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S2: E1: Momentum shift - From private pain to Public healing. Recapping our journey and the road ahead.
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Welcome back to The Miscarriage Rebellion! Season 2 launches with a powerful catch-up, reflecting on significant organizational milestones and deep personal journeys. The hosts celebrate major advancements in the early pregnancy loss space, particularly for Pink Elephants, which has secured crucial federal government funding. Host Stacey officially joins the organization, now running the Grief and Grace program, offering new hope and bringing her professional expertise to the community.
Stacey shares the challenging context of her journey: she was pregnant with her "rainbow baby," Sonny, while recording Season 1, a pregnancy that followed seven miscarriages and involved the loss of a twin. She explains that the decision to share her story now reflects the reality that there is no "right time" to share, especially when grief is compounded by multiple losses. This vulnerability highlights the immense courage and resilience required to navigate the acute anxiety of Pregnancy After Loss (PAL) while working in the space.
Our hosts emphasize that the emotional fallout from loss often infiltrates parenting after loss, causing heightened fear. Sam shares her personal experience, noting that while she struggled with dissociation and anxiety after her first baby, seeking early support in her subsequent pregnancy profoundly shifted her experience. This demonstrated that timely support can help parents process trauma and reclaim the time that felt stolen by the continuous cycle of loss.
As they look ahead, Sam and Stacey confirm that Season 2 will focus on amplifying diverse voices, and affirm the importance of emotional literacy, and providing peer support as essential tools for validating the miscarriage experience and transforming the grieving process.
EARLY PREGNANCY LOSS SUPPORT
If you or someone you know has experienced miscarriage or early pregnancy loss, please know you are not alone.
- For crisis support, please call Lifeline - 13 11 14.
- Access all our support
- Connect through Live Chat with Peer Support
- Join Online Communities
- Call out Pregnancy Loss helpline delivered by PANDA
- Join the Circle of support
- Follow @pinkelephantssupport on Instagram.
STACEY JUNE LEWIS
You can follow our host Stacey on her personal Instagram account where she shares some of her lived experience.
Pink Elephants thanks the Australian Government for their support in funding this podcast series under the Miscarriage Support grant.
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Transcript
Introducing 'The Miscarriage Rebellion'
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the miscarriage rebellion. I am Stacey June Lewis, lead of the Pink Elephant Support Network group counseling program, Grief and Grace. And along with Pink Elephant's co-founder and CEO, Sam Payne, through this podcast, we will share the stories of many Australians who have lost their babies to early pregnancy loss.
00:00:21
Speaker
With evidence and empathy, we unpack the shame, blame and stigma and lack of support that they may face. This is a loss that has been silenced for far too long and we deserve better. We are here to normalize the conversation and to make lasting change.
Season 2 Launch: Personal Reflections and Milestones
00:00:36
Speaker
Welcome back to the second season of The Miscarriage Rebellion.
00:00:41
Speaker
We are launching season two with a very powerful catch up between Sam and I, celebrating huge organizational milestones like securing federal government funding, as well as sharing deep personal reflections. It's a vulnerable one. I discuss officially joining Pink Elephants and share the challenging reality of recording season one while pregnant with my now rainbow baby, Sunny.
00:01:04
Speaker
While Sam shares the complexities in parenting after loss and the importance of seeking support. This episode is a raw look at the acute anxiety of pregnancy after loss and how unresolved trauma can infiltrate parenting after loss and the immense courage it takes to share the story.
00:01:21
Speaker
Join us as we reflect on the power of timely support and our commitment to amplifying diverse voices
Two Years of Advocacy and Change
00:01:27
Speaker
this season. Welcome back to season two of the miscarriage rebellion. Oh my goodness.
00:01:32
Speaker
How are we here? ah When you said we were recording two years ago, i cannot. I know it sounds really boomery and full on to be like, two years, where's time going? But honestly. true though two years.
00:01:44
Speaker
July, August, 2023, we recorded and we launched in the October 2023 season. That has flown by and so much has happened in this space. Yeah, I was thinking the exact same thing because so much happens in general, um for sure. But in a space, um and when we say space, we are talking about miscarriage, early pregnancy loss space.
Joining Pink Elephant: A New Role
00:02:06
Speaker
um So much has happened fee for the organization. Yes. So much has happened for my work in this space as well and and developed um in the organization and beyond as well.
00:02:17
Speaker
um So I now work for Pink Elephant. Can you believe? I mean, are we were always working together um collaboratively because, you know, our message has always been very, um you know, connected. Yeah, shared mission. Yeah. But, um yeah, officially I now take on the PEBS program, which is um the Pink Elephant Bereavement Support Program. So things have really progressed ah in this relationship and also with the organization. yeah do you want to talk a bit about that before we get into this episode? Yeah, sure. So we thought what we'd do on this episode is play catch up a little bit because a lot has happened to your point.
