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99 – The Kent State Shootings
0 Playsin 16 hours
Jeff covers the story of the Kent State shootings, a pivotal and tragic moment in American history that took place on May 4, 1970.
During a period of intense national unrest over the Vietnam War, students at Kent State University gathered to protest the expansion of the conflict into Cambodia. What began as a demonstration escalated into chaos when members of the Ohio National Guard opened fire on unarmed students.
In just 13 seconds, four students were killed and nine others were wounded. The event shocked the nation, ignited further protests across college campuses, and became a defining moment in the conversation around war, civil rights, and the role of government force against its own citizens.
This episode explores not only what happened that day, but the lasting impact it left on American society.
Visit us on Linktree for the collection of links, Instagram, or email us at jeffandsamshow@gmail.com.
Sources
- Kent State University Libraries – May 4 Memorial Collection
https://www.library.kent.edu/special-collections-and-archives/may-4-memorial-kent-state-university - Kent State Today – Students Guiding History
https://www.kent.edu/today/news/students-guiding-history-kent-state - Wikipedia – Kent State Shootings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings - Kent State University – May 4 Historical Accuracy
https://www.kent.edu/may-4-historical-accuracy - History.com – Nixon’s Response to Kent State
https://www.history.com/articles/richard-nixon-kent-state-shootings-response - History.com – Kent State Shooting Overview
https://www.history.com/articles/kent-state-shooting - Darkest Hours: The Kent State Shootings (Podcast)
https://podcasts.apple.com/at/podcast/darkest-hours-the-kent-state-shootings/id1638918169?i=1000749601765
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Transcript
Intro & Banter
00:00:01
Speaker
Are you ready to record? yes we're going to start with pirates. And my eye. Hi, Sam. Were you already recording? We can cut that out. You butt head. No, we can cut that out. Hi, Jeff.
Podcast Introduction
00:00:35
Speaker
Welcome to the Jeff and Sam show. I'm Jeff. And I'm Sam. And this is your favorite true crime history and comedy podcast. I say comedy loosely because sometimes we're funny. And other times we're we amazingly funny. We think we're funny. No, we are. No, we are. We are. How are you? What's new?
00:00:54
Speaker
What's new? um Well, what's new is also what's old. You know you can find us all the places. yeah Click the link in our whatever. Yada, yada, yada. Do the thing and give us five stars. That's the most important thing ever.
Reunion with Kimmy
00:01:04
Speaker
And you know I haven't seen Mindy since we talked about it on the last episode. So we've got to make sure that we make sure that she has given us. Yes, we do. And I have to tell you something. Tell me. um So but we got an email the other day to the show.
00:01:19
Speaker
And it was from... So it was from one of my best friends from ah way, way, way back.
00:01:30
Speaker
You have so many ways to go. No, no, no. So I have so many ways to go. But her name is Kim or Kimmy as we call her since the movie My Best Friend's Wedding when they were screaming in the bathroom, Kimmy. Kimmy. Kimmy. And so Kimmy found me. The show, like she uses Spotify. That's all of her entertainment. She doesn't do TV. She uses Spotify and she was searching for podcasts and she saw Jeff and Sam.
00:01:53
Speaker
She thought about me and my dog Sammy because I had a big Newfoundland Sammy. Yes, I'm named after him. And so when she saw my name, Rogers, she clicked on the podcast and when she heard my voice, she started crying. Now it's been years since we've talked. Holy tits. Now, this bitch is crazy.
00:02:14
Speaker
and like a definitely me and you kind of way. Like, she's crazy. And i love her. And I'm so, like, she emailed. We switched phone numbers. So now we're texting and we're back in But like, this is the old. We're like swimwear. You know what? This is the old school kind of friend who knows all your shit.
00:02:34
Speaker
Ain't never going to tell none of it. She knows where you buried your body. She absolutely does. Kimmy, I was trying to think of like, every day I'm at the gym. Every day I'm hustling. And ah the song comes on that says, if you want to go and take a ride with me, we three willin' in the foe. Oh, no. And there's a part of that song. No, there's a part of that song that goes,
00:03:02
Speaker
pass me the money.
00:03:05
Speaker
And I think of her every time I hear that song. And then i also think of her when I hear the song. This is going to give you a window into who she is, okay?
00:03:17
Speaker
I crashed my bridge into the car. i watched it. I let it burn. I don't care. a fucking man. She don't care. That's my Kimmy. To Kimmy, we are going to... We're choosing to Kimmy, dammit. To Kimmy and all the queers. I don't know if Kimmy's queer. I don't know if she's queer. is queer. Kimmy is just...
00:03:35
Speaker
crazy I love good crazy. We are good crazy. So Kimmy, this cheers is to you, bitch. This cheers is to you?
Balancing Family & Podcasting
00:03:45
Speaker
I'm drinking a lollipop strawberry vanilla. Oh, I'm a Ridge Rush. Cheers. Kimmy, cheers. Cheers.
00:03:53
Speaker
oh So yeah, that's ah that was a surprise to see in the email, Kimmy. I love that for you. I love you, babe. I can definitely taste the botanicals in this, by the way. I taste strawberries. And vanilla.
00:04:06
Speaker
yeah It's good shit. It is good shit. um So, you know, just to rehash the whole Pirates thing. So today is a day. And we had a plan to work out or to record. And it kind of just got derailed because I had to go do some family stuff. And the next thing you know, I'm sending Jeff texts. It's like, hey, I'm leaving in the next 30 minutes. And then an hour and a half goes by. Well, yeah, she sent me a text at
Nursing Cruise Adventures
00:04:35
Speaker
529 that said I'm leaving in 30 minutes. At 7.15 p.m. on this Monday night, May the 4th, be with you, oh she ah texted her and I was like, hey, you good? and I woke up from a dead like drool on the floor, carpet imprint on my face, back aching because I'm too old to be doing that shit. I was like, oh my God.
00:04:59
Speaker
And... I felt like the pirate from Pirates of the Caribbean. So i felt like I should like share that with Jeff. So I sent him a text message that was like, Hey, have you ever seen it? he said, no. I said, well, this really won't hit the same way, but there's the pirate in Pirates the Caribbean who has the wood or he has a false eye and it's obviously wood because he's a pirate and it's, you know, whatever.
