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36. Simulation Theory and Understanding Reality
75 Plays2 years ago
In this week’s episode, we discuss the simulation theory and how we relate to its implications. You’ll hear us express our issues with it, as well as attempt to steel man the argument for a simulation. Our views on it definitely relate back our philosophical and spiritual beliefs, and we lay some of that out in response to simulation theory and understanding reality in general. Were starting to add some extras for Patreon patrons like early access to episodes. More is on the way.
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Music By Nathan Willis RIP
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Support
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pursuit of Infinity. In this week's episode we discuss the simulation theory and how we relate to its implications. You'll hear us express our issues with it as well as attempt to steelman the argument for a simulation. Our views on it definitely relate back to our philosophical and spiritual beliefs and we lay some of that out in response to simulation theory
00:00:22
Speaker
and to just understanding reality in general. But before we get to it, if you like what we do and you want to support the show, we really appreciate a follow or a sub as well as a five star rating and maybe even some kind words of encouragement in the form of a review. These things really help us to expand our reach and credibility, which is so much appreciated. And if you're feeling exceptionally magnanimous, you can become a patron.
00:00:46
Speaker
at patreon.com slash pursuit of infinity where you can donate as little as two dollars a month to support what we do we're starting to add some extras for patreon patrons like early access to episodes and other things and more is on the way
00:01:01
Speaker
Check us out on YouTube channel is up. All of our episodes are there. So if you prefer some visuals and to put some faces to the names, subscribe and keep up with us. We're also on Instagram at pursuit of infinity pod. So give us a follow and reach out because we would love to hear from you.
What is Simulation Theory?
00:01:16
Speaker
And without further delay, thank you so much for listening and I hope you enjoy this week's discussion.
00:01:45
Speaker
Alright, so I wanted to talk about simulation theory a
Skepticism and Socio-Economic Influence on Beliefs
00:01:50
Speaker
bit. I have my qualms with it. So for those who don't know, simulation theory is
00:01:58
Speaker
Basically the idea that we are living in a simulation, that this reality is a simulated reality. The reason behind that is, you know, people see that we as human beings are creating simulations today and they're becoming more and more lifelike. So people extrapolate from that and say that it only makes sense that we already had made a simulation and that's what we're in right now.
00:02:27
Speaker
I think the weird part about the whole simulation theory is that it's almost like the fact that you can think of simulation theory as being real almost means that it has to be real because it's like the conception of a simulation almost means that we have to be
00:02:49
Speaker
housed within a simulation of our own, because if you extrapolate the technology of like what we're already doing, like you said, it seems that probabilistically, if you use like a mathematical model, it would seem that we have to be in a simulation.
00:03:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's like a big argument that's made thinking that supposedly, it is thought that the probability has to be there that we're it's like a dramatic probability that this is a simulation. And I find it funny that supposedly, more
00:03:29
Speaker
more like rich people, like, you know, Elon Musk is a big proponent of simulation theory. A lot of rich people and people that live extravagant lives are more prone to believe in simulation theory, which is funny because, you know, they would believe that their life could be a simulation. Like you don't probably see a homeless person with a miserable life thinking his life is a simulation. Like who would want the simulation, but rich people like Elon Musk that look around like,
00:03:59
Speaker
This is crazy. A lot of them are prone to simulation theory, which I thought was pretty crazy. Makes sense though.
00:04:07
Speaker
I think a lot of people who are more well off, whether it be financially or just, you know, within their lives have more capacity to think about these kinds of things and to think about even spirituality and spiritual thought and asking what is reality? Where did the universe come from? What are we? So I think that relates as well, like just not having to, uh, go through the daily struggle of strictly surviving and making sure your family can eat.
00:04:37
Speaker
I think that stands in the way a lot of times of people having these existential thoughts. Yeah, I agree.
Spiritual Awakenings Across Socio-Economic Backgrounds
00:04:44
Speaker
It's funny because it's usually even the two extremes. Either you are off well enough to think about these things and really go deep into spirituality or just the nature of reality itself, or you're so low and beaten down to your all-time low
00:05:06
Speaker
where you're confronted with like a spiritual breakthrough or something. Like some people will have the spiritual breakthrough by going through something very difficult. So it could be either end I'd say. Yeah, that's actually a really good point.
Action vs. Stagnation: A Biblical Perspective
00:05:20
Speaker
And a lot of people who have spontaneous spiritual awakenings that are on set by nothing in particular are people who are in that situation. And it makes sense because even like in the Bible it says like basically
00:05:34
Speaker
I don't know the exact quote, but it basically says doing nothing is worse than doing something bad. So like do good, but if you do bad, it's better than not doing anything at all. It's just kind of, it's the advice of not staying stagnant and doing nothing at all, basically.
Arguments Against Simulation Theory
00:05:54
Speaker
So it makes sense that on either end of the spectrum is where you're confronted with a spiritual awakening or something of that nature. But as far as simulation theory, I have my beefs with it. I don't think we're in a simulation. What do you think about it? I don't think we are either.
00:06:18
Speaker
And one of the main reasons that I don't think we are, and it's something that I sort of base like a lot of my foundational beliefs on is that it's too human. It's too much of a, an anthropomorphized concept.
00:06:35
Speaker
Um, and I believe that the ultimate nature of reality is so quote unquote alien, not Martian alien, but like so different from what we conceive as a human perceptive reality or a human perceived reality. That it can't fit into any of the models that we can create based off of what we already do now in this world.
Simulation Theory as Cultural Reflection
00:07:01
Speaker
Yeah. And I totally agree with that. And on top of that.
00:07:06
Speaker
It's like the ethos of the times too, like we're in the technological age, the computer age. So it's such just a reflection of our state and humanity. And reality is far beyond just humanity. Like back, you know, forever, they thought the earth floats in space because it's on an elephant's back and the elephant's on back of
00:07:29
Speaker
turtles back and then it's turtles forever, you know, turtles all the way down. I love it. But the thing is, it's always reflective of the times what people believe. So it only makes sense that simulation theory is, is, you know, popular in today's time. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you see that we are working toward more and more advanced simulations
00:07:57
Speaker
uh, in terms of what humans are capable of creating. So again, like you said, uh, off the jump, if you extrapolate that idea and you just strictly stick to the same like ideological foundation and also the same technological foundation, and those two things just grow up together and with on like on the same trajectory as they're going on now, that's what like we're predicting the future is going to be.