Federal Funding and Resource Expansion
00:02:55
Speaker
And so Pink Elephants has now finally received federal government funding.
00:03:01
Speaker
I cannot even like, it's just such a joy to now be where we are. And it's not the hard slog that found in this organization really was for the first eight years doing all of this on such scarce resources, but knowing there was such a huge need, just, they didn't meet. And it was so hard to hold that tension for so long. personally for you. Yeah. And then now to be here. And as we're actually recording this, I've got the whole team flying into Sydney from all over Australia. And we've got a whole session day tomorrow. And I just feel really proud of where we are now and really excited about the change and the support that we can make happen
00:03:40
Speaker
going forward and yeah to your point you're now working at Pink Elephants and yeah we've always worked on projects together. um But when we met I was a radio broadcaster so now coming in with um obviously we're able to do this project together which is such a beautiful merge as I said in season one of the two um interests and kind of career paths that have crossed over.
Isolation and Teamwork in Advocacy
00:04:01
Speaker
But I think specifically what I've observed in you um as now a colleague but as a friend has been this you know, trajectory of kind of isolation in this mission. Like whilst I have been in that journey, as many people have shared that, you really have spearheaded this to not only now be able to appreciate working with a team. but But what a team does for this mission is, I think, the real interesting and probably exciting is often a tricky word to use, but it is exciting in terms of being able to offer support that you have always seen to be paramount and important.
00:04:36
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And I think that's, I guess, a real, yeah, just a real kind of exhale moment for you and for all of us. Completely firm. It is. There's a moment of pride and so much more blossoming hope now for the
Season 2 Focus: Research and Expert Collaboration
00:04:50
Speaker
future. And I guess that's something that we also want to focus on season two of this.
00:04:54
Speaker
We want to go deeper into some of the research into this space. We want to speak to some lived experience. We want to share more stories because there's so many more stories that need to be told in this space and and and held space for to be heard, truly deeply heard.
00:05:07
Speaker
We also want to bring in more experts to share the work that they're doing in this space. and Pink Elephants is not the only organization working um alongside the needs of women in this community. And what some of you who listened to season one may not be aware is that Stacy actually found out she was pregnant as we were recording season
Sharing Personal Stories: Timing and Compassion
00:05:29
Speaker
one. um a I've said this to you before, but it's being able to say it this way as well. It's the courage and the resilience that you had to still be able to put yourself in this space for the benefit of others and to tell those stories and to hear those stories whilst so profoundly being in it and actually walking that anxiety that so many of us who have been through this. No, it's pregnancy after loss is...
00:05:53
Speaker
it's not a walk in the park that would be the furthest thing for describing it but you managed to do that so beautifully but but some of you did question in series one why we didn't share our own stories um which we had planned to do yeah we did we thought we were going to do it like in depth of both our stories and i want acknowledge here that you can share your story at any point when it feels right for you and for both you and i now it feels like a point where we can kind of look back and we can share the learnings that we had from our experiences, hopefully to help others.
00:06:27
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And it feels more, I don't know, compassionate to ourselves and our own experiences to do this now. And I think, you know, I've been always a really big advocate for being able to share stories in the midst of the pain. You know, I kind of have and that's not just in terms of miscarriage. I think in life we can often want to share once things are resolved, the rosier parts.
The Personal Impact of Multiple Losses
00:06:49
Speaker
And, ah you know, when it comes to miscarriage and talking personally now, um it wasn't until I actually had a miscarriage, but then had subsequent miscarriages where I started to understand why people choose to share perhaps more delayed.
00:07:05
Speaker
And, you know, coming from a broadcast background, sharing my entire life for 10 years um as a job, it was really hard for me to understand. Well, no, it wasn't hard for me to understand other people, but for me, i was a person that was really proud of sharing moments as they were happening. Mm-hmm.
00:07:21
Speaker
And after seven losses across the span of five years, I think to your point, you are going to be a different person with each of those experiences. Now, that's not to say that you're not a person that might not want to share from one loss, but I think we're talking specifically today about um our stories and and my story specifically. And because there was so much loss,
00:07:47
Speaker
It's kind of like when siblings that are born across a long span of time have different experiences of their parents, right? So if there's 10 kids, like my dad's one of nine, right, the youngest and the eldest have completely different childhoods because the parents are completely different people.
The Complexity of Loss While Trying for Another Child
00:08:05
Speaker
And it was like that for me, you know, there were, I was such a different person in different stages of my losses, um, at the different losses, you know, the third or fourth meant something different. Um, the first was something different again, like, and and then when I did eventually get lucky enough to have my first, I was now having losses with another baby. So that was a different experience again.
