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S3.E16: The Dark Crystal (1982) – Childhood Fantasy Series Part 2 | Jim Henson's Nightmare Puppets
27 Plays10 days ago
This week we journey back to 1982 for Jim Henson’s dark and dazzling masterpiece: The Dark Crystal. 🧙♂️🪄 With its groundbreaking puppetry, haunting world-building, and eerie undertones, this fantasy film shaped childhoods and nightmares alike. Joining us is Evan from The Kilt and the Redneck Podcast 🎙️ to dive deep into Skeksis politics, Gelfling lore, and whether this film is truly for kids… or kids who like a little trauma with their popcorn. 🍿👀 👑 Expect nostalgia, laughs, and more than a little darkness as we explore what made The Dark Crystal a cornerstone of 80s fantasy cinema. 📚 Want more horror? Check out our books on Amazon: 👉 https://a.co/d/bUtniBd 🎧 Check out our friends at Zencastr and get 30% off your first 3 months of Zencastr Pro: 👉 https://zen.ai/theaveragereviews 📖 Enjoy $5.00 off your first purchase when you use Tim Umpleby’s code “TIMOTHYREADS” at checkout: 👉 https://pangobooks.com/TIMOTHYREADS #TheDarkCrystal #JimHenson #FantasyMovies #ChildhoodFantasySeries #80sFantasy #MoviePodcast #TheAverages
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview
00:00:33
Speaker
All right. Welcome back everybody to another episode of The Average Reviews. I'm Jonathan and tonight we're diving headfirst into the second installment of our childhood fantasy series.
00:00:47
Speaker
And oh boy, this one's a little different. We're talking about The Dark Crystal, Jim Henson's 1982 cult classic that scarred some kids for life and enchanted others forever.
Divergence from Typical Puppet Films
00:01:00
Speaker
yeah this is not your muppets take manhattan the dark crystal was jim henson and frank oz saying what if we traumatized an entire generation with puppets mission accomplished it's wild it's dark it's beautiful and it's well well we'll get into what we think about it later And we've got company tonight. Joining us is Evan from the Kilt in the Redneck podcast. He's bringing his own brand of fun into this fantasy beaver dream. So buckle up.
00:01:32
Speaker
Oh, thank you for having me, fellas.
00:01:37
Speaker
Hey, I get a little clap. I was hoping that I'd get a little clap, but not as much of a clap after that beginning song. It always just pumps me up and gets me ready to go in for the ah for the average.
00:01:48
Speaker
is jamming. It's a fun little dance. I was doing a little jig and a little dance. i was like, yeah, this is great. Yeah.
Trivia and Uniqueness of The Dark Crystal
00:01:57
Speaker
Some quick film facts before we start tearing into this ah gem, if you will.
00:02:06
Speaker
It took five years to make this movie. and That's right. Five years of designing every puppet, every set piece and every strange skexy scream. Not a single human appears on screen. I'm not sure about this fact.
00:02:21
Speaker
We'll get into that. I think this is a lie. It's all puppetry, animatronics, and artistry. Critics were confused at the time of this movie's release.
00:02:34
Speaker
It was not a box office smash, but over the years it has become a cult classic that even inspired a Netflix prequel years later, decades later.
Book Plug and Personal Reflections
00:02:46
Speaker
absolutely and that's what makes tonight fun because we're not just re-watching childhood favorites we're looking at how they hold up how they hit different now that we're older and why the dark crystal is either a fantasy masterpiece or well a very elaborate nightmare and hey while we've got you here don't forget to check out my book like comment and survive it's a found oh you jonathan got his copy up mine's up there and it came in the mail today while i was at work Oh, perfect.
00:03:16
Speaker
I think it's better than my first one, much better. But it's a found footage novel. i was just about to grab mine. and There's the first. It's a found footage novel inspired not just by movies, but by decades of paranormal investigators from Ghost Hunters on Sci-Fi Channel to modern day YouTube paranormal investigators. It's perfect if you want something to keep you up at night after watching Skeksis the Movie.
