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Stimulating the Vagus Nerve Naturally with Dr. Arielle Schwartz
604 Plays2 days ago
In this episode of “Wired for Connection,” host Travis welcomes Dr. Arielle Schwartz, a clinical psychologist and expert in somatic psychology, to talk about the natural ways to stimulate the vagus nerve for physical, mental, and emotional health. Dr. Schwartz shares her professional journey—beginning with her personal experience with yoga and anxiety—and how this path led to her deep dive into polyvagal theory and natural mind-body therapies for trauma recovery. Together, they discuss accessible, practical vagus nerve stimulation techniques, the importance of self-compassion in healing, and how therapies like yoga, touch, and movement are essential for regulating the nervous system.
Natural Vagus Nerve Stimulation Is Accessible to Everyone:
Dr. Schwartz emphasizes that while there are technological devices for stimulating the vagus nerve, the most accessible—and often equally effective—methods involve practices like breathwork, yoga, self-massage, and gentle touch. These natural tools are free, always available to us, and can play a pivotal role in trauma recovery.
Healing Is Not About ‘Just Calming Down’:
Stimulating the vagus nerve isn’t only about down-regulating or calming the nervous system. It’s about increasing awareness of your nervous system state, meeting yourself with compassion, and developing the flexibility to shift between different states—energizing when needed, calming when needed, and, most importantly, beginning to feel safe in all of them.
Trauma Recovery Requires Patience and Personalization:
Dr. Schwartz encourages meeting yourself or your clients where they are—especially for those who feel disconnected from their bodies due to trauma. Gentle, titrated approaches such as self-applied touch around the face, simple movement, and sensory grounding can help rebuild a positive mind-body relationship. Progress might be slow, and that’s okay; the key is consistency and self-compassion.
If you’re interested in learning more, enroll in "Vagus Nerve Stimulation: Natural Neural Exercises to Enhance Emotional & Physical Health" at the Polyvagal Institute. Live classes start online September 9: www.learning.polyvagal.org/courses/Vagus-Nerve-Stimulation-Natural-Neural-Exercises-to-Enhance-Emotional&Physical-Health
CONNECT WITH Polyvagal Institute:
WEB: www.polyvagalinstitute.org
Instagram: @polyvagalinstitute
Email: community@polyvagal.org
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Transcript
Introduction to Trauma and Polyvagal Theory
00:00:00
Speaker
The most intense sensations that we that our bodies register in relationship to trauma are along the midline in some way or another, whether that's the belly, the heart, the throat, the pelvis, right? Like there's a lot of ways in which all of that can be very vulnerable to experience.
00:00:21
Speaker
Today I'm joined by Dr. Ariel Schwartz, a clinical psychologist, somatic psychotherapist, and founder of the Center for Resilience-Informed Therapy in Boulder, Colorado.
00:00:32
Speaker
With over 15 years of experience studying and teaching polyvagal theory, Dr. Schwartz has been at the forefront of integrating this science into trauma healing through somatic psychology, EMDR, mind-body therapies, and therapeutic yoga.
Role of Nervous System and Healing Practices
00:00:49
Speaker
we dive into how the nervous system plays a central role in trauma recovery and how movement, nature, and everyday practices can support healing from the inside out.
00:01:01
Speaker
Whether you're a therapist, coach, or simply someone navigating your own healing journey, this conversation offers grounded insight and practical wisdom.
00:01:13
Speaker
Welcome to Wired for Connection, a polyvagal podcast. I am your host and my name is Travis. Arielle, I'm so thankful that you wanted to jump on here and have this conversation. And I think what a, the perfect individual to have this dialogue with about really, you know, how do we stimulate the vagus nerve naturally? That's kind of like the meta. That's kind of where we're heading today. That's just to kind of give all the listeners, here's kind of the concept, but did to drill it down more.
00:01:43
Speaker
You know, I'm wondering, can you share a bit about your your journey into kind of somatic practices, yoga, polyvagal theory, to give us some insight into that?
00:01:53
Speaker
Yeah.
Dr. Schwartz's Journey into Somatic Practices
00:01:54
Speaker
um My journey began well before I ever heard of the vagus nerve or polyvagal theory. And it really began for me in um yoga classes and experiencing the way that yogic breathing and movement breathing slowing down really helped my emotional and mental health.
00:02:16
Speaker
And, um I got so curious about why i felt so um ah So relaxed, but also like engaged, alert, calm, prepared to handle whatever the world would bring. And i think that especially because I was prone to a lot of anxiety in um my teenage years and um early years in college, when I came to yoga practice as a young adult, it was
00:02:47
Speaker
so satisfying. I had something that I could do that helped me to feel better. And I could come back to it again and again, and it was accumulative. And because that was such a strong experience for me, and then i started to kind of open out just from yoga into other somatic practices and had similar experiences there, I just wanted to understand everything that I could about the mind-body connection.
00:03:12
Speaker
That brought me into a three-year program studying somatic psychology as a master's degree program and EMDR therapy.
Academic Insights and Polyvagal Theory
00:03:20
Speaker
And i became a yoga teacher um in when I was 22 years old. i mean, everything just kind of lit up for me.
00:03:28
Speaker
and then I went back to get a doctorate in ah clinical psychology. But at that point, I was putting together the my studies of mind-body therapies and my dissertation research was basically looking at why do mind-body therapies work.
00:03:44
Speaker
At that point, everything started to line up around the mind-body connection and the nervous system and the endocrine system and the digestive system, the the reproductive system, the cardiovascular system, like how all of this is so deeply intertwined.
00:04:02
Speaker
And in about 2006, I first got introduced to the polyvagal theory through some of Dr. Porges's written papers. And i just would scour over them with my highlighter.
00:04:14
Speaker
and highlighted every word I didn't understand, which were many. yes I agree. and But I just spent a lot of time really trying to understand it. And then I had my first meeting um with Dr. Porges in 2012 and spent six hours learning directly from him, had so many light bulb aha moments.
