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55. Exploring The Psychedelic Realm with Barrett Perlman
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Barrett is a fearless psychonaut, venturing into the uncharted territories of the human psyche through very deep plant medicine work. She not only is an explorer of the deep, but also assists others in their journeys as a plant medicine practitioner, and coach. She is the host of the Modern Hippie Podcast, which dives deep into the ideas that support her work and curiosity.
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Transcript
Introduction and Host Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pursuit of Infinity, a podcast where we explore the depths of human consciousness and delve into the fascinating world of psychedelics. I'm your host, Josh, and in this week's episode, I sat down with Barrett Perlman. Barrett is a fearless psychonaut venturing into uncharted territories of the human psyche through very deep plant medicine work. She not only is an explorer of the deep, but also assists others in their journeys as a plant medicine practitioner and a coach.
00:00:29
Speaker
She's the host of the Modern Hippie podcast, which dives deep into the ideas that support her work and curiosity through interviewing guests and through solo episodes.
Community Announcements
00:00:40
Speaker
All the links that you can find here will be in the description and the show notes below.
00:00:45
Speaker
But before we get to it, we've got a few announcements and some housekeeping. So as always, you can visit our website, pursuitofinfinity.com, where you can not only listen to the pod through our integrated media player, but find all of the places you can follow us as well. If you want to support the show, we really appreciate a follow or a sub, as well as a five star rating and a review, as these things help to boost our standing in the algorithms, as well as the hearts and minds of our peers.
00:01:13
Speaker
So for the announcements, we have a newly created discord server, which you'll find a link to in the description. There are some general chat channels where anyone can join. So come on over, see what we've got and be part of the discussion. But we also have some patron only channels that are extra special, including channels dedicated to mushroom cultivation giveaways and live streams.
00:01:37
Speaker
Which brings me to the next announcement. We have completely revamped our Patreon offerings. So if you're an avid listener and want to show us some extra support, you'll get some great stuff in return. As mentioned, you'll gain access to our Patreon-only Discord channels, which will include monthly livestream Q&As, and that's on our $2 a month tier.
00:01:59
Speaker
So on our second tier, which is the $5 tier, you'll get all of that as well as a Pursuit of Infinity gift pack, which will include an array of trinkets like stickers, pins, and other things, as well as a t-shirt. So head on over to patreon.com slash Pursuit of Infinity to find out more. And before I forget, check out our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash at Pursuit of Infinity.
00:02:23
Speaker
All of our episodes are always posted there in video format, as well as an array of shorts that we have been putting together on a regular basis.
Barrett's Wakeboarding Journey
00:02:31
Speaker
Now with all of that out of the way, thank you so much for listening and please help me to welcome to the show Barrett Perlman.
00:02:53
Speaker
Hey, everybody. Welcome to Pursuit of Infinity. I'm your host, Josh. If you listen to the audio version, you will have heard a short introduction to our guest today. Um, today I'm joined by Barrett Perlman, the host of the Modern Hippie podcast. Thank you, Barrett, for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me, Josh. So the first thing I want to talk about is, uh, you were a pro wakeboarder and I saw some pictures online of you like doing crazy flips and like you were the real deal. So tell me about that.
00:03:22
Speaker
Thank you Yeah, that was a big chunk of my life I kind of graduated high school and was competing at wakeboarding and then as I went off to college Went to Orlando, which is like the Mecca for wakeboarding and just got super super into it I used to not really be great at sports. And so this was the first sport I really excelled at and I think there's a lot of important lessons in sports now that I reflect on it that
00:03:52
Speaker
you really learn to fall down a lot and get back up. And I was really known for being a chick who fell a lot. And I would land my runs a lot also and I would do well on tour, but the lessons that come from trying and trying and trying again and then trying something that you know works and yet still falling sometimes. So there were a lot of lessons in like getting the shit kicked out of you and having to get back up and go again that I really appreciate now in everything that I do.
Psychedelics and Personal Transformation
00:04:21
Speaker
I think it's a great, great lesson for business. It's a great lesson for self-development. It's a great lesson for exploring psychedelics. And yeah, it was a really great, great time of my life. I spent six years being a professional wakeboarder and on any given day I was ranked top 10 in professional women all around the world. It's amazing. Did you train like all of your life for it? Like how long did you do it for?
00:04:47
Speaker
I started wakeboarding when I was 14 years old. When I was 15, I started doing it somewhat regularly. I learned how to snowboard first, ironically, from a little girl growing up in South Florida. It convinced my parents to take me snowboarding first. And it was like, holy shit, I love this sport. I want to be a pro snowboarder. And my parents were like, we live in South Florida. That's not going to happen. Pick something else.
00:05:12
Speaker
And so I just happened to have a neighbor who was a wakeboarder and ran a wakeboard school out of his house and all of these pros from all around the world were flying in to train with him. Just kind of really luck of the draw. And so he taught me how to wakeboard and I never, ever, ever thought I was going to be pro at it because I had sucked at all of the sports before it. You know, even in gymnastics, they had to take me off to the side and like tell me that all of my friends were going to graduate to level two.
00:05:40
Speaker
If I didn't flip backwards on a trampoline. And ironically, we use trampolines to cross train in wakeboarding. And so now I'm so comfortable flipping and spinning and all of those things on it. But yeah, it just.
00:05:57
Speaker
Once I was 15, I started doing it sort of regularly. By 16, I was driving down to about an hour south of where I lived to train with a coach. And they were just sort of very adamant on like, well, you should train and ride for junior women's division. So that way you have a purpose in coming here.
00:06:15
Speaker
And so they had me putting together what are called runs. And a run is basically your competition format, your competition pass. So when you jump off the dock, you usually go down to one end of the lake, turn around, and that's your first run to the other end of the lake, turn around, you get a second run back and then head back into the dock. And so we started learning tricks and things that I could put into a run to be competitive.
00:06:41
Speaker
And I competed at Junior Women's and I always just did super shit. And so I, again, never thought anything of it until I moved to Orlando for college. And I started training with the best coach in the world there. His name's Glenn Fletcher at Otown Water Sports. And as I'm training with him, I started learning a lot really quickly. And he was like, Pearlman, you gotta try. Like the first tour stops here in Orlando, you gotta go for it. And I was like, okay, whatever.