00:03:44
Speaker
So grab your crystal shards, channel your inner Gelfling, and let's talk about the dark crystal live right now. All right, here we go.
00:03:55
Speaker
Let's get
Plot and Character Analysis
00:03:56
Speaker
into this. The story, gentlemen. um This was a first time watch for me again. Time bandits was the first time watching. This is a first time watch.
00:04:06
Speaker
ah I'm going to let you guys go first because yeah, yeah
00:04:16
Speaker
Evan, why don't go ahead and start us off, buddy. All right. ah So when I saw this so long ago, I guess when I was a kid, I think probably about four or five, I just thought this was one of the coolest movies.
00:04:30
Speaker
I didn't know anything about story. I didn't know anything about plot. I was just like, this is awesome. I love The Labyrinth. Jim Henson, of course, with that one. But I was like watching it this time and I was like, hmm, it's kind of hit or miss.
00:04:47
Speaker
You know, it's just kind of at its moments that it drug on. There weren't. Areas that I was like super enthralled in, like I wasn't just like super, super into the story, but the story, how it has to work together if you look away.
00:05:07
Speaker
You're not going to understand what's going on in between the geflings, between the skis at the mystics. You're not going to catch it if you don't know what happens.
00:05:20
Speaker
What's his what's his name? Zigzag. What? What? so but little The little dog-like puppet? Fizz gig? Yeah, the dog character. Fizz gig. Fizz gig.
00:05:31
Speaker
Yeah. Fizz gig. Yeah. Zig-zug. Good old Zig-zug, you know. Good old Zig-zug. Check out the Zig-zugs on... Never mind. Go ahead.
00:05:43
Speaker
I don't have any clue what that is. I guess it's a dog, but when it starts screaming at times, it's like, what the hell is that? I'm terrified. Yeah. Like my wife had never seen it before. So when she's watching it right next to me, she's like, what the fuck?
00:06:00
Speaker
Excuse my language. But she was just like, what the heck was that? um Yeah. Yeah, it was weird. um I liked it, though.
00:06:13
Speaker
You know, growing up with it, I'd still consider the story plot. Am I allowed to give the score on it right now? Or do I wait till you guys are done? We'll drop it at the end after we talk about it. All right.
00:06:24
Speaker
um Yeah. So basically, yeah, it's it's a weird story. There's a lot going on there. Visually stunning, but a very interesting story overall. You've got this planet, it was this distant world away where land is in harmony and everything is kind of run by this one group and they've got this magic crystal.
00:06:44
Speaker
It becomes fractured and the fracture causes a split in these entities that look after the crystal resulting in the the mystics and the Skeksis.
00:06:55
Speaker
So you've got the light and dark side split of these beings where you got one that goes off the mountains, these nice gentle creatures, and then you've got these evil bird-like nasty Skeksis bastards who just are greedy and take over the crystal and the land falls to pieces.
00:07:12
Speaker
Thousand years of turmoil, And Skeksis are so afraid of this that they go out and they annihilate. They commit genocide of the Gelfling race. and thekees are so afraid of this that they go out and they annihilate they commit genocide of the gulfing race But unbeknownst to them, there's a survivor by the name of Jen, this little male Gelfling who is raised by the mystics.
00:07:40
Speaker
um He learns to read, to write numbers, and he's got this whole grip on knowledge, which is fantastic, but sad because he's the only remaining member of his race, or so he thinks.
00:07:53
Speaker
Once his master dies, And the Skeksis Emperor passes on. It only leaves like nine of each counterparts left. And it comes close to the time of the prophecy.
00:08:05
Speaker
And so Jen goes on this quest to find the shard, reunite the crystal, get it back. And he meets a female Gelfling along the way who is raised by these pod people. So finds he's not alone, that there's a counterpart that they each have each other to confide in.
00:08:21
Speaker
And they work together to put the shards back together to bring harmony to the land. And it's quite an epic story and there's so much that happens. And I can see why kids would be terrified by some of the stuff they see in here with the way these puppets are built up.
