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Applying Polyvagal Theory in Therapy with Ruby Jo Walker, LCSW
443 Plays6 hours ago
In this episode of Wired for Connection: A Polyvagal Podcast, we discuss applying Polyvagal Theory and polyvagal principles in a therapeutic setting.
Stephanie D'Angelo, from Polyvagal Institute, moderates a discussion with Ruby Jo Walker, LCSW. Ruby Jo has been applying PVT in therapy with clients for almost 15 years now, and has been a therapist working with those who have experienced trauma for over thirty years.
Ruby Jo is a PVI Course Partner, teaching the course "Clinical Applications of Polyvagal Theory." Learn more about our courses at: learning.polyvagal.org.
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Transcript
Introduction to Polyvagal Theory in Therapy
00:00:00
Speaker
I feel like it is. i mean, i I just feel so lucky to have been exposed to polyvagal theory so early. i feel so grateful to Steve about it because it's literally changed everything. I am not the therapist I was 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago.
00:00:19
Speaker
it has really changed everything I do and it informs every intervention I have with the client. So it is, you know, kind of in me through and through. Just, I love it.
00:00:30
Speaker
Welcome back to Wired for Connection, a polyvagal podcast. My name is Mac, I'm with the Polyvagal Institute, and I'm here to introduce a special episode featuring a conversation on applying polyvagal theory in therapy.
00:00:45
Speaker
In this episode, Stephanie D'Angelo, PVI's Director of Organizational Training, interviews Ruby Jo Walker. Ruby Jo Walker is a seasoned therapist and trainer with over 30 years of experience in the neurobiology of trauma and resilience.
00:01:01
Speaker
An expert in polyvagal theory and certified in somatic experiencing and Hakomi mindfulness therapy, She has trained thousands of professionals across healthcare, care behavioral health, and trauma support organizations.
00:01:15
Speaker
She is the founder of Post Traumatic Growth Somatic Therapy and Southwest Trauma Training Services, blending advanced somatic approaches with applied polyvagal theory.
00:01:29
Speaker
As we continue expanding Wired for Connection, we would love to hear from you. What kinds of episodes are you interested in What topics would you like us to cover? Share your thoughts in the comments on Spotify or YouTube and join our community space at learning.polyvagal.org by creating a new free account.
00:01:48
Speaker
Thank you for listening.
Interview with Ruby Jo Walker on Trauma and Resilience
00:01:49
Speaker
Here's Stephanie and Ruby Jo. Hey, Ruby Jo. ah Good to see you. It's good to see your face. Yeah. We end up talking on the phone a lot.
00:02:00
Speaker
you So it's so nice to see you. And it's so great to have the opportunity to be here in this way and talk with you and get to share a little bit about you. Yeah, well, I always enjoy our conversations and your support. So thank you.
00:02:20
Speaker
It's really exciting for me for you to be ah hosting your first course. at PVI that launched in September and then the the next part of the course, which we'll talk about later on oh But I really feel like it would be great for our community to get to know you a little bit um and share a little bit about your background. I know that you've been a therapist for over 30 years. You've seen just thousands of clients.
00:02:51
Speaker
I've had the privilege of watching you train ah We've been to Buffalo, been to Louisiana, um did a training together there for human services, just It's been quite ah a really amazing thing for me to watch you in action as a trainer, but tell us a little bit about you, your background as a therapist, like what got you into it? Just maybe you want to share a little bit about that and the populations that you serve, because you have some really amazing areas of expertise that people might not know about.
00:03:27
Speaker
Yeah, well, um I've been working with trauma for i'm right at 35 years. And so all along, it was like, how do you actually get more and more effective?
00:03:38
Speaker
What do you do? What's going to make clients really get better? And when I first learned polyvagal theory, which was pretty close to 19 years ago, it's like, um my gosh. there is something here.
00:03:50
Speaker
But at that time, it was like hearing Steve at a conference. There were no really books out. There were some, you know, some papers, but there wasn't a lot of information. So even before books came out, I hired someone to tutor me just for a couple sessions, just to really help me understand kind of the role of the vagus nerve, the stuff that Steve was talking about back then and the States and all of that.
00:04:13
Speaker
And um then when his book came out, I hired another tutor. And we would meet and literally go through page by page because that book was a lot of papers. There was a crossover. So the terms started getting familiar, but it was kind of clunky learning.
