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Integrating IFS & Polyvagal Theory with Dr. Frank Anderson
1.3k Plays9 days ago
In this episode of Wired for Connection, host Travis Goodman interviews Dr. Frank Anderson, founder of the Trauma Institute and a renowned leader in trauma healing. Together, they explore Dr. Anderson’s journey into trauma work, his evolution in understanding healing as both an internal and relational process, and the integration of Internal Family Systems (IFS) with Polyvagal Theory. Through personal stories and professional insight, Dr. Anderson shares his perspectives on parts work, the significance of ‘self’ and ‘soul,’ and the nuanced ways trauma shapes and can heal the nervous system.
For more resources or to get involved, visit polyvagal.org alongside Dr. Anderson's website at www.frankandersonmd.com.
CONNECT WITH Polyvagal Institute:
WEB: www.polyvagalinstitute.org
Instagram: @polyvagalinstitute
LinkedIn: polyvagal-institute
Email: community@polyvagal.org
CONNECT WITH Travis Goodman:
Instagram: Travis.Goodman.LMFT
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Transcript
The Necessity of Connection in Healing
00:00:00
Speaker
And it's internal and relational. Yep. Internal and relational. So I used to think it was more internal. I told you in the beginning, I loved bringing self into the picture. That was super important for me.
00:00:15
Speaker
But I don't feel that self alone is enough for healing anymore. I've really changed. I really believe it has to happen in connection.
Introduction to Dr. Frank Anderson and His Focus
00:00:25
Speaker
And I I'm honored today to welcome Dr. Frank Anderson, founder of the Trauma Institute and a leading voice in the world of trauma healing and systems of self.
00:00:36
Speaker
For over three decades, Dr. Anderson has devoted his career to understanding how trauma lives in the nervous system and how we can reclaim resilience, connection, and wholeness. At the Trauma Institute, he leads work rooted in the values of compassion, accessibility, innovation, and collaboration, bringing together modalities like internal family systems, somatic therapy, EMDR, and other approaches to create integrative healing pathways.
00:01:03
Speaker
In today's conversation, we will dive into the intersections of trauma, nervous system science, and parts work. He will help us explore not only how trauma shapes our stories and bodies, but also how we can heal.
Dr. Anderson's Journey with Trauma Healing and IFS
00:01:17
Speaker
Welcome to Wired for Connection, a polyvagal podcast. I am your host, and my name is Travis Goodman. Welcome. Welcome.
00:01:29
Speaker
So Frank, first and foremost, so stoked that you're here to talk with us at ah the Institute here for Wired for Connection. And I'm wondering, can you tell us just a bit about your background and how you ended up in the world of like IFS? Yeah, it was an interesting journey. You know, somebody who kind of,
00:01:46
Speaker
Started out with Bessel van der Kolk at his trauma center. I was a psychiatrist for Bessel van der Kolk starting out in 1992, long time ago, um and worked with trauma from the get go. Like that's when I graduated from my residency in psychiatry at Harvard. It was like.
00:02:02
Speaker
Bessel van der Kolk's Trauma Center was at my institution. So I was so lucky and fortunate to kind of be a part of Bessel's world like since 92, like long time.
00:02:13
Speaker
And I think I met Dick, you know, every year I would do a psychopharm conference for Bessel on the psychopharmacology of PTSD and dissociation at his annual conference, which by the way is still in and in existence, right?
00:02:25
Speaker
And one year he invited a Dick Schwartz.
Innovative Approaches to Trauma Healing with IFS
00:02:27
Speaker
You know, i I saw this guy. vola And I went to the workshop. was like totally random. I went to the workshop and i was like, wow, this is that was one of my Oprah aha moments. Really.
00:02:37
Speaker
It was one of those like, holy cow. Like you can really everybody talked about integrating trauma, not healing it, like integrating your experience, I should say, you know, which is different than integrating models because we weren't there at the time at all. Yeah.
00:02:53
Speaker
yeah How do you process your trauma and live with it and move on? And Dick Schwartz was talking about healing and getting these parts out of the past and never having to go back to the trauma, which was a novel idea for me yeah at the time.
00:03:08
Speaker
So in the ways that I do, I dove in. I took level one, level two, level three. I was like... I'm going to be around him and have any chance I can. And, you know, I have this tendency to rise to the top is what I do because I'm just so voracious around my learning. And surprise, surprise, a lot of it was about my own healing. Like, hello.
00:03:29
Speaker
Like, yes, I want to help people and I have, but... I was also desperately trying to heal my own trauma. So IFS became a really good modality
Cultural Influences and Personal Growth with IFS
00:03:38
Speaker
for me. It really integrated a lot of things. I had been EMDR trained.
