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69. Metaphysical Queries: Unveiling Reality's Mysteries II
50 Plays8 months ago
In this week's episode, Joe and I once again dive deep into our series of thought-provoking questions rooted in profound metaphysical themes. These discussions stretch our ability to articulate complex concepts, pushing the boundaries of our understanding. Along the way, we uncover areas of agreement and disagreement, as well as moments of mutual enrichment where our thoughts intersect. We thoroughly enjoy recording these episodes, and if you find them engaging, we invite you to explore more content in our episode catalog.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pursuit of Infinity, a podcast where we explore the depths of human consciousness and delve into the fascinating world of psychedelics. In this week's episode, Joe and I delve deeper into our series of questions centered around profound metaphysical themes. These discussions again push us to articulate concepts that are not only complex, but also challenge our ability to express them effectively.
00:00:24
Speaker
Throughout the episode, we uncover points of agreement and disagreement, as well as areas where our thoughts intersect and enhance each other's understanding. Recording these conversations is always a highlight for us, and if you find them engaging, we encourage you to explore our episode catalog for more episodes like it.
00:00:41
Speaker
But before we get to it, as always, you can visit our website, PursuitOfInfinity.com, where you can not only listen to the podcast through our integrated media player, but find all the places you can follow us as well. If you enjoy the podcast, please consider a sub, a five-star rating, or even a review. These things play a crucial role in extending the reach of our discussions as widely as possible.
Support and Follow Call-to-Action
00:01:05
Speaker
If you're an avid listener and you want to show us some extra support, you can become a patron at patreon.com slash pursuit of infinity. You'll get some great stuff in return. So head on over there for the details. Give us a follow on Instagram at pursuit of infinity pod to keep up with news, episode drops, memes, and general musings.
00:01:24
Speaker
Also below, you'll find links to our discord server and YouTube channel, which is at youtube.com slash at the pursuit of infinity. All of our episodes are always posted there and video format as well as an array of shorts that we've been putting together on a regular basis.
Metaphysical Questions
00:01:40
Speaker
Now with all that out of the way, thank you so much for listening and I hope you enjoy this week's episode.
00:02:00
Speaker
Hey everyone, welcome to pursuit of infinity. You're here with Joe and Josh today, and we are continuing our metaphysical questions list. Um, so we left off on number 20. Um, we finished number 20. We're going to skip number 21 because.
00:02:21
Speaker
Actually 21 and 22 because they're kind of dumb and we don't really like the questions and 23 is pretty cool. It's a good way to start it off. So I'll ask you first, Joe.
Is Time Real or an Illusion?
00:02:31
Speaker
Um, so number 23 is what is time? Ooh, it's a good one. Um, here I I'll have, I'll have a good one for this.
00:02:43
Speaker
Time is what eternity looks like when viewed through the prism of the finite mind. I love that. That sounds like a Rupert Spira quote or something. Yeah. So it's what eternity looks like when you're a human being, basically. When you're in your standard separate self state, we create time, basically.
00:03:14
Speaker
I like that. So the, that prism that you speak of is sort of the, the senses by which we measure the passing of the thing we call time. Right. It's like you could say that our perceptions, like our sight, um, our body, um, creates space and then our, our mind, our thoughts create time.
00:03:43
Speaker
Yeah, because time, I like when, when you say our thoughts create time because time can feel.
00:03:54
Speaker
different depending on what stimulus is essentially being perceived by the body. Like I like the, the classic one where like, you know, you can feel like in like an hour feels like five minutes if you're doing something that you enjoy. But if you put your hand on a hot stove for 30 seconds, it feels like an eternity. Yeah. So different perceptions of time.
00:04:21
Speaker
It almost just seems like time is defined by the perceiver and the stimuli that are being detected by the perceiver's senses. Yeah. And like you said, it's totally relative. I mean, and this is like exemplified on psychedelics, especially, it's
00:04:43
Speaker
you know, you can experience time in a way that's impossible. I mean, in a peak experience, you can kind of even watch it fall apart and have the experience of the eternal now, or just throughout the trip, you could have like,
00:04:58
Speaker
You know, I know you've talked about this, that this has happened to you. I know it's happened to me. You'll have just this insane experience where it just feels like you've went through battle. You went through like an entire lifetime and it was like two minutes.
00:05:13
Speaker
It just, it doesn't compute, but your experience, it wasn't that it was just two
Experiencing Time Differently
00:05:20
Speaker
minutes. It's like time is relative, like you said, to the perceiver. So to you, the experiencer in that moment, it wasn't what we call two minutes. It was, you know, an experience that like transcended time.
00:05:36
Speaker
And I think also what's worth noting and what is interesting is that on a certain level though, time is real because
00:05:46
Speaker
you know, when you describe or when I talk about any psychedelic experience where I've gone through that where you know, there's been there was one time specifically that I remember that really sticks out where I look down at my phone because I like to whenever I have a psychedelic experience, I like to put my timer on just because it
00:06:07
Speaker
It just for me it's good to know at some points during the experience how long it's been or you know how long it's going to be until this stage or when it's over or whatever and there was one time where
00:06:20
Speaker
It was 45 minutes in and I looked down at the phone and I saw 45 minutes and then I set it down and I proceeded to have an experience of absolute eternity where it felt as if I had experienced like a thousand years of time. I went into this timeless dimension where I was spiraling into insanity and I was experiencing like the oneness of all things and it was really, really quite profound.
00:06:49
Speaker
Um, and I came out of that experience and I was like, wow, I was like, wow, that was really, really intense. It was so rough. I was like, man, thank God that that was so long and this trip is almost over. And I looked down on my phone and it said 48 minutes.
00:07:05
Speaker
It was three minutes, and I thought, oh, I haven't even approached the end. I haven't even approached the strongest point of this experience yet. And it was just incredible.
