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EP. 123 Jennifer N. Baker talks FORGIVE ME NOT and early environment
14 Plays1 year ago
Jennifer Baker was named the 2019 Publishers Weekly Star Watch “SuperStar” because her “varied work championing diversity in publishing has made her an indispensable fixture in the book business.” She is the recipient of a 2017 NYSCA/NYFA Artist Fellowship and a 2017 Queens Council on the Arts New Work Grant (as well as the QCA Jr. Board Artistic Excellence Award) in Nonfiction. Her essay “What We Aren’t” was also listed as a Notable Essay in The Best American Essays 2018.
On Its Personal, Jennifer chats about her debut YA, FORGIVE ME NOT, and all of its meanings. Jennifer shares her thought process around the story, and how the multiple themes within the story have an impact on today's world. Throughout this chat, Jennfier also dives into her childhood and explains some of her most memorable moments in school.
Website: https://www.jennifernbaker.com/bio
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jbakernyc/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jbakernyc
FORGIVE ME NOT: https://www.jennifernbaker.com/forgive-me-not-novel
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:02
Speaker
There you go. All set? Yeah. Awesome. All right. Welcome back everyone to another episode of It's Personal. Today, I have another special guest with me right now. She is currently in New York City. She calls home. Do you mind introducing yourself?
Jennifer Baker's Background and Inspirations
00:00:21
Speaker
Hey everybody, I'm Jennifer Baker. I'm the author of the upcoming YA novel, Forgive Me Now, that comes out 8-15. And I'm also a podcaster like Gary with the Minorities in Publishing podcast that'll be nine years old from August. Wow. Dan, I appreciate you so much. And you're so humble because you do a lot of other things as well. We only got so much time, Gary.
00:00:51
Speaker
But I really want to jump into your story and talk about the book. For those of you who are listening, Jen has been so gracious about her work. So she's sent me a copy of the novel and I'm about five chapters in, and I am so excited for this book. Jen, I love your writing so much. So we will get to that, but I want to talk about Jen, little Jen.
00:01:18
Speaker
growing up. What did that look like for you? And I'm assuming that was in New York as well.
Upbringing and Educational Experiences
00:01:25
Speaker
Yeah, I'm from, I was born in Brooklyn, raised for the first eight years with my grandparents and cousins and aunts in Long Island. And then after my grandparents sold their house in Long Island and moved back to the south, because that's where they migrated from, my mom and I became transient beings in Queens. So I've lived a lot of
00:01:46
Speaker
parts of this borough that I call home for the past 30 plus years. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow. And what was schooling like for you? Like I always ask this question. I'm from Canada. I grew up in a all black community. My schooling, you know, consisted of a lot of kids from my community and then the majority of the rest of the school being white. But I'm curious like for you,
00:02:12
Speaker
What did that look like in regards to classmates, in regards to teachers, in regards to relationships, et cetera? Yeah, that's something, I mean, I'm curious because you have this beautiful picture book I'm from coming out in September that talks about where we come from and what builds us in our lives. And similarly, for me, I've always grown up with people of color. So, you know, like there's a lot of books that I think are necessary in this world and media that, you know, showcases people
00:02:41
Speaker
of color who are being so isolated and they're the only one, but I can't relate to that because I've always, you know, there's just been a plethora of different kinds of communities, ethnic communities and the intersectionality of who we are and all that stuff that has just made up who I am and how I see the world and how I write. And, you know, and you know, better than anyone as a writer and editor, like,
00:03:07
Speaker
We all have, I am from stories have been around for so long. I love listening to everyone's story about the places they come from. And I'm still, I will remain curious about your story. Like what did Jen have a favorite teacher in school? Did she have a best friend in school? Did she have a favorite lunch in school? What are some of those things that you remember?
00:03:35
Speaker
Yeah, my family was really supportive of me being in the arts.
00:03:40
Speaker
So I like to draw, I like to write. And so I was really supported by a lot of teachers who were, you know, I was kind of, I don't know if it's to say a goody-goody, but I was like a student. I liked school, I liked learning and I excelled. And I think that's a privilege as well, because school isn't easy for everybody. So for me, I just went in and I came in as kind of an overachiever.
