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EPISODE 9: The Path to Baby Pax: Recurrent early pregnancy loss, IVF, scanxiety and pregnancy after loss with Haley McDonald
659 Plays1 year ago
Today’s episode follows Haley's deeply personal and emotional journey through recurrent early pregnancy loss. Beginning with an unexpected pregnancy during the challenging times of the COVID-19 pandemic, Haley recounts her experiences of miscarriages, the emotional toll they took on her and her family, and the difficulties of navigating the healthcare system.
Haley suffered immensely. These experiences had a profound impact on her mental health, highlighting the silence and lack of support that often accompany early pregnancy loss. Haley shares the emotional struggles, the trauma of repeated miscarriages, and the determination that drove her to pursue IVF. This episode also touches on the complex emotions surrounding pregnancy after loss and the anxiety that often lingers throughout.
As her story unfolds, Haley reflects on the societal pressure to keep pregnancies a secret until after the first trimester, leading to feelings of isolation and disenfranchised grief.
Despite all of these challenges, Haley's story is one of resilience, hope and determination, and the eventual joy of welcoming her beautiful rainbow baby, Pax.
EARLY PREGNANCY LOSS SUPPORT
If you or someone you know has experienced miscarriage or early pregnancy loss, please know you are not alone.
- For crisis support, please call Lifeline - 13 11 14.
- Access all our support
- Connect with Peer Support
- Join Online Communities
- Emotional Support Resources
- Follow @pinkelephantssupport
STACEY JUNE LEWIS
If you’d like to reach out to Stacey for counselling she is currently taking new clients. Find out more via her Website or Instagram.
You can also follow her personal Instagram account where she shares some of her lived experience.
JOIN THE MISCARRIAGE REBELLION
Pink Elephants believe everyone deserves support following the loss of their baby.
We have been providing support to many ten's of thousands of people for nearly 8 years, raising funds through generous donors. We now need ongoing Government support to empower our circle of support.
We are calling on the Government to provide us with $1.6million over 4 years to help bridge the gap. Sign our petition.
Early pregnancy loss is not just a private grief, but a national issue that requires collective empathy, awareness, and action. By recognising and addressing this, we can make meaningful change in the lives of 100,000+ women who experience early pregnancy loss every year.
SUBSCRIBE
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More information on Zoe Clark-Coates https://www.zoeadelle.co.uk/
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Hosts
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Miss Coach Rebellion. I'm Sam Payne, CEO and co-founder of the Pink Elephant Support Network. And I'm Stacey June Lewis, counsellor, psychotherapist and broadcaster.
Purpose of the Podcast: Normalizing Pregnancy Loss
00:00:14
Speaker
This podcast is where we share stories of many Australians who have lost their babies to early pregnancy loss.
00:00:21
Speaker
With evidence and empathy, we unpack the shame, blame and stigma and the lack of support that many face. This is a loss that has been silenced for too long. We deserve better. We are here to normalise the conversation. And we're here to make lasting change.
Introduction to Hailey and Her Role
00:00:37
Speaker
In today's The Miscarriage Rebellion, we bring on the incredible Hailey. Hailey is the owner, founder of 3P production company based in Brisbane. They have been an incredible support to Pink elephants. They're why you have this podcast in your ears. They provide the support to produce, edit and all the things that go into making you be able to listen and access to this new support that Pink elephants offers.
00:01:04
Speaker
Hayley is an absolute powerhouse of a woman.
Hailey's Loss of Control and Career Success
00:01:07
Speaker
She has gone through life working hard and achieving her dreams and then pregnancy loss was one of those things that you just couldn't control the outcome of. It's a story that so many of us will relate to where for once we can't do anything to change the outcome. For once we can't work harder at it to try and achieve the dream of a baby in our arms. We literally have to go through this with our heart on our sleeves
00:01:34
Speaker
and hope for the best outcome that we can have. It's a heart-wrenching story. I'm sure that you will agree with me that Hayley has been incredibly brave and generous in sharing her experience for you all to listen to today.
Hailey's Pregnancy Journey During COVID
00:01:48
Speaker
As always, reach out to Pink elephants if you need support, but if you are ready to listen, let's take a dive into Hayley's story.
00:01:56
Speaker
Really, really excited to have you on the Miss Courage Aurelian Hailey. You have been a long time supporter of Pink Elephants in many, many ways. But for the listeners that don't know you and your experience, if you could start by sharing your journey of pregnancy loss and fertility challenges and let everyone know what that looked like for you. Yeah, so my journey started in, funnily enough, Covid.
