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228: The Politics of Trauma - Caroline Lloyd
91 Plays4 months ago
This episode refers to trauma (obviously) so listener caution is recommended.
Dr Caroline Lloyd is a GP with a multifaceted career. After graduating from Monash University she has worked in traditional general practice, women’s health, sexual health, cosmetic dermatology, hypnotherapy and bariatric surgery and has now found her passion in Mental Health. Completing her Masters in Counselling led to training in EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing) and she now specialises in the treatment of Trauma utilising EMDR. She really enjoys helping her clients become “unstuck” from their past traumas, facilitating their progress to a calmer, more connected and fulfilling life. Caroline works at Cabrini Women’s Mental Health Lisa Thurin Centre, in her own counselling private practice and in Bariatric Medicine.
In this show, hear from Caroline on:
1. What do you define as trauma and how can we know it's affecting us in a more profound way than we perhaps realise, especially over time?
2. How is complex trauma misdiagnosed in your experience and share the ways we can tackle this as a society?
3. You include EMDR Group therapy as an innovative way to resolve traumatic experiences in a more cost-effective, contained, private way. How can being in a group therapy environment assist us with trauma management?
4. Is trauma always about big events like a death or assault?
5. How have you used hypnotherapy in your practice?
6. Takeaway: What is your final message on The Politics of Trauma?
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Transcript
Introduction to The Politics of Everything
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the politics of everything. I'm Amber Danes, your host and podcast producer. This is a half hour of power podcast dropping every week where I unpack the politics of everything from money to motherhood, nutrition to narcissism, startups to secularism, the environment, quality and much, much more. Our guests are seasoned in the field of topic of their choice, even if you've not heard of them yet. This is a nonpartisan show. So while I love exploring varied views and get a buzz from a healthy debate of ideas, this is not a purely blue, white, green program. Please subscribe, tune in and enjoy the politics of everything.
Guest Introduction: Dr. Caroline Lloyd
00:00:45
Speaker
This episode refers to trauma, so listener caution is recommended. Dr. Caroline Lloyd is a GP with a multifaceted career. After graduating from Monash University, she worked in traditional general practice, women's health, sexual health, cosmetic dermatology, hypnotherapy, and barabatic surgery, and has now found her passion in mental health. Completing her master's in counseling led to training in EMDR, which I actually had to look this up. It was eye movement. desensitization, and reprocessing, and now she specializes in the treatment of trauma utilizing this process. She really enjoys helping her clients become unstuck from their past traumas, facilitating their progress to a calmer, more connected, and fulfilling life. Carolyn works at Canberry Women's Mental Health Lisa III Center in her own counseling practice and in barabatic medicine, and today the topic we're discussing is the politics of trauma, and I warmly welcome you to the show.
00:01:40
Speaker
Thank you so much, Amber. It's lovely to be with you.
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Dr. Lloyd's Background and Childhood Dreams
00:02:56
Speaker
Yes. So I asked this question of all my guests because I love to join the dots. What did you want to be as a kid? Did you think you'd work in this medical field or did you have different dreams and aspirations when you were a lot younger? Oh, what a lovely question. Well, when I was very little, I I wanted to be a hairdresser. So that was very different to what you're doing now. Yes. Yeah. Although communication is big with my own hairdresser. So that's something in common. That is true. That is true. But obviously, that's not where you ended up. and know You've obviously had um a very successful career in what what you do and very multifaceted, as we discussed in the
Understanding Trauma
00:03:34
Speaker
introduction. If we can get into today's topic, what do you define as trauma, just for everyone listening who might be sort of you know skirting around this?
00:03:42
Speaker
and How do we know that it's affecting us in a more profound way than we perhaps realize? and I'm thinking especially over time, like you know major life events that are clearly traumatic, that might be obvious to us, but sometimes I i imagine we hold on to trauma for longer periods and than the event itself. Oh, absolutely. So the effects of trauma can be very long lasting and quite insidious, but the actual definition of trauma is something that's kind of debated quite hotly in the field. If you go by the official definition of trauma, the DSM-5 is actually quite, which is the, that's the kind of diagnostic book for psychiatrists. It's quite restrictive. It just, but it restricts trauma to something that's life, a life threatening event, and it also includes sexual assault. So, so it it's it's, it is a very sort of restricted definition, but I like to talk to my clients about
00:04:36
Speaker
big T trauma and little t trauma and this is kind of a more a slightly more nuanced kind of interpretation of trauma. So big T trauma is what we normally think of as trauma like the car accidents or the assaults or you know something that's reported in the news so to speak. or war or police shootings, you know, that that sort of trauma. And little tea trauma is a little bit different to that. So big tea trauma is often something that happened to you.
