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Why Feeling Safe Is The Key To A Good Life with Seth Porges
1.5k Plays12 days ago
In this episode of Wired for Connection, I sit down with Seth Porges, coauthor of “Our Polyvagal World” and documentary filmmaker behind “Class Action Park” (HBO Max) and “How to Rob a Bank” (Netflix). We explore how polyvagal theory is not just a neuroscience model, but a worldview that explains why our nervous systems feel so overloaded in an age of social media, 24/7 news and constant outrage.
Seth breaks down what polyvagal theory actually means in simple language: why feeling safe is crucial to a good life, how our nervous system reads cues of safety and threat, and how anger and division are often just dysregulated states, not “bad people.” We talk about the autonomic echo chamber, how algorithms are literally trained on your stress response, and why doomscrolling keeps you stuck in fight or flight.
We also go inside his work as a documentary filmmaker. Seth shares how he builds safety and trust on set, how he protects participants from exploitation, and why real emotion on camera is a powerful form of co regulation. We talk about creative work and nervous system health, why fun and play are regulation, and why therapists, coaches and parents must protect their own capacity to feel safe if they want to offer safety to others.
If you are a therapist, coach, creative or anyone who feels fried by the modern world, this conversation will help you see your anger, anxiety and exhaustion through a polyvagal lens and give you practical ways to protect your nervous system and the people you care about.
You’ll learn about:
• Polyvagal theory in plain English
• The autonomic echo chamber and media
• How social media and news exploit your threat response
• Co regulation, safety and empathy in an angry culture
• How documentary storytelling can be trauma informed
• Why fun, play and connection are regulation, not luxuries
• Nervous system self care for therapists, coaches and creatives
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WEB: www.polyvagalinstitute.org
Instagram: @polyvagalinstitute
LinkedIn: polyvagal-institute
Email: community@polyvagal.org
CONNECT WITH Travis Goodman:
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Transcript
Introduction to Polyvagal Theory
00:00:00
Speaker
I think what polyvagal theory forces us to do is recognize that when people act ways that we don't agree with, we don't like, it's because of you know, it's it's probably driven by their nervous system. It's probably driven by the fact that they're in a state of fear, i said a state of threat.
00:00:14
Speaker
And that when we're in a state of fear and state threat, all the things that that we look for that help make life great become largely inaccessible to us or much harder to obtain. Welcome back to a Wired for Connection, a polyvagal podcast, where we talk about how your nervous system shapes how you feel, relate, and heal.
Guest Introduction: Seth Porges
00:00:31
Speaker
I'm your host. My name is Travis Goodman. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and a mind-body coach. And today I'm joined by Seth Porges. Seth is an author and documentary filmmaker known for telling sharp human stories that are easy to track and hard to forget.
00:00:47
Speaker
You might know his work from Class Action Park on HBO Max or How to Rob a Bank on Netflix.
Making Polyvagal Theory Accessible
00:00:54
Speaker
He is also the son of Dr. Stephen Porges, the developer of Polyvagal Theory, and he has become a clear voice in translating these ideas into everyday language.
00:01:03
Speaker
In this conversation, we'll break down Polyvagal Theory in plain terms, talk about why no nervous system state is bad, and explore what it looks like to work with your state shifts in real life.
00:01:15
Speaker
Seth, so I'm wondering, how did you end up becoming an author and a documentary filmmaker? And i what shaped your voice as a storyteller? ah Well, it's great to be here, first of all. This is a lot of fun. Okay, so the whole author thing came, and I wrote the book, Our Polyvagal World, How Safety and Trauma Changes. us I wrote it with Dr. Porges, who, of course, was the originator of polyvagal theory. He's also, i guess, kind of the originator of me. He's my my dad. And, um you know, I kind of grew up steeped in this material,
00:01:44
Speaker
And I realized several years ago that um this was really important stuff that really had the possibility of helping people. But it was also information that wasn't really out there in a way that was really understandable to people. um A lot of the writing on it, even the writing, I mean, especially the writing for my dad was very opaque, very academic, very clinical.
00:02:06
Speaker
Very difficult for the average person who I felt could benefit from this information to actually understand.
Filmmaking Approach and Storytelling
00:02:12
Speaker
As a result, I just kind of saw some like gatekeeping occurring with information, other people packaging it up and selling it, oftentimes getting it wrong or just like trying to sell their supplements or their products or whatever it is. And I was like, there has to be a better way of just kind of getting this information out there. And so um that was sort of the the origin of the book. um Prior to writing the book, though, I had started giving talks about polyvagal theory. And one of the talks um kind of went like, I guess, low low scale viral. You know, got like a half million views on YouTube. And I started just getting anecdotal evidence from people.
00:02:47
Speaker
lot of like clinicians and therapists I was speaking to that they were passing it around to their patients as a way of really allowing them to understand polyvagal theory in kind of basic English terms. um And I kind of realized that, all right, so with that talk, I sort of had the vocabulary and the framework to translate polyvagal theory into something that would make sense to people. Let's just turn this into a book. um And so i you know, approached my dad with the idea and he was instantly on board and we just did it, you know, very, very quickly, actually.