00:02:23
Speaker
You know, I'm really lucky. I had a little boy in 2013 called Dashiel and he was perfect. And I was a very annoying person. I was one of those people that got decided one day I was going to have a baby and next month I was pregnant. And, um, you know, I, I hated being pregnant. Um, when I was pregnant with my son, I just was one of those people that, you know, I did not embrace pregnancy at all. And in hindsight, I was, um,
00:02:52
Speaker
incredibly naive thinking back but anyway I had him and he was the most beautiful baby I ever saw when I gave birth to him and he was a perfect baby and we were super lucky my husband Leon and I and um yeah we were very much a one and done family we um
00:03:12
Speaker
We were happy with our son and he was great. And I actually, it's really funny because I actually don't think I thought I could love another human being as much as I loved my son. And I thought, that's it. That's enough. That's enough for me. So 2020 came around and COVID hit.
Unexpected Pregnancy at 39
00:03:33
Speaker
And it was actually the week that COVID got really bad, that week leading up to COVID.
00:03:39
Speaker
And when everything started shutting down and people started panicking and the emails started going out and I was in the middle of packing down my entire company at the time. I had about 15 people.
00:03:53
Speaker
And, um, and yeah, we had literally just packed up everything to go work from home on, on that Friday, the day that SCOMO did the announcement. And I thought, Oh, how did my period for a while? That's really weird. I'll just go to the night, Alan, get a test. So anyway, I took it home and I put it in the draw. This was four days later. I thought, Oh yeah, I've got to do that. So took, took a test and it was, um, two, two big lines came up.
00:04:20
Speaker
And, um, my husband was, uh, shocked. I mean, I was, I was 39 years old at the time. Um, and I thought this is great. This is, this is perfect. Um, so, you know, the world was going to shit and I was having this baby and it was really, it was really, um, it was a really happy time for.
00:04:44
Speaker
10, 11 weeks into that. So we went for our eight, nine weeks again. Perfect. Um, went to see the doctor that, that delivered Dashiel and sat in the room and
00:05:00
Speaker
We were all joking and laughing and we were making fun of Leon because his greatest fear is having a daughter. He thought he was going to have a girl and perfect heartbeat. Everything was good. We went home and I had to book in for NIPT so I would have been
00:05:23
Speaker
11, 11 and a bit weeks. And I remember the doctor said to me when he gave me the form after my earlier scan, he said, Oh, I'm just going to come back and scan you before you go to your blood test. Just in case I would hate for you to waste your money on this $600 blood test. And I thought that was so, so weird. I was like, why would you say that? That's weird. What's going to happen? And I'll always remember that. And he was like, yeah. And he didn't really go into it. He didn't say anything about age or anything like that. He was just very much, I'll look
00:05:52
Speaker
You know, just, just in case. And I thought, well, what's going to happen? And it was really funny because actually that's the first time that thought ever
The Miscarriage and Its Immediate Impact
00:05:59
Speaker
crossed my mind. And I remember I rang my mum and I told her what the doctor said. I said, Oh mum, do you think I'm going to anything to worry about? She went, no, of course you bloody don't. That's what my mum used to say. Um, she goes, no, no one in our family has miscarriages, which is, which isn't, you know, it's how my mother was and she would make us
00:06:19
Speaker
feel better, but, um, you know, in hindsight, I found out there's been lots of miscarriages in my family and people and stillbirth and people just don't, um, they just don't talk about it. Yeah. So we went back to, to, to the scan and we all rocked in there and it was covered. So we had to take, we had to take my son. He was, um, he was six at the time.
00:06:41
Speaker
Um, because you couldn't get babysitters yet. Cause everyone's in lockdown. Um, you say, Oh, okay. You get up on the table. I said, yep. And, um, and yeah, he just, he just, and I remember the last thing he said to, to, to, to my son, he goes, what do you think it is? Dash? Do you think it's a brother or a sister? Which one do you want? And Dash said, Oh, I want a sister because he was, um, obviously G up his father.
00:07:03
Speaker
And yeah, he was scanning me and he was a really beautiful, friendly doctor and his face just completely just went really serious.
00:07:13
Speaker
And I was used to him joking around and he said, oh, it's not there anymore. And I said, I said, what do you mean it's not there anymore? He said, the baby has no heartbeat. I'm so sorry. And it's really funny because when someone tells you something incredibly traumatic,
00:07:35
Speaker
I actually think your brain actually switches off because my brain actually switched off for a good 30 minutes. Like offline. Yeah. And I really had trouble processing. I was laying there and I was trying to process what he just said and I looked over to my husband and my husband's face, I'll never forget it. He was just so upset for us.
00:07:56
Speaker
And and I was thinking what what is wrong with you what why you're upset like my brain literally took it was it was trying to catch up with what I'd just been told and I put my hand on my face and I just went fuck and um anyway so yeah he turned off the he turned off the the machine and
00:08:16
Speaker
And I just, I was just sitting there in shock, like I didn't cry. And I was just sitting there and I was like, and I sat in the seat and, uh, I was just sitting there and the first thing I thought, it was like, fuck, how's, how am I going to get this baby out? Like I knew nothing about miscarriage and not one thing. Um, you know, and like, I didn't know what, I mean, obviously not what a pregnancy test was, but I didn't know what miscarriages were. I didn't know what a DNC was. I knew nothing. And, um,
00:08:45
Speaker
And he said, look, you know, I'm going to have to send you down to the Q-scan for a second opinion. And I said, why are you already know? Why do you need that? He said, it's like a technicality. We've got to send you down there. So it's really weird. So, you know, you go in there really happy. They tell you something horrendous.