00:08:25
Speaker
And I think that happens all the time throughout history.
Materialism vs. Idealism in Understanding Reality
00:08:28
Speaker
You see, when people start to predict the future, they predict it based off of like where they're currently standing. Right. And they're almost always wrong, you know, it's, it's almost impossible to predict. I mean, you know, five years from now we could get knocked back to the stone age or something, you know, there's no telling what could happen. Um, but honestly, my biggest,
00:08:53
Speaker
problem with simulation theory is it's like it's this first off it's like a materialist view and see it assumes that reality that we're living right now same with materialism it's like it assumes that it assumes that this isn't the real reality that there's a real objective reality behind what we're looking at now that this isn't reality that you know there's a reality out there somewhere
00:09:22
Speaker
and we're inside of this, this is an actual reality. The reality is outside the game or outside the computer box. And so basically all it does is like it asks more questions than it answers. So it causes a whole, it creates two realities. First off, the simulator reality and the real reality. So then we're left with the question of the same questions that we have anyway. It doesn't make any sense. It's like,
00:09:50
Speaker
What is the simulated reality made of first off? And then you have to answer, what is the real reality made of the quote unquote real reality outside of the simulation? What is that? And what is it made of? We can't answer it here. So we're just creating.
00:10:05
Speaker
two realities that we don't know what they are. So there's there's no reason to do that and that's the whole thing with the materialist point of view that doesn't work. It's like it assumes that there is a reality behind what we're looking at now and that this isn't the actual reality. So with the simulation theory it creates a whole new reality outside of the simulation that you can't that just you have to tell me what that's made of then. What is that reality made of?
00:10:35
Speaker
If this isn't actual reality, what is it made of? I think it's like a kind of a materialist way of like kind of getting into idealism a little bit. Cause with idealism, you say that reality is mind. It's a, it's a reality of mind and simulation is kind of like that, but it's the materialist view of it. It kind of, that's how it feels to me.
00:11:02
Speaker
And I think you might have to define the, like each consecutive, like higher reality as also a simulation within that, that
Can Mathematics Truly Depict Reality?
00:11:12
Speaker
framework, right? Because it's like, rather than saying it's turtles all the way down, like it'll be, it would be simulations all the way down.
00:11:20
Speaker
And like you said, that's a very materialist version of like an existential reality. It's very interesting. And same with like all materialism, it assumes though, even if it is simulations all the way down, it assumes at one point there must be a real reality. One where the simulation was made, the original simulation, there has to be a spot where
00:11:45
Speaker
actual reality is happening. And that's not here in their view, which I think is ridiculous because everything that you've experienced tells you otherwise. It's when you start just diving into infinite concepts that you come up with these ideas instead of trying to void your mind of concept and just experience the reality itself. And it seems to break reality down into codable emergence.
00:12:15
Speaker
of all of the things that we see as if everything that is around us, uh, emerges from just the correct code and you can create consciousness with code. You can create anything with code. And I know that you hear a lot of like people say, and I've heard this a few times before that, like, oh, if you go down to the very.
00:12:36
Speaker
The plank length or whatever the plank length and you look at the particles and you do, you know, the particular research that people are doing at that tiny, tiny scale that you can see that reality is made of ones and zeros. But I don't know what that really means. Like when you say ones and zeros, like, do you mean the same ones and zeros that we use when we code software?
00:13:02
Speaker
And if so, like, I just personally have a problem with breaking reality down into, again, like a, a codable emergence of phenomenon.
Consciousness Over Mathematics in Reality Understanding
00:13:14
Speaker
Yeah. I find that pretty ridiculous as well. Um, and then, cause even when you're looking at like the, the plank length and all this, you are, this is thing with like quantum mechanics, you're entangled with the instrument, you know, so that.
00:13:31
Speaker
the entanglement between you and the instrument is actually creating a new reality or like that you're looking into. So I also, I don't, I've heard that too. Like it's all ones and zeros, which is not because first off it's with numbers. It's kind of funny because numbers, like a lot of people say also that, um, that reality is mathematical and they like fundamentally mathematical, which is insane because
00:14:01
Speaker
I think, you know, reality itself is infinite and there's an infinite, like numbers itself, mathematics has its own sub infinity. There's an infinity of numbers. Plus that's just one infinity, like one sub domain of infinity, where there's like an infinity of movies, there's an infinity of everything. So, and then all those together is absolute infinity.
00:14:28
Speaker
Um, which is what reality is. It's all of that. So to try to take one subdomain to define the whole doesn't work. You know what I mean? Yeah. Again, it's like a physical list measurement. You know, it's, it's the way that humans understand the language of nature and the language of how things are built.
00:14:54
Speaker
But to say that that also equals ultimate reality, I don't, I don't think you can say that. Yeah. And this is also what I was going to say is it's funny because numbers, what numbers are, are symbols. And so there's no numbers that actually exist in reality. You don't see ones and twos floating around or zeros and ones when you look all the way down, they don't exist. It's a symbol of a symbol basically.
00:15:23
Speaker
Like I could say you represent one, one being the symbol that represents you being a symbol, or you could be four, meaning two arms, two legs or something. So the numbers, all they are are symbols of symbols, basically. And I've heard people also say it's like the universal language.
00:15:44
Speaker
They called mathematics universal language, which I understand because it's so useful, but there's nothing universal about it. It's purely human, you know, nothing else uses mathematics as a language. You know what I mean? If anything, it's more of a survival instrument than, you know, a language.
00:16:07
Speaker
I think the notion behind the claim that it's a universal language is that if a species gets to a certain level of evolution, which essentially means a certain level of being able to, um, identify more and more complex patterns, then you start to identify like the most complex pattern that we can identify, which is math.
