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88 - Sarah Brady and Michael Peterson
42 Plays1 month ago
Jeff tells the survival story of Sarah Brady, featured on I Survived (Season 2, Episode 10). Her story is one of resilience, instinct, and the will to live in the face of unthinkable circumstances.
Sam shares the story of Michael Peterson, who was convicted in 2003 of murdering his second wife, Kathleen Peterson, on December 9, 2001. The case, often referred to as “The Staircase,” became one of the most debated murder trials in modern true crime history.
In 2011, after eight years in prison, Peterson was granted a new trial and released when a judge ruled that a key prosecution witness had given misleading testimony. The legal twists and forensic controversies surrounding the case continue to fuel discussion to this day.
Visit us on Linktree for the collection of links, Instagram, or email us at jeffandsamshow@gmail.com.
Jeff’s Source: I Survived – Season 2, Episode 10
Sam’s Sources:
- https://attorneys.media/michael-peterson-staircase-legal-analysis/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Peterson_trial
- https://people.com/where-is-michael-peterson-now-the-staircase-11864013
- https://collider.com/the-staircase-what-happened-to-real-michael-peterson/
- https://attorneyatlawmagazine.com/stories/michael-peterson-what-happened-in-that-trial-could-not-happen-today
- https://www.newsobserver.com/entertainment/tv-movies/warm-tv-blog/article313559828.html
- https://www.alcatrazeast.com/crime-library/famous-murders/michael-peterson/
- https://www.forbes.com/sites/monicamercuri/2025/12/09/where-is-michael-peterson-now-the-bizarre-true-story-behind-the-staircase/
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello, Sam. Hi, Jeffrey.
00:00:25
Speaker
Welcome to the Jeff and Sam show. I'm Jeff and I'm Sam. hey Hey, I did it. right I will do that every once in a while. once a while And then you'll go on a streak of doing it. Well, and then you'll blow it. Fuck it up. Yeah. And then we'll go to some other country, come back and forget what we're doing. Exactly. Entirely. it's Exactly what happened. Welcome to the show. You can find us on Instagram. You can email us at our Gmail account. It's all listed in the show notes.
00:00:50
Speaker
Follow us on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, iHeartRadio, wherever you get your podcasts from. That was very well done. Did it sound professional? It did. my God. once they follow us, what are they supposed to do?
00:01:02
Speaker
um Right now, you can, after you've followed us, rate us, review us, hit the star button. Five stars. Show us some love. We're here for you every single Thursday. What more do you want? Even when we are physically in other their countries, you will still get a show. We've still been here for you every Thursday. We came back from Egypt every Thursday end of the show for you, right? Yeah. In our minds. Actually, we had no clue what was going on. None. None at all. Didn't have the mental capacity for it.
00:01:35
Speaker
i look like the biggest dork today. nope First, tell me what you're drinking. Oh, oh okay. You want to go there? I'm drinking. Poppy.
00:01:46
Speaker
Strawberry lemon. Oh, I'm doing poppy watermelon. I thought that was Alpine Blast. No, the Alpine Blast isn't poppy. Oh.
00:01:57
Speaker
And it's like a white can with a lovely like forest green color. That's true. That's true. not Not that green, forest green. Forest green. This is more of like a neon green. Okay. Cheers, queers. Cheers, queers.
00:02:15
Speaker
That's the first time we've done that together. true look at us syncing up um yeah i was a big old dork dork dork well you know about it because we were on facetime and you facetimed me with daniel and i did this forrest gump wave to daniel and didn't even think about it until after we hung up and then i was like mopping the kitchen and i was thinking shit i look like forrest gump Well, so I was standing there because I knew that he came in at 3 p.m.
00:02:44
Speaker
So I was standing outside the the lobby entrance, not the ambulance bay. And I was standing in between the two doors and I was just sitting there waiting and i was like, And then I shit you not, I saw his little head like poke up in between the trees across the thing and i run outside and I Daniel!
00:03:04
Speaker
Ran across the parking lot. he was like, I thought you weren't here today. was like, no, I am. But did he do that on purpose? He thought we weren't there? No, he didn't think were there, Yeah, Daniel. Oh, so you chose your first day to come back when you thought we weren't going to be there. We you. Not offended at all. I understand. Yeah, we're good. No, we're good.
00:03:22
Speaker
We're good. Yeah, Jeff, you look good. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. With my shiny head. Hey. um oh What else? um Watched a movie over the weekend.
00:03:37
Speaker
and Were we working? and no we did I don't know. What day of the week is this? I thought it was Tuesday. I think it's Wednesday. oh i may be wrong. Should we look at our phone? It's Wednesday. We both looked at our phone. How can you tell if you're a nurse? What day of the week is it? I have no clue. You know when we have to ask people, like, can you tell me where you are? Can you tell me what month it is or what day? I have to go with month because if i say, can you tell me what day of the week it is, i have to, like, scramble and look to find out what day of the week it is. I mean, I honestly, like...
00:04:05
Speaker
I don't even remember that it was February. I was like, oh, September. Yeah. August. I don't know. It's one of those at the end. We're at the end of the year. I really did. i genuinely did. i was talking to Michelle about it, and I was like, yeah, how's football going for your son? And she was like, football's been done. I was like, but why?
00:04:23
Speaker
she was like, because it's February? i expect you to know more than that. Me, on the other hand, no clue. Yeah, I think it's kind of funny, though, that we do. We ask our patients orientation question questions, and like I would say 9 out of 10 of us, 9 out of 10 times, we would fail. If there are four nurses in the room and a doctor, if I say, can you tell me what day of the week it is? Everyone goes like this. Everybody scrambles, and we all look at each other, and we're like, is the was the patient right? Yeah, we're good. We're good. Oh, man. Okay, yeah, I watched a movie called Begonia.
00:04:55
Speaker
Oh, yes. I love her. She is the best. This movie was... Okay, you know there was Poor Things, right? Yes. Which was one of my fucking favorite movies of that year, 2024. was super interesting.
00:05:13
Speaker
Whoa, whoa, Was Poor Things 2024? Maybe. Holy sharp balls. Or maybe 2023? maybe holy sherples or maybe twenty twenty three Oh, I was thinking it was sooner that or more more reason than that.
00:05:28
Speaker
No. Oh, It was like 2024. Yeah. This movie was equally as bizarre. That's what I've heard. You know, the preview shows that she gets abducted. Yeah. And it's by these fucking crazy people. Yeah, something about, like, mind control, right? Conspiracy theory, mind control shit. Yeah, but, like, real crazy.
00:05:51
Speaker
And then, is it... Crazy. Oh, my God. Just insane. Oh, okay. After you watch it, because I think you should watch it, I'm not going to like sway your opinion with my thoughts about it. Okay.
00:06:06
Speaker
But, yeah, I want to hear your opinion about it. I want to see if you like it. She gets her head shaved in the movie. She goes all out for a role. She really does. And she looks good. she doesn't hold back. Nope.
00:06:18
Speaker
You look good with a bald head. Thank you. It's so funny, people's reactions. Like somebody that has worked with me for years will look at me for like five seconds.
00:06:30
Speaker
not knowing who I am. And then after that, they'll be like, oh my God, what? What? it's And I think we we talked about this. i don't know if we said it on the show, but it is, it's weird because i did it on on Tuesday and we left on a Wednesday And for me, I just, I spent the next two weeks seeing you every single day. So for me, it was just totally baseline now, you know? well and then when we got back to work and everyone was actually like, holy crap, what did you do to Jeff? And i was like, oh my God, what did I do to Jeff? I don't know.
00:07:00
Speaker
Cause it wasn't even forefront in my mind. It just, this is normal. This is natural. And then um people that we were on the trip with didn't know me any other way. So for a couple of weeks, I mean, nobody said anything.
00:07:15
Speaker
Suddenly I come back to work and. It's every time someone looks at you, it's just like. So funny. i love it. it's It's good. That's good. no I love it. I love it. I love it. um What else? What's going on with you?
00:07:28
Speaker
I feel like i had something to say. hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm.
00:07:33
Speaker
Nope. I thought I wrote it down, but I didn't. Apparently. Shocking. Okay. I'm going to say it In my best Arabic, I made, and I cannot speak Arabic, not even two words. It's that hard, harsh H. Sahlab. Sahlab.
00:07:48
Speaker
I made that the other night. Yeah, I'm proud of you. It was so delicious. and it Thanks for offering me some. Well, you weren't here. i mean, you could have told me. Okay. I was having a weekend of doing not a damn thing.