00:03:17
Speaker
Well, and and that's about the book, but I'm wondering about your your general about being a filmmaker and documentary. Like, is that something that came out of understanding polyviral theater as a kid? Or was that something like a dream? Was that just your expression? Yeah, I was um i was a journalist um before. And i made I make documentary movies. um I made the movies Class Action Park, which is on HBO Max. I made a movie called How to Rob a Bank, which is on Netflix. And I have a new movie, which um is not yet out yet, called SantaCon.
00:03:47
Speaker
about SantaCon. And um I kind of view my documentary filmmaking as an extension of my work as a journalist. You know, to me, it's long form journalism. It's it's a way of taking a true story and just really spending a lot of time dialing into it, getting to know the people and and telling the story. and um And while like, you know, on the surface, it is not the same as the work I do in the polyvagal theory.
Media Responsibility and Impact on Audiences
00:04:11
Speaker
it's It's very, very, very linked in my head. um i kind of think oh it's not just about like when you're making a documentary movie, paying attention to how it might affect people, of course, paying attention to trauma that people might have experienced, who you're featuring your movies, of course. But more than that, i kind of pay attention to what I put out into the world and the effect it has. You know, one of the things I, so when I think about polyvagal theory, I don't just think of it as this
00:04:41
Speaker
model for the nervous system or this model for how our bodies and brains respond to the world around us and how feeling safe or feeling threatened changes our bodies. I view polyvagal theory honestly as as a worldview, as a way of seeing and making sense of and understanding the world. and how and the term i use is in the autonomic echo chamber we live in an autonomic echo chamber both on a micro level and a macro level the reality we exist within the media we consume the people we're around the conversations we have these shape our reality they shape our nervous system
00:05:16
Speaker
ah Through polyvagal theory, I think we understand how when we live in a reality that fosters feelings of safety, um our lives are so much different than when we live in a reality that fosters feelings of anger and hatred and threats and what this does to us on a day-to-day basis and understanding that the realities we live in are constructed differently.
00:05:37
Speaker
so many different layers from the conversations we have, the media we consume, the social media we consume, all these things. And as somebody who produces media, I think a lot about what am I putting into this echo chamber? What feelings is it going to cause for the people? What are they going to take away from that?
00:05:53
Speaker
And then what are they going to do when they continue to reverberate those feelings onto other people? um So it's hard to not think about those things, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think what I'm hearing is just this this this worldview, right? Going back to what you said, this polyviral theory is more of a worldview, how you see how we how things interact into play interpersonally and relationally across really any medium from from filmmaking to authorship to just physical interactions and thinking through the ripple effect of what that might have. And you know it sounds like the pillar of the theory, right? That this piece of co-regulation and how that could be used for for the betterment and our nervous systems could also activate in a way that is, Yeah. I mean, style fear state when we're around like angry, threatened people, you know, then then the nervous system is really good at, you know, figuring it. Well, it's not really good. It kind of messed up a lot, but you know, one of the chief roles of the nervous system is to determine how safe or threatened we are at any given moment. one of the chief indicators of that is how safe or threatened are the people around us coming off us. So when you're around people who
00:07:02
Speaker
feel threatened or they're very angry or upset well that's very contagious and likewise when you're around people who come off as very safe oh they can regulate us they can co-regulate us they can do all of these sorts of things and this exists on a societal level right like if if you're constantly like watching the news or listening to podcasts and you're just being inundated with images and feelings of of threat, that becomes inescapable and then you pass that on to other people is the truth.
00:07:30
Speaker
and um And I think, you know as somebody who produces media, I think about, how can I not do that? you know I do think about that quite a bit. I would way rather the the the the feelings people come away from you know, being the feelings I think are really important, which is that we are interconnected, that we rely on each other and that we're at our best when we feel safe and we're capable making other people feel safe.
00:07:55
Speaker
Yeah. and And having you talk about the work that you do, where my curiosity is going is because you're you're talking about the, um the end result of what you put out there in the ripple effect.
00:08:12
Speaker
yeah And I think that's very intentional I'm hearing is really thinking, like you said, you think about that a lot, you're thinking, you're processing what might people take away, the feelings we put out there. What I'm also curious about is,
00:08:25
Speaker
as someone who's making a film, how how does it show up like on set? how does it like How does it show up as you're filming, as you're working with the other, the team? Does that make sense? That's kind of what i'm thinking. like How does it play out in the, like not the ripple, but in the moment? Yeah, I mean, I make documentaries, which means I make movies with real people. And oftentimes that involves getting people to tell their stories. People who may have resisted you know telling their story in the past for whatever reason.
00:08:50
Speaker
and yeah um And I think about that a lot when you know you approach somebody and you ask them to share their story. If it's a story worth telling, there's a good chance that I'm not the first person who's thought this is a story worth telling. Somebody else has knocked on their door and asked them to talk.
