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EP.137 Nikki Grimes Rhymes and Reasons: Exploring Children's Poetry
25 Plays4 days ago
Nikki Grimes was born in Harlem and spent her childhood moving through various neighborhoods in New York. As a foster child from a broken home, she faced constant farewells to new friends. In this challenging environment, reading and writing became her lifelines. When she had no one to confide in, Grimes poured her thoughts and feelings into poems and stories. An enthusiastic reader, she would check out library books during the day and read late into the night with a flashlight.
Website: https://nikkigrimes.com/
Instagram: poetrynikki
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
All right, ah welcome back, everyone, to another episode of This Personal. It is, I am, again, I always say I'm so excited. Today, I am i'm going to sit in this moment for a very, very long excited to have a conversation with her. If you don't know who she is, I feel bad for you.
00:00:31
Speaker
You really really need to open a book um I am so honored to have the ah privilege to speak to this lady today Please introduce yourself and feel free if you want to list and read talk about every book that you've written I am here for it yeah
00:00:52
Speaker
I know you don't have to, but I'm here for it. I've been here for a very long time because as of the end of last year, I'm up to 106 books. Oh my gosh. We're not going to talk about all of them. Oh my gosh. Look at this great oil. Wow.
00:01:14
Speaker
Wow. For those of you who don't know, just give us a small snippet of who you are. Oh my gosh. Well, I'm Nikki Grimes. I specialize in books for children and young adults.
00:01:36
Speaker
But yeah, you need to know I'm sort of all over the place in terms of the ages that I write for and the kinds of books that I write because I bore easily. I can't do just one thing all the time. So I'm writing poetry and fiction and nonfiction. um I've got board books and chapter books and picture books and novels for middle grade and for young adults and occasionally for adults. um So I'm i'm hitting on a lot of different pistons depending on
00:02:11
Speaker
you know, the subject matter and the voices that come to me. You know, a story will come in a particular voice and I and i follow whatever that is organically. Sometimes I start out thinking the story I have in mind is, you know, a picture book. And it just isn't happening as I try to write it. And then I finally understand, oh wait, the voice of the story is coming to me.
00:02:41
Speaker
as a 10-year-old, oh, okay, this wants to be a middle grade book, good. And then I follow that and sure enough, that's what it wanted to be. Sometimes it's for, you know, an older audience. And so then I lean into that. So, yeah, I'm very much character-driven. There's sort of two camps with authors in general, broad generalization.
00:03:10
Speaker
author-driven or character-driven, plot-driven. And you certainly need both elements in every story, but character-driven author like myself, that's what I lead with. Sometimes I have a character before I even know what the story is going to be. The character will often suggest the story that I need to write about ah him or her. And they are very bossy.
00:03:38
Speaker
They will tell me you will not put those words into my mouth and remind me that the story is coming through me. I don't have nearly as much control as you would think because it will tell me, no. ah I'm not saying that. I'm not doing that. That is not who I am. And there are always surprises to me. I have this chapter book character named Diamond, Diamond and Daniel.
00:04:08
Speaker
And I'm not sure where she came from because she loves math. Math makes sense to her. It's how she makes sense of the world. And I run in the other direction when it comes to math. I chose my university based on and not requiring higher math, okay? And then here comes this character and I'm like, who are you?
00:04:35
Speaker
Where did you come from? She's like completely her own person, you know. So yeah, writing is strange. Oh my gosh, you...
00:04:48
Speaker
i i ah again I appreciate you so much and I'm going to continue to say this while we're here. like You really have set the precedent for quality of writing. um You write a lot, you have a lot of books, but one of the things I love about you the most is that your quality stays the same.
00:05:06
Speaker
You are so versatile in what you do. um And I love Diamond Daniels as an elementary teacher. We love talking about her attitude and how she walks the world. Like we love everything about her. um I love, I mean, some of your most recent stuff, like a walk in the woods. Like you do such a great job of capturing moments. Thank you.
00:05:34
Speaker
and I mean, yeah, I guess but I have a lot of questions for you, but my my question is always like, how do you, one of the questions is like, how do you always do it? How do you always hit the mark? um How do you know you hit the mark? Or is that not even something you think about? Because I know you consistently write for black and brown people. I know that is something that is always on your mind when you're um putting the the pen to the paper. So ill we'll come back to that. But first I want to know about Lil Nick
00:06:05
Speaker
Who is Lil Nicky? Tell us about Lil Nicky. How do I don' want talk about that? You know, I had a really, really rough childhood come out of trauma, broken homes, grew up in and out of foster care, bounced around a lot. So,
00:06:33
Speaker
Part of the reason that I write, I mean, I was always fascinated with words from day one. I used to do word puzzles and jumbles and I'd make up my own games.