00:05:23
Speaker
And in order to get it to be not sticking sometimes, he has to get, like, whacked upside the head every once in a while. And that's just what i felt like. For the first, like, 15 minutes of my drive, I was like, I don't know if i don't know if my eye is, like, open or not. And then it was, like, my stroke phase. Like, my right eyelid wouldn't open. Yeah.
00:05:43
Speaker
We're good now, it's all even. Even and equal. And my eyes facing the same way. Kind of, yeah. yeah There goes there goes There goes it. There goes it. Dim's going. There goes it. um what's um What's new? What's going on in Sammy's world? Sammy's world?
00:06:01
Speaker
Elmo's world? that add I mean, i have to tell you guys that Sammy and I are not often a apart even We even did something recently where I had to, we were together, but then I had to go to dinner in D.C. with Outer.
00:06:19
Speaker
And that's a whole story coming into the show soon. But I just kept thinking, I just need Sam to be with me. Yeah. Because it was incredible. So we're not apart often.
True Crime & TV Discussions
00:06:30
Speaker
Yeah. I was thinking about how much like this year we're going to be a apart, and it was kind of freaking me out. Well, we were apart last year. You know what? We've got to take breaks. We do. We do. But we're also together 99 or 95% of the time, right? right you True, true, true.
00:06:45
Speaker
But... Yeah. Oh, I lost my... Where was I? Oh, anyway, yeah, you... You were not here last week. Oh, God. held down the fort. All right. So, yeah. No, I wasn't here last week.
00:06:59
Speaker
Do you have stories to tell or do you want me to just dive into mine? Dive into yours because I saw great. I mean, I saw the best pictures. And one picture, it was like Retro Night. You were a table. yeah i Yeah. Who showed you that? I don't remember. I've seen so many pictures.
00:07:14
Speaker
They were great though, it was great. it was good You're cringing. I'm cringing. Why are you cringing, it's me. So they're supposed, well it's not just you, it means like that people are showing that to you, means they're probably showing it to everyone. So I would like to first and foremost thank my mama for the ass that she gave me. ah i would i also like to open a an OnlyFans page for all the people that were on the cruise, please. Because I feel like I should get paid for what I did. thought that was the greatest way to open this conversation.
00:07:44
Speaker
So everyone said what happened on the cruise stays on the cruise. Apparently it doesn't. No, no, that person, the person is not showing it to other people. Oh no, trust me. Other people are showing it to people. Yeah, whatever, yeah. So, um yeah, so background. This was a nursing convention um and it was Nurse Blake's Nurse Con at Sea, which was absolutely freaking phenomenal, which by the way, in case you guys don't follow me on Instagram, which you should, because I'm phenomenal, um Nurse Blake also has an obsession with Highland cows. So,
00:08:14
Speaker
He has a Highland cow tattoo as well, and I was just so jazzed to see that. So it was cute. um We took a picture together with our cows. I screenshotted that picture and sent it to Kim. I thought she would love that. um so that was great. um it was and It was a really extraordinary experience. I think I was really nervous going into it because that's not really, like...
00:08:34
Speaker
Despite me being a rave girl, I always have an escape. If I'm on land at a rave, I can always go. you know like I know my exit plan. On a cruise with five-ish thousand people, mostly nurses, it's not like you can just fucking jump overboard, yeah? you know So I was like, how am I gonna get out of here? I get a lifeboat. It's just down there. um So I was planning my escape um because seemed like it was gonna be a lot.
00:09:00
Speaker
It absolutely surpassed all of my expectations. I was at no point like, ooh, I gotta go. um The food was phenomenal.
00:09:13
Speaker
The company was great. um There were theme nights. On the theme nights, my outfits happened to
00:09:25
Speaker
not cover one of my greater assets. um And so next thing you know, the next morning people are coming up to me, actually the next couple of days, people are coming up to me and they're like, I'd recognize that body anywhere. And I was like, I have a face and a personality.
00:09:41
Speaker
Flattering though. It was, it was great. It was honestly, it was great. um But it was also wildly embarrassing. like I can feel myself getting hot just thinking about it. The face that you made when I said that?
00:09:54
Speaker
So it was it was a really good time. And yes, I had a great time. And the people that we went with, the coworkers, like we had an absolute blast. And wouldn't change it.
00:10:06
Speaker
Good. I held the fort down here. I'm proud of you. And if I hold the fort down, i ah you know watched my Netflix, did that thing. Did that thing. Watched a documentary.
00:10:19
Speaker
The same one you were watching yesterday, Mark? Yes. Oh, my God. He's sitting across from me, like the hall across from me, and he's watching this. Not at work. No, no, no. um We were waiting to get our pedicures. um And I'm watching him. He's watching this Netflix documentary. And he just keeps making those faces that make you want to be like, what the fuck? Like, dude, tell me what you're watching. But he couldn't tell me, obviously. So the, yeah, because we we literally don't talk about stuff. We can't. we We just have an agreement not to talk about stuff, just to chat about it on here. Because otherwise, what would you do? Otherwise, what would you do?
00:10:50
Speaker
Well, the um Netflix documentary was Should i Marry a Murderer? I'm sorry. Why haven't I heard this? Hold on. And I just, I need, it is so cringeworthy, right? It's Should I Marry a Murderer, 2026 Netflix, three-part documentary series about Caroline Murhead, Murhead, forensic pathologist who discovered that her fiance, Sandy McKellar, and his twin killed a cyclist in a hit-and-run years earlier.
00:11:23
Speaker
So, see it ok yeah well, I gotta say, it's not like he's out there like intentionally killing people, right? Not that that's okay. Honest to God, what I did was, well, what kind like what was the murder?
00:11:38
Speaker
I mean, ah is it accidental? Was it like I was avenging someone or I was protecting someone? Like I killed someone because they were trying to kill you? Like I would marry me still. Well, thank was it simply accidental?
00:11:50
Speaker
And that's what he says to Sandy. That it was, I think her name, that's what he said to Sandy, was that it was, we accidentally hit a cyclist. And yeah.
00:12:04
Speaker
And then he says a little bit more. And so she's like, oh, oh my God. And now she's in it. And... I pulled her out that ripcord real easy.