00:08:01
Speaker
It was amazing. Oh, I did a lot this weekend. Yeah. What did you do? Just the whole thing. Oh yeah. Yeah. The whole thing. Yeah. So I was doing nothing. Oh yeah.
00:08:13
Speaker
I couldn't even remember it was a weekend because I was just moving and grooving. Oh, you can't remember it's a weekend anyway. Honestly, you're not wrong. Right. But I like that I tried to hide it in that statement. but That was good. And I caught it, though. You did. Yeah. So I made that drink and I wanted something sweet. Right. But I don't keep sweet stuff here. so I was like, but I had already bought all the ingredients, including the rose oil.
00:08:37
Speaker
oh you did. And I used and it really comes out. I don't think what we had was made with rose oil or water. Rose water, not oil. I don't think that's what it was made with because this had a little bit of a different taste. Same texture.
00:08:52
Speaker
i got the same texture because it's supposed to be like, it's a drink. It's like a thick, milky, frothy, hot drink. Delicious so hot drink that we had in Egypt. And I, you know, gave it my best shot. It's basically like a dessert, but it's, they people drink it as like a Hot drink. Yeah, it's like a comfort. they eat it with a spoon. Well, so it's made to be either eaten with a spoon or drink, whichever way you want to do it.
00:09:20
Speaker
hi Can you imagine how weird that would feel? I start with a spoon and then just end up turning it up. So good. What nuts did you put on top? um So it came in a little pack, but, and I think there's pistachios and almonds. Okay. Yeah.
00:09:37
Speaker
Nice. It was, like, I had the sweet tooth, and I don't keep sweet stuff here, but that, like, hit the spot. No wonder you weigh 12 pounds now. I do not weigh 12 pounds. Okay. Yeah, you're right. You weigh 112 pounds of pure muscle. Whatever.
00:09:52
Speaker
whatever Whatever. Whatever. You and your skinny pants. That's what Amanda says to me when she's mad at me. Whatever. With her fantastic accent, who looked so pretty. So great. And that, oh, I can't think of the name of it.
00:10:07
Speaker
so What was the name of it?
00:10:10
Speaker
Scabella. Scabella. Not even. It starts with an A. A? Yeah. Nope. Not coming to me. Won't come to me. Beautiful dress. an A pretty dress.
00:10:21
Speaker
Yeah. She looked so pretty in it, though. Damn. Did she send it to us in the text message? I did. But did she... No, yeah, yeah. When we were in Egypt, she sent that to me and I had. Yeah, but like the message she sent us yesterday with the pictures. Did she say what it said? Abaya. Abaya. I was close. What did I say?
00:10:40
Speaker
because Gazelle. Gazelle. You were so close. Oh my God. That's like right there at it. There's an a You basically had it. And a B. That was basically it.
00:10:52
Speaker
Abaya. It sounds the same in my end. Gazelle, Abaya. And she looked beautiful in it. Stunning. But let me tell you what. i had to pick that thing out. She told you exactly what she was. No, no, no, no, no. I have the text right here.
00:11:06
Speaker
I said, ah she said, ah ah my um you have to pick it out. Oh, Lord. And I said, she said, yes, you pick one out.
00:11:20
Speaker
And she left me to my own devices to pick an Abaya out. I've never picked an Abaya out. I think you would look lovely in one. You should try it. i think I would too. Actually, I think I have pictures of you in something similar. Oh my God. Those are never to see the light of day. I haven't yet. i think I actually did send them to Kelsey.
00:11:38
Speaker
Okay. That's fair. Kelsey, you know. Kelsey count. We got like scammed. not No, we didn't get scammed. We were going to get scammed, but we ended it in Egypt.
00:11:51
Speaker
We, i don't really think I was a part of that. I have no backbone. So I mean i would have stayed there all night and spent all of my money. he like got us to come into a store and he did the old, Hey, I work at your hotel.
00:12:04
Speaker
And we were like, my God, really? And we ended up in a store and then I ended up trying on these clothes. He dressed you. He literally dressed me. Yeah. And the whole time I'm like, I do not want to be here. What are we doing? i thought it was lovely. i know you did. i was watching your face.
00:12:20
Speaker
I was focusing on you. I was like, oh my God, what do I look like? i can tell we were like You didn't take your eyes off me. You were like, what the fuck is happening? What is happening? he was spinning you around, putting stuff on your head and your neck. Uh-huh.
00:12:34
Speaker
ah Kind of strange. Kind of strange. oh Yeah. What else? i feel again I feel like i have something to say, but I can't remember it. You do have something to say. You said you did. know, but what was it? You I'll tell you on the show. don't don't even know where to start.
00:12:53
Speaker
Remember? Mind Palace. No Mind Palace. No Mind Palace. Did you write anything in your notes? No, I just looked. I just have a blank note that says pod talk.
00:13:05
Speaker
And then nothing. Oh my God, my therapist was like, here's your homework. I said, what? I love homework. And then she said, I need you to journal for me. And I was like...
00:13:17
Speaker
but what wow I got some weaknesses and one of them is journaling. I have the intentions every time to start journaling. So I buy these journals, one that you now have because I never journaled in it. It's lovely. though It's so beautiful.
00:13:33
Speaker
Wasn't the thing written in the book though? Was there not one thing? Not a thing. And so now I have my next therapy appointment on Monday and I still need to go buy a journal. I got to write some stuff down in this thing. So I can't lie.
00:13:46
Speaker
I don't even know what today is. It's Wednesday. We've already discussed that. Let's see how many more times we ask. So I have to like show up. which She doesn't have to know what's in it like or how much I've written. But you have to sit there and pretend. I'm going to hold it up and say this is what I have.
00:14:02
Speaker
I want you to write your best short story. In the journal? I already have two. Short stories? Yeah. Like your own personal... like No, there.
00:14:16
Speaker
So I never knew this is not dark. Okay, I'm not saying it to be dark. But I never knew that when somebody you love died, you have these grief dreams. I didn't know that was a thing until mom died. And i had these crazy fucking dreams.
00:14:33
Speaker
Sam, they were so crazy that I journaled. After I woke up, I was like, let me write that shit down. That was some Stephen King stuff. I mean, Stephen King would be proud.
00:14:43
Speaker
Joe Hill, his son, would be proud. wow There you go. And the dreams were so full of meaning, like kind of dark. I mean, no, they were really, really dark, but full of meaning.
00:14:55
Speaker
Nice. So I have i wrote them down. I was like, this could be like a short story, like a horror story. There you go. That's how it all starts, right? That's how it starts. Oh, like I also started watching the show From. Have you heard of that? Mm-mm.
00:15:09
Speaker
God, it's so good. F-R-O-M? like f r o m From, yep. From. From. From. So they're from these people are driving in this like SUV, no, RV. They're driving in this RV. It's a family of four. And they're driving through this town.
00:15:24
Speaker
And every time they get past the town, they pass the same tree that's fallen on the road. So it's Groundhog Day? So they drive past the tree. And then suddenly they're driving right back through the same town. No.
00:15:37
Speaker
And then they have an accident and they have to be helped by the people in the town. Nope. You never want that. And the people in the town are like, we'll help you. But here's some secrets you need to know about this town. You're not leaving.
00:15:49
Speaker
And two, every night when the sun goes down, nail your window shut, close the curtains because there are monsters out there. So good.
00:16:01
Speaker
Weird. Interesting. So good. All right. Yeah, I gotta like, I sit up sometimes and i'm like, oh, let me mute this. What's it on? a Prime. From. From.
00:16:12
Speaker
Yeah, you'll know the actors. There is this one actor. He's so hot. Oh. Cordy on more is his name. I know him. No. Oh, you don't.
00:16:23
Speaker
Oh, I don't either. But I had to Google him. oh so that but there are some that I will know. And then I was stalking his Instagram. Looking at him, that beautiful man. He's a hottie.
00:16:36
Speaker
Cordy on more. and know you're Googling him. No, I didn't even begin trying to spell that. I'm just looking at the show. The show is really, really good. i tried to watch it like three years ago and I couldn't get into it.
00:16:49
Speaker
But I started watching it again and now I can't stop. Won't stop. Get a good it, get it. I'm just talking because you're shimmying. Yeah, I can't even. That's not shimmying. That's popping it. Oh, sorry. You're popping it. Forward, backwards. Popping it. Shimmy is this way. She's popping. She just did a shimmy.