00:07:10
Speaker
And I did, and I actually rode pretty well. And I got ninth at my very first pro women's competition. And from there, I was like, wow, if I could do ninth off what I have now, I wonder what I could learn and how much better I could do. And then I actually got really good at wakeboarding. Yeah, sometimes it just takes like the right teacher and it seems like maybe the right teacher came into your life at the right time.
00:07:36
Speaker
That's a brilliant way of putting it and as a coach now myself in a different way, I'm really able to reflect on what a beautiful coach he was. He was my third coach in my wakeboarding career and yet he brought so much to the table. He really took the time to understand my
Impact on Personal Relationships
00:07:55
Speaker
brain, understand how I operated. He was really good at knowing what made each one of the students tick.
00:08:02
Speaker
And he could just say the one thing that would like arrow through your heart about the issue. And he was a power team. Like his wife also ran the office. And so once you got off the water, now you're in the office with her and you're getting all of these life downloads and things. And the two of them combined really encouraged me to become the best version of myself that I am today. Sounds perfect. And it sounds like you probably learned a lot about coaching and about teaching from them.
00:08:29
Speaker
Yeah, and I didn't think about it at the time, really. I mean, I coached wakeboarding then, but now that I am like a transformational coach, I see so much of what they did for me. And I see the tough love they gave me and how I had to rise to the occasion to really even benefit from it. But in rising to the occasions on their tough loves, how much I grew in that. Like if you came into wakeboard camp with a bad attitude, you were sent out to rake lake weeds.
00:08:57
Speaker
And what that means is where the boat is kept in the boat slip is pretty shallow. And in Florida, it's hot. And so the weeds are always growing to the surface. And if the weeds get wrapped around the propeller, then the boat overheats, and it's a whole thing. Someone has to get it off, and it just sucks. And so they would send you out there with an underwater rake designed for this. And you would have to stand in four feet of water and rake lake weeds and be concerned that maybe there's an alligator that's going to come. You're right near these reeds. Maybe there's baby snakes.
00:09:28
Speaker
And you would do that until your bad attitude went away. So I assume by the way that you're describing it, you may have done it once or twice. Easily, at least a couple of handfuls of times. Yeah. So where has your career in coaching led you?
00:09:46
Speaker
Now, in just the last couple of years, I've been stepping into a transformational coach and I am coaching entrepreneurs to use psychedelics to discover their limitless and creative potential to manifest their goals and their abundant life.
Coaching and Healing with Psychedelics
00:10:02
Speaker
I'm also helping people step into their authenticity and essentially what it all really means is I'm helping people heal.
00:10:09
Speaker
at their core, how to deepen their relationships, deepen those connections with people, maybe even save a relationship that's falling apart by doing the inner work and forgiving yourself, forgiving others and equipping them with the tools so that they have the things to turn to when times get tough and they can begin to self-regulate. And once you can self-regulate now, you can also raise your frequency. And when you raise your frequency, you start attracting all of these beautiful things that you could have only ever dreamed of.
00:10:40
Speaker
I mean, when I was a kid, I didn't know life could be this good. I never imagined, like I grew up with so much depression my whole life. I was suicidal my whole life. And it was a mushroom journey that finally saved my life. And I don't even say that lightly. Like it was the night I was ready to die. And instead I was like, I have these mushrooms. Let me take them, see if something happens. And if not,
00:11:09
Speaker
Tonight's it. And that was the night that my higher consciousness connected with me and walked me through how to love myself for the very first time in my entire life. And there was no going back after that. I got hooked on what is happening here with this medicine. How can I continue to utilize this to reframe things in my life and to heal?
00:11:31
Speaker
And I went from someone who just loved getting blackout drunk all the time, was pretty reckless. I don't think I was a great friend. I mean, I was a lone wolf. I honestly always had a good heart. But yeah, it really changed everything about me too, where I now feel so like I've handled a lot of my shit and I'm prepared to continue handling more of my shit. And now it's kind of like a game.
Ayahuasca and Plant Medicine Teachings
00:11:59
Speaker
And it's almost like there's these lessons everywhere. And instead of it being something that's worthy of killing myself over because of this challenge in front of me, now I see everything much more as what can I learn from this? How can I grow from this? And I'm so excited to be sharing that knowledge with other people.
00:12:19
Speaker
Yeah, often it's just like a little bit of reframing and you can change everything in your life. So what was it that brought you to this suicidal tendency? Was it one big particular thing? Was it just an accumulation of all the experiences you've had in your life? What exactly was it? I think it was an accumulation and one particular thing. I think.
00:12:43
Speaker
someone who feels suicidal and depressed, you hang on to that through way all the time. And oftentimes I would get to a place of like, this is my life. Nobody else has to live this life. And it is so fucking painful. It feels wrong to force me to continue on just because it makes everyone around me happy. Like I'm unhappy.
00:13:05
Speaker
And this particular instance was a breakup and it wasn't necessarily that he broke up with me as much as it was the things that I was led to believe about myself in that breakup. That I was a bad person, that I wasn't worthy of love, that
00:13:23
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't think I would ever then think I would ever love again. I didn't think I'd ever find someone. I think that's often something we all have a tendency to jump to until we do find someone. And then the catch is that, you know, even then you can lose someone that you've found, but I digress.
00:13:43
Speaker
Yeah, over the years I had just been really suicidal often about little things. And when I was younger, I was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. And so what that really sort of means was that I would have mood swings that could change on a dime and they could change moment by moment. Like I could be super high and then someone could say something like, oh, you're wearing that dress. And immediately I'd be debilitated.
00:14:11
Speaker
And so I think growing up with that and not knowing how to navigate that really made a lot of seemingly less important things feel really amplified and feel like I couldn't handle them. The first time I wanted to kill myself, I was eight years old and I was going to jump off my balcony and I didn't want to do my homework.
00:14:36
Speaker
And for people who've never felt that suicide, that depression, like it sounds, I get it, it sounds
00:14:45
Speaker
silly. I don't even really want to reflect back on my past self and like judge it, but that was sort of the miniscule-ness of what made me not want to be here. It was like, cool, if I didn't exist anymore, I wouldn't have to do homework. So then there became this three-way for me of there being an exit strategy and that perhaps there was something beyond this life that I could get to that would just be better or different or start over.