00:05:08
Speaker
Little tea trauma is something that you missed out on or something something that you didn't get. So little tea trauma can be exclusion, for example. Like, for example, bullying in girls is very much about exclusion. It's not being part of the group, not being invited to things. And and whilst we can pass that off as just something that's, you know, everyone has that experience in their teenage years, that kind of bullying can definitely be trauma. or it can be more subtle than that. It can be, you know, parenting that you didn't receive when you were a kid. So, you know, the the recognition, the validation that you didn't get, the the communication that didn't happen, earn the support that wasn't there. So, you know, that can make even quite small events in childhood quite traumatic if people don't have
00:06:00
Speaker
the support that they need to kind of successfully make it through that event. so yeah That makes sense. How is complex trauma perhaps misdiagnosed in your experience? and Is there any ways that you think we can maybe tackle this better from a collective point of view? You're obviously an expert in the space, but you know I'm thinking about some of the you know recent guests that I've had on. We've talked about just making you know public awareness about issues, having conversations, making these topic something that is in our everyday vernacular can actually help raise awareness. What's your experience on this? Absolutely. so that oh Gosh, there's about five questions in that question. Yeah, there sure is. so Complex trauma. um so Complex PTSD is something that I work a lot with. like most of my inpatient clients at Cabrini, do probably have complex trauma or complex PTSD. so So that is trauma that happened either at an early age or was repeated and sort of unrelenting trauma, or trauma that included some sort of betrayal, like for example, trauma that's perpetrated by a caregiver. So a caregiver's role is supposed to be
00:07:12
Speaker
someone who looks after a child or looks after a person and then if they don't fulfill their role, if the if there is there's a lack of care or or there's perpetration of assault or that sort of thing. There's the added dimension of the child not being cared for or and not being protected and also hurt by someone that they are supposed to love and and rely on. So that's complex trauma. But you can also experience complex trauma as an adult. For example, you know, I've looked after a few people in the police force and
00:07:45
Speaker
Goodness me. they Probably because of the nature of their jobs, right? Like I couldn't imagine you could do a job like that or be in the sort of you know allied health space, like an ambulance your practitioner and actually not have some degree of trauma because of what you're seeing and experiencing every day. Yeah. They really are at the core face of everything bad that happens in our society. and yeah you know They see everyone in a state of shock and a state of terror. And yeah, so they deal with really dreadful stuff all the time. So yeah, I think you know if you're in that in that industry, it's hard to come out the other end of your career without having PTSD or CPTSD, which is the complex of PTSD.
00:08:27
Speaker
Absolutely.
Therapies for Trauma
00:08:28
Speaker
And we talked a little bit in the introduction about this this term, this EMDR group therapy that you utilize in your practice. How is it integrated? but And it seems to me quite an innovative way to resolve these traumatic experiences because you're in a more contained environment, but it's in a group, for example, which for some people might be very confronting. Yes. But what's your what's your take on this, I guess? Yes. So so EMDR is it can actually be quite a private experience. So we're working on the trauma, but the person is working sort of within themselves. So it's not like normal talk therapy. So you're not kind of
00:09:08
Speaker
explaining the event and telling your therapist about your reactions. So EMDR eye movement desensitization and reprocessing incorporates other stimulus that we sort of apply whilst the client is thinking about their experience. So that can happen online and it can happen in groups. So normal group therapy might be, you know, discussing how you're coping with, I don't know, their bereavement groups and that sort of thing. So normal group therapy is all about communication and what happens sort of within the group.
00:09:45
Speaker
But EMDR group therapy is very much it's kind of the opposite to that. So there's actually a rule in the group when we're doing EMDR group therapy that we don't talk about our particular trauma because we don't want to we don't want to give other people our trauma. We don't want to share our trauma because they'll experience vicarious trauma from that. So yes. Yeah, I hadn't thought about it like that, actually. But yeah, that does make sense. Yeah, especially if you are a bit vulnerable and you're already a little bit fragile than hearing about other people. experiences can be exceedingly difficult and um and can exacerbate things so we are very very careful not to further harm our clients in that way. So yeah in terms of how it works we get the grip all on on a zoom call and then we set up the memory and then we start the the alternative stimulation which is generally tapping or eye movements and people just kind of work quietly away
00:10:49
Speaker
at their own experience and then we kind of check in every 30 seconds to a minute type of thing. Okay. And how long would each session go for? Is it similar to when you would go to perhaps, you know, a psychologist, it's like an hour long, or is there a sort of a time limit on this and this process as a group? Yeah. So the groups that I'm setting up are two hours long and we do them weekly for six weeks. and so It's fairly intense, I imagine. like It probably is intense. You get through a lot in that time. Yes, you do. yes so Each two-hour session, we do some resourcing, which is sort of reminding people about their their positive qualities and their strengths and their abilities. so We do a little bit of that. We do a little bit of resourcing in terms of I like to use imagination, so we use imagination in that we think of um someone particularly kind or wise or protective so that we have that imaginative experience available to us while we're we're doing the processing.