00:17:10
Speaker
You did so good at it. Oh, well. Oh, never mind. going to say that on here. Anyway, where what's going on? Coin. let's That was like an awkward segue.
00:17:24
Speaker
Because I was about to say something and like, I'm so proud of my brain for like halting that. It just, you stopped that one. And I didn't even consciously do it. It just happened. was good no That never happens. yeah All right. Tell me how to stop.
00:17:39
Speaker
Stop. Now, let's concentrate on this. Don't throw it at me. Don't throw it across the kitchen. Don't hit yourself in the head with it. I mean, you can if you want. Listen, there's a lot of rules to that, so I need you to just give me like two. Toss the coin. Let it land in your hand. Let's see if you can do it.
00:17:58
Speaker
can't read this. Turkey? Oh, okay. Maybe. Benedict Cumberbatch, I think, is that one.
00:18:07
Speaker
It's probably not turkey then. Yeah, I know it's turkey. How do we have a Turkish coin? Who gave us a Turkish coin? I mean, it says Turkey in it. Who do we have a Turkish coin from? I do not know. You're damn right.
00:18:22
Speaker
Weird. That is a Turkish coin, people.
00:18:27
Speaker
This is new. I've never seen this before. Did, um, Aram and Mipmet maybe get a taste? All right. Well, you're going to be Benedict Cumberbatch. Okay. And I'll be five. That's so not. No, it's not at all. yeah I just can't say the word that's on it. It says.
00:18:45
Speaker
T-U-R-K-I-Y-E space C-U-M-H-U. They need to make these like more defined. Because how is anyone supposed to read that? H-U-R-I-Y-E-T-I?
00:19:02
Speaker
Sure. So, Benedict Cumberbatch. It's like a Turkish whatever their coin is, right? I guess. come come her little little bit a bit of Yeah. was your best Turkish.
00:19:16
Speaker
Yeah, no, I can't even. I can't even. All right.
00:19:19
Speaker
She did it. It's Benedict Cumberbatch. Damn it. She did it. That's you, bitch. That's me. Now I can take a breath because I finally slipped fucking coin. okay Tell me a story. I'll tell you a story. And if somebody is listening for the very first time. oh And you've just like, you've decided you're going to tune out. Wait, because we got stories coming for you. We tell a story to each other. i don't know what the story is. She doesn't know what my story is. I don't know what her story is. How long were we just talking?
00:19:47
Speaker
Not 20 minutes. Oh. Uh-huh. We just started and we can't stop. It flew by It flew by. don't even know if we accomplished anything in the 20 minutes. One single thing. Not one single thing. I did get the title right.
00:20:00
Speaker
You did. and our names. Yes. Because sometimes you get that wrong.
00:20:06
Speaker
I call myself Sam sometimes. You did. Honestly, I'm a mess. I'm Sam and you're Jeff. No. That's not let's not who we are. Incorrect. Okay. You ready for a story? i am.
00:20:17
Speaker
Okay. So Sarah Brady and her husband, they're waiting on the arrival of their baby. She's already five days overdue. So she's probably ah fucking miserable in mid February At least it's not August. You know, yeah women who are pregnant in August that are like nine months pregnant. I feel so like, lindsay God almighty. Is that when she's doing oh yeah damn in Virginia?
00:20:45
Speaker
So it's 2005, February, when another woman calling herself Sarah Brody calls our Sarah at home. What was the first name Sarah? Sarah Brady. Brady. She's our Sarah. Okay. That's pregnant.
00:20:59
Speaker
Also call her good Sarah, maybe. Okay. And then Sarah Brody. I'm going to call her either Brody or bad Sarah. Okay. Okay. Okay. okay So Sarah Brody claimed that...
00:21:11
Speaker
a package was delivered to her house and it was from Sarah, our Sarah's baby registry. And it must've just gotten mixed up. Brody told Sarah that she too was expecting a baby and suspected that the the delivery man misread the similar names when he left the package on the doorstep. Nope. She's crazy. I know it already. wo So steal your baby, kill your kitten. Kind of crazy.
00:21:37
Speaker
put a pin in that. So um Sarah agreed to drive to Brody's home and pick up the package. The package contained items that Sarah, our Sarah, had listed on her registry, but there was no indication of the sender.
00:21:52
Speaker
Sarah Brody claimed that her husband had misplaced the billing information included with the delivery. Days later, Brody calls Sarah again, claiming that another package addressed to her had arrived at her home.
00:22:04
Speaker
This time, the two women chatted for about an hour, and Sarah Brady told her husband about the other Sarah and how she thought that she had made a new friend, probably.
00:22:15
Speaker
She would later tell Oprah Winfrey on the Oprah show that she thought Brody was just a, quote, lonely pregnant woman. Can I just say one thing real quick? I'm just going to say to say to I have enough fucking friends.
00:22:27
Speaker
I'm not going to make new ones with fucking strangers. Like, leave me out of it and your weirdness. Like, give me my package and be done with it. And if you call me a second time, be like, no, bitch, keep it. I'm out. I don't need your friendship. i don't want to be friends with you. i'm not talking with you on the phone. i don't care how long you are. They have apps where you can make friends. Okay.
00:22:44
Speaker
You can rent a friend. I'm not it. So you're opposed to our Sarah going over to Brody's house? A thousand percent. that's That's very much your personality, but mine is like our Sarah's. I would go over there and and be like, yeah, we could like we're bonding over something. Have I not told you enough horrible stories on this show? I know you so well, though, that I know your response to Brody would be, fuck right off. Fuck all the way off. Period. I mean, the first time, maybe I would go and get the package, and then I'd be like, hmm, no. No. Hate it. So you're not the only one because Sarah's brother-in-law saw the package earlier and said something is so strange about this. Fucking thank you, Sarah's brother. In-law. He said, i don't want you to go back over there.
00:23:27
Speaker
Sarah was like, what the hell is wrong with you? Here's a nice lady who tracked me down and tried to give me my gifts back. Okay, so next time you and I have a conversation about this kind of thing, I'm going to tell you, don't be good Sarah because she's good Sarah because there's clearly a bad Sarah.
00:23:42
Speaker
But there's other good Sarahs in the world. she she doesn't sam will never be good sarah she's always bad sarah no no no i'm just i'm just anti-social sarah very that's what i meant yeah so has enough friends sarah not lonely enough right it's fair sarah brady drove to sarah brody's home the next day the package again arrived from an unknown sender uh brady brody sorry he said the same story about misplacing the billing information But where is, i get this lady's pregnant, so her brain is gone. I get that. It's like mush, okay? But where's your common fucking sense, lady?
00:24:19
Speaker
Two packages, unknown senders, sent to the wrong place. And she happened to have misplace the billing stuff again? That hinky again, if I if I went the second time, I'd be like, oh, that's cool. Delete my number. Never call me again. Keep whatever comes to your house, my girl.
00:24:39
Speaker
You would absolutely say that I would. and I wouldn't go alone. So Brody told our Sarah she would find the misplaced lip and asked her to join her in the bedroom to help her search. No.
00:24:50
Speaker
oh Bad Sarah was very anxious and waiting at the doorway. So our Sarah walked inside and once she was in there, Brody locked the door behind her. And then Brody said, quote, I have this nosy neighbor upstairs who gets into everybody's business.
00:25:07
Speaker
So they go inside and bad Sarah's husband wasn't home yet, but she said he would be home soon. I want to throw shit. as And she was excited for Sarah to meet him. That offset Sarah.
00:25:19
Speaker
Our Sarah said, I'm going to have to go run errands. But Brody said, no, stay. I want to give you a tour of my apartment. Reluctantly, Sarah said, okay. Okay. Maybe Brody was just lonely. So Sarah goes into her bedroom and she sees the cover of a People magazine with the entire Sex and the City cast on the cover.
00:25:37
Speaker
But all of their faces had been scratched out and their names had been scratched out too. And above their names, the word Sarah was written. About that time, Brody said to Sarah, why are you carrying your keys around? Is that your security blanket? And Sarah is like, who the fuck says that?
00:25:55
Speaker
And Sarah had been carrying, Brody had been carrying, no, sorry, our Sarah had been carrying her gift around and trying to leave for like the last 30 minutes. And then right about that time, Sarah looked over at Brody's nightstand and saw an inhaler.
00:26:11
Speaker
And the inhaler had the name Katie Smith on it. So now Sarah has all these thoughts going on in her head like, who is she? Is she Katie? Is she Sarah?
00:26:21
Speaker
Why did she tell me her name was Sarah bert Brody? What's going on here? And then suddenly, Brody dropped to the floor and started screaming like she was going into labor.
