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How Technology & AI Impact Our Nervous Systems
1.1k Plays6 days ago
In this episode of Wired for Connection, we chat with Stephen Hanmer D'Elia, a therapist and writer, on the topics of technology and artificial intelligence (AI).
Stephen shares how phones, social media, and AI induce cognitive overload, impacting our nervous systems and putting us in defensive states. We talk about how technology shapes physiology and captures attention, often mimicking traumatized clients that Stephen sees in his practice.
Stephen breaks down three tech-driven nervous system patterns. First, variable reinforcement, where unpredictability keeps the body checking for the next reward. Second, open loops, where notifications, feeds, and interruptions keep the system unfinished and unable to settle. Third, simulated connection without real co-regulation, where technology gives enough signal to engage us but not enough relational feedback to actually co-regulate with us.
On AI, Stephen offers a powerful distinction between scaffolding and substitution. AI can help create a boundary or draft a clean response in a tense moment, but it becomes harmful when it starts impacting our tolerance for discomfort and awkwardness. This is an important conversation for anyone wondering whether AI is helping them think more clearly or quietly shrinking their capacity.
To learn more about Stephen, head to his website. You can explore his writing here.
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Transcript
Introduction to Nervous System and Trauma
00:00:00
Speaker
Once you capture nervous system, everything else follows, right? That's where it all starts. And work with trauma and all of our work is a nervous system that's restricted, that's constricted, that's shut down, that's always an alert. It's a body that's that's that's that small, that's constricted, that is limited, that is more easy to influence, to control. Welcome back to Wired for Connection, a polyvagal podcast. I'm your host. my name is Travis Goodman. I'm a licensed therapist and a mind-body coach. And today I am joined by Steven Hamner-D'Elia. Steven is a licensed clinical social worker and holds a JD. For over 25 years, he has worked at the intersection of trauma systems and relationship across settings ranging from therapy rooms to city agencies to global institutions. He brings a deeply cross-cultural lens shaped by work across five continents, and he writes and speaks about how we are shaped not only by what happens to us, but by how we are met.
Technology's Impact on Human Behavior
00:00:57
Speaker
And today we are specifically looking at the intersection of technology and our nervous system.
00:01:03
Speaker
Stephen, so in I'm curious, in in brief, could you share a bit more about who you are and what problem you're trying to solve with your work? Sure. um So it's it's great to be here. um And so a little bit about myself. So I'm a therapist. I'm a social worker.
00:01:17
Speaker
um i also have a law degree. And for over 25 years, I've worked both clinical practice and large scale system design and implementation of programs for children and families. My work has taken me to five continents, from refugee camps in Africa to conflict zones in the Middle East to child welfare agencies in the United States, as well as private practice in New York City, which is where I currently live.
00:01:44
Speaker
um I'm originally from Uruguay and a native Spanish speaker. um And across all of my work, Travis, you know one belief that has stayed constant, and then in many ways is my North Star, is that we're shaped not only by what happens to us, but by how we are met.
Understanding Nervous System Responses
00:02:01
Speaker
And so the way I track that is through our nervous system. What conditions allow a nervous system to stay present, hold complexity, and remain in relationship when things get hard? To remain anchored, as Deb Dana, amazing Deb Dana and puts it. And so that's, you know, ah a little bit about myself.
00:02:23
Speaker
um Polyvagal theory for me has given me that language um for what I've been watching and experiencing throughout my work with individuals, families, communities. um And it means, you know, what the body already knows, that safety is not an idea.
00:02:41
Speaker
It's a physiological state. And so that's a little bit about me. and And there's a way in terms of my own experience that's both at the individual, but also at the broader systemic level. And what I've learned is that, you know, a child racing against an unpredictable behavior, an unpredictable caregiver, and a population racing against an unpredictable state, they both run the same nervous system logic.
Cognitive and Somatic Effects of Technology
00:03:07
Speaker
And so that's that's sort of a a little bit of a nutshell in terms of who Stephen is, my way of engaging the world. Yeah, and and you know hearing that, where you've been, and this obviously a very brief overview of who you are and what you're doing and how you engage the world, you you you definitely write about these topics and in tech, politics, mental health care, and this overlap. so yeah And obviously the nervous system too is part of all this. So what do you see as ah as a thread that connects all of these? How do you see them interconnecting and overlapping?
00:03:38
Speaker
What I find that it overlaps, it all starts with the body, right? I think when I'm looking at, you know for example, I know we'll be talking today a little bit around um tech and the you know the impact that technology has. And there's a lot of talk right now about technology and the impact it has on the cognitive impact. But, you know, really what's missing is the somatic impact.
00:03:59
Speaker
the impact that it all has on our bodies. And, you know, it's about our nervous system and a nervous system that is constricted, that is restricted, um that is in shutdown, that free state, that is activated as a nervous system that cannot, that that that is not expansive, that cannot take in a body that cannot take in ah what's what's out there and engaging in the world and in healthy ways.
Generational Differences in Tech Experience
00:04:25
Speaker
um So a threat throughout it all for me is that the system lives in the body.
00:04:30
Speaker
We need to start in our bodies and we need to understand the impact that all this has on our bodies. And whether you're a child, whether you're a family, whether you're a community, whether you're a nation, i have found it really helpful to use a nervous system lens to see the impact that it has. And then also what that way forward is.
00:04:50
Speaker
this idea of tech and the nervous system, like when was it not just like a way of living or lifestyle with technology and nervous system, but when did it become like an issue for you that you saw, okay, this is actually something important I need to pay attention to actually um research explored right about within all the systems.
00:05:05
Speaker
Right. Well, I mean, I started feeling it in my own, my own experience of how it was, what was my relationship with technology, right? And most recently with AI and how is that impacting me in terms of my own body, how I'm in relationship with technology, how I'm relationship with others.
00:05:20
Speaker
And I see it in my therapy practice. I see the impact that it has on children. I think see the impact it has on adults. And it really, you know, a lot of my background is working with children, working with parents and families. And when I think about, you know, the current generations born into this world um in ways that are very different from your or my own childhood experience where we didn't have that. And so just seeing the impact that it's having at the individual level, at the family level and at the societal level um is something that's really, you know, both very present in my clinical practice. And then also when I think broader in terms of broader issues based in terms of my other work and policy and programs that I've been doing.
