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EP. 136 Jason Reynolds on Finding Strength in Vulnerability: Discussion on 24 Seconds From Now
76 Plays2 months ago
Jason Reynolds shares his thoughts on life, the transformative power of storytelling, and the deep influence of his mother throughout his journey. We dive into his latest work, 24 Seconds from Now, which he describes as a love story for the ages, highlighting the intricate connections between love, identity, and personal growth.
Our conversation explores the vital importance of normalizing anxiety and vulnerability, discussing how these themes resonate not only in Jason's writing but also in our everyday lives. We touch on the challenges and hardships that come with embracing our true selves, and how sharing our experiences can foster understanding and connection. The episode offers valuable insights into resilience, identity, and the strength we derive from our shared human experiences.
Website: https://www.jasonwritesbooks.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jasonreynolds83/
X: https://x.com/JasonReynolds83
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Transcript
Introduction & Podcast Attempts
00:00:00
Speaker
All right, welcome back everyone to another episode. This is interesting because we try to do this so many times already, time confusions. And as we were just talking about, um I had done this before with Jason and Kiese. And I'm gonna say that that that podcast is in the vault.
00:00:19
Speaker
We're gonna leave that one in the vault. ah But he needs no introduction, but I'm gonna allow him to introduce himself. I have ah an amazing, amazing individual with me today. Can you introduce yourself? Yeah, yeah.
Meet Jason Reynolds
00:00:32
Speaker
Good good ah morning, afternoon, or evening, everybody. This is Jason Reynolds, the author of a whole bunch of stuff.
00:00:39
Speaker
Jason, how how are our things? How are you doing? Things are good, man. things that in the you know Things are good in that I am healthy.
Health, Exhaustion, and Hope
00:00:51
Speaker
I am making things that I believe in or that I love.
00:00:56
Speaker
ah I am trying to carve out a bit more time for myself. But ultimately, but ultimately i'm I'm good. like i'm I'm all right. i'm you know I'm always in a state of exhaustion. right oh um but i'm But I'm sorting that out too. And soon, hopefully, ah i I'll have some rest coming and and some vacation time or something. I appreciate that too. And I know that speaking of writing and doing the things you love most recently, 24 seconds.
00:01:28
Speaker
I mean, I'm not surprised.
Black Romance & Masculinity
00:01:30
Speaker
I have so many questions. I have so many questions. Why now? And what is the importance around, you know, just like black romance in general, specifically when it comes to males? And I know that I've read a few articles just having you talk a little bit about it, but talk about the process, talk a little bit about what what we can expect in the book. Man, you know, I think so.
00:01:56
Speaker
i It's interesting, Gary, of over the last couple of years, I've really been trying to understand myself as it pertains to ideas and around masculinity. All of my books are about the same thing, right? like All of my books are basically trying to figure out ways to subvert the ideas around masculinity.
00:02:21
Speaker
um Or at least challenge them or deconstruct them or put them on display in ways that feel ah absurd and or um You know a bit more balanced like just trying to I'm i'm wrestling with it right like i'm I'm always wrestling with it in the conclusion that I've come to as of late is That it just doesn't serve me at all um And that it hasn't served me, and it's only harmed me and the people around me. And I'm not sure why I'm holding on to such ah to such a concept as it stands today, right? ah And in the midst of all of this process of trying to figure this out for myself, right? And this is only me, right? I'm not, people always like, and so many men are like, nah, dog, I'm a masculine man and it means this. And I'm like, brother,
00:03:06
Speaker
cool if that's what you know what i mean and what i'm saying is i can't change my name or i can i cant ah can but i'm i'm not interested in changing my maleness i'm interested in deconstructing the clothes that it wears.
Emotions & Male Vulnerability
00:03:22
Speaker
And in doing so, I've had to have some tough conversations. And one of those conversations was me asking myself and many of my homeboys around me, has anyone ever asked you ever in your life how you felt emotionally before losing your virginity? It's not a conversation. and they And they all said unanimously with like, no, one friend even burst into tears.
00:03:47
Speaker
because he realized that that part of who he is and who he was had been completely ignored and dismissed. Instead, it's conversations around sort of like, around, one around you know, womanizing conversations around sort of being, you know, trying to watch my language this time, Gary. One of the conversations around being a horn dog, right? It's like, just go get it, do this, that, and that. It's always it. It's never a when women becoming it, girls becoming it. And in this particular context, I'm speaking about heterosexual boys, specifically in this particular context, even though my gay homeboys is like, it ain't that much different, right? right and but But like this idea that like no one's ever said, hey, how do you feel?