00:04:39
Speaker
And ah just began to write about everything that I was learning from that point. It made its way into my first book um in 2016. And actually a little kind of funny aside story on this, because we're speaking about natural stimulation of the vagus nerve.
00:04:56
Speaker
yeah So I wrote a blog on that topic in, I want to say maybe 2014, when blogging was still kind of one of the ways that we put our work out into the world, right? It still is, but, know.
00:05:08
Speaker
ah we've We've moved into podcasts and other other kind of voice-to-voice, face-to-face forms.
Viral Success and Yoga's Impact on Trauma
00:05:14
Speaker
But I wrote a blog on natural vagus nerve stimulation, and it was my first viral blog experience.
00:05:21
Speaker
And I'm watching this thing go from, you know, a thousand hits a week to a thousand hits a day. And I knew that I had touched something really important for um kind of a ah key to mental health,
00:05:38
Speaker
And how do we work with the vagus nerve for trauma recovery? um And so in some ways, the feedback that I got from that particular response to the blog and then continued working with Dr. Porges and starting to teach this kind of honed my career toward the applied polyvagal theory in trauma recovery.
00:06:02
Speaker
Hmm. I, And hearing that, that kind of character story arc of yours, of shifting from your own anxieties as a young adult to finding yoga to then practicing it and noticing this kind of compounding effect of you could have a tool to practice and you can do something with and i'm wondering because i'm thinking about 10 questions right now the first part is when you first started yoga was it something that was it an immediate like hey this is great or was there some bit of a like did you have to kind of get work at it to find some benefit from it
00:06:38
Speaker
It's a great question. um i i certainly as a teacher see students in both camps. um And but something else about my background is that I was initially introduced to yoga when I was a little kid, my parents had both ah My mom and stepdad were both yoga practitioners and I was, you know, being a cobra and a tree and ah volcano and a lion and all of that stuff when I was seven years old.
00:07:03
Speaker
So it was a very, I had a very immediate kind of playful association to the yoga practice. So for me, coming back to it again, when I was 19 and 20, it felt like a homecoming. Okay.
00:07:13
Speaker
and um And I didn't have kind of any parts of me, if I want to use that language, that were resistant in a sense. Well, that's actually not true. There's one area of yoga that took me a lot longer and probably still in some ways is my growing edge with with the yoga practice.
00:07:32
Speaker
I love the movement. I love the active practice um and the mobilization. And I love the active breath practice. I struggle more with the slowing down side of things.
00:07:44
Speaker
You know, I'm probably one of those that in Shavasana is when I notice that my mind speeds up and there's a lot of people that live in that camp with me. I'm aware of that.
00:07:56
Speaker
Yeah. And I appreciate you sharing that because it is just for the, you know, all that those listening and tuning in and watching because everyone's in a different space and hearing, okay, there was already this kind of roadmap loose foundation that you had these fun, exciting, playful experiences. Yeah.
00:08:13
Speaker
because I think it's, you everyone's going to come in with different parts of the ready to do difficulties, things that are easy for them. Some people can maybe sit and be okay where the movements are. And so it's just, it's always good to hear kind of the, the, the realness of, of like a yoga instructor in their journey, because it makes it more human. It's like, okay, this is,
00:08:32
Speaker
i don't have to have it all figured out because i think a lot of times people enter these practices and even anecdotally from all the clients i've worked with when i teach breath work or things like that i think there is often an expectation of it well you know it's been a week or haven't noticed anything and my mind's still racing and That's even to this day, one of the more growth edges, I like that reframe, is the the stillness of the slowing down where you find it easier to be more of that movement, so that piece. And I think it gives us insight to that we're all still learning and growing and practicing no matter where we are, whether we're a teacher, a learner, instructor, expert not.
00:09:09
Speaker
expert or not that we're all learning and we have areas that we still got to work in. So I appreciate that, this kind of candid and honest response. And then maybe go to the next part is this this piece of your work in Boulder is this integration of these natural more natural ways of stimulating the vagus nerve, and there are many, and its role trauma recovery, and maybe specifically more yoga in the role of trauma recovery. So I'm wondering you could speak and share a bit about that and what you're doing and what you're seeing in your work.
Innovations in Mental Health and Vagus Nerve
00:09:43
Speaker
So maybe going back to that blog that I wrote in 2014, I remember at the time i was looking um and so at some research about polyvagal theory and how and how it's beneficial for mental health and trauma recovery.
00:10:00
Speaker
And I came across the research on the electroceuticals, which are basically a set of electronic devices that were either being surgically implanted At that time, a lot of the research was looking at those kind of like a pacemaker that would either be placed above the heart or in the in the side of the neck that um would send impulses to the vagus nerve.
00:10:24
Speaker
And the results were extraordinary, showing improvements in Everything from rheumatoid arthritis to epilepsy to depression, anxiety, PTSD symptoms, anger, impulse control, like amazing research coming out about this stimulation of the vagus nerve through these electronic devices.
00:10:43
Speaker
And then kind of looking at the evolution of that research and seeing that some of these devices were achieving these results through transcutaneous stimulation of the vagus nerve, meaning through the skin, but again with a um ah kind of bioelectronic device. And we can still see these on the market today. They're out there, right? And some that stimulate the vagus nerve through the um the skin around the neck or around the tragus or on the ear.
00:11:16
Speaker
And so, you know, I guess for me, some of those devices are expensive, or you have to get a prescription in order to be able to order them. And I was really starting to look and into, can we effectively stimulate the vagus nerve naturally?
00:11:35
Speaker
Well, in a sense, yoga has been doing that for 1000s of years, right? And then, you know, kind of putting together these kind of areas of interest and going well, you know, and I've been looking at this already for quite a while, because I wrote
Natural Vagus Nerve Stimulation Methods
00:11:49
Speaker
my dissertation on this in 2006. And I was already looking at how are why our mind body therapy is working? What are the effective ingredients, um effective ingredients, one of those being um that we're changing heart rate variability,
00:12:05
Speaker
that we are creating what we call more vagal tone, which is measured by a higher heart rate variability. And so now, you know, kind of is all lighting up. So when we change how we breathe, when we change how we move, when we um work with self-applied massage to some of these same areas of the body where the vagus nerve comes very close to the surface of the skin. Thank In some of these spaces, the vagus nerve is like a quarter of a centimeter below the surface of your skin. So it's very accessible through self-applied massage and um and working with certain pressure points in the ears, in the face, in the neck.
