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238: The Politics of Customer Service - Jaquie Scammell
70 Plays3 months ago
Customer service can make or break a brand in terms of its reputation and longevity. Today I am speaking with Jaquie Scammell is Australia’s leading expert in Customer Service, a sought-out speaker, author, Founder and CEO of ServiceQ: a business focused on helping organisations reimagine the future of service through mindsets and behaviours. Her work is based not just on theory but also 35 years of customer service experience translated to practical tools for individuals to take and apply. She is the author of Service Mindsets and multi-award-winning Service Habits 2nd Edition, and a regular blogger and media commentator. Today we are discussing The Politics of Customer Service.
Jaquie shares in this podcast:
1. What makes great customer service in 2024?
2. How can a human connection be made when say we using digital tools more and more?
3. The worst of customer service often comes down to leadership as well as culture – think of the Optus hacking crisis last year or the Woolworths CEO media interview where he walked out on a major TV interview. Is there some lessons for us to all do better?
4. How she sees the role or AI in customer service playing out in the future?
Connect further:
• Author Weblink: https://jaquiescammell.com/
• Book Weblink: https://5dservice.com.au/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaquiescammell/
• Instagram: www.instagram.com/jaquiescammellofficial/
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the politics of everything. I'm Amber Danes, your host and podcast producer. This is a half hour of power podcast dropping every week where I unpack the politics of everything from money to motherhood, nutrition to narcissism, startups to secularism, the environment, quality and much, much more.
00:00:22
Speaker
Our guests are seasoned in the field of topic of their choice, even if you've not heard of them yet. This is a nonpartisan show. So while I love exploring varied views and get a buzz from a healthy debate of ideas, this is not a purely blue, white, green program. Please subscribe, tune in and enjoy the politics of everything.
Meet Jackie Scammell
00:00:46
Speaker
Customer service can make or break a brand in terms of its reputation and its long longevity. Today, I'm speaking with Jackie Scammell, who's Australia's leading expert in customer service. She's a sought out speaker, an author, a founder, and CEO of ServiceQ, helping organizations reimagine the future of service through mindsets and behaviors. Her work is based not just on theory, but also 35 years of customer service experience translated to practical tools for individuals to take on and apply.
00:01:14
Speaker
She is the author of a book called Service Mindsets and a multi-award winning service habits, second education book and a regular blogger and media commentator. It's such a big topic and something that impacts us all. So I'm really excited to have her on the show discussing the politics of customer service. Welcome, Jackie. Thanks, Amber. Thanks for having me.
Podcast Production & Offers
00:01:34
Speaker
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00:01:59
Speaker
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00:02:20
Speaker
I have a special offer for you and I hopefully you can experience what I have with Zencaster. Go to zencaster dot.com.com.pl and use my VIP code, the politics of everything, all lowercase in one word, to get 30% off your first three months of Zencaster Professional. How good is that? I want you to have the same easy experiences I do for all my podcasting and content needs. It's time to share your story.
Career Choices: Customer Service vs. Arts
00:02:46
Speaker
Okay. Young Jackie, did you think you'd be in retail and customer service in that kind of world when you were younger? What did you dream of? And can you join the dots of your career for us? Yeah, definitely not. I wanted to be a performer. I was, I had visions of being on the stage, singing, dancing, acting, all of it, all of it, all of the above. And my, ah my school years reflected that, you know, I loved music. I love drama. I love dance, but something,
00:03:15
Speaker
grabbed my attention as a young teenager, sort of casually working at the local McDonald's up on the big north coast in New South Wales, Port Macquarie um for the Australian listeners. And I sort of got swept up into the world of work and service and teams and crazy humans coming into one of their cheeseburgers and Big Macs. And just, I got fascinated with human behavior. So. And how old were you at this time? 14, 14 years and nine months. Yeah. Yeah. So you got a job early. You're one of the people that actually got out there and did that. That's it. And the um the pivotal moment when I got accepted into university for performing arts at the end of year 12, the decision was to go to uni or to accept a full time management role at McDonald's. And I chose the Maccas role.
00:04:04
Speaker
Well, he's got a great reputation for building that idea of customer service, even if you know you don't want eat Big Macs every day. So I can see how that would be really useful.