00:09:05
Speaker
You then have to go to reception. The smiling receptionist is there and you're like, so do you want me to pay? And she's like, no, no, you just go down. I had to tell my son what had happened in the hallway, which was difficult. He was upset.
00:09:24
Speaker
So anyway, we trottled down to Q-scan, which is like a two minute walk down the road to the martyr.
Emotional Aftermath and Isolation
00:09:33
Speaker
And my husband couldn't come inside. He had to wait outside. And I was like, you know, I'm okay. And I went into the Q-scan waiting room and I was burst into tears. And those poor women must see people like me
00:09:51
Speaker
Daily multiple times a day like women like me rocky out and they know why you there like they've they've had the call I'd sit in the waiting room crying and I and I still didn't really catch up at that stage I thought they're gonna scare me and this machines gonna be better because I actually never saw my baby because my Obstetrician had an old machine and it was always facing away from me I heard it's heartbeat, but I didn't I didn't I didn't see see the baby until I went into that and
00:10:17
Speaker
Into that scan and it's so weird. It was like a perfectly formed baby. It had arms. It had legs It had a head like it was weird And so, you know, I just you know, I text my my sister From the bathroom and I told her what happened and I didn't want my mom to be upset So I told my sister to tell my mom and And yeah, it's
00:10:42
Speaker
That's, uh, yeah. And then we went back to the, to the, um, to the doctor's office and he was really, he was actually really good. He said, look, um, you know, you've got, you've got two options. You can, you can go home and let nature take his course. He goes, I wouldn't advise that. He said, I can.
00:11:02
Speaker
Get you in for a DNC and I can book you in and 730 in the morning So this is on a Thursday and he was doing it the next morning and I just that stage I said I want this done right now. Yeah So, you know we You go home and
00:11:24
Speaker
Yeah, that night was pretty tough. And yeah, so we went to, we got booked into the Martyr at five o'clock in the morning. I got booked in with a lady having her caesarean. And it was really sad because like I've had a caesarean at the Martyr and I remember I had my son at 8.30 in the morning and I had my DNC at 8.30 in the morning.
00:11:52
Speaker
So the timings all really match up because...
00:11:57
Speaker
Um, yeah, that was me when I was having my kid rocking up to them, to the Marla, excited with my husband, having a Caesar. It's, it's, it's, it's, it is traumatizing. You know, they, they put you in the maternity ward. It's a cruel, it's cruel. You go to the, you go, you go to the maternity ward. I remember they put us in a room, um, that faced inwards. So you can have rooms that face outwards into the city and you can have rooms that face inwards into the,
00:12:23
Speaker
to the glass corridors and they do. They book you in like you're having a baby and they don't really know what you're there for. I mean, they're just doing their job. So they'll come in and they'll go, here's your menu and there's the television if you want to watch TV and here's your pamphlets. And you're like, yeah, I'm actually here for a DNC. I'm actually not pregnant. I'm not having a baby. Like it's kind of obvious.
00:12:44
Speaker
And yeah, we had to go there two hours early, so literally for two hours my husband and I just watched women walk off to have their kids all day through the glass windows. We literally sat and watched women, and including the woman I booked in, walk off to
00:13:02
Speaker
to have the baby because you actually walk down to the theater when you're having a baby. But the mortifying thing is when you have a DNC, they make you sit in a bed and they push you through the halls. And I remember I was so fucking mortified that I was laying in a bed being pushed through. It was almost like torture. And I actually said to them, look, I don't want to get pushed in bed. I want to walk.
00:13:21
Speaker
So, um, uh, so yeah, that's, um, that's, yeah. And then basically you wake up from surgery and they set you home and that's pretty much where I start for six weeks by myself and my house.
00:13:33
Speaker
Cause they never gave you a pointer for support. They never told you where you could go to access. No, not at all. We, we, we, um, you get given an aftercare pamphlet and. Which is medical management, right? And then your doctor will say, you know, you can come back and see me in six weeks. And, but you know, by, by six weeks, then the damage is done in six weeks. Like six weeks is too late. Like I sat in my house for six weeks. I spoke to virtually no one. I had a couple of people who,
00:14:03
Speaker
who reached out, people didn't want to talk about it. And I can understand people don't want to upset you. But yeah, it just, it was probably the worst six weeks of my life. Yeah.