00:04:32
Speaker
Because if they would ask that, most of us would say we feel nervous and afraid and insecure. We feel like we're we're questioning our body image and our bodies, especially black boys who are expected to be endowed and to be ah you know all the stereotypes that come with being a black boy in this country.
00:04:48
Speaker
We're expected to be grown men as 14-year-olds and 15-year-olds. ah We're expected to know what we're doing. right We're expected to know we're We're we're we also feel tenderness and love.
Teenage Love & Stereotypes
00:05:15
Speaker
I was in Australia, they did a poll that said something like, for the Australian kids, something like 80% of teenage boys want to lose their virginities and loving relationships. And 60% of that 80% found themselves to be anomalies just because they don't talk to one another, right? Think about that. Every man, every, Gary, you know this, you're a married man. And the secret about being um a grown man
00:05:44
Speaker
is that all of us really wanna be the little spoon. We never say it, but we all know it. ah our The women in our lives know it. Right? And so what this book is exploring is sort of like what that might look like. How can we talk about the tenderness of black boys, um the the normalcy of black love and of teenage love in general,
00:06:12
Speaker
the the The very sort of pedestrian yet, not that the p is it's almost, sex is a pedestrian phenomenon. It's both. it's the most It's the most interesting and complex yet normal thing we will ever experience. right It's a pedestrian phenomena. And so how do we address the fact that like this is a very normal thing that they want to explore, and yet it has a phenomenal effect on who we become afterwards, but it does not have to be a thunderstorm or a hurricane or an earthquake. It could just be another form of play and communication. right And that's just what that's what the that's what the book is about.
Media's Impact on Relationships
00:06:54
Speaker
Oh, you muted, man. I can't hear you, Garret. I can't hear you.
00:07:07
Speaker
Oh, now I lost you. I can't hear you. I can see you fine, but you're. It says you're muted on my side. There you go. Yeah, there we go. I've already told you this, but it's so funny because you write so many books that are what are needed and so timely. And like, I wish I had that book growing up because but everyone around me, specifically television in the media told me opposite of that. Specifically how to treat a woman as well. Bro, imagine what pornography is there. Oh my gosh. Like, um yeah. And the type of pornography as well. Cause like nowadays kids are able to have access to
00:07:50
Speaker
you mean It doesn't even have to be like naked people. like they are so They can get access to anything at any time just by scrolling yeah any social media. and yeah It's different, man. Yeah. And I think it's so timely because there's so much about what a man should look like and what a man should feel. And having access to something like this could be so beneficial.
Writing Teenage Sexuality
00:08:16
Speaker
So beneficial. I hope so. How are you able to, and I mean, just like your writing style in general, how are you able to stay true to your writing style and the things that you specifically would tackle in other books that you've written
00:08:31
Speaker
into what you're doing now. um Is it written in free verse? oh and What was the process for that? So this one was tricky. um you know as we like there's The other thing about ah talking about sort of the masculin the masculinity thing and all of that stuff is understanding that like you know as a man,
00:08:54
Speaker
it It's really, really, really dicey to navigate the sexual lives of teenagers on the page. And what I mean by that is because of sort of whatever the energy is around like madness and masculinity and all that stuff, it doesn't always feel as safe to the reader knowing that a man wrote it.
00:09:20
Speaker
right It's very different. right it's it's It's interesting. I've been trying to wrestle with this too. right It's an interesting thing that we have to kind of admit and kind of figure out how to deal with. and so I knew that going into it, so I knew that the one thing that could not be written was the actual sex scene. I knew that that I could not, right I would not walk the line well enough to write a sex scene of a boy and a girl who as a for of of of ah of a 16, 17-year-old boy and girl as a 40-year-old man, right? I knew that that would be a... You see what I'm saying? Like, that's a very yeah very tricky thing to navigate, and it's slippery, and honestly, it's too easy for it to slip into something perverse, right? and And so I knew I had to start the story right at that moment and move backward.
00:10:11
Speaker
hu Right. So the story, so the reason it's called 24 seconds from now is because we start chapter one is now, right? We're at right now. who And he's in the bathroom. He's freaking out. He's got the condom. He's going through all of the things that we secretly go
Unique Book Structure
00:10:27
Speaker
through, right? Am I ashy? You know what I mean? How's my breath? My lips dry. Exactly like like all the all the things that we go through. um and And then the next chapter is 24 seconds ago. ah we So 24 seconds from now is the chapter we never get to, which is the sex happens.