00:04:05
Speaker
and I just wanted to do things well and I had the freedom and support from my family to write to draw to do whatever you know there was never a limitation of you can't do that Jen you can't oh you're you know you're black you're a woman you're I never had that in my family especially from the women so I the world was my oyster so imagine what it's like when you grow up and then you see some of those stop gaps and those
00:04:31
Speaker
levels of discrimination, because the home life and again, the world around me is so eclectic. I'm like, I don't, what do you mean, oppression?
School Memories and Reflections
00:04:41
Speaker
What do you mean we can't do these things? Not because it's like this weird concept, but because I am not in the midst of it, because I've been encouraged, and the teachers encouraged me. And, you know, and I did have a lot of white teachers, and they were in communities of color. So they had to
00:04:57
Speaker
understand that they needed to be supportive of the IPOC and all that stuff. So, Yummy, you know, I love pizza, you know, the flatbread pizza. I don't know if y'all's also had that. I know you have pizza in Canada, but I don't know if that was like a, you know what I mean? Like for us in New York, that was the day, pizza day.
00:05:21
Speaker
So those were the things I just really liked going to school. I enjoyed it. I wasn't terrorized. I think that's a privilege too, maybe. So the stories I write don't look at, you know, this kind of harbinger of awfulness when it comes to black life or school life, especially for young readers. I think it's looking at a different level of universality that we experience because that's how I've been raised.
00:05:50
Speaker
Wow. I have so many questions just based off of that answer. I think number one, yeah, pizza day has always been a thing for all of us. And still to this day, pizza, like I'm a third grade teacher and kids go to the cafeteria and I'm reminded religiously that this pizza day. So that thing is like universal for sure. So I want to know about the quality of the pizza, but maybe that's an offline conversation.
00:06:17
Speaker
Cause it's like even thinking about it, I'm like, it wasn't that bad.
00:06:23
Speaker
For me, I remember in my elementary, I think at the time, it wasn't that bad because I was just excited about the pizza. But now the more that I think about it, I was like, it probably wasn't the best. As you know, those frozen pizzas that you get, I think sometimes they come in packages of six and they're just like the round pizza and they're basically just wrapped in plastic.
00:06:48
Speaker
And you basically just put them either in the oven or the microwave and they're not, I mean, they're not.
00:06:54
Speaker
They weren't great, but during the time, I believe they were like the one. You had circles, cause we had like kind of like the stuffers. Yeah, it was rectangles for us. And you also mentioned- I don't know if that hits the quality different. No, it has to be round. I can't even deal with this octagon, rectangular. I agree. You talked about having white teachers,
00:07:24
Speaker
I'm curious about that because for me, I think I would consider myself lucky with having a variety. I had like an admin in high school, middle school who were black, a few teachers that were black. And I mean, again, from Nova Scotia, I consider that lucky because we are.
00:07:41
Speaker
very white, like very, very white in regards to population. Um, so with you being in a school that's predominantly people of color, uh, with having white, some white teachers, um, what was that like? Because as you mentioned, you said those teachers were there and it sounds like they were supportive. Um, but do you remember a time where, um, yeah, they were supportive for you or not so supportive. Uh, what's that look like for you?
00:08:09
Speaker
Yeah, so I had to think a bit as you were talking, as I was listening to you talk, because I didn't have a lot of Black teachers. It was more so when I went to college and got my undergrad, and then I had one teacher in my MFA program, Jeff Renard Allen. But for the most part, administrators, or the people of color, or security guards.
00:08:35
Speaker
which is also something I saw similarly when I got into book publishing 20 years ago was there weren't a lot of us in these key roles. We were reception, mail room, security and the building, stuff like that. And so you start thinking about that a little bit more as you see it and operate alongside what these systems are doing and who's in and out. But to that question about like,
00:09:01
Speaker
I think also it was because I was a model student. So I do have to take that into account, right? So if, especially when we look at the news today and see, you know, someone's loud, quote unquote, or they're not behaving, quote unquote, and what does that mean? And how they're tackled or, you know, not seen as people. So if you take me a dark skin, black skin, black woman, woman,
00:09:26
Speaker
and I'm a model student, I'm polite, I say please and thank you, I get A's and B's, I come in on time, it can look like a form of assimilation, right? Like, well, Jennifer's one of the good ones. So I, in retrospect, and thank you for that question, I can see that that could be part of it too. It's not to say that they were awful or they had biases, even though we all have biases, it's also that in working alongside me,
00:09:56
Speaker
operating in a way because I like being there and I'm fitting all these boxes of what appropriate behavior is and what appropriate, you know, appropriate looks like and all that stuff. So I think for the most part, that's been the case. And then if I was louder or something, maybe they
00:10:15
Speaker
yelled at me or said, sit down or what the hell, which is understandable when you're dealing with 30 students at one time in a public school system. But for the most part, I never really had those kinds of negative experiences with teachers. But again, I wanna acknowledge that privilege of just being someone who liked school and was committed to school and did well in school that could very much attribute to that.