00:12:16
Speaker
Yeah. If I'm out, I'm out. But when you watch it, you can empathize with her to a point. That requires empathy. Well, point. Remember, we took my scale. I can empathize with her to a point.
00:12:31
Speaker
How long have they been together? No, no, no. It's not about them being together. It's like... the actions that she took and I don't want to spoil it. Okay. Um, Oh, but I, okay. I'll watch, I'll watch that tonight. Oh, cause I have an appointment tomorrow, which is my nap time. So I will watch that tonight. Keep myself up late so that I can sleep tomorrow.
00:12:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's just cringe-worthy and it takes place in the Scottish Highlands. Oh my god, that's what you were watching! yes that's what I was watching. And it takes place in the scottish Scottish Highlands. And when we go there, we have to stick our face in a river for like seven seconds.
00:13:10
Speaker
It changes your world. Something about fairies. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when we go there, we gotta do that. Why do you think my sister and I are so so obsessed with Scotland? We're going. I've kissed the Blarney Stone. No, don't never kiss. You kissed the Blarney Stone? kissed it. Oh my God. Oh my God. I have the gift of
Kent State Shooting History
00:13:25
Speaker
gab now.
00:13:26
Speaker
Also, whatever urine carried diseases are in Don't care. Don't care. I kissed it. I kissed the Blarney Stone like that. I got it on my I crawled up under it. Looked down three stories below me. didn't put my lips on that bitch. Listen, I put my lips on some bad stuff, but not that. kissed it. Um, speaking of a super random conversation that kind of brought that up, you might not appreciate this and by might not, you won't. Uh, I have a group chat with a couple of my friends.
00:13:57
Speaker
You have friends that aren't me? That aren't me? You're right. Maybe these are paid acquaintances. Um, so I got it. Just kidding. Friends that aren't me. I'm just kidding. Truly, he knows. joe gonna um Random text. I think it was ah I was always parking here.
00:14:12
Speaker
Survey question for the group. Is there a specific breast specific breast size that is generally larger than the other? Immediately I say, yup. Ay, caramba!
00:14:25
Speaker
Alan can Alan cover that. ok Make that a different name. And leave in me saying make that a different name. yeah yeah My friend says which side. And I said, I'd consider myself maybe not necessarily an expert, but close. And I said, the left is jet the general consensus from my experience. Most people claim that it's their dominant side. but they They always say like, oh, my right boobs bigger because I'm right handed.
00:14:47
Speaker
Again, not an expert, but I have noticed that it's the left in the general public, Right. And someone else said, hell if I know, ask me about scrotums.
00:14:59
Speaker
The person, the original person said, ah yeah. i remember That it's the left two. He said that he's a little titty expert over here. And I said, I told you, i am the master of all things. So i want I want to know for any of my people who are not of Jeff's persuasion, um Send us messages. I would like to know generally what you guys think about is there a boob that is typically larger? And if you guys are ladies, which one is your larger boob?
00:15:27
Speaker
Well, I've always thought it was the right one. If they're more dominant on the right side, maybe the left one if it's more dominant. Do you have a more dominant pick? I never noticed. But think about it. Yours is only muscle, right?
00:15:39
Speaker
So yes, your dominant might be larger because this is all your muscle. But with women, it's the muscle and it's the fat tissue on top of it. So sure, maybe some people it like sits different. But when you actually take a handful, I'm just saying.
00:15:55
Speaker
Okay. Can i take that and segue into another conversation? Absolutely. Boobs. I love them. Dolly Parton. And? Okay, so Dolly, after Carl died, I think it was a year ago.
00:16:09
Speaker
Maybe two years ago. Two years ago. She had a like a really bad first year with all the firsts without Carl. And the second year, she did things like cancel the Vegas show. and So there's been a lot of suspicion about Dolly, right? Like, is she okay? Is she not okay? And I've wondered that myself, right? Honestly. I knew that she was grieving Carl. That's like a lot we all were to grieve. We were. And...
00:16:32
Speaker
Today, she posted an Instagram video, and it was about three minutes long, and she's doing okay. And it was so funny. She's like, okay, imagine me as like an old antique car. Wow. When you pop the hood, you've got like a motor that needs rebuilding. The transmission's kind of skipping. the oil pan's leaking. There's a lot of stuff wrong. a spark plug that's going like this.
00:16:59
Speaker
But still, it's a classic. Damn right. And when you fix the classic, it's back to new. She's got some medical problems. Okay. And she's being treated. And her doctors tell her that they're all treatable. And she's got the best doctors. So soon, she will be ready to go back on stage. Okay.
00:17:15
Speaker
Hell yeah. I was so happy to see that about Dolly because... that would be ah That would be a blow that I don't think we would recover from this year. We all need... We need we need to get through 2026. We need Dolly. Please. We need Dolly. but Dolly for president. A fucking man. Dolly for president.
00:17:31
Speaker
Dolly Parton, if you ever listen to this show, please know that we might be your two biggest fans. But you know what she says about running for president? Mind you, I can quote Dolly like Kim can quote friends. Excuse please quote.
00:17:42
Speaker
Insert. Dolly says, DC don't need any more boobs. And I fucking love that. DC doesn't need any more boobs. They got enough.
00:17:53
Speaker
But we love Dolly. And not all of them are on the chest. yeah Yeah. ah What else was I going to tell you um Let me see if I put anything in my pod talker if it's blank again.
00:18:07
Speaker
Your pod talker. I love that you have what you call it a pod talker. Well, it's it's a thing. It tells me stuff. um No. Oh, nope.
00:18:18
Speaker
Are you sure? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In case anyone was wondering, the last time we spoke, I was watching six different TV shows on all these different networks and stuff. I have not proceeded to watch any more of them. I haven't watched TV. So didn't watch Line of Duty?
00:18:38
Speaker
Wait, that's not the one you said? There was one that you said that was, Alan commented to me when he was editing the show that he loved that show. Long Bright River, Hunting Party, Imperfect Woman, Criminal Record, The Wire.
00:18:53
Speaker
The Wire. That's the one Alan likes. Alan loves that show. it it is a It is a solid show. And I mean, there's a little bit of me that's like, I got respect it because it's from Baltimore. And like, that's my, that's my homish, you know?