00:03:42
Speaker
I trained in sensory motor psychotherapy. I knew a lot about and neuroscience. And it was kind of a way, you know, I created the trauma curriculum for IFS. And it was a way for me to put my stamp on the IFS model. Yeah.
00:03:57
Speaker
And integrating neuroscience and all these other models in a way that wasn't there before. Yeah. So it was it was kind of a natural fit um for me. And that's kind of how I kind of, yeah, kind of how I got started in a way.
00:04:11
Speaker
Yeah. I mean... Right time, right place that um it's just yeah door was open and I could see how you would take that step of this novel idea of of something that was a little more unique in the sense around trauma, integration, healing. and Like, wow, this is different.
00:04:26
Speaker
Someone's coming and talking about it. Let's just go. And, you know, it sounds like myself, like it it gets exciting. Like, let's go for the door. And it was literally in your next door or in your same door room, I guess, technically. um You know what else? I'll say one other thing about it also was that it was an the idea that self-mattered was novel for me because I grew up in this very ethnic Italian family.
00:04:53
Speaker
And in that trauma constellation, the group was much more important than the
Understanding IFS: Parts, Self-Energy, and Healing Capacities
00:05:00
Speaker
individual. When you're in that when you're in a kind of a trauma environment, certain cultures deal with trauma differently. My family culture, which was like Italian mafia family, right? Okay. My wife was like,
00:05:13
Speaker
The group is what's important. Individuals are threatening to the survival of the group. So this idea that self mattered, that I mattered was really a powerful draw for me. Like I can include me in this discussion. It doesn't always have to be about the group.
00:05:32
Speaker
Yeah, that resonates, makes total sense. it's a big I can imagine you as you're training through schooling like this is prior even right timing to be open to the idea.
00:05:43
Speaker
yeah of like, oh my gosh, like I never really thought of this. Even if maybe there was a as knowing in the gut level, it's like in my environment said no. yeah And now this guy's coming to talk about this. Wait, what?
00:05:54
Speaker
um It was like eye matter? Eye matter? Yeah. Wow. Okay. That was kind of bringing self into the picture. Yeah. like And you know some people, as we know, and polyvagal theory talks about this, like hyperaroused, hypoaroused, whether you're you know ventral dorsal or sympathetic, like when you're in dorsal, it's not about the group at all. It's all about...
00:06:22
Speaker
Me, like I'm alone, like i am shut down. So some people have the shutdown where group is important. I was the opposite. I was like, it's all about the group. The individual is not important. So when we look at these adaptations of trauma, yeah some, people you know, eat, there are different polar opposites here, which polyvagal theory does a great job of, you know, describing neurophysiologically, you know, whatever side you're on.
00:06:50
Speaker
um Now, now I'm like both matter. Yeah. It's like, love ah you know, that the self and connection heals trauma. It's a both and not an either or.
00:07:02
Speaker
Yeah. And absolutely. And, but of course, depending on where you're coming from, it's like, we'll leave you on these and again, which is also, I've asked the polarizations and then all that stuff on blending and why, you know, what's the purpose, what's the protective, what's it trying to prevent? yeah.
00:07:17
Speaker
You know, and and when I think of IFS, you know, those that some listening to this will know. um Obviously, some hey if it's a therapist, let's see, you've heard the term and yes at this point, if you don't know what it is.
00:07:29
Speaker
Yeah. um Can you give like a a quick elevator pitch? Like what is IFS in your in Frank's eyes? Like this is this is what it's about. Yes. Yeah, it's great. And it's good that you say in Frank's eyes, because I've really expanded this model from my perspective as it relates to trauma. So there's probably the Dick Schwartz traditional, what IFS means to him.
00:07:51
Speaker
And there's the Frank Anderson, what IFS means to me, as in mostly as it relates to trauma, because that's really the way I've incorporated this model. But generally speaking, the model says that we really have different parts or aspects of our personality.
00:08:06
Speaker
Everybody does, and we're born with them. Because when I was in my residency program, if you had parts, you were considered multiple personality disorder. Like parts were pathological. right Parts were a problem. Dick Schwartz had this novel idea that said parts are normal.
00:08:26
Speaker
We're actually born with them. And it's this is my interpretation. Because of overwhelming life experiences, which we all have, some of our parts will take on different roles.
00:08:43
Speaker
Okay. Some of our parts will take on the role of protection. Mm-hmm. they show up as symptoms, eating, drinking, binging, whatever, yeah is a protective response to trauma. And that's unusual for people to hear that these symptoms, which seem problematic, are actually primitive symptoms but protective adaptations. So the part that drinks is trying to protect from the overwhelming pain of loneliness, for example.