00:16:34
Speaker
So I think that's where that comes from and I agree with that because if you're going to say that evolution is a real thing and you're going to say that like the biological world physical list world in some way shape or form coincides with or is maybe a flip side of reality then
00:16:54
Speaker
I think being able to as a biological entity, identify the patterns that are math, I think is super important. And in terms of like understanding what the universe is, I think it is integral, but it's not everything. It's definitely not everything. See, and this is, I'm glad that you said that. And I do agree that math is, mathematics are very important for us humans and it's, you know,
00:17:21
Speaker
because of mathematics, we enjoy so many things and understand so many things. But I'm of the belief, and that's why I have problems when people say that reality fundamentally is mathematical because I believe that
00:17:39
Speaker
all human beings as any human being can understand reality to the fullest extent by just being human itself. I don't think I have to learn mathematics to get to the truth of reality. I don't think that you have to be a mathematician to understand reality. I think consciousness is the key and I think
00:18:01
Speaker
that mathematics are important when it comes to manipulating this form of existence in this quote-unquote physical realm. I think mathematics are important for that, but I think that understanding reality in a true sense is something that happens deep inside of your soul or whatever you want to call it, your mind. I think every human has access to that.
00:18:28
Speaker
And even I would say that humans that never had an understanding of mathematics at all could have had the understanding of what reality is. Well,
Human vs. Animal Understanding of Reality
00:18:37
Speaker
I think I think what I'm saying is more so like the ability for a species to understand the patterns that are math. I think.
00:18:47
Speaker
Uh, end up that ends up being one of the most integral tools that a biological entity can use to understand the nature of reality. Because if you look at, you could say like a person who was born and grew up and like never learned math.
00:19:04
Speaker
But they still have the capacity to learn math that was instilled in them by past generations and past evolution. But like a dog, they don't have the ability to do complex math. So maybe along with the ability to do complex pattern recognition comes a higher, uh, potential to understand the nature of reality. It to me, it seems like those both go sort of they coincide with one another.
00:19:34
Speaker
I agree with that, but my point is I don't think that you need mathematics to understand reality. I think it's like a spec or it's like one piece of sand on a beach where it's there and there's an infinity of mathematics.
00:19:54
Speaker
And I think that it's basically the best tool we have to do amazing things like, you know, go to outer space and create technology and all that. But I have this I have the strong feeling that just being human itself is what just being conscious is all you need to and not that it's easy. You got to push yourself to the limits, like push your mind and
00:20:24
Speaker
It's not just going to come easily, I don't think. A lot of times when I hear mathematics being fundamental, it seems like what they're talking about is that there's a reality underneath this reality that's made of numbers and code, like you said. One day, we're going to write a big enough equation that's going to somehow sum up the totality of infinity, which is insane.
00:20:52
Speaker
It might be able to describe some of it, but, you know, I, and again, it's funny you use the word sum up, which is a mathematical term. Like we, we really use, uh, like we, we look through the lens of mathematics for like everything that we look at, but.
00:21:07
Speaker
So what do you think the difference is then between, or I guess the first question would be, do you think that human consciousness is the closest to understanding reality in terms of the rest of the species on Earth?
00:21:22
Speaker
Um, do you think other species of animal have some sort of, uh, enlightened, um, mode of being where they are closer to the thing than us? Maybe because they're less distracted by the many material things that we consider important or, um, and if, if there is a difference, what do you think that difference is and how, how does it impact our ability to understand the nature of reality?
Transcending Human Consciousness
00:21:49
Speaker
Well, I think that basically we are all of one consciousness. So we're just like the absolute consciousness is inside each form. And while in your form, I don't think that you can understand the totality. Like as a finite being, I don't think you can understand the infinite really, which is why I think in order to understand it, you have to
00:22:18
Speaker
You have to achieve such a radical state of consciousness where you're no longer human basically. So like 5MeoDMT, you have to literally, in a sense, people who have done it will say that they didn't exist as a human being. And even through other psychedelics, you can describe that same experience like when the ego dies.
00:22:44
Speaker
or I think you have to reach radical states of consciousness in order to understand. Because right now, we are in the human state of consciousness and we're existing as finite beings in this dream, basically. We're dreaming the human dream right now. And I think that we are limited by our humanity at this point. But as the one consciousness, we can experience
00:23:14
Speaker
all infinite types of consciousness. Your true nature can experience the consciousness of a dog. It can experience the consciousness of any being, any possible being. You can dream any infinite type of dreams. But we are just playing out this role right now. But as we're playing out this role, I think we can achieve, get to the Godhead, being ultimate love, just pure selflessness.
00:23:44
Speaker
and as selfish beings, more limited with our love. The idea of God would be pure selflessness. God would be a mind with no biases. So that would allow God to love everything equally. You have no bias. And what makes us less than that is we all have these biases that we, in order to love one thing,
00:24:13
Speaker
If you take it away from us, we can't love the thing that took it away. So do you think that the point of playing this game that we're playing is to achieve that or to realize that ultimate state of love and like the ultimate state of like what the Hermeticists call like the all? I personally believe that. But this is like an interesting question because
00:24:43
Speaker
It comes to the point where, you know, for me, I say that that is the truth. Um, but then people, I want to do a whole episode on the meaning of life or the purpose of life as well, but we can talk a little bit about that. So then it comes to the question of what is meaning and where does it come from? Is there such thing as an absolute meaning or is it relative? And we all come up with our own meaning. You know what I mean?
00:25:13
Speaker
Or is it a paradox and it's both? And it seems that in order to explore this question properly, you do have to sort of accept the paradox of it being both. And I think it has to be both. Yeah, for sure. But for me, I would say.
00:25:32
Speaker
the meaning of this state that we're in is to transcend it, basically.
Ego Death and Spiritual Growth
00:25:40
Speaker
And doing that through changing your state of consciousness, understanding your true nature, and becoming that selfless mind and relieving all biases. Like I was saying, as we have a bias, it cuts us off from loving certain things, whereas God,
00:26:01
Speaker
is selfless that has no self. Right now we're existing as a quote-unquote self, our ego. And the thing is, which is why I think it's important to experience an ego death for people who
00:26:15
Speaker
A lot of people say like you got to kill the ego and like they think that you're supposed to just remain with a dead ego or something. But I do think that the ego death is just such an important experience because it's something that you get through and then your ego returns and then you understand that that's not what you actually are.
00:26:38
Speaker
So maybe for a moment you are selfless and absorbed in infinite love and understanding of reality in yourself and you might just get like a taste of it so i think the idea is to. Live out that existence as selfless as you can be as loving as you can be and.