00:19:04
Speaker
Maryland represent. Yeah, he he really liked that show. It's a good it's a good show. um I know, I have not watched further. I don't know what I did for the past two weeks, but I did not, because we didn't record. yeah so it's been a while, but I have not done anything.
00:19:20
Speaker
Well, the other day I looked on Instagram, and I followed this man named Lee Abamonte. And Lee Abamonte, think he's around my age, I don't know, he's been to every country on Earth.
00:19:31
Speaker
And he's just like my idol, you know? don't want to go to every country on Earth, but he's been. And he was posting pictures in this house Where all the furniture, the whole interior, looked like my childhood, like the 80s. And I was like, I mean, late 80s. And I was like are we like, are we back there? Is it happening and again? Because I've seen the 90s come through twice. I've seen the 80s come through. Like, it all repeats itself. But this... let's Let's hope, let's just put this out in the world. Let's hope that the 2020s doesn't repeat itself. Because let me tell you, the last generation to do anything decent was the millennials, the are the the elder millennials. Well, I mean, i was looking at the yellow couches, yeah the weird brown walls, the like... That you could feel the texture your mind. decor that I just really remember from back then. And no, it's it's not come back in style. He was in a home that had been renovated to resemble the Brady Bunch.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yep, I can feel it. I can see it in my mind. It was in Hollywood. But when i I didn't read all of that, I just was scrolling through the pictures going, God, does this look back? Are we back there now? No. but Did I flashback? Am I still where am? Honestly, so sometimes I wish. um Well,
00:20:47
Speaker
ah yeah, man. I think... Should we do it? Yeah, I think that's what I got. Since Jack said, come on, get to it. yeah Get to the story. Oh, no, Jack, I'm so sorry. to No, Jack, you got to you gotta to hang around with us, buddy. Because honestly, Jack, you know you love us. Us and our, yay, sports.
00:21:08
Speaker
ah You know what? On that side on that note, like we should genuinely thank everybody who listens for listening to this. It really does mean a lot. I mean, our intention to do this is just honestly to have fun with each other and to make you guys smile and laugh occasionally and tell you a good story. and so Sometimes cringe.
00:21:29
Speaker
Sometimes a cringe story, but our intention is to entertain you and to have fun. And we love the feedback that we get, you know. well and we have, it's what it is it's wild to me that we have a solid fan base. Like there are regular listeners that communicate with us that they watch or they listen every single week. And that blows my freaking mind because people listen to us every week. love that. i love that It means a lot to us. It really, really, really does. We don't take it for granted. No. And if we ever miss a week for whatever, i mean, you know, we live crazy lives. um Just know that it it we try to prevent that.
00:22:11
Speaker
so And if we make you smile, if we make you laugh, we have done what we wanted to do. five five i can five High five. out because the table's too. High five.
00:22:21
Speaker
That was the gayest thing I've ever seen. I am pretty motherfuckin'. Sorry. ah I don't know. I go back and forth because I know occasionally there's a 12-year-old that listens, and I'm so sorry, but I gotta be me.
00:22:33
Speaker
I, I, I, yeah, no. Jack, it gotta be me. We tried our Monday Clean family edit and within five minutes, I think we said. broke it seven times. We did. And when we realized we broke it, we said fuck more, so.
00:22:46
Speaker
And you're getting a regular show from us today. Yeah. Yeah, you're just going to get a regular show from us today. So you're going to hang in there with us. You're going to enjoy the stories. We hope you do. And that's it. So Sam's going to flip a coin like we normally do. Hold that open.
00:23:01
Speaker
Oh my God, that's so pretty. Okay.
00:23:06
Speaker
when
00:23:09
Speaker
This, dear sir, is... Hakuna Matata. That's what I see. I don't know what this is. Czech? No?
00:23:20
Speaker
Yeah! Czech Republic. Hell yeah. Yeah. How did we get it? I think that was for me when I went to, um, like, the Bosnia. oh yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:33
Speaker
Okay, ready? So you're gonna be the, maybe Slytherin Snake, maybe Lion. I'm probably not the Lion. I'm gonna go with Yoda. You can be the church on the other side.
00:23:45
Speaker
Hallelujah.
00:23:49
Speaker
It's while since I flipped a coin, my man. I gotta sit up straight for this. Don't throw it at me. I'm nervous. Don't hit me with it, please. I'm kinda nervous. Don't hit me with it. She's gonna hit me with it. Okay, deep breath in.
00:24:02
Speaker
Ayo! It's the church. Is that me? That's you. Okay. Because you are church. How quickly forgot. Oh, I missed it. How quickly I forgot. Okay. Sip, sip.
00:24:13
Speaker
Sip, sip. Don't make fun of me. I'm not.
Personal Reflections & Future Plans
00:24:17
Speaker
um i with we need our jet Don't judge me. We need out to be recording. we Listen, fifty nine days on video it be nine days okay I have long been interested in a story. Like I've known it for a long time since I was a kid or teenager or something. Which for everyone's reference was a very, very, very long time ago. It was back in 1747. I was going to go with 1682. Okay.
00:24:42
Speaker
um yeah I've known it for a long time. And so last week I was like, it was on my list of stories to do. It's not like a happy story. It's not, it's pretty tragic story, but it's not like uplifting. But the events,
00:24:57
Speaker
of the story happen on Friday, May 1st, Saturday, May 2nd, Sunday, May 3rd, and Monday, May 4th. Which is what this week was. So i was like, you know what?
00:25:13
Speaker
ah Kismet. It is, it's kismet. We've got to do this story today because i don't know if it'll be the same. Ever again. Right, and so I'm going to just start.
00:25:24
Speaker
I, just starting. I. I. May 1970. America is grappling with the Vietnam War. The Beatles had just announced that they were breaking up.
00:25:37
Speaker
you I love that you look confused. The good news is that the Apollo 13 had just plummeted through Earth's surface, or earth Earth's atmosphere, and the three astronauts survived. But the Vietnam War was raging on, and the nation was divided.
00:25:52
Speaker
This pitted the Communist North against the Vietnam's Democratic South. There was a growing fraction of people who were protesting the war, particularly on college campuses across the United States.
00:26:05
Speaker
President Nixon had been elected in 68 in large part because of his promise to bring the Vietnam War to an end. And in 1970, it appeared that's what he was doing.