00:08:29
Speaker
So I think to your point, you know, there isn't really a right time to share and it may look really differently if you end up having, um unfortunately, more than more than one loss. So for this example, i had had many in between um having my first child.
00:08:46
Speaker
um I had three losses leading into Brin, I believe, um which were every single IUI trial that I had. And then I continued to have loss after loss, um trying for a second child.
00:09:01
Speaker
So when we started to record this, I think I was at about, um I think I'd had seven miscarriages. And when I fell pregnant with Sunny, who um has just turned one I was, it's and it's just really indescribable.
Isolation and Anxiety in Pregnancy After Loss
00:09:17
Speaker
You know, I am a psychotherapist now, a counsellor. I come to this space with not only personal experience but professional experience now. And I don't think there's really any words to explain the unique isolation and anxiety just doesn't seem to sum it up for the words that happen when you are navigating ah such yearnful pregnancy with so much fear. Because I think the thing that I really struggled with the most was the the lack of faith and trust in myself. Yes.
00:09:49
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like that's really huge part
Body Communication and Self-Awareness During Loss
00:09:52
Speaker
of it. It's that kind of like you're second guessing everything, not only that you do, but that happens to you Everything is a question. Nothing is a permanent or a certain And everything has this kind of, know anxiety is not the overarching term to use, but it is something that we experience. But every single thing becomes an anxious moment where something could happen. And, oh, this is it.
00:10:12
Speaker
Oh, this is where it happens again. And this is where lose the baby again. And I think in my instance, um I don't have diagnosed PTSD, but I... Oh, well, yeah. I mean, if I'm self-diagnosed, I actually have the qualifications somewhat.
00:10:25
Speaker
um But I think, you know, when we do speak about anxiety in this particular field, there's so much research and so much connection ah that I continue to find as I, you know, work further in the space of, you know, people that have gone through wars and people that have gone through miscarriage because of the silence. Yes. and the isolation and and the lack of understanding from anyone else who hasn't gone through because it's impossible yeah essentially it really is very difficult and you know obviously we know um that peer support is an incredible therapeutic offering um and that can happen in our programs or it can happen in your local community or in your friendship groups however we still also know that each situation and experience is completely different
00:11:09
Speaker
um And if you haven't experienced a loss, it's very hard to understand why they're so different because you haven't had your unique understanding of one.
Shock and Societal Pressures
00:11:18
Speaker
So this was different for me because um I think I was getting to a point as well where we were close to stopping.
00:11:26
Speaker
So there's this whole other element. I had started working in the space professionally. So there was, i was surrounded by stories of infertility, of IVF, of pregnancy loss.
00:11:37
Speaker
um I'd started doing the podcast. um and then i also um had just turned 40 so there's this kind of maternal age thing going on in the conversation um as well as i'm not sure if i was on the podcast or if i had stopped by this point but i i actually discovered that sunday was a twin and that i had lost twin So I was in fact going through ah loss um in this pregnancy as well. So it ends up being that I have had eight losses, including the twin of Sunny.
00:12:14
Speaker
And so, you know, it was interesting because I remember having this moment where I was about to go in for another scan and i and when you have had subsequent losses,
00:12:25
Speaker
For me, um and I have heard this in um our program, you know, there's a feeling.
Intuition and Body Communication During Pregnancy
00:12:31
Speaker
There's something you know that has gone. Many people can really somatically experience this, this kind of emptiness, this disappearing of something that you didn't know was there until you knew it had gone.
00:12:44
Speaker
And I was saying to my mum and my husband, you know having a full-blown kind of um panicky moment on the floor you know hysterical going it's happening i know it's happening again and they were both looking at me going i know you know this feeling so we're not gonna say it's not happening but we can only share with you that we both feel in our bones it's not and then i went to find out that i was losing the twin and that we were all right
00:13:15
Speaker
It's amazing how much you can feel in your own body though, right? and Well, it was funny because as well, I was having a shower before the first scans. This is before I even knew that there was a second sac. And I use that word because that's my terminology in this situation. And it can feel very clinical, but they're my they my words for this particular experience.
00:13:34
Speaker
um and And in the context of that learning, that's how the language was. but I remember going I was in the shower and we were going for our very first scan and when you do do IVF particularly in a private clinic they will scan you very early you know um to the point where you're prepared to not hear a heartbeat especially if you're somebody that has not heard one or heard one and it's gone like there's a lot and I have had both of those experiences um not heard one and heard one and it went so i was very prepared for the fact that anything could happen in this very early scan
00:14:07
Speaker
And I was in the shower and I said to Ben, my husband, I know, i'm just going to put this out there because I feel like I want to let you know, but I'm feeling two energies. And I was never this person that was like, I want twins or I feel twins. I just,
Survival Mechanisms and Disassociation
00:14:21
Speaker
and when you get to this point of loss, it's so, you're so kind of, yeah it's just very, yeah it becomes, well, for me, it became very, um,
00:14:29
Speaker
ah Clinical is not the word, it just became very, I had to get through the next step. It was just kind of one step in front of another. So I wasn't jumping to twins. like But I said to Ben, I just want you to know this is around me.