00:26:58
Speaker
And then hopefully relieving as many biases as you can and experiencing love for everything. Yeah. So it's the ultimate teacher. It's like the ultimate, you know, master's degree is, you know, going to and learning from that thing, because then you can come back to this. And I like to call it autopilot because our egos are sort of like an autopilot system, you know, we're sort of, um,
00:27:26
Speaker
just going down this this path automatically where we're waking up and we're, you know, oh, I'm hungry. Oh, man, I didn't get enough sleep last night. You kind of roll out of bed. Oh, I got to take the dog out. He's whining.
00:27:38
Speaker
You quick, take the dog out. You go in, you cook up some food. And by the time you're done eating your breakfast, it's time to go to work. And then you do work and you come home and like, there's this autopilot thing that we're doing all the time. But when you're able to jump off of that and merge with something that is sort of maybe like foundational or exists outside of the systems in which our autopilot keeps us focused on. You're able to come back to the autopilot mode, which you must come back to.
00:28:06
Speaker
in a more informed way, allowing you to live your life with that thing in the back of your mind, that little seed. And as that seed grows and grows and grows, it's going to move your life in a more positive direction, at least in my experience. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I like the way you put that like the autopilot. And it's true. But then the idea, in my opinion, of expanding consciousness is
00:28:33
Speaker
which I would say consciousness is synonymous with awareness. So that when you expand consciousness, it changes that autopilot or it mitigates it to a lower level. So instead of cruising on that autopilot of just, you know, feeding yourself and just always, you know, feeding your survival needs and being selfish, that expanding your consciousness
00:29:00
Speaker
will change that autopilot and you're more aware during the autopilot. So it's less autopilot. So basically every moment you're more conscious of what's happening, you're more conscious of what you are, and you're more aware of trying to be more selfless, like actively putting love out into the world and actively committing selfless acts and things like that.
00:29:27
Speaker
And all of that that you just mentioned is a result of not identifying with the autopilot. And that's the whole thing when people say, Oh, not identifying with your ego. It's not identifying and describing yourself as solely existing as the autopilot mechanism. Like when you can, when you can realize that you are one with the all, like you are everything along with everyone else.
00:29:54
Speaker
It allows you to not identify with your separateness because we want to always identify ourselves as separate from everything and everyone. We're in our own little autonomous bubble and you know, it's all about me and my promotions and my job and my family and what's bothering me, but.
00:30:12
Speaker
that is identifying with your autopilot mode, identifying with your separateness. And you don't have to do that. When you realize that there is something that sort of exists outside of you that you are one with, I think it identifies the problems with
00:30:33
Speaker
Identifying again, too strongly with the ego or the, the autopilot mode that we've been sort of, uh, indoctrinated into, because we didn't really choose it. If you think about it deeply, all the things that have built you up into who you are, you didn't really choose, or at least all the things that built you up into who you are.
00:30:57
Speaker
I could say, at least for me, pre psychedelics or pre like, you know, this awakening path or whatever, like before I started really working myself down the path. You see, that's the importance of psychedelics. Like the psychedelic can give you the experience of that oneness or of your true nature. And for me, I would have never had this awareness without psychedelics. Even I have some pretty profound dream states.
00:31:27
Speaker
But I've noticed most of those have happened after psychedelics. It's interesting. It's like once you've smoked DMT, you can smoke DMT in your dream, but I couldn't do it before. Kind of.
00:31:41
Speaker
So I think psychedelics are so important to reveal that because when you have the experience of like your true nature or the oneness of reality and that experience is more real in a sense than the experience we're having right now or equally as real, but more intense and more profound and you get the gnosis and understanding of what this is all about. When you, you know, transcend all the dualities and there's no beginning and end, it's all just happening.
00:32:10
Speaker
And then you understand that, you know, you are one with everybody that allows you to have the experience of that and know it's true. And then you can work toward that in your autopilot state. So like psychedelics are, for me, it was the thing that really showed me that what reality is all about in a sense, or opened up the doors to start to see it in a different way.
00:32:39
Speaker
Yeah. And what that allows you to do is then like come back to this waking mode of consciousness. And then you can say to yourself, like, huh, I just experienced like that outrageous thing. So what can I do in my life now to support my further growth, uh, in relation to that thing? And I think that's where the rubber meets the road. That's where you really start to change, uh, your life.
Perceptions of Evil and Biases
00:33:07
Speaker
Yeah, I totally agree. And the experience, it makes you reflect on everything that you thought was true. For me, it just opened up this whole thing of just deconstructing what I thought reality was and understanding myself in a deeper way. And that's why, you know, if you think of God as being selfless and if you want to be more God-like, then you should become more selfless.
00:33:37
Speaker
Um, it, when I started thinking about that, then you realize like one of the things I realized, which is interesting. And this is my belief as of now is that if you relieve all biases, then evil doesn't exist. The only evil or hate that exists in the world is you're the one that's
Steelmanning Simulation Theory
00:34:00
Speaker
creating it. That's the funny thing. It doesn't exist outside.
00:34:04
Speaker
as evil, even like the most evil thing, if you can, you know, destroy all your biases and have love for everything, the evil actually ceases to exist. So all the things in your life that, you know, this is definitely not easy to do or nor am I saying I do this all the time, but all the things in your life that are, quote unquote, outside yourself that are evil and you hate
00:34:29
Speaker
You're creating that. And that's why I try to identify my biases and understand them as such. It's not easy to just transcend them, but at least now I have the wherewithal to identify them and understand that that thing that I think is evil.
00:34:48
Speaker
isn't actually evil. It just threatens the thing that I love that I'm biased towards. So if I'm biased towards survival, there's going to be a lot of things that seem evil to me or I create the evil of that thing. You know what I mean?
00:35:06
Speaker
So jumping back to like simulation theory, how does this, if you were to steel man the simulation argument, how would all of this stuff that you just talked about, love, hate, emotional content, empathy, psychedelics, the ultimate reality, how would that all fit into a simulation theory saying, like steel manning the argument, saying that we are in a simulation? Dude, that's hard because
00:35:37
Speaker
For me, I don't know how to steel man it because the thing is, I can't explain the fact of there being something outside of this. You know what I mean? Throughout all my experience and all I know, this moment is all that actually exists and that ever exists is the moment. I guess the best argument is the one that is
00:36:05
Speaker
explained mathematically and the probability of it and the fact that we are creating simulations now that are becoming more and more lifelike. And if you extrapolate 50 years from now, we might have a simulation that man created that is unable to be distinguished from this reality. So we can eventually create a simulation that is indistinguishable from
00:36:35
Speaker
reality itself so why wouldn't it have happened already. I think that's the best argument but see and then even that I have trouble saying because I think the only way to create a simulation that real would be to have something hook up into your brain
00:36:57
Speaker
and touch the right knobs. Because if to have some assimilation indistinguishable from reality, you'd have to be able to smell taste, you'd have to be able to experience all of the senses that we experience here. And I don't think that can actually happen necessarily. So if I were to steel man the argument, I would say something like
00:37:23
Speaker
If so, first of all, we, you can say that like, you'd have to be able to simulate all of the things that human consciousness, um, creates in a person's brain. But I think the argument might be that our brains are also a simulation. All of this thing here, like we're basically highly advanced.