00:26:16
Speaker
But in April, April 30th of 1970, Nixon authorized U.S. troops to invade Cambodia, which, side note, Cambodia was a neutral country at that time. Idiot.
00:26:28
Speaker
North Vietnam had been using safe havens in Cambodia to launch attacks on the U.S.-based South Vietnam. Nixon even made this decision without notifying his Secretary of State or Secretary of Defense. That sounds a good choice.
00:26:41
Speaker
And the American public finds out about this like a day later. the sort of this The story that I'm going to tell you today is the story of the Kent State shooting on May the 4th. No.
00:26:54
Speaker
Yes, go for it. It's just so sad. it It's well a story worth telling. It's an angering story. It is, but it's just it's it gets you in the heart like it shouldn't have happened. Yes, and I'm going to get into why that shouldn't have happened. Tell it.
00:27:11
Speaker
Okay. It was a watershed moment for an America that was deeply divided. The aftermath of the shooting led... the student-led strike that forced colleges and universities to close across the country.
00:27:23
Speaker
And some political observers also think that the shooting on this day tilted public opinion against the war and possibly contributed to the downfall of President Nixon. Did you know that?
00:27:37
Speaker
So the sources that are used are a history.com article called The May 4th Shooting at Kent State, The Search for Historical Accuracy by Jerry Lewis and Thomas Hensley, and another history.com article titled How Nixon's Presidency Became Increasingly Erratic After the Kent State Shooting. Ooh.
00:27:59
Speaker
And since it's May 4th, according to Kent State University that I read the other day on their website, the campus community and visitors gathered at noon today on May the 4th at the Kent State Commons to commemorate the moment that the gunfire erupted 56 years ago. The commemoration included a performance, remarks from university students and administrators, the ringing of the victory bell, and a moment of silence at 1224
00:28:27
Speaker
And a lot of what I get in this story comes from a historian named Ryan Vandermark. He was a professor at the U.S. Naval Academy. Just to add context to this story, the Vietnam War was fought in the era of the draft, and the draft granted deferments to people who could afford them.
00:28:47
Speaker
And it also granted deferments to college students. The deferment granted to college students was lifted in 1969. So now even college students have to, they're drafted.
00:28:59
Speaker
But you know what's crazy is we work with we work with college students. yeah babies They're babies. Babies. And during this time, anti-war protests were, they weren't new. the first and the biggest protest against the war happened May of 65 in DC with 20,000 protesters. And then in 68 and 69, those were the deadliest years of the Vietnam War. In 1968, 45 Americans were dying in vietnam And this went into 69 as well. So there's a lot of people that are like vietnam vietnam vehemently opposed to the war, but there's also a lot of people that are pro our government's decision to be fighting this war. And basically in this time, the political center in this country is going away.
00:29:49
Speaker
President Nixon announced the invasion of cabo Cambodia on April 30th, 1970, but the official announcement, before that official announcement, there were rumors that it was gonna happen.
00:30:01
Speaker
Protests had already started on that happening on the universities across the country. Kent State was a very typical university at the time. Many of the students had cousins, brothers, friends who had been deployed to Vietnam, so it was personal for a lot of people.
00:30:17
Speaker
At the same time, many of the students at Kent State were Vietnam veterans who were there on the GI Bill. And the city of Kent is a conservative place traditionally. So this kind of creates a volatility.
00:30:32
Speaker
Okay. The protests at Kent State started on May 1st, 1970. On that day, hundreds of students gathered on the Commons, that's the large park in the center of the campus.
00:30:43
Speaker
And it's a place that students had protested other things in the past. Several of the speakers spoke out against the war and specifically against President Nixon. On the night of May 1st, in town there were clashes between the students and the local police.
00:30:59
Speaker
That night, police alleged that the students threw bottles at the police car, and the police also say there were fires in the streets and that students had stopped traffic. Mayor Satrum declared a state of emergency in his city. He contacted Governor Rhodes asking for assistance.
00:31:15
Speaker
Governor Rhodes was running an election that year. His term for governor was about to expire, so he was running for senator. He was running him for the Senate. And he was the law and order candidate for Senate.
00:31:28
Speaker
His primary election was to be held on May fifth That year. So Mayor Satrum also closed the bars, and this pissed off the protesters even more, and it turned, um it increased the size of the protest in the streets. Well, because they weren't bars anymore. Pissed off. They didn't have their bars to go to. They're pissed off about the war. Because you to bar, you can commiserate with people in a bar, you close the bars down, you send them out in the street.
00:31:55
Speaker
Yep. The next day, May 2nd, there were rumors that radicals were making threats against the businesses and campus buildings. Mayor Satrum asked the governor to send in the National Guard.
00:32:07
Speaker
So Governor Rhodes sent the Ohio National Guard in, headed by General Canterbury, to calm the tensions. There's so many um elements in this story that are with us today, you know? They're with us today and- They are, they're very real. And and actually, I need to make a point real quick.
00:32:29
Speaker
Someone that i value and respect greatly, earlier today, I was having conversation with her. um We were having conversation with our grandparents about things in life. And something that she said was,
00:32:44
Speaker
Americans became complacent at at at some point. we Women's rights, we won that, yay. ah African-American rights, yay, we won that. um ah Gay rights, yay, we won that. And then everyone kind of just settled. So all those people that were fighting and that fought so hard for all of those things,
00:33:02
Speaker
stopped fighting as much and kind of got into this place when the people who are opposed to all those things were like secretly fucking festering like a bad fucking sore. And so now we're in this place where this generation doesn't know how to, 1970s it, doesn't know how to fight for the things that they believe in and like,
00:33:24
Speaker
say, hey, you're wrong. Like, don't do these things. we We do all these protests and we've had these protests for months and months and months now, right? And they're not the same.
00:33:35
Speaker
There's not a lot of change happening. True. Keep going. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, I'm going to get into that. Side note, there were people that were telling the mayor and the governor they shouldn't send in troops.
00:33:49
Speaker
And that the people that were telling them that were the university administrators and the community prosecutor. They implored the governor not to send the National Guard because they knew how volatile the situation was and they knew that adding the National Guard would add fucking fuel to the fire.