00:06:47
Speaker
I'd go to the dictionary and flip through my eyes closed and I'd pick out a word and then I'd figure out all the different ways I could use that word. So I was always about word play and poetry in a very general sense is really wordplay. And so it was that wordplay that led me to the genre I'm most known for. I work in other genres, but poetry is absolutely my first love and my first language. And it's, you know, I i go back to it again and again.
00:07:20
Speaker
But I love, I love language. I was fascinated with the idea that you could write something down and someone, you could write something funny and someone a thousand miles away could read it and laugh. That words on paper are that powerful. And so I was hooked in that way ah early on. And it was for the first, you know, I don't know, 10 years probably writing was ah coping strategy. It was how I got through the world.
00:07:56
Speaker
Reading and writing were my survival tools. And my first writing came out of just being you know frustrated and and full of you rage and questions and just all kinds of mixed up mixed up feelings and needing to get them out of me somehow. And getting up one night and just feeling like I was going to burst if I didn't get these emotions out and grabbed a piece of paper and a pen and just started to write, you know, what was on my mind, what was on my heart, what, you know, the the feelings I was having. And at the end of it,
00:08:45
Speaker
realizing while nothing had changed, I felt lighter and and I could breathe. And I realized I've hit on something. I wasn't old enough to be able to articulate it, but I knew whatever this thing was, it was magic and I had to hold on to it. Wow. Wow. So I would go back to it, you know, again and again,
00:09:17
Speaker
I love that and I think ah talk about it I've talked about it before, how writing is such a form of like liberation. It can really allow one to release so many things that have influenced us. And I really, really love that. I really, really love that. I think that is so important to share.
00:09:42
Speaker
I think it's great that you were able to find that. Nikki, were there people around you during that time influencing you to write? All right. What I talked to you about, I wrote about in a poem called isolated Isolation Station in my memoir, Ordinary Hazards. but you Have you read this? Yes.
00:10:05
Speaker
but okay This was the poem ah try where I tried to capture that. The house was full but with strangers and I was there by myself in the dark in a tiny pocket of a room with a tiny bed to sleep in and little space for the fears I'd packed in my suitcase, which makes no sense because why would I bring them with me?
00:10:32
Speaker
And the night sounds far into the city girl left me tossing and turning. There was no more room in my head to hold the anger rising like steam, searing the edges of my brain. There was not even a shelf where I could stack the questions crying out for answers that wouldn't come. Why did mom have love liquor more than Carol, more than me? Why did daddy let strangers take us away? Why did grandma refuse to come to our rescue? ah Why love us? us enough? Why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why stop?
00:11:16
Speaker
I leaped out of bed, switched on the light, grabbed a piece of paper and a pen, stabbed the page and let my thoughts gush like a geyser shooting high into the moonless sky. Then falling down on the page, I held captive till every line was stained with my feelings and the heat of them finally had a chance to cool and suddenly I could breathe.
00:11:46
Speaker
Breathe, breathe. And there was once again room enough in my head and my heart to just be.
00:12:04
Speaker
Then I closed my eyes and it was morning. Oh my gosh. costed It captures so many moments and feelings. And it says so much about you as a writer, like, that alone. Like, you know you did it if if if you were to tell, if someone was to ask you, what is your story? And you were to give them that, that really gives them such an image of so much of why you started writing, so much of the things that you had to
00:12:45
Speaker
you know, just face at such a young age. And I think it's such a testament to to who you are as a person today oh yeah because you were given every choice not to, to write, not to lean into the things that that you love the most. And what what what continues to inspire you to be creative, to evolve as a writer,
00:13:13
Speaker
during today, because again, as you mentioned before, like you have over like 100 books and you've done so much. Like what makes you continue to feel inspired to write today? Well, for one thing, I'm always looking for something new. I really appreciate and embrace a challenge. And I mean, there's plenty of them in the world. There's lots of things still to write about and to explore.
00:13:43
Speaker
But i I have learned the value of walking into my fear. So if I get an idea for something and it scares me, I know that's exactly the thing I need to lean into. I'm going to learn something. I'm going to grow in a way that I wouldn't otherwise by following that path. um And I still do at times write to work through things.