00:07:21
Speaker
on that level on the the level of like the dimensionality of consciousness or like whatever that might mean. Whatever how however we want to describe that time isn't anything. But
00:07:36
Speaker
And this, again, I, this, this list of questions seems to always do this, which is kind of a good thing. Like these questions sort of like blur together. So the number 24 is, is time real or is time an illusion? So I'll sort of work my way into that question, which is yes, it is an illusion on the level of like the dimensionality of consciousness, like I said, or however you want to describe that.
00:08:00
Speaker
But it's also real because my phone was keeping track of the real time. There was 45 minutes to 48 minutes and there is a truth to that linearity. Yeah, I would say, I mean, you could say it's real. I think time is real in the sense of, you know, it's a construction. It's clearly real as something that we use as human beings.
00:08:28
Speaker
But it's not real in the sense that it doesn't, what you'd say, like physically exist. There's no experience of time ever because time, it basically means that there's a past and a future.
00:08:44
Speaker
And you can try as hard as you want, but you can't step into the past or future and no human being ever could. And let's say even if they did, they would still be in the present now. So there's never ever been an experience of time. There's
Time, Change, and Deep Sleep
00:09:00
Speaker
only ever been the experience of now. So based off of your experience, if you erase all of your constructions you have as a human being, everything that you, you know, have been taught and conditioned to believe,
00:09:14
Speaker
Time is something, just imagine a world that time wasn't ever created as a system. We would still have congruency in our experience, but you never actually experience time. I think it's just so deeply ingrained into us as human beings that we think that time is a true thing that works in a linear fashion that actually exists.
00:09:39
Speaker
But I think what it is is the finite mind creating it. Like Donald Hoffman, like the headset. We're wearing the human headset. One of the features of the headset is the appearance of time or the belief in time. Time is only really a thought. It's not an experience. It's not something you can touch or, you know. So it's an appearance.
00:10:05
Speaker
And interestingly enough, something that nobody ever talks about is that we experience a timelessness every night when we fall into deep sleep. When you fall into deep sleep, bye-bye, there goes your separate self. There goes the finite mind. Nothing is there except you being, you peace. That's all that's there.
00:10:28
Speaker
And when, you know, when the headset is removed, there is no time. That's why it's impossible. There's no objects. That's why when you wake up, it's like, Oh, was that fast or short? It felt like a moment, but it wasn't a moment. It was just timelessness. And when the finite mind, let's say, is created upon waking up, when the activity of consciousness turns back into your mind,
00:10:54
Speaker
and you try to remember into the past of that deep sleep, you can't remember because there's no objects in sleep. There's nothing that you can grasp onto. It's pure subjectivity, pure being. Time needs an objective metric to exist.
00:11:14
Speaker
So I think that's something that's fascinating that I didn't really think of myself that much, but now I think about it a lot is when you fall asleep, you're going into eternity and it's pure peace and bliss. It's amazing. That's why when you have a hard day and like, oh, I just want to go to sleep.
00:11:34
Speaker
You lay down, you might have some dreams where time is also distorted, but then it fades away even further into the deep sleep where all is gone and it's just you.
00:11:47
Speaker
See, you are aware, you are there. It's just that when the finite mind is back in action, you can't grab onto it because there's nothing there to reference. So as soon as our minds are back in action, it can't comprehend or grasp what had happened during deep sleep. I think it's interesting that
00:12:12
Speaker
The fact that you can have an experience of eternity is what brings into question the validity of time itself
Time: Real or Illusory Paradox
00:12:20
Speaker
because before I ever had an experience of infinity or eternity or even before I contemplated the possibility
00:12:31
Speaker
of having an experience of eternity because as you said, you don't have to take a psychedelic, you don't have to be a master meditator, you can just go to sleep and observe the fact that you're having an experience of eternity while you're sleeping.
00:12:46
Speaker
And before I've ever thought deeply about that, I would have answered this question as 100% time is real. But now when I think about it, again, this is one of these paradoxes. Time to me is an absolute paradox because on one plane of existence, it is 100% real because it is measurable. I believe the physical plane of reality is real to a degree. But then if you sort of.
00:13:16
Speaker
Allow your mind to think more deeply about what it means to be the physical plane and. Sort of the context in which it exists to begin with, then you can start to play with the idea that time is actually an illusion or that time is not real, but. To me, like my answer to this question is always yes and no, it's one of those ultimate paradoxes.
00:13:39
Speaker
See, I think experience is king. It has to be. It has to be. You know, if it's not experienced, I say it is real in the sense of, let's say it's an illusion because an illusion is real. So illusion is just something that it's not what it appears to be, but it's still real. Like we could say this is all an illusion to an extent, but it doesn't mean it's not real. It's just not what it appears to be.
00:14:09
Speaker
So I think time – I would even probably go a little further than illusion and just say it doesn't exist other than a thought because any time – for time to exist, it just requires a present thought. So for past or future to exist at all…
00:14:28
Speaker
All it is is the present thought. So you can't step into either. I don't think, and like I said, it's not like a linear line that moves forward. It's not like eternity. You know this as well. It's not like an ever-expanding amount of time. It's just the eternal now. So it's like...
00:14:51
Speaker
time is, it's very, I think would be unique to this state. And it's just one mode of, of the headset that we put on. I think something interesting you said, you said experience is king, right? And you can experience illusions. So I think of like a magic eye.
00:15:15
Speaker
When I've had the experience of being able to see a magic eye, that's real. That is a real experience. I'm seeing whatever the shape is that it's supposed to be, that it's created as. And in that situation, I'm the experiencer of an illusion.
00:15:33
Speaker
So in the same way, in everyday waking life, all the time, we're just, we are experiencing the illusion of time. So in that sense, it is an illusion, but it is also real. But I don't think we are. I mean, well, this is a thing when I say time, time, it's basically the space in between two events.
