Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Ep 27. Sarah Vibert, CEO National Council for Voluntary Organisations (NCVO): Culture change is not linear
92 Plays3 years ago
“This is about structural issues in society and structural issues in the sector… Diversity and inclusion is a problem right across the sector… (and) the sector is about social justice and so there is an urgency for us as a sector to get this right.
Culture change is not a linear process… real culture change takes a long time… trust and healing is the very beginning of that sort of conversation.”
Sarah Vibert is the Interim CEO of NCVO, the National Council for Voluntary Organisations.
NCVO is a membership body that champions charities and volunteers. Its focus is supporting its member organisations and enabling their efforts to make the world a better place.
In the current context, NCVO is playing a key role in re-imagining the voluntary sector, collaborating with other infrastructure bodies and influencing government. NCVO is a founding member of The Civil Society Group, an informal group which aims at improving collaboration within the sector and streamlining engagement with government.
In February 2021, a leaked EDI Report revealed systemic issues around bullying, harassment and racism at NCVO. Having just stepped up to the CEO role the month before, Sarah talks about the journey she has taken her team and the organisation on, and the difficult process of rebuilding trust.
Sarah shares valuable lessons learned through leading this culture change.
Recorded September 2021.
Guest Biography
Sarah Vibert is the Interim Chief Executive of NCVO. Sarah stepped up to the role in January 2021, having previously been NCVO’s Director of Membership and Engagement.
Prior to joining NCVO, Sarah was Chief Executive of the umbrella charity, The Neurological Alliance. She has also served in senior management roles at Epilepsy Society and In Kind Direct, having started her career in local government management, including working for The Mayor of London.
Sarah is a Trustee of The Brain and Spine Foundation and volunteers for her son’s school PTA.
Links https://www.ncvo.org.uk/
This episode is sponsored by EdenTree Investment Management
https://www.edentreeim.com/
Culture change is not a linear process… real culture change takes a long time… trust and healing is the very beginning of that sort of conversation.”
Sarah Vibert is the Interim CEO of NCVO, the National Council for Voluntary Organisations.
NCVO is a membership body that champions charities and volunteers. Its focus is supporting its member organisations and enabling their efforts to make the world a better place.
In the current context, NCVO is playing a key role in re-imagining the voluntary sector, collaborating with other infrastructure bodies and influencing government. NCVO is a founding member of The Civil Society Group, an informal group which aims at improving collaboration within the sector and streamlining engagement with government.
In February 2021, a leaked EDI Report revealed systemic issues around bullying, harassment and racism at NCVO. Having just stepped up to the CEO role the month before, Sarah talks about the journey she has taken her team and the organisation on, and the difficult process of rebuilding trust.
Sarah shares valuable lessons learned through leading this culture change.
Recorded September 2021.
Guest Biography
Sarah Vibert is the Interim Chief Executive of NCVO. Sarah stepped up to the role in January 2021, having previously been NCVO’s Director of Membership and Engagement.
Prior to joining NCVO, Sarah was Chief Executive of the umbrella charity, The Neurological Alliance. She has also served in senior management roles at Epilepsy Society and In Kind Direct, having started her career in local government management, including working for The Mayor of London.
Sarah is a Trustee of The Brain and Spine Foundation and volunteers for her son’s school PTA.
Links https://www.ncvo.org.uk/
This episode is sponsored by EdenTree Investment Management
https://www.edentreeim.com/
Recommended
Transcript
The Ongoing Journey of Culture Change
00:00:00
Speaker
Culture change is not these big set piece things. It's like the millions of little interactions on a daily basis and how you show up as a leader, how you make decisions, how are we sharing openly about challenges the organization's facing. And so that's been a really important area for me in terms of how we're modeling that across the organization.
00:00:19
Speaker
I mean I think the other thing is to say I don't think there is an end point to culture change. Clearly we've got some things we need to do as priorities but I mean I guess where I want to get the organisation to is a place where staff feel proud to work at NCVO again and I don't know how long that will take but I'm very determined to get us there.
Introduction to the Charity CEO Podcast
00:00:45
Speaker
This is season three of the Charity CEO podcast, the podcast for charity leaders by charity leaders. I'm Livio Connor, and I never imagined that this show that I started as an experiment during the pandemic would turn into a number one ranked global podcast with thousands of listeners all across the world.
00:01:03
Speaker
it is truly humbling to know that the show's content is valued by so many. And, thanks to our Season 3 sponsor, Eden Tree, I will continue to bring you inspirational and engaging conversations with a host of leaders who are all truly driving change in the non-profit space.
