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EPISODE 11: Missed miscarriages and coping with pregnancy after loss with Maddy Zanatta
1.2k Plays1 year ago
This week we are joined by Maddy Zanatta. Maddy is a fashion and beauty content creator, a model, a musician and mum to her beautiful rainbow baby Senna. She went through a lot to get her rainbow baby, which she has shared on her social platforms and today she generously shares with us in more detail.
This story is one we know many of you will relate to. Maddy shares what happened after her miscarriages, how the silence surrounding miscarriage led to her feeling let down by the sisterhood and how profoundly pregnancy after loss affected her.
Get in touch with Maddy: https://instagram.com/maddyzanatta?igshid=OGQ5ZDc2ODk2ZA==
EARLY PREGNANCY LOSS SUPPORT
If you or someone you know has experienced miscarriage or early pregnancy loss, please know you are not alone.
For crisis support, please call Lifeline - 13 11 14.
- PANDA
- The Gidget Foundation
- Access all our support
- Connect with Peer Support
- Join Online Communities
- Emotional Support Resources
- Follow @pinkelephantssupport
STACEY JUNE LEWIS
If you’d like to reach out to Stacey for counselling she is currently taking new clients. Find out more via her Website or Instagram.
You can also follow her personal Instagram account where she shares some of her lived experience.
JOIN THE MISCARRIAGE REBELLION
Pink Elephants believe everyone deserves support following the loss of their baby.
We have been providing support to many ten's of thousands of people for nearly 8 years, raising funds through generous donors. We now need ongoing Government support to empower our circle of support.
We are calling on the Government to provide us with $1.6million over 4 years to help bridge the gap. Sign our petition.
Early pregnancy loss is not just a private grief, but a national issue that requires collective empathy, awareness, and action. By recognising and addressing this, we can make meaningful change in the lives of 100,000+ women who experience early pregnancy loss every year.
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Transcript
Introduction: Addressing Miscarriage Stigma
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Miscarriage Rebellion. I'm Sam Payne, CEO and co-founder of the Pink Elephant Support Network. And I'm Stacey June Lewis, counsellor, psychotherapist and broadcaster. This podcast is where we share stories of many Australians who have lost their babies to early pregnancy loss.
00:00:21
Speaker
With evidence and empathy, we unpack the shame, blame and stigma and the lack of support that many face. This is a loss that has been silenced for too long. We deserve better. We are here to normalise the conversation. And we're here to make lasting change.
Guest Maddie Zenata: Sharing Personal Experiences
00:00:38
Speaker
Today we welcome the wonderful Maddie Zenata to the miscarriage rebellion. Maddie is a fashion and beauty content creator, a model, a musician, and a mum to her beautiful rainbow baby Senna. Maddie went through a lot to get her rainbow baby, which she has shared on her social platforms. And today she generously shares in more detail.
00:01:04
Speaker
This story is one we know many of you will relate to. So without further ado, please welcome Maddie to the podcast.
00:01:14
Speaker
Really grateful to have you here today, Maddie, on the Miscarriage Rebellion to share your experience with our listeners and to help us advocate for change. So for the benefit of the listeners that don't maybe follow you on Instagram or don't know your story, if you could tell us what happened to you, what were your experiences of miscarriage?
00:01:35
Speaker
So my husband and I had two missed miscarriages. So a missed miscarriage is when you don't have any symptoms, you just find out at your ultrasound. So we actually got pregnant on our honeymoon, which was lovely. And we're super excited.
00:01:54
Speaker
Um, when I got the test, I just couldn't believe that it happened like the first time that we tried, which we're extremely grateful for, extremely lucky for. Um, and you know, I'd already planned how to tell our parents and how to, um, have a baby shower and all this sort of thing. You plan this whole life as soon as you see that test, I think. Um, and never in a million years did I ever think that that could happen, that I would be a statistic.
00:02:25
Speaker
So I went to see my obstetrician, Dr. Drew Moffrey, and it was our very first, I think it was our first, maybe our second appointment and the very second time we'd seen, you know what, it was the second time because we had gone to our initial ultrasound and found the heartbeat and everything.
00:02:46
Speaker
And I remember him just really struggling to find the heartbeat and he just kept saying like, it's okay. Like this is an old machine. Let me just keep checking, keep checking.
Going Public with Miscarriage Stories: Breaking Taboos
00:02:55
Speaker
And then, then he's face changed. And I thought, Oh, what do you mean? And I just remember my whole like world just crashing down. Um, and it was just the worst thing that could have happened in that moment.