00:34:07
Speaker
Like it did today, like it does today. it The Ohio National Guard was already on duty and part of Ohio, so they mobilized quickly. And FYI, the National Guard had no training on how to deal with student protests. They weren't riot trained, yeah.
00:34:23
Speaker
Exactly. They arrived at Kent State the night of May 2nd. By that time, however, protesters had already set fire to the ROTC building, and many others were watching it burn and cheering it on.
00:34:36
Speaker
There was even a report of the firefighters and protesters clashing when the protesters tried to prevent the firefighters from putting out the fire. To people in the conservative town and to the law and order governor, it was time to put the hammer down on the protesters.
00:34:51
Speaker
Clashes between the National Guard and the protesters went on all night. Dozens of people were arrested. It was around this time that General Canterbury suggested that there were, quote, agitators,
00:35:04
Speaker
It's been going, or it's it's the same shit today. It's the same shit today. funny that you were talking about the 70s coming back. Agitators among the protesters. On Sunday, May 3rd, that was a calm day. It was warm, sunny, and students were even engaging with the guardsmen on duty. Because remember, this is what I think is so important to remember. These guardsmen... Are doing their job. They are directed. Are often... And I'm not... There's no defense of what happened to these students at all. Period. End of story. But the guardsmen, in real life, there they work at banks.
00:35:38
Speaker
They're nurses. They're doctors. They... are regular people. They're personal trainers. They're teachers. They're fucking preschool teachers. So, yeah. And that that that is a problem that we are dealing with a lot too, right? Is that there's a whole bunch of stuff going on right now. People are being pulled up and doing things and there's a lot of hate towards them. But it's like, that's that that's a 19-year-old kid from fucking Wichita who was told, hey, you got to go do this thing.
00:36:04
Speaker
He didn't know anything. And that Sunday was very calm. They were commingling with each other. But there were more than 1,200 guardsmen on duty, and they the city looked like a war zone rather than Kent, you know?
00:36:18
Speaker
On Monday fourth the 4th, there was a leaflet by the governor that said, per the governor, any assembly of more than two people was prohibited, and the scheduled rally against the war was prohibited. Some real professional umbrage shit.
00:36:33
Speaker
However, about 3,000 protesters showed up to the commons to assert their constitutional right to free speech and motherfucking dissent. And like hate it or love it, free speech and dissent are guaranteed to us by the First Amendment. Tell the door, President. so nearby the destroyed ah ROTC building, there was about 100 National Guardsmen stationed there. So on campus, there was about 100 Guardsmen.
00:37:03
Speaker
They had M1 military rifles with bayonets attached to the end of the rifle. I think the fact that they had military rifles with bayonets attached shows that they shouldn't be trying to stop university protesters, right?
00:37:17
Speaker
Also, on the other hand, and this is a point we just said, no excuse for what happened. Those people were murdered, but the guardsmen are outnumbered 30 to 1. And they probably felt anxious. They probably felt vulnerable. i can imagine that. They're jittery. They're shit in their pants.
00:37:34
Speaker
And the guardsmen, like we said, they had normal day jobs, right? They're normal people doing normal day jobs. Jake from State Farm. Yeah. Sorry. Keep going. It's true. ah i also think about that when I'm in D.C. and I see the guardsmen, like you said. Well, and they do. And everyone, you know, there's a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of.
00:37:53
Speaker
But to be clear, nothing justifies what happened to the students. Correct. It's still unclear who organized these protests and who protested in the protest.
00:38:03
Speaker
How many were actually Kent State students, we don't know. But nevertheless, the protesters were there to protest the National Guard being at Kent State. And they were there to protest the Vietnam War.
00:38:14
Speaker
And so far, it's pretty fucking peaceful. I mean, the night before the ROTC building was burned, but Monday, it's peaceful so far. Even though it was peaceful, the Ohio National Guard General Canterbury ordered the protesters to disperse.
00:38:30
Speaker
The announcement was made by a Kent State police officer riding in a military Jeep using a bullhorn. and The protesters refused, which the Justice Department of the Nixon administration later said that they had the constitutional right to express their opinions about the war.
00:38:46
Speaker
The protesters began shouting and throwing objects like rocks at the National Guard. General Canterbury ordered his men to lock and load their weapons and to fire tear gas into the crowd.
00:38:58
Speaker
Now, according to that historian, Canterbury failed to tell the protesters that the weapons would be loaded, and that is against the National Guard regulations. In some way, you've got to notify, Well, yeah, this ist this is a a live weapon.
00:39:13
Speaker
it can cause deadly harm. As the guardsmen marched up the commons, this forced the protesters to move up a hill called Blanket Hill and then down Blanket Hill toward a practice football field.
00:39:24
Speaker
The problem was that the football field was surrounded by a fence and the guardsmen were sort of caught or trapped amongst the angry protesters. And the protesters were shouting at them, throwing rocks at them. they were also There was a parking lot nearby with protesters as well. General Canterbury ordered the guard to aim their weapons at the people in the parking lot, but only as a symbolic determinant.
00:39:47
Speaker
Now the guardsmen are ordered to retreat up the hill with students following them, and when the guardsmen got to the top, witnesses say they saw a line of guardsmen start firing their guns. Platoon Sergeant Matthew McManus issued an order to fire into the air in an effort to prevent bloodshed.
00:40:08
Speaker
It's believed that some of the guardsmen's singular are guardsmen plural reacted to the first word fire because of that about 28 of the guardsmen were firing their guns.
00:40:21
Speaker
Most were firing into the air while others were firing directly into the crowd of protesters. And in the span of 13 seconds, like 61 to 70 shots were fired.
00:40:33
Speaker
Some of the students even thought the guards the guardsmen were firing blanks. Four Kent State students were killed. including Jeffrey Miller, who was about 100 feet from the guard, Allison Krauss, who was about 300 feet, William Schroeder, who was 400 feet away, and Sandra Schwayer, who was simply on her way to her next class. She wasn't even participating.
00:40:57
Speaker
Nine others were injured, of which one was permanently paralyzed. William Schroeder was shot in the back, as were Robert Stamps and Dean Kaler.
00:41:09
Speaker
That's when the Kent State shooting goes national. Many people in that part of the country and other conservative parts of the country thought that they should have shot more so people, protesters.