00:01:19
Speaker
Eden Tree themselves are owned by a charity and have led the way in responsible and sustainable investing for over three decades. Thank you to Eden Tree. Now, on with the show.
NCVO's Century-Long Support for Members
00:01:30
Speaker
My guest today is Sarah Weibert, the interim chief executive of NCVO. NCVO, or the National Council for Voluntary Organizations, is a membership body that champions charities and volunteers.
00:01:43
Speaker
With nearly 17,000 members, NCVO's focus throughout its 100-year history has been on supporting its member organisations and enabling their efforts to make the world a better place. In today's context, NCVO is playing a key role in reimagining the sector, collaborating with other infrastructure bodies and influencing government.
00:02:04
Speaker
Sarah
Addressing Systemic Issues at NCVO
00:02:05
Speaker
talks candidly about the EDI report leaked earlier this year that revealed systemic issues around bullying, harassment and racism within the organisation and the journey towards healing and rebuilding trust that she and her whole team have been on. Culture change is not easy. Sarah shares some valuable learnings gained through leading this much needed culture change and how holding the values of openness, transparency and compassion
00:02:32
Speaker
have helped make her a better leader and make NCVO a more inclusive organization. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Hi, Sarah. Welcome to the show. I'm so pleased to have you on as a guest.
00:02:46
Speaker
Hi, Divya. I've been really looking forward to this. Thank you so much for having me on. Oh, brilliant. And we always start the show with an ice break around. So I have five questions for you. And if you're ready,
Sarah Weibert's Personal Motivation and Challenges
00:02:57
Speaker
we can get started. Sure. Question one, as a child, what did you dream of being when you grew up?
00:03:03
Speaker
So having talked to other charity leaders, I think I'm a bit unusual in that I actually always wanted to run a charity from quite a young age actually. I grew up with a disabled brother and having talked to other people who have disabled siblings, I think my experience is probably quite similar in that it gave me
00:03:24
Speaker
kind of such a sense of social justice at a very early age, seeing the barriers to education, to health and social care, how much my parents had to fight for all of that for him. And also the kind of everyday discrimination in terms of name calling, reactions from people in shops or restaurants. And we also had a lot of support from charities as a family. So whether that was respite care for my brother and as a teenager, I was involved in volunteering for a support group for people who had disabled siblings.
00:03:53
Speaker
And I think the other thing is there's not an obvious route into the sector, or at least there wasn't kind of 20 years ago. And I remember going to the career centre at university and saying I wanted to work in a charity and them being a little bit stumped as to where to send me. So yeah, I've always wanted to run a charity. Wow, that's such a lovely story. I love it. Question two, what would you say is your professional superpower?
Balancing Optimism and Reality in Charity Work
00:04:15
Speaker
Oh, this is a hard one. I think I'd have to say probably optimism. I think to run a charity and to be involved in the sector, I mean, charities trade on hope, don't they? And hope for a better future. And that's certainly something that I bring with me into every day at work is a real sense of optimism. And I know that my team would certainly say I'm very optimistic and energetic in the approach that I bring to work.
00:04:42
Speaker
But also I'd say over the last year I've perhaps realised the importance of being able to sit with unhappiness as well and upset both personally and at work and not always trying to be the one who lifts a mood or to keep a pretense of positivity but overall yes I'd say optimism.
00:05:00
Speaker
Brilliant. I absolutely agree that optimism and hope are excellent superpowers to have as a charity chief executive. So our next question is what is something that you could not have survived the pandemic in the past 18 months without?
00:05:15
Speaker
I'd say two things, two main things. Firstly, my family. There were definitely times during the pandemic when I kind of just wanted to be on my own and away from them when I was trying to homeschool the children. My husband and my children were a little unit in our kind of lockdown home, the pandemic, and I definitely couldn't have done it without them.
00:05:34
Speaker
The second thing though, and this is related, is my bike. I am a very keen cyclist and being able to just cycle off on almost empty roads which due to lockdown and just get away from everything and be in peace and have time to think. So my family and my bike.
00:05:53
Speaker
Lots of people would agree with those in terms of time with family and time to just get out and exercise. I remember the very first evening in lockdown that I took my dog out for a walk and the streets were completely deserted. It was about 10 o'clock at night and I felt like I'd been transported to somewhere completely different. It was brilliant. Question four, if you were a Spice Girl, which one would you be and why?