00:14:18
Speaker
There's a very real grief to you. Yeah. And it's hard for my husband too, because he, you know, he's, he's a real practical fixer. He's an engineer, my husband. And he was like, what can I do for him? And there is nothing you can do. Like it's very, um, it's very binary. You know, in fairness, a lot of people didn't even know I was pregnant. And then I was kind of sad that people didn't know I was pregnant because then it was like, well, it didn't really exist. And it's just sort of, you just, you just. It disenfranchises it further, right? Yeah. And then you just get, you just, you just, you just, um,
00:14:48
Speaker
get on with it. But yeah, I think, I think, um, yeah, that, you know, and I'm, you know, and I really got up into my head and in those first two weeks, like, you know, you've got lots of things going on. You've got the hormone calm down. And, you know, I went from being, you know, almost 12 weeks pregnant to zero weeks pregnant, less than 24 hours. Like my body just would have been, what the fuck just happened to me.
00:15:14
Speaker
And then your brains play and catch up and you can't change any of it and I'm very much in a type personality and if I want something I usually get it or I will find a way to make sure that I get it but you know, it's something like
00:15:28
Speaker
miscarriage is like there is nothing you can do to change it or fix
Transition to IVF
00:15:35
Speaker
it. Yeah absolutely and that again also plays in against us in the medical system right because there's nothing they can do to bring our babies back so it's just medically managed yes but then they don't they forget about the emotional support and the lack of and the referrals that need to happen to ensure that you are not sat at home alone.
00:15:54
Speaker
for six weeks dealing with your own grief perpetuated by silence because community also doesn't know how to meet you. So people withdraw from you because they're scared of upsetting you but actually then that silence becomes deafening and tells you that no one cares and it just becomes this juxtaposition that plays out.
00:16:09
Speaker
Yeah. And I really played in, I really, and I really twisted that in those six weeks. I thought, no one cares. No one gives a fuck. No one's calling me. No one's, no one's speaking to me. Oh, they don't care. And it just went over and over and over in a loop. And we hear that so much. We know so many women that have that same loop going round and round and round again. And that's what the silence does. It's not your fault. It's what happens because we're isolated.
00:16:34
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you know, I couldn't, I, I, I, I didn't eat. I lost 10 kilos in six weeks. I couldn't go to sleep. I would, you know, take sleeping tablets and blast my noise with, blast my ears with white noise just to, to go to sleep at night. And this, this probably continued for a good four or five weeks. And then I, and then, you know, the next part of it kicked in. I was like, right.
00:16:57
Speaker
I'm having a baby. God help everyone. Get out of my way. I'm having a baby. And my poor husband was just like, okay, don't. And he would say to me, don't worry. You're going to get your baby. You're going to get your baby. But it was, um, yeah. And you know, it's funny enough. Like I did get pregnant pretty quickly afterwards. I literally got pregnant the next cycle. And I was like, huh, perfect.
00:17:19
Speaker
bump in the road. We're good. We're back on track again. And I remember my husband was like, you know, you're only going to be like 10 weeks behind. You're good. And, um, and then miss carried again. I remember I was on a, I was on a massive shoot. I work in a production company and, um, yeah, started miss carrying the middle of this frigging shoot, um, for, for a client. And I just thought, Oh God.
00:17:49
Speaker
This is just so frustrating. Yeah. Um, and, um, so anyway, I ended up going back to the doctor and I said, and I told him what had happened. And he said, um, I said, do you think I'm too old? And he said, you're only as old as you feel. And I said, okay, great. I said, um, I want to do IVF. And he goes, what day you want to see him on day three? He goes, right. You want to start today? I said, yep.
00:18:19
Speaker
And he was like, okay. And probably not the best way to go about it. But he literally wrote me up an IVF plan on the spot. He said, you're turning 40, you don't have time to muck around. And I was like, yep, I love that. And he knew I probably wasn't leaving without that anyway. And he gave me the, gave me the, gave me the,
00:18:49
Speaker
the script, I went down to the chemist, I got those drugs, I went back, he jagged me with the first one and he said, here's your plan, I'll see you in a couple of days. And yeah, so I guess the point I'm trying to make is I went from baby loss, miscarriage, IVF cycle, like I literally did not give my brain a chance to stop and assess and go, okay, this is probably not,
00:19:17
Speaker
the best approach, but anyway, that's... So, yeah, first cycle, I thought, yep, this is cool, gonna have a baby IVF piece of cake. They'll sort it out, there'll be eggs in there, I'll get a good one. Sent them off for testing, they're all shit. They all came back, none of them were viable. And that's like kind of the loss, right? That was meltdown mode, because that's when I thought, holy fuck, I might not get...
00:19:44
Speaker
my second child. I don't know how I can process that because that can't happen. Um, but it might happen. So, you know, round two.
