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243: The Politics of Climate Action - Deborah Hart
53 Plays4 days ago
Meet Deborah Hart, a climate and environment-focused creative producer and writer based in Narrm (Melbourne). After 16 years working in development roles with leading Australian arts and culture organisations—as increasingly neoliberal government policies were forcing important public organisations to form ever-closer alliances with harmful industries—Deborah left her profession to devote more time to climate activism. Deborah founded LIVE (Locals Into Victoria’s Environment, 2006). She later co-founded CLIMARTE (2010) and ClimActs (2013) to harness the power of creative arts and ‘performative’ action to highlight the causes and urgency of the Climate Emergency as well as the readily available and socially and ecologically sustainable solutions. Deborah is the author of ‘Guarding Eden: Champions of Climate Action’ (Allen & Unwin, 2015) which tells inspiring personal stories showing how and why highly destructive, polluting industries that built immense wealth and influence last century are now using that power recklessly to maintain ‘business as usual’ (aka protect their profits), and the inspiring actions ordinary citizens are taking to safeguard nature and humanity’s future. For her role in sustaining a vibrant creative community, in 2023 Deborah was honoured with the City of Yarra’s ‘Contributions to the Arts’ award.
Tune in to hear from Deborah on:
1. When did you become engaged with climate action in your adult life?
2. How have you used or elevated art in various forms to raise awareness of the issues the planet and humans face since 2010 when CLIMATE began?
3. How do you describe the role of politics and also business interest has played a role in delaying the big decisions needed for faster climate action and what needs to be done differently moving forward?
4. Are there any ways you believe our creative thinkers and makers become more engaged with climate action in a practical way that means we don’t just listen and agree but do more rather than be idealistic?
Connect further:
https://www.instagram.com/climarteaus/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborah-hart-1292a921/
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Transcript
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the politics of everything. I'm Amber Danes, your host and podcast producer. This is a half hour of power podcast dropping every week where I unpack the politics of everything from money to motherhood, nutrition to narcissism, startups to secularism, the environment, quality and much, much more.
00:00:22
Speaker
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00:00:46
Speaker
If I asked you about ways to tackle climate change, to create real action, would you think of art and creativity? I suggest not initially at least. Meet Deborah Hart, a climate environment focused creative producer and writer based in Naam, otherwise known as Melbourne. After 16 years working in development roles with leading Australian arts and cultural organizations as increasingly and near liberal government policies were forcing important public organizations to form ever close alliances with harmful industries, Deborah left her profession in order to devote more time to climate activism. Then she went on and founded Live, which stands for Locals into Victoria's Environment in 2006, and later co-founded Climb Art in 2010 and Climb Acts 2013 to harness the power of the creative arts and performative action to highlight the causes and urgency of the climate emergency, as well as the readily available and socially and ecologically sustainable solution. She's also an author of Guarding Eden, Champions of Climate Action,
00:01:44
Speaker
which she published in 2015, which tells inspiring personal stories showing how and why highly destructive political industries that built immense wealth and influence last century are now using that power recklessly to maintain business as usual, as in protecting their profits and the inspiring actions ordinary citizens are taking to safeguard nature and humanity's future. For her role in sustaining a vibrant creative community in 2023, Deborah was honored with the City of Yarra's contribution to the Arts Award, and I warmly welcome her to the politics of everything.
00:02:14
Speaker
Thank you so much, Amber. It's really great to be speaking with you and yeah having an opportunity to yeah discuss some very important and topics at the moment. Podcasting remotely can be challenging, but it doesn't have to be. Since day one of the politics of everything, I have relied on Zencast as all-in-one solution to make the process quick and painless, the way it should be for those of us who just love great content and want to get our ideas out into the world.
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00:03:38
Speaker
Absolutely. it's ah It's a big one, but I will start by asking you a question. I ask all my guests, what did you think you wanted to do when you were younger? did was Did you have a plan when you were maybe a teen or an early twenties adult? Did you go to uni? What was it kind of your, your career backstory? It's really funny thinking back on that because really I was more focused on what seemed to need doing and changing in the world. I was one of those young people who I was profoundly concerned by inequality and within and between nations. and From a very early age, we moved a lot. That's another story. but we yeah It was very evident to me that the world worked in ways that weren't
00:04:26
Speaker
really very democratic and we, you know, I lived in democratic countries, but they didn't seem, you know, people obviously were not equal, didn't have equal opportunities. and yes And I was disturbed by that, but I didn't quite know how I, you know, what role I would play in working with other people to change that. So I do look back and I i had no idea what I could be because I wasn't quite sure what a role like community organizer was back then.