00:06:19
Speaker
So I think I would probably have to be sporty spice. Probably not quite as sporty these days, but there was definitely a time in my life when I spent pretty much all day either on the hockey pitch or out training for a marathon or something like that. So yes, I'll go with sporty spice.
00:06:37
Speaker
Brilliant. And the final icebreaker question, one that I think you know is coming, if you had the opportunity to interview anyone in the world dead or alive, who would it be and what one question would you like to ask them?
00:06:50
Speaker
I would love to talk to Jacinda Ardern because I think earlier on in my career I certainly struggled with the sort of leadership that was perhaps prominent then and probably still is in lots of places today. You know the sort of leadership that really focuses on the task at the expense of people, the sort of leadership where people are not encouraged to bring their whole selves to work and I think it took me quite a long time to work out
00:07:15
Speaker
what sort of leader I wanted to be because I spent quite a lot of time trying to be something different to what I am. So in terms of Jacinda Ardern, I just find her kind of kindness and empathy so inspiring and yeah, I don't know what I'd ask her. I'd just love to talk to her about being a leader and a mother, about how she's managed at times of crisis, things like the Christchurch shootings, obviously the pandemic. So yes, that's who I'd love to interview.
00:07:40
Speaker
Yeah, she's such an inspiration and icon, isn't she? And so coming now to our main discussion, Sarah, you are the interim chief executive of NCVO, the National Council for Voluntary Organizations, and you have been in post since the beginning of this year. And I'd like to start off by talking about what NCVO does. So can you tell us about the organization's vision and mission?
00:08:04
Speaker
Yeah, sure. So NCVO, put simply, champions charities and volunteers. So it's all about supporting really compassionate people right across the country who are making a difference, making a really collective impact on people and communities.
00:08:20
Speaker
And NCVO is very much founded on the premise that charities and volunteers have an essential role in society in all sorts of different ways, so creating stronger communities, providing vital services, campaigning, and doing things that provide joy to people such as open spaces, theatre, arts.
00:08:38
Speaker
We're a membership organisation and membership is very much at the heart of everything that we do. So we're the largest network of charities and volunteering. In England, we've got almost 17,000 members now, and we also provide support to the wider sector. Our members range from the very big, for example, medical research charities to local amateur sports clubs. They've all got one thing in common, which is around making the world around them a better place. While we operate in England, we also work with sister councils across Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
00:09:08
Speaker
Sarah, what role do you think a modern infrastructure and membership organization like NCVO has to play in the current context? That's a brilliant question. It's a question that NCVO started asking itself, I think, back in 2019. It was very clear, that's before I joined the organization, but I think it's very clear at that point that NCVO did need to change. We've reinvented ourselves lots of times throughout our 100-year history responding to changes in society.
00:09:37
Speaker
So we started this review of our strategy, listening to members in the wider sector back in 2019. But of course, lots of stuff has changed since then in terms of the pandemic. We also had a big loss of income like the rest of the sector. Other external events too, such as the global anti-racism protests following George Floyd's death. All of these things have had such a profound impact on our sector. And so MTVO's really had to reinvent itself and reimagine itself in terms of the new context that we find ourselves in.
00:10:06
Speaker
what we have now got is a strategy which is very much about living four values. And I think these speak to what we need a modern infrastructure body to be. So firstly, collaborative. So it's not about NCVO leading the sector on our own. It's about working with everyone who wants charities and volunteering to thrive. So of course, that includes our members, but also working with other infrastructure bodies, working in partnership with
00:10:30
Speaker
government, working in partnership with companies. As I say, working with everybody who wants to get behind charities and volunteering and their work. We're doing loads of collaborative projects right now from the vision for volunteering that we're doing, volunteering matters and others, straight, flexible working, delivering e-learning with the FSI. So yeah, I think that's really important.
00:10:51
Speaker
Secondly, I think we've got a value around being open and I think that's really important too. It's not about an infrastructure body doing lots of things behind closed doors, but very much about working in the open, sharing the things that we as an organization are learning and being a learning and responsive organization. I think that's particularly important in terms of the work that we're doing on diversity and inclusion.
00:11:13
Speaker
The third thing is around being inclusive. We'll probably come on to talk a lot more about this, but really ensuring that we're inclusive of all voices, putting members at the heart of what we do. Certainly, my observation coming into NCVO at the start of 2020 was that we were quite like a think tank and we're not a think tank, we're a membership body. Really putting members front and center of what we're doing and ensuring that our membership is also about the whole sector, so not just hearing from the same voices.