00:15:12
Speaker
And yeah, I've done a lot of the healing work now to where those things don't affect me anymore. Like I don't believe that if I went and saw a psychiatrist that I would any longer fall into the borderline personality disorder category. And I think that's a huge testament to the healing of plant medicines. And when you utilize them appropriately as a tool along with other techniques, how we can shift and how we can heal the things that make us feel so broken.
00:15:43
Speaker
Whenever people talk about thinking that it's silly to have those thoughts of suicidal ideation, I always think of this thing I was told one time where somebody compared it to being in a burning building. It's like no matter what situation you're in, it's like the building you're in is burning.
00:16:03
Speaker
You look behind you and you see, uh, you know, the flames and you see the source of those flames and they're going to burn you alive. And then to your other side, you see a window and you decide, I'd rather jump out that window than be burned alive by what I'm facing. So I like to think of it like that. And I also heard, uh, the lead singer of Lincoln park, Chester Bennington, um, he committed suicide. And I remember listening to an interview that he gave and he said, like.
00:16:30
Speaker
in the streets of my mind, like I'm in the alleys of my mind. And these are dark places. These are like dark streets you don't want to be in at night. You know, and he felt like he was in his head in a dark street at night at all times. And it was just like a dangerous place to be. And I resonated a lot with that too. But so what, what brought you to mushrooms? Was there anything before that that you tried? Or was it just like hopeless for you at that point?
00:16:59
Speaker
I had been in therapy off and on my whole life. By the time I was 22 years old, I was coming out of the best therapist I'd ever had in Orlando and I was moving to Los Angeles. She gave me even the blessing to not be in therapy anymore.
Bufo Alvarius and Challenging Experiences
00:17:18
Speaker
I was doing great on antidepressants.
00:17:21
Speaker
They thought I had a chemical imbalance. I'd be on them for the rest of my life. Ultimately, I didn't really like that plan. I'd wean off of them and then everything was fine until something happened. Then you'd try them again or I'd take them again just to avoid feeling like I just wanted to die every single day. I had tried mushrooms when I was 18 years old.
00:17:47
Speaker
did it with some friends in Tennessee, and they really planned the whole thing nicely. They did the Wizard of Oz with the Dark Side of the Moon soundtrack. And if you have never done those two things together, it's one of the few things outside of respecting the mushrooms ceremonially that I will ever recommend. It's a brilliant combination. But I, at that point, too, loved to go back into this back bedroom, and I just loved being by myself.
00:18:16
Speaker
And I would close my eyes and I would have the most incredible visuals. And I knew something was happening that I didn't get much of a chance to sit in then because they kept coming back for me being like, no, you're going to have a bad trip. We can't leave you alone. And I'm like, I am having a great fucking time guys. Leave me alone. And they, they just wouldn't. And so it was a good, another over 10 years before I really did mushrooms. I tried them along the way with different people, but never got to that place and visuals again. And.
00:18:45
Speaker
It's interesting, I think a lot of people have a fear of taking too much, and so they tend to take too little. But I think there's different things that happen based on what your dosage is. And for me, now that I know myself, I love the visual space. And that involves taking more than you think you should. And it's a beautiful place.
00:19:08
Speaker
So yeah, I had bought these off of my dealer and had just been holding on to them for like a month or so. And I remember I was doing a lot of work around like witchcraft and getting in touch with the different systems of the earth, getting in touch with nature, which is really what witchcraft is all about. And I really wanted to see auras and I had this book on it and I was reading about how to relax your eyes. And so.
00:19:36
Speaker
I thought I would take these mushrooms and try to see auras and see what is all the fuss about with these mushrooms. And so I took all the mushrooms. It was probably equivalent of about three grams of not penis envy. So just maybe 2.5 grams to three grams.
00:19:57
Speaker
And went in the mirror and a lot of people said, you know, don't look yourself in the mirror on mushrooms. And my dealer was like, let me tell you, it's one of the best things you can do. Look yourself in the mirror. And I full heartedly agree with that statement now. I went and looked myself in the mirror and I started trying to relax my eyes like I was going to see my aura.
00:20:18
Speaker
And you kind of relax your eyes like you do in one of those pop-up books. If you remember those like hidden image books and then you kind of relax your eyes and they go across and this like image pops out of the page at you. Do you remember that guy, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was how they had described seeing auras. And so I'm looking at my face and I'm watching my face and my eyes, I'm looking at my eyes and my eyes come together as one in the middle of my forehead.
00:20:45
Speaker
I'm like, whoa, I'm looking at this eye in the middle of my forehead. Someone else literally put it together for me the next day that I was looking directly into my third eye. I'm looking at this thing and I'm like, whoa. All of a sudden, all these tunnel flashes start happening. All these images start downloading on the sides of me. If I looked at them, they'd go away. I was like, what is that?
00:21:07
Speaker
And I'm looking at it and all of a suddenly there's this, these clear messages that start coming to me of you have to love yourself. And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know how to love myself. And it went, okay. All right. Let's sit down on the floor. Apollo, your dog, who's also right behind me. For those of you who are watching, he was in his bed on the bathroom floor.
00:21:31
Speaker
And it sits me down and it goes, pet Apollo, fill with the love that you feel for Apollo. Fill with it. Keep filling with it. Fill with it till you're ready to burst. And now I'm like practically in tears. I love my dog so much. And then all of a suddenly higher consciousness drops this mirror between me and the dog and bounces all of what I was directing towards my dog back at me. And immediately I started to feel that love for myself.
00:22:01
Speaker
And I had never felt that in my entire life. And it just changed everything. I was so high off that one journey for like two months, you couldn't bring me down. Like now I had finally touched self-love and I wanted more of it. And I started just thinking there's something to these mushrooms. What the fuck happened? How do I do that again?
00:22:26
Speaker
And of course, now that I know better, you can never recreate the same journey twice. And I would again, I got more of them and I started sort of setting up this regimen for myself where at least once a month I would go on what I called a mushroom journey in my bedroom by myself with music playing and the doors locked and candles lit. And I just would take them and wait to see what messages I would get.
00:22:50
Speaker
And sometimes I had a great messages. Like one time I got channeled up into this Arcturian, what I now know is an Arcturian space with all of these different symbols creating all of the different structures around me. And I kept begging them to tell me what it was I was looking at and they wouldn't.
