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EP. 128 Ellen Oh, STUCK between cultures and WRITING for Middle School
62 Plays5 months ago
Acclaimed children's book author Ellen Oh takes us on a captivating journey, sharing insights into her diverse literary portfolio and the personal experiences that have shaped her writing.
From her early days as a lawyer and college instructor to her transition into the world of children's literature, explore Ellen's path to literary success. Delve into the inspirations behind her middle grade novels and her love for this age group. Discover how Ellen's own experiences navigating the complexities of being caught between two cultures - American and Asian - have influenced her narratives and characters.
Join us as we unpack Ellen's passion for creating diverse, relatable stories for young readers. Learn how her involvement with the "We Need Diverse Books" organization has empowered her to champion representation and inclusion in the world of children's literature. Prepare to be inspired by Ellen's unique voice and her mission to uplift underrepresented experiences through the power of storytelling.
Website: https://www.ellenoh.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elloecho/
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Transcript
Introduction and Greetings
00:00:01
Speaker
All set? Awesome. Welcome back everyone to another episode. i I'm always excited for my guests and I always say this, but I actually got to meet one of my favorite people in the world, honestly. It's because I've read absolutely everything that she's created um most recently last year during my tour. So I really, really appreciate the time that I'm about to spend with this person, but I'm going to allow her to introduce herself.
Introducing Ellen Oh and Her Work
00:00:31
Speaker
Hi, I'm Ellen Oh. I write middle grade and young adult novels. I still am trying to write a picture book. I'm very, very jealous of picture book authors. It's really hard to write a picture book. And I'm also a founding member of We Need Diverse Books, which our mission is to make sure that all children can see themselves in the pages of a book, which we know is so important. ah And let's see, I'm originally from Brooklyn, New York. I live right outside the Washington, DC area in Rockville, Maryland. And oh, that was my phone. And I think that's it.
00:01:15
Speaker
i'm I'm so excited that you're here. You are very humble. but Very, very humble. um I love absolutely everything that you do and what I think you do um for literature, children, education. The whole gamut is just absolutely incredible. So before anything, I appreciate you um for always pushing the needle and always striving for what you believe is the right thing to do in regards to humans. um So I appreciate you so much for that. um
00:01:48
Speaker
you are You're, honestly, you're a phenomenal human, so thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. No, thank you. So i I always ask this question, I'm so curious, and I've read about you and I've seen bios about you, but now I get to hear it from you. um Can you tell me a little bit about Little Ellen? what who Who's Little Ellen and what are some of the things that you were brought up with, um the places that you would have come from, etc.?
Childhood Experiences and Representation
00:02:16
Speaker
so little ellen um was a quite an angry little child I was the I don't know why but I think it's actually because my dad he would always tell me like stories about scary things that are going to eat
00:02:35
Speaker
bad children named Ellen. So I you know always like had to be very aware of all the you know scary things in the world. And also, I was growing up in New York. And you know I'm a Gen Xer, so that means I was growing up in what at the period where people were just like really in your face about racism. right and um like you know It's not a comfortable thing growing up that way. It does affect you in a lot of ways. And I say this, I never saw some good representation of myself in a book. And I didn't know how much that affected me until I was much older in college, I think. And I read The Joy Luck Club.