00:37:46
Speaker
NPCs who are essentially having our what we would define as our consciousness altered by whatever or whoever is the creator of the simulation. Therefore, we would have no way of identifying that we're in the simulation. The same way in which some of the government documents have said that UAPs and UFOs
00:38:11
Speaker
uh, in some way, shape or form can alter human consciousness. So in the same way, if we're in a simulation, you'd have to think that if you extrapolate from say like Skyrim, you know, with the NPCs where they have their own lives, you can follow them around and they're going to go to people's houses. They're going to talk to their neighbors. They're going to do certain things, which obviously is all.
00:38:34
Speaker
coded into the system in a way that we can mathematically understand, replicate and recreate. But again, if you extrapolate that type of technology to where you're essentially creating an alterable NPC with something like human consciousness or what we describe as human consciousness, I could see where that argument could take place. Yeah, no, that's a good argument. Um, but the thing is,
00:39:04
Speaker
To say consciousness is within a simulation, the simulation would have to exist within consciousness, though. I don't think there's any way to get around consciousness, is my point. Because no matter what is imagined or existed, in order to exist, you have to be aware of it. It has to be within awareness. So that's where I was saying before, if the simulation, if this isn't reality,
00:39:33
Speaker
Where does the simulation exist? It has to be within consciousness first off. And then is it really a simulation or is it the same thing that we're talking about? Is it just consciousness?
Technological Advancement in Understanding Reality
00:39:45
Speaker
So what if like if consciousness does exist outside of everything, say consciousness is the all and then simulations can exist within consciousness. Would it be possible then for say a species to create a simulation
00:40:03
Speaker
within consciousness that manipulates or alters a part of consciousness that, or you could instill what it is that like a piece of what consciousness is into a coded NPC. I guess that would be the question, right? Like if you can harness and manipulate consciousness the same way, again, I'm going to bring it, bring up UFOs again, the same way that like UFOs supposedly can manipulate gravity.
00:40:30
Speaker
Uofo manipulating gravity it changes the way we think about travel it changes the way we think about time the dimensions and that's something we understand we can actually put into like a physicalist paradigm because we can measure time and gravity with equations and things like that so imagine if we have a situation where
00:40:50
Speaker
human technology gets or whatever some kind of technology gets so advanced that it can harness the power of and sort of use smaller versions of consciousness to then like instill into NPC type things or environments.
00:41:07
Speaker
Well, see, this is the thing that I was thinking, as you said that, which it's hard to use some of those arguments, like, because the problem with physical science is, like you said, you said that we understand time, gravity. And, you know, the thing is, though, we don't understand those things at all. All we do is measure them. We don't know what they are. So when we say that the UAP is manipulating gravity,
00:41:32
Speaker
We don't really know what that is. All gravity is to us is a measurement. Can we assume that the person or the being that's manipulating the gravity understands the gravity? I mean, you could assume that, but we don't know if that, if the thing is even that thing, you know what I mean? It's just like a concept that we have to explain what's happening around us that we don't know what it is. And that's the biggest problem with all these,
00:42:00
Speaker
Like all the material science we do today is it doesn't explain what anything is. We don't know. It doesn't even attempt to. It just measures what's there and manipulates. So the science, it's hard to, in my opinion, argue those things because we don't even understand what they are. And my argument would be that what that is, all those things are just, it's basically
00:42:27
Speaker
just all consciousness. It's just the mind. And I don't think you can get around that with the simulation because it wouldn't be a simulation at that point. Or because if the supposed alien being or whatever that creates the simulation is just a figment of consciousness,
00:42:53
Speaker
then it's still just consciousness all the way down rather than simulations, you know what I mean? Which I think probably could be in the same way that like a video game is consciousness all the way down but it's like it's a much more like a lower version of it and I guess
00:43:13
Speaker
the theory or the thought behind it is that with technological advancement, we will get to a point where we do understand the things that we say we can't understand under a physicalist paradigm.
00:43:28
Speaker
I mean, that there might be some merit to that because I mean, like in the Victorian era, if you, if you said that we could do any, like we could create a combustible, like moving gigantic metal vehicle that can fly at 200 miles an hour.
00:43:47
Speaker
People would be like, that's, that's not possible. There's no possible way I could see that being a reality because it's a manipulation of things that we cannot understand. So it'd be, it'd be magic.
Holistic Approach to Reality and Consciousness
00:44:03
Speaker
Also, we haven't really changed much anatomically from when we were in the Victorian age. So it's like, did we have the potential even back then to understand and create complex mathematical systems that can result in cars and stuff like that? Yeah, they, I think it was, uh, Socrates that I think it was Socrates that said it might've been Plato, but.
00:44:27
Speaker
They said that you never actually learn anything, that you actually, you just remember things. I love that. So like when you're teaching someone mathematics or something, like as a child, they can remember quicker. Like, so they're remembering, you know, it's like the collective consciousness kind of. If you can, if learning is actually just remembering, and to me it seems that
00:44:56
Speaker
all time would exist at once and you can remember it through, you know, necessarily time doesn't have to be moving from start to end. So you can remember from different points. So like all things that will happen are happening already in a sense. You know what I mean? Yeah. You know, it, it reminds me of like, I've heard, uh, Ram Dass say that, um,
00:45:23
Speaker
You know, he stood up in front of a bunch of people, you know, at one of his lectures and you know, he's saying like the most profound things, like the deepest, most profound truths that his guru in India told him that like the secrets of the universe. And when he's telling this gigantic crowd of regular American people, all of them are smiling and nodding like, yeah, like I, I understand. I know. I remember. And he's thinking like.