00:10:42
Speaker
Wow. And Jen, were there other things outside of just like literature that you enjoyed in school? You know, I was in the chorus. I was an alto, I think. And I like that. I think if anyone who has been in a chorus in elementary or junior high, you probably all sing the same songs, right? Like Hero by Mariah Carey, A Whole New World from Aladdin. Some Christmas songs when it came to it.
00:11:13
Speaker
But I liked it, and apparently I had a decent voice, but I never kind of went on a path of music. My mom even offered me to take piano lessons, but she was a single mom, and I was very conscious of that, and my name most, some of the time, most of the time. So I never really pursued that, and I kind of regret that I didn't pursue more music or more visual art, because I love that so much. And I need it, like I need art, and I need substance to feed my art, right?
00:11:43
Speaker
Yep. I totally get that. And I.
00:11:47
Speaker
I regret, like I, my parents put me in absolutely everything they could have put me in with the circumstances. Like I played piano when I was younger. I hated it. I think I hated it. Like I think partially because I was slowly getting into sports. I was a little bit impatient at the time and I wanted to just know how to play. And that's not what happens with music. Like you need to be patient, sit with your mistakes.
00:12:14
Speaker
all the things you need to practice. And I had a really, really hard time doing that when I was younger. And then sports happened and I just allowed sports to take over my life. So I did basketball, volleyball, baseball, like everything I could possibly do almost I think to like self sabotage myself into not
00:12:36
Speaker
playing piano and now I look back I was like yeah of course I wish I would have like committed myself a little bit more but I do appreciate my parents not like forcing me to to do it as well because I've seen stories and I've heard stories of kids being forced into certain extracurricular things that just doesn't turn out very well for them so
00:13:02
Speaker
I do appreciate that. Jen, I don't know how much time we have, but we need to talk about your book.
About 'Forgive Me Now'
00:13:10
Speaker
We have lots of things to discuss. So I'll allow you, obviously, because it is your book, to give us the title of the book in a brief description of what readers are in store for. And I don't know if they're actually ready, to be honest. I love your description, but they're not ready.
00:13:33
Speaker
I really don't. The teens are ready. I think they're ready. But please just share the title. You can share the publication date and a brief description, as much as you want, honestly, about what the book is about. So thank you so much again. So it's Forgive Me Now. It's a little shiny based on my lighting. But Forgive Me Now is a young adult title from Nancy Paulson Books, which is an imprint with Penguin Random House. And it comes out 8-15-2023.
00:13:59
Speaker
And it's essentially a dual perspective novel. So you hear Violetta who's on the cover is the one you're following, but her older brother Vincent is also someone you hear from. Unfortunately, Violetta got into a drunk driving accident and her sister died because of it. And so in the juvenile detention system there,
00:14:23
Speaker
you have options, which is that you either do these things called the trials, which are a form of, quote unquote, rehabilitation for teens to help them understand their mistakes and be better. You can be further incarcerated or detained or you can be forgiven. And in this world as well, the victims of the crime that was perpetuated
00:14:45
Speaker
decide alongside the Department of Corrections. And unfortunately, this happened, but also unfortunately the victims are violent as family.
00:14:56
Speaker
When I read your description, I honestly was like, oh. I was like, oh my. I was like, we are jumping right into this. I literally ran to my wife and I was like, you need to read the description right now. Like this book, I can just tell based on like the description that it's going to be good. And I love stories like yours and
00:15:23
Speaker
One of the main things that I love is that it has so many themes. For me, again, I'm only on chapter five, but I feel like the theme of love, loss, forgiveness, all play a role. And again, I'm only on chapter five, but I'm seeing these things pop up already, just listening to Leta's story and how she's explaining how she feels about the situation. And right now she's just meeting people and they're sharing experiences.