00:06:00
Speaker
And I definitely echo and relate to that because I grew up in a generation that didn't have a smartphone. It was that was later, actually after high school that I but think the iPhone first came out or the, you know, I grew up with ah we weren't allowed to have phones at school. We weren't allowed to have.
00:06:16
Speaker
you know, we, I grew up with a pager, right. That was what we had. um and so it's, it's, I'm seeing a difference too. And then you're, you're speaking to this, but I'm, I'm wondering, obviously the clinical practice, since we're from a generation and habit now, we're not digital natives is what I'm hearing, right? The next generation is their digital natives as part of, you know, um just part of their DNA, what they do and everything is around tech so much so.
00:06:43
Speaker
And I'm wondering what are like three or so most common like tech driven nervous system patterns that you see and and how do you see them showing up in the body with maybe the clients you work with or even yourself?
Tech-Driven Nervous System Patterns
00:06:54
Speaker
Yeah, no, absolutely. So three patterns that I see. And I think, you know, we did you know i and that we do need to understand, right, that once you capture a nervous system, which in some ways, this is what many of these platforms are doing, everything else follows. And so, you know, how do we capture a nervous system, right? So let's let's start there.
00:07:14
Speaker
like that question. Yeah, there's Three ways, right? Let's say you and me, Travis, we're figuring out, okay, we really want to capture nervous systems because what we know and what we know from polyvagal work, right? Once you capture nervous system, everything else follows, right?
00:07:27
Speaker
That's where it all starts and work with trauma and all of our work is a nervous system that's restricted, that's constricted, that's shut down, that's always an alert. It's a body that's small, that's constricted, that is limited, that is more easy to influence, to control. um And so how do we do that Let's think if we're like this nefarious tech platform people. trying so Here's here's what we'll do. and this is and and And this is what actually happens. First, we're going to be you know we're going to be bringing in unpredictability into your experience with technology. And that's what we call variable reinforcement, right? So there's this very well-known psychologist. His name was B.F. Skinner, right? yeah He did this thing with pigeons, right? So he what he would do with pigeons is like a pigeon would click on one pellet, i wrote exactly, and they would get food. And then, but, you know, and and what we know is that a fixed reward produces calm behavior. A variable reward reduces compulsion. So the pigeon would not know, wait, if I click here, I get the food. But then I click again, i don't get the food. So constantly what happens is...
00:08:32
Speaker
you know, yeah it's constantly unpredictable. So what that means is we keep checking. So I don't know if that next refresh holds the message that matters. So platforms engineer this into this, right?
00:08:43
Speaker
Notifications, the ding, ding, pull up to refresh. Actually the way you pull up to refresh, let me check, let me check. The algorithm is done in such a way that it that you will not like, so you you're waiting, you check, you check, no likes. Oh, and so that you get five likes. And then you don't get lights. You're always checking. You're always checking because it's it's made, we it's you know it's all designed to make the checking compulsive, um which makes it hard for the body to disengage.
00:09:14
Speaker
And so what does this mean for us is in a very nervous system activated sympathetic way, just like we know from polyvagal, it's a reflex that never ever solves. Low-grade scanning that never turns off. Eye starting, breath climbing, jaw tight. um And so we're always waiting for that next pain. So that's one element. If we're going to be developing this, Travis and you, and we'll copyright it. And this is what they do. It's variable reinforcement.
00:09:43
Speaker
So you always check in because you never, it's maybe the next time, maybe the next time, maybe the next time, just like those pigeons with BF Skinner so of many years ago when he was doing those experiments. Where are the pigeons?
00:09:56
Speaker
Yeah. I'm writing this down. I have a list going. So we're going to, I'm creating our agenda here as the nefarious leaders. leaders, variable reinforcement. The second one, and this is one that I've been, you know, I don't think we talked enough about it, is we want to make sure, Travis, that we're going to keep open loops.
00:10:12
Speaker
Open loops with everyone. We're never going to make sure nothing ever completes. We're going to make sure there's interruptions, context switch, every notification will open a loop that does not close. So our body will accumulate all this unfinished loops, open loops. We never finished. We never quite finished.
00:10:33
Speaker
Because as long as we're unfinished, we are, we're, we capture, we we're captive to, to the system. You know, a nervous system that can't complete is always, is always activated. I need to finish this. I need to finish this, but you can never finish it because it's the next story. There's a next, next TikTok video. And you're always left with this feeling of incompleteness. So you can do all of this and you can do so many things in, in, in, in before lunch,
00:11:02
Speaker
and you still feel like incomplete. And so we really wanna make sure, we wanna make sure that there's no completion. Because once a body experiences completion, then I can disengage from the system.
00:11:16
Speaker
Right. So that's really important for us. And the algorithm doesn't like that because, um you know again, the algorithm is driven based on you know watch time, right? More than anything else. And so if I disengage, watch time goes down, people are off the platform. Is that kind of where you're seeing that connection? yeah Exactly. It needs to be open loops. I don't believe like there's a whole conversation, you know we're distracted. We're not, this we're unfinished. The way I think about it, think about nervous system loops that never complete themselves. And if you multiply those, we have so many incomplete cycles. That you're always going to the, you know, but maybe this time I will be completed. And the system cannot. The moment we complete ourselves, that's the moment where we're more pressing in our bodies. And it's like, you know what?
00:12:00
Speaker
I don't need to be checking TikTok right now. Right. Right. And that's what the system, you know, as you said, you know, it's all about like keeping us connected. Very captured. So that's our that's our third one.
00:12:12
Speaker
you know yeah Now, the the the second one, sorry. The third one is, i mean, this is one where I like, and I think it's interesting, right? you know There's a whole conversation around therapy and AI and all that kind of stuff. But like this whole concept that it's this simulated connection without rec co-regulation.
