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247: The Politics of Leading New Generations - Dr. Paige Williams
63 Plays15 days ago
Traditional leadership tools are failing to meet the challenges and opportunities of the ecosystem we live and lead in now, according to my guest today. Leaders need a flexible and interconnected system of ideas and frameworks to successfully lead for high performance – and the good news is, her new book shows you how. In The Leaders Ecosystem: A Guide to Leading, Exceptionally (Grammar Factory $34.95), Dr Paige Williams provides a unique, practical framework for leaders to successfully lead themselves, others, and systems to feel well and perform well through uncertainty. Paige is also a keynote speaker, organisational psychologist, and Honorary Fellow at the University of Melbourne. A world leader in positive psychology, and the author of five books on leading well in modern times, Paige is obsessed with one question above all others: 'What does good look like?'. If you are leading now or are likely to become a future leader in your area of speciality or run a business, this is the podcast for you.
1. Do you each recall what you wanted to do for a job when you grew up? And how did your early career take shape to get you where you are now?.
2. What was your childhood career and life dream? Did it work out?
3. Does leading each generation always change and evolve? What is your view and an example please?
4. What is not working now in workplaces and why?
5. How has individualism impacted workplaces? Millennials and Gen Z are sometimes brushed with the general view it is all about them. Is that fair and does that makes them better leaders because they may be less likely to stick to the status quo?
6. How can a leader successfully disrupt cycles of underperformance and reset accountability?
7. Trust, psychological safety, and tapping into our creativity all seem to work well together to lead to overall success – how does an organization foster these to bring out the best in its people?
8. Your #1 business tool or hack (not a smartphone) and what can it do for you that helps?
9. Your biggest life lesson to date and why?
10. How do you define your version of success?
11. Takeaway: What is your final message for us on The Politics of Leading New Generations?
Connect further:
Website: https://drpaige.au/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drpaigewilliams/
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Politics of Everything'
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the politics of everything. I'm Amber Danes, your host and podcast producer. This is a half hour of power podcast dropping every week where I unpack the politics of everything from money to motherhood, nutrition to narcissism, startups to secularism, the environment, quality and much, much more.
00:00:22
Speaker
Our guests are seasoned in the field of topic of their choice, even if you've not heard of them yet. This is a nonpartisan show. So while I love exploring varied views and get a buzz from a healthy debate of ideas, this is not a purely blue, white, green program. Please subscribe, tune in and enjoy the politics of everything.
Flexible Leadership Framework by Dr. Paige Williams
00:00:45
Speaker
Traditional leadership tools are failing to meet the challenges and opportunities of the ecosystem we live in and leading now, according to my guest today. Leaders need a flexible and interconnected system of ideas and frameworks to successfully lead for high performance. And the good news is her new book shows you how. In the book title, The Leader's Ecosystem, A Guide to Leading Exceptionally, Dr. Paige Williams provides a unique practical framework for leaders to successfully lead themselves,
00:01:13
Speaker
others, and systems to feel well and perform well through uncertainty. Paige is a keynote speaker, organisational psychologist and honorary fellow at the University of Melbourne. A world leader in positive psychology and the author of five books on leading well and long times, Paige is obsessed with one question above all others. What does good look like?
Remote Podcasting with Zencastr
00:01:34
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Paige Williams' Career Journey
00:02:44
Speaker
It's time to share your story. Do you recall what you wanted to do when you were a young what person, Paige? This sounds like it's a career that is amazing, but I don't imagine being in leadership with something you thought of when you were a young young child.
00:02:59
Speaker
Oh, Amber, I think I probably went through the very traditional things of wanting to be a ballet dancer, ah maybe wanting to be an actress at some point, but by the time I'd reached my mid-teens, um and that was kind of in the mid-80s, I wanted to go into PR, I wanted to go into public relations in London, because at that time in the UK, which is where I grew up, there was this amazing series called Absolutely Fabulous with Joanna. Oh, yes. And I think I kind of fell in love with that whole world. um And I felt that words and communication were something that I enjoyed. um And so I think by the time I was like 15, 16, that was what I was aiming for. And in fact, that was my first job after my business studies degree. Oh, there you go. So I have to live because that's what i say,
00:03:47
Speaker
I've spent a lot of time having fabulous lunches or getting free designer clothes. So I think it's more that I've chosen corporate communications. But I think for a lot of people who don't know the opaque world of PR, ah it was pretty much ah a bit of a blueprint for for a whole generation.