00:04:29
Speaker
And so immediately for me, this was like, okay, this is like my thing. And how do I bring this to therapy? So that's really what I started thinking about then was how do I make this really useful in therapy? This is so important. It kind of felt like everything, really.
00:04:48
Speaker
So you really learned from the original papers and the, but you know, watching him. at it Were you live at that conference where you saw him speak? Oh, yes.
00:04:58
Speaker
The live at the first conference? Yes. And then I started just buying... any program where he was speaking, it didn't matter if it was 10 minutes, I'd buy the program because like, I just want to hear, I want him, I want to keep listening to him talk.
00:05:12
Speaker
That's all I want to do is keep hearing him talk. Just keep talking, Steve. So sometimes it would only be like a 15 minute, but it would be like, okay, you know, I'm getting this. So, yeah.
00:05:22
Speaker
Yeah. yeah And some of your background was with, is with somatic experiencing, And also like Hakomi Institute, did they use polyvagal theory in their teaching at the time when you were training with them?
Blending Polyvagal Theory with Other Modalities
00:05:36
Speaker
um Hakomi Institute did not, but they were the one who brought him with Pat Ogden and Sensory Motor brought him to, I think it was Boulder, was the training where I first heard him speak before any of his books were out.
00:05:51
Speaker
And so they were really recognized the importance of it back then. And so I got certified in that and then and went on to get somatic experiencing. The Somatic Experiencing, Peter Levine, the founder of that, and Steve were in dialogue.
00:06:06
Speaker
So there were conversations already going on. e SE was just learning it. So there was only one um a couple people who really knew it and got it when I did SE. And that is the person that I had to my tutoring.
00:06:19
Speaker
He was really a twig wheeler. And um he was ah really on top of it. He has a lot of biology in his background. So he could start making concepts really simple.
00:06:30
Speaker
And so he was very instrumental in my journey um and just even beginning to understand it. um Yeah. Yeah. So you really were at the the the beginning of this being applied into therapy, you were kind of taking your own path and you got people that you could find in your world that were experts in it in Colorado.
00:06:55
Speaker
Well just him, just this one person. There wasn't people who were experts so I was trying to do anything from Steve I could and then this tutoring initially with Twig and occasionally I'd meet with him and kind of say okay like I'm understanding this now or because I immediately started teaching um polyvagal theory just to anybody really like I went to a trauma conference for medical professionals and then some CMEs for physicians And then started moving it into therapy.
00:07:24
Speaker
So what I started doing is I started just learning as much as I could about anything it related to therapy. Some of the greats out there, Dan Siegel, Rick Hansen, Pat Ogden. And then what I would do is go, okay, if I was to apply polyvagal theory to whatever they're talking about, what's that going to look like?
00:07:46
Speaker
And then that became really my, that was like my ah my path in. It was like, how do I integrate this? Because polyvagal theory, I think to everybody who learns it, we just feel like it's so intuitively accurate. It has such a resonance with everybody, really.
00:08:01
Speaker
And so for me, then the path was, okay, how do I apply this in therapy? And then that's what I really started developing, you know, about 15 years ago. So you started bringing it into therapy based on all of your knowledge from all these different great teachers and great modalities that you had been trained in.
00:08:21
Speaker
So then you actually kind of evolved it a little bit and created something that is a little bit different, which I've been around the polyvagal world about, I'm going to say about, you know, 12 years or so.
00:08:36
Speaker
It yeah feels a little bit ah different, like an evolution and and because I've had the pleasure of watching you teach this. um How would you say, what would you say that ah is different about what you're teaching as this aside from co-regulation, which all therapists are Really striving for that co-regulation.
00:08:57
Speaker
Can you share a little bit about that? Yeah,
Training the Nervous System and Therapy Maps
00:09:00
Speaker
I would say I have like an integrationist approach because I brought in different kinds of, you know, other folks and then looked at it like, okay, what are we trying to change here?
00:09:09
Speaker
So my thing began to be, okay, what if every session you look at deactivating the nervous system? And nervous systems are actually all different. So they all need something, they need different kinds of interventions.
00:09:22
Speaker
And so co-regulation is great and it will only take a system so far. And there's some clients that that is a big piece of the work, but they're going to have limits in their ability to even do co-regulation.
00:09:36
Speaker
So you have to have some other kinds of things. So I started really looking at just deactivation in general and all the ways that happens. And so Hakomi gave me a great developmental wounding and and Essie just gave me sort of trauma.