00:09:02
Speaker
And they probably said no. And I always try to go in thinking, why is this person said no? what and And I think it oftentimes comes down to this feeling that um They're afraid and rightfully so. like if you tell your story to a Netflix crew, everybody in the world could see you. What if you don't look right on camera that day? What if you come off in
Documentary Filmmaking and Empathy
00:09:23
Speaker
a way you don't like? What if you're edited poorly? What if but if, what if, what if, what if, right? There's so many things that can go wrong. And i think a big part about being a documentary filmmaker, I mean, the biggest part is earning the trust of people and getting them to speak.
00:09:38
Speaker
And that is all about understanding you know, what makes people feel safe and making sure that people feel safe through the entire process. And i think that, you know, when i when I talk to people who do end up, say, speaking in a movie of mine, oftentimes, you you develop a pretty close relationship with them. It's part of the trust building process. And they'll share with me the emails they might have gone from other producers asked them to participate in documentaries i'm just sort of shocked at how like blunt cold and inhuman it is um and i think that's just the wrong way you really have to go in understanding that people are probably afraid um you try to try to predict the reasons they're afraid but you also go with the humbleness you can't really know fully all the things you might be afraid of and you just kind of have to ask them and listen
00:10:23
Speaker
And then when you're doing making the movie itself and you're doing the interview, I mean, that is this the interview process. When you sit down with somebody for many, many hours, oftentimes looking them in the eyes while they're on camera is a really, really intense experience. It's one in which, you know, i really, even if I'm dealing with somebody who committed crimes or done things I fundamentally disagree with or have absolutely opposing ways of seeing the world for me. I am required to empathize with them and to understand them and to try to predict ah why they might have done something or what they're going to say and get in their heads and not get in their heads, like manipulate them, get in their heads and try to empathize with with them so that they know that I at least understand where they're coming from. And that that is honestly a very exhausting experience. It's a really, really, really intense form of co-regulation, I'll say. I think it'd be very therapeutic for them, especially if it's somebody who maybe is talking about a traumatic experience that they've never fully processed or know spoken to professional about.
00:11:27
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I mean, I could only imagine the ah kind of conversations that you have with many people and how hearing that is probably often what people doing trauma coaching or therapy might feel like. is yeah where it's ah It's exhausting to hold space for hours. And it's like doing almost like, probably at times felt like maybe doing a, like a therapeutic intensive where you're sitting with someone for for hours and they're maybe- And I'm not a therapist. like I'm not trained in doing this. and i think you know you know Speaking to other documentary filmmakers, i mean it it is one of those things I think nobody people who like watch documentaries and perhaps take for granted is how emotionally intense it can be to make a movie. um The absolute like total empathy you need to give towards you, the care and empathy you need to give towards your subjects. And then the fact that like you need you have to be very protective of them.
00:12:19
Speaker
Because when you're working with other stakeholders, other distributors, other teams, other editors, or or whatever, they may not have the personal relationship that you do with the subject. And they might, ah you know, smell in the water some a more sensational angle than you feel comfortable with or something like that. And it's it can be very, very intense experience.
00:12:40
Speaker
ah protecting your sources and making sure that they're the trust they've given you isn't violated because film is a collaborative medium. Like not everything in the end is up to me and there's, you know, but you do what you do the best you can.
00:12:52
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I'm going, it sounds like you, yeah, you really have to be very on and aware and very present with not only the,
00:13:06
Speaker
the people you're filming and talking to, but your own nervous system as well. Like you said, I mean, it sounds like it can be quite an exhausting day if you're not only handling yourself and the person you're interviewing, but maybe your your team, your crew I'm assuming, right? Even aware of their nervous systems. And and
Role of Safety in Well-being
00:13:20
Speaker
that just, that one I went to, like how, you know, being aware of everyone in this space in this particular setting.
00:13:25
Speaker
It sounds like a very unique, interesting place that it still shows up. Our nervous systems are still there, even on the film set. Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the things I think that people really respond to in in documentaries that are well made and well and good are just a feeling of real emotion that can come through when somebody is telling their story.
00:13:43
Speaker
And you need to create a space where that will actually happen. Like, yeah I think a lot of maybe some documentary producers or directors go in really trying to get that one line, you know, or the gotcha, whatever it is. And that's way less important, I think, getting that one specific line than than the emotion, than the feeling, the viscerality, the, you know, the the fact that you can tell somebody is saying something that comes from a very special and very real place. And that's like, that to me is the real power of documentary. The thing that scripted films just can never have is is that awareness that you're watching a real person being real.
00:14:20
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, speaking of real, wondering, like when did the theory itself become not so much your dad's work, but real for Seth? Like when was that moment or how was that moment? It certainly gradual process. Like, you know, polyvagal theory was introduced to the world in the early 1990s. I was a kid, you know, I was aware of it as a name. I don't think really understood it as a concept, but over the years, just being around it,
00:14:50
Speaker
you know, when I really started reading into it, i it's one of those things where it kind of clicked with me in, I think, a really big way. um And it began to sort of explain a lot of things to me, not necessarily about myself, but about the world around me, right? Like once you, I think, understand polyvagal theory, it's it's a lot easier to not be angry at people because you understand, you know, I think anger is an emotion driven from the feeling that somebody out there is trying to hurt you or that they're wicked or something like that.