00:26:32
Speaker
At this point, everything that Sarah has seen, all the strange behavior that she's seen from Brody just gets pushed aside because now here's what seems to be a woman going into labor. Also, not your problem, good Sarah.
00:26:48
Speaker
so good the fuck out. Have your baby. Good luck. but So good Sarah helps her up. um She tells Brody, we need to check and see if your water is broken and we have to start getting you to the hospital.
00:26:59
Speaker
And Sarah's freaked out because she hadn't had her own baby yet. Remember, she's five days past the due date at this point. Brody is moaning in pain, looking like she's going into labor, but now she's sort of leaning over Sarah. And she's looking right into Sarah's eyes. And this is when Sarah gets freaked ah the fuck out because this person looking at her is not the same woman. She has this demonic look in her eyes.
00:27:23
Speaker
Sarah knew that something was fucked up at this point. She just didn't know what it was. And now Sarah knows that she's got to get the hell out of there. Ma'am, you just became the most recent star in your own personal horror. hey Sarah decided to slowly head to the front door. By now, Brody is in the living room acting like everything was perfectly fine.
00:27:44
Speaker
So Sarah's confused. Brody was just in labor, she thought. Sarah asked her, did your water break? Brody said, nope, everything is just fine. Sarah's like, what the hell do i do Sarah told her, I think you need to call your doctor.
00:27:57
Speaker
So Brody goes into her room and pretends to call the doctor. And Sarah knew that she was pretending she could tell. So now Sarah is offended. She's like, why the fuck is she lying? I can hear her. What's happening here? No, I'm offended. Why the fuck is Sarah still there? cause she's a good person. Brody's the bedroom. Get the fuck out of the house. But then Brody goes into the dining room.
00:28:17
Speaker
She brings back these coupons. Sarah keeps trying she keeps trying to get Sarah to stay, but Sarah is adamant it's time for her to go. She's trying to be nice about it. no Then Sarah saw the back of one of the coupons, and it said Katie Smith.
00:28:33
Speaker
So Sarah is like, okay. Don't ask. She has the coupons with Katie Smith. She has the inhaler with the name Katie Smith. She keeps telling Sarah that her name is Sarah Brody. Nothing is adding up. Something is wrong. And as Sarah is trying to leave, and Brody has insisted on giving Sarah a hug,
00:28:50
Speaker
And Sarah is pushing her off at this point. That's when Brody pulled out a hunting knife. And she's right there by Sarah. So now Sarah, she's like leaning over Sarah. Sarah's frightened now. So she knocks the knife out of Brody's hands. She pushes Sarah down on the love seat.
00:29:07
Speaker
Sarah landed on her stomach and now Brody jumped onto Sarah's back. And she's hitting Sarah really hard with a dish. She's hitting hitting her in the back of the head.
00:29:17
Speaker
Sarah knew that she was gonna die and she was thinking about everyone who she loved and everybody that loved her. She was thinking about her baby. But then she thought there's no way she's going to lay on the ground and there's no way that she's going to let this woman take her baby away from her.
00:29:33
Speaker
So Sarah used all of the strength that she could muster and she knocked Brody off her back and she started running for the front door. She yanked the front door open, but she couldn't get the screen door to open.
00:29:44
Speaker
Run right through it. Run through it. I'm telling you what. Fuck off. Bulldoze my way through it. It's screen. Dogs do it all the time. I've done it.
00:29:56
Speaker
love your reactions. I'm so unhappy. She yanked the front door open, but she couldn't get the screen door open. And now she can feel Brody's breath on the back of her neck. Sarah's thinking all she has to do is make it out the front door. But Brody starts but banging Sarah's head on the glass door.
00:30:13
Speaker
And Sarah feels Brody put her arm around her neck and pull her back and drag her into the house, drag her back into the house. Brody is screaming at Sarah, you fucking bitch, you're not going to go anywhere. She drags Sarah down the hallway.
00:30:27
Speaker
Brody then knocks Sarah through the doorway and slams the door behind her and knocks Sarah back down onto the ground. Then this is when Sarah starts to fight back.
00:30:38
Speaker
Now Sarah ends up on top of Brody, punching her as hard as she can. She wants to knock her ass out. Sarah was like, she can hurt me all she want, but she's not going to hurt my baby. As Sarah gets off Brody, Brody jumps up to her feet. She's getting closer and closer to Sarah, and she starts brushing the hair out of Sarah's face.
00:30:57
Speaker
Brody says to Sarah, I'm not going to hurt you, but we have to clean up my apartment before my husband gets back. No, no. Why, if she was on top of her trying to punch her unconscious, did she get off of her before she was unconscious? And then also, why is she allowing her to get close enough to brush the hair off a face? This is not making sense. And Sarah is wondering if Brody has a split personality or something.
00:31:20
Speaker
Sarah's like, please, let's just go to the hospital and check on the babies. Anything she could say, she's trying to say to plead with Brody. Like, let's let's get out of here. She's trying to escape. At this point, Brody pulls the knife out again. Sarah knew by now that she was talking to Katie. and There was never a Sarah. like It's Katie.
00:31:39
Speaker
That Katie had been lying about her name this entire time. Oh, my stars. Katie then stabs at Sarah. Sarah grabs the blade of the hunting knife with her hands. Sarah had the blade in her hands and she starts twisting the knife to get it out of Katie's hands.
00:31:54
Speaker
Once she has the knife, she starts swinging at Katie. Sarah didn't want to stab her. She didn't want to hurt her. She just wanted the fuck out of there. Sarah and Katie... Sarah said Katie just keeps coming at her aggressively, so Sarah stabbed her.
00:32:08
Speaker
Sarah thought she stabbed Katie in the shoulder, but Katie fell back onto the love seat. Blood started covering Katie's shirt. Your face.
00:32:23
Speaker
yeah I just clenched. yes Your face was like... Well, because as soon as you said she thought she stabbed her in the shoulder, I was like, oh, no, there's some really important shit right there.
00:32:36
Speaker
i so sorry. Just that I glanced at you for that one second. and Your face said 10,000 things. It was great. Okay. She thought she had stabbed Katie in the shoulder, but Katie fell back onto the love seat.
00:32:48
Speaker
blood started Blood started covering Katie's shirt. Katie looked at her and said, you stabbed me, you fucking bitch. Sarah runs the fuck out of the apartment. She was screaming for help. She flagged down a ah van that was passing by, and then she passed out on the curb.
00:33:04
Speaker
Sarah came to in the hospital, and she was questioned by the police. The police asked Sarah why they thought katie why she thought Katie was pregnant. Sarah told them, because she was. She said, I'm not crazy. I've seen her twice.
00:33:20
Speaker
The police told her, Sarah, that they think she was wearing something to make herself appear pregnant. They told Sarah that Katie didn't make it. Sarah had unknowingly stabbed Katie in a major artery and Katie had bled out. You are that artery. Police found a maternity suit, an umbilical cord clamp, and a surgical kit in Katie's home.
00:33:40
Speaker
Police believe that Katie planned to kill Sarah and remove her unborn child from the womb. according to the authorities katie had faked 11 pregnancies from the eighth grade on she had faked a stillborn delivery she had collected money for funerals family members had gone to her baby showers she was crazy but she was well spoken knew exactly what she was doing sarah said that in the end a grand jury absolved sarah of any crime and deemed that katie's death was an act of self-defense and sarah is now a proud mother
00:34:13
Speaker
This comes from the show i Survived, which is one of my favorite shows. And I wasn't going to say where I got the stuff from at the beginning because it would give it away too fast.
00:34:24
Speaker
So Sarah is now a proud mother. When asked why she survived, she said, i wholeheartedly believe that I survived because of my daughter. I believe that she gave me the strength with God to prevail. And instead of becoming a victim, I became a survivor, and I have to be a survivor for my daughter.
00:34:39
Speaker
And that is the absolutely terrifying story, survival story, of Sarah Brady.
00:34:45
Speaker
Your face in that one moment in time was fantastic. Fantastic. I have a lot of thoughts. what are your thoughts?
00:34:55
Speaker
Let me just preface this with, yeah, I'm glad she's alive. Like, way to be a survivor. way to go, lady. but also... um
00:35:04
Speaker
I don't even know how to say this nicely. I'm trying to be nice because this woman went im through something like horrible and traumatic and horrific and everything. And, you know, I'm judging the fuck out of her right now because so dumb.