00:15:56
Speaker
between, but there are no separate events. There's only now. So it's like, how many nows have you experienced in your whole life? There's only been one now. So we've only ever experienced one now. There's never been a space between now and later now or past now and then this now. So as far as experience,
00:16:22
Speaker
time isn't experienced, but time is experienced as a thought. Because like I said, time doesn't exist until you think about it. There's no time like just that exists until it enters our human minds. But I do agree to an extent that maybe you could call it an illusion. I think we've made this kind of clear how we feel about it, but it is illusory in the sense that
00:16:49
Speaker
it is relatively real. I would say it's not absolutely real as in we don't actually experience it, but you can sit there with the stopwatch and look at it in time for so many seconds, but it's still really just saying, now, now, now, now, now, now. It's one infinite now just happening, but I think, like I said, it's part of the headset, part of the dream.
00:17:15
Speaker
But that's something I really, time is like really awesome to think about. And especially, you know, psychedelics opened it up for me really. Because first it started with psychedelics just understanding the massive relativity when it comes to time. Like, how is this possible? How has it only been two minutes? It's like, it seems like it's been at least hours. And then, you know, when you have like even a further, harder peak experience, you're just like,
00:17:44
Speaker
This is all there. That's like the eternity when you're like, this is all it is. And, um, yes, psychedelics will force you into thinking about time, I think. Yeah. That's one of the first things you have to think about. And it's not as if it feels like an eternity or it feels like a certain, it is, it literally is. And it's the strangest thing.
00:18:10
Speaker
Yeah, man, it really makes you have to question reality. That's the thing I mentioned in the last podcast too, as long as you take your psychedelic experience seriously. Like I said before, we're talking, we're on the same page there and I say like experience is king.
00:18:27
Speaker
And so when we have a psychedelic experience, like you said, it actually was eternity or it was X amount of time or whatever. So I think, you know, people make the mistake of just like brushing it off like it was a drug experience. Like, whoa, how did that happen? That was crazy. And then forget about it. But no, the experience is what is true. It's what is real. That's what you are experiencing, which is the biggest proof I could say that you could have, you know? Yeah, I totally agree. Mm-hmm.
00:18:56
Speaker
Do you want to move on? Sure. Um, 25 could time be cyclic. I mean, Hmm, that's an interesting one. I mean, it depends on in which way you're measuring it because so cyclic means it's works within a cycle. Right. So.
00:19:22
Speaker
If you look at day to day, month to month, week to week, if we're assuming here that time is real, because this question, yeah, let's assume it.
Is Time Cyclic?
00:19:35
Speaker
Right. We'll talk about on the physical plane. Then I think it has to be cyclic because it is based on the sun and the sun is like the literal definition of cyclic, right?
00:19:47
Speaker
Right. That's fascinating just to think about that, how our time is based on our solar system. It's like we just follow objects and it creates our time. But yeah, it's cyclic even in the sense like what I thought of immediately was…
00:20:04
Speaker
you know, the theorized cycles of humanity through time, you know, like that there's cataclysms every, you know, 12,000 years or whatever the cycle is. And it seems like you said, because time is based on the moving of objects in space, that of course there are going to be cycles because the patterns repeat. So I would say like relatively speaking of time and with the headset on,
00:20:33
Speaker
giving that it were real, I think it has to be cyclic, right? Yeah, I agree. And I think it's cool you bring up the cycles of human civilization as well. It's almost like at every level, there's a type of cycle that can be observed in terms of time. You can look at the cycle of one minute. You can look at the cycle of one day.
00:20:59
Speaker
You know, the easiest one is one day because you see the sun rises and the sun sets. That's the easiest one to look at. But there's then the cycle of the seasons. There's cycles that are cycles upon cycles upon cycles as above. So below.
00:21:14
Speaker
And then the cycles of the objects within time, like everything is in that cycle of time. Like a butterfly has its own cycle or like all different animals. Like even if you take them as a collective, like there's a species I think of rabbit that was put into, I think it was Australia. I might be getting some of this wrong.
00:21:34
Speaker
But the basic idea is true. It was like an invasive species that was placed in this region. I believe it was Australia. And they would go through this cycle that they would like all die off like every seven years. And then they would, you know, there'd be like a couple left and then would build back up and then after seven years, they'd all die off again. It's just fascinating that everything has its own cycles.
00:22:00
Speaker
Yeah and like each individual's cycle if you look at a species like each individual species cycle is dependent upon a larger cycle that impacts its cycle and then that cycle it depends on because even if you look at the sun the sun's cycle is dependent upon you know the galaxy's cycle that galaxy's cycle is dependent upon the the cycle of the black hole
00:22:24
Speaker
that resides within the center of it. And then just again, as above so below, you can just go and you can extrapolate that idea all the way out and all the way in. Yeah. That's what I was thinking too. And you go in to the human body, even, you know, everything is working cyclic in the human body from our cells to everything just to get our organs working the whole body. Yeah. It's pretty, pretty fascinating to think about. It is. It's really quite amazing.
00:22:53
Speaker
Okay, number 26, can there be time without change? Uh, I would argue no, because kind of like going back to deep sleep, um, we'll talk about deep sleep as something that is in a sense just.
00:23:14
Speaker
with the best language we could have is like pure subjectivity. There's nothing objective in sleep, just your being.
Time and Change Without Movement
00:23:21
Speaker
So nothing is changing. Pure consciousness, your pure being, what you are, is the only thing in existence that's unchanging. It's just the activity of it that changes or the observations of us. But the thing in itself, when it's pure and by itself, is unchanging.
00:23:40
Speaker
And as I said, in deep sleep, that's the best example you can have of it. There's no time. And that's the only time there is something that's unchanging.
00:23:52
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. It feels like if I think the only thing that can exist with that is unchanging. I think we had this conversation with the last episode when I think the question was, can there be is change something that exists or something? You know, we essentially said that everything is always changing, but because everything is always changing and that's always the way it's been, is that really true change?