00:03:20
Speaker
And I was like, wow, you know, it's kind of that mind blowing experience when you never know what you didn't know because you never saw it. And then you see it and you're like, wow, this is what it feels like to read a book and see yourself and your family and your community and not just your reading it, but the whole world is reading it. Right. That was a moment where I realized that I had internalized so much. self-hatred and so much like oh just feeling like age being Asian American was being almost nothing like you know I think Asian Americans say that a lot I hope what maybe my generation more than newer generations I hope ah but it's that feeling of being stuck between two cultures where one culture is telling you
00:04:14
Speaker
that you will never be American enough, right? Because you will always be the perpetual outsider, the perpetual fork. And then the other side that says, you're not Asian enough, you know, don't even try to come in and pretend that you're Asian, right? Being in between made me a very angry person, like an angry child, angry teen. And then when I started to discover my appreciation and my love for my culture right that's really when I started to be more accepting of myself but I don't think I ever got rid of the anger I'm only now starting to get less angry because I'm tired yeah yeah much more stuff I feel that need that you know the
00:05:08
Speaker
that we have to be angry about right now And also, man, I'm tired. Of course you are. Of course you are. And it makes you're making me think about so many things. Like, did you have a presentation in school at all in regards to friendships, in regards to teachers? um Did you have that? I had a little bit, cause I grew up in New York, so you do have some, um yeah you know, you do have a lot of Asians, here but it's not the same as like Asians from Southern California, right? It's a different experience, you know, Asians, Midwest Asians. I mean, I don't even know how you're an Asian from Alabama, Arkansas, and not come out with some serious issues. who um So like, i I feel like because my community,
00:05:57
Speaker
was there for me. It might might not have been as bad as if I was growing up in Kansas. yeah but Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it would be very different. It definitely would be very, very different. Right. Yes. I recognize that there are many stages of that, like of the anger and feeling the other like Southern Californians need to shut up. They don't know that experience that much. ha Right. Like my husband actually grew up in Maryland and he okay. being the only Asian in his whole grade. I've never had that experience, um but I still have had that experience of being the minority. Of course, of course. And I know, again, based on just like reading your books and seeing your bio multiple times, you've also explored multiple um avenues in
Career Transition: Law to Writing
00:06:50
Speaker
regards to education. so
00:06:51
Speaker
um want I don't know if you're still practicing, but there is a point where you have background in being like a lawyer, which I think is amazing. um Tell me about the journey with being a lawyer um and how did that transition happen from being a lawyer to being a writer to being, I think it was like a professor or an instructor in college as well. Like tell me about that transition. Okay. So I, I'm the typical Asian story of having the dragon mom that was like, you're going to be a doctor. Cause I said you're going to be a doctor. I went to, uh, I went to college young. I think I was, I just turned 16 when I started at NYU and, uh, like, you know, at 16, you do whatever your parents say. And I did premed and I hated it. I really, really hated it. And I was totally, I was totally into the idea of being a prosecutor. Like that was just a glamorous idea, right? I don't know, I think law and order had started. that no At some point, I just was like, and you know, really just
00:08:06
Speaker
so into the idea of being a prosecutor, and that's what I wanted. It made sense. like When I was younger, my favorite book was like The Count of Monte Cristo, and I had this revenge complex. So I'm like, yes, I'm going to be a prosecutor. Bad guys. like That was my mindset. So I said I went to law school, and when I switched, my mom didn't speak to me for a year, and I was living at home. So that was an interesting like you know
00:08:33
Speaker
ah But yet then I got into law school and I went to Georgetown Law School and I thought, okay, now I'm going to go the path I want to. mo I just happened to graduate when the market was the worst for lawyers. ah So like all my plans of going into and being a prosecutor kind of got ah you know just sideswept and I ended up going into a firm which I hated and so then like this whole different kind of Avenue of law opened up which is just not as fun and interesting and Very different from what I imagined and basically I ended up being a contract lawyer But I did a lot of not like I couldn't stand being at private practice So I ended up going at the nonprofit route no was and I was in
00:09:20
Speaker
working for public broadcasting. And then I was working for the National Wildlife Federation. And that was like much more like my speed, but I'm still only like contracts attorney and um round then. And this is where the writing comes in. It was, this is how long ago it was. It was the year 2000. And Time magazine, one of the Covers for Time magazine was, you know, man of the millennium, Genghis Khan. And I was like, wow. Genghis Khan, he's Asian. I was like, this magazine is celebrating an Asian man as the man of the millennium. I'm like, wait, I don't know enough about Genghis Khan. So I picked up a biography. Wow.
00:10:05
Speaker
and And here's the funny thing, because you know, when you're when your education is very Western-centric, you don't learn a lot of Asian history, right? here I learned all this Korean history I had never known. And wow fascinating yeah is it In a biography of a Mongol, I learned about Korean history because you know they took over everything. So I learned you know Chinese history, Korean history, and I was like, wow, this is so fascinating. I want more. And what I found was there's not.