00:08:38
Speaker
But ultimately they succeed and they reunite the halves of the mystics and thekees to the to make them the Ur-Skeks, these divine beings. And man, it's a pretty amazing tale.
00:08:51
Speaker
Those divine beings are kind of terrifying when they show up. They look kind of creepy, I'll admit. Yeah, it's from creepy ghosts, which.
Critique and Personal Connection
00:08:59
Speaker
OK, but yeah, Jonathan, I liked your your description of it. yeah i like I like Jonathan's description a lot better than mine. mine try to give a good break. I'm sorry, Jonathan.
00:09:11
Speaker
I think what you said is totally fair. Like the way you described it sounds so good. ah And I think that's what I wanted when i watched it.
00:09:22
Speaker
But unfortunately, I watched it and I'm like, this is the typical it was a unique fantasy world. But the twist on the story is kind of the same. It's still the it's still the I don't want to say reluctant hero in this case, but it's still the like the chosen one on the journey this time instead of the ring. It is the crystal.
00:09:47
Speaker
You know, you got to unite the crystal and that you do this and it's going to heal the land. And so the world itself, yeah, that was super cool. And I'll get into all of that stuff later.
00:10:00
Speaker
This story for me just felt somewhat like I've seen it before.
00:10:09
Speaker
Even though I haven't seen this movie, there's a lot of unique twists to things. I thought like the Skeksis and the, what were the other ones? The Mystics. Mystics. Skeksis are all I remember.
00:10:21
Speaker
The Mystics. Combining at the end, turning into one being, like, that was cool. That's a unique thing. Unique twist on it, but... i I watched this and i ah didn't love I didn't think the story was that crazy original for me, unfortunately.
00:10:41
Speaker
I feel like I'm being hard on this movie because I know people love this movie. I know people love this movie, but as a longtime reader of fantasy, i feel like I've read stories like this before. Mm-hmm.
00:10:54
Speaker
So that that's where I'm at on this. I'm actually I gave the story a two as in it's OK. It's OK. It's an OK story. And and um I'm kind of harsh.
00:11:06
Speaker
How about you, Evan? I gave it a four. I liked it. Good. I kind of ive made lot of bo here I made poo poo on telling the story. I'm so glad Jonathan just came in and saved hey ah But yeah, I gave it a four. I enjoyed the movie, you know, all together in certain aspects, certain ways. We'll go as we continue this. But yeah, I gave it a four.
00:11:33
Speaker
I liked it. Well, there's a there's a classic theme here of balance and counterparts of light and dark. nature, knowledge, you know, and putting everything back together. Because I mean, well, I said with Jen, he's he's got the grip on knowledge and numbers, and math and in reading and writing where his female kind of our Kira, she has a grip on on the nature aspect of life and communication with creatures in the land, which is fantastic and how they work together.
00:12:03
Speaker
how they combine their efforts and their strengths in order to take the light and dark side of the Ursk-Ex once they're reunited at end and putting them all together to being balanced, shard, crystal, the castle, everything, the land, just being one again.
00:12:19
Speaker
You know? So, I mean, I know common I know didn't fall asleep in this movie. I know I didn't fall asleep, but I missed all of that. Oh, okay. All right. I had forgot the end up until this last watch.
00:12:33
Speaker
I'm not I'm not criticizing it. I'm like, you have definitely seen this movie more than me. I feel like I need to give it another shot because I missed so much of that on my first viewing.
00:12:45
Speaker
and Okay, that it's definitely worth a watch again. Absolutely. So i'm disappointed in myself. Oh, you'd be alright. But I agree with that. And though I'm also a for on the story as well. All right.
00:12:57
Speaker
I want you to to disagree with me. That's good. All right. So on to the characters in this one. Oh, I have my notes. Why didn't I open my notes?
00:13:10
Speaker
um Characters.
00:13:15
Speaker
We have Jen, Kira, Chamberlain,
00:13:21
Speaker
Agra. Agra. Yeah. I like Agra. Those are our mains. ah Kira's little pet Fizz gig was the standout in the movie for me.