00:19:57
Speaker
Same thing, you know, they, they, they sent them off tests. I said, I'm putting one in, which is just as weird. And everyone's like, no, I don't know if that's a good idea. I said, yep, no. And we're talking back to back cycles. It's no, there's no month's break. I didn't have time. I was like, this is getting done. They put a, they put an embryo in, they sent the other one off for testing. Um, it took, so yep, pregnant again for the third time in 2020. This is, this is September, I think.
00:20:27
Speaker
And, um, yeah, go repeat blood tests, doubling, doubling, fuck not doubling. And, um, by that stage, I was getting really frustrated and, um, I went to the doctor's office and we were sitting there and, and, um, yeah, I was like, this is not working.
00:20:46
Speaker
need to just kill it and we'll go again. And in the meantime, the other one, the other, the other test came back and the embryo wasn't viable. And that's the first time the doctor said, well, you know, maybe you should try donor eggs. And I was like, yeah, great. We're doing donor eggs. Perfect.
00:21:01
Speaker
And my husband said, whoa, whoa, I'm not doing donor eggs. I mean, at that point of someone had said to me, I'm going to give you a baby monkey and a baby monkey. I'll be, yeah, I'm having a baby monkey. That's a great idea. And my husband was like, just everyone just stop. Can we just talk about the one you're pregnant with now that you are pregnant with? But my mind had already moved on. I was like, no, it's not working out. You've catastrophized already because you're so used to the worst happening that you just go there already and you go into that survival mode already. Well, what next then? Yeah, that's right. So, um,
00:21:31
Speaker
Anyway, he gave me the mesoprostrol in the room and I went home and took it. I took that tablet before I even hit the car. So yeah, and then it got to the point where I was like, this is not working, I need a new doctor. And as much as I love that doctor and he was such a beautiful man and he really tried for us, I was like, I'm not gonna get here with you.
00:21:51
Speaker
So I ended up going to another lady who was completely different and she was very much into vitamins, she was into supplements, she was into just a whole heap of other stuff. You know, you go to a doctor, they'll tell you something different. So anyway, she did...
00:22:09
Speaker
She did round three and in December, I had a pickup in December and they almost didn't let me do it. Like they were like, if you don't get your period by the first December, we're not doing you. And I was like, I'm going to get my period by the first December. I reckon I got it. They said 12 o'clock cutoff, 1130. I said, yep, it's here, let's do it. So I literally just snuck in. And then they took me for a blood test. They're like, oh, your levels are high. I'm like, I'm not going to Christmas period. You are doing this pickup. And it's really lucky because that's the pickup that dumb.
00:22:36
Speaker
I had my one normal embryo out of 38. So 38 eggs, they took over three rounds over six months.
Success with IVF and Pregnancy
00:22:43
Speaker
And, and the only normal one was my son, which they put in March. So, I mean, you know, it's, it was pretty hard. Like I, you know, and I'm doing all of this while I'm trying to run a company, um, trying to be a mother to my six year old. Um, you know, seasons are like, you know, it's a funny thing because, you know,
00:23:06
Speaker
seasons, I'm a very, I take a lot of, I take a lot of stock in spirits and seasons and all that kind of stuff. And you know, I love spring because I had my children in spring and my children are born a month apart.
00:23:25
Speaker
And, um, you know, I ended up having packs pretty much on the same due date as my first loss kicked all it off, like literally to the week. So, you know, it was kind of like sliding doors. You know, I had this horrific, horrific year in 2020. And then in 2021, I had this beautiful baby, but then it's still the whole process of having my, my son.
00:23:49
Speaker
and actually hitting all the same milestones as I've been through like that was also a lot to unpack. Yeah and it's also you what I hear from your story is you've literally gone back to back to back to back to back you've just gone massively with the forward of I'm going to try I'm going to make this happen I'm going to have a baby and you said it yourself earlier is that lack of stopping and acknowledging what was happening to you in that moment and taking the space
00:24:14
Speaker
And I think there's two things in that. I think there's that desire to have a baby that overcomes everything else and it takes over your life in so many ways. And then I also think it's the way that because society doesn't validate early pregnancy loss in the same way as a later term loss, and you're not given any advice really about trying to conceive again and what you should do for your emotional or mental health in that gap in between, that we just move on. We just keep going because we have this perception that having a baby in our arms will fix everything in a way.
00:24:44
Speaker
People don't talk about it, but it's happening behind closed doors, hidden behind smiling faces. There are so many people suffering in silence right now, unable to access the support that they need and deserve, simply because they don't even know that there is support available.
00:25:08
Speaker
The pink elephants community is made up of people from all over Australia. Some come from the big smoke, others from the bush. Some of us have heaps of friends and family around, others have none.
00:25:24
Speaker
Some have lost babies at five weeks. Some had ectopic pregnancies. Some had multiple ultrasounds. Others only ever saw the two red lines on a positive pregnancy test. But we all have something in common. We have all lost a baby. We are all bereaved parents.