Customer Service Evolution
00:04:15
Speaker
What in your mind makes really great customer service in the day and age of 2024? It's very different to sort of you know bygone eras. I'm thinking in department stores in the 50s and 60s where People used to be you know served in person. That's the only way to get your stuff done. Obviously, that's changed and evolved a bit. What do you think makes people's customer service experience sing in this day and age? Well, if we if we follow the theme of looking back and thinking about the
00:04:44
Speaker
the good old hay days of service, you know, the 80s and the 90s when things were less complex, the digital landscape wasn't as advanced as what it is now. You know, there was always this sense I felt back then that people were generous with their time. And service was something that was was very much the people, people aspired to deliver good service. And I think somewhere along the way over the last few decades and particularly in the last sort of five years or so, weve we've dimmed our light on this term. I mean, you think about the term customer service, it doesn't exactly evoke the same enthusiasm in my opinion that perhaps it once did. And you know we we mediocre service particularly in this country is rampant and very few brands stand out for their service. and
00:05:37
Speaker
Quite frankly, you, me, Amber, and and all customers, we've become quite accustomed to poor service. so And I think there's many, many reasons why this is the case, but one of the reasons is because we can get our problems solved, we can get our products and services from lots of different mediums now, from machines, from robots, from online services without even speaking to a human. and i think You know, too much of a good thing is is never good or too much of a thing is never good. and And there's a there's a little bit of an imbalance perhaps. And maybe maybe the book I've just released and this conversation is really about how do we bring that back and maybe look back to some of the great you know lessons and and primary ways of taking care of people in the 80s and the 90s in service environments and hold on to some of those techniques and approaches.
00:06:31
Speaker
Yeah, I agree and um we can all probably think of examples of that as well. How can sort of that idea of human connection be made in customer service?
Digital Tools vs. Human Interaction
00:06:40
Speaker
I think when we're using what you've alluded to some of those digital tools more and more often you've got to know even if you go on say an insurance company or you go in your bank.
00:06:48
Speaker
you know It's the idea now that you've got a bot you can ask a basic question to, it can't do anything complicated, it can't personalize information and they often then lead you to call a customer service line anyway in the end because they can't deal with the nuance. But that human connection seems to be removed and maybe we're being conditioned to do that because businesses are cutting costs and so forth. But when you do have a fabulous experience of human connection, you remember it maybe because those touch points are so rare. What's your view on that? Yeah, you're spot on.
00:07:18
Speaker
Look, I think that there's a time when we want to be served by technology because we're looking for those efficiencies, like an ATM versus a human behind a bank teller. But there are times when we want connection and we're seeking that human aspect. And so if we use a ah bank scenario, you know, sometimes there's a conversation that needs to be had with a human or we're seeking some validation or we want someone to hear our story because it's subjective or it's unique or different. and That can often be quite unconscious for us as customers too. We we don't even realize it, but at the time we think, actually, I just need a human. I want to speak to a human about this. Particularly if it's something where you've kind of been doing you know hitting walls with that, or it's something really urgent and time-sensitive, like you're going to miss a flight, or there's going to be some you know financial implication if you don't get to speak to someone. And I think sometimes it's really hard. Like they don't even, I find there's not even customer service numbers on anywhere anymore. It's sort of like a bit of a rabbit hole. And then you go, you write, you do fill in the form and they go, we'll get back to you within 24 hours. Well, that's not what I want. Yeah. And I think often it's the ordinary interactions of the day, like, you know, speaking with someone about something maybe mundane for the employee, like ah a bill inquiry or
00:08:37
Speaker
missing a flight or something that is quite ordinary for the employee but but for the customer that might have been a really significant moment and there's often emotion and meaning behind these ordinary interactions. Like I tried to ring a telco company a few weeks ago on the power of attorney for my mum and I help her out a lot because she's got some cognitive challenges and I just wanted to speak to a human being because this is an emotional topic for me and I couldn't get past step one to your point, Amber, because there was no phone number and my situation required all sorts of things, two factor authentication. It was going to her phone, not mine. Like it was a dis disaster, ah but I just wanted a human being to listen to my story and to help me. And I'm sure we can all relate to those scenarios.
Leadership and Culture in Service
00:09:26
Speaker
Absolutely. And I also think sometimes customer service, you know, there's that there's the cold face people, the people that might be, as you say, that, you know, the bank teller or the person you get on the phone that's like that at the help desk, um depending on what sort of provider it is. But the worst a customer service often comes down to the leadership as well as the culture. And I think because I work in the crisis and reputation or comms space, you know, are there's some great and terrible examples all at once of, you know, during the Optus Crisis a couple of years ago the CEO some of her stuff was quite evasive they couldn't get through no one was contacting their customers about quite life-and-death situations you know the Woolworth CEO recently did so many interviews where he literally walked out of a major TV interview and he was being asked questions that related to customers and price and things that really matter when that is his business and How can that be shifted and shaped better? Because often that cascades down into the experiments you might have at that coalface. Yeah, one word, humility. Service is all about humility. And I think when it comes to service leadership, it's about remembering that as leaders, we're there to serve our people and our customers. And, you know, it's not about self-serving. It's not about um
00:10:42
Speaker
you know, making a a statement of who's wrong and who's right at the end of the day. It's about, you know, transparency, owning up to what problems or what's happening and getting on with the job because the customer is is in pain or needing some solutions. And the the the problem with humility is often there's not a lot of recognition. We could be doing some great things behind the scenes. We could be leading in ways that is really admirable, but often there's not a lot of praise and recognition for those quiet, humble leaders. But actually, that's exactly what we need. You know, it's sort of like, you know, when you're in traffic and you let someone in front of you in and you've been waiting for ages to get around that roundabout and you let them in front of you and they don't give you the wave. Oh, yeah. but yeah it's It's like the idea of letting someone in front of you, even if they don't give you the wave.