00:12:48
Speaker
ah I'll pause there for a moment, but there's more. Yeah, no, no. I mean, that's i mean hearing this reminds me of if you haven't, you know, those that are listening, haven't listened to previous episode, we we had the opportunity to have Dr. Peter Statz on, um which essentially is part of the brain man behind developing and using so exactly what Ariel is describing And in fact, he has his own on the market for external vagus nerve stimulators he could buy at a, it's,
00:13:19
Speaker
you know, relatively accessible. It's not breaking the bank, but it it definitely costs an investment. And I mean, amazing. i didn't even know about this personally until I had the opportunity of interviewing him. Like I had no idea this even existed. So it opened my mind up just more tools. And um of course my my brain geeks out because I do EMDR and I love tabs and having all the different wireless ones. Like, wow, we have technology that can bring healing on so many different levels.
00:13:46
Speaker
And it excites me. And so it's it's I'm so glad you brought that up. And it made my brain went right to the interview with him and and sharing. oh i I know him well and I know his work well. And and i think it's extraordinary to hear some of the stories, again, about the research and the efficacy.
00:14:04
Speaker
And, you know, I think that the the emphasis for me on the natural vagus nerve stimulation is first of all, our our natural vagus nerve stimulation devices are always with us, right?
00:14:14
Speaker
They're free. and If you're listening to this and not watching me, I'm wiggling my fingertips. Yeah. Right. And so from that standpoint, it becomes an extraordinarily accessible tool and accessible to anyone around the world, regardless of circumstances, regardless of finances. um It's something that that parents can offer to their children that you can offer to yourself that you could offer to your partner.
00:14:43
Speaker
Right.
Mind-Body Communication and Interventions
00:14:44
Speaker
Like it's such a beautiful way of connecting to ourselves and to each other nervous system to nervous system, and to offer um the experience of welcoming ourselves as we are. And I actually really want to emphasize that I think so often we think that vagus nerve stimulation is all about calming down.
00:15:09
Speaker
But actually what I i prefer to think of this as we're opening up the mind body, the brain body communication network through the vagus nerve, which is this beautiful superhighway of communication.
00:15:24
Speaker
i often use the metaphor that it's like a river and that sometimes that river has sediments and obstacles and and trees that are blocking the flow, right?
00:15:35
Speaker
Sometimes the river is in a flash flood and we have too much that that's moving through us. And that when we do natural vagus nerve stimulation, it helps us find the right balance for ourselves that we need in any given moment.
00:15:50
Speaker
And it invites us to meet ourselves where we are. So if we are feeling a bit more keyed up and anxious, we're going to notice that along the way.
00:16:02
Speaker
And we can combine it with compassion based practices, with acceptance based practices, which are also some of the working mechanisms as to why mind body therapies work.
00:16:14
Speaker
Yeah. And it made me think, I love that, that it's not the goal is not always to calm. Often it can become a byproduct of with regular practice and healing and integration, but that's not, I think some people get so focused and I'm thinking of a lot of clients have worked with, it's like, well, I got i didn't calm down.
00:16:30
Speaker
You know, it's not working because I still feel some level of dysregulation where being overly, you know, kind of stuck in fight orf flight still anxious, afraid, you know, worried, or I'm in,
00:16:41
Speaker
kind of numbing shutdown and you get, love the image of the river of this kind of, are we being flooded or we stuck? And it's more opening up our awareness to become ah aware of this movement and calm could,
00:16:56
Speaker
And I think eventually often becomes more um a place where we can navigate to more frequently with repetition. But often i find when people will first come in, I'm guessing even to your kind of your work out there in Boulder is that they're probably more stuck in a state of dysregulation, more fight flight or vacillating between anxious, worried, sad, afraid to now I'm overwhelmed and shutting down and numbing to a degree. So i'm wondering with those experiences,
00:17:22
Speaker
individuals who are coming in to maybe doing yoga practices or other natural, um, you know, natural remedies to engage in this. What are some initial practices that would be kind of like a, the first steps in stimulating vagus nerve and vagal toning that would kind of align with
Practical Techniques for Vagus Nerve Stimulation
00:17:42
Speaker
more of where they are. What are some things that you found to be maybe the most successful ones at this stage?
00:17:48
Speaker
Yeah. um i'll I'll name kind of five categories. How about that? that yeah I'd like to come to come towards us with and they I bring them in in a certain kind of order, um purposefully in terms of how do we and begin to layer in some of these ah natural vagus nerve stimulation interventions for ourselves or for others if we're working with with others in some capacity.
00:18:15
Speaker
And the first of these types of interventions with what what are what I call discovering interventions, or in the polyvagal language, neuroception, conscious neuroception.
00:18:27
Speaker
Basically, get to know the state of your nervous system, map it, get to know what triggers certain nervous system states. um Know when you're keyed up in anxiety or more of a sympathetic autonomic nervous system state.
00:18:41
Speaker
Know when you are feeling more in a shutdown or a fatigue or collapse, an urge to hide, an urge to get small, what what might elicit those different nervous system states at different times so that's what we would call the kind of discovery practice um and then from there once you know your nervous system begin to explore what helps you come a little bit more towards center right so that if we think of kind of, I'm going to go in this direction for a second, visually, um kind of a little bit more vertical, that if that if I'm mirroring a little bit of what we call window of tolerance and trauma recovery, that in the middle of the window, I'm kind of living in some capacious ah way of responding effectively to my emotions, my sensations, my nervous system state,
00:19:35
Speaker
And if I'm above the window, I'm more anxious or keyed up and sympathetic. If I'm below the window, I'm a little bit more shut down or fatigued, depressed, a little hopeless or powerless.