00:04:02
Speaker
That's right. I think it set us off on a trajectory and the reality was something quite different. ah yeah I walked in corporate and financial PR in the city of London, so yeah, not too many long lunches and designer handbags in that in that setting for sure. Absolutely. Well, I love to hear people's backstories. I think it often shaped you know shapes where you've ended up and obviously informs some of your decision making.
Generational Views on Leadership
00:04:22
Speaker
Does leading each generation always have to change and evolve? Obviously, in that introduction, we've talked about the fact that you know've you've written five books on similar topics.
00:04:31
Speaker
Each generation seems to have its own incarnation of what yeah they think leadership should be, how it should lead, what their role is. What's your view on that holistically? Are there any examples which you think could bring that to life?
00:04:44
Speaker
Yeah, sure. Look, I think theres the whole thing about generations is that we are shaped by the times in which we have our formative years and the values, the world events, more locally, the national events. They really shape how, what our worldview is, what we value and what we think, you know, this question of what does good look like, how we think the world should be showing up for us.
00:05:07
Speaker
Also a very clear example would be if you think about a generation that grew up during war times where there perhaps was food was rationed, a whole generation of young men were away from home, how they see the world is going to be fundamentally different than some of our millennial generations that have grown up in very stable times politically and economically. um There has not been the and certainly in you know, where we live in Australia there hasn't been the restrictive nature, there hasn't been a generation of of young males who had to be elsewhere for very um compelling reasons at that time. So yes, I think that what good looks like for each generation changes and therefore
00:05:50
Speaker
how they see what good leadership looks like and what they want from a workplace, from a leader also shifts. So if we, one of the things that's really live at the moment in workplaces is the XYZ generation. So I'm a GenXer in my early fifties and Our generation is generally in those kind of senior leadership roles right now, but actually
Intergenerational Workforce Dynamics
00:06:12
Speaker
what's coming. Except if you're in America, I had this whole thought the other day because there was someone doing a meeting. I'm also Gen X and they were saying, you know, we've got the US elections coming up and we've got two boomers who just want to let go of power. And it's like, it's our turn, but it's not going to be our turn next. It's going to skip us. So there's that kind of intergenerational, I think, tug of war as well, which which obviously shapes workplaces.
00:06:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think that there is that and i and ah and I agree with you. I think that the the boomers are not retiring quietly or early, it would seem. And one of the things I read most recently is that many workplaces have seven generations in a workforce now and that's a huge values bridge to be bridging because some of them are actually the generation before Baby Boomers and right the way through to our most recent ah generations, which I think one of the names for them is the Alpha Generation. That is correct, yes. And what we're seeing in XYZ, because as I work with leaders and and teams and I hear some of the frustration around you know what's going on with the generations in the workforce, is that we've got us as exes and we've got our children who are now ah kind of in the early workforce stages and ages.
00:07:20
Speaker
And we have a similar value system, right? Because what we how we parented those and where what we are is we're quite gritty. We are have a strong work ethic. We grew up in a time, certainly as exes, where there was still the idea of a career for life. And what you got in terms of rewards was based on what you put in. So there was a return on investment for your effort. And work was a big part of identity.
00:07:46
Speaker
coming in between us is Generation Y. And they grew up, they were kind of the, they weren't quite technology natives, but they were technology adapters. And so there was lots of new tech that came during their formative years, and they were willing to take it on and try it and and see the difference that it makes to everyday life. So actually, these Gen Yers, which are often the people that I hear most kind of role i-rolling and oh god they don't want to do anything then they don't have the same approach and value value work in the same way these people are actually the generation that are going to be wonderful as we start embracing and working with ai on a day-to-day basis well that's it yeah there's technology adopters yeah yeah and they'll get on it sooner and they won't wait you know and they won't they won't wait wait
00:08:35
Speaker
Yeah, they have an optimistic attitude about the difference that technology can make in the workplace and in life more generally. So they're like, okay, bring it on. Let's give this a go, because that's what they grew up with. So they're in this sandwich of grittiness between X's and Z's, and it feels like they're kind of unrealistic, and they're a bit wafty, and they're not committed to the workplace.
00:08:56
Speaker
But really what we're seeing is a values difference. And each perspective, you know, we we talk a lot in workplaces around how different perspectives are valuable and diversity of experience brings, you know, better solutions to a challenge or a problem. And the same is true generationally, but it's about holding the space for that to happen.
Valuing Diverse Generational Perspectives
00:09:15
Speaker
And I think that's often the challenge that we have as leaders.