00:09:52
Speaker
So I started blending this in with Dan Siegel and Rick Hansen. They're kind of like my main... people I think that I've pulled from and um what I started doing with that is looking at the idea of training the nervous system.
00:10:07
Speaker
So all of our clients come to us in red and yellow and what we want to do is start creating that portal of ah from arousal to deactivation to the green zone physiology.
00:10:19
Speaker
And so what I found is that when you start teaching the nervous system about these pathways, you're literally training it. You're creating a new template.
00:10:30
Speaker
That is a game changer for clients. So using polyvagal theory, I feel more effective than I ever have um in my entire career because what's happening is people are getting bigger results and deeper. And this is just the power of bottom-up work, but polyvagal bottom-up work to me even takes it further.
00:10:53
Speaker
So you're creating cues of safety, but you would do you been you were doing that even when you didn't know about polyvagal theory because- that's your therapeutic relationship foundational work.
00:11:04
Speaker
And that's common in in every kind of therapy, right? Absolutely. But when I looked at your ah polyvagal trauma chart and it had the deactivation pathways and the the the and you name about 10 of them, I think, um yeah it looks like a very so there's very specific maps There are. And so I do have what I call the three maps of treatment that are part of the nervous system. And the first one is general nervous system functioning.
00:11:34
Speaker
And so that's where we're just kind of noticing what the state is. um You know, we're watching what the body is doing, the posture, the voice, all the things that are cues about um it indications of state.
00:11:46
Speaker
Then there is co-reation ah co-regulation capacity. So I'm tracking in the session what that is like, both between us as well as what are they telling me about their world?
00:11:58
Speaker
Like where is this system, like what's going on there? And then the next category is limiting core beliefs. So all three of those things will dysregulate the nervous system.
00:12:10
Speaker
So what happens is if you're more effective with the map, you know, general nervous system functioning, co-regulation capacity, um or limiting core beliefs, what happens is you're just so much faster in therapy. There is not a one size fits all with nervous systems, but those broadly include really any intervention you're going be doing with the client.
00:12:35
Speaker
So even if you're trained in like CBT and then you're like, and then you notice the cognitive distortions, you might, that might be the thing that pops out at you. And that's kind of, it gives you actually a map for the therapist to look the map of the nervous system of the person that you're with.
00:12:53
Speaker
That's right. Thank you. That's exactly what it is. So it becomes a way for the therapist to begin to, in their attunement with the client, where is this system stuck?
00:13:04
Speaker
Yeah. You know, as an example, like in inan anxiety, somebody could have anxiety because they went through a trauma and their nervous system never came down as a result of having thwarted impulses.
00:13:17
Speaker
They didn't get to do what they wanted to do. They wanted to leave. They wanted to fight, whatever that is. That would be one example. Someone could have anxiety from co-regulation issues.
00:13:29
Speaker
They have a nervous system that was never soothed. So that is a different thing. then it could also be they have a pressure to always be perfect or not make mistakes or you know um ah prove themselves, that any kind of developmental wounding and belief.
00:13:48
Speaker
So the nervous system can be stuck really in these different ways. So when you begin to see it that way, you can kind of hone in on what's gonna be most effective for the client.
00:13:59
Speaker
So I see it as sort of short cutting therapy You know, meaning things can change more quickly. And that's, of course, also because of the bottom up, you know, we're really shifting the physiology in every session. That's my goal to have a deactivation of some sort in every session.
00:14:17
Speaker
I have actually witnessed that with my own eyes, having had the privilege of videoing some of the demos for your for your courses and. find that quite amazing because I've seen demos before and and people doing this kind of therapy before different kinds of therapy actually.
00:14:35
Speaker
um I'm not a therapist, but I'm fascinated in the therapy world and I've found it quite amazing to not
Post-Traumatic Growth Somatic Therapy
00:14:44
Speaker
only watch but see the interactions after the cameras are off and then really the feedback is that they feel different. And this is one thing that really fascinates me about your work is that it looks like an avenue where lasting change can happen because you are, you're giving the nervous system, as you said, a new template.
00:15:10
Speaker
That's right. so And the other piece is, is that with clients now, unlike ear at my earlier years, I did not give homework much. I do now. Because what we know is nervous system and brain change require some attention. It doesn't actually need a whole lot.
00:15:25
Speaker
Like, um you know, I think Rick Hansen talks or maybe Linda Graham that it's 10 to 20 seconds, 10 to 20 times a day. So we're talking about 100 to 400 seconds a day. So I will usually see what's really key in each session and say, I'd love you to just try and practice this.