00:03:11
Speaker
And even just thinking about that has really brought back all those emotions in that time. And I think it was just the shock of it. The fact that I'd never... I wasn't prepared, wasn't emotionally or physically prepared for that. It wasn't even on my scope of things for it to happen. And then when I...
00:03:32
Speaker
Called my parents and told them I found out that you know, my nan had had two miscarriages. My mom had had a miscarriage. My sister-in-law had two miscarriages. And I just thought I felt a bit betrayed because no one had talked about it. No one had prepared me for that. Like you hear all these things like, oh no, you shouldn't tell people until 14 weeks just in case.
00:03:59
Speaker
or you shouldn't do this, so you shouldn't do that, you know, just in case the worst happens. And unfortunately the worst had happened. And I remember thinking, I don't want to be like that. So in the moment I just put a post up on Instagram just because I thought if I could help one person, and I know you don't want to think about miscarriage when you're pregnant, but if I could just prepare one person,
00:04:26
Speaker
just to, you know, just so they can mentally prepare for that. Not that you can, but yeah.
00:04:35
Speaker
I don't know where I'm going with this. No, but I know what you mean. I do. I think you'd rather say it's that whole education piece, right? Yes. For you, you almost felt cheated by the sisterhood because no one talked about miscarriage to you. So it was something that happened to others. Yes. You knew it was maybe common. You didn't know how common. No, yeah. And you wouldn't think yourself would be a statistic either.
00:04:59
Speaker
Yeah. None of us do, right? Yeah. And then you land here and I've heard it described in a way like it's almost like you wake up swimming in a different sea. 100%.
Support and Stigma: The Role of Peer Groups
00:05:07
Speaker
You have no idea until you actually go through it. And so you wanting to show on Instagram is a beautiful way of wanting to almost prepare people so that if it happens. Yes. But it's also about normalizing the conversation.
00:05:20
Speaker
And that's what it's more so about was normalizing it and saying that, hey, this has happened to me. If it's also happened to you, I'm with you. Yes. Solidarity. Yes. Like we are now all a part of this club that we haven't chosen to be in. Yeah. None of us want to be here. No, exactly. Yeah. But we're all here and only we can really understand what it's like.
00:05:41
Speaker
Yes. Yes. So I know that my girlfriend, she'd had quite a few miscarriages, quite a few miscarriages, and she was just this rock to me during that time because she understood. Yeah. And a lot of people didn't. You know, the... The comments? Oh, well. Try again.
00:06:01
Speaker
The worst ones slightly minimize it to try and make you feel better I think more so that to make them Feel like they are trying to give advice and that makes them feel better managing their own discomfort Yes, it's yes. It's they don't want to be put in that awkward situation where you start crying and getting emotional in front of them So they kind of brush it off. Yeah, and that's the worst thing that you could possibly do. I
00:06:24
Speaker
Yeah, because we're terrible at dealing with grief. Yeah. And then you add in the fact that this is an invisible loss of a baby that they've not seen. Yes. So it's not the normal grief trajectory. It's a reversal of life order. It's not like an old person that's passed away. Yeah. It's not someone who you know their personality and you physically held them.
00:06:43
Speaker
And then you add in this kind of, imagining like a Venn diagram, you add in then baby death into that and women's health and periods and blood. And it's so many taboos and stigmas all in one thing that it's too hard for people to go there.
00:07:01
Speaker
And not just dealing with the grief of losing your baby. It's the grief of losing this whole life that you had suddenly planned for the last, you know, 12 weeks or however many weeks you were when it happened. And I think that's the worst part is that suddenly you don't know where you stand anymore. And I feel like in that moment I changed as a person.
00:07:29
Speaker
And it's so strange. It's so strange. And it was probably the same like when my, my daughter now was born. I also changed in that moment too. So it's just a really weird juxtaposition.
00:07:45
Speaker
Yeah, and it is, and it's not maybe something when you're writing it, that can sound strange to hear in itself, but it is a profound moment in your life that you stay with you forever. Forever. Forever. And even though, you know, we have our beautiful rainbow daughter, and I couldn't imagine not having her now, that doesn't diminish the two that we had before.
00:08:07
Speaker
Yeah and I want to talk to you about that as well because I've followed your story and I know and I think it's beautiful we've got this element of hope you've got Senna now and she's gorgeous and this beautiful chubby little baby that just when you get the shares on Instagram when you know what someone's been through you just look at it and you just have so much joy but what about that in-between moment of picking yourself up?