00:10:38
Speaker
i can in the States start at the Korean War and they don't really have anything. So I said, well, how do I look up more about Korean history? And I just happened to, well, so my organization that I was last at had a big reorganization and the general council that I loved was leaving and I was being offered a general council job, but I was reporting to someone I wasn't that keen on.
00:11:09
Speaker
and My husband said, and just quit, just quit, and then work on that book that you said you wanted to work on. And I was like, yeah, okay, I will. But I had this like, I'm i'm and so Asian, like they my parents just beat it into me, they have to always be working. And I was like, I can't just work on a book. Of course. I decided I would teach at George Mason University. And so I was a adjunct professor there. Um, and which was great because then I had the whole library system or the university library system at my fingertips. And so lots of research that way, right? Through journals, like who knew? who Um, so I learned a lot and I started writing and that, um, but I got a three book deal, which was my prophecy series.
00:12:05
Speaker
And at that point I decided, okay, well, now it's starting to get hard
Focus on Middle Grade Literature
00:12:10
Speaker
to juggle deadlines and kids. um Also, I started to work on we need diverse books. And so I just decided it to stop teaching. I wasn't practicing law and I focused on writing. I focused on starting a nonprofit organization, which that was a lot of work. ah Yeah. That's so real. I ended up here. Wow. and and that's it's so I mean, I have so many questions because I've seen we need diverse books for so long. um And the work that you guys do for everyone, um authors, educators, children, parents, homes, et cetera. I want to talk about it, but I have so many questions about your journey.
00:13:02
Speaker
I have so many questions on your journey. I want to go back to, um not too far back, but like when was the point where you were like, I want to write stories for kids. Like I want to generate these ideas of like middle. You write phenomenal middle grade stories, like phenomenal. Like why middle grade? Like what made you think like, oh, I think this is the lane that I want to go into. Because you could have done adult, you could have done something else. No. feel like not for me and i I wrote like two or three terrible horrible no good adult books that ah right just it was like pulling teeth right and it wasn't for the lack of research I did so much research so I was well well versed in
00:13:49
Speaker
the topic and I wrote it, but it was like pulling teeth, writing everywhere. It felt hard and difficult and and just and was a not it didn't feel kind of natural to me maybe. Maybe it was a voice thing. Whereas when I started writing, I started with prophecy, which I actually wrote middle grade version. That was the draft I started. Interesting. And then the agents that I got made me push it up. And so I ended up with a YA novel. Wow. Started middle grade because the protagonist was the young 12 year old prince. I didn't know that. Yeah, don't talk about this. ah but like so and i When I do talk about it. So this is how I say it. I started the story.
00:14:39
Speaker
with the prince, you know, who everybody thinks is the hero. And then I realized that, well, because this the story is all about how, no, it's not the prince, it's actually his girl cousin. And then once I realized that, like, it really made more sense to tell the story from her perspective, and she needed to be older, right, to be kind of the hero of the world. ah That's really how that started. and and And to be honest, I think middle grade is where I am, I feel most comfortable because I think I have the, like, i inside I'm like a 10 year old child, you know, just who writing. And I just had my young adult novel, Kima, and, you know, writing scenes with like, oh,
00:15:26
Speaker
okay only like a 10-year-old kid, right? e again So middle grade, it's it's fun, it's joyous. And I think it's because when I started writing, my kids were that age, right? They were in that space and they were just constantly in my head. And I do think that who surrounds you at the beginning of your writing journal journey is very fundamental to how you engage as an author too. I 100% agree with that yes yes yes yes and I can like it gave me goosebumps to you saying that because I can vividly remember
00:16:11
Speaker
my like aha moment with my cousin Shante Grant. I speak about her very often in presentations and whenever someone asks about my influence and she was someone in our community, she wrote books that looked like me about my community, she published them and then she did a workshop at my high school. And it was an unspoken word and the way she allowed me to play with words. I was like, wow, I don't have to follow a specific format when I'm sharing my story. I don't have to spell the words the way they're spelled in the dictionary. I can spell the words the way that I actually say them and that like
00:16:52
Speaker
really transform my thought process in regards to what a writer looks like. So when you say the people that are surrounded around you like are such a huge influence, I totally hear that and I can see why you would would have felt that way as well. um and i want Can you tell me more about your love for middle school kids? Because my wife is a middle school teacher um And I think middle school kids are so quirky. I think they always have fun stories. um But there has been a lot of talk. And i' ah i'm I'm online quite often usually looking at sports. But there has been a lot of stuff about like how middle school, not necessarily um middle school books, but the middle school is kind of like in this place right now where it's not getting enough attention.