00:14:41
Speaker
I just am feeling two spirits um and I'm just going to leave it at that. Anyway, we went to the scan. um Luckily, we did um find a heartbeat.
00:14:51
Speaker
um And I asked and said, so just the one, you know, that's all you're picking up. And he had a bit of an extra look and he was like, yeah, yeah, just the one. And then it was three weeks later, we were confirmed that there was actually two, two little, um little bubs in there.
00:15:08
Speaker
and one of them had gone at that time that I was sensing something had missed. So I had detected or sensed that there was two way early on. So interestingly, as I mentioned,
00:15:19
Speaker
I lost all this t trust with my body, but my body was still telling things. So it's really fascinating in hindsight. It's such a powerful thing. But at the time I was feeling like a shell of myself because there was no faith in what was happening because I never knew what the result would be. But when I look back, our bodies are still talking to us. It's the fact that we've been so hurt and so torn.
00:15:43
Speaker
It's too scary yeah to touch into. I don't want to know. I'm just... I'm terrified. It's that perilous, which is part of like PTSD, isn't it? Where you you shut down and you're paralyzed. Well, it's survival. can't process anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. like So all of that was happening as we were recording these episodes, which is, it's really remarkable, isn't it? because I think as well at the time, because I'd had so much loss, I was so yearning to get back into my career. you know, i was so yearning to do
Balancing Ambition and Fertility Journeys
00:16:13
Speaker
something for myself.
00:16:15
Speaker
um And I really did feel as a very ambitious person that my fertility journey became my ambition. And I was sick of it, you know. so whilst it might seem a little, um you know, bizarre that I really wanted to do the show and and continue where I could, and I did draw the line at times, um it was also such a thing that I could give myself the work I wanted to do and the opportunity presented itself. And that was so exciting for me and for the organization and for what we wanted to achieve together.
00:16:45
Speaker
So yeah, I think it doesn't always make sense, but it's, there's so many things going on at the same time. I resonate with that. I remember my third loss and it was an unexpected, so like drawn out, protracted is what I should say, loss where you go in, there's no heartbeat and you just know.
00:17:02
Speaker
then they say, come back in two weeks, there might be a heartbeat. We went back in a week, there was a heartbeat and then another week and a bit went by and I started to bleed. So it was this constant roller coaster, and that was my third loss. So by that point, you to your point, you know. you just know.
00:17:19
Speaker
And I remember that whole, well, I've still got to work.
Professional Responsibilities Amidst Loss
00:17:23
Speaker
And I was found in Pink Elephants at the time. It was 2020, so we were, what, four years in, very much in its infancy. But I remember perhaps to this massive pitch event.
00:17:31
Speaker
to raise funds for us and tell my story as part of that. But yeah, I was actually still living this story and no one knew that I was early pregnant again. And then I was potentially losing this baby again. But here I am stood on stage talking about my other miscarriages. It was almost like out of body. Yeah, light absolutely.
00:17:49
Speaker
that you just can't. and But think about women and what they do
Societal Expectations and Miscarriage Taboos
00:17:53
Speaker
every day. There's so many women that I know that have done things. like I spoke to one teacher, amazing lady from WA, and she went on a school trip to Disneyland with her high school students whilst miscarrying.
00:18:07
Speaker
because she couldn't find the words to explain. So she knew the baby had passed. She knew that she was going to miscarry. And it like, but still with the amount of things that we still do.
00:18:18
Speaker
And I guess for me, it's kind of unpacking that societal pressure, the taboo about whether we can talk about it, the shame stigma that we still have, still is so deeply entrenched in this issue. that Is it because we can't find the words to explain what's going on? Should we be given more like compassion, understanding? Should we have safer spaces to talk about it? Yeah, it's just, I don't know, it's fascinating. Yeah, and I think a really important point, ah particularly with the PEBS program that we talk about is emotional language to be able to represent ourselves. And also, it that well, sorry, not also, that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be an outward conversation. Sometimes the conversation is with ourselves.
00:18:56
Speaker
And so I think it's really important to add here um that shock is a really powerful emotion and one that actually somatically moves through our body very slowly. Right.
00:19:08
Speaker
So at times it may feel like you you might have experienced somebody listening that um even out of this space, you look at them and when they're in shock, you'll see that things start to slow down. And there's a reason for that. um From a survival mechanism, we're trying to start to navigate what happens. Something has happened and now we need to navigate what happens
Dual Processing Model of Grief
00:19:30
Speaker
next.