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah, so each two-hour block, we do some resourcing, some good positive stuff, and then we do the the difficult in-depth trauma work, and then we finish off with some relaxation and sort of consolidation and feedback. so yeah Interesting. So just jam-packed two hours. Yeah, no, it sounds sounds like a lot. We have touched on this a little bit earlier in our conversation today, but we talked about, you talked about big T trauma and small T trauma. With the nuances of that, hes it do you deal with it differently ebi or is the impacts similar on people in terms of, you know I guess, how it might affect their life, like things like PTSD versus, I guess, you know maybe just a fear or phobia about certain things because of you know past experience? How?
00:12:38
Speaker
How do you navigate that? And are they interlinked as well? I'm just thinking most of us in our lives have had probably both at some point. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And if we have the positive resources, then we can cope with the trauma and sort of assimilate it and and learn something about ourselves that is not terrible. So in some ways, the problem with trauma is what we learn about ourselves from that event. So say, for example, if we learn, if we're in a car accident, so we're in a car accident, we're a little bit hurt, but we walk away that for some people will be intensely traumatic because they learn that I'm not safe or I'm in danger.
00:13:20
Speaker
And that learning about themselves is what kind of does the damage a bit further down the track. So they take that self view into every, everywhere they go, every situation they're in, every interaction they have, I'm not safe. i'm um And that might not be just in the car in a car situation. Is that what you're saying? They could just be at a social situation or kind of doing something quite different to that particular event. Exactly right. Yeah. yeah And it can escalate so people can you know just be, afraid of walking out the door because this cognition, this belief about themselves, I'm not safe and be very, very pervasive. yeah That's amazing. I never thought about like that. Hemotherapy is something we've also alluded to in into your in your bio when we discussed um you know who you are and what you do. How does this benefit the people you work with and is it something that you use universally or is it on a selective basis?
00:14:14
Speaker
Yeah. So I've sort of moved away a little bit from hypnotherapy just because I find that EMDR is much more effective. so But I do still use my skills in hypnotherapy in terms of relaxation. So that's often something that I'll do with my clients, either in preparation for EMDR, just so that they've got a tool, so that they know how to relax and that they they know how to kind of bring their mind into that easier sort of state, that more relaxed state, or after a session of EMDR just to make sure that they're okay to walk out the door and that they can sort of be contained again and they can be
00:14:52
Speaker
back on deck with normal life. So I'll often use it as a bit of a bookend. I rarely use it as a standalone therapy now. I used to use it a lot with eating disorders, but but I do find that EMDR is more effective in my practice. so Yeah, absolutely. And I guess is that what you're known for as well? Do you think that that's sort of when people come to you because it is something you're specialising in now, family people are sort of, you know, seeking you out in that way? Yes, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. this is Interesting. And so I guess, you know, if you were to sort of think about um your practice and and and overall, is this is there something for people perhaps who not quite sure even if they are suffering from trauma, are there ares certain ways in which they can identify? it Because I think sometimes people and myself would be included in this, you know, you you think you're OK, but you may not be OK. Does that make sense? Yeah. So I guess there's the classic symptoms of PTSD, like the hypervigilance, which means that just feeling on edge all the time and that that feeling of, oh my God, something's going to happen. And I have to be careful. I have to be aware. I'm on that sort of scared side of normal flashbacks, re-imaging the event. Like, you know, you might be
00:16:09
Speaker
walking along and then suddenly you realize that your your brain's actually just been reliving that bad event that happened to you. Nightmares and dreams, like if you're having nightmares about something, really that's a really good sign that you need to have some treatment for it because yeah that's one of the symptoms that goes away very quickly with a few sessions of EMDR. Yeah, right. Yeah, that would make sense. And that would be perhaps reoccurring nightmares about the situation. Is that? Yeah, okay. yeah Interesting. Yeah, so it's good for me to know that because I think sometimes you can easily just think that, as I said, you are okay and that you're not necessarily having to have to deal with it. Yeah.
00:16:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we we can all sort of put things in the closet, so to speak. So compartmentalise, I think is what I'm looking for. Yeah, to an extent. And then, you know, I use this um metaphor of like your hallway cupboard. i I don't know if you've got one, Amber, but we all have one. The one that's just got everything shoved in it, I think.