00:10:50
Speaker
<unk> guess so as it goes oh should I like that, I like that. Yeah, yeah I like that. So it goes 24 seconds ago, then it goes 24 minutes ago, then it goes 24 hours ago, 24 days ago, 24 weeks ago, and then 24 months ago when they meet. And then it comes back to, and then it ends coming back to the bedroom.
00:11:12
Speaker
and you see a moment of them coming together and and that and that's, you know, I won't spoil the ending, but yeah. That's so crazy. That's so, what is your, ah what is your creative process? Because you, you obviously write amazing work, but like, there's so many layers to what you do. Yeah. Like, how do you get to that point? Like, how do you, do you start from thinking like, do you just like flash draft and then you're thinking of chapters? Because like, how do you, how do you know your chapters are going to be that?
00:11:41
Speaker
yeah That's on everybody. Everyone can't do that. I appreciate that. man you know For me, it's all about like acknowledging what's in the way of things. so It's all about working around what's in the way of things because there's always something in the way of things.
00:11:54
Speaker
right as the great poet Amiri Baraka said, right? there There's something in the way of things. And so for me, this particular situation, it was like the the thing in the way of things is a sex scene. that It's in the way, right? It's the most important part, but not really, but it's in the way. yeah And I need to figure this out. In Long Way Down, it was, you know, time constraint was in the way. And what I mean by that is I couldn't convince people that this happened in a minute of this kid's life if it took them two weeks to read.
00:12:25
Speaker
right The book had to feel like it was moving second by second. You had to be able to turn the pages really fast. right Time was in the way of things. So I had to figure out how to make it work for me. You see what I'm saying? So this door there's always something for me. right Because of the way I choose to make these stories, there's always something in the way of things. And once I can create um sort of a way around it or a way to circumvent that thing, it creates a natural boundary. It creates a format.
00:12:53
Speaker
And as long as I got some walls to play around in, I can be as creative as possible. I love that. Yeah. I love that. And I can't go without asks. So my favorite piece of work that you've done, I mean, again, I enjoy everything that you do, but The Boy in the Black Suit is still my Like, saying hey manu it is, I mean, it was one of the first books that I read from you and it was handed to me
Grief & 'Boy in the Black Suit'
00:13:18
Speaker
from my wife. She was like, you need to read this book. And like, it just the way that it talks about grief and just like,
00:13:28
Speaker
Just black culture in general, when I was able to read a story and it talked about like the different ways that like you know funerals are happening. And I was like, damn, that's like that's home. umm from yeah You said before, I'm from Canada. I live in like Preston, this like black community where like no one knows about. But this when you were talking what you were talking about in that story was exactly the same thing that happens in my home. And I'm wondering, like for those of you who haven't read the story, tell me about the process for Boy in the Black Suit because um the way that grief is talked about is such a ah a way to like give access to kids to you know learn about how to deal with loss and think about loss, which is not an easy thing for anyone to start a conversation around.
00:14:17
Speaker
Yeah, you know, that story was rooted in like so much of my own life. I had lost a lot of people really early and went to a lot of funerals very, very young. And um I was always fascinated by them just because ah because grief grief should be a communal thing.
00:14:40
Speaker
And and you when you experience a funeral, you're experiencing, in the Black community, you're experiencing what we call a celebration, right? But it's also so sad at times. It's hilarious at times, right? It's the it's the most like, it's interesting, because it's there's so much happening. We eat afterwards and talk trash and, you know what I mean? you music it right There's a really wide range of emotions that take place at these things, but also really being in the presence of of a deceased loved one, right which is in and of itself. And and man because of all of our ceremonial dramatics, right where were we're a culture full of theatrics. like That's our jam. We love pomp and circumstance. right we had to and So think about like the fact that we got to carry the casket, and the casket is open most of the time. We got to walk up. You got to look in the casket.
00:15:32
Speaker
You know what I mean? You gotta turn to the people who are the next of kin. You gotta offer them your condolences. Have a seat. Go through the service. You gotta listen to Ecclesiastes, right? It's the time to reap and the time to sow. You gotta go through all of that. The preachers go and preach a sermon. that's going to be so vague. It's going to be so vague. You don't even know this person, right? Like not, not willing enough to, unless, unless this is an old person who been in this church for 45 years and they come together and they know Ms. Jenkins got making best pie and she brought me power when I was a young pastor.