00:19:46
Speaker
And so the centering practices are what does bring me closer to what we'll call regulation. And regulation, again, doesn't mean that we're calming everything down. It means that we know how to meet ourselves where we are and begin to respond caringly or effectively to what we're feeling.
00:20:09
Speaker
So you know the the practices that would fall into a centering practice might be um a ah balanced breathing practice where we learn how to breathe evenly between our inhale and our exhale.
00:20:24
Speaker
Sometimes this is referred to as resonance frequency breathing, and there's a lot of science behind it. But what we're cultivating is a higher heart rate variability or a coherent heart rate variability.
00:20:39
Speaker
So every inhalation brings in a little bit of sympathetic and every exhale brings in a little bit of parasympathetic. when we breathe rhythmically, we're strengthening that capacity to have more vagal tone.
00:20:53
Speaker
And it's sometimes an accessible resource. And some people go, Oh, I don't really like to pay attention to my breath. It makes me feel anxious. So it's not the only natural vagus nerve stimulation resource. It's one of them.
00:21:07
Speaker
um Others would be to work with some self applied touch that help work with the upper vagus. So the upper vagus is what we call the myelinated ventral vagal circuit or complex, and it's our social engagement system.
00:21:24
Speaker
The upper vagus nerve works with other cranial nerves around our face, our ears, our larynx and pharynx in the throat, and so forth. And that basically we can work with some gentle stimulation that hopefully, again, helps us be more aware, respond lovingly and caringly towards ourselves.
00:21:46
Speaker
Before we started recording, Travis, I was thinking about um what you were saying about attachment work in EMDR, or attachment focused EMDR. And much of my work centers around attachment as well, because I work a lot with childhood trauma and so forth.
00:22:00
Speaker
And the, in a sense, what we're cultivating is the ability to build greater attachment to self. And we can do that with self-applied touch and this gentle stimulation of the vagus nerve.
00:22:16
Speaker
But I link those together so that we don't get kind of so lost in the science that we forget that what we're really doing is holding ourselves so lovingly, you know.
00:22:29
Speaker
Yeah. It made me think, and I'm wondering for the the whole, the hell, because some I have worked with some, and I'm sure you have as well, where sometimes the breath and the counting can become and in and unfortunate byproduct because becomes anxiety provoking because now after to I lose count and then I get stuck in the anxiousness. And I've worked with some individuals there where it didn't.
00:22:51
Speaker
where they currently are is that in that moment is not a helpful tool. And again, we learn as we have to adapt with the people we work with, right? Like what works for them, what doesn't. So we're kind of applying it.
00:23:03
Speaker
And worried with the holds. Are there a few holds ah that from your expertise and work that have been beneficial? And as a secondary, just because I'm interested, ah working with men,
00:23:19
Speaker
yeah is there any particular holds that you found to be helpful for them as you're kind of building this kind of connection to themselves? Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm really happy to share some of my favorites here.
00:23:33
Speaker
um So, Some of the um the practices that I'll offer are pretty simple. um And again, you might kind of go, well, what's this supposed to do? you know, why am I doing this?
00:23:45
Speaker
Kind of just trust it right? yeah So the first point of contact that I'll offer sits right here between the eyebrows. Okay. And um the kind of funny thing is, is that many of us just do this intuitively, right? Like when we're stressed, yeah this is the shape that we take. Like, oh, you're actually stimulating your vagus nerve. Yay. Right. But you can take your natural vagus nerve stimulation devices, your fingertips and greet these the points that sit here between your eyebrows.
00:24:14
Speaker
Hmm. And whether it's just um kind of holding those points or small circular movements in one direction or another.
00:24:27
Speaker
And sometimes these points are a little tender, right? We're like, oh yeah, I know that sensation, right? um Maybe you're familiar with these points because of headaches or um or just general kind of furrowing your brow.
00:24:45
Speaker
um it actually is kind of funny because sometimes these facial massages are like a natural facelift where actually working some of the muscles that can contribute to those lines that ah people go and get Botox for. But hey, wait, we could do this naturally too. ah So you can kind of self-massage there and then gently work your fingertips across the top of the eyebrow.
00:25:14
Speaker
Now, you know, it may not feel quite so... um I don't know, quite so profound.
00:25:24
Speaker
But it feels good. I'll say that. It feels good, right? it feels really good. and then you can work your way towards your temples. And it can feel really nice just to do a little self massage in one direction or another ah at the temples.
00:25:41
Speaker
Now, next point that I'll offer is to go below your eyes. So bridge of nose and then sliding outward on the top of your cheekbone as if like you're going to gaze straight forward.
00:25:55
Speaker
Your fingertips are going to come right to the center underneath your your pupils. So almost slightly inside from where you are. and um Yeah, there you go. and then And then maybe halfway between those two points that you were just at.
00:26:08
Speaker
ah Perfect. You got it. oh sweet then And then, and a lot of it is more intuitive. So it's not like an exact point, but we can start there and then feel into any of those tender points, do a little bit of just hold or circular movement. doesn't have to be super deep or tight.
00:26:28
Speaker
and Again, it's another place where sometimes we're like, wow, I had no idea I had tension in my cheek muscles. ah But there we go. And then you can again slide outward from your cheekbones outward toward your ears.
00:26:45
Speaker
um And then we'll do that kind of famous tragus point. So the tragus is the bit of cartilage that sits in front of your ear. Thumb can go behind. forefinger in front, you can do both sides at once or one at a time, and then you just give a gentle squeeze.
00:27:02
Speaker
And so when um I've had conversations with folks that work with, that have worked with the surgically implanted vagus nerve devices, ah friend of mine um has one for epilepsy, and she got that because she wanted to get pregnant.
00:27:18
Speaker
And um so was asking her, yeah you can do one at a time, you can work with your, your your ear pods there. Exactly. um so I asked her, how often does that vagus nerve stimulation um impulse go off?
00:27:35
Speaker
Right. What would be your guess? oof ah Every three to five seconds. Every five minutes. But he's actually a really good guess because I don't think that we realize how frequently it happens, right?