00:11:41
Speaker
And then the final value is really around ambitious and not ambitious for NCVO as an organisation, but ambitious for our members, ambitious for charities and volunteering. And I think that's particularly important coming out of the pandemic that we have that ambition for the sector and for the future.
00:11:55
Speaker
Absolutely agree with you on that. And talking about working with other infrastructure bodies, as listeners will know, I have also recently been in an interim chief executive role with an infrastructure organization until October this year. I was the interim CEO at the Chartered Institute of Fundraising, and Sarah and I, along with a number of other sector colleagues, have been working together
00:12:17
Speaker
as part of a infrastructure collaboration. And Sarah, I know that you have been much more heavily involved than I was in terms of the setup of that collaboration.
Collaborative Efforts During and After the Pandemic
00:12:28
Speaker
So perhaps you can elaborate on its purpose and what do you really hope the collaboration will achieve?
00:12:34
Speaker
At the start of the pandemic, the charity infrastructure bodies came together, the civil society infrastructure bodies came together in a way that I don't think we'd ever done before. And it was very much based on a belief that we knew that the voluntary organisations that we all supported have had a huge part to play in helping society through the pandemic.
00:12:55
Speaker
And so when we came together, it was very much around a kind of meeting of minds, sharing opinions, very quickly became a place of safety to network, asked chief executive infrastructure bodies to share views, and of course, to influence the government in relation to support so that voluntary organizations were able to continue to deliver their services
00:13:20
Speaker
to people in communities, and in many cases to step up and to be able to do a lot more in the face of much increased demand. So that's kind of where it all started. And yeah, so now we're kind of 18 months on from that. And we're very much, I think like a lot of collaborative endeavors in the sector, looking at how can we keep the best of this, because actually there's been some huge benefits of working in this way. And so we're very much looking to build on that partnership post pandemic.
00:13:45
Speaker
and think quite strategically actually around a framework for our future activities. So where we've got to with that is that we've all got this common purpose around building a fairer, more sustainable, more connected society. We're putting together a plan around how we can really harness our kind of strengths, particularly around influencing government, as well as building those relationships across the sector.
00:14:08
Speaker
I'm absolutely convinced that particularly in relation to influencing government working collaboratively is really important and it's what our members have been telling us for such a long time that they want us to do. So yeah I think in terms of our influencing work it's really important to have that collective message.
00:14:23
Speaker
but also the shared resources. I mean, I think it's incredible. If you think about the CBI, so that's the Confederation of British Industry who lobby on behalf of the private sector, their policy team is bigger than the combined policy departments of all the national infrastructure bodies. So there's got to be sense in coming together and pulling resources when we're wanting to influence on behalf of the sector.
00:14:44
Speaker
And on your point about influencing government and really creating a framework for future work and activities, I'd like to delve a bit deeper into what more we as a sector want to see from government. So as we are recording this podcast at the moment, at the end of September, it's been over two weeks since the cabinet reshuffle was first announced and we still don't have a new charities minister. What do you think that says about this government's attitude towards the sector?
00:15:12
Speaker
That's a really good question. And I think the beginning of the answer is probably actually in the pandemic and how we worked with government during the pandemic. I know a lot of commentators have criticized the £750 million funding that the government gave the sector in terms of being a bit too slow, perhaps not enough, and criticized the campaigning by infrastructure. But I actually think that that £750 million funding is a real, really significant achievement of the infrastructure community.
00:15:41
Speaker
and it was far from a done deal without the campaigning. But I think there's a lot of work, a lot of things that we also learned from that. So as well as being an achievement, there's a lot of lessons to learn about our relationship with government as infrastructure. I mean, the sector's got a really complex combined relationship with the government and some parts of the voluntary sector have a really excellent relationship with central government. And that's often a combination of
00:16:03
Speaker
the politics of the day, the interests of the particular government, and of course, effective influencing. But I do think the relationship between the government infrastructure is different. And for a start, I think that's because we're more of an intermediary. And so though our message is focusing on the impact on people and communities, I think the message is harder to land. And it's definitely been a huge test has been the pandemic. And I think we've seen in particular, we probably didn't have the strength of relationships that we thought we did.
00:16:29
Speaker
But equally, I think we've seen that government perhaps didn't understand our sector as much as they thought they did, and certainly the performer's secretary of state said that in a speech last year. So the other challenge, of course, that we've got is that some of the governments were and actively remain against some of the work that charities are doing, and certainly when
00:16:48
Speaker
The compact was set up at the turn of the century. The bargain then was around charities being able to take on a share of public service delivery, to work in partnership with government, but to be able to do that while retaining the ability to critique and to be able to campaign on issues.