00:15:43
Speaker
Take 10 to 15 seconds just to begin to, you know, whatever it is, whether it's a, you know, a movement, um you know, is some, you know, imagination thing, a, you know, a reparative experience, and then have them really work on embodying that.
00:16:00
Speaker
Because embodiment, as you know, through polyvagal theory, that has really significant kinds of changes that can happen. And I hear you say the word work, but um having like been around this, you really um are encouraging people not to work too hard. Oh, absolutely. Yes. work With the subtleties of the nervous system.
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah. I think you're, you're talking about the idea of Oftentimes, our most skilled clients are going to come in and they're going to be doing these great management techniques that have gotten them through.
00:16:37
Speaker
Now, what happens is a lot of these management technique techniques actually require sympathetic arousal. They require effort. So what I'm trying to do is set that aside in a session.
00:16:49
Speaker
to get to what might be underneath that so that we can get more effective. So you are right. i am trying to remove work. What I'm really talking about when I was saying the work was I want them to to practice whatever we've done so that we can change more quickly.
00:17:05
Speaker
ah But again, low time commitment. And your ability to see in that session when they're working too hard and you're actually like guiding them, can we soften that?
00:17:16
Speaker
Can we, you know, really, it's really impressive actually to watch. i i I'm in awe about this this work and and have been lucky enough to receive that um from from a ah ah trained, and what would you call it?
00:17:35
Speaker
What is this therapy that you're doing? What do you call it? Well, I'm just, well, I call it post-traumatic growth somatic therapy, but I'm broadened it to just simply it's it's the clinical applications of polyvagal theory because it's, you know, it's, ah but for some people that will be post-traumatic growth.
00:17:54
Speaker
Yeah. because you can create the template for that to happen. So we don't know who's going to have post-traumatic growth, but what we can do is create the conditions and the conditions are a regulated nervous system and the ability to hold positive sensation.
00:18:12
Speaker
And so those two conditions really lead to that as a possibility. And so we always want to just hold who knows who can really expand. We don't know. Yeah. yeah One really interesting thing also that I noticed, and I hope it's okay if i've if I go go with this, is that your work, when I'm watching ah these trainings, or I'm in the training actually, um or helping to facilitate a training, I noticed that the focus isn't just completely on what you can do for the client, that you are always, as a trainer, even tracking yourself. Yeah.
00:18:54
Speaker
conveying how the therapist can track their own nervous system while they are trying to track someone else's nervous system. And you have like steps that you have to help support the scaffolding of that, the the foundational stability of them.
00:19:13
Speaker
being able to do these multiple things at one time. What is that like? um That's just so fun. so one of the things I feel like is happening really in trainings is to me, there's a parallel process of what I'm really trying to do is move the client help the client move into their true essence, which is kind of who they are without conditioning and nervous system dysregulation all the time.
00:19:38
Speaker
And I'm also trying to do the same for the therapist. So when we are our true selves, we actually send more of a signal of safety in the way that authenticity sends a signal of safety.
00:19:50
Speaker
And we simply have more presence. So I really don't want people to do exactly everything I do. I want them to find their way that's actually about them. There's ah so much power in that.
00:20:03
Speaker
And so in in every training I do, I'm always encouraging a self-reflection process and then um gentle um exploration of, their own expansion, just seeing whatever's right for them. There's no pressure. Nobody has to do what doesn't feel right.
00:20:19
Speaker
But really looking at, you know, we can expand
Therapist's Role in Nervous System Regulation
00:20:22
Speaker
too. And the quick because the more we know ourselves and the more we work with our own nervous system, we actually are more present.
00:20:30
Speaker
That is when we get these really strong and indicators and cues. We pick up more of what's going on with the client. So it's less, let me see if I understand this, less about learning techniques and, and more about cultivating our own presence so that we can use our gifts two to see and be able to track. ah really That's really foundational to your work, is it not?
00:20:58
Speaker
It is, but that people are learning techniques. So there are real techniques that are always part of it that are about, we are we do have a goal to begin to train the nervous system to have access to green zone physiology.
00:21:11
Speaker
That is the work. And that is what will train and teach and shift the nervous system. so So that's a piece of it. But there is a whole um you know parallel process of our work with ourselves.
00:21:27
Speaker
So that development is foundational, but you are walking away with skills that you could use tomorrow. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah.
