Transcript
Speaker: We made it. Yeah, we did it. Welcome back everyone to another episode. If you were on the other end of this call, you would have just watched us go through a charity. We've been trying to get online for a couple of days now. It's been scheduled, but I'm so grateful um for your time and your energy. And I'm super excited about my guest today. um Can you introduce yourself? Yeah, so my name is Cosby A. Cabrera and I live in Evanston, Illinois. ah By way of New York, I'd been in New York um all of my life up until about maybe going on seven years now and that we're in the Midwest. yeah um And I'm a multimedia artist and I love working in textiles and painting and drawing. and
Speaker: Um, so like anything that relates to, um, sort of, uh, evidences of creativity. I absolutely. Yeah. i'd be Thank you. And I am such a fan of your work and just what you represent as an artist and a creator. So I am. so gracious of your your kindness and your patience with me. And i'm excited I'm very excited to chat today. I know bits and pieces of your story just based on reading your books and and seeing you online. And I've never met you in person, but I've watched presentations of you um through you know all the channels. So I'm excited to to dive in a little bit. And I always ask this question because I think um for me, it's so important.
Speaker: ah What did Little Cosby look like ah growing up? Can you tell me a little bit about Little Cosby? Um, so, so she was an interesting child, um, because, um, I grew up in, um, let's just say on the playground, it was one thing. So, um, I was told I was double handed, you know, and so, um, you know, double dutch is a big thing in urban centers all over the United States. And if you're double handed, you are of no use to anybody.
Speaker: And so I was the one who I was brandished as double handed so they wouldn't let me turn on the double Dutch line, much less jump in. And, um, and it's really funny because I was the one, I was a child who, um, you know, odds even when you pick the members of your team, I was just somehow never always left over. ah Oh, no. so So they called that the rag doll on the playground. you know It's like nobody wanted you on the team. you know um So that was like outside. And then in school, it was something else. you know Because I had the same classmates from kindergarten through eighth grade mostly.
Speaker: um because I went to a little Catholic school and so there I was like loved and admired and respected and um and everybody thought that it was like really bright and that I had all the answers. know right? Well, you know, they were always asking predictable questions. ah minute like did have anthe yeah And then, um, yeah, and, and, uh, there was some, uh, sort of creative talent that was showing up really, really early that got noticed. Wow. Wow. two girls
Speaker: Definitely two worlds, definitely two worlds. And then how did your art and your love of multimedia and just like being creative come about? And I'm wondering, did that have a direct influence from a family member or a friend or even a teacher or someone in your educational life? So, you know, I think so much creativity comes um in the way for children when they don't have enough to do. Mm hmm. That's true. Yeah. And so like, ah like, so for me, I was just excited about being alive, you know, like, I, I would use the time so I didn't care if it took like three days to crochet a sweater, you know, it's like,
Speaker: you know i'll i'll I'll do it, it's like, yeah. And so that was a time also where everyone was watching the same thing at the same time. So like Wednesday night was something and then Thursday night we'd all be talking about the same thing, not like now where things are being streamed independently and there's so many options. you know So there was like, um I don't know, the feeling of a foment you know conversation and and that sort of thing. Um, so yeah, I just absolutely loved, uh, tinkering and just like bringing creativity. So like my mom, uh, turned my sister and I on to, uh, being responsible for cooking at like eight to work.
Speaker: ah So when it wasn't my turn to cook, my sister had to they do the dishes and grab the stove sweep and do the laundry. And and when it was my when it was her turn to cook, I had to do those things. And so when I cooked, I just experimented. And, you know, because I love people say, this is so amazing. course And so when my senior cut, so she would like boil the potatoes and boil the toast and boil the vegetables. And like, everyone's like, and she would say, well, it's cooked, you know. And so, yeah, just love the idea of um ah being at play, like, no matter what it was. I love that and it sounds like you said your mom was a huge influence on that and tell me can you tell me more about the importance of just like the parental role in leaning in on one's creativity like as a teacher I am often And, you know, kids kids are kids go up and down in regards to believing they're creative. Or they often say like, I'm not a drawer or a writer. um And I do think it's a parent and a teacher's job to instill in them, like, you are. Like, it it it's okay that it looks different than somebody somebody else's. But talk about the influence that yeah your mom had on you and your creativity.