00:12:30
Speaker
What do I mean by that? You know, real co-regulation, like you and i we're having a conversation, two nervous systems communicating with each other, right? Our face, our voice, you know, viewers, if they're seeing us on on on on the video, but if they're hearing our voices, our tone, there's a back and forth. There's all this micro adjustments in the ways that there's an intersubjectivity to our relationship right now. You're influencing me. I'm influencing you. One nervous system is in relationship with the other nervous system. This is how safety is built.
00:13:02
Speaker
Yes. Technology gives us the engagement cues without that two body feedback. ah where body gets activated, but never settled.
00:13:13
Speaker
We stay hungry, we keep scrolling. There's just enough signal to engage us, but not enough co-regulation to settle the system because we don't have another nervous system that's in relationship with us. And so I think that's the other element that that we that I find in my experience when it comes to technology is the simulated connection without co-regulation.
00:13:35
Speaker
So those are three three ways that we're goingnna we're going to take over take over the nervous systems, the world's, you know, people's nervous systems, which, you know, in many ways, this is what tech platforms do.
00:13:46
Speaker
Yeah. No, and definitely a great way. I mean, we'll just we'll just stop the show here and go do that. No, love that. It makes total sense. This unpredictability, right? that You're right. Going back to the old, like, psych 101 days and and right in grad school or even before grad school was that, that,
00:14:04
Speaker
Unpredictability creates, when you're right, more tension, right? It's even like the tying to attachment theory, right? The unpredictability, i.e. the disorganized attachment style, the chaotic, is more stressful the nervous system versus like even an even in an avoidant or an anxious because at least that's that's ah that's ah that's a predictable pattern of avoidance, right? And so that's why often writers and researchers have shown that the chaotic disorganized attachment is often more difficult I guess, you know, maybe arguably more dysregulating because of the unpredictability versus I just know, hey, my parents aren't going respond to me. I'm just going avoidant, right? I'm just going to just not open up and just close off versus like,
00:14:44
Speaker
Well, never know if mom's going to scream at me or not. She might be nice you one day, might bite my head off. So right this worked yesterday, but now this is doing not working. What happened? Right. So, so that makes sense to me, which then leads to this open loop again, which makes sense because if nothing completes, I can't fully rest.
00:15:02
Speaker
Right. Makes total sense. And if I'm not regulated, if I'm not, and you know, and this is, you know, the other part, and I've written about this, is how in many ways, you know, the attention economy, these platforms, they produce trauma-like physiology.
00:15:16
Speaker
right And I want to be very precise here. I'm not saying, I'm not claiming, you know i'm not saying scrolling equals trauma. What I'm saying is that the platforms are training trauma-like defensive likeysio physiology at scale.
Technology's Impact on Children
00:15:29
Speaker
The chronic scanning, the incomplete cycles, narrowed capacity.
00:15:33
Speaker
What does that do to our body? Our body constricts, our range shrinks, a tolerance for friction shrinks. We're in this place, which it's all optimization, which friction becomes something that we cannot be in relationship. And so this is similar to what we see in bodies that experience trauma.
00:15:51
Speaker
You know, my clinical practice, this is what I see with people who've experienced trauma. And so when we think about the tech platforms, right? feral What does variable reinforcement does? Exactly what he said. It keeps the orienting, reflexing, constant alert.
00:16:05
Speaker
are are you Are you liking me? Are you not liking me? Right? yeah Open loops, prevent completion. So I'm always so deeply tired and it's not for a lack of rest because I'm always active. I'm always on because danger is closed, because danger could be closed. I mean, if I don't know whether you're going to love me today, hate me today,
00:16:25
Speaker
um You know, the notifications, they trigger this sympathetic activation. How many times are we like, I'm waiting for a text message or something I'm worried about and and any any ping and the ping is activating. We don't even, and that's where noticing it starts in our body.
00:16:42
Speaker
Our body's immediately triggered by a ping, which because, wait, wait, did someone just call me? Did someone just, someone just sex me? And so this is, you know, what I, you know, you know,
00:16:53
Speaker
the way that I think about there's a physiological component, the trauma type ways impacts in our bodies that tech platforms profit from and profit from our own bodies in that way.
00:17:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And and in in that that ping, right? And I think of ah you know what Dr. Portis has said before mentioned that ah state drives a story or story follows state. So if I'm getting the ping,
00:17:21
Speaker
And I'm, I'm looking for a like or a response or something. And it's not that, and it's a pain of something else that I'm not looking for. Well, then what happens? What state do it what's the narrative I tell myself, you know, what's the emotion, the nervous system state that follows. Is it more sympathetic? Is it now doors will shut down because now I feel.
00:17:41
Speaker
no one likes me or whatever, you know, then we start to fill in the story with, ooh, my nervous system is already activated and I have a story that's being told within this particular state that I'm in. I'm assuming you see that too. Right, absolutely. And I think, and you're, it's so, and I think this is why polyvagal and nervous, starting through our nervous system in our bodies, because our nervousness, you know, we don't realize it, and we think it's in our head, but that, but you know, we all know, right? 80% of communication happens from the body to the brain, right? And there's a 20% that goes from the brain to the body. So the body's, the moment that body's triggered, the nervous system's triggered by that ping, that has already determined what my response will be. That has already determined in terms of how I will engage in that in in the next step. So I didn't get the like, oh, so then let me distract myself. Let me escape from myself. And you know what? It's not worth it. This is just, and then there's another pain. Oh, I got five likes. No, one maybe this is worth it. and And you're just constantly in this state of like activation um and and yeah.
00:18:37
Speaker
and alerts yeah yeah it's almost like that um i've i've heard this said you know ah this idea of like dopamine fatigue right or dopamine um you know uh this kind of dopamine addiction you know i'm sorry i'm putting this in quotes if you don't say quote dopamine addiction that there's this kind of high this peak right this ah stress this maybe even general cortisol that gets released because then my nervous system is activated um and if i'm used to having a certain amount of pings and I don't get it, well, then I start to have, again, I'm quoting this, withdraws of like,
00:19:11
Speaker
Now what what, does that mean? What happens my nervous system? and And I think, you know just going back, you know Travis, urine you know and we're but around the same generation and and we do not grow up with any of this, right? So what does it mean? like And this is what you know what concerns me and scares me is what does it mean for children who are born into this, right? Because you know we were, you know for those of us whose nervous systems were formed before the smartphone, this is deterioration, right? I see how impact it has. There was a before,
00:19:40
Speaker
We know what settled felt like, even if we had to work to get back there. But for those who are born into this moment in time, there is no before. Your baseline is a nervous system that is braced, constantly braced, never settled. um And when I think about like, you know, children raised chronically distracted adults, right? We all get and we the adults themselves, we find our escapes. We, you know, they're inheriting that dysregulation before they they inherit like a more sense of, of, of,
00:20:12
Speaker
of connectedness, of anchoredness. um And so that really so worries me in terms of the impact that it has on children um who are just constantly in this in this world that's all about the pain, all about the variable reinforcement, incomplete cycles.