00:14:10
Speaker
I came back very much to almost daily writing during the early days of the pandemic because it just was so wild and, you know, the protests were going on and just all of it was just so much. And I found I had to write just to kind of cope. And it was really interesting because i I would post some of these poems online and I found out they were doing for other people what they were doing for me. As I was trying to work out something for myself and I was sharing it, other people were saying, yes, that was what I'm feeling too. Thank you for saying that. you know Thank you for giving me the words for for what I'm feeling right now.
00:14:56
Speaker
So there's still that element of it. But they're just there are still so many ah intersectionalities that that have never been written about, especially in the field of children's literature, but in general. So I'm really excited about a book coming out, I think, next year. It's hard to keep up.
00:15:22
Speaker
i Years ago, I'd done a ah picture book biography of Bessie Coleman, the pilot. And in researching her, I discovered that her father was Choctaw. And so then I started thinking about this character who was Black Choctaw and playing with idea an idea for a picture book about him. And It ended up in a file. I forgot about it. I mean, I completely forgot about it. Depth for decades. And then last year, the year before I started working on my estate planning. And so one of part of that was going through my files so that I could identify literary product for anybody who comes after me. So they don't have to go through every file. I have a lot of files.
00:16:20
Speaker
to figure out where the you know where the literature is. That meant I had to read things. I still have to do more of that. I haven't gone through all my files. But so I started this process. And then one of the files was this story um about this kid who who was afraid of the dark. And the way his his mom dealt with it was to introduce him to ah the dream catcher.
00:16:47
Speaker
Right? And so it was a story about that. So I come across this thing a couple decades later, whatever it is, and I realize I don't even know if I get to tell this story now because the landscape has changed. We're all about own voices. Do I even, you know, do I even get to tell this story now?
00:17:07
Speaker
So I contacted um one of my native friends, who's an author, and I said, Sin, what do I do with this? And I tell her about it, and she says, send me a copy. And she reads it, and she comes back with a couple of suggestions. And one of them is to um is to collaborate with a Choctaw author.
00:17:32
Speaker
And there was somebody who she's been mentoring who does middle grade. She's never done a picture book, but you know she said, you know, check it out. And um and I said, you know, that's interesting to me. So we met online and talked and we clicked immediately. And so we we started working on this and I ended up revamping the story. I i set aside the whole original story because I realized, well, first of all, you know, other people have written about dream catchers. It's not like, and and I was going to work to, we were going to bring in elders and make sure we had the, you know, the the ah the permission and authority to to do the subject matter. But I realized in the process, wait a minute, there's something else going on here that's more important.
00:18:28
Speaker
There are no books about black indigenous characters, period. Let's lean into that, because that matters, right? So I changed up the story, and now it's about same emotional issue. He's dealing with fear. But instead, the the response this time is his mother introducing him to ancestors on both sides of his family.
00:18:58
Speaker
who proved to him that he comes from such strength. He has no reason to be to be afraid of dreams. On his mother's side of the family, there's an ancestor who survived the Trail of Tears. On the father's side of the family,
00:19:19
Speaker
It's an ancestor who survived the Tulsa Race Massacre. Oh, my. So I can talk about both things. This is in your archives? I I get to talk about both things in this picture book. and ah And Stacey and I now worked on it together, and and I'm just so excited about it. But it also woke me up to the fact that there are all these other people groups
00:19:48
Speaker
You know, we have, there are so many intersections of black people with Japanese, with Italian, with, you name it. And you go to the shelf, you don't find them anywhere. So there's all these people groups left that we'd still need to, you know, bring into, into the literary foal, into the canon, and also moving in another direction to encourage the storytellers among these groups to start writing their own stories. So there's tons to keep me excited and motivated and inspired for longer than I'm going to be here. I would ah pay big money to look at your archives.
00:20:36
Speaker
it's if I would pay big money to do that. Nikki, you do such a great job online. I have two questions for you. Number one is, I think you you do such a great job online talking about your highs and lows. um For someone who is so accomplished as a writer, you still share about manuscripts not passing or deadlines. And I think that's one of the other reasons why I enjoy you so much because you keep it so real. For someone who
00:21:09
Speaker
again, is so accomplished, you still share that. You can still struggle, like you're still human. You don't just share it your wins online. And I really, really appreciate that. For someone who is very new into to publishing, seeing someone like you talk about those experiences and how you navigate them um has been very, very helpful for me. um So I in, which you are, right? It just makes sense. Like in ah and my mind, it's like, she's superhero. She is like flying through brick walls and knocking it. But of course, you have moments where a manuscript doesn't work or everything isn't going the way that you want it to. And and you do a really good job of just letting us know that.