00:15:24
Speaker
in And this feeling of like how you know not understanding how could they possibly act that way. If I was them, I wouldn't act that way. That's what leads anger. and think what polyvagal theory forces us to do is recognize that when people act ways that we don't agree with, we don't like, it's because of you know it's it's probably driven by their nervous system. It's probably driven by the fact that they're in a state of fear, state of threat. And that when we're in a state of fear and state of threat,
00:15:49
Speaker
you know, all the things that that we look for that help make life great become largely inaccessible to us are much harder to obtain. And then instead of feeling, you know, angry at people, I think the result is empathy and the realization that you know, the only way to reach people is through love and kindness and understanding and reverberations of feelings of well-being and of safety. I mean, political theory, if I'm going to sum it up in a sentence, what it really is about, it's that feeling safe is crucial to our ability to live a good life. It's really that simple. It's our ability to be happy, healthy, social,
00:16:27
Speaker
And this is true in an anatomical, physical, physiological level.
Fear Manipulation in Media and Politics
00:16:32
Speaker
It's not like some abstract poetic woo-woo stuff. it's It's like baked into our nervous system, right? yeah And once you just grasp that simple concept that feeling safe is is crucial to living a good life,
00:16:47
Speaker
for us and for everybody else. Well, the next logical thing to emerge from that is this idea that, well, okay, then what can I do to make myself and other people feel safe? And suddenly that becomes sort of the answer to everything. It becomes like a guiding principle in so many ways. Um, it becomes, you know, something that you don't even think about, you just feel, I think. And, um, and and I think it makes life a lot better, honestly.
00:17:14
Speaker
but And how do you feel that? How do you notice that when you're this idea of safety? And I even like what you said, this perspective shift from yeah seeing anger, really almost having a perspective shift of, Oh, this is, I could see them with empathy or curiosity, compassion versus judgment. But what shows up for you? Yeah. I mean, i think,
00:17:34
Speaker
Today, like we live in a world that is obviously it's full of anger. It's like an original thing for me to say. It's full of intentionally, maybe even cynically fostered anchor.
00:17:45
Speaker
You know, like, um and, you know, we live in a world in which like, let's just take social media as an example. Like ah social media cares about engagement. It wants you to stare at it all day long, right? It wants you to just scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll. scroll Well, what keeps us engaged is feeling anger and feeling outrage. That's what, you know, it's like a doom scrolling where just feel this anger, but you can't stop scrolling, right? That's doom scrolling.
00:18:12
Speaker
And once you realize that this, okay, well, this algorithm, what eventually happens then is just more and more stuff that fosters more and more anger. It becomes this like doom cycle. It's death. yeah You start setting in. Eventually your whole reality becomes, you know, curated and shaped by these forces that very cynically profits off of us being angry at the expense of our health, the expense of our happiness, right? then look at the way maybe certain members of the political class or the media talk. Where, you know, if you feel threatened, well, polyvagal theory says that all of your resources are going towards a system of threat, de-resourcing your brain, de-resourcing the systems that offer critical independent thinking for learning, for actually, you know, for for collective action, for all these great things.
00:19:04
Speaker
And so maybe certain people benefit from us being scared and threatened because it's how every dictator and authoritarian strongman in history has ever operated the same playbook. Maybe people scared when they're scared, they stop asking questions. They, they, you know, and, and you kind of see it everywhere. And then you say to yourself, well, these people who are subject to this, they' they're not worthy of hate They're not worthy of anger. They're worthy of love. Like that, that's really, it's really that simple. And you don't you know you don't change their hearts and minds by being angry at them. You change their hearts and minds by caring about them, loving them, and empathy. you know And it's so hard because so many of these forces just try to squeeze that out of us these days. But you know once you, I think, really see it, it's a little bit easier to see through these things. It's a little bit easier to see through it all and to at least take the steps necessary to protect yourself from it, even if you can't protect the rest of the world. know
00:19:59
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and I appreciate that perspective and especially in a world that, yeah, you're right that these algorithms thrive on attention and and and watch time, which is really going to off more often than not be activated by strong emotions. Well, it's more straightforward than that. Like there are market research firms out there that use... biometrics and whatnot to measure what they call engagement. What they're really measuring is oftentimes gut bank skin response, GSR, which is basically like sweat, which is a proxy for sympathetic activity, meaning fight or flight. Right. yeah So literally, literally they're just measuring how fight or flighty you are and saying this person's engaged. Right. That's all they're measuring. And so it literally becomes, you know, if that's what you're self-selecting for and your machine learning is is learning and being trained off of, you're just going to get more and more and more things that make us feel more and more threatened. It's pretty straightforward.
00:20:50
Speaker
Yeah. no and by to totally agree with you on that. And and I can see working with clients who go there, just you could see the spiral. and you know But your perspective is one of, hey, you know this idea of love, that really what people need is you know to get out of anger, out of sympathetic, is love, is compassion, is empathy, and even understanding people's behaviors. you know I've heard your dad say, and i'm sure you've heard your dad say, and maybe have said is that you when you understand from this polyvagal theory, you begin to see people's behavior make sense, whether we agree with it or not. yeah yeah
00:21:21
Speaker
You could say, I could see why people might do this given the state of the nervous system. And I think and then you, then you begin to, I think, get a little bit more introspective and go like, wait, maybe I've acted like that sometimes too. Maybe I've been awful. right I've been angry. Maybe I've been, you know, whatever. And you're grateful for the people who have given you space and grace when you've been like that. Right. Like the people who've been like, it's okay. You know? And then you say, well, maybe I should have for other people too.