00:09:15
Speaker
So we all have parts that are forced to take on extreme roles as a result of trauma and trauma. We all have parts that carry the pain of the trauma, the wounding of the trauma. I'm lonely. I'm alone. I'm unlovable. I'm worthless. I'm no good.
00:09:35
Speaker
Right? yeah And there's this way of dealing with the parts that protect, the parts that carry the pain, and this concept of self-energy, this inherent power.
00:09:47
Speaker
wisdom or healing capacity that is that internal work that i was so drawn to yeah of hey there's a way that you self the non-traumatized place in you yeah have the capacity to help heal this trauma and release the energy that isn't yours to carry in the first place that you carry as a result of your trauma. So for me, it's a lot about self connection and self awareness to have people reconnect to these places that have been severed within themselves as a result of trauma.
00:10:24
Speaker
Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I love the, in Frank size, that's why I asked it. Cause you're right. We, we all different perspectives and I'm not talking to Dick Schwartz. I'm talking to Frank and, um, yeah um, you know We'll talk to Dick another time. but There you go. you know and and And what I hear, too, is that just a thing that came up for me, i think, in a culture today, too, and I'm kind of baiting you on this. So just so you know, you're going to answer beautifully. I know you will.
00:10:48
Speaker
But is self the same thing? you know when When people hear self, I think sometimes we get into the realm of like, okay, now there's being selfish and narcissistic. Yeah. So yeah when we say self, can you just give another quick little defining piece to that to for the listeners here as you understand?
00:11:05
Speaker
It's not going to be quick. I'm sorry. I know. Expand, please. This is because I've really expanded it. Like, yeah if you look at the traditional IFS model, he Dick Schwartz talks about the eight C's of self-energy.
00:11:21
Speaker
Calm, curious, compassionate, clear, creative, confident. I can never remember all that. Yeah, I'm always the same. Yeah, there's eight in there. I get about five to seven, and I'm good because...
00:11:35
Speaker
And that's one such way to think about self. It's different than parts and we're born with it. the they The reason I say it's not a quick answer for me is I, expand what I've done is expanded this idea of self energy because of trauma in a couple different ways. So on one level, I expand the human experience of self,
00:12:04
Speaker
from our spiritual dimension of self. And I talk about the difference between self and soul. Everybody has a soul, and that is this like essence. i think I think our resilience and temperament are aspects of our soul. Mm-hmm.
00:12:26
Speaker
Okay. So there's this spiritual source energy, God, Buddha, whatever you want to call it. It's like healing capacity that's in everyone. Yeah.
00:12:37
Speaker
That has a dimension of source and soul and God and Jesus, Buddha, whatever. So I think there's a, it's a layer that's beyond us. It's like a state of being when we access everything.
00:12:49
Speaker
that place that I think everyone's capable of, okay? yeah That's different than the human experience of self, you know? So I make this distinction, because we all have a self, we're all living in the world, and neuroscience shows us about where is self located, you know? And this gets into polyvagal theory, like is self in ventral?
00:13:11
Speaker
you know And I've had lovely discussions with Deb Dana about this, which has been really great. For self bigger alone. And self... for me self is bigger than ventral alone and self also incorporates ventro which is this safe neurological state yeah that allows us to be safe in connection right so it's a state of being is the way i think of it which is why i add a spiritual dimension as well as our human experience and i think it has a wisdom
00:13:50
Speaker
about it that's wiser than any therapist ever will be. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. yeah I want to help people access their intuition and their wisdom because that is what got severed in trauma.
00:14:05
Speaker
Yeah. You get disconnected from your safe source soul as a result of trauma, and we're here to heal that and reconnect it. So, you know, one other thing I'll say about this, and this is another new expansion for me, is the IFS model in its traditional form will say self is never harmed or traumatized. yeah aye I have a slightly different view on that. And what my slightly different view is this.
00:14:39
Speaker
And this comes from personal experience as well as working with people who have been sexually violated in particular, but not only. When we're talking about components of who we are gender orientation sin or our sexual being.
00:15:00
Speaker
When those things get violated, for me, that's a violation of the human dimension of self. yeah I, you know, as somebody who grew up gay, like gay is not a part.
00:15:17
Speaker
It's who I am. Okay. Gender. Gender. whether you're man, woman, or non-binary, is not a part, it's like who I am in human form. So I think self can sustain trauma under certain circumstances.