00:19:30
Speaker
So the reason that potentially people continue to go to Disneyland, and continue to do these things, continue to do the podcast like I did, is that there you know the shock isn't just coming from the losses. The shock is coming from maybe pregnancy news and then the fear of it not happening. There's so much shock that goes into this experience that it's a slowing down of time for us to figure out what our survival move is, to be able to survive it quite literally.
00:19:59
Speaker
So I think shock's at play here. And one of the other things that we talk about the PEBS program is this dual processing model, which is really particularly important to note in our early pregnancy loss experience. Because as we cover as an organization, the old school kind of five steps of grief, or is it five? don't even think of it anymore. Yeah, like doing the irrevocable. Yes, that it's the real kind of pop culture understanding of how grief works really, really is very dated. There's not a lot of research behind it, but it particularly can be very damaging in early pregnancy loss to kind of think about this linear approach to grief.
00:20:35
Speaker
And so the dual process model really does talk to the fact that there's a loss-oriented experience, which is when you feel that you're deeply in it, and then there's restoration, this rest restored restorative idea. and And that doesn't have to happen in
Non-linear Grieving and Unexpected Manifestations
00:20:48
Speaker
any order. You don't go into deep loss first and then all of a sudden go back to work after. it can be the other way around right and we can oscillate between the two but sometimes we can move straight into restoration where we are now needing to do in order to survive it and what I talk about a lot with the women in the groups are that it doesn't mean you're not grieving or processing you know and that the way we process is acceptable for how we need to process yeah and that's that whole coming back to again translational grieving and intuitive grieving right and
00:21:20
Speaker
how we can kind of display emotions. Again, there's a gendered false narrative around that, that women should be this way, and men should be this way. And it's like, well, no, because some minutes I'm feeling this way and then an hour later I'm feeling this and then a day later. And again, it's not linear and it can, all sorts of things can still like even years later, trigger an emotional reaction in you and you behave in a way that might be out of character. I want to say that might not be the right terminology, but And that, and then when you get that retrospective moment to actually think what's happening, what's going on here.
00:21:52
Speaker
And that look back, you realize that it's connected to something that happened to you. And it's just, yeah, I feel like that's another false narrative around the early pregnancy loss is what the grief should look and this timeline that we put around it that it should be neat.
00:22:05
Speaker
And then a week after a miscarriage, we should all be fine, ready to go back to work and have to go again. You'll be fine when you have another pregnancy. and both you and i are in that percentage of women that have had multiple losses and
Parenting After Loss: Managing Wellbeing
00:22:19
Speaker
I think what comes with recurrent pregnancy loss as well is an added layer of deep-seated fear like in life too yes my question everything now I don't believe in anything and yeah we spoke about this and it can seep into parenting yeah yeah yeah yeah I think we can go there as well the parenting after loss thing right the way that
00:22:36
Speaker
I parent my children that were born after loss versus how I parent Georgie, my first, who was just regular pregnancy, no losses before. And we were incredibly lucky just to have Georgie, whereas with my other two kids,
00:22:51
Speaker
I go straight to the worst outcome with them if they've got a cold. Like Johnny had a rash through the night and i was like, oh my god, he's got meningitis. it' Look, it's not blanching with the glass. at it He's eight.
00:23:02
Speaker
And I still jump to the worst thing for him because there's still somewhere in me this fear that he's going to be taken away from me. I think I go the other way. I think now with Sunny I can be a bit disassociative and I think in a way it's it sometimes is disassociative and when I say that it's not that I'm not present with him but there's a couple of
Slow Emotional Processing After Childbirth
00:23:24
Speaker
things going on. I think that um he's such a simple kind of very different easy baby right.
00:23:31
Speaker
So at times he doesn't demand my presence as well, right? But I think processing so much personally after loss and after the experience we had in finally getting this rainbow baby has been a lot more than I anticipated. So at times even to look and acknowledge that he exists can be quite a um profound um download you know and it's a gift and it's amazing and I know that not everybody gets to this place but the processing of receiving him can sometimes be so huge that I almost don't think I can do it at the same time and it's and I kind of is disassociated the word probably technically yes
00:24:16
Speaker
But also when we talk about that shock and that slow process that has to happen with shock, it also is a matter of I probably don't have a choice to do it any differently right now.
Reclaiming Life and Career Post-Loss
00:24:27
Speaker
I have to kind of just slowly thaw out a little bit from what happened, not just before him, but the whole pregnancy. You know, he really he really didn't land into my kind of logical understanding of him until he was probably six months, if I'm honest.
00:24:45
Speaker
And I appreciated him. I smelled him. i you know i didn't Luckily, I didn't have any real... um I had fucking never-ending mastitis, but I didn't have, um luckily, any kind of real um postpartum depression type of disassociation. But at times...