Speaker: so like So in terms of creativity, I noticed when I go to a kindergarten class and I say, who likes to draw? like All the hands are up. Who likes to paint? All the hands are up. and And then I think something happens in like third grade where they've compartmentalized themselves as like I'm good at it, I'm okay at it, and I'm no good at it. Agreed. And I think that's um sort of the danger, like all of that kind of um dividing into the, you know, the categories and the boxes because everybody starts off with enthusiasm because like, they do
Speaker: put their fingers in the paint you know and swirl it around. like It's just just um just tremendous fun. you know So yeah, so um my mother, I don't know if it was my mother or it was my pre -K teacher that pointed out to my mother. you know It was like she took her like um along the gallery you know of all of the little pre -K portraits. you know And then she says, you know, but this one, notice that it has eyes, you know, and a nose and a mouth and ears, you know, just paying attention to detail. And so so then at that point, like my mom back then, women had like stockings, you know, where there was a cardboard insert to hold it all and in, you know, place. And so she would give me that piece of cardboard. And I thought, oh, my God, because there were four of us, you know,
Speaker: um but That's like a big deal. ah you know but I got it. I love that. i just Yeah, they're drawing, they encouraged me. And so it's not about fancy materials. you know like I see some ah parents going into Blick and all these other places and getting the fancy pens and that this and that and spending so much money. I think like the least you give kids within reason that they can almost like ply um their materials as opposed to just you know stuffing them with materials. So that could look like scraps of things, um unusual surfaces like corrugated cardboard. It looked like so many
Speaker: um so many things. And I think that you don't have to necessarily ah spoil a child with the latest and the greatest when it comes to materials. You know, they get them to ah to learn how to um even i identify materials um out of what is what we might call the every day. I agree. And that's where creativity happens yeah in the but place of not necessarily struggle, but I think it's just like, you know, that design process of like really trying to figure out what can I do with what I have. Right. And slowly giving them materials that are a little bit different or textiles are a little bit different or even colors that are a little bit different. It's fascinating what kids can do when you give them so little.
Speaker: Right. I see it all the time in the classroom. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's true. And then then you get into the thing where they start mixing, you know, as opposed to like just ah delivering things straight out of the, you know, the the tube or whatever, start mixing and coming up with some amazing palettes and colors and um and the colors that we consider what I call fiercely indeterminable. Yeah. Can't name. like is that a pink or is that yeah what is that yeah i think they i think they don't do enough that and i try to do that a lot in my when i'm doing writing lessons as well just like giving them the freedom to explore with words and create their own words and it's okay like if we can understand it and we have a sense of what you're trying to say like it's okay that we are exploring the idea of our own spelling um spelling isn't something that we have to necessarily have
Speaker: Write for everybody if you have a certain way that you talk and that's how you want to put it into your writing I think that is is so okay and I don't know if we do ah enough of that in education of allowing kids to be free because like We know education as they get older that sense of freedom specifically in their writing um I believe it's it's taken away from them um because academic writing, we talked I talked about this yesterday with someone, academic writing is very interesting. And if you're only getting fed a specific type of academic writing, that's what you're going to think is good writing. And that is not the case at all. um So shout out to mom.
Speaker: Cause that's awesome. good Yeah. And then like summer seemed so long back then. So back then there was like a ah family typewriter, you know, in the linen closet and I would go in after finishing, you know, ah polishing off everything and, and like, you know, I crank in a piece of paper and then I would start to write my novel. It's supposed to be the great American novel. And i um every day I would like literally type out the same title because I was sure about the title. But then I actually felt like like I had gotten stuck because I felt like
Speaker: A lot of what I was reading did not necessarily match my experiences. And so then I was thinking that my experiences weren't necessarily worthy of sort of inserting or weaving into a story. Totally. And i it's it's so interesting. I wanted to use the word sad, and I think it is a little sad, but like so many authors of color that I've talked to have had similar experiences. um
Speaker: And they've been from all walks of life, all different types of places, communities, countries, et cetera. But they have not, growing up, they had a really hard time finding books, finding literature that resembled who they were. And I think that kind of goes into, like my next question for you is, what does like creating Black art mean to you personally, and how does it how do you feel like it contributes to um you know the ah broader ah conversation around representation and and identity?