00:21:39
Speaker
It's so fun. I mean, for me, I'm just so excited because I feel like um I just love watching, feeling more effective and helping people more because I feel like I can help them more quickly.
00:21:52
Speaker
um I think that they feel the sort of the beauty of, with maybe if we're not even talking about polyvagal theory, they feel the beauty of how all responses are seen as non-pathologizing and adaptations. And that's immediately sends a signal of safety to the client, even if that's never spoken. It sometimes is spoken, but even if it's not, people get that.
00:22:14
Speaker
And that that creates that safety, you know, really a lot more quickly then. especially with the authenticity, um like highlighting the authenticity. and And I know we've had this conversation before about how that helps to be able to feel your the impulses, the intuition, really. I'm saying intuition, but I know that it helps restore impulses. And I know that that's a big part of this work.
00:22:45
Speaker
It really is. And again, if we go back to the three maps. So if you think of like just nervous system, general nervous system functioning impulses to do self protection impulses to set boundaries impulses to really find ways to take care of self and get interoception to help us know Right. What our impulses are, what's going to actually regulate our nervous system.
00:23:09
Speaker
And then in the co-regulation capacity, you know, if things have gone well, we reach out to others. We're in connection. We feel safe. We develop community. And so that's an area to restore.
00:23:22
Speaker
and then limiting core beliefs, if we feel that there's no support in the world, we might stay kind of alone. Or if we feel that we never get to have any power, we may hide our voice.
00:23:34
Speaker
And so, you know, with any developmental wounding, there is an impulse that also gets thwarted. So we are trying to restore that. And when that happens, regulation naturally follows.
00:23:47
Speaker
You know, one of the things that the Institute so great at, and it's such a sincere ask, and I've seen it in every single class I've gone to, is the Institute is great at saying, follow your biology. They really support camera on, camera off, do what you want, participate, option, whatever.
00:24:06
Speaker
And, you know, I always tell my groups, this is so sincere. you know, this this this is foundational because following the impulses will lead to regulation. That is so core. And there's such a, I love that Polyvagal Institute, they are so strong on that. The whole institute, every single thing I've attended, that's a fundamental part of interacting with people. And that is that recognition of following impulses, we stay in regulation.
00:24:36
Speaker
So if we're off on camera and we don't want to be, our body's going to amp up. We're really forced into participating and you know we don't want to. There's going to be physiology's threat.
00:24:48
Speaker
Wonderful. So Ruby Jo, when people ask, ah polyvagal theory is the science of safety and connection. And i you know we've heard that so many times and that's
Compassionate Living through Polyvagal Theory
00:25:00
Speaker
what it is.
00:25:00
Speaker
But I really feel like your work is like an evolution of that because it not only has these applications in therapy, in therapeutic settings, these clinical applications for the therapist, but because it actually affects the therapist also, the like you talk about developmental wounding of the client, but you're also like talking about the developmental wounding of the person in connection with them, which is the therapist.
00:25:30
Speaker
That's right. That's right. It really feels like there's an evolution here. It's just moving the needle a little bit in that direction. If you were to, you know, define polyvagal theory is the science of safety and connection and.
00:25:50
Speaker
And it's an opportunity to, well, so first of all, it the one the biggest and for me is it brings compassion to all all presentations. And so it brings a humanness.
00:26:01
Speaker
And then as a therapist, it brings an opportunity to work on another level to shift physiology to safety for more full hearted living.
00:26:12
Speaker
And so when we have that full heart of living, we're in our essence. We're following our impulses. We're living in a you know heart-centered, fulfilled way.
00:26:23
Speaker
That's what I feel like it does. It leads to higher quality living. So because of the non-pathologizing, it's more humanizing. That's right. That's right. When I come in and I say, i have an autoimmune disease and I'm this and I'm that. You're not your disease.
00:26:40
Speaker
Yes. it You're looking basically, you're taking in that information, but you're looking basically like, what is that nervous system doing? Yeah. The other piece is a big bias in my work is I am looking for everything that's right.
00:26:56
Speaker
So I'm actively looking for what's right. So I am actively listening for ah client's resilience. So even even without saying it, clients feel the energy of that.
00:27:08
Speaker
And so I do that with therapists too. I'm looking for what's going well. And in a this is not any kind of Pollyanna experience. It's that I want that integrated.
00:27:20
Speaker
The more people integrate what's going well, the more they have capacity and they they move closer to the green zone. um We hard on ourselves. We can be our own worst enemy.