00:25:01
Speaker
It did feel almost overwhelming to really receive him. And i think on the flip side of that, I also have chosen to do a lot more work earlier than I did with my first because I also feel a real reclaiming back the time I was stolen, what was stolen from me. And so there's two things. It's a little bit of needing to process is here and a little bit of, well, actually this took a really long time and my whole life and finances and career stopped because I didn't just have a space where three years I just didn't have a baby.
Navigating Multiple Losses: Challenges and Lack of Support
00:25:36
Speaker
I fell pregnant and I lost one. I fell pregnant and I lost one. I fell pregnant and I lost one. And it's like that's it's heartbreaking and it's devastating, but it it it's it's I have to go have a surgery. I have to now go back to another appointment. Like it's the logistics of those losses that is not only not understood, but not acknowledged. Like where was my Centrelink to be able to navigate that?
00:26:03
Speaker
You know, where was my support? I didn't choose that. You get childcare support. Like what happens to the people that have to stop? The fact that a DNC is classed as elective surgery, I did not choose.
00:26:15
Speaker
i had a choice of what method I would take after my baby had died inside of me. But it's not a choice in the way that it's framed, similar to what I believe with IVF. Like it's not elective, we do not choose. This is not how we envisage building a family.
00:26:29
Speaker
This is something that happens to us and needs to be treated that way. But I want to go back on that stolen from me because that touched me. So I've had, got to capture it all now, but six pregnancies in total, three that have lost and and two subsequent ones that we managed to keep, Johnny and Rosie, but there was a loss in between.
00:26:50
Speaker
And with Johnny, I did get postpartum anxiety and I can't remember the first four months of his life. I look at photos. I wasn't there, but I was there. I wouldn't let people hold him.
00:27:02
Speaker
I was scared they'd make him ill and he'd catch something. i am I fully was in anxiety mode, needed medication, sought therapy, had counseling as well.
Postpartum Anxiety and Early Intervention
00:27:13
Speaker
And then to the point that I want to convey here is with Rose, I identified much earlier on in that pregnancy that I wasn't coping with the help of an amazing woman, Terry Diamond, who's been a guest on this podcast as well and is supported from Kelefins.
00:27:28
Speaker
I knew I wasn't right and I didn't want to land where I landed with Johnny. And even though I was absolutely terrified, of'd be jinxing the pregnancy. But the thing that I did differently, which you you're saying you did with Sunday as well, is I got help earlier. I tried my best to process it and it was one of the best things I ever did because when Rose did eventually land in my arms, I didn't disassociate from her.
00:27:50
Speaker
I like literally the whole world was silent and i was in this most magical bubble for the first six months of her life of our little family. And I felt like everything was right again in the world. and And it's sad because on the one hand, I lost that with Johnny so badly.
00:28:11
Speaker
And that makes me sad. But on the one hand, what I want people to hear is that if you're feeling this, when you access support and help, what you can do is put yourself in such a different position yeah yeah and you can't know what you don't know right so you know unfortunately we could look back and be like oh that's such a robbed time with Johnny and but at the same time without that experience and and it's not and i'm certainly not saying um i'm certainly not saying anything's meant to be i really don't kind of subscribe to that terminology around this but i think there are opportunities for us
The Role of Advocacy and Support Networks
00:28:49
Speaker
and for the work we do for us to really convey that support can shift the experience um and there is really and importance of the fact that um that
00:29:04
Speaker
You know, it's not so much that the time isn't lost, but that there is a way for you to transform through this. Yeah. I feel like as well, you talked about the shock and the way that that reverberates through you.
00:29:18
Speaker
And I've never kind of heard it positioned that way before. And I'm not a counsellor. Everyone knows the lens I come to is running an organisation. I've learnt a lot through the beautiful privileged experience that I have of listening to others, but I haven't heard it explained that way. And I feel like that really relates to, again, that the sooner that you connect with others those that have been through loss or seek and another type of support, such as counseling, psychotherapy,
00:29:42
Speaker
the sooner that you can start to understand that and give yourself the grace to actually acknowledge what's happening and the time and the language. We talk about language in this space because often, particularly you're coming at this from a first loss, the shock, this is happening to me. I never thought miscarriage would happen to me. It's something that happens to other people.
00:30:01
Speaker
And because we've had no education in society, like I'm walking this journey now with my nearly 12 year old, her sex ed in school. It's abhorrent. I'm so over it. I'm so angry by that. that It's all about how not to get pregnant still. Excuse me. It's 2025. Can we talk about reproductive health? Can we talk about women's health, gynecological issues, endometriosis, all of these things?