00:15:33
Speaker
When I work with people who have been sexually violated, it violates their sense of self. You understand? So yeah bigtime I distinguish, I say yes, I believe self can be traumatized, and that's why I distinguish self from soul.
00:15:48
Speaker
yeah I don't think soul, or source energy yeah is, I think that's always protected. Yeah, i would I would totally agree with that distinction. i Yeah, 100%. Because that's like the ultimate soul, I think, in that sphere is more of the ultimate truth reality. And we're we're kind of trying to live in this, you got how do we integrate these planes? And then yeah our true and i agree with working with some pretty highly um traumatized individuals, especially with sexual abuse or or even pretty invasive to some degree psychological relationships.
00:16:24
Speaker
Yeah. Abuses too can really affect the the self. but Right. And it really warps that view, especially when it starts really young age. And if it's ongoing, it just, it just makes everything so confusing. Right.
00:16:38
Speaker
Pre-verbal. oh God. Yeah. absolutely trauma It really does. It's yeah our sense of who we are in the world. Big time. Yeah, would agree with that. And I love that distinction that there's there's ah another layer here in which we can access that we all have the capacity for.
00:16:52
Speaker
it makes me think of many writers. I even think of Linehan's work at DBT was her thing is we all have the capacity for wisdom. Now, do we access it? yeah We don't always, but we all have the capacity for it. And other great thinkers have said something very similar to this.
00:17:06
Speaker
um and And I loved, you know, today, obviously we're looking at, you know, that's a little, by the way, I love the expansion on self. I think that's so helpful to distinguish to distinguish and to be a little clear, um you know, and taking the next step for today's conversation is the the integration. There's that fun word of, you know, polyvagal theory in IFS. So how do you see with your work now, like, You know, 2025, here we are with all this stuff.
00:17:32
Speaker
How are you integrating IFS and polyvagal theory now in your work? So different. My work is so different in that way. I have to tell you, and in a way that feels really good. It's an evolution.
00:17:44
Speaker
And, you know, before I dive into the way I integrate, I want to give credit to all the model makers. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Like Pat Ogden, Marsha Linehan, Francine Shapiro, you know, um, all the Dick Schwartz, you know, um, all these people, um,
00:18:04
Speaker
that, um, I can't believe I'm forgetting his name. ah Peter Levine. Peter Levine. That's the one I was. Steven Porges. Steven Porges. You know what? I, I'm going to say something about Steven in a way that I see him differently in a very beautiful way.
00:18:20
Speaker
i don't think of Steven as a model maker. I think he's for me, and I've talked to him about this. Polyvagal theory goes across all models. Yep. Okay. Okay.
00:18:30
Speaker
i So he's not created a model in a way. I think Deb did a beautiful job integrating it into psychotherapy. Yes. But Stegen's model, if you will, is like he got it goes,
00:18:42
Speaker
it goes It oozes into every model, yeah right? yeah So there are the, that's my view, okay? i agree But these model makers have highlighted certain aspects of trauma healing, whether Peter Levine or Pat Arden around somatic work, whether it's memory processing around Francine Chaparra and EMDR, or Dick Schwartz around the different parts, right?
00:19:04
Speaker
They all bring an important aspect to trauma healing, yeah okay? yeah And where I'm heading, which is for me, very aligned with polyvagal theory is incorporating it all phys neurophysiologically. And, you know, when you're looking at somebody who's in sympathetic activation, who's on that realm of the ladder, you have to work with processing sympathetic activation in a very different way than you would process dorsal shutdown or hypoarousal, right? And polymuteal theory really helps us, like,
00:19:48
Speaker
You can hold space for somebody who's sympathetically activated using your ventral yeah to help bring them into a safe zone so that they can feel love and connection and do healing work. Yeah.
00:20:05
Speaker
Same is true with somebody who's in dorsal shutdown. When they're so disconnected, the more you push somebody in dorsal shutdown, the further away they're going to run. And so to learn how to utilize yourself, your vagal, if you will, help bring me to somebody from the bottom up.
00:20:26
Speaker
Yeah. When somebody's shut down, it's a bottom-up processing, yeah right? yeah And in some ways, hyperarousal is more of a top-down regulation, and hypoarousal is more of a bottom-up regulation. So you're needing to use yourself and your nervous system to be able to work with somebody in these extreme forms of trauma.
00:20:50
Speaker
The other thing I'm going to say is, and IFS does not do this. This is an expansion for me is, embodying parts i have everybody embody parts and we're using where is when i'm like well when you're angry what is angry look and feel like like show me the posture of anger yeah right where does this fall yeah on dorsal ventral know like where are you here like and how do you move from anger
00:21:22
Speaker
Too safe. And that is, you know, Deb and I have talked about this polyvagal tone, like when you were a vagal tone, right? they go to faal be Not polyvagal tone, sorry. It's so important now for me to have people embody parts and shift out of them in body parts and go back to ventral. Same thing with shutdown.