00:35:17
Speaker
So she wasn't dumb. I don't think she wasn't dumb. What? She was just pathetic and lonely. Wait, who? Good Sarah. No, good Sarah was nice. Like, good Sarah has the husband and... um No, but that's what I'm saying is why did she need this friend so badly that she was willing to, like, overlook all of these, like, blaring sirens? But in the beginning, there wasn't all the blaring signs. In the beginning, there was just, hey, I've got similar name and maybe the package was delivered to me instead. Mm-hmm.
00:35:46
Speaker
And Good Sarah is a nice person. Like when you watch the I Survive, she's obviously a super nice person that was just a little too trusting. I can relate to Good Sarah.
00:35:57
Speaker
I am never letting you go pick up a package from anyone ever. Ever. You cannot relate to good Sarah. Absolutely not. and like this All of this, all of this, all of this just is like,
00:36:13
Speaker
Do you remember? that so you know when I survived, every episode is three different stories, right? Yes. And the other story on this episode is the story of Ellen from Texas who was stabbed in the head by the ninja in the corner. Yes. And then there's another story on there. It's this couple from Texas who survived a hurricane on the coast of Texas.
00:36:34
Speaker
They have the best Southern accents ever They're like, they're, you can tell they're such good people. you know what I mean? i mean, and that's the thing though, is like, you know, it's kind of just like, there's some different things, right? Like the ellen Ellen that got stabbed in the head by the guy that was hired by her husband to kill her. Like that's a thing, right? Like that's none of her own fault. Mm-hmm. She wasn't just trying to be a good person. She was a good person who was like living her life, just trying to survive day to day. And her husband, ex-husband was a psycho. Yeah.
00:37:07
Speaker
This, like, I mean, from the moment you started, i'm just like warning sirens are blaring. I'm like, no, something's wrong. I also think that's because you know the kind of stories I tell.
00:37:21
Speaker
You know what I mean? They're not going to be fluffy, cute, but jesus no she was genuinely like it could be a mistake that's what you know listen i learned a lot of lessons researching this shit but those things i knew before this story i loved your reactions to that story they were fantastic Fucking, um and honestly, as soon as you said she thought she stabbed her on the shoulder, I knew exactly where she got her.
00:37:52
Speaker
Yeah. Danger zone. Look at that face. Right there. oh God. There you go. Okay, well. Get some emotions of Sarah. Sarah, I'm glad that you survived. Sarah's fucking amazing. That's great. Her kid, but now, that was 2005.
00:38:08
Speaker
Her kid this month would be. Twenty- One. so This month? Yeah. home no Time goes by. Time marched his own.
00:38:20
Speaker
Then like Dolly said, then you realize it's marching across your face. Well, um ah this one. OK, so I'm going to tell you a story. OK.
00:38:34
Speaker
It's kind of out of like my normal wheelhouse because there's a lot of speculation and rumors still surrounding the case. um You know I normally like something that's like well packaged. There's the answer. like There's the thing. There's the solution. like That's it.
00:38:54
Speaker
This is a story of an average American boy who found the spotlight in a case that captivated the nation and the world at large.
00:39:02
Speaker
I know you know it too. I'm i'm like, I'm sitting here I'm like ready. I'm ready. Michael Iver Peterson. Michael Peterson. who Was born just outside of Nashville, Tennessee in October, 1943.
00:39:17
Speaker
Average childhood, nothing to stand out. Grew up, graduated from Duke University with a bachelor's in poli-sci. While in school, he was the editor of the school newspaper and the president of his fraternity.
00:39:30
Speaker
He took courses at the law school at UNC Chapel Hill. After graduation, he started working for the DOD, doing research related to military involvement in Vietnam.
00:39:41
Speaker
He then got stationed in Germany, and while there, he met and married Patricia Suh, So the DOD the Department of de Defense? Yes. Yes. Which now doesn't exist because it's the Department War. Department of War. Department of
00:39:56
Speaker
So back then, when it still existed, he was part of the DOD. Stationed in Germany. He met Patricia Sue. They married. They had two kids, Todd and Clayton. Patricia Sue.
00:40:07
Speaker
pat Patricia sue She was a school teacher. Miss Patricia Sue. After graduation, he began, oh no, I did that already. 1968, he was commissioned in the Marine Corps, served in Vietnam.
00:40:20
Speaker
He was honorably discharged with the rank of captain in 1971 after a car crash left him permanently disabled. The car crash was unrelated to his military service. So wait, what branch was he in? Marine Corps. Okay. Okay.
00:40:34
Speaker
The Peterson family stayed in Germany for a few years and befriended Elizabeth and George Ratliff, along with their two daughters. George passed away, and the Petersons became even closer with the remaining Ratliff women.
00:40:46
Speaker
When Elizabeth tragically died, Michael took in her daughters and became their guardian. In 1987, Michael and Patricia divorced. Their sons initially stayed with Patricia, while Michael and the Ratliff girls moved to Durham, North Carolina. 1989... sorry.
00:41:03
Speaker
oh sorry In 1989, Michael moved in with a woman named Kathleen Atwater. Do you know this? I think so. Okay. Maybe. When the pair married in 1997, Kathleen's daughter became the fifth child in the blended family.
00:41:29
Speaker
Peterson became a successful writer. He wrote three novels about his experiences Vietnam, and then he also became a newspaper columnist who was known for his criticisms of the police and the Durham County District Attorney.
00:41:42
Speaker
Two years after their marriage, in December of 2001, Kathleen Peterson was dead. In the early morning hours of December 9th, 911 received a frantic call from Michael Peterson that he had just found his wife Kathleen unconscious in their home.
00:41:57
Speaker
He claimed that she must have fallen down the stairs because she had had Valium and alcohol. Mm-hmm. Kathleen's autopsy showed a lot of injuries.
00:42:09
Speaker
She had a fracture to the left thyroid cartilage, seven lacerations to the top of the and back of her scalp that didn't really fit with the story of injuries sustained from a fall downstairs. Michael Peterson was immediately suspected of being involved in this very suspicious thing Because he's the husband.
00:42:25
Speaker
Well, duh. And he was also the only human in the house at the time. His family, including Kathleen's daughter, Caitlin, and Kathleen's sister, Cadence, were very supportive of Michael, and they stood by him as he ah denied any involvement.
00:42:40
Speaker
The forensics in the case were a fucking hot mess, okay? Okay. Medical examiner Deborah Radish concluded that Kathleen had died from multiple lacerations to her scalp that seemed to be caused by repeated blows with a light, rigid weapon. However, the defense claimed that it was impossible that these lacerations were the result of any types of blow to the head because there was no underlying bruising, swelling, bleeding, or brain hemorrhage.
00:43:05
Speaker
the defense team hired forensic The defense team hired forensic expert Henry Lee, who testified that the blood spatter evidence was consistent with an accidental fall down the flight of stairs.
00:43:16
Speaker
Police investigators concluded the exact opposite. The SBI, with which is the Bureau of and the the Investigation for the state, um the analyst who testified reportedly had been mentored by bloodstain specialist named David Spittle.
00:43:34
Speaker
He had worked 500 bloodstain cases, written 200 reports, and testified in 60 cases. So dude's got a really, really impressive resume. As the investigation proceeded, details about the tragic death of Elizabeth Ratliff came to light.
00:43:49
Speaker
In 1985, Elizabeth had reportedly but reportedly been found dead at the foot of her stairs. so this is, for me, one of those things that, okay, when like when his current wife dies by falling down the stairs, you think, well, maybe he didn't do it And then like you look into his past, and then she was found at the bottom of his... With multiple injuries to the head. Yeah.
00:44:18
Speaker
The case had been investigated by the German police and the United States military police. Her death had been caused by an intracerebral hemorrhage secondary to a clotting disorder known as von Willebrand's disease.
00:44:31
Speaker
Initially and for many years, her death was ruled as natural causes. The coroner believed that Elizabeth had been like a ticking time bomb and suffered from a spontaneous head bleed. or hemorrhagic stroke, and then died at the top of her stairs and then fell down the stairs.
00:44:49
Speaker
However, the Durham court exhumed Ratliff's embalmed body and performed a second autopsy. The defense tried to argue and they were like, fuck that. She's buried in Texas. Let the Texas coroner do the autopsy. Like, fine. But they transported her ass all the way back to cal or to Carolina and did it there.
00:45:12
Speaker
So, um the new autopsy and additional witness testimony supported overturning the initial reported cause of death, and Elizabeth's death was officially ruled a homicide.