00:27:51
Speaker
Even every five minutes is a lot. i know that You're right in a day. It's a lot. It's frequent. It is a lot, right? So think about how often our vagus nerve and our autonomic nervous system needs a little impulse to work optimally.
00:28:10
Speaker
Wow. amazing. Right. So the reason why I like to work with these very simple ones is because they're things that we can do on the fly. Yeah.
00:28:23
Speaker
A few times a day, quite readily and quickly spend a few times an hour. Right. right A few, how many, like if you were to say a prescription, prescription, ah you know, a few, a few minutes, three to five minutes of spending doing that right there.
00:28:38
Speaker
you So here's, here's generally what i recommend around and that question. i recommend having one longer practice in the morning, something like 15 minutes. It doesn't have to be super long and even five minutes, you're going to get so much benefit.
00:28:54
Speaker
But a bit of a longer one just to it's almost like a um I don't know, maybe it's like your morning espresso, like you're going to kind of right, like give yourself an extra boost for the day.
00:29:08
Speaker
And I really mean it like we're talking about calm, but even just a little bit that we just did I feel so alert. I feel so present. I do. i feel that too, actually. I was already kind of calm and like relaxed. I feel a little more even just kind of just, and I'm not making this up, but everybody. I'm like, literally, I'm like, okay, i actually feel that feeling of just release. I had a little bit there from this morning and last night's sleep. And i'm like, okay, I'm here. Yeah.
00:29:34
Speaker
Yeah. So I want to come to your question about um men in particular. Now there's lots of different ways that we can work with the vagus nerve. And again, sometimes we need something that's a little bit more gentle calmer, right? Like imagine you're, you know, holding your face and, and kind of holding that like you would ah ah a young child in a very loving way.
00:29:57
Speaker
um and I'm going to share kind of two more. One is again, one of my go to favorite, ah especially if you're feeling yourself kind of leaving that window in either direction, it tends to be a pretty quick, fast reset. And it's simple.
00:30:15
Speaker
It's to place one hand at your brainstem, back of your skull. you trace the bones at the back of the skull, that's your occiput. And you just place your hand right over the base of your skull.
00:30:27
Speaker
okay Other hand to your forehead. And i would say maybe 30 seconds. And if you feel comfortable holding this up to a minute and really coming back to combining the head hold with some um of that rhythmic breathing. And since we're only doing a minute, we would probably take about five breaths.
00:30:54
Speaker
Okay. And
00:30:59
Speaker
And just allowing that feeling of holding your head and the rhythmic breathing. Eyes can be open or closed. It's very simple.
00:31:11
Speaker
you put a little pressure on or not? No, it's actually a very light hold. Very light hold. Okay. Yeah. Very light hold. So you're not holding your head in a vice. How about that? Good. And that's about a minute. Go ahead and release your hands.
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah. Hmm. I'm glad I asked the whole how hard should it, because naturally was starting to, I was pushing like pressure. like Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super gentle. It's a nice one to do when you're lying in your bed, because it will also remind you that you don't have to push your head forward or back. Your head is kind of stable and you just get to do the hold. Yeah. I'm really glad you asked the question. Yeah.
00:31:47
Speaker
So it's more about um stimulating what we call neurovascular points that are in the forehead. They kind of sit on the two sides of center. and And we're getting a little bit more dilation and blood flow into both the frontal brain and brainstem. Mm-hmm.
00:32:05
Speaker
beneficial all around, nervous system well-being. yeah Curious how that one felt for you. Yeah, i felt I feel it. I think the one I felt more initially from this first was just was this one. I felt this one more, but I like this idea of the whole embodiment.
00:32:21
Speaker
yeah The last one that I'll share for our purposes now is to work right here if you trace your collarbones and again like a lot of our ancient systems have known about this for years like if you follow your collarbones to the point where you get the look kind of like bone right right before the divot here and then go down below that and maybe even just slightly out um it ah we also tend to get some sensitive points here right in the Chinese medicine system traditional Chinese medicine acupressure acupuncture these are called K27 points kidney 27 points and um but they're also really powerful points for our nervous system and you can self massage again kind of circular movements in or out and sometimes it can feel good to tap these points and you just tap a little bit here
00:33:20
Speaker
So some some folks might think about other tapping therapies that are out there, right? We have EFT tapping therapies, right? um And so we just basically are giving a little bit of tapping or circular movement.
00:33:38
Speaker
Some will prefer one over the other, or maybe both feel good for you. And then again, let that go. so I like the tapping in particular yeah or meeting. It's like if if we're in anxiety, it's a way to meet it with some energy.
00:33:59
Speaker
i like that. Yeah, I like that. I think that'd be a – yeah, that makes – I mean it logically makes sense too. You're meeting the energy and then you could transition if you needed from the initial energy boost to maybe then yeah massage or something or moving if you needed to. But yeah, that – I like that.
00:34:15
Speaker
Yeah. My next follow with this, how does it work with people who have a lot of like, um tribe because ah the focus is
Sensory Systems and Neuroception
00:34:22
Speaker
trauma. So trauma in maybe people who've had to be disconnected from the body. Does this, are these, some of these holds also really good at helping kind of titrate or bridge in getting more safe enough in the body where they can be there before they disembodied because as we know typically a disconnection is a form of survival that it wasn't safe to be in the body or safe enough so i had to disconnect i had to kind of kind of cut off you know head from this and i'm wondering are these also similar practices that you would assign people to practice to kind of get more comfortable there yeah
00:34:57
Speaker
So, so the experience of disconnecting from the body or dissociating or disconnecting from the sensory reality of the trauma itself is, first of all, something that we can really deeply honor as you and I both do is like, what a wise psychological and physiological coping mechanism to not have to feel all of that.
00:35:28
Speaker
yeah And as we're opening back up to feeling um very often the kind of the most intense sensations that we, that our bodies register in relationship to trauma are along the midline in some way or another, whether that's the belly, the heart, the throat, the pelvis, right? Like there's a lot of ways in which all of that can be very vulnerable to experience.