00:15:53
Speaker
Like what inspired you to write this? Like where did these ideas or themes come from? I'm very curious. Do you know the show Forgive and Forget? It was a syndicated show in the US at least. I don't know. Okay. Yeah. So Mama Love hosted it and then Robin Givens went on to host it and it's in syndication. I don't know how you can watch it. Go to YouTube, all that stuff.
00:16:20
Speaker
But essentially these folks would make mistakes. Say you cheated on your wife or you spent someone's money or stole their identity, whatever. And they would go to the show, forgive or forget, and say, I want to bring this person on national TV and apologize to them.
00:16:42
Speaker
And so they would go on the show, it was very kind of Jerry Springer style in terms of how to set up. And they would say what they did in front of a live studio audience. And they would say, okay, so if this person forgives you, they'll be behind the door. If not, then something will appear on the screen and their video will tell you how they feel. And I was just watching it one day and I said, well, what if this was just how
00:17:09
Speaker
Criminal justice worked. And more specifically, what if this is how it was for teens? Because I felt like I could tell the story more compactly or concretely for teens rather than it making it like the whole thing. Because teens would technically have less agency.
00:17:27
Speaker
in terms of their decisions because they're seen as adults or they're not seen as adults. And then it just really spiraled from there and Violeta and Vincent came very naturally. It was always they were who they were from the start, their identities, their names, none of that changed. It's just the story just progressively became
00:17:44
Speaker
more layered and deeper and needed what it needed to cover the themes that you're mentioning of forgiveness. It's not just about incarceration, right? Like this is about family and how we just kind of go with things because we're told they're good for us. And are they?
00:18:09
Speaker
Yeah, I'm again so I'm only very much in the beginning of this book but I love that I love the way that you've been able to weave these multiple themes through the characters for like their voices are so strong already I love listening to let it talk.
00:18:25
Speaker
just I love how you allow us to like just get inside her brain a little bit. And as she's like reflecting to herself and thinking about the things she's done. And then now she's like talking to her roommate and they're having conversations like I love how you do that. And her voice just sounds so natural, honestly. Thank you so much. So I really, really appreciate that. I love books that have really strong protagonists and Let Us Voice is just
00:18:52
Speaker
phenomenal. I'm just getting into Vincent's voice and as soon as I saw that it was like
00:18:57
Speaker
like how you were writing it and it was like two characters sharing like different parts of like what they're thinking. I was like, oh my, like it just drew me in even more. So I just really appreciate that. So my second question to that is like, what made you decide to write the book that way versus doing it in a more traditional sense of just like chapter after chapter, et cetera, with multiple characters talking after each other versus like having
00:19:25
Speaker
the different characters taking over like the entire chapters. I think for me, the biggest thing was I wanted you to see where the family was in their decision-making. And Vincent being part of it, but not part of it was integral to that, right? So for me personally, it would have been very heavy to stay with Violeta the whole book.
00:19:49
Speaker
I needed a break from detention. And I feel like the reader might need that. People can absolutely disagree when when they read it. And I respect that. But I needed that. And I wanted to give that to the reader to understand what was going on, because essentially, there are certain things that weren't going to happen until a certain point in the book. And so how do I make that happen if you're only with violetta?
00:20:18
Speaker
And, and I thought it was important for us to look a little bit about how the golden boy's son is treated versus the awkward daughter. And I really wanted to focus on women and femmes. And I really wanted you to understand that other people can kind of get away with these things, not because they're better or whatever, but because people aren't looking at them in the same way.
00:20:44
Speaker
So there are kind of other aspects of that, that I wanted to tackle. I love that. And I think that's exactly, you said, I think what I was thinking about as I was reading it, because yes, as I'm reading Vincent's parts, I do feel myself like slowing down more versus when I'm reading as Leta, I'm like, I'm almost speeding through that like chapter because things are happening so fast and she's thinking about so much. And it would, I would feel that it would be very, very heavy if her voice
00:21:14
Speaker
was the only voice we were hearing like very often just based on like what's happening in the story. So now that you say that I totally agree with you, it does give the reader a nice break from everything that's happening in the story. I'm so excited to finish this and I appreciate you for writing it.