00:21:46
Speaker
Show me what shutdown is like in your body, yeah right? And then shift out of it, yeah right? And so it helps with unblending and it helps increase vagal tone.
00:21:56
Speaker
And I do this with emotions too. Let's feel it. Let's stop. Let's feel it. Let's stop. So i I'm doing, and incorporating a lot of polyvagal theory into my work regularly now that incorporates the body and emotion and i'm thinking in a very different way than just from a parts perspective right now. So it's much more integrated.
00:22:22
Speaker
Last thing I'll say about it also is when people get in that zone of soul or self, I stop them and I pause them and I slow it down. And I know Deb does this a lot, like, wait a minute.
00:22:37
Speaker
I just noticed a of safety and connection here. Can we encode that? And what I do now is I have people do bilateral stimulation when they are in self energy. Yeah, I like that.
00:22:55
Speaker
Because I'm wanting them to encode and process safety in their body, which is very different. than the terror or the shutdown of shame or panic, right? yeah So I'm encoding these things physiologically yeah by utilizing some of the polyvagal principles in a way that I never did before, just doing straight IFS.
00:23:22
Speaker
And one thing here, I want to ask a follow-up question to that from what you just said, but just to acknowledge, I mean, those are listening. That's a huge, ah one of the organizing principles is is this piece that I think it was implied, but not said explicitly was co-regulation, right? That you're using your body, co-regulating, you know, you said borrowing the vagal, what'd you say? yeah Vagal borrowing or...
00:23:44
Speaker
yeah you're the view you're their bagel in your vague blending your bagel yeah to the person that you're sitting with yeah and that's that co-regulation it's i think of what dan uh dr siegel has mentioned about how you know your your children are borrowing your prefrontal you are their prefrontal cortex is like and and tina bryson also said this within their their work together but it's like that's a huge piece of this is that frank you know what you're speaking to is this really embody embodiment. And you said this 100 percent. Yeah. And using our being.
00:24:15
Speaker
yeah Depending where the client's at. Yeah. As that anchor point to slow down or to help energize depending on where they might fall. And also I think I have best would speak to this too, which I've been doing some training with. And again, it's always expanding is like, yeah am i and am I in the part? am i am i am i Not only am I in ventral, right?
00:24:38
Speaker
Because if I'm in venture, I'd say I'd probably in self energy and I don't want to get too lost me because it's not always the case because sometimes it's self energy for sure. could be in sympathetic. It could be in dorsal too. Yes. It's all of the states according to Deb Dana. There's no bad state much like there's no bad part.
00:24:53
Speaker
You got it. um It's like is this is this an effective space for me to be in right now? Is this a match? Right. Not that it's bad or wrong. That's right. And they both would agree on that. There's no bad part. There's no bad nervous system state. it' yeah Is it useful and is it sustainable? Is it effective? And you know is it leading from self? and I think that's where those really go hand in hand really well together. Yeah.
00:25:16
Speaker
Well, here's the thing. Here's a, here's where they go together. You're absolutely right. And he interesting. I like when I used to take teach IFS in a more traditional framework, self is the primary healer to parts.
00:25:32
Speaker
And the therapist is secondary. This is the way IFS teaches like self, the classic model is primary self to part is the primary healing agent and the therapeutic relationship is secondary.
00:25:45
Speaker
Okay. Okay. and And when you use the word co-regulation, right, I use the word connection because I say love and connection heals trauma.
00:25:56
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. And it's internal and relational, yeah internal and relational. So I used to think it was more internal. I told you in the beginning, I loved bringing self into the picture. That was super important for me, but I don't feel that self alone is enough for healing anymore. I've really changed. I i really believe it has to happen in connection. And honestly, I learned this from my own system. It was fascinating in my own therapy, probably a couple years ago.
00:26:30
Speaker
this younger part of me that was really like physically, abhorrably and physically abused by my father and neglected by my mother because she needed my father so desperately.
00:26:43
Speaker
Okay. So I have this kid who was utterly alone growing up. He was just utterly alone. And when I tried to show up for him,
00:26:57
Speaker
It wasn't enough for him. He's like, here we are again, you and me, and you left me at the time of the trauma. How am I going to trust you now? Like it was a very big deal.