00:23:08
Speaker
To you know having other journeys where it was just like simply reflecting on past relationships and crying and letting go and then also getting a chance to Look at all the relationships and see what they actually taught me which I don't think we go back and do very often and The way that
Overcoming Fear and Lessons from Psychedelics
00:23:28
Speaker
these mushrooms were impacting me and reframing things I was beginning to heal I was beginning to stop judging myself and
00:23:36
Speaker
I was beginning to love my past and I was beginning to see how that had really put me exactly where I was to now be the decider of my future and what I love sharing about play medicine with others.
00:23:53
Speaker
Amazing. Yeah. It's really the key. I feel like is that self-love or even like the universal eternal love and the interconnectedness that you feel with other people and with nature, because I feel like we kind of lose touch with all of those types of things. When we go through life in Western culture, you go through school, you don't learn shit. All they do is teach you how to obey.
00:24:18
Speaker
They don't teach you how to think or how to love. And most of the time, if you're in a regular middle-class household, your parents are working, so you're not really getting it from them either. So we're brought up by our peers and we're brought up by our entertainment. And it just so happens that the love of the universe and the cosmos is just not included there. Amen. Yeah. How sad is that? God, there's so much in school that should be included.
00:24:46
Speaker
You should learn how to meditate, learn how to move your body, learn how to listen to the messages that arise of pain sensors and other things that could give you insights on how's your diet? Are you moving enough? What's going on? And we're just not learning any of it.
00:25:06
Speaker
Yeah, we, it's, and it's amazing when you just feel a little bit of it, you realize how vast and how expansive it is. And when you access those realms with plant medicine, it's just an endless, endless barrage of love. Um, and also exploration. There's such a mystery about it as well. So it gives you this sense of curiosity too. It's like a very like humbling, comfortable curiosity.
00:25:34
Speaker
Yeah. What plant medicine did you start with? Uh, yeah, for me, it was always mushrooms. Uh, uh, I do DMT sometimes as well. Not quite as often. Uh, mushrooms are just my favorite. Um, I just had some such transformative experiences with them first.
00:25:52
Speaker
I remember there was a friend of mine that we discovered this like sort of together and he in high school was kind of like a bad kid, did a lot of drugs, did a lot of mushrooms, a lot of LSD, a lot of stuff. And whereas me, I never did a single drug in high school, not even marijuana.
00:26:12
Speaker
So I approached him at one point after doing just tons of research because for me, it started with looking at the world and realizing that what was happening just wasn't the right way. It was 2015, 2016, we were looking at these crazy presidential elections where you have like, you know,
00:26:33
Speaker
Mr. Revolution, Bernie Sanders, and you know, crazy Trump on the other side and Hillary Clinton status quo. And I'm looking at these three people and I'm like, these are our choices really, to run our country. So I started to look into other ways of, you know, running things, other ways of structuring things. And then I started to kind of fall into spirituality and I stumbled upon Terrence McKenna.
00:26:58
Speaker
And it was over. I was like, yeah, I gotta get my hands on, on some mushrooms and see what they can offer me and see what I can learn from them. Um, so I approached my friend with this information. I was like, Hey man, listen, I know you've done a lot of these things in the past. So I'm coming to you as a person that I feel comfortable with talking about this too.
00:27:16
Speaker
And I knew he would be right on board with me as well. And when I explained to him why I wanted to take mushrooms, he looked at me and he said, you have no idea what you're talking about. Like, this is not an experience you can get from doing mushrooms. What? That's interesting. So he didn't think the spiritual aspect had anything to do with it.
00:27:39
Speaker
Nope. He always just would ingest them at parties. Um, and he, like I said, he was, he was that kind of a person in high school. And when you're a kid in high school, a lot of times, if you don't have the necessary tools and you don't get lucky enough to have a spontaneous spiritual experience, you can completely bypass that part of it.
00:27:57
Speaker
So I was like, just trust me, man, like this is possible. And of course, coming to him as someone who's never done drugs before, he just kind of laughed it off and was like, all right, let's go in there and I'll show you. And I mean, it was like,
00:28:13
Speaker
I don't know, 10, 20 minutes into the peak of the experience. And he looks over at me and he was like, what the fuck is this? And I was like, this is what I was talking about. And it was just history from there. And then we brought my fiance into it as well. And we would have these beautiful experiences together. There was one point in time where my fiance and I were having like some really rough times, because we've been together for, we're coming up on 16 years.
00:28:40
Speaker
Well, I'm certain and we're both 33. So we've been together for quite a while. Um, and we were having some rough times, uh, probably around 2017. It was something like that. So I said to her, like, if you want this relationship to work and you really think that this is something worth doing, like, why don't we, I pointed to my safes. I always have my mushrooms in the safe. I said, if you want to try these.
00:29:04
Speaker
We can do it and we can try to connect on a deeper level. Um, so we both did it. Uh, we took four grams together and it was amazing. It was so beautiful. We were able to both connect with each other and also ascend and feel that, that feeling of the almighty, you know, that cosmic creator feeling that you get. Um, so yeah, they they've, they've helped to.
00:29:29
Speaker
brought in my horizons and also solidify my relationships with some of the people I care most about, including some family who I've introduced these things to as well. That's my dream to do them with my mom. You will know all hell has broken loose when I get my mom to do them. Is she a real straight edge or?
00:29:48
Speaker
She's very, if it's not legal, no. She's coming around enough now that she's sent me a couple texts being like, I think you're onto something. And I'm like, I know.
00:30:01
Speaker
But that's okay, she's starting to identify. And the Michael Pollan documentary series on Netflix, really, she was like, did you see this? And I was like, I sent it to you three months ago, but I'm so glad you've seen it now. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But like you, I have my first boyfriend I've had in the last six years right now. And it's new, but we're both into psychedelics and plant medicines.
00:30:26
Speaker
The depth at which we're getting to experience each other just is mind blowing. And I strongly recommend that for couples. I see a lot of like husbands and wives and couples coming to do ayahuasca together. And I'm just like, oh, the fantasy of doing ayahuasca together. Like, wow.
00:30:48
Speaker
But you can get that on mushrooms too. It's so connecting and it's so, like you really get to see to the core of the other person and it helps you approach those situations from a hard open space as opposed to, you know, I think without them we can tend to be like, wait, but this is, this is what I think is best and here's why. And we're not so open to receiving someone else's opinion.
