really, had a couple years, a year or so ago, i really felt like, and this sounds ridiculous, but I felt like Jesus was saying, be reckless with me.
00:29:24
Speaker
And I was like, what? What does that even mean? Like, you're reckless. But as i I just had this image of that being so invitational in a playful way, but also challenging my idea of what I needed or or what I needed to be certain of. That my feeling of what's reckless is not really that reckless at all. you know And so the invitation is like...
00:29:47
Speaker
it's It's just like Jesus is saying, i have so much to give you. i have so, there's so much here. You can handle so much. We can handle so much together. Don't hold back. So our our biblical icons are modeling that way to act in the face of uncertainty by embracing setbacks and mistakes as part of the journey and learning to expect the unexpected serendipity.
00:30:13
Speaker
So then like Abraham and Sarah, we can learn to see God's faithfulness in the everyday. allowing us to develop that deep trust in God's provision. And so then that gives us freedom to act with confidence, knowing God will give us what is needed to fulfill the task. And then on the other side, like Ruth, we can become comfortable with uncertainty and rely on the faith and wisdom of others for guidance.
00:30:39
Speaker
And expect and embrace serendipity and God's providence. And when we understand that uncertainty doesn't mean that there's something wrong, and we can get comfortable with the idea that we don't need certainty to act, we're more likely to take a few provisional steps in a particular direction and just see what happens.
00:30:59
Speaker
Turn around and face that storm. be reckless. So now uncertainty can become an exciting opportunity for action instead of this daunting paralysis and action becomes a healthy part of discernment and growth.
Closing Thoughts on Uncertainty and Action
00:31:14
Speaker
Now, remember at the beginning, I read that the stress that arises from feelings of uncertainty comes from the feeling that certainty is required. I want you to walk away trying to wrap your head around the idea that certainty is not required because embracing the freedom and uncertainty is a sure way to escape any of the vocation traps.
00:31:38
Speaker
Next time, we're gonna wrap this up talking about finding freedom by learning to practice faithfulness in the everyday, regardless of circumstances. Talk to you next time.
00:31:51
Speaker
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00:32:07
Speaker
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