00:27:32
Speaker
And so I feel like there is something about that that just feels so good as a clinician and as the client that, you know, it really creates just sort of a loveliness in the interaction.
00:27:46
Speaker
um I sometimes say we need to be a detective. for what's going right. we We listen closely. So everything the client's saying, I'm listening for.
00:27:57
Speaker
What about it? This is brilliant. What about this is resilient and that and I go towards that. And that seems very it's I've I've been to many therapists in my lifetime um and it seems very different. I love that you highlight that I've seen you do that in multiple um in all of them, actually.
00:28:21
Speaker
it's something that you land on before you move forward. You really establish as a foundational um stability that there is something to be ah appreciated here or, and it isn't, it doesn't seem Pollyanna to me when, when you see it, you're like, oh yeah, that's skillful.
00:28:41
Speaker
Yeah. It is very real. And i like that you picked up on, it is foundational. Yeah. So I want to start there because I'm always going to start with helping the client have some access to regulation before we get to any of the hard stuff.
00:28:58
Speaker
And so so some of it is they already know about their dysregulation. yeah Right. So they that they're used to living there. So what I want to start right out of the gate is finding where we can get regulation.
00:29:10
Speaker
And they're going to tell me about it. They're going to say, um you know, um I had this really tough time at work and boy, it was so hard. And, you know, I did reach out to my friend afterwards and was talking. That definitely felt better. I'll say, so just kind of take a moment.
00:29:28
Speaker
Just sort of feel that you you you went and checked in with your friends. Feel your own like capacity, like you're working towards your own regulation.
00:29:38
Speaker
Like you reached out, like you have a history that has not been easy to do, but you did. What's that like to just take in? um you know and there's there's literally thousands and thousands of examples.
00:29:51
Speaker
um of whatever the client has going on to kind of listen to, you know, listen for. I look at that as literally like priming the pump for the for the positive. It's like, you're just like, oh, this is a possibility. we we could go over here and this could happen, but this is here too, this and.
00:30:11
Speaker
It's the end. Thank you. That's exactly what it is. It really is the end. And I love that you picked up on that. I do think it primes the pump because it starts having the system begin to look at um not just what the negativity bias has us look at, but what's actually going well. It's so many times under their awareness and they're a little shocked and they're going, oh Yeah, I guess I did do that.
00:30:35
Speaker
um We're not great as humans at always noticing what our strengths are and what we're doing well. We tend to focus in on what we're not doing well. That's that negativity bias.
00:30:48
Speaker
And so it becomes in this whole way to shift things to have the client begin to get, um oh, yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's unintegrated.
00:31:01
Speaker
I heard this, um there's a phrase um that I heard in my somatic experiencing training, um and they said trauma is an integrated resources.
00:31:12
Speaker
And it was, think Steve Hoskinson actually said it in the training, but it's part of somatic experiencing. And so in many ways, then you're wanting to listen for what's not integrated, what's not integrated.
00:31:25
Speaker
And as you begin to bring that in, that's what shifts the physiology. Yeah, so integration would be ah like a definition of mental wellness, right?
00:31:38
Speaker
Dan Siegel says, he says, when we have integration, so when something's a part of us, um you know, Yvonne Dolan had this saying that I also love. She talked about the goal of trauma is to have it gently walk beside us.
00:31:51
Speaker
We're not tripping on it. we're not It's not nipping at our heels. And so that to me is integration. It is part of us. It's right there with us, but it's not like stealing the show. It's not like, you know, we're we're tripping, we're getting, you bitten the heels like, yeah. Like a black box opens, like Pandora's box and and that's it.
00:32:14
Speaker
But yeah, yeah. i love I love how you leave space um for the and for companioning with yes what is and like Rick Hansen talks about the negativity right like it's like negativity is velcro and ah positivity is like Teflon we just can't seem to like take it in He's been a very key person for me.
00:32:42
Speaker
So I have really studied his work, love his work, and it's been a big influence. And that's actually really, if that's in a lot of my book too. i have followed him and it's to me part of um finding access to the green zone.
00:32:56
Speaker
So if we are in, you know, when we shift our state to, you know, a more positive state, we're having access to the green zone. we have that safety again. And
Upcoming Book and Future Insights
00:33:07
Speaker
that's what it creates. So he doesn't talk about it in exactly that way, but it is what's happening. So yeah, I love i love his work.