00:45:28
Speaker
According to reports, the Peterson family had been over at Elizabeth's house for dinner on the night, the last night of her life. After dinner, Michael stayed to help clean up and put the kids to bed.
00:45:39
Speaker
But then, like, didn't they, i maybe speaking ahead, but, like, they went outside. They had, like, he smoked a cigar outside. they had a chill evening outside, right? Different. Okay.
00:45:50
Speaker
Her body was discovered the next morning by the nanny. Michael Peterson was the last person to see her alive. Okay. Okay. Although it was a hell of a bombshell of new information, the prosecution prosecution chose not to charge Michael with her death.
00:46:05
Speaker
But they did introduce the death as evidence to support that even if that had been an accident, which they now ruled it wasn't, Michael would have had knowledge of how to fake an accident like Kathleen's.
00:46:21
Speaker
The trial was just as messy as the forensics. Michael Peterson's personal life was thrown out into the open and prosecutors never let up on attacking his credibility. Michael had taken it upon himself to claim that he had received numerous injuries and medals during his time in the military, including...
00:46:37
Speaker
shrapnel wounds and injuries, et cetera, et cetera. And his discharge was because of wounds obtained in the war when in reality it was a car crash over when he was visiting in Japan, you know, completely unrelated to his service. And then during the 1999 mayoral election in Durham, Peterson claimed to receive a silver star, a bronze star with valor and two purple hearts. There was never a single shred of paperwork or documentation ever found to prove he had received these awards. Mm-hmm.
00:47:07
Speaker
So he did not. No. So it's just weird. He's not setting himself up for a great things here. Right. Right. ah The prosecution also brought to light Michael's quote, secret gay life.
00:47:22
Speaker
They argued that Kathleen would have been devastated and disturbed to find out about his sexuality. There was evidence of more than 2,000 explicit images of men on Michael's computer and email exchanges between Michael and a young male escort that he had met months prior and was making plans to reconnect with.
00:47:40
Speaker
The defense obviously argued the exact opposite. They claimed that Kathleen was fully aware of Michael's bisexuality and accepted it They reported the marriage was happy and this claim was supported by family and friends. They had no idea.
00:47:55
Speaker
But In learning about his bisexuality and the autopsy finding, Caitlin and Cadence, Kathleen's family, who had fully supported him up to this point, were like, nah, fuck off.
00:48:08
Speaker
And they separated themselves from the family entirely because they both testified that Kathleen never would have accepted him. So they they did not know. They didn't know. Okay. Okay.
00:48:19
Speaker
Kathleen's closest sister and her daughter. it Did not know. Didn't know that he was gay, bisexual, that he had extramarital affairs, which was the the whole premise of Michael's defense was that she knew everything and she was totally okay with him sleeping with whoever, whenever, didn't matter. Hmm.
00:48:38
Speaker
There was also a very impressive $1.4 million dollar life insurance policy on Kathleen because she was this super successful high up exec from Nortel. Okay.
00:48:53
Speaker
I mean, what more motive do you need? Yeah. So it was thrown around at one point that the likely murder weapon or what had caused her to fall down the stairs were those blows to the head by the light rigid object. And they identified it as a custom made fireplace poker that was called a blow poke.
00:49:12
Speaker
Candace had gifted it to the Petersons just like the year prior for Christmas. But after Kathleen's death, it was mysteriously absent from the home where it had a home in front of the fireplace.
00:49:25
Speaker
Later in the trial, it was produced as evidence. The defense team pulled it up and they were like, but look, here it is. Like it was never missing. It had been in the garage. So why was the blow poke in the garage? There's no fireplace in the garage. Yeah. But they were like, yeah, can't have been the murder weapon. It's right here. right here Hello.
00:49:40
Speaker
Right. um So as this is, this one really gets me. As the trial continued, a new theory popped up surrounding Kathleen's death. Yeah, I remember this one. Uh-huh. It's fucking batty.
00:49:57
Speaker
it's in some ways. but So apparently, the Peterson's neighbor, a Mr. T Pollard. It's a real hoot. It's a hoot. ah So Mr. Pollard, he was the the Peterson's neighbor. He happened to be an attorney, which he he was not involved in the case at all. He just happened to be an attorney who decided to stick his fucking nose in the business.
00:50:21
Speaker
So he tells the police, I think that Kathleen had been outside and was attacked by a fucking owl. I would love to have been in a room with the police when he tells them this. Like, I think she was attacked by an owl, guys. So she was attacked by an owl, and then she runs inside and slips running up the stairs.
00:50:40
Speaker
Some cop. Okay. Some old cop said, that's a real- Fuck this guy. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck off. Fuck him. So, but here's the thing, though, is, right? Like, so- According to this this theory, Michael would still have been outside at their pool because that's what they had been doing. They'd been at the pool, having a glass of wine, etc. And then Kathleen reportedly went inside and Michael stayed outside. So if Kathleen, for some fucking reason, decided to go outside again because she'd gone in, she comes back outside for no reason.
00:51:12
Speaker
She wasn't smoking. She fucking gets attacked by an owl. Doesn't make a sound or a peep or a hoot. Okay. Doesn't make a sound while she's so like dying from this owl attack, runs inside and manages to not make any commotion.
00:51:27
Speaker
So Michael is unaware of this, crazy battle that's happening it was a huge house right it was a huge house but she was outside so you're telling me that if i'm getting attacked by an owl that is leaving gouges in my scalp yeah and chasing me because the theory continues that the owl will continue to cling to her into the house you're telling me i'm not gonna make enough sound for you to hear me because i can guarantee you i'm gonna be screaming here's sam being crazy again Like, I'm telling you. Come on. She's screaming and owls attacking me. It's totally normal.
00:52:01
Speaker
Everything's good. fine. I'm just going keep drinking my wine. It's normal. It's normal. just going to sit out here mind my own business. Not worry about my wife that I love, that I have a great relationship with. Completely unconcerned. He paid the owl. He paid the owl. He paid off the goddamn owl.
00:52:17
Speaker
So um they they did find evidence of a microscopic feather and a small piece of what appeared to be wood that may have been from a tree. Okay. Okay. in tangled hair that Kathleen had in her hand that looked as though she had pulled it out by the roots. So Pollard's like, well, fucking duh.
00:52:43
Speaker
She's fighting the owl. She pulls her hair out. She gets a feather and she gets a fucking splinter from the tree. Like, duh. that It's definitely the fucking owl. Okay. So Pollard somehow gets access to the evidence list from the North Carolina state Bureau of investigation, SBI. Yeah. um And so then he's like, well, there's, there's gotta to be more evidence.
00:53:03
Speaker
They didn't give it all. So the prosecution and the medical examiner disputed the outrageous claim and they were like, the fuck? Absolutely not. The wounds on her scalp were not made by an owl or any other bird. Okay.
00:53:16
Speaker
But remember that video that you showed me of that lady that was like mowing her grass and the snake and the bird went down for the snake. Oh my God. Peggy Sue. Peggy Sue. I mean, Peggy Sue got fucked up by that bird, but that was a hawk. Okay.
00:53:28
Speaker
So Peggy Sue in this video, it's one of my favorite news stories of whatever year this was. She's riding her lawnmower and then suddenly a snake falls out of the sky and starts wrapping around Peggy Sue's arm. Well, that's not enough because then suddenly a hawk descends out of the air and starts fighting with the snake on Peggy Sue's arm. On her arm. And the snake is spitting venom.
00:53:53
Speaker
Peggy Sue had sunglasses on so the venom didn't get into her eyes. And the hawk grabs the snake and the hawk takes off with the snake. Yeah. Apparently the snake was in the hawk's mouth. Yeah. And it dropped it. and Yeah. But that's what I'm saying. Like, maybe this isn't totally wrong. Maybe the owl thought that Kathleen's head was a fucking rat. I don't know. What owl was eating?
00:54:15
Speaker
yeah Yeah, he was pissed. He grabbed the stick, took it in, started beating her with It's a fucking angry owl. True So, yeah. So, I mean, that gives me pause enough to say, you know what? Maybe it's not crazy. I don't know owls like that. i mean, right you know. They normally mind their own damn business. Unless pissed.
00:54:34
Speaker
I mean, I've never met a pissed owl. i don't If you meet one, you let me know. pretend like they're bad, Sarah, and I walk away from an owl. Okay. Oh my gosh. Okay. So Michael claimed that Kathleen was heavily intoxicated. Okay. He's like, yeah, she was fucking wasted. She was, she all did all the volume and the wine. She's what a lush, right?