00:25:49
Speaker
There are estimated to be over 100,000 of us across Australia every single year. Please help us connect with these people to give them the support that they deserve. No one should have to lose a baby and be left on their own to navigate their grief. Help Pink Elephant support more bereaved parents. Visit pinkelephants.org.au
00:26:20
Speaker
I think I want to also talk and unpack a little bit about, I mean, what was that experience of that pregnancy after loss with packs like for you? Once you'd got past those first 12 weeks, did that carry on? Did the anxiety go all the way through? How was that? Yeah, no, it was really hard because I think, you know,
00:26:41
Speaker
I literally traumatized myself in 2020. My mental health, Sam, got that bad. And this is really hard for my husband to listen to. I drive across a bridge every morning on my way to work. And one morning after that third thing, there was a massive fucking truck coming this way. I thought I could just drive straight into that truck and no one would give a shit.
00:27:04
Speaker
That's how bad it got. And that actually frightened myself. I honestly frightened myself. I remember it was like yesterday. And then from then on in, I took the tunnel because I did not trust myself driving across that bridge because I literally freaked myself out that much. Anyway, I went to work and held a meeting. Pretended.
00:27:23
Speaker
So it's, um, you know, by the time you do get pregnant with your baby, you are so fucked up that you, um, it's every thing is just.
00:27:37
Speaker
times 10. So, you know, even, you know, you know, taking pregnancy tests, you take 50 of them. You're sitting there, you're going, oh my God, yesterday was dark in today's light. Like those fucking tests. Like seriously, they, they, they are literally like trauma sticks. And they are. Um, we shouldn't have to pay for them. They should be even to us for free. They should, they should be subsidised. Um,
00:28:03
Speaker
waiting for your scan at seven weeks. And I remember they rang me and they said, oh, it's really busy today. We're going to have to put it back. And I was like, no, no, no, I'm coming at one o'clock. You cannot make me wait till tomorrow. I cannot. And I burst into tears and those poor receptions. They're so lovely. So they fitted me in. And like even just hearing my son's heartbeat for the first time, you know, my husband burst into tears because he just knew how how much that meant for us.
00:28:33
Speaker
at that time. And I remember telling him, you need to take photos of this baby because I didn't have a photo of all my other babies. You need to take a photo. That's kept saying to me and my poor husband's there like going this.
00:28:43
Speaker
Because you're not sure whether you're allowed. Yeah. And, you know, waiting, you know, having your 10 week scan where we had lost our last baby was traumatizing. You know, I went to that scan bawling my eyes out. You know, by the time every single scan, like, scan anxiety is a real thing. Like, it is a real thing.
Impact on Relationships and Mental Health
00:29:07
Speaker
And it's, you know, it's really scary. And, um, yeah. And I, and I told nobody, not one person knew I was pregnant for the first 12 weeks. So I'm kind of like the problem, right? So I'm feeding into this 12 week rule where, you know, I'm not telling anyone and we're keeping it a secret because, you know, I just, I just didn't want to tell people because AI was already in that mindset. Well, no one really cares. And, um,
00:29:33
Speaker
if this happens again then I just need to I will just be even more angrier than I was the last three times.
00:29:40
Speaker
I want everyone to hear that no you're not playing into the problem by not sharing your pregnancy and I think that's really important because we talk about this 12-week rule and it's almost like we've gone the complete opposite now and everyone feels the pressure to share their pregnancy from day one and actually what's needed is to perhaps just share it with a chosen few that if you do have a loss again you've got a circle of support you've got people who can be there for you
00:30:06
Speaker
but it also needs to be such an individual and personal choice. Not everyone is ready to share a pregnancy, particularly not a pregnancy after loss because of the anxiety that's riding through that. And you're almost in survival mode, right? You're just literally counting down the hours. Every time you go to the toilet, you're checking to see if there's bleeding. Anytime there's an appointment, anytime you feel something slightly different, you're questioning everything. So I don't feel that there should be a pressure on us to break the 12-week rule when we're pregnant. I feel like that rule needs to be challenged.
00:30:36
Speaker
don't want you to think like that was something that you did wrong, if that makes sense? Yeah, no, I'm really um, um...
00:30:43
Speaker
It's, you know, it's really, really hard. Like, you know, after you've had a miscarriage and, you know, I was really lucky. Like, there are women who their only experience of pregnancy is after a miscarriage. Like, I was so blessed and lucky that I was able to have a naive pregnancy where nothing was going to go wrong. And, you know, I'm actually really lucky to have that. And some people don't have that.