00:08:28
Speaker
when you've had miscarriages and you know that you really do want to have a baby in your arms, you want to build a family, you've got that vision, how do you go again?
00:08:39
Speaker
I remember like after our first one, it made me realize, okay, I do really want a baby. I really want to start a family. Not that I wasn't keen before, but we were kind of like, should we, shouldn't we, let's just try and have fun and whatnot. But then I was like, okay, no, I want this life that I've envisioned for myself suddenly. So I just, we jumped straight back in as soon as we could. I had a DNC. So we,
00:09:04
Speaker
Because it had been about three weeks and my body just wasn't naturally doing it. So went with that option. And so we started trying straight away. Very luckily got pregnant again the next month, like after we could try. And I just was so nervous. Every ultrasound
00:09:26
Speaker
I hated it. To this day, I hate ultrasounds. And I am sorry, Dr Drew, but I hate your ultrasound. Every time I went in there, I was like, I hate this room so much. And we were in that room so many times. And then unfortunately, it was like a week after I told my mom, I finally felt confident to tell her the second time.
00:09:51
Speaker
and a week after we lost our second baby. And I just thought, how am I going to ever feel confident to try again knowing that this might happen again?
00:10:06
Speaker
And we had so many tests done and everything came back negative. There was no rhyme or reason to it, which made it worse. I feel like, well, my body's just betrayed me and I don't understand why this has happened. There's no closure.
00:10:23
Speaker
And I remember, I think it's on my Instagram stories of just sitting in the car and I just thought, how am I going to get the confidence to start again and try again and go through all the first trimester of pregnancy again to not have anything at the end?
00:10:41
Speaker
So pregnancy is such a hard toll on your body and that first trimester for a lot of women sucks. So I've now gone through that twice with no reward at the end. So it's not just the emotional toll of that, but the physical toll as well of having to go
Courage and Challenges: Trying for Another Child
00:11:00
Speaker
through these things and have another DNC. So it was just.
00:11:04
Speaker
It took a lot of courage to go, OK, I think I want to try again. So much courage. Yeah. So we took a break. We talked things through. And finally, I got to a place where I thought maybe we should try again. And then I just was a mess the entire first trimester, specifically the entire first trimester. And just thinking back.
00:11:30
Speaker
of where my head was was so bad. I was in my head, space was not good. And I remember Dr. Drew saying to me, you need to see a counselor, talk to someone, work through this because it will come back to you on your next pregnancy. And he was right. He really was. And I'm telling you now, up until this day, they affect me. Everything has affected who I am as a person, how I am as a mother.
00:12:01
Speaker
It it stays with you forever. And I know that my other friends who've also had miscarriages, their parenting is very different to the people who haven't. Not that it's a bad thing or a good thing. It's just different. Yeah. And, you know, some people who look in and go, oh, you're a helicopter mom or you're a helicopter parent. And it's like, no, I love my child. I will do anything to protect that child. I went through a lot to get this child.
00:12:30
Speaker
So, I will fight. Yes, yes. I will. Not alone. In rapper and glam rap if I have to. Yeah. But yeah, it took a lot of courage to try again. And I remember it, it didn't affect me a lot. And obviously, Pink Elephants helped so much. I remember
00:12:49
Speaker
I was lost. I wanted to talk to someone. It was like midnight. I didn't know who to talk to. I didn't want to put the burden on my friends or my husband who was also struggling as well and had no one to talk to. I think it's the husbands and the partners do get left behind a bit there, especially, you know,
00:13:12
Speaker
it through all of pregnancy, actually. Yeah. No, they're trying to hold space and support their partner and their loved one. Yeah. He was whilst managing their own grief and fears and anxieties and trying to make sure you're okay in this. It's a really messy, hard thing to do. And the grief is often minimized and not acknowledged. Yes, definitely. And I always try to include him, but also I think that he just didn't want to think about it either. And he didn't want to keep bringing it up. And to me, I just couldn't stop thinking about it. So he's,
00:13:43
Speaker
his coping mechanism, his coping method was to brush it off. Not brush it off, but to just not talk about it. There's different types of griefers, the listeners as well. We often hear this and it can be a sticking point, right? Because you feel like your partner's not grieving.