Speaker: Yeah, so I think representation is key um because it's a grounding factor, you know, i that a child can get a sense of sort of the outer, um because the outer does influence our interior life, you know, And so when you've been erased completely, then um something's missing. Like no matter what it is that you're taking in, um there's something actually, the container, which is you, um is not receiving it with the same sort of rootedness and deepness that um that you could receive that if you feel like you're okay within yourself.
Speaker: So like, I talked to you about those two worlds. So like, ah on the playground, um every day, you know, it's like the word ugly kept coming up, because that's how they, they called me ugly. But it's like, no one was contesting that. And I heard it repeatedly. So I just believed it, you know, so that the very first time that somebody actually said it was beautiful, I i must have been 18 years old. Wow. and and I remember looking at them sideways because I knew they were up to something, you know um because it's just like the absence of this um idea of beauty.
Speaker: um you know and and so so That's why I think representation is key because it's almost like We know deep within ourselves who we are ah and it's really difficult when it's not reflected or mirrored in some way, you know, because we all come from something very, very, I call it divine, you know, so there's recognition that something's amazing, you know, within us. It's like we know
Speaker: that. But it's really hard when all the messages that you're getting um either defy that or or um speak to the to it to the contrary. you know And then you're spending all that time trying to reconcile, like what you know, versus what's showing up, you know? Yes. And that is, I mean, it's so Like I'm thinking, I think a lot about the kids that I have in my classroom because you're talking about yourself at a very young age and just the power of words in itself yeah are yeah so important. um Kids can be mean. They can be very mean. And I think sometimes I always say like sometimes they're meanness.
Speaker: can come from lots of different places. I like to believe in my heart that therere they're very curious kids and it comes from curiosity, but they know when they're being mean. but yeah I have no doubt in my mind that when they say specific things that like cut someone yeah and those cuts last for so long, I think that they you know um need to practice some of the words that they're using because we talk about the power of words in the classroom all the time and just how deeply those words stay with you you mentioned like those words you didn't hear the words like you're beautiful until you're 18 like that is a long time a really long time right it is a long time yeah so so there's a part of you that gives up on that because okay all right that's not me but I am all these other things you know let's kind of like develop and you know and flourish in the video
Speaker: Yeah, because having I was smart, you know, it's like, you know, and all these other things. So yeah, just really funny, like, um what shows up sort of in the environment, you know, and then what gets taken in, you know, yeah, it's just really, yeah. It's a lot. yeah it's really And as a kid, you're you're also just dealing with so much as well. So as a elementary kid, a middle school kid, high school kid, there's so many moments of you just wanting to fit in and be accepted. Right. You just want to be accepted in some sort of way for who you are. And people are looking at you and because you're a little bit different than somebody else.
Speaker: It obviously causes them to to to act in a certain way. um Kazmi, is there certain individuals that um have inspired or influenced your like artistic practice um in regards to how you use different types of mediums um and how you put them together on on a page? I know you spoke specifically about your mom, but are there other people that are already... I mean, either ah um obviously the influence is there, but I'm wondering who those people are um when it comes to your art. You know, it's really funny. Yeah, so so when it comes to my art, I don't necessarily think of, a believe it or not, at like ah you know a person. like um I started working in textiles, and then people you know ask me, have you ever heard of so -and -so when I had? yeah ah I remember um when I was sharing my dolls and quilts, you know ah people would come up to me, this reminds me so much of Faith Ringgold.
Speaker: But i I wasn't familiar with her work at the time. you know um So I can't say um that there's a like people that I can point to. There are people that I feel resonate in some way. like I absolutely um love the paintings of Diego Rivera. um He showed his people um sort of attached to the land, you know, and he didn't try to slenderize them, you know, they were solid and sturdy and, you know, like a butero as well. um ah so So I respected that, you know, that.
Speaker: you can look out into the world um with your own lens and and project. you know um so yeah so So I wouldn't say necessarily influence, but I think you know we are in conversations, even when we're it's unwitting. And then I think that um seeing the work of people with a particular point of view ah almost frees something up in us to give us a sense of permission too you know to express.