00:31:09
Speaker
Um, which is, you know, it's just really heartbreaking, but, um, you know, and it didn't help the fact that all of these milestones are hitting on the exact same, you know, um, we went for our first disastrous scan in the 29th of April. I'm getting my 12 week scan in the end of April. Um, you know, I didn't tell my son until I was almost 20 weeks pregnant and he was devastated last time. And, um,
00:31:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's, you know, I struggled to look at baby things. I had switched off my social media for 12 months because I constantly got fed baby advertising and you can't switch it off. You know, I had stopped talking to all of my friends. So even when I got pregnant, like, who was I going to tell nobody?
00:31:52
Speaker
Because you've withdrawn. Because I was just so horrible at me to everybody and that's you know that's probably my biggest regret because yeah I have lost a lot of friends over this like and so what I'm trying to say is like this shit impacts every single it is literally like a bomb goes off in your life and it just splatters on everything and it affects everything and it's not just about not having a baby at the end it's about
00:32:15
Speaker
you know your relationships with people it's your relationships with your family it's your relationships with your partner it's you know how you know it affects your friendships with people and um it's uh it's it's it's massive yeah and i and and it's not just about not having a baby like um
00:32:34
Speaker
People need to stop minimizing it and go, well, you just had a baby, she'll have another one. Um, so it's, you know, you know, I didn't buy a cotton until I was 30 weeks pregnant. So, and in hindsight, like now I feel like I've been robbed of that experience with my son because now I wish I could take it back.
00:32:53
Speaker
now that, you know, it did work out for me, but, you know, I did not believe I was having a baby even till the minute they took that baby out. And I still have a video of my birth and just the terror of asking that woman, is my baby going to be okay? And she actually said to me, yeah, he's already crying. And I just went burst into tears. And my husband burst into tears because he was the same. Like he's traumatized as well. Yeah. And I want to talk about the part, I think, but I also want to then highlight that part, what you just said.
00:33:22
Speaker
because people also have this false narrative that once you get past that magical 12-week mark that then you can believe in the baby and then you can have a normal pregnancy and what we actually see is the complete opposite of that that this anxiety carries with us not just through till the baby's in your arms it can actually impact us when we've got the baby in our arms as well. So I think that that's really important to highlight. It's crippling anxiety too like and I used to poke
00:33:47
Speaker
packs every day. I had a ritual, every morning I'd wake up and I'd poke that baby and I would not stop poking it until it moved. That would be the most poked baby in Australia. Yeah. And I remember one, I think I was like 30, 30, 30 something weeks pregnant and I poked him one morning and he didn't move and I thought, oh my God.
00:34:07
Speaker
And I poked him and poked him and I rolled over and he did not move. And I got out of bed and I went downstairs and I thought how the fuck am I going to tell my husband that this baby is dead?
00:34:19
Speaker
So I got the juice and that kid did not move for an hour and I literally lost my shit. So it's, um, yeah, it's like, and, and, and that kind of stuff is, um, it's not seen by anyone else, right? No, six o'clock in the morning, sitting there by myself, I can't wake my husband. I'm telling this.
00:34:40
Speaker
So it's, um, yeah, it's, um, and again, it's, it's just stuff that you deal with by yourself because otherwise people will think you're crazy. Um, and people do want, people naturally want you to be happy. And they're just like, and I knew when I told people after my 20 week scan that I was pregnant, um, they were like, Oh, thank God. Oh my God. She's gonna have a baby. Everything's all good. Um,
00:35:08
Speaker
That's just what people's natural reaction is, right? That's just what that's just what they. And they kind of meet your pregnancy. I know the same for you, but it was for me. I found it really hard when people met me with so much joy about a baby that I couldn't believe in yet. So they were so excited and like, oh, girl, boy, your names and la, la, la, la. And I was just like.
00:35:28
Speaker
go away. Just go away. Get away from me. I can't even go there. And I remember just feeling like the moodiest, most horrible person in the world because I just did not want to take any of that joy on because for me taking the joy on was then risking the thing that your heart is, whether you like it or not, is so already attached to. And I don't think people see that either. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a pretty, um,
00:35:51
Speaker
I'm a pretty like resilient person. I can, I, you know, I work in a business where I can absorb copious amounts of pressure, but that, that experience that I had in 2020 leading into 2021, like it, it was, it was, it was a bomb.
Reflecting on Support Systems
00:36:08
Speaker
And I also think it's the experiences that I had and the lack of, um,
00:36:15
Speaker
the lack of support that I got directly after my miscarriage really was the, the
00:36:25
Speaker
the, what do you call it? The foundation of all the other bullshit that piled up on top of it. And it just, and I can't help but think if, you know, if, if I'd, if I'd have known where to get that support, if someone had given me that support at the start, maybe all of the other shit wouldn't have got to the point of where it got. Compound trauma, right? Yeah. Sometimes I look back and I think, I can't believe that's my life and I still can't believe that that's my life. Um,
00:36:57
Speaker
It's definitely not somewhere that I ever thought I would particularly be. I never thought that would happen to me. It had not happened to anyone that I know of.