00:17:41
Speaker
um why why Why is middle school so special? Because it is. It really, really is special. It's a special place for writing. So can you tell me why is it special for you?
00:17:53
Speaker
So ah as you just mentioned, you said school visit had changed your life, kind of, right? I do think that authors, especially authors from marginalized communities, need to go into schools because kids need to see them. That is so important. but especially in middle school. There's no doubt in my mind that middle school is a living hell. Just period. Think about it. You got hundreds, thousands of kids in the more torturous period of their life with hormone and hormones and and just like, you know, they start to stink, you know, and um they're feeling all emotional. It's a lot. It's a lot.
00:18:37
Speaker
What's going on in that period? like I tell parents that your little kids that are so cute when they're babies, as soon as they hit 11, 12, they will change. They are not cute. but I love them. That's exactly it. Middle school is a period where it's so hard. They are going through so much turmoil. And I think they need adults to listen to them and be there for them more than anything. And I can say without um any doubt in my heart that
00:19:16
Speaker
the pe the adults in middle school who surrounded my middle child especially and also my youngest during those really difficult ages were the ones that saved their lives because my kids had issues with depression and issues with bullying and you know if it hadn't been for those caring teachers and counselors in middle school, right? like I don't know what would have happened to my kids. So wait there is a really extra care that has to go in. And that's why I focus on middle school a lot because I think that they need us the most. I agree.
00:19:59
Speaker
I totally agree and I i coached um a number of teams and middle school teams have always been my favorite. Specifically the last two years um I coached middle school girls basketball and I've coached not at every level but I've coached university of basketball when I was doing my BED. um I did high school boys, high school girls and middle school girls the last two years has been the most fun alan that I've ever had coaching in my entire life. And i think I think we had a good group of kids, but I think just like the way they were able to connect with each other um and the way we built community was so fun. And all those things you just mentioned and were still happening. So they were going through relationship stuff. They were figuring out school. there Some of them were even transitioning from different countries and finding new friendships.
00:20:53
Speaker
um They are dealing with so much, so much. um But when they find the right people, you literally see such a shift in their mindset and how they carry themselves. And I saw that with some of the girls on the team, just having a community. in itself really really helped them not just get through the season but they come back to my classroom and they want to hang out or when we see each other in the hallway like that connection in itself has been so phenomenal so i i don't teach middle school i'm an element elementary school teacher but i do love middle school kids so much i really really do i think they're so awesome i want to talk to you a little bit more about um we need diverse books and i have a couple questions written down
00:21:38
Speaker
You've probably answered this a thousand times but I have you here. I do have you here. So the question was like how do you see the work of like we need diverse books and intersection um with the issues of BAM books and the challenges of like diverse literature specifically with middle grade or young adult and what is like not necessarily your role but like a writer's role in all of that.
We Need Diverse Books Movement Challenge
00:22:07
Speaker
So I think that the but you know the challenges in the book bands have come up as a direct response to the success of We Need Diverse Books because the reality is, you know, you look, everybody go and look at that 2012
00:22:22
Speaker
pictograph, right? What was so powerful about it was that it really, the visual of it, seeing that graph of how many books, um how few books there were for kids of color compared to, you know, white kids. And that was in 2012. In 2014, in 2012, they said 7% of books ah published in the children's book industry were about children of color and by people of color. And that number in 2014 was 8%. And now, right, after 10 years of work, that number went up 45%, right? So when you see that kind of an increase, you know that ah the movement was successful, right? and The movement was successful in bringing more diverse voices out because publishing as a whole responded so positively.