Intersection of Roles: Podcaster, Editor, and Writer
00:21:37
Speaker
You're also a podcaster and an editor. I'm wondering how
00:21:44
Speaker
these roles intersect with like your work as a writer. Because as a podcaster to podcaster, like we talk to other authors and creators, etc. And then as an editor, this is my I mean, I've had editors before, I haven't had a professional editor until
00:22:06
Speaker
like most recently, and that's a different job, like based on what I see than like the creator as well. So like how have those roles intersect with like your writing? Yeah, that's a great question because it's definitely helped me with podcasting because then I listened to voices, right? So you're in these conversations and you're kind of picking up where
00:22:33
Speaker
it heightens and where it might lull and all that stuff. So that's been very helpful of the editing feeding the podcasting. And then the podcasting has fed a lot of ways because minorities in publishing is me talking to other people in the industry about what it's like. And that helped me learn a lot more about my own privilege and doing volunteer work and talking to so many people who are transgender, non-binary.
00:23:00
Speaker
you know, identify as disabled and all these things about what are they going through that things that I haven't gone through as a cisgender heterosexual able-bodied woman as someone who's born and raised in the US and people don't question.
00:23:13
Speaker
whether I belong here or not, or maybe they do, but not to my face. And so I learned a lot, especially to be able to write better, I think, in understanding, oh, what have I benefited from in ways that have not been good in terms of the way the systems are set up and how do I articulate that in work without being super heavy-handed or super messaging, but still,
00:23:40
Speaker
putting that into the narrative in and of itself. And so it's broadened my community in various ways. Cause I want to help people too, as an editor, you know, it's like people want community. That's the biggest thing. When I teach, when I do anything, people are like, I want community. Where do I find other folks to help and support me? Cause this is so isolating and we've been isolated. And so I think all those things have just allowed me to broaden the community. And again, that makes me a better writer.
00:24:07
Speaker
I love that and I think that's what podcasts do for me, specifically as well it builds such a great community of people and I mean like I don't even, I sometimes talk to these individuals, once through a conversation like this, but seeing them online and I have been able to see a few of them, a handful of them like in public at events as well. It just allows you to feel safe.
00:24:33
Speaker
Knowing that you've had conversation with these people, you get a sense of who they are, etc. And I do feel community and belonging is such an important role in humanity in general. I agree, this is what people tend to lean towards as well.
00:24:52
Speaker
I love how you explain that. Jen, I have a few more questions. I want to go back to your book for a second. Again, so many themes within your book, obviously, and you talk about issues. Obviously, race is something, sexuality. I feel like mental health is also in there as well.
00:25:15
Speaker
I know you as a writer based on what I've been reading and you have multiple essays that I've read as well. I know these were very intentional. I know that I know they're very intentional. How important was it for you to include these themes or other themes that may come out more than the ones that I've mentioned into this book specifically?
Themes of Race and Mental Health in Writing
00:25:38
Speaker
I think a lot of things came naturally and I also did have readers, right? So there are ways I identify that some of these characters don't. And so I did ask people who have been incarcerated to read this book. I did ask people who are non-binary and queer to read this book as well. And friends who are Chinese to read this book.
00:25:59
Speaker
to let me know, am I leaving anything out that is very culturally specific as well as am I projecting anything that I have absorbed?
00:26:10
Speaker
through media and whatnot, no matter how well-intentioned I am, that I can be projecting these things. And you never know. You know, you ask folks and you pay them and you get your will, but that doesn't mean you did everything right, right, quote unquote. But it's Queens, you know? I was like, you're gonna tell me you're not gonna find any multiracial queer children, like get out.
00:26:37
Speaker
Like, no, that is bonkers to me. And I live near a criminal courthouse. I live near a detention center in where I am. So there is a cop presence near me. And it's very interesting when you talk to people and we're talking about
00:26:59
Speaker
moving them or rebuilding them and all these things and how people don't want these people. That's what these folks said in community council meetings. We don't want these people, meaning those who have been incarcerated and charged in our neighborhood. Wow. We don't want, how do we know we're safe? Like so automatically that projection of
00:27:20
Speaker
Everyone who has been deemed or charged is guilty. Everyone who is dangerous and not that the internal system itself is dangerous and that is not meant to help.
00:27:31
Speaker
You know, it's a layered and complex thing to look at, but I didn't want to, one of the biggest things was by extracting the question of whether Violeta did it or not, we have to look at a something else. And that's what I've noticed in various books that do contain criminal justice or for a fiction more so, especially for young readers. It's like, well, did they did it? Did they do it? Or is the system racist? And I'm like, well, yes, the system is incredibly biased and problematic.