00:16:04
Speaker
Look at all this stuff, right? And then afterwards and afterwards, we carried this casket out. We all go to the cemetery. If it's close to the church, you walk. If it's not, you ride through the city. The lights are flashing. You get all the way to the cemetery. Then we get underneath a tent. And when you get underneath that tent, you got to put the casket back on rollers. And then, stop doing this, I heard. But back in the day, you had to stand there as they lowered the casket into the ground.
00:16:33
Speaker
and then throw dirt, the first handful of dirt, ashes to ashes, that's the third of dirt on the basket. All of this is the most joyful, painful, depressing, funny musical thing you have ever been wearing.
00:16:50
Speaker
It really is, though. It really is. And the truest part of it all that I wanted to capture in this book is that the truest part of it all is that none of that matters when you get home. Because when you get home, the loss is still a loss. And you have to figure out how to carry the weight of the loss. Now I always tell i i tell my young people who have dealt with this and who have read this book, I always tell them,
00:17:19
Speaker
if Think about death and grief the way that you think about a broken knee or a broken ankle or a broken wrist, right? These parts of the body that are jointed, right? These parts of the body that are used to sort of like bend. If you, in any athlete, in your athlete, you know this, if if if you break a if you break an ankle or if you if you roll an ankle or you break a knee, they can they can mend it, but it will never heal.
00:17:49
Speaker
you know It will never heal. It will be commended enough for you to run and jump and make your movements. But every now and then, you will feel the pain and know that it is not the same need. It is not the same need, right? it is safe right and And that is what it means to to to to lose people, right? you you're you're never going You don't have to heal, right? It's not it's not a thing. and I will never get over my father's death.
00:18:20
Speaker
Right, it would never go back to, my my I would never go back to the way it was, it just becomes a new reality. And I learned to walk with it with it with a slightly twinged knee, that's all. And and my life would be just as active and as good.
00:18:33
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I mean yeah you do it so, so great, because there's every moment of a funeral, different types of funeral yeah the book, and it really allows the reader specifically those who are brought up in a black community to understand the layers that are involved to get to that point.
00:18:53
Speaker
of like, yeah, you still you go through all that, but then you still have to figure out, like, how are you going to deal with it when the lights turn off, when the lights around? etc Yeah.
Mentorship in Writing
00:19:03
Speaker
ah Jason, you do an amazing job of sending the elevator back down. I mean, literally, everyone that I talk to speaks very highly of you. You are extremely humble. um Talk about why that's important to you because you do it.
00:19:19
Speaker
um very often without hesitation. um why why is Why is sending the elevator back down important to you? Look, man, because somebody sent it down for me. Let me tell you, this is a part of my story that people don't always get to hear. though I've said it, but it it doesn't it doesn't come up as often. And that's that. When I got into this industry, bro, the second time, because I got in at 21, I got in as a baby.
00:19:50
Speaker
Right, I had my first deal at 21. I just didn't do very well. And so when I got back, and and I couldn't, and then I lost, you know, I got, you know, all the things happen. You get dropped from your agent, dropped from your editor, all that stuff kind of goes on, bad contract, yada, yada, yada, yada. But at 28, 29, 30, let's see, I get back, I think when I was the greatest comes out when I'm 30, right? and And what ended up happening was at this, this is the year 2014,
00:20:20
Speaker
So what has happened this year is Walter D. Myers and Christopher Myers has written their articles in the New York Times, which sort of blows up the industry about its its its lack of representation when it comes to kids of color, right? This is the exact time I'm getting in the game. At the same time, Walter is dying.
00:20:39
Speaker
Walter, who had sort of been a beacon for for black boys and black children in literature for 30 years, his his transition is coming and he's now dying, right? He's somebody I knew. He was a mentor. His son is one of my best friends. And so that's happening. The same time, because his son is one of my best friends, Christopher is connected to a lot of people that I did not know. And so Chris is like, hey, when you go to this event, I need you to meet I got to go and meet Jacqueline Woodson. She's like a big sister to me. She'll get you situated, right? When you go to this event, make sure you talk to Lori Anderson. Me and her daughter grew up together. She'll get you situated. When you get there, make sure you go talk to Auntie Sharon, Sharon Draper. I promise you, man, once she gets to know you, she'll get you situated. Matter of fact, tell Jackie to introduce you to Rudine Sims Bishop. She's the most quoted person in children's literature, and she runs this thing. She'll get you situated.