00:45:51
Speaker
You, you already know, like, why do you need me to tell you? And I think that is the same type of thing. It's like, we sometimes need someone to help us along the path of remembering. It does feel like coming back to a place that, that feels familiar. And I think that's why psychedelics feel so familiar and they feel so universally shared between everyone. It's like.
00:46:15
Speaker
We've all been there before and like, we're all there now and we're all going back there and we're all coming from there. And it's just, it's a strange paradox. Yeah, that was well said. I totally agree. That's like the, the DMT state for me is especially familiar and like.
00:46:31
Speaker
has a aspect of home to it and understanding. And I think it's interesting, like you said, with that lecture that Ram Dassa is doing, like everybody's smiling and, you know, nodding their heads like, Oh yeah, this, I know this. Um, when you hear a truth or experience one, the thing is it resonates with your soul in like a weird way. And that's where I think,
00:47:01
Speaker
that with materialist science, like I said, it's not explaining anything really. It's just measuring it and manipulating it. That's why it doesn't resonate in a deep way. And if it does, it's probably linked to something deep within you. So when you learn the analytics of reality, that's why I think that every human being has that thing within them to resonate with the truth.
00:47:29
Speaker
And I don't think it has anything to do with the manipulation of this physical realm. I think there are deeper truths that every human being can experience and resonate with, like the things that maybe Rondas was trying to articulate with speech.
00:47:49
Speaker
I mentioned this to you a while ago that I don't think that the truth is able to be articulated in human form or written down, which is sad that, you know, as of modern, I'm not shitting on science altogether, but modern science disregards consciousness and non-physical phenomenon.
00:48:13
Speaker
which I think that's where the truth lies rather than we're just stuck in this routine of measuring and manipulating rather than trying to actually understand what is. And I think when you get that smile on your face and that feeling in your soul and you smile, that's when you're starting to get at what is rather than just the measurement of it or the manipulation of it.
00:48:39
Speaker
Yeah, try to describe that feeling with science, math, or measurement. You can't do it. It can't be done because, like I mentioned before, those things are sub-infinities. Each of those things are infinite themselves within the totality of infinity. So you can't use a piece of something to describe the entirety of it.
00:49:01
Speaker
You know what I mean? Kind of like, uh, Gödel's incompleteness theorem. So like, you can't prove something with the thing itself. And that's, again, I'll go back to science. It's like, how do you prove the scientific method is correct? Cause you have to use the scientific method to prove the method. So you're using the thing itself to prove the thing correct. So you have to have something outside of it to prove it. You know what I mean? So I think,
00:49:30
Speaker
You know, that's why these truths of reality have to be basically outside of standard human consciousness. Those experiences will, you know, show you the truth and then you come back and you have a piece of it. And like, I think that you can experience the totality of it, but you come back with pieces.
00:49:57
Speaker
And they say that every scientific paradigm requires one free miracle. And I think where.
00:50:05
Speaker
The free miracle comes from is probably this study of consciousness, that thing, that other side of reality that we're talking about. I think that's where the miracles happen. That's where they're from. And that's where you can find the things that break the scientific paradigms apart and just, uh, show them for what they are, which is, uh, essentially highly advanced measuring systems.
00:50:33
Speaker
And I've said this quote before a few times, but I'll say it every time that Albert Einstein quote that said you can live life in two ways. One, as if nothing was a miracle or two, as if everything was a miracle. And I think that quote was pretty profound to me. And that's kind of how I live my life now as the latter, you know, seeing everything as a miracle. Um, and another thing with, and that's, we need more scientists like that, that have that mindset today, which, cause it,
00:51:02
Speaker
The problem with material science right now is it ignores the non-physical and it ignores consciousness in just regards it as a problem. It assumes matter or space-time rather than the miracle of consciousness, which I think would be an interesting place for more scientists to start, like Donald Hoffman.
00:51:27
Speaker
But the thing with science now, I think in a sense we're getting so much better at manipulating our reality and making incredible technology. But I think we're in a sense going backwards and understanding the totality of it all. Because I think science needs a more holism to it. Because what science is doing now, it's fragmenting further and further and further. There's so many different sciences.
00:51:57
Speaker
ask a scientist a question, it can take them so far and then they'll say, well, that's not my expertise. You have to ask X kind of scientists to go further with that because there's like a biologist.
00:52:09
Speaker
chemists all these and they're fragmenting even further and further rather than a holistic view of science that just involves consciousness holism metaphysics all that stuff looking at the totality rather than having so many experts in you know subdomains of it so we can I think it would be helpful to try to have
00:52:34
Speaker
uh a more holistic view and see the whole thing and try to answer the big questions rather than fragmenting further and further because if you think about it there's way more different kinds of science today than there was you know 100 years ago now there's so many different
00:52:53
Speaker
different kinds of science that you can go into and that lets us measure more things and create more things and understand, in a sense, these deeper aspects of little fragments, but there's less people getting funding or researching the whole thing.
00:53:18
Speaker
The issue I see with that is like, how hard would it be to have an entire species or at least a prominent amount of them understand every single type of science, merge that science into a foundation of understanding all types of philosophy. It, to me, it seems like this is the infancy of us trying to understand all of reality.
00:53:46
Speaker
And I don't think it's possible, at least in the current state that we are, to merge all of the stuff that we're seeing into a cohesive, holistic view of reality because it's just too much. It's just too much for us to understand. It's too much for us to calculate.
00:54:08
Speaker
Because like you said there's so many different types of science is so many different types of avenues of research that you can spend an entire lifetime. Just researching birds and you will never know everything about birds so imagine if like one person knows a lot but not everything about birds.
00:54:26
Speaker
Another knows a lot, but not even everything about ants. And even if you brought all those people all together, just within like environmental and biological science, like you still wouldn't have a holistic understanding of biology. So to me, it seems like we're delving into a reality that is so complex and so complicated that we're trying to take baby steps in the best ways that we can to figure this thing out.
00:54:55
Speaker
Yeah, and I don't think that way would ever work either. I don't because I think as we are expanding furthering and creating more forms of science, we're literally creating more. So like the more we look in a direction, the more we'll find. I don't think it's about learning everything about an infinite expansion of different sciences because that will go on forever.
00:55:20
Speaker
I think it's more of a stepping back and looking at the single thing itself. Just, you know, instead of, I don't think you have to know everything about everything to understand reality.