00:22:01
Speaker
online. and And again, I appreciate that because not everyone does that. And I mean, they don't have to. um But for someone like you, it it really shows um who you are as a person. Thank you. Yeah. And everybody struggles with things, you know, this whole mystique of, well, you know, you just get that, that first contract. And after that, you know, it's, you're sailing and yeah everything is wonderful and automatic. And like, no,
00:22:29
Speaker
You talked to Jane, and Jane talks about this all the time. Jane Yolen, who's, what is her book count, is like close to 500 at this point. I mean, she's been here since forever. And she constantly was, well, have these posts where she says, yeah, well, you know, two things rejected today, but I got one, yes, you know, something else. And people were like, what? Exactly. This is like, it's, you know, this is what goes with this territory, you know.
00:22:59
Speaker
And so you just have to figure out how you're going to navigate it and who you are and whose you are and understand that and work, you know, from that space, you know, and you just keep going. Yeah. one And if you're not prepared for that, it really puts you at a disadvantage. I don't want people to be at a disadvantage. This business is hard enough when you know what you're doing and you know all of that.
00:23:26
Speaker
But if you don't know these things, it just, you know, for some people it becomes impossible. And for that reason, I started working a couple of years ago, i was I was ill for like a year, a little over a year. And almost died twice, didn't know if I was still going to be here. And I i was really driven to start work on a book,
00:23:54
Speaker
that I was like, okay, this may be the last book I get to write, but I have to write it. And it's a ah book about the children's book business, um, that breaks it down. You know what the highs and lows are, what the struggles are, just really basic things. Why and how to read a contract, you know, why and how to read royalty statements, you know, things like that, but also,
00:24:23
Speaker
talks about side hustles, you know, and look at the different things that various authors do to make a living while they're, you know, pursuing their art to things like self care and what that looks like when you're in this business and why, you know, it's an important thing.
00:24:47
Speaker
So it's, ah and it's, it's very, as my editor says, it's a very robust book. 39 chapters worth <unk> like wow but And I and I was really driven to write this thing because I kept waiting For like an MFA program or not program to start teaching the business You know decade after decade and it's not happening and people are rustling with the same things Now that they were when I first came into the business what 47 years ago. i've said This is ridiculous. I who are burning out, ah some who leave the business you know out of frustration, people who aren't earning as much as as they should because they don't even understand their value in the marketplace. And all of these things have to do with a lack of knowledge, a lack of information. That's ridiculous. If you're going to leave the business, leave for some other reason, not because you don't know something.
00:25:49
Speaker
you know that is knowable. Now, I understand that a lot of artists are allergic to business. And so even when they have the information might not follow it, that's then that's on them. But I want to make sure people have it. bright and And so that's been like my biggest project for the last couple of years. um And that's scheduled.
00:26:18
Speaker
for publication that's next August. I love that. And it's so interesting because like you... the i like The next question was actually, you often tackle tough conversations or difficult themes, um but you craft them in a way that really resonates with young readers. But at the same time, you can give it to an adult, a young adult, a middle schooler. um And there a I'm talking specifically about your picture books.
00:26:55
Speaker
What is the process of you doing that? Because that is, like for one, not everyone can do it. And number two, you do it in a way that makes it so universal at the same time. right So you have this difficult topic, but at the same time, you're able to make it in a way that it really is able to connect with all facets of life. like What is your process for that? is there What's the magic, Nicky? What's the magic?
00:27:24
Speaker
Well, I don't know about magic, but I always seek to climb into the skin of the character I want to write about, to look at the world through his or her eyes, from his or her perspective, and then to do the storytelling from that place. Because if I do that, it's going to be true. Can you say that again? I love that. Can you say that again? I love that. Climb into the skin.
00:27:53
Speaker
of the characters I want to write about so that I can look at and speak about the world through their eyes from their perspective. And if I do that, it's going to be true. And if i it may if it takes me a minute to like get into that headspace, well, then I read and I look around me and I talk to the young people in my life. And you know that that voice is always there there. They're all around me. I don't have to look far to find them, but ah sometimes you just have to tune your hearing into you know that character, that you know child of that particular age that you want to that you want to address. And of course, i I go back to my own childhood, which is very much a lie for me.