Critique of Reproductive Health Education
00:30:23
Speaker
And it's not being discussed in schools still, which then lands us 15, 20 years later when we're trying to build our families, we're still following this ridiculous ideal that most people just have a baby. And we know one in 22 or it might be one in 19 now see varying statistics, but somewhere around the one in 20 marks,
00:30:42
Speaker
children are born via IVF. So we need to normalize much earlier on. And in my opinion, that will also help to reduce some of the shock that we feel. It won't take away the loss and the grief because we love these babies. This is something that happens to us and grief is part of the love, right?
00:31:01
Speaker
But I do think we can do more earlier on so that it is less of a shock. Yeah, and I think what what, so if someone's coming into my, excuse me, if someone's coming into my private practice or into our PEBS program, you know, the very first thing that we do start to touch on is, well, firstly, acknowledgement, because that's essentially, you know, the heart of what Pink Elephant stands for, is acknowledging that this experience is important and it exists.
Emotional Literacy and Grief Processing
00:31:28
Speaker
um But further to that, moving into it a little deeper, is really the education around, as I said, the emotional literacy. um Because the reason for that is because grief obviously comes on with the loss in itself.
00:31:44
Speaker
But what we do know is that the the grief onset that comes from the lack of acknowledgement and societal confusion and the lack of education, whether that's from um a child or a grandparent about this process, can really dangerously extend this experience to not only move through ah grief processing with the pregnancy loss, but then start to really move through ah grief and kind of a, um like a traumatic experience through relationships and um work and now we're looking at how we present and who who understands us and we start to question ourselves there's identity issues that start to come up um anxiety as we've touched on um unfortunately you know real depressive episodes and this kind of loss and restorative um this dual process can on the extreme spectrums of those end up moving into a proper grief disorder And so it is really important not just for you to feel better, but for you also to understand the process for you to be able to articulate needs.
00:32:50
Speaker
Because when we when we really avoid this part of the picture of our outer life and the external world, and I say this in our PEBS group all the time, it's not your job to educate everybody.
00:33:02
Speaker
You know, that's not what I'm saying. However, If you feel that it's useful for you,
Government Support and Resource Validation
00:33:08
Speaker
that kind of understanding of what's going on can really, really profoundly not just change your experience but those around you. And so without that, it it's a really, um it's kind of, I do see it as quite a dangerous situation.
00:33:24
Speaker
thing to be avoiding. And so luckily um the government has seen this and has absolutely um taken one first step in supporting us be able to give that literature, give that emotional information and, you know, we'd like to give it to more But yeah, but it's ah it's a first step. Yeah, I have to say where I'm landing now, and we said at the beginning is this.
00:33:47
Speaker
I am genuinely hopeful now about the future of the next generation that walk these journeys.
Vision for Systemic Change in Miscarriage Support
00:33:53
Speaker
And I don't say that lightly because I've got three children that I get the privilege of parenting every day. And the reason that I'm definitely still here fighting this fight is because I will be damned if in the future they go through this and the system is still the same.
00:34:05
Speaker
So I feel really proud that Pink Elephants has had a really big part in that and that we're working at government across multiple different stakeholders and multiple different levels now advocating for different parts in the system and different change. That might be things like looking at the e-pass clinics and the hospitals and the reviews of how they're staffed, how you access treatment when you have an early pregnancy loss.
00:34:27
Speaker
how much empathy staff have. We're also looking at things like health pathways. How do we ensure that everyone gets a referral? I actually found some information out today and i can't share the statistics, but I can say this, that it's not changed much in that we ran a survey seven years ago now.
00:34:44
Speaker
And the amount of women getting referral for support is still really small. So there's a huge gap there. I don't think women should have to turn to social media to find pink elephants. I feel like it's a due diligence of a healthcare care professional to say, Hey, this can be really hard experience. Here's where you go for support. And that's where the emotional literature and language begins because when, you know, as a society, let's not, you know, beat around the bush. We really do put medical structures and um and practitioners on a pedestal.
Healthcare Support for Early Pregnancy Loss
00:35:13
Speaker
They're the white-cops syndrome, right? Yeah, exactly. Whatever they tell me is true. And so in those moments when we're vulnerable, we need somebody of that authoritarian power to give us what we need, you know, instead of going to the corner of the the internet and then, you know, finding things on forums which are so incredibly important um but it is also really important that in those times as you say, there's not this expectation and pressure again on the woman to go and kind of so find that support. Yeah.
00:35:42
Speaker
Yeah, and it's it's an interesting thing and I think this season, in um whilst we really hold this word with um a delicate approach, hope is really, i guess, the essence of what um we're feeling in the organisation with this this grant and and hope in that,
00:36:01
Speaker
what can we discover you know by expanding the reach of this program expanding the work and that's not to say that we're not looking at the realities of this it is far from finished far from perfect but the season I guess um last season we really touched on ah you know that that essence of we need and change this like there was a real fierceness there there was a fire And that will always
Evolving Conversations and Ongoing Challenges
00:36:27
Speaker
be there. But I think this season really moves into, as you say earlier, as you said earlier, the deeper conversations of, okay, how does this integrate in our society? How do we really shift these conversations on a, like on a, on a body, like felt sense perspective?