00:24:22
Speaker
The answer to that is no, I think. Um, if you look into like hermetic wisdom and the Caballon, their description of time would reside within what they call the all and the all is everything. It's.
00:24:39
Speaker
all things it's it's unchanging because you can never add something to the all you can never subtract subtract something from the all because that would mean that there'd be something that exists outside of the all and the all is the all so the always forever unchanging and forever unknowable and
00:24:59
Speaker
The things like time and change exist vibrationally within the all according to the laws that, you know, the hermetics lay out, which is another, another conversation. Um, but I think on one level, there cannot be time without change. But again, this is another one of these paradoxes, you know, but you have to look, you have to look within the realm of, you know, what we can observe to say that.
00:25:27
Speaker
Right. I think it's based on the perspective. Like you said, if you're looking from the perspective of the all, then I would say that there – well, there is no time and there is no change because it's all maintaining its changeness. But yeah, I think – I mean, I'm good on that one if you are. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Okay. This is fun.
00:25:54
Speaker
Uh, is space real or an illusion? Space. I think it means like space here. I'm assuming I was thinking it meant space as in like there out there, but it's all the same thing. Really. The only separation between this space and that space is like atmospheric composition or something.
00:26:19
Speaker
But it's still the same space, really. Yeah, it's still the same space. Exactly. It's just a way that we differentiate. Can I breathe here? Can I breathe there? Like, that's the difference. Space. I think that on the physical plane, space must be real because it is the way that we differentiate between physical objects. So again, one of these paradoxes where
00:26:44
Speaker
You know, if we're going to talk about this physical plane that we exist on and that our five senses sort of help us navigate through, then space is for sure real because if objects are real, then space must be real. But as you had said prior to this on one of the other questions, you said no objects are real either. And if we are going to talk about objects as creations of our consciousness, then space wouldn't be real.
00:27:14
Speaker
Yeah, I would say that space is an illusion, same as with time, go figure, as in it is real, but it's not what we believe it to be, where basically you could say this for all things, objects, time, or whatever, space is just an activity of consciousness, an appearance.
00:27:38
Speaker
I mentioned this kind of before, I think with the headset of the human being, space is what is, it's the result of perceiving of our five senses. Whereas like I said, time was the result of thinking, thought, the mind. And here's the thing, this is like, I'll see if you kind of get what I'm saying here, which is weird to try to think about it this way.
00:28:09
Speaker
This might be a better way to describe it. So like, let's say you hear something fall across the room. You hear it fall. And like your mind, your mind immediately says like, oh, that noise was over there. But really, in your own experience, where does the noise happen?
00:28:30
Speaker
Well, if you're asking the question, I would say the noise happens within the ear. Because the sound originates in the ear. Sure, like close your eyes and forget about ears. Forget about anything. The point is, no matter how far away in space like a noise is, the experience is always here.
00:28:50
Speaker
And you can even say that with sight. You can say that like it's kind of sounds kooky and weird to think about, but all of it is here. You understand what I'm saying? It's an appearance, but you could imagine if it was like a 2D screen or it's just all appearing right exactly here.
00:29:09
Speaker
So I think you could look at it like that, like it's all one space.
Is Space Real or an Illusion?
00:29:13
Speaker
We just said that. I mean, the space that's here is the same space that's all the way on the other side of the galaxy. But I think through the human lens, I think it kind of projects the space. But really, underneath it all, as we kind of been saying, is just the consciousness, which is
00:29:33
Speaker
without dimension. So put on the headset of the mind and it creates the three-dimensional world. We just happen to be in a state where we are a being where we can perceive three dimensions.
00:29:48
Speaker
It doesn't mean that is what is there is actually three dimensions. So if we were like a higher dimensional, four dimensional creature, we would be observing this in four dimensions, but it's still the same quote unquote space or the same consciousness that it's happening in.
00:30:04
Speaker
So, like, yeah, that's why we, you know, we see the world through our five senses. But if we had a sixth sense, it would suddenly appear in the world, you know? So it's like the limitations of our headset. I think space is one of those, like, two of the fundamental things on the headset is like, well, perceiving, which is like the five senses, and then mind. And right under mind, you have like, next fundamental is time, and right under perceiving, you have space.
00:30:34
Speaker
So based off of those two things that we get the others. Yeah. And if you had a fourth sense, like only four senses, then say you could get rid of a complete, like say you got rid of sound completely. Like that entire dimension of reality would be gone for you. Yeah. So you can think of it as adding a sense or you could think of it as taking away a sense and you can sort of get to the same conclusion both ways.
00:31:02
Speaker
Right. Like if we didn't have hearing or we couldn't, if there took away our hearing, there would be no sound. We would be like with our scientific instruments, like viewing like the vibrations happening or like, what is that? What is the effect? You know, we'd still be able to view the vibration with our scientific instruments or even feel the vibration.
00:31:24
Speaker
But it wouldn't exist in the world. Our world would be soundless. And as a materialist, that's what we do. We project that onto reality, onto the world. So we think the world is that way rather than just the way that our mind experiences it.
00:31:43
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good point. And we put ourselves in a box. And the besides of that box are the perceptions and our senses that we do have. Because as you say, you know that we can still measure and see those things the same way that we can measure gravitational waves and all kinds of stuff outside of our our perceptions, we have been able to through our intellect create tools that allow us to
00:32:09
Speaker
Uh, detect things that are outside of our, you know, dimensional reality, what we consider to be physical reality based off of our senses. And that to me sort of implicates the fact that it's possible that there could be a sixth sense out there that we just don't really have the power to, or the, maybe we just don't have the biology to achieve. Yeah. That's a, that's fascinating to think about that. Like, cause you know, a lot of these things that we find mysterious.
00:32:40
Speaker
Like maybe we just don't have the proper sensory organ or the proper, you know, object of like perceiving it. So like.