00:21:38
Speaker
Right. And this is, this is, so I, so I like to make sure Sharon Flake, when I met Sharon Flake, same thing. This all happened at the same time, right? Maybe months, like this is like a matter of three or four months. I'm meeting all of these, these people and they're at the height of their career. Rita Williams Garcia, they're all at the height. This is so Brown girl dreaming has just come out. Uh,
00:21:57
Speaker
ah Sharon Draper's Stella by Starlight was like but like rocking at the time. like all it Everybody is like at a fever pitch, and then this the new kid comes in, and they're like, hey, young man, we hear you the real deal. We'll make a table for you.
00:22:14
Speaker
just tell us what you need. And that's the way it worked. And so I always make sure people know, like when I got in the game, they they made a space for me, right? They literally said, no, no, no, you, you one of us. Like you got you, you in it for the long haul. You really got it. You, you, you, you you really love it. Your heart is in the right place. You really care about this language and you care about these kids, right? You want to tell good stories. You want to have literary integrity, let alone human integrity.
00:22:41
Speaker
You want to make sure that like like that the the stories are entertaining, but hopefully edifying, showing us in a balanced light. You're not afraid. right All the things. right You don't mind talking about it. You don't mind being blackety black. You're not scared. You're not going to cower. Come here with us and let's figure out how to put you in position so that debah Deborah Taylor, who was the biggest one of the biggest librarians in Baltimore at the time, Deborah Taylor pushed me to the forefront, making sure people knew Like this is a kid that we need to be paying attention to. So I say that eight ah none of us just arrive. None of us just become.
00:23:18
Speaker
These people helped to build me and to give me a fair swing, the least I could do is pay it forward. right If I see somebody that I think has the stuff, even if it's just having the fervor right the this to like work hard, people who aren't afraid of critique, who aren't afraid to like really put their nose to the ground stone and get it done, people who who who have a heart for this right and a mind for this, but more importantly, have a stomach to sustain what this industry can do to people.
00:23:48
Speaker
Right. Those people, I'm like, no, come up under this wing. Let's let me let me give you some shelter and put you in position. Absolutely. Why not? We need the more the merrier, the more the merrier. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I appreciate it. You know, but you know what they say, man, you can't be no king unless you can be a kingmaker. Our legacy that the our legacies are solidified by who it is we've helped, man. Mm hmm. I am a strong believer in that. And you do such a great job of that, because honestly,
00:24:18
Speaker
I've talked to a lot of people just through the podcast um and through just like conversations online and meeting people and everyone that I talked to, specifically black people, specifically, yeah um they said that they've you have influence in some sort of way. So I'm just letting you know that I appreciate you because I remember messaging you. I was like, oh, I'm just gonna just check and see. And you didn't even hesitate. You didn't even hesitate. Hadn't talked to you.
00:24:46
Speaker
Every item you leave engaged a little bit online a couple of times, but you didn't even hesitate. So I i appreciate that so much because you didn't have, you don't have to. and you know but You know who else did it for me? Kiese. Yes. Never flinched. I went to, a I met Kiese in a barbershop. Seriously? Yeah. I'm not kidding. Let me tell you something. I met Kiese. Nobody knew who he was yet. Kiese was an editor for Gawker.
00:25:13
Speaker
And so, yeah, Kiese was the editor for Gawker, a which for those who don't know on the podcast was this like. you know, alternative even essay site, like you like a pop culture essay site. And and and he was an editor for this joint. And I was just trying to get anything published by any way, by anybody. And so I had reached out to him. We did a little work together, and but I never met him. And then he had come to Brooklyn to do an event with Darnell Moore.
00:25:47
Speaker
ah What's my name? Michael. The dude who wrote invisible world got the whole Invisible Man got the whole world watching. Michael. Oh, what's his last name? You know what I'm talking about? Michael, I got three names. I know you're talking about. Yeah. And it was one more person who I should know, because I talk to him all the time, or I can't call. But they basically where he essay had a collection has a collection of essays called How to Kill Yourself for Others Slowly in America. And they were doing an event at a barber shop in Brooklyn.
00:26:19
Speaker
And I went to see if I could like meet him. And I had an arc of when I was the greatest. And why not when I get to that, I stand in line, they're signing the books. It's like a hundred people in this hot little teeny barbershop, maybe 50 actually. And I get to him and I'm like, hey, I'm Jason Reynolds. We've worked together you know briefly. I know you know my homegirl Simone and yadaada yada, yada, yada. And he's like, oh yeah. I'm like, man, I wrote this novel.