00:20:29
Speaker
And let's remember, like children, their prefrontal cortex is not going to be developed until they're like 18 and older, right? So they're so they their sensory system, their nervous system is so accessible to manipulation, to capturing. And and that changes us, right? And that changes, especially children extremely at that age. You know, the beautiful thing about human beings is that we're One of our you know richness is that we're deeply adaptable, right? We're very much the same bodies from 20,000, 30,000, 100,000 years ago, and we're really different in how we engage and relate in the world.
00:21:06
Speaker
And that's one of the wonderful things about being a human being, but it also shows where it can be open itself to. Like you think about a child that's born into this world, and from now until you know they're gonna be 18 in the world worth platforms in a way, and how that impacts their body and how their body is, yeah.
00:21:24
Speaker
Yeah. Well then, yeah, you're right. And in this whole story that um there's there's a different baseline, different, and even for maybe non-digital narratives, the parents from our generation who might now be diving in a tank and might be more distracted. And now we're giving, you know, and obviously a classic example is when there's a dysregulated child giving them an iPad now.
00:21:45
Speaker
I'm here to judge. but This is not a judgment for the parent or the child. And I, you know, at the same time, if there's, I'm more looking at consistent patterns. What's more the consistent pattern.
00:21:56
Speaker
I'm not talking about a one-off, right but is it if consistently, if if I'm having emotional overwhelm as a kid and, going back to the prefrontal cortex to um you know under development, because that's just part of developmental, nothing wrong, it's just what happens.
00:22:09
Speaker
And I'm reminded like Dr. Dan Siegel and Dr. Tina Bryson's work of, in a way they're saying that you know that we're our children are borrowing our prefrontal cortex when they're little. Like they're borrowing that nervous system in a way. where We are their prefrontal cortex right to a degree. And so if I'm consistently giving them tech when they're in distress,
00:22:32
Speaker
Versus consistently helping them like, okay, let me give my PFC to you and my nervous system to help you build this developmental, you know, help the brain develop and the nervous system develop.
00:22:45
Speaker
i think I think it's pretty evident the differences that we tend to see between those two. yeah And again, I'm talking more about consistent behavioral patterns, not the one-off because I get it. We all have moments. We have moments when we're done, end of the day, and we just want to shut off.
00:22:59
Speaker
And kids are quite resilient, I think, and at least my understanding and having i have three children myself, that humans are quite resilient to one-offs. It's more about that what's consistent in their life. Right. Right. And then we're blamed, right? We're blamed because, you know, it's about willpower. Well, you know, detox, screen limits, discipline discipline. But, you know, here's the thing, you can't willpower your way out of a nervous system state.
00:23:23
Speaker
You know, when capacity is slow, willpower burns out and the pattern snaps back. And this is what we don't understand. This is not like, I'm just, no, it's, our body's already so constricted and restricted and our nervous system has come to like, you know, just like BF Skinner's pigeons. We're BF Skinner's pigeons and we're like, and it's, you know, it's not like a, you know, don't just overnight change. You know, it's not like you change that because it has to start within our bodies.
00:23:49
Speaker
And our bodies, as we know, they arere they're extremely adaptable and they develop patterns and those are hard to move away from them, right? To move away from those unhealthy patterns because they're familiar and they've gotten us to where we are today and our body does not like had big change. and and so So I think that that's something, you know, when we talk with others, there's those camps that talk, well, it's all about the willpower, right? Or then, you know, and I will say this, then this other camp, you know, it's about regulation, transparency, antitrust. and there's And again, like that's deeply, deeply important. But the other thing to know is that, you know, even good policy doesn't magically restore capacity in bodies.
00:24:28
Speaker
yeah And this is something, you know and especially in bodies shaped by years of overstimulation, because capacity has to be rebuilt.
Rebuilding Nervous System Capacity
00:24:36
Speaker
And this is where, again, like I think there's a way when I look at tech platforms, when I look at AI and what's going on, is that there's sort of this sense like, let's just, as long as we, let's let's keep the regulation away. let's take the more we buy time, more we can in some ways capture nervous systems and bodies. So this is what they know and this is what they want.
00:24:58
Speaker
And so it becomes harder then. So I think there's, you know, i I think there's an element of that that goes on in terms of when you look at what's what's going on. And and so, yeah. Yeah, I love that, that capacity, it has to be rebuilt.
00:25:13
Speaker
In a way, it has to be What are we practicing every day consistently with ourselves or with our children? and if I'm practicing distraction, quick fixes, dopamine hits, well then, and again, to your point, not overnight we change. It's usually a slow process of like building new habits that eventually become harder to shift because they're more behavioral. Going to back to be a Skinner, learn behavior creates more automatic. And like to tell my clients is that like, practice doesn't make perfect. No, practice makes automatic.
00:25:42
Speaker
right So what am I practicing? What do I turn to? What drills, quote unquote, am running when I'm in emotional distress? Or or how I coaching my child when they're in emotional distress? What practices am I showing them in order to deal with the distress?
00:25:57
Speaker
know What's the tool? like And so you have to repractice. Right. and And how do we do that within our bodies? And I think that next step, right. And I think what what I'm finding is that technology is coming closer and closer into our bodies, right?