00:36:44
Speaker
um And that does start with, you know, the things that we've discussed today, but so many more things that we probably don't even know yet. Yeah. yeah You know, that we're literally learning. And so that's what this season essentially wants to be is how do we develop our knowledge to continue to extend that hope that we can, you know, look at this as a, that there's there's a very big thing of happening. There's a very big experience happening of post-traumatic stress and a real grief and pain.
00:37:13
Speaker
But there also is an offering. There is a post-traumatic growth and we want to be able to look at opportunities for that a little more too. Yeah, I think from my position as CEO of Pink Elephants, I've talked about hope, but I have a really clear vision of what's possible.
Progress and Optimism in Advocacy
00:37:30
Speaker
And I've had that vision since the early days of founding an organization that people told me was not needed, not necessary. Women just get over that. In my day, they just did this. was constantly what I'm coming against. And I feel like we're now at this pivotal moment where actually, no, government are listening. Policymakers are listening. Workplaces are starting to listen.
00:37:51
Speaker
community is starting to listen and their ears are pricked and they want to know more. And I feel like now is the time for us to go deeper. Now is the time for us to share more, to keep pushing the needle further, to use that kind of like metaphor, but it is more is needed.
00:38:06
Speaker
And we always want to foster more empathy and understanding. That's a given. That's what, why we do what we do. That's why I share my story. It's why I inspire others to hopefully share theirs where they feel safe to share them.
00:38:20
Speaker
Because when we foster more empathy and understanding, then what we can do is really start to drive systemic change because we cannot change the system if people don't understand our pain and our need. They just see as just an early loss.
00:38:33
Speaker
At least it happened early. At least, you know, you can get pregnant. But I feel like we are moving from the at least narrative now and we're moving to okay, so you've told us this is something.
Hope and Support-Seeking Encouragement
00:38:43
Speaker
what's next yeah i think and you know that's why we will be touching on that in this series you know we will be you know offering you a podcast to send to someone of this is what to do now not just not what to not say yeah um and i think i want to talk to you if you're listening that doesn't necessarily feel like you can find hope right now and i think it's a really important thing to acknowledge Because I've, you know, personally had a funny relationship with hope, particularly when anybody would perhaps suggest it to me um from the external world, whether it's a person that understood the experience or not, um and coming in as a counsellor that it isn't necessary for you to necessary it isn't necessary for you to feel hope today if that's not accessible to you.
00:39:29
Speaker
I think hope is really one of those qualities that needs to be felt and it isn't always accessible to us. But we are here to spearhead that hope and that work for you. Mm-hmm.
00:39:45
Speaker
and when you feel like things might start to clear a little bit that hope begins to creep in again and it isn't always available and that's okay you know that's okay and i think you know it's ah it's an interesting part of this picture particularly if you are in a stage of yearning for a family yearning for a baby um hope is a really important part of this picture but i don't think it's often useful if it feels forced yeah completely i couldn't remember when i was pregnant after loss with rose and i finally started to share it and people would be like they'd be so excited and joyful and that was so foreign to me because i couldn't hold on to hope at that point i needed other people to hold on to that hope quietly for me and quietly quietly yeah
00:40:39
Speaker
not say you must be so happy and i'll be like i'm not happy i'm terrified this baby's gonna die too and you can't you don't want to be seen as a crazy woman shouting out of the top your lungs but that's all the negative nancy or you're not grateful enough like all those again false narratives that society tells us how we should behave particularly as women we shouldn't be angry right i'm so angry And yeah, I guess I agree
Support Networks and Empathy in Advocacy
00:41:03
Speaker
with you. if you're in the trenches right now, the biggest thing you can do is connect in for support, find support, know that you don't have to hold the light. That's not your job.
00:41:12
Speaker
That's what we get to do. It's what we get the absolute privilege. And if you speak to any of our incredible peer support companions, they'll tell you that's one of the best feelings in the world when they get to hold that for someone else who needs it. So you're not alone there is support when you're ready then you can start to kind of open up and you might feel some of that but also acknowledging that this could take i've been 10 years trying to build the family that i thought i would have and that 10 years navigating ups and downs of it will come and go yeah and i think this season we really are um intending to offer that hope for you particularly if it's not a space that you can feel like is reachable for you right now
00:41:54
Speaker
Today's episode may have brought up some feelings that you need some extra support around, and that's totally okay.
Encouragement to Seek Support from Pink Elephant
00:42:00
Speaker
Head to pinkalifans.org.au to access our circle of support, your space where you can be met with empathy and support through all of your experiences of early pregnancy loss.
00:42:10
Speaker
We're here for you. You're not alone.