00:26:47
Speaker
And I would love if you could blurb it. And he was like, and he was like what? For real? Man, I'd be honored to blurb you. It's crazy. He does not know who I am. You don't even know if it's going to be published, bro. He's like, for real? He's like, man, I would be honored. So I give him the arc. And a couple of weeks later, he sends me back, honestly, a blurb the size of the whole back cover.
00:27:14
Speaker
wow And the reason why is because it was the first blurb he'd ever given. Wow. And I was the first blurb I ever got. that' that is I didn't know that story. That's crazy. Yeah, man. That is crazy. i did And I did the same thing with him. I i read Heavy, and then I was doing going through this podcast phase, and I reached out to him, and he didn't hesitate. And the same thing when the book stuff was happening, reached out, didn't hesitate.
00:27:42
Speaker
im mean I totally get it. That's how it has to be for us. No, I totally get it. Jay, I want you to talk about your mom a little bit. You talk about her a lot through the course of podcasts, interviews, et cetera. You also did a podcast with mom. I did. Which is amazing. Thank you. How was that process? Oh, it was the best. Doing a podcast with mom, interacting, et cetera. Because I know the love that you have for her. But what was that process like?
00:28:13
Speaker
Man, it was it was it was a trip um because making a podcast, making a like a scripted podcast is really hard.
00:28:25
Speaker
Right. So like it's not like an interview podcast where you do most of your work is going to come in post. Right. It's like you clean up. It needs to be cleaned up. If anything, you'll make the edits. You'll put in the intro you do. Right. Like we decide this works. And when you're doing like a scripted podcast, bro, it's so much writing. It's so much like it's like a movie. It's like a movie without a screen. And I got all this raw interview footage. So I'm recording my mom as we're hanging out regularly. Every week I'm just turning my phone on or I have a recorder that I got and I'm turning the recorder on. But I would try to use different methods of doing it because she would get hit. It's like there's a machine in the room. It changes her personality. And so
Podcasting with Family
00:29:10
Speaker
like it ah Like, it changes her personality, right? And so I, you know, had to figure that out. And I would usually see that behind her so that she just lost, so that she forgot that it was there. And we would just have our conversations. Then I would go back and I would listen to them all. And I'd be like, and my mother can't, I can't put some of this stuff I can't put on in the podcast. Because my mother is, you know what I mean? Because my mother is an old black lady who will be wild sometimes, right?
00:29:35
Speaker
You got to do an uncut version. Oh my God. ah look When where went where her time is up, I'll put it out. I'm like, yeah. but She was saying some wild stuff. I'm like, man, you can't say this. I can't. you know Nobody is more racist than old black ladies, right? Nobody more prejudiced.
00:29:57
Speaker
It's so true. And I'm like, mom, we can't I can't put this on there. But it was honest honestly, dude, it was a it was amazing. And I have to tell you, I have to be honest, it was it was selfish because I just had an opportunity to get a professional like a professionally produced podcast done.
00:30:20
Speaker
And it was like, well, my mother is 78. And at the time she was 75 and we started working on it. And for me, yeah and for me it was like, you know, I'm going to want this documentation.
00:30:35
Speaker
I'm gonna need this, I'm gonna need her voice crystal clear. like right My dad, I have some some some some some stuff from him that I listen to all the time. you know His voice and his all of it video footage and all of this. and that It means the world to me now. And I know that one day, and to have it so pristine, so produced, it's it's beautiful. It's almost like listening, <unk>s like it's like it's like listening to like a movie, but the movie of our of our relationship. Yeah. It's like an album. Ever. Like an album. Exactly. It's like listening. It's like the songs in the key of Jason and Isabelle. It is. It really is. And I'm grateful. I'll always be grateful for it, man. i always be It was a beautiful. Yeah. It's beautiful. And I think that the process that you guys would have had as well, just like you hanging out, you being there in conversation, I can only imagine.
00:31:28
Speaker
I could only imagine what that looked like. um My look, we I was at a birthday party last weekend. My auntie heard it's a turn 80. Man, I wish I could have had the record in there, but it was a good time. These old spunky, these old spunky ladies, man, like there's, there's so much to be grateful for, but it's also even more to be inspired by, brother. Like what does it mean to have gone through what they've gone through?
00:31:55
Speaker
and to still be able to to to take some time to do their dance and to laugh their lives, laugh their jokes. and you know and And they are sober now, but they still pretend to drink. They they they still pretend to drink. That's so true.