00:14:03
Speaker
And sometimes that can be hurtful to you because you are hurting so much. But what it actually is, is you've got intuitive grievers and you've got instrumental grievers. And instrumental grievers are people that do and try and fix things and move forward and change things. And I'm that, and that's why pink elephants exist.
00:14:21
Speaker
And then you have the intuitive grievers who might more outwardly, emotionally display the grief. And often what you find, their couples have very different grieving styles and they also can vary. You might be one, one hour, then the next hour are completely different. And as the grief kind of changes away from that immediacy of those first few weeks,
00:14:41
Speaker
You can also change the way that you evolve and grow around grief. So it's really interesting that when we unpack that, it's not your partner or you. It's natural. But again, that speaks to miscarriage. We're given so little education about it.
Navigating Grief: Differences in Partner Styles
00:14:55
Speaker
And like we said about the sisterhood not telling you what had happened as well.
00:14:58
Speaker
Because we haven't talked about it, then what we've lost in a way is that ability to support each other through it and normalize different reactions and say, hey, my partner behaved this way. And I thought he wasn't grieving too. And actually what I learned, that was his coping mechanism.
00:15:16
Speaker
But see, that's what I found on Pink Elephants because it was a Facebook group with so many of us in the club, which is awful, but so supportive. And you could say, hey, I'm feeling this. And everyone could then say, I'm feeling this too. This is normal. Or, you know, here's some advice for this. Or again, you know, my partner did this and this is this. So it was really helpful in that sense. But I mean, I could do that at one o'clock in the morning when I was up awake because that's all I could think about.
00:15:45
Speaker
And you weren't the only other person up at one in the morning. Yes, exactly. There would have been other women in that group at that point. Yeah. And I mean, you had a pregnancy after loss page as well. So, you know, I got close to a few people who were pregnant at the same time as me going through the same things. And, you know, unfortunately, if they have another loss, then, you know, we could help grieve with them. And it just became this like real sisterhood.
00:16:09
Speaker
You can create your own connections from the group, right? You can connect with us that you might. It's almost like, we say this a lot, but when you leave hospital with a baby in your arms, you get a mum's group and you get that given to you by the health system. They set you up with support. But yet we leave a baby with, leave hospital, sorry, with no baby in our arms. And we're left alone so that when we find something that has pink elephants, online support, it is that for us. It's, okay, it's all the people that I don't have to pretend. I don't have to wear that brave face for.
00:16:39
Speaker
Yes, oh my gosh, yes. How did that look for you, that brave face, like what you were telling people outwardly versus what you were actually, how did that present in your world?
00:16:49
Speaker
I think it depended on who I was talking to. So I know that some people didn't understand, so I just didn't bring it up. And other people who do understand, you know, two of my friends who had like close friends who also had miscarriages, they understood. It's a hard journey and everything triggers you. So just a few was like, we went away with our friend group and seeing everyone with their babies.
00:17:14
Speaker
and it was fresh like we just had our second miscarriage and i remember thinking like why am i here this is awful but like also i've had so much fun and i love my friends but just seeing them with their babies and cuddling them and
00:17:30
Speaker
Whoo. It makes me want to cry. Yeah. And I, and I did know that feeling. Yeah. And I had it. I had like a tear in my eye and I was trying so hard, not, and I didn't want to be that person at the party that cries. Everyone's like, oh, Maddie's crying again. Cause she had a baby die or, you know, you just didn't want to be that person. Um, and I know my friends wouldn't be like that, but you feel like that. And I remember my friend who had the multiple miss characters, she looked me in the eye and she's like,
00:18:02
Speaker
And I was like, it is what it is, you know? So in that moment, we had that moment of solidarity and she knew exactly what I was thinking because she'd been there and like she has two beautiful kids now. And it was just that moment of like, I understand that really helped me. Well, I think because I'm a singer, Mother's Day, I decided to do a gig on Mother's Day, which was the worst possible thing I could have done.
00:18:32
Speaker
I think I spent most of the time just holding back tears. And I had, I remember crying, I was thinking of Valerie or something, and I had just tears running down my face. And I was like, I had to have a brave face. I was at work, looking at everyone on Mother's Day with their mother, with their babies and moms. And I thought, this is stupid. Why did I do this? Thinking that it would take my mind off it, but it put me directly back, you know, into that grief again. So,
00:19:03
Speaker
thinking that you have to go back to work with a brave face because I don't think they recognize or I think the government has just recognized.