00:17:04
Speaker
At the time of recording, it was only this month that we've seen the former Culture Secretary suggesting that the Future Charity Commission should be harnessing the oversight powers of the Commission and shifting charities away from working on certain issues. And so that's obviously a real challenge. So I think, you know, all these things that I'm kind of talking about really get to the heart of some of the tensions with working with government. And that's not necessarily about this particular government. That's about working with any government. But there certainly have been challenges in recent times.
00:17:32
Speaker
Well, I'm really pleased to see the progress that the civil society infrastructure collaboration has made and is continuing to make in terms of influencing government. And I'm pleased to have been a small part of that effort as well. And as you said, Sarah, of course, that is what people expect from an organization like NCVO.
00:17:50
Speaker
I'd like to trace back now and talk a bit about the challenges that NCVO faced at the beginning of this year, right at the start of your CEO tenure to do with the EDI report, which reveals significant issues around bullying and harassment and institutional racism at NCVO. And you have just this week published a report on the outcomes of investigations into several complaints relating to this. And the question I would like to start with is,
00:18:19
Speaker
Do you wish you had released the EDI report yourselves rather than it being leaked to the press and coming out the way that it did?
00:18:26
Speaker
So I think to start off to answer that question by highlighting that the report was actually never intended to be a public document. The group of staff who led the EDI work decided that very early on so that it would be an internal report and that it would be used as a basis for understanding where we were and so that we as an organisation could develop an action plan. But we did very early on, as the group of staff working on the report,
00:18:53
Speaker
decide that we were very committed to being transparent about the work. And I was actually the director responsible for communications last summer, which is when we talked about the EDI work publicly for the first time. And I think actually our EDI work has completely changed our approach to communications. And we've had this really fundamental shift in terms of our openness and our transparency. And that goes back to the values I was talking about earlier in terms of the organisation and how we really live those values.
00:19:18
Speaker
And as a comms professional last year, that was really about unlearning an awful lot of what I thought I knew. So rather than trying to control a message.
00:19:28
Speaker
It was ensuring that comms started from accepting where we are, which in our case meant authentically talking about failures and not trying to paint a more favorable picture and put on a PR spin, which is the tendency that you perhaps have as an organization. But of course we've had to walk really fine line between being open or authentic, but without sharing confidential information relating to individuals.
00:19:50
Speaker
I really can see how if you have been bullied or if you've experienced discrimination in an organisation, why you want the perpetrators to be named in public, why you want to see some real accountability. But I guess there's only so much that you can share publicly as an organisation without putting the organisation at legal risk.
00:20:08
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, in terms of the report being leaked, I actually think whether I wish we'd shared it, I actually think now it has been leaked. It's had a huge impact on the sector, actually. I mean, at the time, it was really traumatic for the NCVA staff. There were private experiences and they didn't want them to be shared with the whole sector. And from a personal point of view, as the new interim chief exec, the relentless media attention really takes its toll on you. But looking back now, I think it's had a really positive impact.
00:20:36
Speaker
It's got the sector really engaged in a proper conversation about diversity and inclusion. I've had countless chief executives get in touch with me to talk about, where do we start? What do we do? And I don't necessarily have all the answers, but it's definitely had an impact in terms of shifting the dial on this agenda. And for interview ourselves, it's definitely pushed us to go further and to go faster. And we're definitely being a lot more accountable because we're clearly now doing the work a lot more in the spotlight than we ever intended.
00:21:04
Speaker
I'm really intrigued Sarah by your comment earlier about how as a comms professional, you had to actually unlearn what you thought you knew. And as you said rightly, the EDI report actually was a real catalyst for a conversation across the sector. And it led to the not just in CBO movement, which really speaks to the extent of this problem across the sector. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how big a problem you think this is across the sector and how you think it actually can be addressed.
00:21:33
Speaker
As I've said before in various blogs and other forums, this is about structural issues in society and it's about structural issues in the sector. It's got a particular focus in the sector because the sector is about social justice.
00:21:49
Speaker
And so there's perhaps even more of a kind of urgency on the sector to get this right. So I don't doubt that diversity and inclusion is a problem right across the sector. I think some organizations are much further along in terms of tackling it than others. Some organizations are doing some incredible work in this area.
00:22:05
Speaker
Others probably haven't started yet or don't know where to start. When chief execs say to me, where do we start? I mean, I think one thing that NCVO found really beneficial was working with an external consultant because that can really hold the mirror up to you as an organization. That's been hugely important.