00:23:20
Speaker
for on every point from writers and creators to librarians and teachers and publishing itself they all uplifted marginalized voices and that's important right and so when you see that huge increase which you know, we can say is directly in relation to our programs that we ran. When you see that huge increase, what you also have to expect is the backlash, right? but None of us were surprised. This actually happened exactly the same way in the 80s, right? When Walter Dean Myers was being published, and he even wrote those op-eds about it. yeah ah You know, how there was this beautiful age of multicultural ah book renaissance in the
00:24:08
Speaker
70s right and maybe it was in the 80s that it started to get cut down because librarian funding libraries were funding was getting slashed and all that and so we expect that to happen oh but what's a little bit different now as it was ah different for us the and what made our success different was social media. And so social media has compounded this ability to be just this very loud, very scary, you know, echo chamber. It was good at the beginning. It's now kind of scary and dangerous. And um people talk about cancel culture, which is not a thing. i mean
00:24:49
Speaker
All you gotta do is look at J.K. Rowling and see, she's still selling a hell of a lot of books. Cancel culture only exists for like marginalized communities, actually. It's very true. That is very, very true. Right. And so when you look at what's happening, what we have to do is figure out a way to make people realize that when they're banning books, the underlying reason right is always about putting down the voices of marginalized communities. you know They can cover it in any way they want. Oh, this is porn. Oh, this is not and know appropriate. But that's that's what's happening. right And one of the most beautiful things that I saw was they said Gen X and Gen X.
00:25:39
Speaker
not, that's me. Gen Z, right? Gen Z is the most empathetic, most compassionate, most accepting of identities of all generations. Of any generation to ever come, Gen Z is the most compassionate and empathetic generation. And I think that's beautiful. But look at the ages of Gen Z. Look at when We Need Diverse Books became successful. The Gen Z kids were getting the benefit of diverse books. We have proof that they work. We have proof that it can change how people react. It is actually the way we fight prejudice and racism and homophobia and transphobia. Like these books are so important. right Authors in Korea are going to see kids in person so important.
00:26:34
Speaker
how it changes people, right? It makes it more empathetic. It works. It does work. And that's why we've got the backlash. who So now, when we see that, we have to fight even harder. We do. Yeah. And I think it's it's so empowering to, um you know, The waves, that the ebbs and flows of a nonprofit or an organization that is doing good work. And I mean, that I feel, and I'll speak for myself.
00:27:12
Speaker
and then seeing a way where people are like well we don't need this anymore or this isn't come bring value anymore like and then to keep going like because in your heart you know that this is what we need as a society um how did this come about like how did we need diverse books Like how was that created? um I'm very curious of I don't I don't know this story. So I'm very, very curious of this story. um I know there's lots of people involved. um But ah tell me how that how did it happen? So actually, we go back to 2014. No, 2013.
00:27:59
Speaker
And what was it? You know, geez, I don't even know what you're saying. Don't worry about the date. That's okay. Before the Viogni vista meeting, I was at a festival and I was with Lamar, Giles, and Meg Medina, two of my favorite people. And we had just done this panel. And for once, it wasn't a diversity panel, right? It was like... Amen. We're literally talking about the hero's journey and remember we're just going yeah you know we need to be put more on panels like this just where we're talking about writing as opposed you know because this was a writer's festival as opposed to talking about you know diversity you know how to write a character that kind of stuff so
00:28:44
Speaker
Oh, I was all like, you know, I'm so tired of like how we're pigeonholed all the time and we just need to do something about it. And Lamar famously said, Ellen, as long as it's not illegal, I'm in.
00:29:01
Speaker
And Meg, who you know has seen has been doing diversity work forever, was like, sure, but but what? And the but what question stumped me, right? who And I'm a thinker. i just i like I think and I think and I just have to sit on things. and figure out what it is I wanted to do. um But research is part of my process of figuring that out. For example, as a side note, now that I'm stepping down from WNDB in June, I've been thinking and thinking about what's next for me because of what's happening, right? Like I think WNDB is really good and is addressing all the programs that it does very well. And it can't grow really beyond that.