00:41:20
Speaker
Nationally, however, people felt differently. The shootings at Kent State sparked the first national student strike in history. More than 4 million students at 2,500 colleges and universities joined the protest.
00:41:37
Speaker
Following the shooting, the university was immediately ordered closed and the campus remained shut down for six weeks following the shootings. Numerous investigatory commissions and court trials followed, during which the members of the National Guard, Ohio National Guard, testified that they felt the need to discharge their weapons because they felt feared for their lives.
00:42:00
Speaker
However, disagreements remain as to whether they were in fact under sufficient threat to use force. They went to court a couple of times. Both times the guardsmen were justified, deemed justified.
00:42:14
Speaker
In a civil suit followed by the injured Kent State students and their families, a settlement was reached in 1979 in which the Ohio National Guard agreed to pay those injured in the events of May 4, 1970 total
00:42:30
Speaker
Immediately after the shooting, President Nixon was caught on tape in a visit to the Pentagon calling the protesters, quote, bombs blowing up campuses. Now, Bob Haldeman was the White House Chief of Staff. He wrote in his journal that Nixon was, quote, very disturbed by the Kent State students.
00:42:49
Speaker
But he noted that the president was mainly preoccupied by the incident's political ramifications. Nixon had long sought to crush the anti-war movement on college college campuses, which he believed was the work of, quote, outside agitators. And hold yeah and Halderman reported the president was, quote quote, hoping rioters had provoked the shooting. good Good for the chief of staff, you know? Like, that's that's your man, you know? You've got to say whatever dumb shit comes to your mind to protect his ass.
00:43:23
Speaker
after the president After the tragedy, President Nixon appointed a presidential commission to investigate investigate the shooting. The commission's judgment essentially said that the shooting was unnecessary, unwarranted, and unjustified.
00:43:39
Speaker
And this is called the Scranton Report. And I'm going to read you a quote from the Scranton Report. I think it's powerful. Okay. All of the people who were shot that day were students in good standing at Kent State University.
00:43:51
Speaker
The National Guardsmen were there under orders from both civilian and military authorities. Duty at Kent State had not been pleasant. They had been cursed and stoned and some feared physical injury.
00:44:05
Speaker
Stones were thrown and bullets were fired. The Constitution protects the freedom of all citizens to dissent and to engage in nonviolent protest. Dissent is a healthy sign of freedom and a protection against stagnation.
00:44:20
Speaker
But the right to dissent is not the right to resort to violence. Equally, to respond to peaceful protest with repression and brutal tactics is dangerously unwise.
00:44:32
Speaker
It makes extremists of moderates, deepens the divisions in the nation, and increases the chance that future protests will be violent. Even if the guardsmen faced danger, it was not a danger that called for lethal force.
00:44:48
Speaker
The 61 shots fired by 28 guardsmen certainly cannot be justified. The Kent State tragedy marks the last time that, as a matter of course, loaded rifles are issued to guardsmen confronting student demonstrations.
00:45:03
Speaker
And as a side note, I thought that was a powerful quote from the report. I think that you nailed it. As a side note, President Nixon did win a second term as president. How'd he do?
00:45:16
Speaker
Well, he won the term, but the Kent State shooting may have set in and motion the events that led to his resignation. In Bob Halderman's book, that was the chief of staff, he wrote that the Kent State shootings, quote, marked a turning point for Nixon, a beginning of his downhill slide toward Watergate.
00:45:36
Speaker
Nixon had been dismayed that the Federal Bureau of Investigation and its director, J. Edgar Hoover, could not find any evidence of outside agitators, provoked the national are any evidence that outside agitators provoked the National Guard to open fire, or that foreign groups were funding the anti-war protests. I forgot how crazy that shit was. The Republican Party's messaging at the time was outside agitators.
00:46:03
Speaker
That's who was doing it. And that is what exactly what Hoover could not deliver to Nixon. Damn that man for being honest. And if you look at the FBI fbi interviews, they have literally they have marching orders to look for outside agitators. And me they just weren't there.
00:46:21
Speaker
So Nixon lost faith in the FBI and began to employ his own primary army of intelligence experts. That surveillance force, the so-called plumbers, orchestrated the break-in at the Democratic National commission Committee headquarters that led to the Watergate scandal and caused Nixon to resign the presidency.
00:46:43
Speaker
Dumbass. The ramifications of it all, right? Like, you're a dumbass. Sorry that law and order prevailed. You know fuck. Stones were thrown, bullets were fired.
00:46:54
Speaker
The victims at Kent State, the ones who passed away I mentioned already, but the they're Jeffrey Miller, Alison Krauss, William Schroeder, and Sandra Schwerer. The ones that were wounded were Joseph Lewis Jr., John Cleary, Thomas Mark Grace, Alan Confora, Dean Kaler, he's the one that was permanently paralyzed from the waist down, Douglas, Rintmore, James Russell, Robert Stamps, and Donald McKenzie.
00:47:19
Speaker
And resting on a two and a half acre wooded site overlooking Kent State University's commons, the May 4th memorial commemorates the events of that day. Engraved in the plaza's stone threshold are the words, inquire, learn, reflect.
00:47:36
Speaker
A progression of four polished black granite disks embedded in the earth's lead from app plause from the plaza to the four free-landing pylons aligned on the hill. The disks reflect our own image as we stand on them.
00:47:54
Speaker
The pylons stand as mute sentinels or watchmen. to the force of violence and the memory of the four students killed. A fifth disc is placed to the south acknowledges the many victims of the event and it implies a much wider impact, one that stretched far beyond the Kent State campus that day.
00:48:16
Speaker
And that is the story of the Kent State shooting. Jeffrey, well done, sir. Thank you. thought it was a very relevant story in a lot of ways. And honestly, ah didn't really know all that, but like I knew that it happened on May 4th, and I was like, that's a That is a sign.
00:48:36
Speaker
It's a sign from the Lord.
00:48:40
Speaker
The Lord. Odin didn't say shit. She's down in her bag searching for shite. so I took my, actually Smith. What's it like to have an addiction to chapstick?
00:48:53
Speaker
As you put your ah your cherry chapstick on. Also, when I say chapstick, I clearly mean Vaseline. Absolutely. He's a chapstick motherfucker. I'm Vaseline. You're a Vaseline motherfucker.