00:35:58
Speaker
So when we're working our way towards re reorienting to body, first of all, Is it, you know, is the client ready for that? I want them to feel like they're at choice rather than me telling them that this is right or that they should do this because that in itself can reinitiate either compliance patterns. um They're telling me to do this. so i should do this.
00:36:23
Speaker
But that might have mapping on historical trauma as well, especially relational trauma. So, you know, as as we build um interest or capacity to turn towards the body, sometimes it's helpful to start at the periphery of the body and to work our way toward the the midline or where more of those trauma sensations um are. So we can maybe even just work with again, the top of the head or a head hold, if that feels accessible or or grounding.
00:36:58
Speaker
um Maybe those points around the eyes might feel accessible or a little more grounding or at the base of the skull. um We might also work proprioceptively.
00:37:10
Speaker
so when we think about our sensory experiences, and and going to link this back to neuroception in just a moment, but we have basically three different sensory processing systems.
00:37:25
Speaker
We have our exterior reception, which is our five senses, what we see, taste, hear, touch, smell. And those can be somewhat more accessible if feeling what's happening inside the body feels scary.
00:37:41
Speaker
So we might work with a sensory tool, right? The olfactory experience of an essential oil or ah We might work with the sensing of just being able to touch something ah like an item from nature that allows us to just be with the texture and the sensory experience in the fingertips rather than going towards the core of the body. And we can think about the vagus nerve really being kind of lighting up in some of those same areas where trauma um sensations are strong.
00:38:15
Speaker
Yeah. And We also have our interoceptive experience of what we feel on the inside of the body. And that may be a little bit more scary because it links us more to our emotions, which will link us more to our memories and so forth.
00:38:31
Speaker
So that's what we're kind of building tolerance for. Our third sensory system is proprioception. And proprioception is basically how your vestibular system in the inner ear work with your vagus nerve, work with the joints of your body to help you feel where your body begins and ends in space.
00:38:51
Speaker
It's a beautiful way to start to work toward the um the body in a way that isn't all about that interoceptive sensing. Hmm.
00:39:03
Speaker
So how would we work with the proprioception? And why is that connected to the vagus nerve? Right? And it is. Yeah. um Proprioception.
00:39:15
Speaker
works with the um the inner ear. The vagus nerve, as we've kind of explored a little bit at the surface, has many neural connections into our ears that both help us sense um the, you know, kind of work with sound and attuning to the sound of the human voice and the maternal voice and and soothing sounds and so forth.
00:39:38
Speaker
But also our ears function to help us balance, help us sense where our bodies begin and end. There's a lot of response to gravity that happens within um the inner ear.
00:39:54
Speaker
And our ears receive feedback from the joints of the body, the wrists, the elbows, the shoulders, the hips, the knees, the ankles.
00:40:07
Speaker
to kind of gather all of these proprioceptive feedback that that lives with the proprioceptors that live at these joints, and the um ah synovial fluid that moves through these joints.
00:40:22
Speaker
And so when we're kind of sensing into the periphery, for example, just simply rotating your hands around your wrists, your feet around your ankles,
00:40:34
Speaker
It's helping a little bit with building some of that proprioceptive feedback. um You mentioned a little bit about one of your children having some neurodiversity, right?
00:40:46
Speaker
um ah Mine as well. and we worked a lot with occupational therapy that kind of worked with joint pumping and skin brushing to help them build some of that proprioceptive sensing.
00:40:58
Speaker
So neuroception pulls in these three sensory so systems of what we you know see, taste, hear, smell, touch, what we feel on the inside and sensing our bodies in space to help us determine whether we're safe or if there's a threat or if we're in danger, right? Life threat.
00:41:20
Speaker
yeah So when we can't feel ourselves in relationship to gravity, when we can't feel where we are in space, our nervous system struggles with that sense of safety.
00:41:34
Speaker
yeah i don't know where I begin and end. And that's really common with trauma. yeah So and other practices for the vestibular system and and the proprioceptive system are really gentle, slow movement.
Proprioception and Stress Management
00:41:49
Speaker
So whether that's my hands like in a hug or one hand to heart belly and just slowly swaying a little bit side to side. or you know forward back or sitting on a physio ball and bouncing a little bit or even getting onto a mini trampoline and bouncing a bit more.
00:42:10
Speaker
So bouncing, swaying, rocking, swinging are all going to give us proprioceptive feedback And when we do that mindfully, right, we start to give the brain the the nourishment, the food that it needs to feel where we begin and end.
00:42:34
Speaker
I love that. You know, that the the science behind it is always so fascinating when you read it. But on a practical level with working with the many clients that come across our doors, right,
00:42:48
Speaker
you know and you know everyone's a different place but specifically the ones that are really because primarily at a survival they needed to be disassociated disconnected is helping them titrate and having movement like simple like just getting and working with them where there's enough safe enough enough trust where we're building that strength that memory that felt sense that awareness little by little Yeah. And so many different windows in which we can engage that.
00:43:20
Speaker
It's not just one, but it's, it's many. And I think sometimes the job that I find, you know, is intriguing and sometimes difficult is where is that initial, I'm not sure if you've had this, or where is that?
00:43:32
Speaker
Where is this client and which what are those entry points in which I could help them begin that process? Because sometimes it is. We've got to have to feel for it. And sometimes it's exciting to figure it, but also like, okay, where is it?
00:43:43
Speaker
you know yeah um And having all these different windows are so helpful. Earlier when we were speaking, I was sharing the first two of the different kinds of interventions that we might bring in.
00:43:56
Speaker
Discovering interventions. What is the state of my nervous system? Centering interventions. which is where we might do conscious breathing and and we might bring in vagus nerve stimulation.
00:44:07
Speaker
um and then the next of those kinds of interventions are what we would call the balancing interventions. And balancing in this context doesn't mean standing on one foot.
00:44:18
Speaker
And um it's actually the recognition that when we are seeking balance to find balance or equanimity, if you are standing on one foot, your ankle and leg are not still.
00:44:30
Speaker
Your foot and the muscles of your lower leg are constantly doing little micro movements to help you maintain balance. So when we think about balancing from the nervous system perspective, it's about all of the adjustments that we need to do to upregulate or downregulate our nervous system to handle the everyday stressors of our world.