Legislative Change: Recognizing Miscarriage as Loss
00:19:11
Speaker
So we now have leave so elephants lobbied for an amendment to the Fair Work Act. Yeah. And what that means is that anyone that has a miscarriage is entitled to two days paid bereavement leave and the partners to two days.
00:19:26
Speaker
not enough. It's not about the days. For us, the reason we lobbied for that was the validation aspects that it puts miscarriage in line with any other type of bereavement. So previously it was sick leave. And as you'll know, it's not like you've broken your arm. You don't have the flu. My baby died. I should get bereavement leave.
00:19:46
Speaker
So it brings it into line, but what we're now seeing, which is really positive, is workplaces are actually extending that amount of leave. That's amazing. And they're offering a lot longer, like anything from five days, right through to 12 weeks we've heard of so far. Wow. Yeah. Amazing. QBE offered 12 weeks. That's amazing. And I think that we're starting to wake up to this as a society and starting just gradually now to understand the depth of the trauma.
00:20:11
Speaker
Yes. That we go through. Yeah. And I use that word intentionally. Yes. Trauma. It is. It's trauma. I mean, I know that I have PTSD in ultrasound rooms from ultrasound's room. Like the feeling that I get, even thinking about going into an ultrasound, it's awful. And then I would not wish this on anybody. And up until the, I mean, I say this, like up until the day my daughter was born, I didn't believe it was going to happen.
00:20:40
Speaker
And even when she was in my arms, I remember saying, oh my gosh, I'm going to drop her. Can you please remove her? I'm terrified. I just remember being terrified and it was meant to be the most beautiful. Sorry. I get it because I've been there. Yeah. And it was meant to be the most beautiful day of your life.
00:21:03
Speaker
I mean, you've got this shadow of other things that are still playing through your mind and trying to push. And it's not even intentionally that the shadow is there, that you know the shadow is there. Exactly. And I just remember thinking, like, what's wrong with me? Why am I not having this beautiful moment? And I had a maternal-assisted Caesar, so I helped pull her out because I thought that that would help.
00:21:30
Speaker
me realize that she's real. She's here. We finally have her, you know, it just, it didn't.
00:21:40
Speaker
I shared this publicly, but when my last baby was born, Rosie, my first words were, she's really real. She's really real. I just kept saying she's really real. And I was shaking and I was a mess because up until that point, she was not real because I couldn't allow my heart to fall in love with the risk of another loss. Yes. Yeah. And I had the shaking thing too. I couldn't stop shaking and I thought, is this a side effect of the epidural, whatever, spinal block or whatever?
00:22:06
Speaker
I think it is as well, but I also think there's the emotional aspect to it. Yeah. But I just remember feeling terrified. That's all I felt was terrified. And I remember getting back to the room and I was like, there's something wrong with me emotionally. And you know what? I look at photos and videos from that time. And it's scary because I look happy and I look OK. And I remember my brain was not OK.
00:22:30
Speaker
Yeah, you deserve so much more. There's a lot to unpack. Yeah. And then we get to that point with a baby in our arms and everyone's just like, okay. Oh, you're fine now. Yeah. Yeah. People don't talk about it, but it's happening behind closed doors, hidden behind smiling faces. There are so many people suffering in silence right now.
00:22:59
Speaker
unable to access the support that they need and deserve, simply because they don't even know that there is support available. The Pink Elephants community is made up of people from all over Australia. Some come from the Big Smoke, others from the bush. Some of us have heaps of friends and family around, others have none.
00:23:26
Speaker
Some have lost babies at five weeks. Some had ectopic pregnancies. Some had multiple ultrasounds. Others only ever saw the two red lines on a positive pregnancy test. But we all have something in common.
00:23:45
Speaker
We have all lost a baby. We are all bereaved parents. There are estimated to be over 100,000 of us across Australia every single year. Please help us connect with these people to give them the support that they deserve. No one should have to lose a baby and be left on their own to navigate their grief.
00:24:11
Speaker
Help Pink Elephant support more brave parents. Visit pinkelephants.org.au. And I think that that's really important to share and normalise. And we refer to organisations such as Gidget Foundation and Panda because we know that when we've gone through such a traumatic experience to have a baby in our arms, we are at higher risk of poor mental health outcomes, particularly when we get the baby. And so it's really important to know that and to watch out for those signs. Yes.