00:31:12
Speaker
And then in the medicine, it's so much easier to look through other lenses and the ego gets thrown out the door of needing to be right.
00:31:21
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, we're just so solidified in our ways and we are so asleep in ways that we can't even imagine. And these substances just, they dissolve the boundaries in between what we consider ourselves and who we are and our preferences and like the everything and the interconnectedness, you know, that we feel with, uh, with all of ourselves and with nature. And on the other side of that too, is the fact that you, you feel this, like this impermanence.
00:31:50
Speaker
This like, everything is impermanent, everything is moving, everything is flowing, everything is changing at all times. And what that really helped me to do was to get over my fear of change because I mean, fear holds us back in every single way, especially when it comes to the evolution of ourselves.
00:32:07
Speaker
Absolutely. Oh my God. Yeah. And you just nailed it. Impermanence has been really one of my big, call it curriculum lessons in the last couple of months that's just been coming to the forefront and paying more and more attention to how everything is constantly changing. Like even think of the food that you buy at the grocery store. If you buy produce, it is constantly changing and evolving every single minute. You know, bananas are a perfect example. Gosh, they just go bad so quickly.
00:32:38
Speaker
Yeah, I've let too many bananas rot in my day, unfortunately. Yeah, put them in the fridge. Actually, no one taught me that until like this past year. Now I've discovered they will last longer in the fridge. I didn't even realize that. Okay, I'm going to start doing that because I eat bananas all the time. I love them. Yeah, me too.
00:32:57
Speaker
So do you incorporate a lot of the lessons that you've learned from psychedelics into your coaching, even if you're not using the substances within that coaching realm? Absolutely. I mean, it's my favorite thing to help people use those substances, but for those who aren't ready for the plant medicine and psychedelics path, it's so easy to bring in those lessons from me of what I understand now about the universe and how we function in the unified field.
00:33:28
Speaker
It's a little, you know, it's a shame because I feel like it's almost the long way, getting someone to understand that without plant medicines, but it can absolutely be done. And there's still so many ways that you can drop in and learn the lessons without it. And that's absolutely, I'm grateful that I got to expedite my process through it and learned so many things. And now I get to share that with other people.
00:33:56
Speaker
So which plant medicines do you use when you guide people through ceremonies? I specifically guide psilocybin mushrooms. Um, yeah, I don't think I'll ever guide ayahuasca. I feel like that's a really, that's a very powerful.
00:34:13
Speaker
a position to be in ayahuasca is like this queen of the cosmos. And she is just beautiful. And psilocybin is very connected to this earth, to our realities and perceptions here. And that is actually the medicine that came to me and said, I meant to guide this. So yeah, that's the one I work with. How many times have you taken ayahuasca? Are you pretty experienced with it or have you just started to delve into it?
00:34:43
Speaker
I feel like I've just gotten started. I took, let's see, I'm probably up to like 12 sittings with Ayahuasca. And in June, I'll go back to Peru and I'll sit with her eight more times on a two week retreat with Hamilton Souther, who I believe you just interviewed. And yeah, his ceremonies are incredible, the way that he holds space and each retreat is in and of itself a grander ceremony.
00:35:13
Speaker
There's really interesting ways that it builds over a couple days and that the lessons compound and the medicine knows, like really it knows how long you're going to sit with it. And so she is such an intelligent, intelligent combination of plants that really, yeah, give it to you exactly how you need it.
Integration and Community Importance
00:35:37
Speaker
So yeah, Hamilton, he is a, he's a national treasure. I love that man. And I've only just spoken to him for the first time today, actually. Oh wow. But yeah, he's, he's just a beast in the field.
00:35:49
Speaker
Yes. And I am so grateful to call him a friend and mentor. And, you know, he just launched the blue morpho Academy, which will be training trip sitters, facilitators, master facilitators. Um, so even though I've already been facilitating, I'm really excited to get my certification through him and share that.
00:36:08
Speaker
Yeah, his curriculum seems to be super deep. Uh, I asked him about that. We, we talked a little bit about it near the end of our, of our conversation. Um, and the levels that which you can, you can take, uh, the courses are just like so in depth. And I think he said like the master facilitator, uh, curriculum is like endless. There's no actual timeframe. And that makes perfect sense because you're continuously learning. I mean, I'm sure even he is evolving his, his skills with each ceremony. And he's done hundreds of them.
00:36:39
Speaker
Yes. Oh, he's done thousands of them. I was at his first retreat out of COVID in October, and something he actually discovered was that using earplugs. So we had a woman on our retreat, and he gives earplugs when we go on the boat ride from a ketos up to the Amazon Lodge.
00:37:01
Speaker
this woman who was at our retreat had kind of been tricked into going by her husband and sitting around, being around anyone vomiting as her nightmare. And so now she's in a room with like 30 people vomiting and she was just like, this is my personal hell. And so she put the earplugs in and after the second night of first or second night of ceremony, she said something to everybody like, hey, if the vomiting bothers anybody, these earplugs are phenomenal. And Hamilton was like,
00:37:28
Speaker
earplugs. What? I've never tried that before. And so then he started testing out earplugs and we all started testing out earplugs and it was like a whole new layer to doing ayahuasca. Wow. Wow. So do the ikaro still get in when you're using them? Wow. That's, that's amazing.
00:37:46
Speaker
It's interesting because it just sort of dampens the sound and it takes away the impact of feeling like you're, you're right there in it with someone. Um, and you get just more reflect, you can hear him really clear as day and.
00:38:02
Speaker
You could probably shove them in. I would sometimes shove them in super tight and try to block everything out, specifically when I was in this underwater dimension with aliens. I was like, it's just not appropriate. But yeah, it really dampens the sound of other people's hard experiences.
00:38:21
Speaker
And isn't it like amazing that a guy like Hamilton who, like you said, facilitated thousands of ayahuasca experiences can randomly learn one day from someone who maybe was their first time, a new trick. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So we're always constantly evolving. And what I love about being with him at the ceremonies and the retreats is he's just so generous with his information too. Like.
00:38:46
Speaker
Last time i was there i had written down all these things that i wanted to learn like different tips and tricks that i can take back to my practice for my clients and we were recording some things for the academy actually.