00:44:54
Speaker
And there will be many of them, right? That's the nature of being human. We're going to navigate stressors, stuck in traffic, late for a meeting, kid having a meltdown, an argument with your spouse, looking at the news.
00:45:10
Speaker
i mean, right. It can be, you know, living in a war zone, being fearful that you're not protected by your country, massive stress. struck, you know, stressors that can be small every day, or larger, but we we know about individuals with trauma. And and I speak speak this as much as one who's been through this journey myself, as well as someone who works with others, is that when we have a history of trauma, our stress resilience gets reduced.
00:45:40
Speaker
And those kinds of daily exposure to stressors, whether it's the news or the traffic, have a ah bigger impact on us, and it's harder to recover.
00:45:54
Speaker
So when we work with the balancing practices, we get to place ourselves in the driver's seat of our nervous system, where we actually get, we know the tools that to down-regulate out of anxiety or to up-regulate out of fatigue so that we can have a really smooth ride.
00:46:14
Speaker
And I love that image because it's so true. And um our body's constantly pivoting on the foot and the balance. It's like those micro movements that sometimes we're not even aware of happening because the muscles are happening. It's happening so quickly.
00:46:27
Speaker
And I love that analogy and image for those that are working is like, yeah, your body's working a lot to keep that. And seemingly big movements, if you're about to fall and other small, tiny ones when you're kind of in that space, but nonetheless, it's holding and it's shifting, which means to it the question is, you know, with the whole, this concept of trauma. And I'm wondering for what would you encourage or say, respond to one who someone's coming in to do the work and wanting to change.
Encouraging Clients in Therapy
00:46:53
Speaker
And yet they have the discouragement because maybe they've tried different, I'm just going to put a big umbrella. I'm going to call it therapies, big umbrella generalizing here.
00:47:04
Speaker
Nothing's really worked. And so, you know, now I'm coming here to do this and this is one more thing. I'm trying this breath work or this. And so, you know, if someone was there, how would you encourage them?
00:47:16
Speaker
or you know as a hope merchant for them of of engaging in a practice like this and and in a way maybe even even setting expectations in a way that's more creating even safe enough, even the expectations that we set. because I think sometimes come people come in and they're tired. They want it to work and they really do. And then if it doesn't, it's I think they quickly get into survival mode again. Like, well, one more thing doesn't work. I've tried this. I've tried this. I've tried this.
00:47:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. We're going to start by meeting whoever we're with right where they are that sounds so challenging, right? To have tried so many things.
00:47:51
Speaker
And up to this point, nothing has really worked. And you still feel so stuck inside of these symptoms. And to just experience what happens when we feel so deeply met, so deeply heard, which is applied polyvagal theory, right? Like that is where we start.
00:48:13
Speaker
And then from there, We kind of might even explore how long has it felt that way, that no matter what you tried, nothing was really going to work.
00:48:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It may have felt like that way a really, really long time. yeah And i think that what we're going to lean into here, as you said, is a merchant of hope, which I love that phrase. And sometimes I've also had clients say to me, don't use that word. Hope is a four letter word for me. right Sure. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. You're right. Right. Right.
00:48:49
Speaker
You know, but there's, there's this way in which we want to just say, what if now could be different? Hmm. yeah Are there any small things that we could start to explore now that help you feel that you're starting to move in the direction that you're hoping to arrive at?
00:49:08
Speaker
And it could be and like it and it And it may feel small and it may feel imperceptible and it may feel really slow. And we're going to keep holding the frustration of that. Because if you have years and years and years of what we'll call kind wiring in your nervous system in a certain direction that takes you out of balance, we're working against a lot of conditioned experience in your nervous system.
00:49:34
Speaker
yeah We want to be really respectful that it takes time to, you know, like when we look at the the the shifting of glaciers, which might be a bad example nowadays, because it's a little depressing, but, you know, like that, that movement of the glacier yeah slow.
00:49:52
Speaker
And yet, when you watch over time, it's amazing. Here's a better example. I use this metaphor a lot. When we're changing from winter to summer, from those two solstices, right?
00:50:06
Speaker
Every day, it's a pretty imperceptible shift in how much light or darkness we have. But over six months, it's dramatic. Right?
00:50:17
Speaker
And so what we're working with is those everyday increments where we're stretching the nervous system in these small ways where it's just a five or 10 minute difference in how much light or dark we're getting. Right. But over time it accumulates and we have this really significant shift.
00:50:42
Speaker
So There's a little bit of like, can we can we work with that buy-in? And can we do our trauma recovery in a way that feels, as you said earlier, titrated, slow enough that it doesn't we don't get the rubber band effect, right? Like we stretch, we expand, and then we contract because that was scary.
00:51:02
Speaker
Or conversely, we go towards too much rest and relaxation and we go into alertness because I feel like I'm going to fall into the abyss. Right, right. yeah yeah so thank you for sharing that because think even those are listening right now i'm sure it spoke to someone listening because i think that's such a more and more i've heard more of that the more i've done it i've heard more individuals coming that have tried things and not to say those things weren't zero impact but where they are they're they're feeling that defeat hopelessness like i'm trying and i'm still not better or things aren't really improving how would like and it's
00:51:39
Speaker
yeah know We're trying to, again, mean them where they are, but I love the way in which you, I mean, I felt it even across this this, you know, our virtual time here that, you know, i could sense that. Obviously, I'm sensing you. So that's a big part of it is your presence is felt through this this screen.
00:51:54
Speaker
which is a big part is the the person you're working with, I would say. And this balancing in different ways of coming in and through through yoga, through breath work, through touch, through, and I know there some other ways we can, you know, singing, humming, so many ways in which we could stimulate bagel toning, connecting with nature. I know you shared going on hiking and myself too, of being, I love the ocean, love trees and you know, sitting in the sun, music is a big one too for me personally, playing my guitar and feeling the the strings vibrate and just kind of sitting there is really soothing for me.