AI's Integration with Human Autonomy
00:26:11
Speaker
Right now we have social medias out there. Now we have AI and we can talk a little bit about AI. And the current state of AI is an AI that's a language AI. It's the claws, of the chat GPTs, the Geminis. It's about you know, and but a but it's AI itself is coming closer to our bodies, right? It's going to soon enough we'll have to surround other Bergerac hearing piece that's going to be telling us what we have to tell to that person or you know, there's ways that that it's coming closer and closer to our bodies, um which also raises the stakes. And so I think that that's something that,
00:26:44
Speaker
we you know We just need to be much more aware of the impact that it has. And again, i' think there's nothing inherently wrong with technology. mean Technology is amazing. it it does There's so much that we can do with the fact that you and I have in this conversation right now. right Where you're in Southern California, I'm here in the Northeast, there's snow with me, there's sun with you. And we're having this really engaging, connecting conversation. right And then how this will be shared in a podcast, people will watch a video.
00:27:11
Speaker
this is the This is the amazing thing about a human being. And my emotion, my feeling, I can share it with you. And you can feel it thousands of miles away. yeah And that's the resonance. And that is this resonance that happens with human beings. And and that's so that's the beauty of life. It's that resonance, the way we resonate with each other, when we're relationship with each other.
00:27:31
Speaker
um And so that's where, you know, I really have come to an own technology plays a really important role in facilitating that, right? In allowing us to have to, to open up space, to open up space for connection, for relationship, to expand ourselves and our bodies. So even though we're physically apart from each other, our nervous systems are right now communicating with each other, and Travis. and and and And potentially with the listeners in ways that it resonates what we're discussing.
00:27:57
Speaker
And that's very moving to me. yeah and and yeah so and yeah and i and i completely agree. ah And goes to your point and that technology can simulate being connected but without co-regulation. And the intervening variable, right, is our obviously our nervous system that Dr. Porter just talks about. And that's because it's nervous system to nervous system, you and me.
00:28:20
Speaker
And then as people watch this or listen, they're also picking up on those cues, whether it's porosity of voice, it's our tone, or if they're actually watching visually, they're seeing our facial expressions or interactions. Because that's the difference between, and it will, I guess I'll ask you, the difference though between what we're doing um And I do agree, good use of technology is making something happen that we couldn't do in person because we live across the United States. So obviously this is a good use of tech. And I have found personally, social media has actually increased my social connections because I've made authentic relationships with people that I probably would never have met because they're just in a different state and country. And now I can have this amazing...
00:29:02
Speaker
co-regulatory dialogue, but it's person to person with this medium that we're using, which is very good, but it's it's like intentional. um So I wanted to say that versus tech, like you said, simulating connection without co-regulation. And so since you mentioned AI, to pivot there for a moment, I guess from your perspective, generally speaking,
00:29:25
Speaker
ah how are we seeing AI actually helping and even maybe facilitating healing? and And where is it maybe quietly or insidiously kind of blocking it?
00:29:37
Speaker
Right, right. no thank Yeah, absolutely. And so I think, you know, when I think about AI, recently wrote an essay about this and and sort of like, there's sort of a simple distinction I use, scaffolding versus substitution.
00:29:52
Speaker
What do I mean by scaffolding? Where can AI help us as they relate? Scaffolding buys time when you're flooded. It protects the boundary. It expands choice. Let me give you a concrete example. Your ex sends a message, texts you a message. It's designed to flood you with shame.
00:30:09
Speaker
They know deeply that nervous system knows how to get to your nervous system when you very quickly, then suddenly you're your body braces, that old form pattern fires up. And in that moment, and this is the middle of your workday, and it's a text message that needs to be answered because it's about who's what's the pickup for tomorrow for the kids. And suddenly, let's talk about this, the ping shows up. And I have, you know, when therapy and my clients and colleagues, there's a certain ping that they have for the Right.
00:30:36
Speaker
When that immediately they on what we work about, what will it, first of all, how do you like not invite that ping, right? How do you set a boundary with that ping so you can control that? But then in the middle of the day, you get that ping and immediately you flood it and you and you're in the middle of a work day and you're about to have a meeting in five minutes.
00:30:54
Speaker
So here's where I can help you. Chat, GPT, Claw, Gemini, your choice. Draft, you know, write and a message that basically says, you know, very clearly, I can't deal with this guy. I just want to be very clear. Child pickup is Tuesday or Thursday. You know, write it in a way that I'm not sharing anything about myself.
00:31:15
Speaker
There you go. Chat, GPT. Okay. And you press send. Child pickup is Tuesday or Thursday. Let me know by noon. You send it. That's a way where you are basically not allowing that nervous system, the the nervous system that just came into you from your ex, that invasion that came into your body in the middle working, you're just bounding it. Not here, not now, not with you.
00:31:42
Speaker
Now the work is, chat, I needed to send that message. I just did a few minutes. it's I send that text message, I move on. The key here is that whatever is shared in within me,
00:31:55
Speaker
that and I work through that in a space, time, and person of my choosing, whether it's a therapist, a friend. um It's really, that's where this, it's, you know, if I would just allow it to just reply, but I don't work through the way that it impacted my body, right? And so this is where scaffolding, this is where I have found AI can actually be extremely useful as a scaffolding tool.
00:32:18
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. I love that term scaffolding because I use the same thing. I tell people too, it's like if it's is if your primary use of dealing with problems, you're not actually dealing problems. It's just in another another way. you're just It's a more nicer, more etiquette way of dealing with a problem versus going in and drinking a six pack.
00:32:37
Speaker
right? And essentially just becomes another form of, to use this term loosely, but addiction, right? A term of like actually avoidant behavior. it just sounds nicer and you're not getting drunk or you know, ah you know, using a drug or numbing out on TV. Yeah.
00:32:49
Speaker
Because you, and I think it's an important point, you need to come back to what is the issue. right And I do, I've actually had clients think that example is like, hey, I'm not available, hey, put this in.
00:33:00
Speaker
You can even vent to chat GPT, get everything out, and then say, hey, clean up all the language, make it like non-emotional, just clear to the point. And so they still even get a little bit more of that out. And then let's actually deal with the pain point later in session. Let's get to the deeper root of what's coming up for you. But that's the whole point, you come back to the problem versus I'm just using as an avoidant tool Cause I could also, that that's not really scaffolding then. Cause then you're just, maybe it's a substitution, which is. no' Right. When what substitution is, is space. And this is where, you know, where it's, it's automating the avoidance of, of dealing with ourselves, of becoming. yeah And that's what goes back to your story about avoidance. And I think the.