00:32:50
Speaker
Maybe dark matter to a bat is like, no, that's easy. It makes all the sense in the world. That's how I do this. It's a wild example. Depending on what type of senses you have, it changes the entire experience. Maybe some of the things, like you said, that we don't quite understand the purpose of has an obvious purpose for a different type of entity.
00:33:18
Speaker
Yeah, because I mean, you can just look no further than the dogmas within each scientific paradigm. They'll tell you that their particular piece of science is king. Biology will tell you that biology is the ultimate science. Physics will tell you that physics is the ultimate science. Each of these things limit themselves to the box in which they're stuck in. But that's not really, I mean, it's not the fault of the biologist or the physicist. It's just the way that things happen.
00:33:47
Speaker
Yeah, it makes sense, right? I mean, if you're going to like a mathematician will say that reality is mathematical or like it's made of an algorithm with numbers or something. It makes total sense that if you put all of your mind into something, that's what's going to reflect back at you too.
00:34:06
Speaker
I mean, we kind of do it too, you know, with the psychedelically minded people, we say, oh, reality is fractal or reality is spirit or something, you know, we do it. Everyone does it. It's the human problem. You know, we're unable to see things as a whole. We can only see small slices of reality and then we can sort of extrapolate our ideas based off of that. But, you know, it is what it is. We all have to work together, in my opinion, to figure this whole thing out.
00:34:35
Speaker
Well, that's why I think the only way to do it is to discard all the relative concepts because like we've just explained, like any concept that you grab onto, you can fall into that rabbit hole and then believe that to be like the fundamental aspect. So try to discard them all and then go directly just to your own experience minus all your concepts, all your thoughts, just and I think that's the best closest way you can get to it.
00:35:06
Speaker
Especially with this list of questions because, uh, it's metaphysics folks. So do you want to move on? Sure. Um, was that my turn to read? I think it's my turn to read. Okay. Uh, so number 28 is, is space itself an entity or is it reducible to spatial relations between objects and events?
00:35:29
Speaker
Okay, well, I think this is kind of maybe what we're talking about, where it's not reducible. So like, given that space is real, I might correct me if maybe I'm giving a different angle to this, but space is one totality. I mean, there's no, you can't reduce it into pieces. The same space that I'm in is the same space that surrounds Pluto or, um,
00:35:57
Speaker
Yeah, we can't reduce the space. I mean, we see walls, but that doesn't change the space. The space has to be one for there to be walls within that space. The wall doesn't get rid of the space. The wall is after the space. It's placed inside the one space.
00:36:19
Speaker
Is that what I don't know if that's what it was really asking, but I mean, it's it's an interesting question.
Nature of Space: Entity or Relations?
00:36:25
Speaker
So to me, space can be an entity, but it can also be reducible to spatial relations between objects and events. I think what it's saying is like is space.
00:36:37
Speaker
something that exists outside of just the space between things like we observe the space between things, like think about, you know, the space between every planet and every galaxy, like is space just that is it some kind of emptiness that just exists as a placeholder for objects to exist within or is space some sort of a force or an entity that has its own function or its own mind even and
00:37:06
Speaker
That to me is a very, very interesting way to think about space. Is it an entity itself? Because you can make the argument that as we had sort of approached in the last episode, anything can be considered an entity, a human can be considered an entity, a God can be an entity, a business can be an entity, a conglomerate of people, anything can be considered an entity. So I think that
00:37:33
Speaker
the sun. Yeah, I mean, I think this I think space is both I think space is an entity, an entity by way of its function within the totality of what this reality is. But I think it's also reducible to spatial relations, because that's the way that it manifests itself within the physical reality, like it's its function manifests itself as the space between things holding things into place.
00:37:59
Speaker
Yeah, I think that we create the illusion of the spatial relations. But as I was saying, which I think you'd agree with, that it is actually just one space.
00:38:10
Speaker
But as human beings, and for purposes of convention, it's conventional for language to say, okay, well, this is a different space than that space. But in actuality, you get rid of the relative nature of that. You would look at the universe as a whole. It is one space with objects within that space, and it can't be cut up. It's all one.
00:38:36
Speaker
But I find it interesting, like you said, if space were a sentient entity, which I would say that maybe not inherently, but depending on your state, if you have the eyes to see it,
00:38:58
Speaker
I think it can be. I would think that you could take ayahuasca or any type of heavy psychedelic. You could probably have the experience of a personality of the space. You can actually. You feel that, but maybe you don't even look at it that way.
00:39:18
Speaker
I think it depends on if you have the eyes to see it really, but I wouldn't say at space at all times, maybe it doesn't at all times, but sometimes if you have a psychedelic experience and then you feel a communication with the space or a personality or something with all of it, then that is real. It's not any less real than this, not any less real than your dreams, your deep sleep. It's all real.
00:39:45
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I could see it. You know, there's like in the shamanic cultures, they attribute like spirit to everything. Not just spirit, capital S, which includes all things, but each thing has like its own spirit. And if it's conceivable as a thing, then it has a quote unquote spirit to it. So I could definitely see how you'd say that for sure. And, you know, they would like shamanic rituals and, you know,
00:40:14
Speaker
Like you said, they would give like lowercase S spirit to anything. Things that like a regular person would be like, that's insane. Like the wind, the weather, the trees, like, but it was totally real to them because they had the eyes to see it.
00:40:32
Speaker
That's why I think relativity between our experiences as humans is important to recognize, especially when you're trying to connect with somebody to recognize that what is real to them isn't often just a wacky thought. It might not be that they're misled. It just might be that they have the eyes to see it and you don't. I like that. Figuratively when I say that, yeah. Yeah, I like that. You good with that one?
00:41:01
Speaker
Yeah, I'm good with that one. Okay. 29. What are the laws of nature? What are laws of nature? What are laws of nature? What are they in general? Sorry, it's really small. I'm trying to read it. Laws of nature are the set ways in which life survives, really.