00:09:19
Speaker
is how do we hold the space for people to show up in their generational guise, whatever that may be, and actually add value in a way that makes sense for them, and that gives us a richer solution at the end of the conversation or the end of the meeting. It's also logical when you put it like that, honestly, Paige. Funny, it was that simple. Because humans are involved, of course, and I have, you know, my own sort of biases like we all do, but I often think one of the things I find the most challenging in having so many generations, even in my yeahr agency is that individualism impacts our workplaces. You know, we've got these generalisations about generations and mostly I can identify with stuff and exes, but I'm not everything that you know might be attributed to that as well. I've got a lot of influences and friends that are younger and older.
00:10:03
Speaker
Is it fair to actually assume what leaders are going to be like because they, you know, they come from a certain generation and they're going to stick to their particular biases? Or is there a way in which this individualism can kind of be dissect, I guess, with community in a workplace or an organisation so that holistically we're not just doing what's good for us, but we're doing what's better for the greater good?
00:10:26
Speaker
Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think that understanding the generational atmosphere from which a person emerges is useful, but it's only ever a start point, right? Because we have our individual experiences of that and labelling people and putting them in boxes is never useful. I've never found that that's the way for us to to make the best of of the people and the energy and the wisdom and experience in the room.
00:10:54
Speaker
I have a very simple framework that I often use with leaders and teams, and and it helps us have what I call the right conversation in the right way about the right thing. And it's a very simple idea of a triangle, and it's you, them at the bottom, and then it at the top. And you, them, and it is such a beautifully kind of general framework, but let's put it into the context of what we're talking about here, which is,
00:11:19
Speaker
You know, can you really expect people to be able to come together out of their individualistic nature and sense of self and do the the right thing for the collective? And I reckon when we get stuck in the you and me, so you and them, we're in our individualistic sense of self, individualistic thinking.
00:11:37
Speaker
And that can lead to what I call ping pong or tennis. And it can create a drama where it's where I'm seeing you versus me because i'm I'm stating my position and I'm almost like hunkering down into my corner. I'm going to defend my position because you've got a different perspective or a different position on this.
00:11:54
Speaker
Whereas actually what we need to do is both of us look up at the it. What's the work that we're here to do together? What's the contribution that we wouldn we need to make to the work of the organization or the team or the order? And this can work even in terms of whether that's a workplace example, but it can happen like in family dynamics whereby there's two different perspectives on the same thing. And it's like, okay, so how do we take ourselves out of you versus me and start thinking about what's the best outcome for it? Now, it could be the family holiday. It could be the anniversary celebration. It could be the conversation over the dinner table. It could be the project or program that we're all working on. But by depersonalizing it and making it about the work and the contribution that we want to and need to make together,
00:12:44
Speaker
It stops being that kind of drama field ping pong that keeps us in our individualized sense of self and our individualized perspective and thinking.
Fostering Accountability in Teams
00:12:53
Speaker
Absolutely. How can a leader successfully disrupt cycles of say underperformance and reset this notion of accountability? And I think accountability can feel sometimes a little bit esoteric for people as well.
00:13:06
Speaker
And it might come down to just the type of work they're doing or what their history in the workplace has been. If you've been somewhere for a very long time, for example, you might be wedded to old ways of working. You have a new leader come in. It all changes usually at some point. So do you have any tips to help people navigate that?
00:13:23
Speaker
I do, Amber. um This was um one of the books that I wrote was called Own It, honoring and amplifying accountability. and And interestingly, it was it was the second deep dive book that I wrote. And the first one was around a concept called anti fragility, which is around How do we thrive through disruption and uncertainty rather than break through it? But what I realized was that, ah so before I stepped into kind of academia and and working alongside leaders, I've led organizations, I've led teams. And as I was teaching the work around antifragility and sharing that,
00:13:58
Speaker
And I was coming back to the people I'd worked with, the leaders, teams, organisations. I realised that actually the thing that makes and keeps us most fragile is the, are these challenges and issues with accountability? Because when you think about it, if accountability isn't in place,
00:14:14
Speaker
then nothing sticks. It's like pouring resources down the drain, whether that's effort or energy or attention. like All of our resources just get wasted in this fog of confusion around who's doing what and when and where and what's the purpose of it. And so I realized that actually we need to go upstream. And accountability, I reckon, is the upstream strategic move for any team, any leader to make.
00:14:39
Speaker
Because if we get clear around what are the expectations, well well what are the deliverables, and we have the right conversation in the right way around what those expectations are, we're prepared to have a dialogue about it, rather than it just being a top-down approach. So I talk about partnering.