00:22:23
Speaker
And also, I think there's something also really important about that openness and transparency. And this will not be addressed by organisations doing things behind closed doors and trying to hide mistakes in the past. I think actually the openness, the sharing, the learning, it's all part of the journey. And I think there's something really, really important about that.
00:22:45
Speaker
Yes, I absolutely agree that openness and transparency is really key to changing things. And I note that your blog and the report that was published is really in that spirit of wanting to be open and transparent. And you refer to the work being done at NCVO in your blog as a culture change roadmap. So I wanted to ask how far along that cultural change roadmap do you feel you now are at NCVO and what more needs to be done?
Long-term EDI Goals at NCVO
00:23:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really good time to ask that question, actually, because it feels like we've just gone through quite another, I don't want to use the word milestone, but certainly this week, the time of recording, we've just shared the findings from our investigations, which came out of an inquiry that we did following our EDI report. We've also just had our first All Staff Away Day, which was very much focused around building trust and healing in the organisation. And what these things have shown me is that culture change is not a linear process.
00:23:40
Speaker
I think they've really highlighted how much staff are all in different places. There are still some staff who remain very hurt and there's still a lot of work to do to build trust. At the other end there's staff who really want to move on and they don't want to talk about the past anymore and I think one of the things that I've tried to say to staff this week is these are all really valid and important viewpoints
00:24:01
Speaker
So I think it's slow and I think there's a lot of frustration at how slow change is. But I do think real culture change takes a long time. We've come some way. There's been some important short term actions that were highlighted in our EDI report as priorities. But then there's the sort of deeper, longer term actions which we're working towards.
00:24:21
Speaker
So just to give an example, we've just put in place a new whistleblower service and updating our policies and procedures. And they're really important things to do and really important things to get right. But actually what we want to do is develop a culture where speaking up is something that we all view as an organization as an opportunity to learn and develop.
00:24:40
Speaker
And that's not just about updating a policy. That's about how we relate to each other. It's about how decisions are made. It's about how it feels to work in the organization. And so, I mean, in some ways, the trust and healing is the very beginning of that sort of conversation. There's a lot more work to do in terms of learning and trying to get to a place where we really kind of celebrate differences in the organization.
00:25:01
Speaker
I think the leadership team is another really important area in which we have started to do a lot of development, but there's lots more to do. So it's been a real priority for me. It's been kind of developing our leadership practice, really, really getting the team focused in on how we're living our values. Culture change is not these big set piece things. It's like the millions of
00:25:23
Speaker
little interactions on a daily basis and how you show up as a leader, how you make decisions, how are we sharing openly about challenges the organization's facing. And so that's been a really important area for me in terms of how we're modeling that across the organization. I mean, I think the other thing is to say, I don't think there is an end point to culture change. Clearly we've got some things we need to do as priorities, but I mean, I guess where I want to get the organization to is a place where staff feel proud to work at NCVO again. And I don't know how long that will take.
00:25:52
Speaker
but I'm very determined to get us there.
00:25:54
Speaker
One of my previous guests said with respect to culture change that the culture is really set by not just the positive behaviours that the CEO models but also the worst behaviours that the CEO is prepared to tolerate. So actually really tackling some of those thorny issues is going to drive that change across the organisation. And so clearly you're making great progress there and certainly I suspect the past year has been quite a challenge and indeed there are
00:26:23
Speaker
challenges still ahead. So, and thinking back Sarah on the past year, can you share some of the lessons that you have learnt along the way and also looking back, what do you think that you might have done differently? Wow. So, I mean, I think in terms of the EDI work specifically, I mean, that has been such a huge learning journey for me. When I joined NCVO in 2020, I joined the EDI steering group
00:26:50
Speaker
And in lots of ways, that was such a privilege to be on that group and to work alongside people who were leading the work at NCVO. It's just taught me so much around how you should center the lived experience of people in EDI work, but also how you give them the support and resources to do that and how you recognize the emotional labor that's involved in that. And I think all of these lessons that I've learned are probably things that I've not got right all the way through in terms of kind of getting that balance right.
00:27:20
Speaker
I think the other thing is around really quite deep reflection and learning as an individual. So reading, listening to podcasts, following things like the Black Lives Matter movement, but also kind of really taking time to kind of reflect and reflect on what my practice is as a leader. And again, no one's going to say thank you and no one's going to make you feel less guilty. And that is quite uncomfortable actually. But coming back to the bigger picture and
00:27:45
Speaker
what the burden is on colleagues who do have lived experience of discrimination and how to support and promote their well-being. And as we are all looking to come out of the pandemic, do you have any advice for fellow voluntary sector leaders on how we can move forward and rebuild a better future for our organisations and the communities that we serve?