00:49:05
Speaker
Yes, there's an underlying theme to that. You guys should read it. What a powerful story though. I love that part what the report says, like, we have the right to dissent. We have the right to speak.
00:49:17
Speaker
Yes. I think that that was extraordinarily But, you know, it's one of those things. So...
00:49:28
Speaker
Sing out, Louise. I don't think I can. I don't want to. Sing out, Louise. I don't want to. I don't want to. i don't want i don't want to say what i was to think. I just don't want to. I think that you did a beautiful job with that.
00:49:39
Speaker
I think that that is...
00:49:43
Speaker
It's way too real. the The benefits of doing this story is like I always kind of wanted to know more about that because I've always known about the Kent State shootings. And so I got to do a deep dive. And I love a deep dive.
00:49:55
Speaker
You do. You do. And you did beautifully. Thank you. You good job. Let's hear yours.
00:50:02
Speaker
How long have we been going? 50 minutes. 50 minutes.
00:50:08
Speaker
Nah, I'm to save mine. Want to call it quits? I got a 16 pager. oh yeah, yeah. Okay, that'd be another hour. At least. Yeah. You know I can't really focus. So, yeah, 16 pages. So then what do you say next week you do yours? Okay. Are you ready for that? We'll keep that trend going until I get back from Alabama. and so Why are you going to Alabama?
00:50:31
Speaker
Okay, let me tell you what. I had therapy today. Yeah. And by the way, she loves you. My therapist loves you too. She emailed me on Saturday to kind of change our appointment schedule. And today she was like, I even noticed that Sam was your emergency contact. I was like, yeah. You're mine too. Yeah, you're my emergency contact. um And I told her, I said, I've got this graduation invitation for my nephew. He's graduating high school next week in Alabama. Oh, no. No, in two weeks. And...
00:51:01
Speaker
I just, I'm so in denial about him graduating. He's grown up. And i haven't opened the graduation invitation up yet because I just don't want it to be real, you know?
00:51:13
Speaker
And it is. And I'm so proud of him. He's like such a good person. You're such grown up too. like And he's he is a good person. He and I sat outside at the pool at your sister's house and talked way way way, way, way, way into the night. Yeah. It was, he's just, he's a he's a really solid kid. Yeah. I've grown up. He's a man now, right?
00:51:35
Speaker
He's like, that's He's a man now. That's crazy. And I know my sister will echo this, but we are so sad that mom will not be there to be a part of this because they had the most special relationship. A lot of the videos I have are like Landon would crawl into her bed.
00:51:53
Speaker
at night and he would play his games while she would lay there and look at Facebook on her phone. And that's just a lot of the videos that we have are of that. She's there. And she's there. And that's what I've got to remind myself because she is there. and that's what we said today in therapy.
00:52:08
Speaker
Like she's there through me. She's there through Kim. She's there through Landon. She's there. She's there. she Landon's here because of her, you know? Yeah. She lives in him. She does. think there's a Lion King quote about that. I get to meet Kim's best friend, Krista, who I've never met before. What? Yeah, so Krista's flying in.
00:52:28
Speaker
She's going to be there Monday night and Tuesday night. And so I get to meet Krista. She's coming from like Colorado, Arizona. I don't know. That's the place. I'm excited to meet her. Excited to go spend the week home. So what I was saying, oof, got lost from that point. What I was saying is we'll do one show next week. Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:52:47
Speaker
And then we'll pre-record... okay we don't We have to sit we have to like sit and organize this whole thing because with you gone and then with Norway coming up and then i have my annual European adventures.
00:53:04
Speaker
You've got a couple of, I can't wait for you to go to Norway with me. Bye guys. It's gonna be. It's gonna be great. Yeah, um yeah so we'll sit it and plan it but like,
00:53:19
Speaker
We do, the next couple of weeks, going one story. I thought we would do both stories tonight. That's why I went first. Otherwise, Sam would went first. No, no. Yours was fitting. at mine Mine is, it can be told any time, any place. And it is one that is known throughout the ages.
00:53:36
Speaker
What is it? I'm not going to tell you. Tell me. You already know. oh me. already know. Tell me. You already know. But there's been so many people at work, like, as I've been... Like, cause with this one, I have brought like four different books and everything. And like, I've been trying to like gather my information in my downtime. So people are like, oh what are you reading? I'm like, fuck off. i don' want to tell you And they're like, Oh, I know that. I'm like, don't say anything to Jeff.
00:54:04
Speaker
So you said, okay, I need you to go watch. Should I marry a murderer? Yes. I'm going to watch that three episodes tonight. Yeah. You will love the the scenes from the Scottish Highlands. Duh. Oh, love so we need to plan that. We also need to plan our next intrepid thing. But yes, I will watch that tonight because I have to stay up because I have my next back piece tomorrow.
00:54:26
Speaker
Oh, I'm so excited for you. going to be grand. Lindsay's going to do this one because Cam was busy, but um it's going to be great. Well, all right. On that note. um Thank you for listening to our Vortex of Fuckery. Let's close this bitch down.
00:54:42
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, and by the way, Apollo goes into the Hall of Flames 100%. Yeah, you said that. You thought it was, you liked it. I knew. So for the people listening, if you're still listening, I just want to say, I tell a story, whether it's a survival story that has Sam crawling out of her skin, or it is the Apollo story that has Sam being such the space nerd that she isn't. not a space nerd. I said isn't. Oh, isn't. Okay, thank you. If I'm eliciting a reaction from Sam, love everything about
00:55:15
Speaker
And one day we will get to the point where we are video recording. So you'll see his acknowledgement of me like jazzed about something. Because i so i will watch his face and realize that I'm reacting because I don't even know that i'm doing it. Oh, it's she she she goes into a ball like a little... i don't Like you can't even see us, but like I'm curling into a ball, Sam...
00:55:35
Speaker
But then, like, for the Apollo story, you were just, like, giddy as hell. And there's nothing more I love than a reaction. Like, I'm getting that, it's feeding me. You know what I mean? yeah You're like a parasite.
00:55:47
Speaker
Basically, yeah. um Close this bitch down. Remember, we're here for a good time. Not a long time. Bye.