00:33:37
Speaker
In some ways, the alcohol example used is a really good one because I find a connection there. no I think, what does alcohol do? Alcohol does, you know or you're a teenager and you're trying to figure things out and you want to talk to this one person or you drink and then that all of a sudden, then that becomes the only way you can be in relationship with someone. And you always need the alcohol to be in relationship to deal with your discomfort. And then now you're 50 years old and that's what you've had all your life and that's all you know, right? Same with you know when we think about You know, what if if AI becomes the only way I can be in connection or relationship? I can not only talk or work through my own stuff is you know I'm handing my difficult self to AI.
00:34:17
Speaker
You know, this polished version, and right? There's a sense of like, there's only the polished version, you know, that's the good part, right? This unpolished version is bad, not good. You know, and I would, but then what happens? I wrote this, you know, I always need to be wearing the AI costume.
00:34:33
Speaker
Because I'm not growing. I'm not developing. I'm not growing in the ways that I can experience what it is like to experience discomfort, to experience rejection, to experience awkwardness. That's how we grow. um and And knowing that we didn't cease to exist yeah um in in that moment, in that experience. And that's very much, you know, brings me back to Melanie Klein and splitting and, and you know, a sense of like, living within within ambivalence, and'm understanding that there's good and bad within all of us and and not the sense of like, there's just the bad needs to be deleted and erased, which is in um many ways what AI can create.
00:35:09
Speaker
Yeah, no, and and i that's a huge distinction for all of us, that scaffolding versus substitution, because AI, and going back to being polished, this I have to always now present this perfectly polished robot version of me versus just, you know, kind of the more raw, unedited version, which is more...
00:35:30
Speaker
Well, it's more human versus more robot, right? I mean, ai' is great. It could definitely make you sound much more eloquent. And I think there's a use to it, to your point. Again, scaffolding versus, I mean, this is the only way. i don't know how to deal with a relationship unless I go to my, it's like, it'd be funny if like, if I'm in a conflict, I've seen a meme on this is like, well, hold on a second. Let let me type.
00:35:49
Speaker
And they don't talk to each other. They just like type first and then they, they read the responses back and they just go back and forth. i thought that was so brilliant because then that's the over-reliance of the substitution versus it becomes a tool in which to help facilitate maybe an outlet or a way to think or to get some feedback to use, but then we're still dealing with the stress and that's important. It's maybe to even use a gym example, right? It's like, well, you know, I can't think my way to getting any stronger, right? I can't just like,
00:36:21
Speaker
put something in and just, you know, you think about using the, you know, a weight bench and think a I'm gonna build muscle. No, I have to actually put my body into a stressed state. It's the same thing with sports. Like I can't just create an AI generated version of me and go out there and play. I have to actually go out there on the field and play basketball or football, whatever it is, soccer, and actually get stressed, get dirty, make mistakes, but then we get better.
00:36:42
Speaker
Same thing in relationships that we actually need be able handle stress. And I almost, and you tell me if this fits, but I feel like the more we rely AI or, you know, same thing is that we actually shrink our capacity to handle stress. And then that creates almost like a more need or more reliance on this and it creates this ever shrinking feedback loop of like, well now my stress capacity, but I can't even handle you know a look because that's overwhelming versus before maybe we can handle them more. It's like, it it creates like a shrinking on, you know we can't get back from it.
00:37:13
Speaker
Right. You know, it reminds me of, you know you know i i got i did not grow up in the States, but I'm familiar with a Twilight Zone. And there's this episode from the Twilight Zone that was about like this water, like this company would give you free water and you drink water and suddenly it would make you younger. It would make you, ah you know and I'm sure, like I don't know the movie, The Substance, I haven't seen it, but like you know suddenly it would do this to you, this water would do it. And it was free, here you go, have it for free.
00:37:38
Speaker
But then you just need it and need And then before, you know what, this you know in this Twilight Zone episode, the person just so dependent that they give everything up for this water because that's actually, you can't even go back to your baseline where you were before.
00:37:51
Speaker
um And so I do think that there's something about AI. And again, this really worries me for children, for young people nowadays, because you and I, we had to grow through this. You know, we didn't have a a machine next to us. And this, the thing about AI, you know, it's always been there. Substitution's always, we've always tried. There's always ways that we've tried in in in history to just not you know have someone else deal with our awkwardness or like try to outsource it. and you know But the difference here is that you suddenly have something that's right there next to you. It's this phone that's immediately available. And and it's so quick and so fast with speed. And and and then you just develop this connection. Your but this nervous system, speed is good.
00:38:34
Speaker
Slow is bad. yeah um and And so I do think when I think about teenagers, right? Like what what is it like a teenager who runs every hard message through AI?
00:38:45
Speaker
They're never going to be learned. A teenager can may never learn that their unpolished truth can be survived, right? When a child who can't sit with the discomfort of an unfinished thought, doesn't build the that that you know the the capacity to hold complexity. And so I do think that, I think that what I'm experiencing with AI and when I see with young people, with teenagers, is that it just becomes, we're so, it's a way to not grow.
00:39:13
Speaker
It's a way to to outsource. And it comes from a space of neediness. It's a come from a substitution space that, that actually constricts further constricts and restricts us. Right. The question would always be, does it expand you?
00:39:26
Speaker
Does AI, does using AI, right? I, you know, i need spend it's a I can have conversations with AI about like, hey, I'm going to learn about this philosopher. Tell me back and forth. Let's go back and forth. Or it can be like, I just got this really difficult message. I need to i don't want to deal with this. Just give me the three sentence. But i'm still but I will work through that stuff with but with with with myself.
00:39:49
Speaker
and And so I think that that's something that I'm finding. and And AI is getting closer and closer to the body, right? Now it's the only language, right? Now they talk AI, you know, you can have conversations, on voice conversations. Soon enough, you'll have ear pieces. um And before you know it, we'll have some of those things implanted on our brains.