00:21:45
Speaker
Right. I think, and and recognize that dysregulation happens to everybody. Um, and dysregulation doesn't, you know maybe shouldn't necessarily be met with with anger and hate yeah yeah again different perspective that may not uh get as much algorithm clicks on the socials uh i mean cute cute kittens honestly like train your algorithm just watch bunch of cute kittens and sure it's true yeah and click away from the bad stuff i guess that's where it lies is the cute kittens and puppies and other ones but um yeah
00:22:18
Speaker
but Thinking about this, because you gave your definition about, really it's about safety. If you could you know kind of sum up polyvagal
Understanding Polyvagal Theory's Simplicity
00:22:25
Speaker
theory with kind of an intentional awareness. But I'm wondering, that's kind of like a working definition simplified.
00:22:32
Speaker
What's something that you're seeing out there being circulated that you maybe wish people would stop misunderstanding about the theory itself that you're seeing is spinning out in the ether? I think the polyvagal theory at its core is is really simple and something that I think is largely borne out by, i think, our own, I think there's a reason it's spoken to so many people is because they see it in their lives. We recognize that when we feel different ways, our bodies operate differently. We feel differently. Our senses operate differently. When we feel angry and riled up, when we feel frozen and dissociated, when we feel
00:23:09
Speaker
safe and warm and loved, everything in our body operates differently. And that's, that's, I think the important thing about polyvagal theory is it's really that simple. And what polyvagal theory says, when we feel safe, we're capable of great things.
00:23:24
Speaker
We're capable of healing, we're capable of learning, capable being creative or capable of spreading that to other people is, is what's key. You know, polyvagal theory is in one sense, this,
00:23:35
Speaker
model for the autonomic nervous system and how feeling safer, feeling threatened shifts everything in our lives. But in another sense, it is in many ways, the story of how we as mammals and humans evolved to be a social species, right?
00:23:51
Speaker
And how we are at our best when we, you know we humans, mammals are uniquely capable, not just of sensing danger, the threat, but sensing safety and are drawn to safety.
00:24:02
Speaker
And we are at our best when we are in places of safety around people of safety. And when we live in a world that tries to turn us against each other and tries to make us feel unsafe, um I think my dad would say we're being deprived of our birthright, right? Like the best human existence is a safe human existence.
00:24:22
Speaker
That's the life we all want. And we live in a world in which people don't respect that. They don't respect that. And in doing so, they deprive us of our capabilities, of our of our potential, of our birthright as humans.
00:24:37
Speaker
That concept of being our birthright, that's a yeah framework is ah pretty powerful that this is our birthright. um And how do we...
00:24:49
Speaker
what does it look like in our life? And I know for people come from different contexts, different backgrounds, depending on where they're at where they are. And some people may not have that birthright or access to that in the moment, depending on the particular time and space. just in the moment, I mean, ever. Yeah, they may never have yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there lots of people out there who are never given even brief moments of safety. And the human body and nervous incredibly resilient. Yeah. You know, all of these systems of defense that can be so harmful, they're there for a reason. know, they evolve. They're not bad. not awful. They're there to keep us alive. And for millions of years evolution, they did their job very well. They kept us alive to point where we are sitting here talking. right now. But these are systems that were not designed to be perpetually activated.
00:25:35
Speaker
i mean, they they drain all of our resources and they drain the resources that otherwise would go towards health, growth, restoration, sociality, advanced brain function, all of these things. And so when we feel threatened all the time, our bodies are never given the opportunity to heal, grow, restore. And we can handle, we're really resilient. We can handle a lot of threat, but we need least some brief moments of reprieve to recuperate, to regulate. So we have the strength, resilience to go out there. And I think, you know if you're talking at it to like a clinical audience or people are therapists or deal of patients for a living, um I think this is something that I think is really important for them to understand too, is like, you know, you're, you're oftentimes absorbing the trauma of your patients. You're, you,
00:26:25
Speaker
And if you yourself don't give yourself those moments of reprieve, you don't take care of take care of yourself. if you don't allow yourself to feel safe for those moments between, you're not going to be able to project safety to your patient.
00:26:39
Speaker
Because again, we live in an autonomic echo chamber. If you come off as not feeling regulated, your patient will read that and they will feel it. It will bounce back into it. Right. And so it's very, very important for everybody, particularly people who you know see patients to make sure that take care of themselves at least a little bit that resilience is given a chance to exist.