00:38:59
Speaker
And he was showing how to do energy healing and he was teaching how to use a shakapa. And it was like, I realized as I walked away that I now held the knowledge on how to use a shakapa. And that knowledge has now transcended into my ability to hold energy from many different people at one time in actual plant medicine ceremony based on the concepts of shakapa and sending out different lines of energy
00:39:25
Speaker
to different people in the room for the different things that they need. And yeah, he's just, he's so generous with, you can ask him anything and he's like, here's the answer as I know it to the best of my knowledge. Yeah. And I mean, not to mention like his willingness to, to just come on my podcast and yours. He said he's been on yours three times. I mean, he's just so generous with his time and you can really tell he, he wants the world to know what he knows and he wants to share it with everyone as best he can.
00:39:54
Speaker
Yeah, he does. And I'm so grateful that he is still a shaman. He almost quit a couple of years ago. Like he was like ready to throw in the towel. He was just like, he thought COVID and all this stuff was like really knocking the world off kilter. And, um, it wasn't until I think he said sort of halfway through COVID that
Barrett's Projects and Community Focus
00:40:13
Speaker
he got a download of like, Nope, this is the way. And he has to do ayahuasca. And so he's like, okay, I'll figure it out. And.
00:40:23
Speaker
Yeah, they won't let him off the hook that he's like, you're one of the most powerful people in the whole wide world. And like, most of the world doesn't know it yet.
00:40:35
Speaker
Exactly. And hopefully they do soon. And if you and I can try to expel his message as much as we can and host him as many times as possible, then so be it. Let's get it. Yes, absolutely. I love the message and I love the power of sharing it and the power of healing and the power of raising consciousness. And another thing I love about him is we're both Aries. And so he and I both love to go super hard.
00:41:01
Speaker
And so he understands me as a psychonaut as well. So there's like that spectrum with psychedelics and that there's this healing over here and it can be real light and mellow.
00:41:11
Speaker
can be more advanced here. And then there's the psychonautics of like really getting to meet other alien dimensions and exploring these alternate realities and seeing how far you can go. And he enjoys the whole spectrum and I enjoy the whole spectrum. And so when we get together, he just loves to send me super hard because that's what we've agreed upon. And yeah, it's a lot of fun.
00:41:35
Speaker
Perfect. There's a Terence McKenna quote, and he said something like, if you mess with these substances for a long enough period of time, you're bound to scare the pants off yourself. So as a deep psychonaut who goes hard, have you ever scared the pants off of yourself with these substances?
00:41:57
Speaker
Yes. I'm trying to think with plant medicine, specifically less so. Before I met Hamilton in person, I was in Peru for two weeks and I did ayahuasca with a medicine man who was guiding my tour.
00:42:17
Speaker
And he found out that I facilitated psilocybin. And so he went from giving me a small dose to a really big dose. And I at that point had never broken through on DMT. I had had many people sit me down and try to get me to smoke enough DMT to hit this breakthrough space. And based on how they described it to me, I knew I had never broken through.
00:42:38
Speaker
And that was crazy because I'm poised to break through. And so he gave me this massive dose and it was the most challenging experience of my life where I was probably at something that should have been a breakthrough, but instead I was shaking and convulsing and everything was sharp and jagged. And I was calling on every entity, every guide I'd ever had to come and help me and sit with me through this nightmare that I was going through.
00:43:05
Speaker
And I mean, essentially for me at that point, I was laughing through how fucking awful it was. I would say specifically in plant medicines, like in mushrooms per se, I haven't really scared myself. Like I've done some pretty powerful and incredible things because I'm always very curious. I've been turned into like balls of light and
00:43:30
Speaker
seen other balls of light that were representative of other entities and then the nearby and actually got to build another timeline and like move my energy into a different timeline that I then actually watched myself experience. And it was something that had seemed so far fetched to me as something that would be like socially acceptable. Um, but I have scared the crap out of myself on ketamine.
00:43:55
Speaker
And so that is one where a couple of times I was like, Oh, I think I'm not coming back. I think I may not be going back to my body. And that's that, you know, in dumb Academy. And so I'm like, well, someone else will have to figure it out. I don't care. The life isn't even real anyways. Look where I am. If I get to stay here, sweet. Sign me up.
00:44:15
Speaker
That is the scariest feeling isn't it like that you're never gonna come back or you're never gonna be the same again or something You're gonna be insane for the rest of your life. That's just like it's the worst feeling ever Yeah, I've had two times on ketamine also where one time I thought I was getting put back in the wrong body and then another time My best friend lives directly upstairs and so like our bedrooms are over each other and one time I was coming back and I kept thinking in her voice and I thought I was gonna get put back in her body by accident and
00:44:46
Speaker
Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. So I generally feel pretty safe on plant medicines, but Bufo has been kind of terrifying sometimes. I don't know if you've done Bufo yet. I have not. Yeah. I have a facilitator that I just trust and who honors me as a facilitator and had a few cool experiences on it. And then the last time I did it, he
00:45:13
Speaker
He let me sit with it four times in one ceremony. We were doing smaller doses at this point, so around 38 micrograms of actual bouffaut. The third time I did it, I thought my whole face was swelling up and I thought I was vomiting all over my face. I literally thought I was going to come out completely deformed. It was one of those things where I opened my eyes and looked to my facilitator to see if he was freaking out.
00:45:40
Speaker
And he seemed cool. So I was like, okay, I'll be cool. But when I came out of it, I was like, is my face swollen? And he's like, he's like looking at, I was like, no, no, it would be like obvious, like elephantitis, like swollen. And he's like, no, no, no. And I'm like, okay, okay. Then I'm going to chill because that was clearly all in my head. But yeah. That's five MEO, right? Bufal various? Yes. Five MEO DMT.
00:46:05
Speaker
Yeah, that's crazy. I would love to try it, but also scared and intimidated by it too.
00:46:12
Speaker
She is worthy of being honored, that's for sure. My first experience, I did like 68 micrograms the first dose. And that was awesome. Like this deep relaxation of what felt like my Kundalini line. Like I remember releasing this big sigh from inside of me and just collapsing into the universe deeper than I had ever collapsed before, completely dissolved.
00:46:40
Speaker
and then getting to come back through this loving feeling and it was all love and great and stuff. It was awesome. And then I did another smaller dose after that that was filled with all these beautiful colors that I get that are very Bufo specific that I hear don't necessarily translate to synthetic.