Speaker: Yeah, and and yeah in lots in in lots of different ways as well. yeah So what is your like creative process? Like when you are trying to, if you're given a manuscript or you have a manuscript of your own, yeah where do you begin? And I'm thinking yeah like for someone like you who is like a master at mixed media, you are, I said it, but but you are. you know It's so funny because master's a funny kind of ah thing because there's so many, it's a spectrum. like There's so many layers yeah course and there's always some more fruit to reach for. You have a whole basket of fruit and and then there's a recognition that you just grabbed the low -lying one. You got to get up on the ladder and so like reach a little more. you know And so I think that process is never over, um and like no matter where we find ourselves. And I always say to beginning artists, it's like, you're on the same path. you know um So don't even think about it you know that um something is ah
Speaker: efficient or youre not yet realize you're on the same path. Somebody may have walked a few steps ahead, you know but they're on that same path and you're on the same path. I love that. I For Manuscript, I always first check for the language if I love the language. Um, so I may not love the language necessarily. I may love the subject matter and it, uh, gives me, um, uh, sort of a reason to do a deeper dive into that subject matter. And so I'll, I'll take that manuscript, but I am, um, anything that's got a little Brown protagonist, hello you know, i I, I do, you know, um, look mostly to, you know, and, and, you know, I tend
Speaker: day yeah you know of course i get it i totally get it but but yeah so um so so when i'm taking something on i don't do a close read of it because uh something happens when you're reading closely where ah right away images start uh coming to you And you want to be in a position where you are capturing those things that are coming to you. And so if you did your you know your close read and you didn't capture it, then you don't get that first set of stuff that bubbles up.
Speaker: you know we kind You've missed it. yeah So um so i yeah, I tend to do my deeper reading when I know that I'm in a position to make some notes and do some thumbnails and actually capture what's showing up. ah love that yeah I love Yeah. And then for the thumbnails, I'm like very, I try to be very, um how might I say it, loose about it. You know, sometimes something is so specific and I've got to sort of like, ah you know, capture that and drop that down. But usually they're fairly loose.
Speaker: who Because during a sketching sort of designing phase of the book, I never ever ever want to be so attached to what my precious little hands have done that I'm not willing to scrap it, to move it, to change it, to, as we say, slay darling. I think it's really important to be willing to do that. I love that. i remember so Yeah, Terri Jones, you know, she'd come to my shop when I had a shop ah with her manuscript, you know, and she would like literally highlight entire paragraphs and then just like delete. I was like, whoa, wait.
Speaker: Because it's like, as we're creating, we're always looking for the best ways um you know to tell the story, to tell the story visually. And so we don't want to get so fixated you know um because we've invested a little bit of ourselves to say, you know this is it. Yeah, I think we're we're constantly revising yeah all the time. And I think that's in our art, it's in our writing, it's in our lives. And I always, I don't know the exact quote, but yeah an author Yexar Lyman always talks about the art of revision.
Speaker: And I think that it's so true, like we are, yes, we use the word often for writing or the work that we do, but we are revising ourselves constantly. um And we don't have to delete. We don't have to delete. Yeah, yeah. We can. You're not the original, or right? Yeah, exactly. Just make another copy. You can cross it out. You can do whatever you need, but you don't need to delete. okay Cozy, what are um some things you're currently working on and where can people find you online? Yeah, um so online um you can catch me on Instagram and it's just Cozby, C -O -Z, like zebra, be like boy, I, like ice cream. um And ah on Facebook, if anyone's still on Facebook, it's Cozby books.
Speaker: And I'm hardly ever on X since it became X. Yeah, um yeah and it's the same website, kosby .com. awesome Yeah, and so right now I am toggling between revisions, we talk about revisions, on a handful of books. so um So I've turned in some sketches for a Coretta book that's coming up, um and a first library book that's written by Brittany Thurman, Jay Thurman, and some sketches on the Laylally book, which will be coming up.
Speaker: I mean, I'm super I'm always excited for whatever you do. So um I'll wait patiently because I know it takes time. but but And then um so I have a book that's coming out at the end of this year called um it's written by Leslie on array. It's her debut picture book called bro Girl, Brown Girl. Yeah, that should be coming out in December. Wow. And that schedule, that is busy. That is very busy. but and and not You know what goes into a book, right? So long. So I can only imagine. Yeah, I can only imagine the the hours of, you know, yeah
Speaker: figuring out colors and lines and textures and all this stuff so you are appreciated thank you so much this was lovely this is a great way it's my morning so it's a great way to start my morning