00:14:57
Speaker
in accountability conversations and then we do the follow-up because you know like it's not rocket science it's about getting those expectations clear and then fostering accountability relationships that have enough psychological and psychosocial safety for us to be able to say hey we talked about doing that has that been done how are you going with it and on the other side of it is if you're being asked for accountability, and there are challenges with it, say, hey, do you realise I'm actually being asked to deliver six things in the next three days, because I've got multiple um accountability relationships that you perhaps um aren't across. and something ignore that's that Obviously empowers people too, because I think like in the traditional workplaces that Gen X's particularly grew up in, you just wouldn't say,
00:15:45
Speaker
and anything like you just would work all the hours and maybe not do it all so well but you know the idea that you could speak up and be really honest is actually really refreshing I imagine for a lot of people.
00:15:56
Speaker
And when you think about it, it's how we create the best work environment and the best quality work. And it's not that there's any kind of excuse of saying, I don't like doing that work, so I'm not going to deliver on those expectations. But it is about, I talk about pulling pulling out the monster from under the bed, which is where I reckon accountability has been for a while. um And actually saying no. This accountability, it's about how do we set each other and us collectively up for success. Because when I ask you to be accountable, what I'm saying is I see that this is possible for you. I see the greatness in you. And I'm here to support you get there and for us to do the best work that we can together.
00:16:35
Speaker
Excellent. I love that. That leads me to my next question, which is around those ideas of trust, psychological safety, and tapping into our creativity, which I think when it works well together, and I see that in my organization and with the clients that I do media training and campaign work with, it can really lead to that overall sense of shared success.
00:16:53
Speaker
How do we foster that to bring out the best in people? Because sometimes it's there' there's a kind of like the day-to-day tools to getting the work done, but there's a bigger culture piece of play here as well, which you can't just suddenly turn creativity on or
Building Trust and Psychological Safety
00:17:06
Speaker
turn on trust. It gets to be built over time, I imagine.
00:17:09
Speaker
Absolutely, it does. Yeah, as you say, it's not just ah and and it and it's one of those things that it takes time to build and it's lost really quickly and easily. And so there is a consistency piece to it. Certainly one of the pieces of work I've done is with my colleague, Dr. Michelle McQuaid, and we've been researching into cultures that foster care, cultures that foster trust, and specifically psychological safety and psychosocial safety for about six years. One of the things that leaders can do that builds trust and psychological safety, and it's really easy, it doesn't take it kind of doesn't take anything more on your to-do list,
00:17:45
Speaker
is very simply say what you'll do and do what you'll say. Like, again, it's not rocket science. But when we did this research with team members, the thing that came through again and again is knowing that you will have my back and knowing that you will do what you say and that you'll say what you'll do. So you won't keep things from me. You won't be opaque in your communication. You'll be clear and timely in your communication.
00:18:11
Speaker
And you won't hang me out to dry. yeah So when you say you'll do something or you'll support me in something, then you will do that. And that consistently over time, that's what builds trust. And alongside that comes the safety of being able to have a conversation like we just chatted about around accountability, which is, hey,
00:18:31
Speaker
this isn't going according to our expectations like there's been a problem with this or I don't think I'm going to be deliver be able to deliver to that timeframe or um I've stuffed this up um and I need to let you know, I want to let you know earlier in the piece because we know certainly that in my time as a leader, um I know that earlier I know that something isn't going according to plan, the better because it means we can minimise the impact of it and and manage what needs to be managed, whether that's client relations or elsewhere in the organization. Turning our conversation to my more general questions that I ask all my guests, I can imagine you have lots of time-saving and fabulous tools at your disposal, but there is a one particular tool or hack that just can't be your smartphone because we all have those, but something a little bit more granular that's really helping you that or that you're enjoying working with in your in your business at the moment.
Effective Leadership with Good Questions
00:19:21
Speaker
Um, so I'm not so much ah a tech hack person. Um, I, I use tech as a tool, but I, um, it's not one of them loves in my life. Oh my God. Spoken like a true Gen X page. I know. Like this is the thing, right? You can't deny where you come from. Um, but I love the, so I reckon I reckon one of the most strategic hacks for a leader.
00:19:44
Speaker
are good questions. So I use a number of guiding heuristics. So heuristics for me are things that help me navigate life effectively and really well without expending any more mental or emotional energy than I need to. So for example, one of my life hacks is everything you need and nothing you don't. And I apply that across the board so i apply it to my food to my wardrobe i apply it to meeting agendas um i apply it to conversations like i don't need everything we need and nothing we don't helps me manage my mental energy and emotional energy.
00:20:25
Speaker
And it means that I do the work to make sure I'm not making you or whoever I'm communicating with drink from a fire hydrant. So I do the work to make sure that our conversation or our communication is everything we need and nothing we don't to get the work done together that we need to get done. um So a nice small but small talk from Hage.