00:27:13
Speaker
repair of an internal relationship. And this younger part of me, I could feel it, honestly, as I'm saying it now, was like, I need you and i need somebody else.
00:27:26
Speaker
My kid was like, I need a father and a mother. I need, that was my, i need two parents, right? One, I need, two people to be there for me now. And that was the way my system worked.
00:27:40
Speaker
And it I don't think everybody has to have a mother and a father to heal. That's not what I'm saying. yeah It's more about what's the relationship yeah and other. It's about the relationship to healing.
00:27:54
Speaker
That is the point that has really expanded my view league because i i you know I don't think people heal in isolation. I just don't. I'm glad you said that. I'm very much on that, Frank, that I too have always wrestled with sometimes that some of the self overly self-focused mode of healing that I agree with a lot of what they say, but then I'm always like, yeah, but there's something about we're wired for relationship connection. And I really, and I am, and this is also to your point, my own experience around,
00:28:30
Speaker
healing journey and working with people, I see that, that there is this longing to be known. And to be seen in, we could do a lot of work with our internal self, but yeah there's still a point that I think stops. We still need those.
00:28:43
Speaker
And I'm to this blanket, but safe safe enough relationships, safe enough where we can get that resonance. And I think this is more to the soul that you're talking about. It's like there's a connection to self.
00:28:55
Speaker
And Siegel's work, interconnection. We're connected to beyond this body. yeah And we need that relationship yeah to, I think, to really be, I think, more whole. Like it yeah it requires both.
00:29:07
Speaker
Well, and you know, most relational trauma happens in the context of a relationship. We get violated relationally.
00:29:19
Speaker
Yes. How could we heal in isolation right a relational violation? For me, the healing has to be relational also. It's a both and. both and. don't need trash the self. No.
00:29:35
Speaker
And I don't need to trash anything. the The relationship, it's a both and. Now, here's the other thing, too. And I'll say this. So there's one poll, which is like, it's all about the self.
00:29:47
Speaker
I don't agree. There's another poll that's like, let me be the corrective experience you never got. Like a lot of attachment theories focus, and AEDP does to some degree, focuses on, I will be the corrective experience for you. Mm-hmm.
00:30:06
Speaker
I don't think that is alone enough either. I'm like, let me be this corrective experience while you're here with me. Then we're both here for that part inside that holds the trauma. So for me, it really is a both and, and I'm always using myself. Like I am here with you.
00:30:31
Speaker
And ask that little boy what he needs from you and me in order to feel safe and release. Like it's a it's I'm using the client self because I've done it.
00:30:44
Speaker
You know, early on when you work with somebody with DID, dissociative identity disorder, there's very little access to their ventral self. Sure. In the beginning of treatment, it's mostly me.
00:30:56
Speaker
Yeah. They're not going to heal in the same way if it's only me. Right. And it's got to, I want to bring you in like you, because what in my view is trauma severs that self to part relationship. Yeah.
00:31:14
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. And so I want to bring that self in. Yeah. With the help of me. Yeah. Because trauma is overwhelming by definition.
00:31:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, and we and we need that support, that that relationship to say, okay. And it takes time, i think, to build because that they have to build trust with, yeah and again, with IFS, even polyvagal theory, they both work. as Part of that is like the the parts don't trust yeah If I'm the therapist, they don't trust me. I'm just another person right that could easily fail them or hurt them. yeah And their job is to question me and the client.
00:31:50
Speaker
And polyvagal theory would also say the same thing. It's like, well, maybe they're not used to a calm ventral presence. yes That could feel alarming, right? Because it's like, you can I? Totally scary. Even if it's good, it's like that could feel terrible.
00:32:03
Speaker
This is different. I'm used to a different energy. And I don't know what to do with this energy. Yeah. Right. Because it's it's foreign. And sometimes when you're in self, you're at a greater risk of being traumatized.
00:32:17
Speaker
well Because you have no all your defenses are gone. Well, and because perpetrators sniff out self. So when they see it, they want to attack it. right Here's something I want to bring up. And this is, I'm curious, I haven't talked to Deb about this. and And this is another adaptation or change that I've done in my way of thinking with IFS. And this this is where we get into the window of tolerance though. Right.
00:32:42
Speaker
OK, I'll say this. People may be like, whatever. I'm not a fan of the window of tolerance. And IFS's version is ask the part to not overwhelm.
00:32:57
Speaker
Okay, that's the IFS version of window of tolerance. Yeah. Window of tolerance is like, let's get you in a safer state so that you can process your trauma. Yeah. Here's where I have trouble with that. And this is, people only me have to agree with me, but I'm going to share this view. yeah I don't like to ask the parts that have been traumatized to regulate their emotions for the adult in the room. Mm-hmm.