00:47:02
Speaker
And it was also cool because I went home and I had to hold a mushroom ceremony for someone the next day. And I was like, will that be fine? And they were like, Oh yeah, it should be good. You just might have like a reactivation. And I was like, okay, what's a reactivation? And they were like, it's this, you know, for like 10 minutes, Bufo kind of kicks back in.
00:47:22
Speaker
And I was like, all right, 10 minutes. That's fine. No big deal. Well, I took mushrooms with my client and I was Bufo reactivated the entire time. And so that was really cool because there was this like depth to it. And instead of being mushrooms, everything was very Bufo esque, which was almost like a seven dimensional sitting with someone else.
00:47:43
Speaker
So much so that when his ceremony was over and he was sober, I was still fully kicked in. And so I took some more after he left and just really got to sit in it and play with it. So that's kind of my favorite thing now after Bufo is to take mushrooms and then sit in this much more extended period.
00:48:02
Speaker
That time, that last time where I got to do four different sittings, I got a chance to see what other people may experience where it's not all love and light and like dissolving and rebirthing. Instead, it can be, I have seen some of the terrifying edges of it now. Yeah, these substances can all get super dark, especially if you don't respect them. That's when they can really kick you in the ass. One time I had a really, really bad experience.
00:48:32
Speaker
was when I didn't respect the substance. It was a night where me, my fiance, and my friend, as I had mentioned before, were gonna get together. I've told this story a few times on the podcast, so I apologize for anybody who's sick of it, but we got together. We were all hanging out separately, actually. Me and my friend were hanging out at a bar. My fiance was hanging out at another bar with her friend. We all got back together. We weren't drunk or anything. We didn't get out of control. We were just kind of spending some time together with some friends.
00:49:00
Speaker
and we it was about nine o'clock and we started having this really deep conversation and this conversation lasted till about three o'clock in the morning um sober we didn't take the mushrooms and we had you know talked about traumas
00:49:17
Speaker
deep-seated emotional issues you know with each of our lives it was a very amazing conversation and what we didn't realize was that that itself that conversation was the psychedelic experience like that's what we needed for that night and we had already had it but because we felt so great and we and it was such a cathartic experience having that discussion we decided to just take the mushrooms anyway at three o'clock in the morning it was five grams
00:49:45
Speaker
And it was really insane. I remember I started to cry. I felt this darkness all over my being, and I started to cry. And I was telling myself, you've been here before, you know the ropes. Allow yourself to cry it out. Feel what the mushroom is presenting you, because this is supposed to teach you something. This is a lesson for you. Learn. You're in class.
00:50:12
Speaker
So I buried my face in the couch and I was just crying my eyes out. And in my visionary field, I saw like a shadow aura of myself. It was like a black shadow body with a purple, like sparkly aura around it. I'm not sure if that has any likes or significance cause I'm not really too well versed on that, but that's what I kind of saw myself as. And then like that being death appeared with his scythe.
00:50:41
Speaker
And just sliced me from bottom up and there was just like this slice in between and then what came out of it was like all of the sorrow and sadness of what felt like the entire universe. And I was just like drowning in sorrow and it was fucking horrible. It was so bad. Look over at my fiance and she had fallen asleep and then woke up to me crying.
00:51:04
Speaker
And she was confused and didn't know what was going on. I looked up at the ceiling and I saw these, which were kind of pretty, but kind of scary at the same time. They were like these geometric patterns that were made of electricity and they were just flowing through me and coming down on me. And, uh, I heard from, uh, the bedroom, uh, my friend's bedroom, which is right attached to his living room. He just, he went right in there. He was like, I'm, I need to go in there and just be in the dark by myself.
00:51:29
Speaker
So I heard in there from the bedroom, right as we were all having like a really tough time, my friend goes, I love you guys. And I just started like laughing and crying at the same time, because I knew that they were both going through the same thing I was. And it just it lasted until the daylight.
00:51:46
Speaker
We went upstairs to our apartment, which happens to be right next door to my friends. And we had just gotten my dog whose name is also Apollo. Um, he's, he's five now. Um, and we had just gotten him. He was a puppy and we came upstairs and there was just shit all over the floor.
00:52:04
Speaker
And we just fell deeper into that darkness, like seeing all the shit and he was like flipping out. And it was just, it was a really horrible experience from second one to the end of it. But I learned so much from that experience because sometimes it just, it takes a real kick in the ass to learn to respect the substance. Cause we were, we were cocky at that point in time. For some reason, we just, we felt cocky that night.
00:52:31
Speaker
Like nothing can touch us because the mushroom is, it's, it's nice to you for a while. You know, you have a few really great experiences. You gain this, the super confidence that's like, you're a bard of the mushroom and it won't hurt you. And then when you get cocky and you take too much or you disrespect it in some way, it puts you down. So I learned that the hard way.
00:52:53
Speaker
Yeah. And I think you make a great point about being, you know, the, some of the most challenging trips are the ones that we learn the most from. And I can relate that also my second time doing Bufo was really challenging for me and I struggled to surrender and I struggled to let go. And we did a bigger dose than all my first time. And I just whited out the entire time. And, you know, my, it was the only time my facilitator was actually kind of a little concerned for me because he saw me not, not letting go.
00:53:25
Speaker
And it just turned into, for me, this beautiful message of surrender. And it hadn't been a focus of my life until that point. And then it began to have this through way into all these other things, like going on my first trip to Peru. And I hadn't really planned a surrender. I was like looking at my whole tour schedule, just being like, okay, when can I work in between? When can I find this? Are we going to have internet here? And I was like, you've been planning this trip for like,
00:53:51
Speaker
nine months like you're not going to go away and surrender like get your shit together and I did and it turned into this magical magical trip but I'm interested and curious to talk more about yours with you like that sorrow that you opened up did you feel like it was sorrow from inside of you did you feel like it was gone after the trip
00:54:15
Speaker
Yeah, I did feel like it was gone after the trip. I felt like it was my sorrow, but it was also the collective sorrow of like all of the earth or something like that. It was, it felt like way bigger than what I was. I was like accessing something larger than myself in that way. But.
00:54:31
Speaker
Luckily i fully recovered there is no psychological repercussions or physical all of us actually are perfectly fine but what did follow me was an immense respect and fear.