00:27:02
Speaker
yeah I wholeheartedly agree that we two, as a therapist myself and a coach, I wholeheartedly understand that yeah I have to have those practices and intentions with finding states of purposeful rest, recovery, things I do for silence, just to kind of stir that in and have a practice of that. Because I know when I don't, or I know I've less of that,
00:27:26
Speaker
being aware of my own nervous system, you know, you know, less of a threshold, so to speak at times and also being a parent, you know, how these things all play in my life um that it, we do need that. And cause my, especially my, I think of my kids, they pick up my energy for sure. um And so do my clients, right? They could pick stuff up may not be verbal, may not be able to say the word, but there is this kind of felt sense. You, you get a sense of this with people, you know? If you have they pick it up. You know, like we're, we're like, so like our nervous systems are so attuned at these things and the words themselves are relatively unimportant. It's, it's the presence we have. It's energy we give off. I don't mean like,
00:28:03
Speaker
you know, energy in a new age sense. I mean, just literally like, what are the subtle characteristics or gestures and body language and all these things that we give off that the nervous system is fine tuned to be a radar for and to pick up and to say, this person isn't well, are you all right, man? You know, and when you sense that around somebody else, your nervous system is asking, wait, what's frightening them? Should I be frightened as well?
00:28:27
Speaker
Yeah, well, it acts exactly. And then you mentioned just care for self and how do you do that? What's two, three ways that you, as Seth, like daily life, you know, when things get stressful or messy, like, or in film or whatever, what do you do to help create those spaces and moments eat for you? Yeah, I think, you know, one of the,
00:28:46
Speaker
the big takeaways of polyvagal theory, honestly, is that the most powerful way of regulation is co-regulation. It's to be around the people who make us feel safe. You know, there's only so much we can do on our own. And so being around our loved ones, our families, our friends, the animals we love, all these sorts of things are such an important thing. And the the problem today is that so much of the things we once needed to physically be around people to do, we don't actually need to be around them We can text them. We can Zoom them, can order food on DoorDash. You don't actually need to physically interact with people. like And so our nervous systems um oftentimes are deprived of just the base level of social interaction,
Importance of Social Interaction
00:29:27
Speaker
just because of how the world was structured these days, that would have been just there by virtue of being alive in sort of a pre-technological world. um
00:29:37
Speaker
And so you need to pay attention to the things and kind of like think to yourself, like, all just because I don't need to do this, strictly speaking, i should do this. you know And you know I grew up in a generation of time in which like hanging out with friends, going to parties, these are just like frivolous things. And now I recognize like, no this is actually important stuff. Like it's really important to spend time with friends. It's really important to socialize. It's really important to go dancing and party and do all these things that make us feel good.
00:30:04
Speaker
are The reason we like these things is because this is our nervous system regulating itself. This is our nervous system building up resilience. And once you give yourself permission to these things you want to do anyway, like there's a reason we're drawn to these things. They're fun, they're soothing, they're relaxing, they're exciting. They're all of these great things.
00:30:22
Speaker
It becomes really easy when you start saying like, wait a second, like these these things that make us feel better and help us regulate, they're just things that we call fun. Some of things are a whole lot easier.
00:30:34
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, and and again, that that need in a world that you're right, we could we could be so separate now in this space where we don't need to have physical interaction, but there's something about being in the presence of others that um phone can, you can get somewhere on the phone with someone. I've i've had those moments or even where you you still sense it, but there is still something different. There's like a- Oh, it's something very different. And Zoom will get you a little bit closer too, like you see the face, right? But yeah you know the you know my my my dad will say that the don't know how describe it like the basically um the the steady you know communication technology 99.9 of human existence right like the written word didn't exist right the only telephones didn't exist the only way to communicate with somebody was face to face and our body we we evolved to be a social species we evolved to be a species that were required social behavior in order to survive. And so built into our body is a compulsion to be social, right? And when you tease the social nervous system and social engagement system through these simulacrums of social activity, like talking to somebody on the internet or
00:31:46
Speaker
the parasocial relationship you might have with a sitcom, you know, listen to a podcast or playing a video game or any of these things that are intrinsically appealing because they tap into our need for social behavior without actually giving us full face-to-face interaction. Our nervous system doesn't actually give us all the credit for it.
00:32:04
Speaker
You know, I think back to the video game, The Sims, which was very popular in like the 90s and aughts. In which you had this like running meter of all of these things your sim, your little virtual character had to do to survive. They had to eat, they had to use the bathroom.
00:32:18
Speaker
They also had to socialize, right? And if you didn't socialize for a certain period time, they'd be in a corner just like weeping and despondent and unable to do anything. We're sort of the same way. You know, we need to have social behavior pretty regularly or else our meters go really low. Yeah. And that craving for social behavior can be tapped into through all of these things. But without actual face-to-face interaction, our nervous system doesn't give us the full credit and we don't get the fully replenished meter.
00:32:46
Speaker
I think a lot of people may have felt that during the pandemic when, all right, suddenly all this social interaction is going online, but you still feel pretty rotten. Right. <unk>re You're online, but yeah, there's still a sense of disconnection or something. It's not fully quite right. Yeah, loneliness. Yeah. It's better than nothing. Better than nothing, but it's not perfect. And and it's it's a long way from being perfect.
Creativity in Safe Environments
00:33:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And we live in a day and age that has more and more of that in a way. Yeah. More and more, you know, and and as someone who's in this, in the industry of, in a way, media, like documentary filmmaking and everything else you're doing, you know, when you think of this, this nervous system states and polyvagal theory and how that shapes your creativity.