00:24:41
Speaker
And that's where you need to know where to go. And we'll link to those in the show notes. Yes, definitely. I think that comes to this continuity of care that needs to happen in the health system as well and acknowledgement of our losses. And you had an amazing obstetrician, Dr. Drew, who referred you to get some counseling, get some support. Yeah, he was incredible. No, everyone gets that. They'll get minimised of like, why are you this nervous? You had a miscarriage. It's okay. You're now 20 weeks, you should be fine. All that.
00:25:06
Speaker
That's the thing. Like, you know, my friend, she lost her baby at 24 weeks. One was, you know, stillborn and all those sort of things. And you just you never felt safe. No. Not once. And I remember this one time.
00:25:21
Speaker
I think I was about, I must have been about maybe 18 weeks pregnant and I hadn't felt her move yet. So it was all that. And it's all building up. Yeah. So all the moving, I felt what I thought might have been her. It could have been more like 16 weeks maybe. But I was, I just woke up a mess and I'd convinced myself that she disappeared from my stomach. Not that she had died, but that she was no longer there. Yeah.
00:25:50
Speaker
And that's not healthy. It's not possible. It's not physically possible for her to just disappear. And I remember, and I was a mess and I was inconsolably crying. And my husband was just like, what is, that's not a thing. Like that can't happen. And he's like, let's just go to the hospital. Let's get it done. Like, like go and get to the ultrasound and just double check that everything's okay to put your mind at ease. And I remember thinking, I don't want to.
00:26:16
Speaker
I don't want to know. I don't want to face it if that is real. Like if we've had another miscarriage, I don't want to know about it. I can't physically cope with that right now. So I also didn't, I just didn't want to know, but I'd also convinced myself that she wasn't there anymore. Yeah.
00:26:32
Speaker
It was scary. Yeah. And you're not alone. I see that one play out in our PAL, the Pregnancy After Loss online group that you referred to earlier. It's common. Very common. We all do it to ourselves, right? I can speak for it personally, but I see it within our community as well. That it's just, it's such a complex journey to go through Pregnancy After Loss.
00:26:55
Speaker
And again, it's minimized so much because we think it's the happy tick box. OK, well, now the pregnant past 12 weeks, you know, we're 14 weeks. It's fine. And it's not that case at all. It felt more like an uphill battle. Like, OK, we've we've we've gone past this obstacle course now.
00:27:14
Speaker
And then you're landing powerfully with the baby in your arms, but you're exhausted mentally because you've gone through so much to get to this point. Literally. That's exhausted mentally. And it got better when I could feel her. I started to feel a bit more hopeful, but then it was so every scam was nerve wracking.
00:27:33
Speaker
And then what's worse was Drew was really quick at finding the heartbeat because he knew what we were going through. But every other ultrasound we went to, the first thing I wanted to know was, is there a heartbeat? Is she okay? And that would be the first thing out of my mouth. Is she okay? Is she alive? Is she alive? Is she okay? And I think that was the first thing I said in the Caesarean too, because is she alive? Is she okay?
00:27:58
Speaker
And it is that as well. I know we've just kind of gone through in the last couple of years the guidelines for sonography have changed on how they deliver pregnancy lost news, but also subsequent pregnancies are managed within those guidelines. And they talk of things like ensuring that women are told as a heartbeat as soon as possible. Good. And I love that that they're in the guidelines. But then I go, how are we making sure this is happening in practice every day? Because I'm still hearing stories like yours every day where that isn't the case.
00:28:27
Speaker
They're silent. I hate it when they're silent. Tell me she's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm staring up at the ceiling and I can't look at anything else and I'm a frozen deer in headlights right now. Yeah, exactly. I'm gripping my husband's, um, like a vice every single time. Yeah.
00:28:45
Speaker
I guess we can hear a lot of different themes running through your story. I really like the bit about the sisterhood and if you'd have been told before maybe how that would have made you feel going into this.
00:29:00
Speaker
I guess it would have made you prepared. I don't want to say that you should be thinking about miscarriage when you're pregnant, but just to have it in the back of your mind that like, oh, my mom had two miscarriages and my sister-in-law or like my mother-in-law said, oh, we didn't even know that Kelly had two miscarriages. She didn't tell us. And I remember that hurt me because I was like, oh, well, should I not be telling you? Yes.
00:29:28
Speaker
And there it goes again. That wasn't her intention, obviously, but that to me, I was like, oh, should I stay silent? And then I thought, no, I don't want to stay silent about this because one, my babies deserve to be known about.
00:29:46
Speaker
You know, and secondly, everyone can benefit from hearing about this. Yes. You know, whether you're young or old or taking the stigma away and taking the questions away, when are you going to have a baby?