Exploring Consciousness Through Psychedelics and Meditation
00:55:30
Speaker
You know, I think it comes with that gnosis. I think it explains reality without giving you the answer to every trivial fact. Don't you think those trivial facts create more context to further understand like the all though?
00:55:47
Speaker
I don't think so, actually. I don't think necessarily. I think a lot, like the trivial facts aren't necessary in understanding the whole. I think the more you look into trivial facts, the more trivial facts you'll create. Like you said, you could look into birds forever. There's an infinite science of birds. There's an infinite science of everything. So I don't think that fragmenting science infinitely and then trying to put it together is the way to understand the whole.
00:56:17
Speaker
I think it's a different approach, a holistic approach. There's people doing that kind of thing, but it's in the fringes and it's not funded. The good thing, I think that each individual can do that themselves with expanding their own consciousness and exploring their own consciousness.
00:56:35
Speaker
you know, hopefully, if you're willing to, you know, use psychedelics for this, I think that's the, you know, the best tool, psychedelics, meditation, breathing techniques, combining all those are, you know, I think the mind itself is where the answer, the answers lie, like in your own mind, not, you know, putting every mind together, and then
00:57:03
Speaker
trying to add all the different minds, all the facts within those minds and all the measurements, putting all those together is going to get the whole, I think it's like stepping back and taking a different approach to understanding. Yeah, I like that.
00:57:19
Speaker
And it seems like spiritual awareness is the approach. And our last episode, I think you started the podcast by asking me what I thought spirituality was. And I said something like existentially outside of ourselves. But I think that I want to amend that statement, especially in accordance with this conversation.
00:57:45
Speaker
and say that it's actually the act of looking within and finding out who you are. That is where you find out the nature of all of the things that I think we're discussing is really looking at who am I? What am I? I totally agree. And then that's why with our method of science today, it's looking out every, all the answers we look for are outside of ourselves. Um,
00:58:13
Speaker
There's no science of within, which I think is the importance. And I think that's where you will find the answers. Like you just said, I think every human being has the answers within them. If they just have the ability to know that and then start to explore. But in our culture, the way that we are raised and the way we are indoctrinated into thinking,
00:58:38
Speaker
We don't really take that as a serious possibility. It took for me psychedelic experiences to understand the power of looking within and the possibility that everything that you could ever need to know is all within yourself.
00:58:57
Speaker
It sounds like cheesy because we were indoctrinated into this materialist way of thinking, like if you look, zoom into the table far enough, you're going to know what the table is. And if I measure it enough, we're going to know what it is.
00:59:12
Speaker
Science can't explain qualia. Like it can't explain what red is. Like when, what is it actually? It'll say, Oh, well, you know, your brain is doing X, Y, and Z and the light is doing X, Y, Z. And, but that's not actually what it is. It's, it's just, you're just picking it apart and measuring it with measurements that we've created with the symbols we've created, the numbers we've created.
00:59:38
Speaker
So it allows us to understand things in a sense and manipulate it, but that never gets to the core of what the thing is. And I think that's like the holistic view I'm talking about, is trying to figure out what it is, where I think certain times, especially more so in the past, it seemed that's what the purpose of religion was, to understand yourself, understand what is, and then science.
01:00:06
Speaker
it's gonna try to tell you how and what you can do with that yeah i think that the biggest disconnect is like you said realizing that everything all of knowledge all of human experience everything it all exists within you.
01:00:24
Speaker
They use the physicalist paradigm and all the things that you just described to create a little box out of what is potentially in you and in your brain. And they say, well, the only thing that's in there is like brain tissue and your organs and your synapses and your neurons firing and brain chemistry. And like, that's all that's in there. But the inability to realize.
01:00:48
Speaker
like the depth to which that box goes, um, I think is the problem. And when you do realize, Oh, wait, that's what they mean by everything is all inside of me. When you do see the depth at which like the inside of you is like how big and how endless and giant and huge and just
01:01:10
Speaker
indescribably enormous, the inside is, then you can start to understand what people mean when they say, it's all in here, it's all inside, look inside yourself. Yeah, it's, it's beyond the brain. And then I just thought like, this is a good question to contemplate, especially if you're a materialist. If when you're dreaming, is the experience you're having happening inside
01:01:36
Speaker
the brain of you in the dream or is it happening in the brain of the sleeper you know because you you are in the dream unknowing that you're in a dream and you have a brain in that dream supposedly you have this brain that is you know I don't even know really what the materialist view is on dreams but
01:01:56
Speaker
Is that dream brain? Is that the one that is showing you the colors and showing you everything that happens in that dream? Or is it the brain outside the dream? You know what I mean? It's beyond brains basically is my point.
01:02:13
Speaker
And the problem is like, they are looking at it in a situation where, and this is the kind of like, if a tree falls in the woods and there's no one there to hear it, does it make
Dreams and Non-Physical Realities
01:02:23
Speaker
a sound? And then someone will say, well, if you have a video camera up, like it'll make a sound. Like people, I think materials, materialists look at dreams as if like, if you put a video camera on someone's nightstand and you film them dreaming.
01:02:37
Speaker
they're fucking sleeping dog like they're not awake that is what what they're experiencing is not real at all that is the physicalist mentality of what a dream is i think yeah but the thing is they don't understand that them looking at the dreamer is just happening within their consciousness and if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it it doesn't make a sound that's the answer to that first off because sound isn't
01:03:05
Speaker
isn't an absolute property of reality. There's without ears, there's no sound. There needs to be an ear to hear it. And that's like there's another thing to think about is like, say, a billion light years out in space, the color red is out there. Is it out there?
01:03:24
Speaker
What is red? Is red existing outside of human consciousness? Is that a real thing? Is there just an absolute red that exists? Or is everything exists without consciousness? And the idea of that red existing out there is all that would exist. Or even light, sunlight. The fact like eyes manifest light, like eyes are
01:03:49
Speaker
creating it like you said like without Without vision vision implies light. I think it's an Alan Watts quote and you know Those things all have to exist within consciousness
01:04:03
Speaker
Nothing can exist outside of it. You have to be aware of a thing for it to exist. The only thing that exists is existence. Non-existence only exists as a concept. Nothing doesn't exist. It's just a concept of non-existence. I think I might have mentioned this as an easy example. Santa Claus does exist.