00:54:47
Speaker
Um, and kind of an irrational feel, uh, an irrational fear in some ways, because, uh, there have been times where I've planned to take psychedelics where I've known that it's what I need to do at the time. And I've just said, you know what, tonight's not the night and I backed out.
00:55:04
Speaker
So my journey right now is I'm, I'm currently looking for that courage that I used to have before that nightmare experience. So, cause I used to have all the courage in the world. We were every weekend, we were jumping in five grams every weekend and really just going deep and, um, you know,
00:55:22
Speaker
filling ourselves with the love of the mystery. And it was just fantastic. But, uh, since then it's been few and far between a few times a year. Uh, and I feel like I'm hitting it pretty hard. Um, but I'm starting to try to increase the, the, the frequency at which I'm doing them now. Um, and since the last time I've actually, I haven't, I haven't taken five grams since that night. Um, generally now I'd go with four because four grams seems to be like a really comfortable and beautiful dose for me.
00:55:50
Speaker
Um, so I'm working my way back to the place I used to be almost. And I'm hoping that when I get there, because I'm so much more well-informed now and I'm so much more open to these experiences now, I think it'll be much better next time I hit that five gram dose again.
00:56:07
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. One thing I'd like to have in my toolkit is the knowledge that I can transform what's happening. I did a 9.5 gram dose a couple of weekends ago. Wow. It started with a whole rebirth that was so uncomfortable.
00:56:26
Speaker
And I was sitting on a foam roller so I was kind of like rocking back and forth and just I felt like a frog that was having other frogs come off of it and I just was sighing and yell sighing at the top of my lungs and my boyfriends in the corner laughing at me because he only did four grams.
00:56:46
Speaker
And as I'm sitting there and I'm like, wah, like somatically trying to release everything. And this is kind of where Hamilton and I go a little bit back and forth and that, you know, as my mentor, he's like, calm it down, make it a meditative state. The primary objective and the primary mastery is when you can meditate in it without the fidgeting, without the shaking, without the movement.
00:57:11
Speaker
the somatic practitioner in me goes, there's something really helpful in somatic releases. And especially when someone gets to this rebirth phase that you will experience if you take a heroic dose. Sometimes it's sticky and icky and
00:57:30
Speaker
You need to yell. You need to move. You need to stretch. You need to start listening. And I would say that became the first third of my journey that night. And then I hit the moment where it was all good.
00:57:50
Speaker
And then I could do something different. So then I got to work on healing my family lineage and my boyfriend's family and all of our friends and all these different things that I'd never done in that space before and got to learn and see and experience. But the first part was like learning how to transform how just incredibly fucked I felt.
00:58:13
Speaker
So do you have any advice for people like me or anybody who's listening who has this overwhelming sense of fear of psychedelics?
00:58:22
Speaker
Yeah, I would advise you to trust that you're going to get the lesson that you need and to equip yourself with at least a few tools that you know can transmute your experience. And what are those tools for you? Is it breath? You know, remembering to take deep belly breaths and relax and calm your state can be really helpful. Perhaps meditation is really helpful. Having a space in your head that you like to go that brings you a sense of peace and calm
00:58:53
Speaker
laughter is wildly transformative. Are you going to have anyone else around who can help bring that laughter for you? Because literally the instant you start laughing and mean it, everything changes. Dance is also another really powerful tool.
00:59:09
Speaker
Put on a song that's going to inspire you to get up and dance. I prefer music without words because that way the music can't steer you into a corner. It can't direct how your emotions feel based on the words. And so you get a chance to assign whatever feels right to you. So movement is a really powerful tool as well. So take that stagnant energy and transform it into something else. Definitely, definitely.
00:59:38
Speaker
So as we begin to approach an hour here, I want to be respectful of your time. Is there anything else that you want to get out to our listeners? Any other nuggets of wisdom or advice? Yeah. If you guys have been doing plant medicines and psychedelics, I am so excited that in the coming weeks, if not already, by the time this podcast comes out, I will have launched the sacred integration tribe.
01:00:03
Speaker
which is an online community bringing people together to integrate their plant medicine experiences. And so that will look like weekly live integration circles with me along with a guest host each month who will drop in on one of the lives and share their expertise as well as resources added monthly to give you tools and ways to navigate the experience and a whole community space to talk about what you've experienced, hear from others and share.
01:00:32
Speaker
And so I'm really excited to be bringing that out as well as structuring some of my group coaching programs to be released here in the near future. But yeah, I just, I love walking this journey with you and with everyone. And I'm so grateful that this is what we get to do. Yeah, it's amazing.
01:00:52
Speaker
I think that's a really good idea that you're putting together like this group integration thing. Um, cause we're missing that, I think in our society, you know, we isolate ourselves in our houses with our phones and we don't have this like group communion anymore. Um, and I think that's so important to psychedelics because people do them alone and I love doing them alone. Like it's great to go inside yourself. Um, but I think it's very important for us to commune with the people around us and to create those bonds.
01:01:21
Speaker
Yeah. And it's beautiful to share. And I think a lot of people who come to these experiences, especially who go to ayahuasca retreats or ceremonies, like your community, your friend group may not necessarily have the same values and they may not be doing the same thing.
01:01:37
Speaker
When people go home, then they're like, shit, I had this experience and now I have no one that I feel like I can talk to about it. And there's something so powerful about saying, hey, I showed up and I coughed a physical object out of my mouth during an ayahuasca ceremony. And this one else goes, oh yeah, I did too. And you're like, oh, I coughed up an object last time in January when I was with Hamilton, like a metallic object shot out of my mouth, which is a whole other story.
01:02:07
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like we have to talk about that a little bit before we go. Yeah. Um, so yeah, so I'm really excited to share the tribe with everyone and like, let's all come together. You know, we did the ceremonies together and now let's continue integrating together. That's great. Um, and where can people find you if they want to listen to your podcast, which I love. It's fantastic, by the way.
01:02:30
Speaker
Thank you. The Modern Hippie podcast is available on all podcast platforms. So Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google, they have their own podcasts, Amazon, as well as YouTube. It's big on YouTube. And then you can find me at Barrett Pearlman on Instagram and everything else is also available on BarrettPearlman.com.
01:02:53
Speaker
All of those links will be in the show description. So if you guys want to go there, please show her some support there. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me, Josh. This has been a pleasure.
01:04:12
Speaker
you