00:41:32
Speaker
We want to talk about nature as in the nature of the biosphere. That's the way I'm right. You can say the nature of reality, the nature of anything. But what I'm sort of gearing my answer toward is nature as in this.
00:41:49
Speaker
this the natural world um the biosphere and to me yeah i mean the laws of nature on a broad like a broad scale are simply the ways in which and these are set ways in which life survives i agree i would also say laws
Laws of Nature and Manipulation
00:42:10
Speaker
of nature are
00:42:13
Speaker
things that cannot be changed or manipulated by a finite mind, by like an entity, is something that transcends our free will or our need to try to, like we say, gravity, stuff like that. But you know, it's interesting because, you know, what if
00:42:35
Speaker
Because a lot of things that we think are laws of nature, I guess it still would be. I was going to say, if we develop some technology that can alter gravity, it still maintains as a law of nature. So maybe let me change. You can manipulate the laws, but they are still constants without your manipulation at hand.
00:42:55
Speaker
So for Earth, rain is a law of nature. There's a lot of things that happen on this planet that I consider laws of the planet, that it's just a natural thing that happens. But we might be able to manipulate some of that stuff. We can seed clouds and do stuff like that, but it's still a law of nature. So even if we were to manipulate gravity, the gravity is still a law. It's what is at hand without our manipulation maybe.
00:43:25
Speaker
Yeah, I'll sort of discuss this to our as another hermetic rule as well. Their hermeticists teach that like the law are, as you said, like the things that govern the entities within reality, but
00:43:43
Speaker
It's you can manipulate and use the law so that the law isn't ruling you necessarily. You're not like you're not an effect of the cause of the law. You are sort of in control of the way that you interact with the law. I think that's that might be a good way of putting it. Yeah, that's kind of like when I second guess myself, I was kind of thinking along those lines.
00:44:11
Speaker
But yeah, I think the simplest is that they are constants, let's say. But I guess like as you were just saying that they can be manipulated, but that doesn't change the fact that they are laws.
00:44:24
Speaker
You can't just like get rid of them. You can't be like, well, I want that law to be gone, but this law can be better. You know, it's not as if you can do that, but you can sort of, yeah, yeah. Or at least tweak the way that you interact with them. Right. Yeah. Okay. I think I'm good on that one.
00:44:44
Speaker
Yeah, I think I am too. Number 32. This is another Hermetic thing. I'm sorry. I read the Caballon recently. What is causation? What is causation?
The Reality of Causation
00:45:00
Speaker
See, like my initial reaction is that there is no causation, but I know that's not what it wants me to say. Because basically the thing that I initially think about is the whole
00:45:13
Speaker
the time thing we were talking about. There's no actual causation, just the thought of causation. So anything that, you know, say something happens and you think of the cause, no, it's just something happening that's in the now. And then you give it the, or you remember by just thought the cause. But I would say that there is no actual causation unless it would be an illusion because it's a thought.
00:45:42
Speaker
That's so funny. Did you read number 33? No. Is causation real or an illusion? Let's talk about both of them. So for what is causation, I'll take a little bit of a different direction because the case can be made that every cause has an effect and every effect has a cause. So cause is the foundational level at whichever effect takes place.
00:46:09
Speaker
And whether or not that's real like that description of cause would be saying that cause is real So again, like this is a hermetic thing, you know that one of these laws with a capital L is that all all cause has effect and all effect has cause so I Think that's well, that's like inherent in the duality if you give one you have to give the other and I would say yeah like on
00:46:37
Speaker
like just your day-to-day experience not thinking of because I would say actually in your real day-to-day experience there is no cause but if you're thinking in the finite mind of causes that happen then
00:46:53
Speaker
It's funny because every effect is a cause also. Because as soon as the effect happens, it creates the same thing as a cause that can create another effect. So they're the same. So same with the beginning and end. That's an easier one to think about. As soon as the end happens, it's simultaneously a new beginning. So every end is beginning and every beginning is end. Every time something begins, it has to be the end of something else. And you could say the same with cause and effect, that it's a single unit of happening.
00:47:23
Speaker
Yes, yes. I like that. I like that. Good. I mean, yeah, I'm good with cause and effect, honestly. I mean, it was short, but I don't really have too much more to say on it. Right. So, 34 then? Yes. You want to do the, okay. Yeah, that's right. All right. Could a cause succeed its effect?
00:47:48
Speaker
just as you said, right? Well, well, it the the key word is its effect. And if you're going to say that every cause has a specific effect, then it would have to be if it's cyclical in nature, then the the cause that
00:48:07
Speaker
that causes the effect would not be the same effect that would lie after the cause of that effect, if that makes any sense. So I would say that, no, a cause cannot succeed its effect, but all causes do succeed an effect. I mean, that makes sense.
00:48:37
Speaker
I think I'd have to agree because could a cause exceed its effect? Yeah, I don't, I don't think so. Right. I don't know. Could it? Unless, unless you want to say that. Okay. Okay. Bear with me. So like, if the, have you ever heard how people say like, um,
00:49:08
Speaker
It's almost as if the effect influenced the cause, like the effect in the future is what influenced the cause to happen. So in that way, the effect, if you're looking at time in like a nonlinear way, then you could say that the effect
00:49:30
Speaker
came before the cause because it's like the Terrence McKenna ultimate attractor thing. It's not as if we're, yeah, it's not as if we are being propelled from behind towards something. It's as if this something is pulling us. Yeah. So if that something is the effect, I guess I could see it. I could see it acting in that way. Like if you really want to go deep,
00:49:56
Speaker
Yeah, as soon as you started on that, I thought Terrence McKenna. Yeah, I mean, it depends on how you look at it. It could be that. I mean, who's to say that we are causing the propulsion forward or there is just the transcendental object at the end of time pulling us? I mean, it is a very compelling thought that you can't disprove. So, I mean, to me, it's viable.