00:04:56
Speaker
It's amazing. You obviously had that social awareness in you from, you know, from a young age. A lot of people don't necessarily think about others when they're thinking like, you know, when you're a kid, you think, oh, be, you know, it might be an artist or a dancer or an astronaut. You're not necessarily thinking about, I guess, the bigger picture, but obviously that's sort of been in the stars for you as well. When did you first become engaged or interested in this idea of climate action in your adult life? Do you remember a specific period of your life for a moment when you realized that you needed or wanted to make it something that you fought for it and was a priority in what you did? and Yes, there was this one complete moment. So I was working at the National Gallery of Victoria. I had a wonderful job. I absolutely
00:05:40
Speaker
loved working in the arts and I had been working in the arts for about 16 years by then and i I was always sort of signing petitions and things. i was um but I was aware of Greenpeace and I did some volunteering presenting and things. and then Basically, the Hazelwood power plant came up for – basically, it was set to have been closed by 2005, but instead, it was extended by another 35 years. and This was a plant that I knew very well because my father
00:06:15
Speaker
who had been orphaned and he was able to get a scholarship to go to university through the State Electricity Commission and he was on the design team for the Hazelwood Boilermaker.
00:06:28
Speaker
So I grew up understanding that this was an extremely dirty power plant that had you know paid it its costs many times over and should have been shut. And the fact that the neoliberal economic policies that had really come in in the kind of early 80s and sought to basically extract every single you know ounce of of material financial wealth, ignoring all of the other costs, was in severely influencing policy. So in 2005, basically the Victorian government, instead of closing it,
00:07:07
Speaker
They basically yeah gave this terrible plant an extension of 35 years. and There was some green saying, hang on, you know there's this thing called global warming and this is a really dirty power plant and it shouldn't be open and it shouldn't be in the hands of private.
00:07:26
Speaker
of a private company that is not going to maintain it properly and not going to look after its workers. But it basically sailed through Parliament. And yeah when I learned of that, I thought, oh my God, you know, the politicians, they just must not know. They just must not know what's going on. They must not know the science. And how do I get engaged with that? But also because I was very aware that as much as I loved my job and I loved working in the arts,
00:07:53
Speaker
increasingly the arts, like other important public institutions and our universities, were basically being becoming kind of arms of industry. and When I say that, I mean literally marketing arms of industries that were seeking to further embed themselves in um public life. and we We were kind of art washing, so as much as I thought I was... Oh, I haven't heard of that term before. Green washing, and I've heard of lots of other washing, but um that's interesting, isn't it? Even in an industry where you think, I think with the creative arts, and I had a career in in the creative arts as well as a curator for a period of my life, and I remember
00:08:37
Speaker
thinking this is where activism and stuff happens. But like you say, but everyone can be part of that problem, if you like, rather than just the solution. And Amber, that's probably why the arts are targeted too, because if you're wanting to silence any sort of criti criticism and you know, these leading public institutions, they're really important crucibles in our society. This is where we, as you say, this is where we ask important questions and interrogate ideas and put forward alternatives so when you force the arts to become reliant on the very industries that they really um should exist to critique, you know, that's a very effective strategy.
00:09:18
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And how have you used or elevated, I guess, the arts and creativity in various forms to raise awareness of the issues? I guess is the how question rather than a why question. So that, you know, things like obviously when you started your first yeah first organization, you know, some sort of 14 years ago, then you sort of evolved into something else. Like what's been that process, I guess, to actually make sure that you're relevant, but also being heard?
00:09:44
Speaker
I guess probably for similar reasons that you were drawn to the arts you know the arts. Art is our most powerful universal language and it is such a great way of getting under people's guards and helping people see things with new perspectives and you know new ideas and it can really shift shift things. and I see ah see the climate crisis as a reflection of a deep cultural crisis and that the arts is arguably the best way to shift cultural boundaries. Artists are particularly good at it. This is one of the reasons why you know when authoritarians get hold of the reins, you see artists and academics and you know philosophers, thinkers are the first targeted to be silenced or worse.