00:32:13
Speaker
a Jason, I want you to share about, um and as much as you can, obviously, ah the the mouthless God Oh, wow. What can I share? What I can share is the entire book is not that book anymore.
Rewriting 'Mouthless God'
00:32:36
Speaker
you know Wow. Yeah, it's not not at all. It's not called that. It's not about that. It's not very different. um It's complete overhaul. And this is the thing, right? this is And this is good. I'm glad you asked this question because this is good because I think writers and whoever listens to this podcast, and but writers especially,
00:32:55
Speaker
I think especially younger writers, writers coming up in the game. It's like, man, it's important to know that that um there are some problems that are unsolvable. a And the only way to solve them is to is to basically reframe your entire, right? So to reconsider the entire conceit of the thing, right? We can try to force it. We can try to bend it.
00:33:20
Speaker
into and into ah submission. But the truth is, is that there are some problems in a novel that just don't work, they just cant that that are unsolvable. And for me, there were too many problems around the idea of a mouthless child. Now, i said as a fabilistic approach and device, I think it's genius still. right but as But as something that has to be executed in a world that's supposed to be our world,
00:33:49
Speaker
It's really difficult because i have that because there are so many questions that one has to ask. right like Why don't they just cut his mouth open? him We live in a day of extraordinary technology. Why don't they just cut his mouth open? right Or does he lose his mouth? is this is Is he born this way? And if he's born this way, ah same thing. Why don't they open his mouth as a child? Second thing is, how does he make it this far? how is he is is it old and Because he's an active, normal kid who doesn't have a mouth. Well, how does he eat?
00:34:20
Speaker
Right. How does he survive? How is he surviving? How is he surviving? Right. And I thought I had answered these questions. And then I started to write the book and realized that. I can't answer these questions, bro. like And some of this also has to do with ability. I think we have to also talk about how like sometimes my our the best of us, right the best of us, our ambitions, outsize our ability. But that is the way that one becomes more able. right like You get better if you if you aim high. right I never want to write a book I know I can write. I only write books that scare me. Yeah.
00:34:57
Speaker
right books Books that I'm not quite sure I'm going to be able to finish. right and so And this one was no different, but it required um extraordinary humility, ah coupled with an extraordinary amount of confidence to just scrap it. I've rewritten this book seven times, eight times. um um I'm finishing up a working draft. What I believe is the working draft over the next week or two. I'm actually around in the finish line right now. And now it is a story about grief.
00:35:28
Speaker
ah Funny, um my my dad died in 2020, so this is all i like where I am in life at the moment, and is thinking about what it means, like what all of this means. you know hey and And it's a story about an island.
00:35:44
Speaker
ah how do How much can I say about it? It's about an island. It's about how grief changes people, right? Perhaps someone is shrinking. Perhaps someone is going deaf. Perhaps someone is becoming invisible. ah Perhaps, perhaps not though, you know, because that's the way I write to me, as you know, it's like maybe, but maybe not, right?
00:36:03
Speaker
kind
00:36:07
Speaker
I appreciate that so much. There's a lot of nuance. There's a lot of nuance. And I think and honestly, I think when I finish it, I honestly believe that it would be far. It would be a much more beautiful story than what I originally was trying to tackle. I think it's um it feels delicious.
00:36:23
Speaker
It feels lush. um It feels like something you kind of want to sink into, I hope, I believe, I hope. And yeah, man, that's all I can say. no's That's dope. And I think it's, I mean, the first thing I could say to that is just I,
00:36:40
Speaker
I think this, for me at least, that moment of you sharing that and being vulnerable and like someone like you who has, you know, but we don't have to name the accomplishments in the books that you have, but for someone like you to be able to acknowledge the fact that you need to go back and rethink, redo, and scrap, which I talk about a lot in the classroom too with kids. like you don't You don't have to take that draft and move it into a publishing phase. You can scrap that if you don't want it. But to hear it coming from someone who is doing it, I mean i think that is so powerful. I think that is so powerful because oftentimes you find yourself forcing yourself
00:37:19
Speaker
to write something or to do something just because whether it's the contract, whether it's the people, whether it's the voices, whatever the case may be. But I think that is so powerful. So I'm um I don't know who's listening, but I might make sure I keep this clip but but because I think that I think that's really, really important. And I appreciate that in all seriousness.
00:37:42
Speaker
um First of all, there's lots of romance in my life. And what I mean by that is is my life in and of itself is ah is a very romantic experience. I'm very fortunate. isn't that It is not quite as saccharine as romance often is, but it's it's a romantic way to live first and foremost. Second of all, let me say this, this book coming out ah is being called the romance, but it's not a romance. um It's not to me. it's ah It's a love story. And they're not the same thing.