00:28:06
Speaker
I mean, I think the thing that struck me, and it kind of goes back to my answer about Jacinda Ardern, I think there's just something so important at the moment about compassionate leadership. I think the sector really needs compassionate leaders, leaders who will work in the open, leaders who will encourage the whole organization to bring the whole selves to work, to be vulnerable, but to guess to balance that with the right level of ambition and vision for the future and going back to what I was saying earlier about having hope and optimism.
00:28:36
Speaker
I think it's a really, really hard time to be a charity chief executive and certainly experience that being thrown in at the deep end earlier this year as interim chief executive and CVA. But I think as leaders, we need to really hang on to that vision and optimism for the future.
00:28:51
Speaker
Yes, and talking about compassionate leadership and bringing your whole self to work, I think this might be a nice segue to talking about the new flexible working group. I recently heard you, Sarah and Becky Hewitt and Akiko Hart on the third sector podcast talking about the flexible working group. So tell us about that and what you're looking to achieve with it.
00:29:12
Speaker
Oh, so I'm really excited about this piece of work, not least because we're working with Akiva on it. And so, yeah, another kind of example of working collaboratively. So it came about on the back of Becky Hewitt writing an article in third sector about just how challenging she'd found being a chief of sector in the pandemic and I guess getting the balance right in terms of flexible working. And it spoke so much to me and to my experience. And then I suddenly sort of had this realization
00:29:39
Speaker
This is something NCVO could really start a conversation about and really try and again, shift the dial on in terms of the wider sector. I do think we have a culture of overworking in the sector. And part of that is because people care so much and there's something really important that we need to address there. And it's not a new problem. It existed before the pandemic for lots of people, for lots of reasons. But I think the pandemic has given us that wake up call. So what am I hoping to achieve? I am hoping if all it does is start a conversation
00:30:09
Speaker
and hopefully make individuals find it easier to have conversations about flexible working, then I think we'll have achieved something. But we've been a bit overwhelmed, really, by the reaction we've had and the number of people who've wanted to get involved in the working group and focus groups. So it feels like we've really hit on something that's really important right now. So I'm optimistic and probably over ambitious about what we can achieve. I'd really like to see this not just be a conversation, but actually really start to kind of shift the culture in the sector.
00:30:38
Speaker
I'm really excited to see what comes out of this. I think it's something as a mother myself with two children, something that's really important and actually needs to be talked about a lot more. And if I hadn't been just about to start a new chief executive role with United's World Schools, I would have probably put myself forward as well, but I'm sure you've got some brilliant people engaged already. So yes, I look forward to watching that space.
00:31:01
Speaker
And talking about leadership now, Sarah, I'd love to hear more about your own background in career journey and how have you gotten to where you are today? So, I mean, as I said earlier, I always wanted to work in the charity sector and there wasn't really an obvious route in then. I think there are more obvious routes into the sector now. So, my first job was actually as an admin assistant at WizKids and I had two bosses. I was working across two teams and they were
00:31:25
Speaker
absolutely brilliant bosses, really inspired me, really encouraged me. I was only there for a year on a year contract, but it absolutely cemented what I wanted to do. And I guess since then, I've worked in a number of charities across a number of different areas. I think the common theme has probably been collaboration. Quite early on in my career, I got the opportunity to move into a leadership, senior leadership role in Kind Direct.
00:31:50
Speaker
which is a product giving charity, and then from there moved on to work at Epilepsy Society in the neurological space. I've spent the last sort of 10, 15 years in senior leadership roles. My last job was actually as the chief executive of a small charity before I came to NCVA and the neurological alliance. That gave me a real flavour, I guess, for kind of working in membership bodies, which is what led me to come to NCVA.
00:32:15
Speaker
And looking back at your leadership journey, what advice would you give to yourself on day one of becoming a CEO? Oh, wow. Well, I've not been a chief executive for very long. You have a lot of guests on your show who have really experienced chief executives. But certainly going back to when I joined the neurological alliance as chief executive, I think the main thing I would say, you know, we were a very small charity, only a few staff. And so I think the advice I'd give myself is to perhaps be more realistic.