00:33:25
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. What I want to say and what I do say when I'm doing this work is you traumatized part show up exactly the way you need to.
00:33:39
Speaker
And me and John, Me and Susie are going to meet you where you're at. Do you understand that? Oh, yeah. It's much like parenting. It's ah it's much it's like as my I have three children.
00:33:56
Speaker
I don't expect my but kids yes to be able to navigate their brain and emotional overwhelm. yeah My job is to say, let me meet where you are. and Yes.
00:34:07
Speaker
understand you, see you validate you, say, well I get it, and yeah calm energy, and then start to trust and say, let me, can I guide you? I don't expect them. and so That's how exactly how I envisioned it, right? That's right. That's what I mean. And so the window of tolerance is like, can me and the client show up yeah to help hold the feelings of the part? Right, exactly. Okay, not should the, can the part,
00:34:37
Speaker
regulate itself so that me and the client can handle its feelings. Do you understand? No, 100%. Yeah, yeah, we can. know yeah That's another difference that I have. And it's been, and again, it was part of my experience. I was, my,
00:34:53
Speaker
my system, there was so much trauma I held emotionally. And that it was hard for me to be with my trauma for many years. I needed to gain the capacity to be with the trauma, not have the trauma.
00:35:09
Speaker
you know, well, that's the self, right? Right. you create you and You're more an IFS master than I am. I think that's the self saying I could, I have the energy, which then those parts can trust and relax. And then maybe they want a different role. because They don't need to be so rigid. They could loosen, they could integrate, they could, yeah, at least that's I'm hearing it.
00:35:28
Speaker
That's right. And it is, and it takes in when we, when do we have people who ah have a lot of trauma, um, Their self in the beginning doesn't have the capacity to be with the trauma.
00:35:40
Speaker
So it does take time to build the capacity of the self. Yeah. To be with that, those horrific, overwhelming experiences in the ways that the parts need.
00:35:52
Speaker
And maybe at least my experience working with highly traumatized individuals too, is that even to know that there is a self. I feel like usually it's more of the exile. The the yeah wounded part is more of the the truth.
00:36:04
Speaker
And that yeah self is, what do you mean, self? like like huh They hate this, like you abandoned me you left me. you know who are we they yeah there's a there's i'm That's one of the things that's also super relation relational for me, yeah is we're repairing the relationships that have been severed internally as a result of trauma. Yeah.
00:36:27
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, beautifully said. I'm totally on on board with this. And and I'm hoping the listeners are getting a flavor here of, you know, how we can really integrate beautifully ah these models and how they complement, they expand yes ah big time. And and again, that how they evolve. Like, you know, Frank...
00:36:51
Speaker
15 years ago, whatever, versus Frank today. Yeah, that's right. And even, you know, Travis, 15 years ago, Travis, very different than what I thought was like, oh, this is the way. It's like, actually, you know, there's way more here. And there's a lot of truths in between these different models and the, and that you know, the, the,
00:37:09
Speaker
The model makers, right? They were on to something and they were majorly so. And I love, we need to give them credit. They did a ton. i mean, they were pioneers and trying to understand, know,
00:37:22
Speaker
how do we help bring healing to this? And in um I would even probably argue to their themselves, like they're probably doing their own work. um The next wave, the next wave was integration because we have to use the brilliance of the model makers and put it all together into an integrated. That's my passion right now. That is where I'm really focusing is like EMDR brilliant models. It offers a lot around processing memory, you know, sensory motorcypial therapy. Oh my God. Incredible.
00:37:54
Speaker
Like have fast brilliant. Like they all work because they all work. Yeah. And if we as clinicians and coaches and treaters, while incorporating the nervous system stuff that polyvagal theory does such a beautiful job. What if we put it all together? Because I didn't only need one model to heal. I'll tell you that. Yeah, me too.
00:38:16
Speaker
I'm with you. Right? yeah I did EMDR in my world. I do a lot of somatic work. You know, I do, oh my God, 100%. If I'm running in nature, listening to music, I'm in self-energy. I do a lot of healing out in nature. Me too. right so so We've got to put it all together. and i think that's that i Personally, I think that's the call to action for this next wave of...
00:38:42
Speaker
um Our field is to put this stuff together and integrate it. Yeah, I'm with you. And I think that's I think a lot of the work that you mentioned, Dr. Portis did and even Deb Dana that Portis is like the great, you know, I see almost the great unifier that really polyvagal theory like really incorporates all done things. It just.