00:11:33
Speaker
um and doing it because there's a willingness to serve, there's a willingness to do good and put the people who you're serving in the centre of decision making and communication. So I think when you when you tie this conversation back to service leadership, yeah, there's an opportunity for all leaders to really look at the balance of ego and humility in their daily actions and and conversations, and that's the core of service. What would be an example of that in action, do you think? i mean you know it's ah it's ah It's a good sentiment, I think we understand it, but you know particularly, i mean obviously, we're all human, right? Yes, you're having, as a customer, you might be having a bad day, but that person that you're speaking to, they might be going through a major health crisis or a family breakup or something. and so
00:12:18
Speaker
Yes, they're doing their job, but we're not just our job. So how do you bring humility into a situation so that people are happy with the resolution? You do your job, but there's a bit of a mutual understanding there. What what would you say? Yeah, it's this sort of balance of being the professional because you're in that moment providing a service for someone who's paying for it versus, you know, we none of us want to accept or tolerate, you know, abuse or poor behavior.
00:12:47
Speaker
But remembering that we are the professional in that moment and professionalism is, ah you know, and and with humility is about knowing how to use the right language, not blaming people, not providing excuses and reasons why, but just just, you know, using empathy statements like I understand your frustration. I can say this is really challenging for you. Let's get on with fixing the job.
00:13:12
Speaker
um or fixing the problem. And and it's it's about being what we call above the line and and showing behaviours with language and and you know soft skills in your actions that actually shows people where we are going to just we going to help you. And yeah we're going to help you in a way that makes you feel seen and heard and makes you feel that you're important, regardless of who's at fault here, um because your you're out you're our priority right now. So I think it's very tangible with things like the way we speak, our vocabulary and and our our actions in, you know are we are we leading or are we or are we playing you know the blame game?
00:13:51
Speaker
Yeah. And the other thing is even just sometimes, and I know I imagine in customer service, I've actually never worked in a call center, but you sometimes have a script. If something's so scripted that you just can tell that they're reading it and they're not really listening to you, I think being listened to sometimes, and even if someone like some of those examples you gave then has said to me when I've had a frustrating thing like my internet's down or whatever it might be, and I've called the service provider and I've just explained, oh gosh, I have a major proposal. I can't even send it. And having them just go,
00:14:20
Speaker
Oh, that sounds terrible. Let's try and make your day better and fix that quickly. Like just, you know, being a little bit engaged in the conversation and then getting on with it, of course. But I think that's just really made me my ah my kind of, I guess, antagonism has gone down, even if I've had frustrations for hours and, you know, they just happened to the first human who gets that call from me. Absolutely. And it's it's just seeing the human first before the problem or the result or the outcome and just maybe even slowing down a few beats and just really testing some assumptions that you're bringing into what might be an ordinary mundane scenario and remembering that on the other end of the phone in your example, Amber, there's someone that is really hurting right now. They're frustrated and this is a big deal for them. yeah So just slowing slowing the whole process down and seeing the human first.
AI and Human Wisdom in Service
00:15:11
Speaker
Technology is inevitable and things like generative AI and bots are big in customer service. I work with lots of clients who that's a core part of how they integrate everything from claims processing saying insurance through to day-to-day basic FAQs and things like that that people might be seeking.
00:15:29
Speaker
How do you see it playing out so that customer service remains, I guess, something that all generations and all people, especially those with disabilities, for example, can access? Because I think AI can be really good and helpful. It also can be challenging if it's not something you've you've grown up with or you feel comfortable with as well. How do you think that can kind of be balanced if you like? Yeah, and that's the key word balance. I think that The best way to approach this era that we're in now where AI is is is speeding ahead at you know at at lightning pace is to take a step back and think about where are the touch points where our customers are going to want AI slash technology touch points and where are they gonna want the human touch points? And you know I've heard it said that AI is as good as you know the average doctor where it can provide you know some sort of diagnosis or prescription
00:16:21
Speaker
or um AI is as good as the average lawyer where it can look at probability and risks. But we we need to remember that service is about more than average and it's about being better than average. And I don't want to live in a world of average. I want to live in a world where there's wow and there's outstanding and there's moments that make me feel special. And that's where the human piece comes in. So I think AI is brilliant for providing knowledge and information because of the synthesising process and the way it can you know find and access information very quickly. But humans, we bring wisdom and wisdom comes from experience. Wisdom comes from knowing yourself, knowing scenarios and situations, reading a room, reading a human being's face or their body language. and
00:17:12
Speaker
We've got to strike a balance where both can coexist. And I think that it's a really important time for individuals, leaders, people where they've got a responsibility with AI. Maybe they're providing a service with AI to take a step back and go, if I'm using humans in any of my touch points, then they better be really good at being human.