00:50:27
Speaker
So this next question, I think exactly what I said so we can run through these. Are you done with that last one? Yeah, I'm good on that one. Okay. Could a cause and its effect be simultaneous? Yeah, I mean, we just laid that out very eloquently, I think. So yeah, I think we did cover that one. Okay.
00:50:49
Speaker
So we're going to skip a few of these because they just keep going further and further into cause and causal laws.
Determinism vs. Free Will
00:50:56
Speaker
So, I mean, we've already pretty much beaten cause to, uh, to its core here. So I'll ask you, we're going to skip down to number 38, which is, is the world a deterministic one? Oh man, this is a hard question because.
00:51:16
Speaker
Every ounce of, like, my being and experience wants to say that, no, that it's free will. But I kind of think it actually is deterministic in a way. I think it's almost like a little bit of a paradox because all that exists is by nature willed to an unknown effect, I'd say.
00:51:45
Speaker
So existence is willed, but it is, as a human, as a finite mind, let's say it's one illusory whole that is working in conjunction. So it's deterministic as in the fact that it's all exactly how it has to be in the moment, but it's not deterministic in a way that says,
00:52:11
Speaker
We know the end already. It's moving to X. It's that in real time, it's knowing new things and moving like as a whole. You understand what I'm saying? Kind of hard for me to describe this one. But I would say that it's deterministic, but it's moving into the unknown at every moment. So it's not like determined in the future, but it's determined now to a new future.
00:52:42
Speaker
That might be stupid, but I don't really know how to describe it. I think I get it. It's like the deterministic part of the world is like maybe we can say the law, the law with a capital L, laws themselves kind of create an environment of determinism because we have to sort of enact our free will within a certain degree of law.
00:53:09
Speaker
But as you said, it's not as if the future is determined. I don't I don't like that notion because I just don't think it's it's right. It doesn't feel real. It feels like a cop out. You know, like I know the the Sam Harris argument is that, you know, am I picking up the glass of water because I'm choosing to drink it or am I picking it up because I'm thirsty? And I think it's both because, of course, like my thirst exists within the box of determinism of
00:53:39
Speaker
Like those laws, but I can also choose to lift it up and drink it when I'm not thirsty, right? It's like that person. Have you ever heard of the back when the Nintendo we came out? There was like a competition on the internet, which was like or on the radio, which is called they called it holds your we for a we and somebody drank so much water that they died so
00:54:02
Speaker
You can choose to do things that exist outside of the deterministic box in which we sort of always live. So there is that freewill portion, but there's also determinism within some of the actions of freewill. Yeah, I mean, because yeah, the way I was looking at it.
00:54:26
Speaker
as just reality as a whole with everything because it's easy. This is the way I look at it when I think of just like as a human being as an ego self.
00:54:39
Speaker
It's just way too hard to think about it objectively in a sense because I immediately think, of course not, I choose everything I do. But then if I zoom out and look at, try to step outside myself as a human being or just like disassociate and look at the whole thing as one, you know, one solid piece, it seems like everything is, it's connected. So it's like, it's moving as one.
00:55:09
Speaker
Regardless of one little person's thoughts or feelings, like maybe their little actions feel like it's their free will, this or that. But looking at it from above, I think that in a sense you could say it's determined, but the future is not determined. That's what I was trying to say. It's still can't get it out too well, but that's my view on it. Yeah. And I think I agree with that.
00:55:37
Speaker
Um, you ready for the next one? Yeah. What are persisting substances? Are they bundles of properties or properties plus substratum or dot, dot, dot? Hmm. What are persisting substances? Well.
00:56:01
Speaker
If you think of any substance, it seems that no substance persists without some sort of substratum, right? Whether or not they're bundles of properties, I don't really consider substances to be bundles of properties. I think that substances exist within.
00:56:22
Speaker
properties because certain substances like a substrate would have to have certain properties in order for a substance to arise from it. So I think they're intricately related. But I do think that it's like another way of saying cause and effect.
00:56:42
Speaker
You know, but when you're bringing substratum and substances into it, you are literally bringing it to the physical world. So in that way, there must be a substratum for any substance to exist. I think they're completely connected and they exist within whatever bundles of properties relate to the way that they grow or the way that they come into existence.
Identity and Change Over Time
00:57:10
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think just bundles of properties because I think properties are assigned in a sense. It doesn't – a property that we assign to something doesn't have to be inherent within it. Yeah, I think it's like up to the perceiver in that sense.
00:57:34
Speaker
It's like the easy thing to say is that what are persisting substances, they're just activities of consciousness. That's what I'd say they actually are, that any substance is actually like the knowing of it shining at you. Yeah, I like that.
00:58:01
Speaker
For some reason, my mind went directly, maybe it's because of the word substratum, my mind went directly to thinking about plants and how plants grow. In order for the substratum to grow the plant, there has to be a certain bundle of properties that exist within the organization or sequence of the plant growing.
00:58:27
Speaker
You know what I mean? That's the way that I took this question. It's kind of a strange one. Because yeah, I didn't really know what it's trying to get at, but that makes sense. And in that sense, yeah, I agree exactly with what you said. But yeah, a little bit of a weird question to me. I don't know. Yeah, I'm good on that one. You want to move on to 40?
00:58:54
Speaker
What constitutes identity over time? Okay. Identity over time. So what I'm saying, this is sort of meaning is not identity on top of time, like identity greater than time. I'm thinking of it as identity through time. Yes. Yeah. Identity over time. So what constitutes identity over time?
00:59:22
Speaker
actions, you know, another cause and effect type of question. Um, but it really, it depends on the identifier because identities definitely differ according to who's identifying whatever the thing is. Yeah, I think that's exactly it. What constitutes identity over time, I would say is the level of awareness of the identifier.