00:10:34
Speaker
So the arts are very powerful and in ways that punch way above their weight. And yet they're the most among the most disadvantaged in our economy. I was going to say. Yeah, that's an interesting. So how does that how does that intersect? you know I guess where there's a I guess a financial need in the arts and I worked in the marketing and philanthropy side of the arts as well for a period of time. and you know Obviously, we all know this term struggling artist isn't isn't a euphemism for no reason. It's because it's true and arts are always looking for support and sometimes that support comes in corporate money which might then be aligned with some of these big polluters, for example. How do you how do you navigate that? That's right and to recognize that that is a very good, it's ah it's a strategy. It's not by accident.
00:11:22
Speaker
so have support right You need financial support so to get the art happening. and These are really big economic questions. and I studied economics too. I was really interested in politics. I did go to university and I studied um arts and politics and economics because I was very interested in what our societies priorities were.
00:11:42
Speaker
And again, as I said, you know, having grown up in the kind of um mid to mid 60s to I ah left school um in 1982. So we straight into university and then suddenly it was literally like a boot came down on our head. So the ways in which we, you know, early Gen X's, I guess, were brought up to value things and to to value justice and fairness and to to participate in the world was really, really um interrupted with this idea that it's all about material wealth. And it sounds like I've kind of diverted, but in the arts, as we know, it's very difficult, I mean, unless you're looking at high end collecting, and and I had a lot of experience dealing with
00:12:31
Speaker
people who got involved in in leading institutions because they wanted also inside knowledge and access about collecting. So unless you're at that kind of really materialistic collecting end and you're very fortunate to be there, the life of most artists is extremely insecure and COVID really exposed so many of the floors that had built up over many, many decades. But it not only exposed that, but it also then kind of put it all on steroids. So Creative Australia has just come out with a recent report that shows the precariousness of the industry.
00:13:11
Speaker
And it's a complete... I did see that report. Yes, that that did get my attention. So that's interesting. We have we have metrics around that. Totally. And we all value the arts. I mean, as a contribution to society, the arts are so invaluable. And yet the working conditions of artists in modern Australia are appalling. so Yeah, they're probably getting worse because I was in the arts probably about 16 years ago and it was always tough, but you know there was probably a different ah different things we're paying attention to, but it it doesn't feel like we ever move the needle on that. That's right. Well, if anything, I feel like to the people who are profoundly kind of
00:13:53
Speaker
hostile or really fundamentally hostile to to democracy and to the arts and the sorts of questions that are raised by artists have pretty much captured in decision-making and captured public debate and the media concentration of ownership. are There are people who really actually don't like artists, I think I can quite safely say. Yeah, that would make sense. I mean, it's challenging for people to have the status quo, I guess, pushed in in front of them and then have to support that as well. How do you describe the role of politics and
00:14:29
Speaker
Of course, business interests, which we've touched on in delaying some of those big decisions, which we need for faster climate action. You know, it's not it's not like we didn't know 20, 30, 40 years ago, this was this was going to be an issue. But now here we are. And it feels like it's a gal glacial pastings.
00:14:45
Speaker
moving forward at. so what What would you think would need to happen in terms of that will that political will, but also laying down the law when it comes to business interests and making sure that we basically change the way the trajectory of tackling climate action? okay so we are entirely We are in this terrifying place that we're in right now entirely because of interference from industry.
00:15:12
Speaker
at every level. so It's very frustrating to hear these conversations spoken about as though we don't know the people who had the power, the awareness of the science, and the responsibility to avoid the climate emergency.