00:54:54
Speaker
But her toxicology didn't support that. Her blood alcohol was 0.07, which is not even legally intoxicated. You can still drive with this. Okay. And they were able to determine that she took between five and 10 milligrams of Valium. Okay. So also not a lot. And Not a lot. Okay. So the police, they had taken the wine bottle and the glasses that were on the kitchen counter because Michael was like, yeah, she's been drinking that. But there wasn't a single fucking fingerprint on them.
00:55:25
Speaker
Not Kathleen, not Michael, none. So why was the wine bottle, why were the glasses wiped clean? What? what And why would Michael claim that that's what she was drinking? Right. Okay. So, um, and also she's probably taken Valium before. She's got a prescription for it exactly Like it's probably common. And the more you take, like the more you can. Yeah.
00:55:45
Speaker
Yeah. It's not like we give 10 milligrams of Valium to people who have back pain, you know, like it's, yeah. So, um, And then some of the blood that they noted on her scalp was actually like that the blood had in some places clotted and dried and like there was inconsistencies with like what the blood sp splatter was and the smears and then her crusted blood in some places. So they were, it kind of indicated that the timeline didn't match Michael's story either. You know, so on October 10th, 2003, after one of the longest trials in North Carolina history, the jury found Peterson guilty of Kathleen's murder. He was sentenced to life without parole.
00:56:29
Speaker
In October 2002, Caitlin had filed a wrongful death claim against Peterson because she was like, you know what, even if he doesn't get convicted of her murder, I'm still, I'm still filing this. So good for her because good for her. So, and that's a civil suit. Okay. So felonious murder and then her civil suit. So in June, 2006,
00:56:52
Speaker
We're kind of like bouncing over here in time frame. So in June 2006, he filed for bankruptcy. And then just two leader weeks later, Caitlin was like, fuck you and your bankruptcy. I object to this, which who knew you could do that. And by February of 2007, Caitlin and Peterson settled on a wrongful death claim for $25 million. dollars That was later finalized in 2008. Um,
00:57:12
Speaker
um But flashback, April 2006, Michael's defense team filed for an appeal claiming he did not get a fair trial because of repeated judicial mistakes. That appeal was denied, but not unanimously. And because it was not unanimous, Peterson was allowed to appeal to the Supreme Court, which he did, obviously, in September of 2007.
00:57:32
Speaker
The Supreme Court upheld and affirmed the decision of the previous appeals. He had now exhausted his appeals at this point. In November 2008, his lawyers filed a motion for a new trial claiming three things.
00:57:44
Speaker
One, the prosecution withheld exculpatory evidence about the blow poke. I don't know what they did. They never exp expanded expounded upon that. Two, the prosecution used an expert witness with questionable qualifications. So, yeah, like really questionable. We'll get to that. Okay.
00:58:00
Speaker
And three, one of ah the jurors based his judgment on racial racial factors. So in March 2009, the motion was denied by the Durham County Superior Court. um In August 2010, there was an investigation into the SBI that resulted in the suspension of an analyst who had been a principal witness against Peterson.
00:58:22
Speaker
Neighbor Pollard inserted himself back into the case and filed affidavits. The judge was like, fuck off, dude. And he barred him from sticking his nose where it didn't belong because it wasn't his fucking case. He wasn't Peterson's defense lawyer or nothing.
00:58:36
Speaker
um But Peterson's original attorney kind of like got the hint. And so he filed a new motion challenging the SBI testimony. In January 2011, the lab analyst, Dwayne Deaver, was fired from the SBI after findings suggested he falsely represented evidence in 34 cases, one of which included withholding a negative result that resulted in the murder conviction and imprisonment of a man for 17 years.
00:59:06
Speaker
A bloodstain analysis team that was set up and trained by Deaver was then suspended and disbanded. Peterson was released from the Nash Correctional Institution on December 16th, 2011 and ordered to be under electronic house arrest.
00:59:20
Speaker
As it turns out, that SBI expert with all of his glorious experience was full of shit. So he said that the specialist who had trained him, Spittel, actually had no idea who this dude was and he never had any memory of mentoring him.
00:59:38
Speaker
The Peterson case was only his third ever time testifying, testifying despite the claim that he had been in 60 cases. And apparently he'd only ever written 47 reports instead of the 500 that he claimed.
00:59:52
Speaker
So bail for Peterson was set to $300,000 and he was released with a tracking anglet. In July 2014, Peterson's bond restrictions were eased and plans were in the works for a new trial.
01:00:07
Speaker
Peterson's new lawyer filed a request for the second trial to be dismissed in light of the new development that any evidence collected after Dwayne Deaver arrived on the scene would be inadmissible in court for the new trial.
01:00:20
Speaker
So the new defense team is like, okay, well, solid. They're going to have nothing. So they're very confident. However, the court's like, no, we're going to give it a try. Prosecution wants to continue. Like we're going to let them try and make this case however they can. Right.
01:00:37
Speaker
However, in November 2016, the defense request was refused and a new trial was set to begin in May 2017. However, by February 2017, there was a notice that an agreement had been reached between Durham County District Attorney and Michael Peterson.
01:00:56
Speaker
On February 24th, 2017, Michael Peterson entered an Alford plea to voluntary manslaughter of Kathleen Peterson. This plea allows a defendant to assert his innoence or her innocence while agreeing that there is enough evidence that could result in a guilty verdict if taken to court. So basically, he was not convinced that he would win.
01:01:23
Speaker
and the prosecution was also not secure enough in their case after the Deaver evidence was all taken away. so they were willing to say... you know what, fine.
01:01:35
Speaker
We're not gonna call you guilty of first degree murder, um but we're still gonna find you guilty of something. I just think it's kind of a whole, it's just a whole, that whole thing just gives me skeeps.
01:01:49
Speaker
So he was sentenced to a maximum of 86 months in prison, which he received credit for time served. And at this point, Peterson already served 99 months in prison and was not required to serve any additional prison time.
01:02:00
Speaker
The case sparked international intrigue. In all, there were 12 shows or movies made about the case, nine podcasts, and four books. Episodes of other crime dramas like Rizzoli and Isles even use a version of this story in their writing. Hmm.
01:02:18
Speaker
So what does it mean though? You know, is it this weird coincidence that a man who had secrets and lies of his own was present or associated with two tragic accidents involving women found in a bloody mess of the bottom of the staircase? mean, come.
01:02:31
Speaker
Okay. Is he guilty or just unlucky? Yeah. Is there some crazy ass attack owl out there in the wildness of North Carolina who's responsible for the death of a successful, skilled businesswoman and beloved mother and sister?
01:02:45
Speaker
Was there also an owl over in Germany who can claim the same involvement in Elizabeth's case? I mean, i hear those German owls are like fucking angry.
01:02:57
Speaker
Maybe it's a whole conspiracy. It really is. Oh, God. Was it the mysterious and exceptionally talented or stealthy intruder that took absolutely nothing and only came to claim Kathleen's life like Michael's brother suggested? Because, of course, it was an intruder.
01:03:14
Speaker
no one else in the house. it was definitely somebody broken to the house, pushed her down the stairs. But didn't leave any DNA. Didn't leave any DNA, no evidence, took nothing. Just killed her. Just killed her by pushing her down the stairs, of all things.
01:03:29
Speaker
So the whole thing is fucking hinky. All right. The case presented a huge controversy surrounding the reliability of certain forensic evidence tools like blood splatter analysis and forensic pathology.
01:03:41
Speaker
Experts on both sides for both areas of interest were able to evaluate the crime scene reconstructions and autoy ah autopsy and came to completely contradictory conclusions. right yeah i mean they set up they did the whole reconstructions you know either they set up like fake crime rooms and zones and they fucking bashed sponges and watermelons and like did the whole thing and each of them was able to look at their results and be like who well duh look it's falling down the stairs or duh this is murder so how are he which one's conclusive you know
01:04:16
Speaker
So the involvement and admission of character evidence, like his bisexuality and extramarital extramarital affairs, was also called into question on the relevance of the supposed crimes. It was a sensational example of the concept of reasonable doubt simply by offering an alternative theory.
01:04:31
Speaker
Like a fucking owl. That's all it took was to create enough reasonable doubt. Okay. And then obviously the appeals process was an intense and complex part of this. Most importantly, the case highlighted the importance of the expert witness credibility.
01:04:47
Speaker
And then the concepts like the Alfred plea and the involvement of the media were high on the list of things to talk about regarding this case. So there's no kind of closure in this, right? You know, Kathleen's family is still up in the air. He's got this Alfred plea. So he's saying, no, I didn't do it. I'm still innocent.