00:32:41
Speaker
I think I have learned the hard way that you need to ensure that your level of ambition matches your resources as an organisation and I'm the sort of person who will come up with loads of ideas, think very strategically about things and so many charities try to do too much and I think that's
00:32:59
Speaker
sort of linking to the flexible working and people overworking because you're in a cause-led organization. And so, yeah, looking back, I think I regret not setting fewer priorities, both for me and the sake of the team, but also I think you can probably have more impact if you really focus down on what you're really good at. That's definitely what I would change if I could go back to the start of the neurological alliance.
00:33:20
Speaker
That's such sound advice in terms of just being more realistic and ensuring that the level of ambition really matches the resources that an organization has. And I absolutely agree with you actually having that real clarity of vision and purpose can help you achieve more. And Sarah, you and I certainly both know that whilst being incredibly rewarding, sometimes being a charity chief executive is also hugely challenging and stressful. So clarity of vision and purpose is absolutely essential there.
00:33:49
Speaker
And also, in that context, tell us what motivates and drives you every day. Working with people, actually, I really love working with the people that I work with. And I think I've been really fortunate in my career to be part of some absolutely brilliant teams and to work on some really brilliant projects. And my current role is no different. The leadership team I've got around me, the wider staff team we've got.
00:34:11
Speaker
And I'm really interested actually in team dynamics and diversity in teams. You know, I love it when we all come together and the different perspectives that we'll bring and how we'll build on each other's ideas. So I think that's the thing that gets me up in the morning. And certainly when I was asked to be the interim chief exec at NCVO by the trustees, and I had a kind of week under say to think about it and decide
00:34:36
Speaker
And, you know, it really was quite a big decision. And what made me say yes was the people at NCVO and the fact that I really felt that, you know, we'd been through enough change and that actually I could be a bit of continuity and work alongside them. So, yeah, that's definitely what kind of inspires me.
00:34:55
Speaker
Well, Sarah, it's been such fun chatting with you. I always end the podcast by asking whether you have any final thoughts or reflections that you would like to share. I mean, what is one thing that you would like listeners to take away from this conversation? I think I would probably say the importance of making connections in the sector. That perhaps sounds like a bit of an NCVO corporate answer, and I guess in some ways it kind of is. You know, it's one of our core purposes and it's like something that I really strongly believe in. But like as individual leaders,
00:35:24
Speaker
Having a network of support from other CEOs is just so important for your own well-being. I regularly chair meetings of chief execs, which is another amazing part of this job actually. Every time someone will say, I'm just so glad it's not just me and we're all experiencing the same thing. There's something really important on that for well-being, but also if we're coming together and sharing like that, we're going to be putting the cause of the issue above the brand. There's so much more that we're going to achieve.
00:35:52
Speaker
Over the last year, I've had incredible support from some of the chief execs. You included Divya. My pleasure. It's been so valuable. Whether it's learning about how we can build a more inclusive sector, which I know we've spoken about, or how we've got a consistent message to government, I think working together is going to get us a lot further.
00:36:10
Speaker
I completely agree with you. The support of other leaders in the sector is invaluable and long may it continue. And thank you so much, Sarah. That's been such an insightful conversation. Thank you so much for being a guest on the show.
00:36:28
Speaker
Let's face it, being a charity chief executive is a tough gig. Creating a support network of other leaders in the sector is absolutely vital to being able to work through challenges on an individual level and to enable our organisations to flourish.
00:36:44
Speaker
Speaking with Sarah Weiber, Chief Executive of NCVO, has reminded me that at the end of the day it's about people. The people we work with, the people we build relationships with, the people and the communities we serve. And once the road to a better tomorrow is not linear, we all strive in the hope that our collective vision for a brighter future and a more just and more equal world can perhaps one day become a reality.
00:37:10
Speaker
And as we are approaching Christmas and the holiday season, we are going to be taking a short mid-season break and will return with the rest of season 3 in January. So, to everyone out there, stay safe, happy holidays and see you in the new year!
00:37:27
Speaker
I hope you enjoyed this latest episode of the Charity CEO podcast. A show that, thanks to you, our listeners, has repeatedly reached the number one spot in Apple's non-profit podcast category. If you found this conversation valuable, please help spread the word. Share or tag us on Twitter or LinkedIn or Instagram, and make sure you subscribe to the show by clicking the subscribe button on your podcast app.
00:37:49
Speaker
And if you're feeling inspired or uplifted by what you have just heard, please share the joy by leaving us a five-star review. Visit our website, thecharityceo.com, for full show details, information on past season guests, and to submit ideas for future guests. Thanks again to our Season 3 sponsor, Eden Tree, and thank you for continuing to listen.