00:33:15
Speaker
Me too. i am He's a wonderful man. Also, I had the opportunity to meet him. He's like incredible. Tell me a little bit about this book that you're, it's due out the summer of 2026. Is that? It is. It's called,
00:33:28
Speaker
it is it's called um Polyvagal Theory Applied to Post-Traumatic Growth and Resilience, a Clinician's Guide. Very exciting. Can't wait for that to come out. Tell us little bit about it.
00:33:42
Speaker
um Well, it really talks about, it goes into the foundation of polyvagal theory and then how to apply it in therapy. It covers things from like, you know, attunement, understanding the maps of the nervous system, a lot of the stuff we're talking about, how to provide deactivation. and then there's also work with the therapist um All through the book, in every chapter, there's ways that therapists can work with themselves on some of their own kind of core stuff.
00:34:08
Speaker
And then the book ends with that, too, is um working, you know, the therapist finding more ways for their own expansion. Because what I always say is when we expand, we simply get more present.
00:34:21
Speaker
And so if you sort of think of when we're caught in our stuff, and that's normal, like we're all going to have that. That's kind of part of being a therapist. You're using your human vessel. So that's ah a piece of it.
00:34:32
Speaker
But what happens is when you really work with your stuff or when your stuff is going on, you aren't as present with the client.
00:34:42
Speaker
It's not a judgment. It's just sort of what happens. And so we want to find more ways to expand that. How do we um really make that understood that we're moving through this activation and deactivation all the time? Therapists, clients, every single human being, this is the way that we are designed with this autonomic flexibility. And this idea came about a long time ago that, you know, we always have to be in ventral. Could you speak to that a little bit?
00:35:15
Speaker
Well, I'm happy that you're bringing that up because I really like to normalize with therapists that simply that's not going to happen. yeah You know, we're, we bring our human selves. This is just, we can't do that.
00:35:26
Speaker
What we can do though, is learn to have a foothold in green. So I can have something going on with me. i might, you know, that's in my way.
00:35:37
Speaker
And then i can in the session, find a way to have a foothold in green. It might be breath. It might be a mantra to myself. It might be, you know, working with my own nervous system in some way that the client wouldn't see, um you know, sort of tensing my hands or, you know, whatever that might be.
00:35:56
Speaker
it might be um like and a common one. And I learned this from a great Hakomi teacher is um one of my things was having to be prove my worth when I was a young therapist and always wanting to be effective.
00:36:10
Speaker
And so one of my great teachers taught me, dr Phil DePrince, said nothing to fix, nothing to do, nothing to fix. Nothing to do, nothing to fix.
00:36:21
Speaker
So as I would say that, my whole nervous system would go, oh okay. So I could get myself back into presence with the client again. So the goal is not to never have it come up.
00:36:35
Speaker
The real goal is to learn to manage it in session. That's what we want. And so we want to be gentle and kind about it, you know, not judge judgment. And so I think we need to just normalize it. So I try to talk about it all in my trainings and even anything I've struggled with, because I think people need to get it's almost like this myth. You shouldn't get your you're always regulated.
00:36:59
Speaker
And so we're not. And so just to kind of normalize learning to, you know, work with ourselves is really the key thing. And so like right now in the course, what i just this week, what was really cool was watching people really own things they were struggling with in such a healthy way.
00:37:17
Speaker
Because, you know, when we do that, that's how we open the door to, okay, what can I do to help me get more present? It's very sweet. Yeah. And it, I think the not thinking it's a character flaw because you're working with people and then you're, you know, having a little, you know, I rushed to get here. I missed my appointment, something like that, where I need to know that it's autonomic flexibility that I, that helps me get in. Okay. Now we're going to,
00:37:48
Speaker
We're going to take a moment. You know how sometimes we'll take a moment at the beginning of a meeting, let's say. We'll do that at PVI. We'll take a moment. We'll, you know, just to get us present in the room so we can observe, so I can know, oh, I'm a little mobilized.
00:38:02
Speaker
Okay, I might take that breath or push my feet into the floor or do whatever I'm going to do. Yeah. ah Yeah. yeah And really getting that autonomic flexibility actually is connected to do we have a portal into green? Yeah.
00:38:18
Speaker
It only happens if we have that. Autonomic flexibility isn't as I'm always red and yellow. i like that's not flexibility it's really that's why this work is so important because we're training the nervous system so in the end we create autonomic flexibility because the nervous system has learned a new pattern it has learned how to touch into the green zone that is a game changer what i say is you have a different life if your body is doing autonomic flexibility so although we don't want to stress constantly be green
00:38:51
Speaker
We do want to say, find a portal to stay, you know, work with it so that your body can learn to have more of that movement.