00:33:34
Speaker
how How does that play out for you as ah as a creative when you think of the nervous system? Yeah, it's funny. yeah i so I make sure to honestly budget a lot of time for just you know letting my brain wander, feeling unstressed, doing things relaxing, going long walks, going to a movie or in the middle of the day, spending time with friends, realizing that Oftentimes that like little burst of creativity that comes out of nowhere comes because of something else I'm doing. You know, creativity, kind of view, it's like an input and output. Like if you're not putting anything in there, if you're not exposing yourself to culture, hang out people or hearing other ideas, you're not going to be able output anything creative, right? You can't just exist in this like world.
00:34:18
Speaker
windowless silo and come up with ideas. And so I make sure to put myself in scenarios where feel good. i feel safe. I'm around great people. I'm exposed to interesting ideas and just hope that, you know, some good ideas come out of it.
00:34:36
Speaker
Yeah, well, and I like that again, what I keep hearing, Seth, is this intentionality of creating space, of slowing down, of connection, of things to allow the nervous system to be open.
00:34:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's not necessarily slowing down for me, you know, it's but it but it is it is, I think, just like listening to the body and recognizing that it's really important to do things that make you feel good, you know, and particularly like in in things, there's a multiple, you know Goodbye yourself is great, oftentimes necessary. Go to other people even better. you know like if you eat All these things, they just it adds up and adds up. and then you know I live in a world in which like that one good idea is worth so much more than hours and hours of pointless toil.
00:35:23
Speaker
And so I try to put myself in those positions where that one good idea will happen rather than just like staring at a blank page for hours. Yeah. Yeah. Again, like you said, going to see a movie or with friends, like all this stuff, um but it's still intentional. I'm hearing definitely an intentionality to it It's not completely random. Oh yeah, of course. Very intentional. It's creating space, like, no, I need this in order to facilitate creativity. Which is, in you know again, for some people, I'm sure it might be a luxury or a privilege to be able to create space. um Because some people in our world, to your point earlier our conversation, is that some people may not have that. they They can't. It's not a no access to it.
00:36:00
Speaker
They don't have access to it. They you know they they don't have the time for it. you know's They have other people relying on them. Their jobs might be always on and very stressful. you know i'm I'm very aware of that. like um And you know I think it's it's a shame, though, that we put people into those scenarios, we like that we expect people to toil endlessly and to always feel alert and threatened.
00:36:28
Speaker
and and And oftentimes it's really hard not to imagine that from a very cynical perspective, of that's very intentional. You know, like yeah it's when people feel ah stressed, when they feel like that, like, know, maybe there are certain people who don't want everybody to feel great at times. Yeah.
00:36:49
Speaker
Yeah.
Promoting Safety and Empathy in Society
00:36:50
Speaker
Well, reminds me the, um you know, you guys' this book, Our Polyvagal World, when you, I'm assuming doing some of the research and prep work, when you talked about school systems and jail systems, and among other things, about how things are, even how environments are shaped or created or generated to maybe intentionally or unintentionally promote certain nervous system states.
00:37:14
Speaker
Yeah, or maybe just people aren't paying attention to this, right? you know i don't think anybody designing schools is trying to make people feel unsafe. They just don't think about it, right? like They don't think about what the lighting is going to do. They don't think about this. Or they come from a very like archaic point of view about, let's just say, learning, which is you know learning comes from sitting down and shutting up and raising your hand rather than engaging in a conversation or being creative. creative or going on a walk in the woods and be creative. You know, I think a lot of times people are just sort of set in their ways or it just never even occurred to them that these things matter. And I think the revelation of polyvagal theory is these things matter. It doesn't mean they're the only things that matter, right? But they matter.
00:38:00
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's this this really foundation thread that's in in all and everything um to varying degrees, right? The nervous system is always involved down to what degree, depending on the context and person, there's gonna be lesser or more, but there's a threat, whether it's a space you create to a conversation, to intentionality, having dinner with someone, to face you know real time versus face time, all these things, or making a film and what emotions are left behind. and Really, in all and all spaces, it's this thread that I see kind of moving in and out of everything.
00:38:33
Speaker
Yeah. um You know, when I think about your work too, you know, coming, moving forward in the space in which you reside, your creative juices, so to speak, you know, if you can wave a wand, magic wand, I always love this question, if you can wave that wand and if Seth could change things in a way that would be more, I guess, polyvagal oriented. What would that be? What would Seth want to change? What would be better? what would be different?
00:39:02
Speaker
I just think, you know, that's a big question. um No, I i um honestly, I think like just people, wreck you know, we we're capable of such greatness as people. We really are when we feel safe and when we care about the safety of others.
00:39:19
Speaker
I think, That's the gateway to empathy. It's a gateway to peace. It's gateway to love, carrying all these kind of like hippy-dippy things, truthfully. But I think um if I could just change one thing, it would be that people noticed and paid attention when other people maybe people who are in politics or the media are intentionally making them feel threatened and, and understand that that's bad. That's bad. That's that you're, you know, you're, you're you're not benefiting from that. You know, I think a lot of people have chosen to lean into anger and outrage. They're addicted to it. Many ways it's really easy.