00:38:15
Speaker
but They're not the same. It's not a romance. right I think what I'm trying to actually show is that is that things don't necessarily have to be romantic for them to be for for them to be for them to be poetic and for and for them to be loving. and that And that sex, specifically, especially as it begins and that that that beginning time, um the heirs should be taken off of it.
00:38:43
Speaker
the air we let out of it so that we can stumble and fumble our way through it and actually have a good time. Let's take the pressure off. Romance often often is a pressured space. It's performative. It's performative so often. um And so and this is a love story. It's ah it's pure.
00:39:03
Speaker
right It's intentional. It's friendship. It's friendship it's it's it's it's it's humility. It's modesty. It's it's honesty. It's courage. it's It's collaboration and coalition amongst people. right like that's like that's what we're That's what I'm wrestling with. So I say all that to say is, do I have love in my life?
00:39:21
Speaker
Of course, of course I do. A lot of it. Do I have romantic love in my life? That's never anybody's business. Not because ah because I have any sort of, because the answer might be like with everything else in my life and work, maybe.
00:39:36
Speaker
Right. I've heard all kinds of theories. It's like, yo, I think like somebody, I heard somebody once say like, either Jason is a womanizer or he's gay. It is like it like, yeah, I've heard all kinds of interesting things about this. Um, and you know, and to that I say, okay, whatever, whatever you think, right? I don't, I don't know.
00:39:55
Speaker
Okay. First of all, calling me gay isn't and isn't offensive to me. ah and If that's what you think, that's totally fine. but ah But for them to even just label you without even having a conversation or... You're womanizing what I'm offended by. I'm like, what?
00:40:12
Speaker
i you go And look, and here's the reason why, man, and let's be honest, the reason why I won't, and and the truth is, is that, like like I said, there's
Balancing Public & Private Life
00:40:20
Speaker
love in my life. However that shows itself is nobody's business. But but um the reason why I won't ever talk about it or why I'm not explicit about it ah is because I've given away so much of myself.
00:40:34
Speaker
i've People know so much about me, about my mom, my upbringing, about my struggles with this, my struggles with that. I've told, so I've given away so much of myself that there are certain parts of me that I get to protect. And it's not that. Somebody once told me, my buddy Ruman, Ruman Alam, a brilliant writer, everyone should read me, if you've seen Leave the World Behind, and you know what I mean? But read the book as well. He was doing a piece for the New Yorker on me and he asked the same question. He said, yo, it feels like, like, are you, are you hiding something. Right? I was like, no, that's the issues that I'm not hiding anything. I was like, what it really comes down to is that if I have a pie that I've made, and I decide you have of it, that means that the half I gave you is your half. And the other half belongs to me. It's mine. it It's not it's not here. It's just mine. That's all. And that's kind of where i get when we log off this interview. I'll tell you the answer.
00:41:34
Speaker
not I appreciate it. But I'm not interested in that part of my life being for public consumption. and i think i think i think that's so I love that you shared that because I think specifically authors like you and I think about you I think about you know Watson. I think about Alexander. I think about, you know for at least in my world, the individuals that I look up to in regards to Black creators. um You give so much. you're so it's social You already give so much of who you are in your work, in the interviews, in the articles, the journals.
00:42:15
Speaker
um and on the outside, we are so lucky to have that. We are so lucky to have that. right um And then you do the same thing in front of kids, in front of teachers, and you're vulnerable. And you're sharing so many of your experiences within the books as well. like Those are truths of like friendships that you've had, or relationships that you've had, or whatever the case may be. But I love that you shared that you know what like you already you you're giving so much already. ah I think that's a ah great ah great answer.
00:42:46
Speaker
Yeah. am My last question was, where do people find you? But I don't think anyone really needs that. I don't think you got to say it, but you can share. where Where do people find you online? You can find me at at Jason Reynolds 83 had everything. And then ah Jason writes books.com is the website with all the other stuff. Yeah. And you have well, you have the I guess my other any more picture books coming. Yeah, there's another one coming soon. Let's go.
00:43:15
Speaker
Let's go. I think, I guess it's being worked. I haven't, you know, it takes forever for the illustrators. You know what I mean? But it's being illustrated right now. Let's go. Yeah, yeah. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. I appreciate you, man. I appreciate you so much. Of course, my brother. Anytime, man.