00:17:33
Speaker
because the AI stuff is is going to be really good at the knowledge, the processing and getting information to people quickly. Absolutely, no, I love that. Changing our conversation a little bit, what at the moment is your number one business tool or hack that you're loving and how's it helping you either in business or in your day-to-day life?
Analog Tools for Personal Growth
00:17:52
Speaker
Oh, see, I'm a bit analog, Amber. I have a pen and paper in front of me as we speak, making notes. But I actually live my life through hacks. Like just before we got on, I gave myself 60 minutes to finish ah a program for a client. So, you know, I put my timer on and give myself 60 minutes. Like that's like the tiny little hacks that I do throughout the day versus Evernote is a tool that I use all the time to collect my thoughts. um I might see an amazing scenario or a story out there between an employee and customer and I'll grab that story and just pop it in my Evernote on my phone and it's there for later. But yeah, I love a good old fashioned journal too. And so one of my business tools that I use every morning is I pull out my journal and my pen and I sit down before I start the day before I even turn the computer on. And I just think about what are my three non-negotiables today? What's the the three things that I want to achieve before
00:18:49
Speaker
you know, the work day through some curve balls and everybody else's importance becomes the priority. Yes. No, I get that. And I think that's a really important habit. All these things are habits really, aren't they? That really set up for our day and help us sort of win at life if you like. What's been your biggest life lesson to date and what has it taught you? I think my biggest life lesson is is the importance of letting things go. um And it's a daily practice, but it's probably the most powerful.
00:19:16
Speaker
And I say this because it's energy management closely connected to, yeah I guess, you know, moving on with things and seeing failure or problems as growth opportunities and learning opportunities. So, ah you know, I'm an entrepreneur, I own my own business, but before that I was in the corporate world and there were many times in a week where I would stuff up or get something wrong or, you know, i feel silly or embarrassed because I said something or did something and that over time, if if not managed well, and is if if I haven't got the ability to sort of let that go and and be compassionate towards myself, then it can create a lot of angst and stress within me. So um I find I'm a better person to be around and a lot lighter by building some muscle and fitness in letting things go, seeing the learning, making a little note, maybe in my journal, reflecting on it, and then getting getting on with it. Yeah, great. Love it. How do you find your own version of success these days?
00:20:14
Speaker
These days is the key point to that question because I would have defined it very differently four or five years ago. I think, you know, I i used to have a very strong external reference where where I would look outwardly and compare myself to others. So commit compare my business to others and that would be my my sort of compass for success. But these days, I think I've got a much stronger inner reference. And for me, the way I would define success is I've got various categories of life, if you like, that I look at. um My health, my my wealth, not just um financial wealth, but you know how I feel, my joy. I ah look at my relationships, my career, my my work, the work that I'm doing now with with with what we're discussing. And I just weigh up a little bit of a scorecard every now and then and go, how am I feeling about this? What evidence have I got of it? And just keep reflecting constantly.
00:21:10
Speaker
So for me at the moment, my my version of success is various forms, um but the way I keep checking it is is regularly. And I've got some accountability people that um I hang out with and people that are good mirrors as well, Amber, that sort of reflect back to me and go, you know what? I think you're being a bit hard on yourself or actually see how far you've come. So yeah. That's great. Excellent.
Societal Perspective on Customer Service
00:21:33
Speaker
And just a final takeaway message for everyone listening on the politics of customer service.
00:21:38
Speaker
I think customer service is a term that needs to be re re ah reimagined. And I'd encourage everyone who's listening to think about service as a function of society and one that we're all a part of and one that we can all create. And the truth is we're all serving each other in some shape or form. And it's a big part of what shapes our society and our our ethical compass and norms in how we we walk ah walk around and feel about our community and our our town. so Yeah, I encourage people to reimagine the term customer service and think about it just as service. Great. Awesome ideas in there. And of course, if you do want to find out more about Jackie or grab her book books, there's some details on the show notes. Until next time, do take care. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening today.
00:22:39
Speaker
you or someone you know has a fresh