00:59:49
Speaker
So depending on how self-aware they are is going to determine their identity over time. My identity today is a lot different than it might have been five years ago. It's in a whole different lane. But I think, you know, it's kind of getting at maybe like kind of what you were saying, the actions that are taken, what your virtues are, that type of stuff.
01:00:18
Speaker
But I think the deepest sense is your level of awareness. And then you can shatter the ego. Because I would say if you are somebody who's very egotistical and very materialist and you have a destruction of the ego and a psychedelic trip, that's going to make you rethink your identity.
01:00:47
Speaker
The next day your identity is going to be different than it was the previous day. In terms of the awareness of the identifier, I think there are just two major things that can change the awareness of the identifier. That is the identifier changing its own awareness, and then the thing that's identifying changing the awareness of the identifier.
01:01:15
Speaker
Essentially, that's just what you said. You know, you can either change your own awareness as the identifier or you can identify something and the way that it moves, its preferences, its properties are going to change the way you identify it. So those to me are like the two things, the two ways to go about it. Yeah, that's good to me.
01:01:37
Speaker
All right, let's move on to number 41, which is, does the physical universe depend upon the existence of an immaterial creator?
Does the Universe Need a Creator?
01:01:48
Speaker
Ooh, that's a good one.
01:01:56
Speaker
I would say yes, but I think creator may not be the proper word. This is the thing. The way I'm getting at it is yes, but the thing that is the creator is prior to a creator. It is something that has no objective qualities, something that is
01:02:23
Speaker
impossible to describe so because it has no objective qualities but it's empty and it is what everything is made of and is what everything arrives in or arises in so I think it is immaterial and I what you would call God is what I'm saying but I don't think it's as simple as a creator because I don't think it's an entity or something that can be
01:02:50
Speaker
objectively explained, but I think the thing is the totality of existence. So it's prior to creator. I think that I'm going to pretty much agree with you and say it in a different way. I think the physical universe is not the same thing as like all of reality. I think the physical universe exists within something and you can call that existence the, an immaterial creator.
01:03:20
Speaker
And I like the word immaterial because I think it separates the word creator from like a quote unquote like a Sky Daddy as people that don't like religion call it. You know, like the anthropomorphized version of a creator God. I think the word immaterial separates creator from that notion. So I think the physical universe absolutely must depend on the existence of something that's outside of it because I do not feel like the physical universe is all of what reality is.
01:03:50
Speaker
Yeah, and I think you're right. The immaterial part is kind of, I think, lending a hand to what I was trying to say because it's not like an entity. But yeah, I think that not only does it have to – kind of what you just said that it is the creator of it, but it is that which everything is also within.
01:04:14
Speaker
And the physical universe is just one flavor of what could be done. I mean, just our headset alone, just the human experience. I think, you know, there can be all different kinds of universes. I mean, when you go to the DMT realm, is that a physical universe? Would you consider that a physical universe?
01:04:40
Speaker
That's a really good question. I think that's being researched as we speak. Right. And that's the thing, depending, are any of them actually physical or with the headset, do we just experience physicality because we experience thoughts, perceptions, and sensations?
01:05:01
Speaker
I don't really think the answer to this question changes if the DMT realm is or isn't a physical universe. I think it's still the same. Any universe, I think, needs to depend upon the existence of this, quote-unquote, immaterial creator. In order for a universe to exist, there has to be the awareness of it. The awareness of awareness is the creator, I guess you could say.
01:05:29
Speaker
But yeah, if there's no consciousness, there's nothing to say it's there. It's not like there's just material living on its own outside of any type of observer.
01:05:45
Speaker
And it's not like a physical universe can exist outside of some kind of container. I mean, container is a bad word for it because it's a physical word and it sort of has that connotation of material world, but container is the only word I can really come up with, with like that would be able to house the physical universe because the physical universe just, it's, it's not everything. It just isn't. I mean, just.
01:06:12
Speaker
Science is discovering this ancient wisdom has known this for thousands of years. The universe is not the whole thing and I think you could like I was saying you can't describe this thing and like you said container I'd say The best way you could describe that container is totally non-objective You could kind of this is the way I kind of think of it
01:06:37
Speaker
Think of when you were in deep sleep, which is the finite mind cannot actually go there, but just pure being. And then all like the physical universe is just that empty being colored with activity. I love that. And that empty being is what this is kind of referring to as an immaterial creator, I guess.
01:07:07
Speaker
See, that's an interesting way to look at it because you're almost looking at it as if like the immaterial creator is the perceiver or the thing that is interacting with consciousness as opposed to like some sort of something that exists physically outside of what we call like space. Yeah, I would say the immaterial creator is awareness. That's why everything you see, the most primary thing about anything you see
01:07:35
Speaker
is the knowing of it shining back at you. It's like if you are awareness, you are self-luminous in the fact that you are awareness but are also self-aware by nature, and then you kind of reflect onto everything, your knowingness and the knowingness bounces back at you. So it's all just awareness. But the empty awareness during sleep is existence before the coloring of
01:08:05
Speaker
that the finite mind gives us with a physical existence. Yeah, I love that perspective. I really do.
01:08:16
Speaker
Well, I think that we can call it for today. Um, I think the next time we have an episode where we go through these questions, we will be able to finish this list. And man, it's been, it's been cool. You know, as we said the last time, you know, this has been better than the, the philosophical questions. Um, they've been difficult. Some of them, I mean, we had to skip a bunch because a few of them were just far beyond our pay grade. Big words.
01:08:45
Speaker
yeah a lot of big words things that uh i just really couldn't wrap my head around um without really being entrenched in metaphysics as a profession or something right um but a lot of these are really great
01:08:57
Speaker
Yeah, very thought provoking. I thought that, yeah, this was definitely a good list. And so we have less than 20 more, I think. So yeah, that's going to be fun. And I'm just glancing down. I see what is consciousness. So so that's going to be a 15 minute answer. Yeah, because we didn't get into that yet. But that's the basis of all three. And that's a good one, too. Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be fun.