00:40:06
Speaker
rehearse Yeah. and And this all links back to kind of so far the beginning even of our conversation is how do we capture the nervous system, right? What's what's the way in which we, as tech companies, as technology,
00:40:20
Speaker
you know, and I guess you you would say the alcohol company or whatever, you know, whatever company you believe in, like, what are those, how do we capture the nervous system? And it's nervous system first. And once we get the nervous system hooked, it's harder and harder to engage the stress itself, like actually scaffold appropriately to build muscle, so to speak, right?
Nervous System-First Approach to Tech Use
00:40:40
Speaker
Muscle, build competency, build a sense of confidence in ourself and our capacity to share.
00:40:49
Speaker
But always goes back to that, again, nervous system first that you said at the beginning that, hey, everything think links the nervous system from that lens, from everything we do. um And so with that lens, I'm wondering, you know, what are some, a couple, you know, nervous system first rules that you would kind of put in around tech where you maybe don't have to delete everything and completely go off grid?
00:41:15
Speaker
Right. Yeah, no. And then before that, like, and one thing to add that makes it even more challenging, I think this goes back to like bringing that from the individual to the community, to the system is that if that's how we're now all in relationship with, right. If I have young people i I'm in Jackie with and and their friends use Instagram and the parents are like, we don't want, but like, if that's the, if that's the way that now you communicate, right. And so I think that there's something about like, and then there's, ne and then what happens, you know, it's, it's really, you know, it's, there's a little bit about this optimization and this smoothness. Let's get rid of any friction. And so as a society, we're developing, you see this, you know, you see, there was an ad, one of those Superbowl ads, which showed this robots and they're so smooth. Everything's smooth with skin is smooth. Uh, A reader from one of my essays I recently wrote about, you know, about AI described it. She she felt it connected to her experience about Botox. The sense of like Botox is all about erasing, you know, smoothness. And so I think that when we become a society, that's what we're told that's attractive. That's what we told. Friction is something that's bad. It's all about speed.
00:42:25
Speaker
um It's really hard to just disengage from that space. And and so so I think what, you know, i I think like so... What do we do, right? How can we be in relationship recognizing that technology is part of our day our our lives? yeah um i find that one of the things that, again, it's the question I would ask is, am I using this to expand myself?
00:42:48
Speaker
Am I using this as scaffolding to support me with what I need to do now? Am I using this to not deal with myself? why I'm ah using it to basically not have to deal with this hard feeling and i'm not going to work through that hard feeling. Right. Right. and And so and I think that what I have found is that the more that our moment is the more of our body is is available and online, if we want to use tech words,
00:43:15
Speaker
The more present we are in relationship with technology and how we're using it, this technology in some ways has a <unk>s sort of a disembodied, disassociative role. It's going back to the trauma analogy. It wants us removed. It wants our bodies in some ways split from from our heads in a way. um because that's an easier way in terms of capturing and ca controlling the nervous systems. And so I think the the more we go into space and and and more pressing in our bodies, more aware, you know, like right now, even as I'm talking to you, I'm sensing, you know, my legs, my legs on the floor, right? How is that experience, right? My back against the chair.
00:43:53
Speaker
um How is it when I talk slower? a Okay. There's more presence within my body right now. How is it when I press my hands against each other, the release?
00:44:08
Speaker
Um, and then, okay, now let me check email. Yeah. And the moment I'm starting to experience constriction, the moment I'm starting to experience the chest lifting up, the anxiety, notice the impulse.
00:44:23
Speaker
That's what we do is in therapy and we do this. And I, when I talk about technology, just notice the impulse to want to check the phone, check the phone. Mm-hmm. Just even if you then go and check your phone, it's going to still be a different experience because you're interrupting it.
00:44:38
Speaker
You're interrupting the impulse. yeah Um, and so I think that that's, that's yeah. Some of the, what we can do and in terms of as we're in relationship with. And even seeing that right now, I mean, I felt the difference from even going slower and pressing. Right. It was more of, to to put in polyvagal terms, more ventral energy.
00:44:57
Speaker
Right. It's like noticing the sympathetic, that activation. And sometimes I think we can overthink of a practice. Right. I got to go sit for an hour and meditate. you know Sometimes that's the case, but sometimes it's as simple as just slowing down. Like you said, the the hands, sitting up, looking around, and then going into something. And you're breaking that cycle, and it's so important. And those you do that enough repeatedly.
00:45:22
Speaker
You do that throughout the day. Now you're getting to create a new neural pathway, a new automatic nervous system response to actually train it to say, actually, let me pause for us before. Let me let let me breathe before. Let me you know shift states before.
00:45:38
Speaker
But I felt it and I feel it now. And it's such a human, like, I think we're, know, we're born, right? It's all about resonance. We regulate ourselves through the others and your subjectivity. such an innate human way of being. The moment we come into this world, that's how we're relationship. It's our nervous systems. um And, and I think there's there's something really beautiful about that. And also really hopeful, um you know, it reminds me of, you know, I'm,
00:46:06
Speaker
you know Hannah Arendt is someone I read a lot and and she always described with every birth there's ah hope. Every birth is opportunity, every birth is hope. And and so I'm actually, um you know, i I do, there's a part of me that feels actually optimistic. And I know with, you know, it's not all gloom and doom and, you know, And I think in the more we engage and we understand what this is about, how we're in relationship with our bodies, how we learn to listen and to notice the impulse to check the phone, notice the impulse. Or what would it be like to actually get rid of notifications?
00:46:40
Speaker
Right? Play with getting rid of notifications. choosing time and space and place where I'm going to be in relationship with tech. You know, like I'm going to be doing the tech talk or the Instagram, but you know what? It's going be for 30 minutes and that's it. And notice when I'm coming into that relationship, how can it come come as embodied as possible and be aware that when I leave that moment, I'm going to leave dissatisfied. i'm going to leave incomplete. I'm going to leave unfulfilled and that's okay.
00:47:09
Speaker
And just then take time, time and space. Walk for five minutes. Move my body. Yeah. Even in the middle of like, I'm just, I'm going move around. it just Yeah.