00:28:00
Speaker
but if we extract that from Violetta, then you have to judge her. And did she, do you allow her to be human when she is remorseful and she is upset and she doesn't, you know, and then meeting the other people that she meets in their circumstances and they admit to doing what they did. Like very few people in this book don't admit to doing what they did. So what happens next?
00:28:25
Speaker
It's, it's, I mean, it gives me goosebumps. Honestly, it gives me goosebumps thinking about how the story could go. But I think what I'm excited for is just for readers to really be able to dive in and really, you know, start to think about some of the really hard questions around, you know, how do we validate
00:28:47
Speaker
stories, right? Like that's, especially when the stories don't line up to your values or your beliefs, et cetera.
Challenges in Storytelling and Validation
00:28:56
Speaker
Everyone is going through something, right? Everyone has a right to have a feeling, to feel something as well. And like, what is your reaction when your feelings or values or beliefs don't line up with somebody else's? It's going to be, I mean, again, I'm maybe a little bit biased, maybe.
00:29:16
Speaker
But I really hope that readers find ways to pass this book along because I'm enjoying it. I really, really am. I enjoy YA anyway, but I'm really, really enjoying this book so much. Oh, thank you. Jen, what would you say? You've kind of already explained this, but why should people read it? Why should young adults read this book?
00:29:39
Speaker
I think the biggest thing in writing it was for young adults to see that you can have agency even in the worst situations. I feel as though I've been in so many spaces where people have told me they don't have power. And I'm like, well, what is power to you?
00:29:58
Speaker
Like is power what it is in a workplace is power what it is in a school is power like the ability to buy whatever you want to do whatever you want or is power having a freedom to know who you are and to be able to make these choices when you need to and be able to live
00:30:18
Speaker
your true self or at least be on a path to do that. And I feel like for both Vincent and Violetta, I'm not gonna say what happens obviously, but I think the biggest thing was for them to get to a point, particularly Violetta, of understanding that this does not encompass who she is. This is not all that she is. And for so much of the book, she is told, this is, you did this. You did this, you're awful.
00:30:48
Speaker
You gotta pay for it, you gotta do this. And how people feel about that in terms of a system is how you feel. But for this character and this young biracial girl, I feel like she's kind of made to suffer in a way that doesn't feel fair.
00:31:06
Speaker
And I want us to talk about that. And I want to talk about our value systems and what we're willing to fight for, especially from a young age. Yeah. And I mean, I have had friends and I see it all over the news and specifically people like us, people of color, we get one chance
00:31:27
Speaker
sometimes, which is so unfair. Like we make one mistake and that one mistake really puts us on this journey influenced by other people based on this one experience that changes your entire life. Absolutely. Like that is absolutely, when I think of like, that is so scary for people like us. Like you can't make any mistakes. Like that's it, period.
00:31:57
Speaker
And that's how Violetta literally feels like she can. And for me, telling you, like, I was always good in school when I was, didn't I? Like, that's how I identify with Violetta is like, what if I'm not perfect? And what if I'm, and maybe that is part of a preparation that I didn't, I wasn't aware of for how the world would see me.
00:32:18
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah. And that's, I think that's where my parents came from as well. Like they were saying, like, you need to do everything possible to make sure that you fall in line with the values of other people, whether that is being polite, saying, yes, ma'am, saying no, sir. Um, making sure you're opening the door for the person in behind you, the person, like all of these things. And I think they were really trying to set me up. So I,
00:32:46
Speaker
I don't want to say compliant, but kind of in all those things, like just you need to do what you're told and make sure you do it. And don't leave any questions asked because you don't know how people are going to react, especially in a world where again, people like us aren't allowed to make mistakes. So yeah, it's again, it's the book has really made me think and wonder about a lot of different things. So again,
00:33:12
Speaker
I appreciate you. I appreciate you so much. It's a mutual appreciation fest. It's just a spirit. And you know what I also love? And it's very subtle, but I love that on the chapters, there's little tally marks that are counting down. I mean, it's a very small touch, but when I saw it, I was like, oh, it just again makes, everyone loves a countdown, regardless if they say you don't like count out or not.
00:33:39
Speaker
I think your mind also like allows you just to want to read the book more because you're also seeing it count down to like a time or an event as well so I don't know.