01:05:01
Speaker
But he's also being found guilty of something. So there's there's no answer. um Since his plea deal in 2017, Michael Peterson sold the house that he shared with Kathleen.
01:05:12
Speaker
He got $2 million dollars for it He broke up with a girlfriend that he had dated from 2004 to through the entire fucking post-murder bullshit. Okay?
01:05:22
Speaker
She started dating him when he was accused of murder. Cringe. Right. People are fucking weird. He moved back in with his first wife, Patricia, who subsequently died.
01:05:34
Speaker
He wrote two books about his case, and he's been interviewed many times. In some of the interviews, he bashes the TV shows about his case. In others, he praised the productions and acknowledged how instrumental they were in the release from prison.
01:05:47
Speaker
Overall, Michael blames homophobia and poor decisions about media coverage on things like the exhumation and the repeat autopsy for Elizabeth Ratliff for the eight years that he was forced to serve in prison.
01:05:59
Speaker
Thanks to the additional civil action filed against him by Caitlin after his release, Michael cannot benefit from any of the money made from anything related to the case. So every show, every book, anything that even he writes, he gets nothing from it. All of that money is either donated to charity or goes to Caitlin as part of the wrongful death payout.
01:06:17
Speaker
His son, Todd, who stood through ah everything strongly by his side, has since changed his opinion. After the death of his mother, Patricia, he accused Michael of both the murders of Kathleen and Elizabeth, and then he also faulted him for the death of Patricia, claiming that he waited three hours while she was having a heart attack before he called 911. Oh, no.
01:06:42
Speaker
no So Todd is like, fuck this guy. I'm out. And fully his his, like. And that's his son. that's his That is his blood son, you know. Jeez.
01:06:55
Speaker
um The other kids are all kind of living their own lives. They've all had different reactions to the limelight. Some of them who wanted to go into acting or whatever have had troubles doing that. Others have completely avoided all of the speculation everything afterwards. Most of them are all like relocated, living living decent lives, and have not spoken out publicly against the case or any of the stuff that has come out afterwards. And as of December 2025, Michael Peterson lives in a modest two-bedroom, single-story apartment in North Carolina, free as a bird.
01:07:27
Speaker
Wow. Not being able to profit. wonder what he does. I mean, he's fucking old as dirt. and This was a long time ago. Yeah.
01:07:38
Speaker
But the staircase came out like in 2020 or something. So the original one was actually done by a French producer and he started recording and and making his show in 2002, 2003, like right after that whole thing started and he went through the whole thing. Okay. Okay. But the HBO series The Staircase. Well, the first one is also called The Staircase. Oh, okay. So HBO made The Staircase based off of the French thing. And that one just came Didn't the first person that did the show, they followed him around? Yes.
01:08:15
Speaker
In the trial. They did the whole, and yes. Yeah. Yeah, so then The Staircase, the HBO like dramatization of it came out a handful of years ago. When you said North Carolina, in my mind, I went to the Murdoch case. But that's South Carolina. So in the beginning, I was like, what was their name? Is this the one that she's telling? The Murdoch murders.
01:08:37
Speaker
Fucking rich people. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, not really. There's no resolution. and I'm not really happy with it because Caitlin, I mean, Kathleen is still dead. Caitlin's still without a mother. Candace and her other sister is like, you know, so it's not.
01:08:52
Speaker
It's not pleasing to me. i wonder where the guy got the owl theory. Because there happened to be barred owls in North Carolina. and Oh, but the other thing the other thing is that the owl theory has yet to be officially proven or accepted, right? Right. People can speculate all they want. Even after Michael Peterson paid for his own fucking bird expert.
01:09:17
Speaker
Wow. The results of that were never released. So come the fuck on. Because he wanted to, his defense attorney was like, hire this person and like, let him do some analysis of these scratch marks and like prove that it was a barred owl that attacked her.
01:09:33
Speaker
But we never saw the results of that. Yeah. Fuck this guy. Fuck those owls. No. Not the owls. Yeah, I'd take it back. I'd take the owls over this dude any day.
01:09:47
Speaker
That's a crazy story. It's fucking weird. And it's just... And again, it's one those things... He's either the most unlucky man... There's no chance, man. There's no chance. In the world, or he did it.
01:10:02
Speaker
There's no chance. Yeah. What a crazy story. And I knew that story many years ago, but the details... Yeah. That was a good one. It's just messy. You know, there was no... there was no There was enough reasonable doubt because the the evidence, they kept coming up on totally different sides. And if that motherfucker Deaver hadn't been involved, you just wonder, like, what could they have accomplished? Like, prosecution wouldn't have settled for the Alfred plea.
01:10:29
Speaker
They would have taken it back to court. Well, Deaver, once they found out he lied, they had to go back through all of his cases. All of them. Every single case that he worked on, he had to they had to go back and i don't know what they had to do, but I'm sure helped. Review all of the evidence and and figure out like how much did he fuck up all these people's lives.
01:10:50
Speaker
Wow. It's a crazy story.
01:10:54
Speaker
That's insane. I thought that was a lot more recent than 2000 and whatever. Murdered in 2001. Ooh. And I stand by that, man. There ain't no fucking way.
01:11:05
Speaker
What's your opinion? It ain't a fucking L. It was this motherfucker. Two women dead at the bottom of the stairs with multiple head injuries that are not consistent. Like, a second fucking autopsy was performed on this woman. Yeah.
01:11:16
Speaker
And you can get an intracerebral hemorrhage from falling down a flight of fucking stairs. Stairs. I'm just saying. Wild. No way, Michael Peterson. Fuck you and your stupid lies and your stupid books. mean, even the sign...
01:11:29
Speaker
Your own flesh and blood was like, ah i was OK with you fucking around with other people's lives, but you killed my mom. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I mean, and that's that is yeah.
01:11:42
Speaker
Fucking crazy. So he served the time. Eight years. Yeah. Eight years. OK. Oh. oh geez unsatisfying unsatisfying yeah and and the thing is is that you want to know definitively what happened in that and we're never going to know because it was only him and kathleen in the house except for the owl or the intruder, obviously. um And unless something new comes out with like technological advances or something where they can like pin down an actual recreation of what happened.
01:12:24
Speaker
like But you, you listen to these expert testimonies, like the people that are blood spatter at like experts and all that kind of stuff. Like,
01:12:31
Speaker
They both give compelling arguments and they both give compelling explanations as to how it does or how it does not fit with just falling down the stairs. I mean, their their whole thing was that she slipped and fell running from this owl.
01:12:48
Speaker
And then... Was unconscious for some period of time and woke back up and tried to climb up the stairs and was so intoxicated and had this head injury so that she kept falling down the stairs again. she was not intoxicated. She wasn't. She was not intoxicated. Period. had a normal small dose of Valium in her system. Yeah. Again, having been someone who probably took it more often than once because she had her prescription for it and what, 0.07 is not even a full glass of wine, right? Yeah.
01:13:19
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. Well, good job. Good story. So unhappy. Yeah. But okay. Damn, unsatisfying. I know. want to know exactly what happened in there. know. I'm sorry. that's what this For everyone out there who's like, oh, do this story. This is why we can't do Unsolved. This is why we can't do mysteries that are still like up in the air because it's not it doesn't make me happy.
01:13:41
Speaker
And everything we say is really just our opinion. oh entirely. Yeah. Only our opinions. If we guess at anything, it's just conjecture. and Conjecture! Let's save ourselves. you know what It's all alleged. Everything is alleg alleged.
01:13:58
Speaker
Allegedly alleged. Allegedly the owl was pissed. He came right for her. God damn. I mean, fuck this lady Kathleen. There's some bad people out there.
01:14:09
Speaker
Fucking bad Sarah. That Sarah was bad. was fucking crazy. um Yeah, that's it, people. We've given you a show. That was a good show. I enjoyed that one.
01:14:19
Speaker
Rate us. Review us. Give us some likes. Give us some love. Share us with your friends friends and not family. Yes. And remember, we are here for a good time. Not a long time. Bye.
01:14:32
Speaker
Really quickly, before we end the show, what you want what do you say we want to say happy birthday to our best friend, Kayla. Right?
01:14:43
Speaker
Happy motherfucking birthday. Happy motherfucking birthday, Kayla. Yes. And so now we will end the show. But happy birthday, Kayla. We love you.
01:14:56
Speaker
Bye.