01:04:28
Speaker
but it exists as a myth. If Santa Claus didn't exist, there wouldn't be gifts under the tree. The reason that the gifts are put under a tree is from the myth of Santa Claus. Just because it doesn't exist in a physical nature doesn't mean it doesn't actually exist.
01:04:45
Speaker
non-existence, because anything you can think is within consciousness and within awareness. So even if you don't have a physical experience of it, it still exists, just not in the way that you want it to. So, you know, unicorns exist. It exists as exactly what it is when I say unicorn, what exactly we think is what exists. You can't think of something that doesn't exist because it at least exists in a concept.
01:05:11
Speaker
As soon as you think of something that doesn't exist, it pops into existence. When they say don't think about a pink elephant. Right. There it is. It exists. Yeah. And I, you know, it exists as exactly what you just thought. You can't, as soon as, you know, you've come up with the idea of what doesn't exist, it suddenly exists. All is mind. Yeah, that's it. I think that's, that's the key. And I think the more people that start to
01:05:38
Speaker
start thinking this way we can transform reality and who knows you know anything that we create
01:05:48
Speaker
has to be a thought first. So the more people thinking in this, you know, different frame, who knows what can be created. It's like you could think of, um, like if ideas are just objects from the future, you know, just like, uh, it's funny because in order for, uh, if everything exists at once and the idea pops into your head and then that you could think of the idea as a being or
01:06:15
Speaker
or an object from the future. It just pops as an idea and then it becomes physical. You know what I mean? In order for a rocket ship to exist, it had to be an idea first. And where did that idea come from? That's a good question. Yeah, where does it come from? Some people claim that if you listen to or read the books of Steven Pressfield,
01:06:41
Speaker
He says that he contacts what he calls the muse, which is like some sort of an external being or consciousness or vibe or something where ideas come from. And he taps into that thing in order to absorb the ideas that it has to offer. And there's a lot of people that think that way. There's this famous author that when I was in college, I was in a class and we watched a Ted talk.
01:07:08
Speaker
Um, by a woman who essentially described the same exact thing when she's writing, she'll sit in her, on her desk in her room and she will literally like contact the muse, like the external source of ideas. And then they'll come to her. And I'm sure a lot of people out there can also attest to the fact that when they've had an idea at some, in one, one situation in your life, you can probably think to yourself that you've had an idea.
01:07:38
Speaker
that was, in your opinion, kind of brilliant. And you had no idea where it came from. It just popped into your mind, popped into existence. And that's the type of ideas where they say come from this quote unquote muse. And that can kind of tie into what we were just talking about a little bit earlier with, forgive me if it was Socrates or Plato.
01:07:59
Speaker
And the fact that you don't ever learn anything or come up with something, it's that you're remembering. So if you could, I mean, who knows, but say if time isn't absolute in the way we experience it right now, if the things that we are, the new ideas we're getting are just actually things that we're remembering from future, quote unquote future, which is actually already happening.
01:08:23
Speaker
So the future invention that it already exists somewhere, just not inside of our idea of space and time, it exists. And then when you come up with the idea, you're actually remembering a different time where it existed.
01:08:39
Speaker
So that begs the question of is time linear? And if that framework is something we can work under, then it seems time is not linear and it's, it's all here. It's all now it's all one happening. And what's interesting about that is that it seems that.
01:09:00
Speaker
These dimensions, quote unquote are travelable, or you can like experience a piece of a dimension that you're not currently in or something like that. And like that, it boggles my mind, but it also, like we were talking about earlier, it resonates. I get that deep feeling that.
01:09:21
Speaker
science and physicalism can't describe and can't put into a box. And to me, that feeling means something. What that feeling means, that's what I'm trying to discover. Well, yeah. Cause that feeling is true. You know, it's true in the sense of that the way it resonates is true. And especially through experiences that I know you've had and I've had through, you know, these,
01:09:47
Speaker
different states of consciousness where these ideas are proven to you in a sense. It's not like you're theorizing that maybe you can experience a different dimension or something outside of this reality. Maybe it's possible, but no, it's like you can have that experience
01:10:07
Speaker
And then that allows you to kind of expand on those thoughts during this state. And then the next time you go into one of those experiences, you can go further, you know, it's like, you bring back a piece, integrate it into your, you know, standard consciousness state into your, yourself as this human being. And then when you go back in, you have more to bring to it. And then you get some more and then you come out and you bring it back. And then it's like a process of just,
01:10:35
Speaker
gaining more knowledge and understanding deeper. And I think it's an infinite process. It's just, that's what existence is. It's just infinite. So we'll be doing this forever. And there should be a better word for a dimension for it because we're just using the word dimension because it's the closest thing to like an alternate state of reality. And again, dimension is a mathematical term and we use
Psychedelics as Tools for Deeper Understanding
01:11:04
Speaker
We project mathematics onto all analysis of reality and it sucks that we have to do that because when you and I talk about alternate dimensions to somebody who doesn't. Have like the background to understand what we're talking about. They think that we're talking about like Harry Potter shit, like magic, you know, and that's not the right.
01:11:27
Speaker
like description for it. It just so happens we're using the only words that the English language has for us. But that's such an issue with language. I mean, that's why these, I, the truth of these things can never be spoken purely, but someone like Ram Dass can tap into it and know it and articulate it in a way where you can feel a piece of it and really
01:11:53
Speaker
It can affect you in a real deep way, but it requires the actual experience to understand it fully. And like, yeah, dimensions is not the right word. It's, you know, most people you say like, you don't really even know what that means. You know, it's like different levels of reality.
01:12:17
Speaker
Because it's all real and if you've experienced a DMT state or like just any deep psychedelic state, you can't convince yourself that it's not real. You can't do it because it's real. Once you're at a certain point, there's no going back. I mean, if you've taken like a gram, you might be able to convince yourself and look around like, oh, this isn't real, I took a drug. But if you are fully immersed in a psychedelic experience, there's no questioning the reality of it.
01:12:45
Speaker
absolutely real and it's so real that you're able to experience something that will change you forever and something that will teach you something that you could have never learned without the psychedelic or, you know, maybe it's inevitable that you took that psychedelic and learned that thing.
01:13:07
Speaker
But it's just, it's so powerful. It's the most powerful thing that I've experienced in my life, for sure. Psychedelics are my free miracle. Yeah, yeah.
01:15:52
Speaker
you