00:29:44
Speaker
um but we need to do something else. We need to do something else for the marketplace. And so right now, I'm in my thinking phase right now of what's next, what can we do to once again, kind of shift and change the industry, right? Back then, my thinking ah phase was, okay, how do we, you know, how do we address this? What do we do? And, you know, then you had the back to back op ed articles by Walter Jean Myers and then Chris Myers on you know, the apartheid of chosen literature. um And then book con came about and like, it was just kind of like, it really is. It's a moment of being in the right place, thinking the right thing at the right time, right? who and And at that time, Twitter was a very favorable place, social media.
00:30:35
Speaker
was a good place for marginalized voices to be heard, ring ah to kind of grow out of the echo chamber. And so I think that all those things, I was like, okay, we're going to do something about it. Like started with all of these conversations that we were I was having separately and then went on Twitter and had with Melinda Lowe. Uh, where people were like, I want, I want to come help. I want, I want it. Just tell me. And all of a sudden I had like a group of 20 people. Right. So what's next, Ellen? And I went, okay. So at that time, um, what was really kind of like trending were, uh, people's holding up signs with a hashtag, right. and Enjoying a picture. And I was just like, that to me was really important. Um, because I thought the visual was really.
00:31:28
Speaker
Like, you know, it's not just enough to show words. It's important to show the people who's being affected. And I said, let's do a hashtag campaign, but make it visual, you know, let's let people tell their stories of what it was like not to see themselves. in books and how that affected them you know and then like some of my favorite tweets or um you know promotional pictures were the ones that's like there's the one with the little three black boys that said we need diverse books so that you can know that we can be superheroes too right and that's before Black Panther and I was like yes
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah. This is exactly right. You know, because I remember being told when I was younger that I couldn't be some superhero because I'm not white, right? I have a story about my daughter dressing up as Cinderella and being told that she couldn't be Cinderella because she's not white. Like we've all heard those stories. So um that's really kind of where it started. And people just got together and it went fine. It did and it's so I mean again I am so appreciative of the work that the collective has done like I constantly hear we need diverse books as a resource constantly and I'm ah international and I mean it's so great to hear other teachers talking about it, um other librarians leaning on like you guys as like a resource because it it not only makes me feel safe but it also
00:33:06
Speaker
makes me believe in um the work that my librarian may be trying to do in regards to creating a collection of books for the library or for classrooms as well because I know it's coming from a source that is um really trying to help kids understand empathy, understand um humans as a whole. um I'm just so grateful and I appreciate that because I know it didn't start where it is now. I know it started muddy and trying to understand like what it is you actually want to do and all the things. So thank you for staying with it because it's been very, very helpful.
00:33:45
Speaker
i mean We had an amazing executive committee, a bunch of wonderful people who worked so hard. like like i I keep saying that during that period of time, I talked to Lamar, Aisha, Marika, Miranda, Eileen, and who else am I missing, Danielle. All these people, I talked to them more than my own. no You know, like, of course a trying to start a nonprofit, it's a lot of work. who It is. It is a lot of work and it does not go unnoticed. That's for sure. Ellen, what do you do? You work extremely hard. I know you do. And you can't tell me that you don't. I know you do. What do you do for fun? What are some of the things that bring you joy?
00:34:35
Speaker
so And you can't say reading or writing. and wasn't I wasn't. good I was actually gonna say food. I love I especially love when other people make the food because I don't like cooking so much. I'm a good cook. I don't really love cooking because it's a lot of work. um But I love eating. oh hi I love like finding restaurants. I love trying new things. You know, food makes me happy. Would you call yourself a foodie? No, I don't actually. Because I think I feel like people who consider themselves foodies are kind of very picky or very like, like gourmandi, right? And I don't, not a gourmand, like I will eat a gourmand and be so happy. I love hamburgers. Like I'm not really into like,
00:35:28
Speaker
very, very fancy seven-course meals. Much more of a, if there's a dirty alley hole with a mop-hop restaurant making authentic cuisine of whatever it is, it's gonna be really good, right? Yeah, no, so I don't know that, I wouldn't call myself a foodie, but I appreciate food, I love it. And also, I love k-dramas, I gotta admit it. I do not watch anything You know what's so funny I actually had that question I had a question in mind for you about just like television I don't know what it was but I had it in my I wasn't gonna ask it to you but it's so funny that you bring that up and I don't watch kdramas but I've heard a lot about them yeah what are some of the kdramas that you watch?