00:39:02
Speaker
And that's a new template for, or a template for the therapist. That's right. They navigate that they learn. And then now they know it in their body, which makes it easier for them to work with clients notice when they're, they might be, uh,
00:39:18
Speaker
you know, whatever, all the wonderful skills that you teach, you know, you're more able to see it when you're not in defense. when And I'm not i'm not thinking thinking a certain way because that's the way I'm thinking. I'm able to be more present. That's what you're saying, right?
00:39:35
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. So again, it's why that parallel path is so important. We work with ourselves and we learn the skills and we work with ourselves and we ah work on the skills.
00:39:45
Speaker
so that we just keep showing up and picking up more um of what's actually happening. Yeah. It is life-changing, I think. Yeah, well, I feel like it is. i mean, i I just feel so lucky to have been exposed to polyvagal theory so early. i feel so grateful to Steve about it because it's literally changed everything. I am not the therapist I was 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago.
00:40:13
Speaker
it has really changed everything I do and it informs every intervention I have with the client. So it is, you know, kind of in me through and through. Just, I love it.
00:40:24
Speaker
and i And it shows really, and I feel so lucky to have been exposed to your work because it actually has changed me. i have really been paying attention since I think we were in Buffalo in and bro um since I've had the opportunity to really be exposed to your work it has changed me and my work and how I approach things and I have really really like learned a lot bottom up learned a lot you know about how to be of service and how I can really be grounded when maybe I you know had some freeze going on and noticing that freeze and then noticing that when I got a little more mobilized that that was actually progress.
00:41:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, it's a freeze and use that. So really, really amazing, incredible work. um And you're now teaching ah the part one of the clinical applications for the Polyvagal Institute.
00:41:24
Speaker
What is part two going to look like? Part two is going to be more advanced techniques. So what they're learning in part one, they're learning what I'm doing every single day they're great skills.
00:41:35
Speaker
So they learn about, they learn all about like presence, attunement, tracking self and all of that. And then they're learning four very strong, um you know, techniques.
00:41:46
Speaker
And then there will be more advanced techniques in the second part. We do more of the developmental wounding and more work with, um, you know, the nervous system functioning that happens after, you know, the protective um motor plans of action that did not get complete, thwarted impulses around in trauma situations.
00:42:06
Speaker
So it's going to be pretty cool. Yeah. And lots of opportunity for them to practice with each other. Absolutely. So practice, I think, is really key. So we always have some sort of a practice.
00:42:19
Speaker
And from here on out, we've just had our first two classes. There will be some practices, i i think, in every single class because we want those skills to really to feel comfortable.
00:42:31
Speaker
um So, yeah, the practice is really important. And then there's the community where they could talk about it if they wanted to, which is really nice to have that. connected that learning management system to connect the community.
00:42:45
Speaker
Really awesome. So thank you so much, Ruby Jo, for spending this time talking with me. always fun to talk to you, Stephanie. I love to be able to do um our trainings together. And i've love that I get to host your session.
00:43:04
Speaker
I look forward to seeing you at the gathering the uh in florida this year um that's going be wonderful yeah and um do you have anything to ah to leave us with if i was going to ask you where do you see the evolution of polyvagal theory in in clinical applications in therapy what would what would be your vision what would you like to see me You know, it's probably what we're talking about. It's really about how much you really can change your nervous system with the right techniques and that that's really out there. And then also sort of the path of working with yourself as a clinician and really understanding the power of that in terms of your effectiveness and your own wholeness.
00:43:57
Speaker
So think, yeah. Yeah, so post-traumatic growth and resilience for everyone, for the therapist and the client.
Conclusion and Further Resources
00:44:06
Speaker
That's right, that's right. Thank you for listening to Wired for Connection, a Polyvagal podcast. This show is produced by the Polyvagal Institute, an international nonprofit organization dedicated to creating a safer and more connected world.
00:44:20
Speaker
PVI provides education, resources, and community to those interested in learning more about polyvagal theory and applying polyvagal principles in personal and professional contexts.
00:44:31
Speaker
To learn more about Polyvagal Theory and other offerings, visit us at polyvagal.org, where you can join our online community space and access our free learning library.
00:44:42
Speaker
You'll also find information about upcoming courses and community events. Connect with us on social media. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, TikTok, and YouTube.
00:44:54
Speaker
Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next time.