00:40:01
Speaker
It's really, really easy, but very harmful. It's very, very harmful. Yeah. Well, if ah if if that's easier than, guess leaning into that anger, the fear than leaning into the empathy, curiosity, awareness of looking beyond someone's behavior to see what might be really driving this.
00:40:22
Speaker
I guess, what would you say about that? I'm sorry, repeat that question? Yeah. Like if if it's easier to, I guess, lean into anger or and fear, anxiety, the i guess the antidote of being trying to create safety and love and curiosity,
00:40:36
Speaker
really in a world that is for a large degree pushing some of these narratives of like anger, othering, fear to step into the place of like ventral kind of awareness of seeing people, what's behind the behavior. And i guess, what has that been like for you it's a kind of do that?
00:40:58
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's I think you just kind of said it. Like it's, I think, you know, it doesn't mean that like, you know, anger is an emotion. I mean, it's not bad to feel angry. all You know, it is bad to feel angry all the time. i think that's pretty inarguable. But, you know, like I think big part of the therapeutic process, you probably tell clients to feel your emotions and in not like fight them and understand them. um So I'm not saying like run from ever feeling angry. Like we need to, or we're humans, like these things all exist, but understand when anger is being fostered, understand when anger is being intentionally there and making yourself a little bit less accessible to it. You know, okay like it's like, like we're,
00:41:43
Speaker
You know, we're, we're capable of such great things when we feel safe. Again, I think the, and the, the thing that emerges from that is so simple. Ask yourself then what makes me feel safe and what makes other people feel safe. And then thinking about what you can do to foster that, like, right? Like if certain lighting, certain sounds, certain being around certain people, certain pets or plants, places, whatever it is, those things make you feel safe.
00:42:09
Speaker
Do them, right? Don't run from them. And then, all right. how am i coming off to people around me? If I'm always angry, i'm going to make other people feel angry. I'm going to make other people feel unsafe. And I'm using the word anger a lot here, but I really mean unsafe. That's really what I mean.
00:42:23
Speaker
You know, that's really what I mean. yeah um And I think just like an awareness of these things is so important because again, if we're not aware of it, we think it swept we get swept up in it. That's the problem. We just get swept up in these things that are put out there by other people who don't really have our interests at heart.
00:42:39
Speaker
a Well, yeah, and that awareness requires us to think of Really all of all all of us, ourselves and those around us. Going back to the one of the main points you said is even filmmaking is thinking of what, in a way, what emotion are people going to walk away with and thinking about that process of, okay, I can't control the emotion, but I wanna think about all these things, or as interviewing a you know and listening to someone's story, how do I approach them based on how other of might have approached them, other directors or documentary filmmakers? And I'm intentionally maybe trying to approach it with awareness and slow you know maybe slowing down and listening and really trying to lean in. But that takes, I think, some sense of slowness. Like you can't hurry that, I don't think, right? yeah're yeah It's more ventral, right? it's more of a, I'm here versus this,
00:43:31
Speaker
anxiety driven, you know, like removing pressure from yourself to be certainly like, just, you know, we live in a world that's not kind to us. Like, you know, nobody's perfect. I'm not perfect. You know, we all deal with stress, different degrees.
00:43:48
Speaker
ah but a lot of that stress is put out there by other people who want us to feel stressed. And a lot of it is stuff we kind of opt into and we don't really need to. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's an important takeaway, I think, for the next generation, even ours, is that, hey, we could we could make we might need to make some intentional choices of unplugging ourselves from certain oh for sure yeah certain things and to see really what the impact that's having on our nervous system states. um You know, and before we say goodbye, yeah i know, you mentioned some of the the films you, you have worked on, but if people wanted to continue to follow your work or stay in touch with what you're doing, where should they go? What they should look for? I mean, I'm, I'm pretty easy to find out there. um You know, continue do work with my dad and polyvagal theory, just trying to,
00:44:36
Speaker
I'll spread it as much as I can and teach people about and educate people. I feel making work is a lot of fun. You know, you can see again, class action park, the movie on HBO max, how to rob a bank is a movie on Netflix. My new movie just premiered at some film festivals called Santa con. Nothing to announce yet about when you'll be able to see it, but hopefully soon.
00:44:57
Speaker
Yeah. Well, to Seth, I appreciate you and having our dialogue today and and giving a different light on and just hearing how it shows up in a different space, you know, from your dad, obviously being the researcher that he is and everything else he's doing, but just from you and ah in a creative space of sharing hearing how you see it, how you experience it and your intentional work within that space, within film and and storytelling.
00:45:24
Speaker
ah And I love it because it really just goes to show really how how this shows up in so many ways and really all ways. And so I just thank you for your candidness and and coming and sharing with us today.
00:45:36
Speaker
Great to be here. Thank
Resources for Learning More
00:45:37
Speaker
you. Thank you for listening to Wired For Connection, a polyvagal podcast. This show is produced by the Polyvagal Institute, an international nonprofit organization dedicated to creating a safer and more connected world.
00:45:52
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:46:28
Speaker
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