00:20:45
Speaker
Well, it's not that there's no small talk, but it won't take up 20 minutes of a 30 minute time frame. I think sometimes it's quite bristling for people who are not used to that. Like even in my business, things like, for me, Calendly has been like really fantastic because I have a remote team. People can book, which you can only book 30 minutes with me.
00:21:02
Speaker
Does that make sense? Unless there's a special, yeah yeah like the podcast usually 45 or if there's a strategy session, there's a different link for that, but you only get that when you've already you know asked for that. So it just means we don't have an hour to fill with you know a whole bunch of stuff, which when I haven't met people maybe in person before, I think they find it really efficient. But then again, in hindsight, we do get the work done quicker.
00:21:23
Speaker
Yeah absolutely and at the beginning of a meeting I'll often say so I've got 30 minutes for this in my calendar just checking you have to have we got a hard finish at the end of the meeting I just want to be respectful of your time and and so I'm actually kind of setting it up right from the beginning so that as we get 28 minutes in of a 30 minute meeting and I'm saying right so I've heard that we're doing this this and this before we meet again or as a follow-up to this meeting is my understanding yours as well and then we finish on time and really it's an honouring and a respecting. I totally agree. Both our times, yeah. Yeah, absolutely, totally. That sounds great, I love that, I love the hole that whole ethos. What's been your biggest life lesson to date and what's it taught you?
Learning from Setbacks and Redefining Success
00:22:07
Speaker
Oh, so many life lessons. So many, too many. Well, now I guess it's just one of the themes that draw them together. I think one of the things is that um as I've gone through life, i i've I've had expectations of how i think how I thought things were going to go. So i' I'm divorced.
00:22:27
Speaker
I didn't go into marriage thinking I was going to get divorced. And and nobody really does, I don't think. No, exactly, right? i The first book that I wrote um absolutely failed, flopped in on its launch day because something to do with a technical, something with Amazon. And i unlike an eight-week campaign and had people online waiting to buy and all of this kind of thing and then a whole series of fake shops popped up because they could see there was demand and there wasn't a supply and and it was it you know it was my first book so it's like first child and it oh dear it was awful. Wow that's and that's that can be very soul-crushing but you still bounce back and you write my books. Yeah well exactly and and so i if you say so what's the lesson is that everything is temporary this too shall pass
00:23:16
Speaker
And in its way, everything is perfect, even if you can't see it at the time. yeah and And so i I very much like another guiding heuristic, like everything is temporary, everything is perfect.
00:23:28
Speaker
And I use that everything is temporary for all the for the good times as well. so So that there's really kind of, yeah, this too shall pass, not just for the times that are struggling, but for the times that are beautiful to really take the moment and savor them. yeah So I think I love that as being both sides of that, not just the struggle, the joy as well. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that. It's very wise. So how do you define your own version of success?
00:23:54
Speaker
So i I don't think we ever reach, so for me personally, you never reach success. It's not an end point. And so one of the things I talk about in becoming anti fragile is and how can we be better coming out of this than we were coming into it? And so for me, that's what it's about. How can I be better coming out of this? And when I talk about better,
00:24:14
Speaker
And I apply this in my own world is ah better doesn't mean more. Better doesn't mean I've achieved like a higher level. It means expanded in some way. It means I am wiser, um that there's been some growth through this for me. um and And again, that means that success doesn't have to be that I'm the best at anything. But what I am is a better version of me through the experiences that I have. And if I'm continually in that space, then that's it. I'm on a trajectory of success. I'm not achieving success. Yeah, awesome. I've never heard it put like that. So that's very refreshing.
Valuing Generational Contributions in Leadership
00:24:59
Speaker
And just as we wrap up our conversation today, what would be your final takeaway message for us on the politics of leading new generations? I think it's this idea of holding space. the Everyone has a contribution and value to bring
00:25:14
Speaker
And I reckon as leaders, perhaps some of our most challenging work is putting down our own bias, assuming positive intent of others that they are actually here to do the best work that they can in this moment and to make a contribution and then to be willing to listen. um And that's not to say that it's then decisions by committee because our role as a leader is to make a decision and communicate that clearly and and and give the direction and the way forward and to hold that until something emerges that means it needs to change. But that idea of holding space, I think, is the way that we bring together generations and value and honour them to do the best work that we can together.
00:25:59
Speaker
Absolutely. I love that. I think it's a powerful final thought in our conversation. Of course, if you want to connect further with Paige, there are details on the show notes. Until next time, take care. Thanks so much for listening today.