00:37:09
Speaker
Um, that shared that experience with me. And I think, you know, the one thing that I get, um, I don't know if joy is the right word, but you know, I, I just got to the stage and I was like, fuck it. I'm going to talk about this. And if it makes people feel uncomfortable, then they can feel uncomfortable.
00:37:26
Speaker
And, you know, you would probably get this as well. And then, you know, people feel like they can talk to you about stuff. Like I've had people that I know share their IVF journeys with me. I've had people share their miscarriage journeys with me. And I know exactly what they're feeling. And so, you know, I would have...
00:37:49
Speaker
And I think that's how I came across you. I remember I never listened to a podcast in my life. I never really used Instagram that much. And I saw a video of you on Instagram one day and I thought, oh my God, I can't believe this lady is openly sharing her story about losing her baby. And I just thought that it just blew my mind that there are people out there that did that.
00:38:17
Speaker
I remember that video because I remember we DMed afterwards. That was my third miscarriage in 2020 as well. Yeah. Awful, right. But yeah, someone has to speak. You have to, someone has to go first with this as well. They're talking about it. They're sharing it. I don't know. It didn't feel brave to me in the time. It felt natural and the thing to do.
00:38:36
Speaker
But from sharing that experience, the floods of DMs that then open up and the people that reach out to you and share their stories, and that's what you said in yours, that now people know that you're almost like a trusted person to go to. And I guess what's the next step on from that? How do we move it so it's not just put on the onus of those of us with lived experience to support those?
00:38:57
Speaker
who are going through this? How do we normalise this conversation so that everyone knows how to support someone through loss? Because if it's one in four pregnancies or an estimated 100 to 150,000, we don't know the number again because we don't have the data, but babies lost every year to miscarriage, then everyone should know how to provide support, validation, empathy and connection for those that go through this. So how do we move to there from just those with lived experience helping each other?
00:39:28
Speaker
So if you look back at your experiences, what was that one thing that if was different would have made a huge difference to you? What would you change within the system now so that no one goes through it in the same way that you went through it?
00:39:45
Speaker
I think definitely the one thing I would change is I would like to see women, when they experience a miscarriage, get access to support as soon as possible. I think that's the one lesson in my fabulous experience that I had with baby loss. Because the sooner that you can get to women, even just tell them about hotlines and, you know,
00:40:18
Speaker
organizations such as the Pink Elephant Foundation, I had no idea. Like if someone had of handed me a pink elephant pamphlet that day back in 2020, my experiences, and it turned out okay for me, but what if it didn't turn out okay? And there was many, many times where I pretty much thought, no, this is not gonna be okay.
00:40:46
Speaker
you know, I just would love to see, I would love to see a pink elephant pamphlet in every obstetrician's office. I actually don't know why there isn't one. All the obstetricians that I go to, I go, hey, have you heard about this, heard about this organization? You get a pamphlet for every other fucking thing. Like, why can't you have a pink elephant pamphlet in there? So, you know, and I would like people to really understand
00:41:12
Speaker
what miscarriage can do to a person's mindset. It's not just about having a baby. It's about all the other shit that goes with it. It's about, you know, it's about, like I said before, how you interact with people, how you see people, how you, how are you,
00:41:41
Speaker
you know, are with your family, with your husband. Like it's all that together. It's not just about having a baby. Um, because, you know, I think, you know, you know, most people will probably go on to have a baby, God willing, right? So it's, it's about all the other shit that goes with it. Yes.
00:42:03
Speaker
That's what I want people to understand. So whether you can make a pay for that, I don't know. I think it's more than a pamphlet. It's funding as well, right? It's having the capacity and the resources to ensure that each person who has a loss is given basically a bereavement pathway as options for support. And there's more than just pink elephants as well. But being pointed to support from a medical professional
00:42:27
Speaker
it says this experience is worthy of support here's where you go it's okay to grieve the loss of your baby versus leave hospital without a baby in your arms not pointed to for support there's silence around miscarriage and you're told oh well you just get on with it you just try and have another baby it's common off you go you'll be fine
00:42:47
Speaker
and so then you isolate yourself in your grief and you don't access support which we know from research leads to poor mental health outcomes and it leads to things like you talked about which are devastating but suicidal thoughts and there is I believe and I know from evidence as well that we can do so much more with early intervention that can ensure that women don't get to that point and we should be doing so much more to make sure that they don't
00:43:10
Speaker
I can't thank you enough for sharing that experience publicly because I think it will help to change the narrative and to make a difference, so thank
Encouragement and Support Network
00:43:19
Speaker
you. Yeah, no problem. Today's episode may have brought up some feelings for you that you need some support around. That's totally okay. Head to pinkelephants.org.au to find access to our circle of support, your safe space where you can be met with empathy and understanding throughout all of your experiences of early pregnancy loss.
00:43:39
Speaker
We're here for you. You are not alone.