00:33:51
Speaker
if that was your idea, if it came before you. It was, I will take credit. I will take credit for that. And the design team was nice to implement it. When I looked at it, I was like, that is such a nice touch. Because as a writer and educator,
00:34:10
Speaker
I'm reading the book for pleasure, but I'm also looking at just craft and creativity. So when I saw it, I was like, oh, that is such a nice way to subtly talk about the countdown. And it makes you think about this thing is happening really, really fast as well. So I appreciate that touch so much. It was really nice. It was a nice surprise, a really, really nice surprise.
00:34:34
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you for noticing it, too. Of course. I don't expect people to, but it was really nice. Again, it is a really nice touch. Two more questions. I know it's crunch time right now because I think on the book, it literally says like,
Personal Joys and Future Endeavors
00:34:55
Speaker
I don't know, I think things could still be changed. It's not an official copy, but I know you're still going through that process. I'm not exactly sure, but what is Jen doing? Oh, it's at the printer. It's printing. Perfect, perfect. So what is Jen doing right now for joy outside of the work? Because I know you're working. I know you're working. Yes, I am. When you have moments of peace and joy outside of like the busyness, what are you doing?
00:35:25
Speaker
You know, I just, well not just, it was in May, but I joined a gym and I'm not a gym person, like I've never had a, just something, I don't know. But I joined the Lucille Roberts near me, which is an all woman's gym, and I've really been loving it.
00:35:41
Speaker
It is, I love the classes, I love the, it's just chill. I don't know what happened between this and like other places I've been, but just being at this, it's just calming to me and I enjoy going and I make an effort to go to do these machines and just watch and just have my iPod in and put the dance mix from the 90s, early 2000s. And you're like, oh, Spice Girls really were hitting it actually.
00:36:07
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like I was like, get that re-appreciation for some of the things from your youth. So that's been like really giving me something to like go out and do stuff because I work from home now in the pandemic. So it's nice to get out because I'm not going out as much as I used to. Yeah. So that's been the big thing. I mean, there are other things like cookies and socialization and stuff, but the gym has been really coming in, coming in clutch for me.
00:36:33
Speaker
Yeah. I love that. I'm always an advocate for just being active. I mean, people always say like, I can't exercise or exercise hard. I was like, I always try to remind people like exercise doesn't have to be this like elaborate stuff you see online or like killing yourself. Like just, if you can just go for a walk, if you have stairs in your house, go up and down the stairs, if you can, if you can, whatever. Like it doesn't have to be too crazy, but I love advocating for like just trying to be a little bit active.
00:37:03
Speaker
every single day. So I love roller skating. Everyone was roller skating those first two. I have skates that I haven't used. I need to get back into it. But roller skating was really, I mean, I was falling a lot, but it goes back to what you were saying, where you're like frustrated that you're not learning fast enough and conquering it. But I really like roller skating, like get some roller skates or go.
00:37:26
Speaker
Park, all that stuff, really? Get outside, everybody. That's it. What did our parents tell us? Go outside. Let's get outside. That's so universal, because again, growing up in Canada, like an all-Black family, but like grandma, grandfather, I'm all the way in Nova Scotia. I didn't mean New York isn't far from us, but we're in two different countries. But the universal is like Black families. You can't stay inside. You have to go outside.
00:37:56
Speaker
For whatever reason, because you know, it wasn't always like, oh, you need to get, you know, get some sun kids. It's like, no, just get out of this house. Get away. Stop taking up my electricity. Like, go. It's so true. Jed, where can people find you online? What's the best place to find you?
Connect with Jennifer Baker
00:38:19
Speaker
My website is all-encompassing, so it's jennifernbaker.com, and that's J-E-N-N-I-F-E-R-N-B-A-K-E-R.com. And you can link to more about this book, previous books, my writing, my podcasts, upcoming events, all that good stuff. I'm really good at keeping it up to date.
00:38:41
Speaker
Awesome awesome and lastly again, can you share publication date title of your debut by a. yeah so once again forgive me not. August 15 2023.
00:38:58
Speaker
Nancy Paulson Books, an imprint of Penguin Random House. So if you go to Penguin Random House's website, it is there. And yeah, I'm gonna be doing stuff in New York and DC. I hope to come to Canada at some point, Gary. But no current plans to come to Canada so far. And also make sure you check out, I'm from September 19th, from Gary and, is it Oga?
00:39:26
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm psyched for that. Yeah. Thank you. Come down here. I know. Like honestly, one of the, I'm going to stop the recording now, but