00:30:01
Speaker
Oh, you've just been married. So you're going to start trying like all these sort of things when you can have another baby or. Yeah, it should be getting now, right? Yes. Yeah, getting that now. All sorts of things. It's no one's business. If anyone's listening to this, can we stop those questions, please? It's not OK to ask them. Yeah. So a couple of months have gone by and I would answer and say, oh, no, I have to I've had two, but they're not living or I've had two miscarriages. And that would I mean, it's a bit of a
00:30:30
Speaker
It seemed a bit bitchy to do, but also I just wanted them to be like, oh, okay, well, maybe I won't ask that question. Good, made them a bit uncomfortable. Yeah, uncomfortable, exactly. Yeah. No, I've done that too. But it's also then about, it's really hard to be the person that's grieving and in the experience and education, educating people at the same time. Exactly.
00:30:53
Speaker
It's really difficult. We know this again, I've said this before, but it's the onus on victims almost. And we're not victims, but it's that whole thing that we see with domestic violence. Don't ask them to kind of be the ones to fix it. But that's what it feels like with miscarriage. It feels like we are managing everyone's reactions as well as managing our own grief.
00:31:11
Speaker
Yeah. And it's not good enough. Yeah. Yeah. We don't have the time. We don't have the, we're not able to have the capacity to just be in our own feelings and grieve, you know, with the work. Two days, we have to get back to work again. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that as well, what are your thoughts around that kind of perceptions around timelines and grief and miscarriage?
00:31:35
Speaker
I mean, even up until my daughter was born, even now, it's still, you know, I'm still crying at the thought of it. Like the thought of going into an ultrasound now, the thought of me trying for another baby right now. No, thank you. I don't want to go through that again. Even though we have one successful baby or one living baby, I still don't want to go through that just in case.
00:32:03
Speaker
I'm sure I will eventually, but at the moment it's fresh. Two years ago and it's still fresh. And we know many women and it can be decades ago and it's still part of them today. And that's not to scare anyone in any way, but it's almost to kind of reduce that minimisation of it.
00:32:25
Speaker
Like an online perspective because I posted about it that day. And I think in hindsight, if I had awaited until the next day, I wouldn't have posted. So I'm actually glad that I just ripped the band-aid off and posted about it. But still to this day, I get people saying, you know, what did you do differently?
00:32:44
Speaker
I'm going through the same thing as you. Thank you so much for talking about this. Thank you for making me feel normal. You know, when I was talking about trying again, I feel like this. Thank you so much for bringing it up. But then also you get
00:32:59
Speaker
The the amount of time someone said to me I'm so sorry The words I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry every dm. I was opening up Maddie. I'm so sorry I'm so sorry. This has happened to you. I'm so sorry to hear this I'm so and I started to hate the words. I'm so sorry You don't want people to feel sorry for you, right? That almost feels like sympathy not empathy even though we tell people to say I'm sorry Yeah, I hear what you're saying there. Yeah too much in a way. Yeah, so I mean I've
00:33:29
Speaker
I don't know what you would say instead of that but I remember thinking like if one person one more person says I'm so sorry to me I'm I'm gonna crack it because that started to become traumatic in itself and even to this day when I hear someone say I'm so sorry those it brings like a flood of emotion back over it kind of heightens my heart rate a little bit which is a symptom of PTSD and I'm not a counselor so I'm not diagnosing that in any way yeah but I know it is one yeah it is that
00:33:59
Speaker
It's hard though right but I think that's again you're a person of influence lots of people have access to your content that you put
Conclusion: Open Discussions for Societal Understanding
00:34:06
Speaker
online and it can be seen as brave and courageous to share it but the boundaries then become blurred of where's your privacy? Yes. And like how do you manage that?
00:34:16
Speaker
It's I'm glad that I did it and I'm glad that I've done it to help people. And also, why is it brave when I'm just posting about my life? You know, that it shouldn't be brave to come out like it was this big dirty secret. It shouldn't be. It wasn't a big dirty secret. They were my children, you know, whether they are alive or not.
00:34:38
Speaker
They're part of your family. Exactly. So it's not brave of me to come out and talk about it. This is just me telling you what is going on in my life exactly like I've just found this beautiful dress and you should look at it. Yeah. You know, to me, that's not. Yeah, it's not a brave thing. That's really meaningful.