00:47:22
Speaker
Yeah.
Family Practices for Healthy Tech Use
00:47:23
Speaker
What I'm hearing is the intention is creating space on your your timetable, right? When you choose to engage it rather than kind of succumbing to this constant pull. That's what I'm hearing.
00:47:35
Speaker
And and if if if you could wave a magic wand, I always love asking this question. If you can wave a magic wand and change one thing overnight within tech in the nervous system, what's that one thing you would change? Oh my goodness.
00:47:47
Speaker
The one thing that I would change, in fact, and you know, in terms of within the tech industry or with ourselves? Yeah. over Tech or within ourselves as it relates to tech, maybe we put it that way for based on our conversation today. And now there might be 20 things, but what's one thing that comes to mind that you would want to change if you could wave your wand and it was better or is more effective?
00:48:10
Speaker
I think if we could just be, I think there needs to be, there just needs to be much more open, honest conversation about what what is happening and what how is this taking place. um And and i think that,
00:48:26
Speaker
You know, when it comes to it, I think, you know, of course it can envision the time when there's, you know, no technology, like five hours of no technology. What would it be like in the world in those five hours of no technology, right? And realize that's a difficult thing, but like, what would it be like if we actually experienced, you know, what it is like to like five hours experience No technology day.
00:48:50
Speaker
no No technology works. no And you just come into each other. you come into And many times, you know, we we have to do this. I think when I work with parents, right? It's on us to create those boundaries and that space for our children and for our families. I do think if there's one thing I could say for a family, it's like just, and that's something that's us here within our control.
00:49:11
Speaker
yeah yeah Play with that and notice and be okay. It's hard. It's really hard for us as adults. I really want to be checking my email. And boredom you put in is something that children nowadays are not experiencing enough of. And we become scared of boredom. We could become scared of like slowness and like...
00:49:28
Speaker
you know, staying with hard feelings and friction. So my hope maybe like to bring in it down, I would hope that and within every family where available, where possible, where you just take some of the time as a family, you make a commitment, everyone, not just the children, but the parents, you know, we're just going spend, let's make it one hour.
00:49:46
Speaker
one hour a day and it's going to be bored and we don't even need to have clients. We're just going to be bored with each other. Yeah. What is that experience to be bored with ourselves, bored with each other? Yeah.
00:49:57
Speaker
I love that so much. And I, if I'm honest, I do practice that with my family. I do. We, we, we use tech very intentionally and, Because I think boredom is, a we need to be bored. It creates creativity. And so it's it's fun when you see your kids get past that and they actually start to create, generate things. I mean, that's what i do as a kid all the time. Never had tech. I was always creating things. um but and that's And the other thing I would say is like in those moments, right don't go to tech for comfort.
00:50:25
Speaker
don't go to tech for comfort In the sense of like, don't go to tech. Well, I'm just really stressed. Let me just check my email. Let me check this. Let me spend YouTube. like that I understand that that's what you're doing, but that's not what's going to provide you an anchoredness. That's not going to what's going to... Your nervous system into a space of you know um a connection and and and and and and settledness. That's not what's going to happen. And so I think what I would encourage you, if you're if that's what you're looking for, if you're so you're activated and you're stressed and you just want...
00:50:58
Speaker
Don't go to tech. Don't go to tech. Take a walk. Stay with yourself. Right. right Read one page of a book. That's it. yeah Read one page of a book. Yeah.
00:51:09
Speaker
Yeah. All those things. All those things. Because then if you don't, then that that tech becomes becomes another substance like anything else, essentially. Right.
00:51:20
Speaker
And the hardness is that then we left. We're just feeling a bit more tired. More disconnected. Yeah. More disconnected. More disassociated. And I think this is not, it's it's a completion death.
00:51:32
Speaker
This is the way I describe it. Completion debt. I love that. in where we just we wait because we if we we we We came and even more incomplete. and But but we need to go back because me it's never going that it's we're not gonna we're not gonna get completion from tech Tech can do a lot of things.
00:51:52
Speaker
It can expand us. It can make mean that Travis and Stephen are connecting, having this conversation. But completion is something that we only find that in our bodies and we find that in relationship with others.
00:52:04
Speaker
yeah and and And it's about resonance because ultimately it's all about you know the the resonance and the ways our nervous systems are relationship with each other. Yeah, tell absolutely. you know and And with that said, because I'm sure people are curious to to want to know more about this. I know I am. If if if people are curious, because are, where should they start with your writing? Where can they find your work and...
00:52:27
Speaker
So I'm in Substack, so I write essays. And so there's a lot of what we talked about. It's all in essays that I've written. So I would encourage anyone who's interested um to go on Substack. also have a website. I'm sure you'll include them in the notes.
00:52:39
Speaker
But really, am and I just, you know, for me, again, it's the encounter. um And so just being in relationship with people and people reaching out, and I'd be happy to share. You know, there's so much there in terms of being in relationship with each other where there's so much growth and expansion and just like the conversation that that we're having that we've had today.
00:52:59
Speaker
Yeah. and and And everyone listening and watching, the links Stephen's website, Substack, it'll all be in the description. So click on it to go check it out. And Stephen, this has been such an awesome conversation and and i in in an era that is, it's an important conversation because it's all around us. And Whether we're parents or not, it doesn't matter. Like it it affects all of us when we live in a world that's using it more. And I think we gotta be really clear on this, especially as you know human beings, nervous systems first, how to best and healthily engage. So it's a conversation that
00:53:35
Speaker
is important that we have, and I'm so glad you're having it. And so thank you for your insight, your expertise, your thoughts, and also how to take over the world if we want you know to do so. So please thank you. it's Thank you, Charmels. Thank you.
00:53:50
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Wired For Connection, a polyvagal podcast. This show is produced by the Polyvagal Institute, an international nonprofit organization dedicated to creating a safer and more connected world. PVI provides education, resources, and community to those interested in learning more about polyvagal theory and applying polyvagal principles in personal and professional contexts. To learn more about Polyvagal Theory and other offerings, visit us at polyvagal.org where you can join our online community space and access our free learning library.
00:54:26
Speaker
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00:54:39
Speaker
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