00:52:28
Speaker
And I think having these practices in so many different ways for all of us is how we can begin to heal trauma naturally. um And it's about, I think, some level of consistency, I think, is that we've got to be consistent. We have to do some level of regular engagement. I would So true.
00:52:47
Speaker
So true. I'll share the last two layers of the this kind of five five type of intervention model, right? We had discovering, centering, balancing.
00:52:59
Speaker
The fourth one is the energizing practices. And it's worth just naming it really brief because the energizing practices can be really empowering. And it is actually where things like weightlifting and mindful running, mindful um dancing, aerobics, whatever, you know sometimes even on the yoga mat, if we have a really vigorous practice, right there are ways in which we actually need those states of elevated heart rate and elevated respiration
00:53:32
Speaker
to enhance our well-being, right? It's great for our cardiovascular system. It's great for um all the systems of our bodies and for our nervous systems to know that we can go into those elevated heart rate, elevated respiration, and know that we're safe and feel it as empowerment and joy and play and excitement rather than fear, panic, anxiety.
00:54:00
Speaker
When we feel our heart going fast in our chest, sometimes with a history of trauma, we have that immediate association, something bad is going to happen. So this is really all about reclaiming new chris perceptions of yourself, new cognitive meaning making when we have those big, alive, um full energy experiences.
00:54:26
Speaker
Yeah. And then the fifth one that I'll just name really quick, the fifth one is discover, balance center, balance, energize, and calm. And we do have calming practices as part of the whole model. It's just not the whole model.
00:54:44
Speaker
So the calming practices let us go into meditation or yoga nidra or deep relaxation practices so that we can learn to sleep well at night.
00:54:55
Speaker
We can repattern our bodies to go into rest and digest. We can receive the nourishing benefits of meditation and relaxation. Without dropping into fear that if I become still, I can't protect myself.
00:55:14
Speaker
I have to stay vigilant. If I become still, I'll go into a black hole, I'll disappear, I'll fall into the abyss. And those types of emotions.
00:55:26
Speaker
experiences may have been again, that kind of coupling of calmness with trauma. And so we continue to uncouple these nervous system states, so that we get to live in the whole range of our humanity, our humanness.
00:55:40
Speaker
Yeah, I love that image of uncoupling our nervous system states from the trauma or the pain or the hurt that these are all these states have restorative and goodness to them. yeah And I think it's more when we get coupled or stuck with and these things become this natural perception of this is a threat or not safe or dangerous that I get into a survival state. and But there's something about energizing that's good and good for the body height, you know good stress that grows us, pushes us.
00:56:10
Speaker
I love the weightlifting. because that training does it gives us the capacity it's like breath work of like if you're a swimmer you've been holding your breath long or you begin to feel more confident but initially it's you're exhausted you're tired but the more you do it you have control of your breath when you swim you could hold you know how to hold and breathing correctly to get that deep breath and not get fatigued but that takes practice just like calming does and i love the five these five ways or how what word you would use not ways you said the five um
00:56:41
Speaker
Five types of interventions.
Resources for Trauma Healing
00:56:42
Speaker
Five types interventions. yeah Of how we engage this. And I think there's even when you hear all these five, there's so many ways in which we can go about that. And depending on where someone is, we have all these different entry points and what they might need or maybe where they already have a strength with. You can add this now.
00:56:58
Speaker
And I'm wondering if you know if people wanted to find your work, if they wanted to read about and engage with or even work with,
00:57:09
Speaker
Where could we find you? Where can we go? Where can we send them? yeah Well, easiest thing is just look look up Dr. Ariel Schwartz. and You'll find me. i' I'm out there. um And the the model that I was just sharing here today, these five interventions, this is the structure for the Applied Polyvagal Theory in Yoga book.
00:57:32
Speaker
So it takes you through how do you apply these five types of interventions. It's written for therapists to use with clients and gentle ways that we can bring information natural natural vagus nerve stimulation into psychotherapy sessions, into trauma work.
00:57:47
Speaker
um I have other books of similar nature, Therapeutic Yoga for Trauma, which is about how we bring this onto the yoga mat or into a yoga class. I have um the Polyvagal Theory Workbook for Trauma, which is my latest book.
00:58:01
Speaker
This um just came out literally a month ago, 2025. And know and um this book is written for the client. This is written for the layperson, for anyone that wants to start to bring these practices in for yourself to work with your own trauma. And they're all basically mind, body,
00:58:25
Speaker
practices to work with resourcing around your trauma without reliving the past. So we get to really rewire the brain and the nervous system into states of greater regulation.
00:58:37
Speaker
Wow. I love, I, that's so great and and very exciting for you. I'm sure a big, ah hurdle, right? It's like, it's finally out. I know writing and releasing is not, it's a, it's a marathon from my understanding.
00:58:50
Speaker
It's a big process. Yeah, i'm I'm grateful. It's my eighth book. So I've been i've been around that block a few times. yeah um And it's very satisfying. Each of the books are actually really quite different from each other and and and complement each other in different ways.
00:59:04
Speaker
um And in terms of just how you can stay in touch with me, I've got a YouTube channel at Dr. Ariel Schwartz, a Facebook page, Dr. Ariel Schwartz. Instagram is Ariel Schwartz Boulder. Lots of nature photos there. Yeah.
00:59:18
Speaker
Well, it makes it easy to find you, which is good. It's the same. The names are crossed. Good branding and marketing. And, you know, for those that are listening and and or watching, everything you're going to find here will be in the show notes. You can click on it. It'll be clickable, linkable to all of ah Dr. Schwartz's work and what she's doing, what she will continue to do.
00:59:39
Speaker
so I just want to say thank you so much for your time today. and And even walking us through, again, if you're just listening, please go watch it because, know, Ariel really showed us and you you get to see me holding my face too.
00:59:51
Speaker
Showing some of these practices in real time. I think what a great thing. We get to talk about it and show you some things you could do right now today in your home. And you have a few things that you practice every day. So just want to thank you for your time and just blessings to your work.
01:00:05
Speaker
Thank you so much. Really pleasure to be with you, Travis.