00:34:59
Speaker
Well, it's true. Like it's not, it shouldn't be hidden away. It shouldn't be a secret. Again, what you said before, like it ties into the taboo subjects of periods and blood and all this sort of thing. And it just annoys me that we, we keep it inside so that other people feel comfortable. So we have to feel uncomfortable to make others feel comfortable when it should just be normalized.
00:35:28
Speaker
and no one needs to actually be uncomfortable. And also I don't know about you, but for me it was like, you can't upset me any more than I'm already upset. So if I cry, it's not the end of the world. Cause I've been all night crying anyways, right? So you can say anything to me right now. I'm probably more numb right now because of the armor that you wear.
00:35:48
Speaker
Yeah. So yeah, I'm glad that I talked about it because it does help so many people, but also it, it, yeah, it does have an emotional toll. Yeah. Yeah, it does. And I can see, I guess moving now, like looking forward. So part of the miscarriage rebellion is that we are intentionally telling your story. Yes.
00:36:08
Speaker
And there's a point to tell that story because we don't want people to feel sorry for us. We're not aiming for sympathy. We are looking to invoke empathy, which fosters more meaningful understanding of what we actually really, truly go through when our babies die to miscarriage.
00:36:23
Speaker
Yeah. But is the system as a whole, we want to incite action, we want to see change because for too long we've talked about it, this silence, shame, stigma and disenfranchised grief. So I guess for you, if there was one part of your experience that you could change or something you can change for the future for other women, what would that be? I think that
00:36:44
Speaker
you know, having more access to support, like, you know, pregnancy with your mum's groups, if you have a miscarriage or stillbirth, pregnancy loss, you need to have that support group recommended to you by your, your obstetrician or your midwife. I think that's definite. I think that workplaces, you need longer leave. Two days is not even enough for the physical side, let alone the mental aspects. Talk about it.
00:37:14
Speaker
openly talk about it. I think so you yourself don't sweep it under the rug as well because that's a big one. Like Dr. Drew said, get some counseling otherwise it will affect you whether you like it or not. So like my friend, she just threw herself into work and she just didn't let herself process it. And you know, it's coming out in different ways and it's not healthy and you've got to
00:37:44
Speaker
Give your brain and your body time to process it, not even to heal because you never fully heal, but just process what has happened. I remember it took me a long time to even realize what had happened.
00:37:59
Speaker
Yeah. And it's not about trying to heal. To come to terms with it. Yes, that's what I'm going to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's acceptance. Acceptance, exactly. And acceptance of a new version of you because of what has happened to you. Yeah. Grief changes you. Yeah. It does. Yeah. And it can be
00:38:16
Speaker
hard to hear when you're in it, but grief can change you in a way that can be a beautiful change. And that's not minimizing and finding a silver lining. We don't believe in that rubbish. That's not what that is, but it can open us up to be more empathetic. That was just about to come out of my mouth was that it makes you more empathetic. Yeah. Yeah. I was so black and white before all of this.
00:38:40
Speaker
I think that just talking about it, be open about it, let the world know because your babies deserve that. And secondly, you deserve that. You don't deserve to suffer in silence.
00:38:56
Speaker
Whether it be your parents or you don't have to tell Instagram, you don't have to tell the whole world, but just be open about it in conversation with your friends and family and... Well, it feels natural and right for you. For you, exactly. That might change as well, right? Yeah. One week it's good and then another week... You might not feel like wanting to talk about it, which is fine too. Yeah. But you should, whether it be a counselor in a professional setting or your friends and family or pink elephants, that's a good one.
00:39:23
Speaker
Yeah, because it's full of other people who get it as well, right? It's just finding someone who understands. Yeah. No. Yeah. Can you remember you and my husband saying like, you just don't understand unless you go through it. Yeah.
00:39:36
Speaker
It's hard, right? Because you don't, because we've not talked about it enough. And that's what part of this is, is that let's make everyone understand so that we don't have to just find those with lived experience to support us. Yeah. So why do we have to go looking for it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Amazing. Thank you.
00:39:57
Speaker
Today's episode may have brought up some feelings for you that you need some support around. That's totally okay. Head to pinkelephants.org.au to find access to our circle of support, your safe space where you can be met with empathy and understanding throughout all of your experiences of early pregnancy loss. We're here for you. You are not alone. If you enjoyed listening to the miscarriage rebellion, please help us by leaving a five star review wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:40:27
Speaker
The Miscarriage Rebellion is a Pink Elephants podcast produced by our friends at 3P Studio.