00:28:45
Speaker
So I can tap you know tap into that. But when it comes to making sure the the language, the dialogue aligns with what kids are using at that moment,
00:28:57
Speaker
I'm listening to the kids around me for that. I can tell. I can totally tell. I can totally tell because you're you're every time you release something, whatever calendar year that is, it's so fresh and it's so relatable. And of course, like it's it's the only way that it could be relatable. You're still tapped into the culture and what kids are into and how they're navigating things and I love that about you so much because you you continue to grow for who you are you still continue to grow and that's growing like being able to be like hey I'm not going to just like do what I did many many years ago I'm going to continue to like push myself to to reach the kids of today as well and you do such a phenomenal job of that you're just
00:29:43
Speaker
inspiration for generations for young readers and writers will continue to grow for forever. What advice would you offer those who are, you know, seeking similar long lasting like impact in regards to like body of work? Because your body of work is, I mean, we talked about it early on, is like top tier, what what advice would you have to to young writers that are trying to to do similar?
00:30:18
Speaker
One thing I always like to encourage is that you read broadly. Don't just read the particular genre you're interested in. Read everything because every genre has something to teach you. And you don't know what might work for you, what might click for you, unless you explore it. who And to try different things. It doesn't cost you anything to try. Maybe you have an idea and you decided you're going to write it in a particular way, but try it a few different ways. Maybe change up the character who's the main speaker.
00:31:01
Speaker
try a different gender than you usually write through and see what that might open up for you. you know And don't don't be afraid to do that. We learn so much in play. Remember to play always. You're going to learn things as you play. and But that that reading piece also is huge. Read all kinds of books by all kinds of authors. You will find some that are closer to your voice and pay attention to those because people always ask, you know, what do you do when if you get writer's block? I tap into those voices. For me, there are three people I go to if I am blocked. It doesn't happen often, but if I am blocked, I will read a little Lucille Clifton or ah Gary Soto or Jay California Cooper. Any of those
00:31:56
Speaker
will take me back to my own voice. Just a few pages and something will open up, click, and I'm like and that i'm back where I need to be. to And as you read it as you're reading, you will figure out who those authors are for you and have them sort of you know just in your back pocket. You get to that place where you're stuck and just read a little bit of of those particular authors and and that will I always shake something loose.
00:32:28
Speaker
Thank you for that. I think that is such great advice. And before we go again, I wanna just share how much I appreciate you as a writer who's just released their first book in October and someone who has, you are that person for me. When I am not having a voice, I look at your work and I'm always trying to read as a writer and I am constantly looking to see like, what what would Nikki do?
00:32:56
Speaker
What would Nicky do? that' That's what I asked myself. What would Nicky do? So I'm honestly cherishing this moment so much because you are someone who I genuinely enjoy and appreciate and you are constantly sending the elevator back down and reaching out and sharing information and I just appreciate the space that you've created for writers um because if it wasn't for you, people like me wouldn't have had opportunities. um Your voice is so important in this work, and I appreciate it so much. So from the bottom of my heart, I really genuinely do appreciate you, and I thank you for spending time with me today. My pleasure. Yeah, you were awesome.
00:33:45
Speaker
Nikki, where can, I mean, again, I hate asking this, but there may be people out here who are not sure what's happening in the world and who this is, but where can people find you online? If people are looking for you online, where can they find you? You can find me on Twitter, which I refuse to call by that other name. You're so tapped in. You are so tapped in. And on Facebook. And you can also find me on Instagram.
00:34:17
Speaker
Awesome. And active, like very active too, which I think for a lot of authors, I mean, I get it being active online can be very difficult because you were working with, you mean just writing. Oftentimes you also still have other jobs and it's busy, right? Yeah. So you're often pretty active, which I appreciate too. So um thank you for your time. Is there books that you would like to share that you have coming out recent like soon? Is there things that you can share?
00:34:50
Speaker
Well, not this year. I mean, next year I have the couple coming out. I have, let's see, I think in January, what do I have? Glory to, which is a follow up to glory in the margins. And that's for adults that comes out, I believe in January. Yay. And of course,
00:35:19
Speaker
Stronger Than, that was the a story I talked about with the black indigenous character. His name is Dante, by the way. And ah one called A Cup of Quiet, because I'm very much concerned with books that show black characters engaging in nature. So this is another book along those lines.
00:35:48
Speaker
um That's what A Walk in the Woods was about. That's what Southwest Sunrise was about, moving into that space. So um those are coming out. And then, of course, the the big book at the next fall will be the business book, which I originally called B is for Business, and then I had a long second title.
00:36:10
Speaker
And the publishers already told me they want to change the title. So I don't know what it's going to be called. But it's covered. All we know is it's covered. I know it's covered. but We appreciate you so much. Sending all of the flowers your way. And I'm sending you you all the best wishes as well. I want you