00:17:09
Speaker
So if we have one trauma, we can shove it in the hallway cupboard and then close the door and walk away from it. And if we have another, that'll fit in too, and we can fit a few big things in there. But at some stage, that hallway cupboard is going to get too full and even adding one more tennis ball to that cupboard will mean that you can't shut the door on it and yeah everything will just come tumbling out. And I often find that that's when people kind of come and seek help because they've kept the other traumas kind of packed away and in the cupboard out of sight.
00:17:44
Speaker
until one more little thing happens. And even that other thing may be quite small, but just on top of the trauma load that you've already got, it just makes everything intolerable. so Absolutely. Like the straw that broke the camel's back, kind of the saying that it's pretty old fashioned now, but um it's kind of the same sort of ah art idea, I guess. Changing tack a little bit, you obviously have a business and you're in the business world. Is there a particular app tool or hack, can't be a smartphone, that you're finding really useful in what you do? And it might be anything from organizing your calendar to automating some of your socials. And and I guess why why are you enjoying that at the moment? Because a lot of people listening are in the business world. Oh, this is a not a great question to ask me am because I'm not particularly tech savvy. My favorite
00:18:31
Speaker
tool in terms of tools of my trade are my, are my buzzies. So with the MDR, we use eye movements and we also use these buzzies that people hold in their hands and people just love them. You know, they're very, what are they tell us what they are. Cause I just, I've never seen that. They're about the size of a matchbox. ah um There's two of them and you hold one in each hand while you're doing the processing. But my clients have actually bought these for themselves just as a tool for regulating their emotions at home. They're really soothing. They just buzz from left to right in this nice kind of steady beat. And they're just really soothing. So sometimes if people find themselves to be a bit upset at home and they've got it a pair of the buzzies at home, they just turn them on and have a nice little
00:19:15
Speaker
Sit down with them, but so they're my favorite tools of the trade I guess you would call those really and what you do. Yes, that's right And what would be your biggest life lesson to date that you're happy to share and why has it been so important to you? Yes, so Many many years ago, and I can't remember the exact quote So I hope you'll forgive me for this But when I was in med school, I took a year off about halfway through after fourth year So I took a year off and I hadn't really been enjoying med school all that much and and I wanted to experience a bit more of life and so I took this year off and in the newspaper or somewhere I read this quote and I'm going to get the numbers wrong but it was something along the lines of every week we get offered three opportunities to change our lives
00:20:06
Speaker
And on average, people take that opportunity about once a year. And I read that quote and I went, oh, OK, this is my year. This is going to be the year that I take every opportunity. And um and it was actually like such a fortuitous time to read that very inspirational. ah Because from then on during my year off, I took every opportunity that I possibly could and had the most amazing year of my life. So, and I think that that's kind of stuck with me a little bit. Yeah, that's good though. It's good that you learned that early and then you can, I guess, keep doing it. That's right. Yeah. Amazing. Well, that's an answer I've never had before. So there you go. um ah Wonderful. How do you find your own version of success?
Defining Success and Healing
00:20:53
Speaker
my own version of success. So I think it's it's about doing something that you're really passionate about and that you that you derive great satisfaction from. And I'm talking really just in the in a business our career sort of sense at the moment, but I guess it could apply to you know families and and other sort of leisure pursuits as well. But you know I feel ah feel incredibly happy and lucky at the moment because I'm kind of addicted to my work. Yeah, that's great. Well, you're you're in your sweet spot. You're in your flow, as they as they sometimes call it. And just a final takeaway message for us today, Caroline, on the politics of trauma, which of course has been the topic throughout, that healing is possible.
00:21:41
Speaker
i love so Yeah, so we've we've our brains are really just amazing and and we can recover and we can feel better and we don't have to labour with with the weight of our trauma forever and the that therapy helps and EMDR is amazing and You know, your brain is incredible and and we can make these new neural connections and we can let go of things and and form new ways of thinking about ourselves and new ways of being in the world and it it is possible and everyone can do it. so
00:22:16
Speaker
ah That would be my take home message and that's what I would love everyone to know is that you can feel better if you're feeling in a bad place at the moment. You know you you can feel better. things There is hope, I guess. It's always good to know that. It's been great to chat to you today about such a big topic and if you want to connect further and find out a little bit more, we'll have some details from Caroline on our show notes. But until next time, please take care. Thanks so much for listening today. If you've enjoyed the politics of everything, I thrive on your feedback. So please add a short review and share the podcast with your network through Apple, Spotify, and all the usual suspects. I'm always on the hunt for new and diverse guests. So if you or someone you know has a fresh idea, you're busting to get out there, please email me at amber at amberdains.com and my crew will get back to you very soon.