00:15:29
Speaker
and they had all of this in the late 60s and early 70s. A lot of the alternative zero emission alternatives were in development because of the OPEC oil crisis and there were concerns being raised. Again, this is where there was this reaction to you know to feminism, to environmentalism, to like, oh, hang on a minute, you know we actually live on this planet with other beings. And you know what? We kind of rely on them for everything. So there was this this real reaction to those sort of progressive movements. And so these people who had that power and responsibility, they they knew exactly what they were doing. So they set about ah creating these mass disinformation campaigns suppressing
00:16:15
Speaker
the solutions, really silencing the science, destroying the careers of scientists who were raising the alarm. They're still flying around in private jets and I'm waiting for it. I was going to say, I'm sure life for them doesn't change because they've got the, I guess, financial means for it not to. Except you just wonder when that tipping point will be and that's what happens through history. When enough of us say,
00:16:45
Speaker
this is just so outrageous and you're going to be held to account because it's not just that we need the money for the transition, which we do because it's decades overdue and, and, you know, and they, and catch up big time for sure. If they could have ah found ways to own and control access to, to renewable technologies, which are far more democratically, um, you know, created and structured and, and, um,
00:17:10
Speaker
I'm capable of being owned and collected community models so everybody benefits you know if they could work that out then we would um you know that the transition would happen they just basically have sought to continue to own and control access to energy which powers everything of course.
00:17:27
Speaker
so that they could just maximize profits. This is where the nuclear debate comes in. i mean That's just complete nonsense. i'm not you know I could go on for hours about that. I know, but it does feel like it's it's almost like fast rail between you know capital cities in Australia. this This comes up every election cycle, it feels like. and and It's just a bit of a noise and a bit of a distraction, but it doesn't necessarily change big picture what's happening. well You know what I mean? I pick on one type of form, whether you agree with nuclear or not, and then the whole thing becomes too hard, and then it's BAU. Nuclear is a very good distraction, but also you know one because it kicks the can down the road, but also because it can be owned and controlled to maximize process. That's where, but of course, I think 35 years before a nuclear power plant would even pay off the carbon embedded in creating this. Exactly.
00:18:21
Speaker
On every level, it is such rubbish. And if we had politicians who weren't, you know, and and can I say when, you know, going back to your question, the Atlas network of affiliated think tanks, there are between they are they're roughly kind of, I think, 550 to 600 affiliated think tanks around the world. Australia hosts a number of the most powerful ones. They were hugely active during the referendum, because any Any capacities for Indigenous people to have a greater say on what goes on in their land is a threat to the mining industry, so um a perceived threat to them. So they were you know hugely active financing disinformation campaigns and really
00:19:09
Speaker
Really, it was an assault and and they're so good at it. and So if we were to look to where this is really coming from.
00:19:21
Speaker
I can say it's it's not just industry, it's it's the Atlas network of affiliated think tanks that are entirely funded by industry. stone we do know i mean It's taken a ah while, it always does, but we do understand this ecosystem better, how they go about it, how they go about um shaping the public debate, even though people's personal values they they're not aligned it's like what we were just you know saying earlier about artists you know most people think artists are pretty great so why do we want to stop them and live you know have them living in in such insecurity. um Yeah so it's really interesting if you are interested in the way you know but life works for most people. It really, it all, it all meets in climate because it's about justice and it's about, I mean, I could have been an activist in so many different things, but I thought, well, at the end of the day, they all actually all meet at climate. So I could fight, you know, for forests, I could fight for whales, I could fight for people, but at the end of the day, if we're all going to be smashed, because the climate's breaking down, focus on climate.
00:20:32
Speaker
Yeah absolutely no i love that and i think you brought that together in a in a way which makes sense as well are there certain ways or particular you know one or two maybe that ways that you believe that credit thinkers and makers become more engage a climate action a practical way meaning that we don't just get inspired or you know sometimes it shocks you are sometimes it gets you.
00:20:53
Speaker
it makes you move you to tears is obviously an emotional response but actually sometimes that's you walk away from it and it can feel idly stick it feels like that shocking and terrible but you know nothing really is gonna change but are there ways in which you think the creative forces can actually move the needle on this in a positive way.
00:21:13
Speaker
Oh, i so do. Artists who complex systems thinkers and they the whole world in that that they work in is around experimenting and you know addressing new challenges. and We need seriously imaginative and visionary approaches.
00:21:31
Speaker
So, it's you know artists can make very powerful work that that engages and inspires and really does shine spotlights, holds power to account. but But I think artists are also, they should be sitting at the table and helping to draft the climate emergency plans.