00:39:03
Speaker
it just it's and it's a It's almost like a – remember when I did polyvagal theory, and i was ah I was a certified EMDR. I remember when I first trained in polyvagal theory. It just took – it went to a new depth of like, oh, okay.
00:39:19
Speaker
yeah Oh, that's what's – let me just sit there. Like my body scans became like – the whole sessions, right? Instead of just, you know, how's the body? It's like that became, i would just go deep with body scans and like while doing, you know, bylaw simulation and really enhancing the nervous system, like it just changed it. And it it really saw the powerful work of learning how to listen to the, the, the, the rhythm of the nervous system.
00:39:44
Speaker
Um, Cause you know, if it if that's overriding everything, you know, that's gonna, that nervous system is gonna nine, 9.9 times out of 10. I can't compete with that. So I got to understand it and listen to it and ride the waves. Okay. Where are we here? And, and not only were the clients, where am I right now?
00:40:02
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's some of the parts work I've done with my own stuff is like doing my own parts work with myself. Am I in my part? Am I doing this? And, How do I stay and be aware of that and not shame it, but understand and listen? So you know as we kind of wrap up, I'm wondering, you know, if they want if other clinicians and or non-clinicians, coaches or people listening, does they want to find your work or be more interested in this kind of integrative work that yeah Frank Anderson is doing?
00:40:31
Speaker
Where can we find you? How do we listen, watch, consume, et cetera? That's great. Yes. Thank you. um So, and I am filming a lot of new content now. This is really my focus right now. And I've got a new book.
00:40:43
Speaker
I'm working on a new book deal of how to bring integrated trauma treatment to the general public. Like that is my next project for sure. probably wet, like I'm on all those social media handles, right? I, Instagram's probably the most popular place for me around social media, even though I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on,
00:41:03
Speaker
YouTube. because I'm on, um, I don't even know all the names that I'm on Tic Tac, but it's Instagram is Frey underscore Anderson MD. And you know, if you want to follow, take my courses and get my newsletter and find out where I'm teaching all over the place is really my website.
00:41:23
Speaker
which is frankandersonmd.com. And I send out a monthly newsletter. I do a ton, I'm doing a bunch of courses now. I'm filming a lot of my own courses, which are more integrative in this way, incorporating the benefits of IFS and EMDR, all that stuff to teach people how to do this differently.
00:41:43
Speaker
um You know, it was, I'm going to say one thing before we close this. I was, I remember this moment, this was, talk about, moment of change. um i was there the first time Stephen Porges showed up in our field because Bessel invited him to his trauma conference, 1995, I believe it was. And I was at the trauma conference. i was like, there is this guy. He's like this basic science, lovely human being.
00:42:09
Speaker
And it was like a game changer. I was there in the moment that he presented it, which was so cool to be a part of that history. yeah And now look where it's come. Stephen helped us define dissociation and shutdown and hypoarousal in a way that we didn't know. yeah We knew hyperarousal.
00:42:27
Speaker
We knew sympathetic activation. But he's brought so much to the field in a way that's been a game changer. So it was kind of cool as one of the older people yeah to be there at the moment it happened.
00:42:39
Speaker
Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a moment of history to see it to like the moment of history. And also to it's like you said, see it unfold over the past 30 years, 30 years. Right. i mean, Right, and and I know Dev Dana was there and same thing. was ah It was like, this is different. And it really moved from you know pathologizing yeah to this is this is just essentially the nervous system trying to do its job to protect self and to survive. It's not pathology, right? And so my hope too is that as we move away from some of the pathology that some of our field, and and again, I think the history of psychology is
00:43:16
Speaker
long before, you know, therapy was invented. You know, this goes back to the philosophers, right? Really study the soul, right? Psychology yeah way back. My hope is that we're coming full circle with now some of the new tech and science and awareness of scans that we can now see it and kind of connect to some deeper level versus being all pathology. But like, it's about healing and connection and relationship and you know, loving self and loving others and bringing harmony. Like that's ah mission that I'm about. i know the Institute's about, and we all know that Frank Anderson's about. And so those that are listening, ah if you want to learn more, definitely go to our website, PVI, go to Frank Anderson's site. Everything's clickable in the comp, the links below.
00:44:04
Speaker
I'll be there. um Please reach out and have a great day, Frank. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for having me. This was a great conversation. I really appreciate it. Yeah.
00:44:16
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Wired for Connection, a Polyvagal podcast. This show is produced by the Polyvagal Institute, an international nonprofit organization dedicated to creating a safer and more connected world.
00:44:31
Speaker
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00:44:43
Speaker
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00:44:54
Speaker
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00:45:07
Speaker
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