00:36:16
Speaker
ah Well, I just finished Queen of Tears and that is like legitimately now one of my favorite K-dramas. So that, ah oh, it's so good. Now I did like, I do watch some, I do watch K-dramas and J-dramas and I also started some Thai dramas. So i I watch a lot of Asian dramas and I'm gonna say something and somebody's gonna be really mad about this, but I don't like American productions as much anymore because feels like for example like i walked in my husband's watching that viking show right what's the viking the viking show he's totally into it like he's like literally like streaming it constantly every night every night i walk down and i walk in and it's some horrible rape scene or violence scene or like sex scene and i'm like every night i'm like you know we're watching the same episode
00:37:13
Speaker
No, music, I'm on season eight now, like 200 episodes in. I'm like, it doesn't change. I come in and I see this crap, right? now And so like, I don't know. I feel like, and and okay, here's the funny thing. months ago he was watching another show and it was totally like it was like an asian cast so it was i want to say badland something so it was actually like asian western right and i was like at least that one sounds great right i think western production of like asian wow that's great every night i walk down what do i walk in on
00:37:53
Speaker
And that's that's so true, though, because I think Western television leans on two things, sex and violence. i think You might be thinking about Game of Thrones. that's That's what I thought about Game of Thrones, when you're thinking about... That was a long time ago. And it applies. Same thing. Like, how is it that what I'm criticizing applies across the genres of C2? it does yeah no i i totally agree with you and i watch a little bit of tv um i'm into like cooking shows right now i love i love cooking shows um i love watching kids cook as well in like competitions and i do watch sports when i have time it's just i'm in a weird not a weird time zone but like in regards to watching like western sports
00:38:41
Speaker
It's just really hard so I can catch them on like the weekend sometimes but during the week it's just I'll catch the score at the end of the day because I'm usually teaching when the game's happening as
Personal Interests Beyond Writing
00:38:53
Speaker
well. a But I knew there was something, I knew there was something for you um in regards to like what you do for joy outside of reading and writing and I love that it's K-dramas. but I love that for you. I love that so much. Ellen, you have so many books and you continue to produce so many beautiful books to the world. And can you tell me about the most recent um book that you have? So the most recent book is YA. It's called The Colliding Worlds of Mina Lee and
00:39:26
Speaker
The reason I wrote that one is because as a Gen X-er, my favorite music video is Aha's Take On Me. Do you know that? I do. I love that music video. I'm actually a big Aha fan. like I have all their albums. like People did this very obscure European band, right? like I know all that. So I loved that music video. And I was always kind of fascinated with this idea about, you know, this girl reading a comic and being drawn into a comic, right? ah hu
00:40:02
Speaker
And ah I wanted to write a story like that. And that's where Colliding Worlds with Mina Lee comes from. Plus, Mike is a webcomic artist himself. So I was able to utilize personal first-hand experience to write this story about a webcomic artist who creates a... Oh, that is so cool. in the world, but then she finds that she's no longer in control of what's happening in that world. And at the same time, she has to fix it before everything goes right. That's so dope. That's so dope. What ah fun was that I did not realize until I was way into writing it that this was not a web comic novel ah alone, but it was actually a multiverse novel and that I had to teach myself
00:40:53
Speaker
quantum mechanics and string theory. Oh wow. That's a whole nother layer. That's a whole nother layer. ah Oh my god. I did not enjoy that part because I do not like physics.
00:41:13
Speaker
but But you are a learner. You're definitely a learner. That's for sure. i I find as I get older, I have the ability to forget what I've learned immediately. it ah ellenlin you are so i I would call you active, like I do see you online. um where Where can people find you online? Uh, I think now that Twitter's or XYZ is, is basically a hellhole. I am most on Instagram and I'm also on TikTok, but for TikTok.
00:41:56
Speaker
it's kind of It's weird. like I'm more of a... I just like watching TikToks more than like posting TikToks. But like if you want to like interact with me, I think I'm more on Instagram and threads. Only because they're easy. They're kind of easy. um I want to thank you for hanging out with me. This was lovely. This was lovely. It was just what I needed. It it was the perfect time. want to stop I can stop the recording here.