00:21:53
Speaker
And they'll probably be more fun with you. I was going to say, it's way better than just a bunch of words on a page and another white paper, perhaps. That's right. I mean, at the end of the day, how do we feel about what's going on and how do we engage with with those really deep emotions because to get humans to to really take action on anything requires that kind of very deep emotional connections and solutions. So, climate doesn't just focus on, you know, this is the problem. We focus very much on the solutions have been there since.
00:22:31
Speaker
the 60s and 70s. We should have done this by the early 90s, and we would have had had industry not found ways to interfere in very um you know very covert, secretive ways. And you know these Atlas Network um think tanks I was talking about?
00:22:48
Speaker
They all get tax deductions. It's a big base there behind all the mechanics of what we see. There's definitely money and power in different corridors. And there are registered charities. It's just outrageous. And if more people understood that, I think we see some pretty radical change pretty quickly. So thanks for having me on your podcast.
00:23:14
Speaker
That's awesome I love this discussion it says a lot in it almost too much for one show but it's it's definitely giving us all food for thought to change tack a little bit what's a business tool or a hack or some sort of piece of tech maybe that you're using in your business or your life that you're really enjoying and getting value from.
00:23:32
Speaker
There's a Miller note. Have you heard of Miller note? It's basically like a virtual whiteboard. It's fun. all right So it's a really great creative organizing tool. So have a look at that. You can kind of, you know, you can upload images and links to things. And it's ah that's great. I haven't heard of that. I've got a remarkable, you know, those that you um can you basically make notes on and it turns it into notes that can go into your laptop. But also it's great for imagery. If you're a creative thinker and you like to doodle or you like to draw graphs and and represent things like that, it's been great. And it's just like writing on paper, which is what I love, because that's going to age me by saying that. But I definitely love my my notebook and pen.
00:24:14
Speaker
But although technology can help, i do I do love a bit of tech as well if it saves me time um because we're all pretty time poor these days. We've got to go with it, don't we, Amber? You do have to find the bits you like and then say no thanks to the bits that that maybe are not for you. What's been your biggest life lesson to date and why has it been important? Really understanding what you can control and that really the only thing is how you respond to situations. you know There are so many situations. and just It's just one of those lessons I keep relearning on a daily basis. i but you know it's like The one thing that we really can control is our responses.
00:25:01
Speaker
sorry and to really focus on making sure that that they are the best responses that we are capable of, we said ah you know taking into consideration the best available facts and data and evidence. How do I respond? And this is why I cannot understand why we have politicians who are not responding to the the facts in that way. That's their job.
00:25:28
Speaker
Exactly. That's what we elect them to do to make those um responsible decisions on on our behalf. How do you define your own version of success? When people like me don't need to basically fight for common sense to be heard, from fight to have a scientist who have worked so hard to do the brilliant work that they have done to show us what's at stake. The gravity of what's at stake aren't continuously being ignored and worse. yes so that would be you know When don't have to do this anymore, it'll be it'll be
00:26:06
Speaker
you know And we have a genuine climate justice process. And we have those people who are responsible, held to account. And we've we've got to take away their money because they just keep interfering. So it's not just the money we need for the transition. It really is actually ending their capacities to continue their interference. Absolutely. A final takeaway message for us on the politics of climate action.
00:26:34
Speaker
Well, that was for the purpose of my book was to show that we can all make a difference in our lives and that whatever shape that takes and we're all part of communities and to to we don't have to educate ourselves in all the you know nuances of of climate change.
00:26:54
Speaker
It's enough to know what is what a responsible democracy looks like and that if that if we we hold our leaders to account for just responding to the best available facts and data, evidence and independent evidence, not vested interests, not political donors,
00:27:11
Speaker
that that we do all have a role in society and that we should, you know that old expression, you remember, and this kate came along with neoliberalism as all that's so political. You're like, well, that's actually like, what's wrong with that? Because doesn't that mean that I care about the way others experience the world and our society?
00:27:30
Speaker
be proud of being political. We are unashamedly political at Climate and Climax and Live. We literally say we are unashamedly political. We encourage people to speak up on what's right. Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. If you do want to connect further with Deborah and her organisations, you can through our show notes, there will be some links there. It's been an absolute pleasure. Until next time, take care.
00:28:14
Speaker
you or someone you know has a fresh