00:13:32
Speaker
love Fizz gig.
00:13:36
Speaker
Were you torn apart when they ah threw Fizz gig down the down the fire? I was. I was pretty upset about it. Yeah, I was pretty upset about it. Yeah, I forgot to. I was like, oh, no, not this gig.
00:13:50
Speaker
Yeah, I was pretty upset about Fizz Gig, but that's okay. I mean, as that's just another one of those moments that like, this is a kid's movie. And you you threw fica down threw Fizz Gig down the well.
00:14:05
Speaker
But it's okay. Agra saves him with a little stick prod and gets him off the thing he's hanging off of. So it's okay. So I mean, it's just scary. It's fearful. But you know He turns out okay in the end. That's all right.
00:14:16
Speaker
It's true. yeahp That's true. It was the... Well, we'll get into effects later. i was I was ready to jump right into it because that's what this movie is. um Yeah, so you mentioned Jonathan Jen's orphaned, book-taught, cautious.
00:14:35
Speaker
ah Kira is a little braver and you mentioned is more attuned to nature. But...
00:14:45
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's what that's what I have in my notes for characters.
00:14:51
Speaker
That's all right. What you got him?
Cultural Impact and Legacy
00:14:54
Speaker
So, I mean, if you start off with the way that Jen, he tries to go about his time is when he starts off, he seems like a scaredy cat, you know, not super scaredy cat, but he has to go out into the world that he doesn't even know, and he has to do it alone.
00:15:12
Speaker
As he progresses through the story, of course, he learns a little bit more about the places he goes. He meets, a I'm sorry, I forgot her name. i just said her name.
00:15:23
Speaker
No, the old witch. agra Agra. Agra. When he meets her, it starts to take a different turn for him that he's learning more and more.
00:15:36
Speaker
And then he meets Kira where he falls. I'd say he falls in love with her instantaneously. I don't know. It's a kids movie. You can't be having these type of activities in kids movies.
00:15:48
Speaker
I think they learn. Especially with puppets. Huh? Especially with puppets. Yeah. I mean, and then of course you've got your skeeces and they just some of the nastier people, especially Chamberlain.
00:16:04
Speaker
I hate. Chamberlain.
00:16:09
Speaker
Very annoying.
00:16:13
Speaker
He just annoyed the piss out of me. um But Jen's character development as the story progressed. Until he got to the end and he's the one that stuck that crystal in the end, he was fighting all the way up until the end.
00:16:32
Speaker
Not knowing what the hell he's supposed to do. at all. he's He was given nothing and he somehow figured it out with the help of his friends along the way. Okay.
00:16:44
Speaker
So yeah, with the character set here, go ahead. Yeah. Jen doesn't know what's going on. he He's just advised by his master. before he passes away that he needs to go and find agra he needs to go on this quest so he goes out stumbling trying to figure out what to do once he meets agra though and says he just needs a creed he needs a shard You know, she's like oh, well, here, check these out.
00:17:12
Speaker
Figure it out. I don't know what to do. I don't know which one it is. And he uses his own sense of intuition based on what he was taught by by the mystics and used music to to discover which one it is. So it's it's a journey of learning and discovery for him, aside from just finding his place in the world as what he thinks is himself as the last gelfling.
00:17:34
Speaker
Um, and then once he meets Kira, you know, and then meets these pod people and that stuff, his he starts to broaden his view. There's a little more about other people. And then <unk> it's crazy though, because going back a little bit, back to Agra, um, can't really say that they're friends, but they seem to have somewhat of a mild relationship though.
00:17:55
Speaker
But once like the, the big giant beetle looking things, i don't remember what they're called, but, um, it's it It's crazy how I just think it's hilarious how Jen just yeeted himself out of a window yeah to get away.
00:18:07
Speaker
That was hilarious. That was a cool scene. That whole scene was pretty cool. That was. It was pretty awesome. But you know once the these creatures keep chasing him, he meets Kira and they come after them and they escape into these ruins that they're the apparently Kira says that everyone's afraid to go into.
00:18:23
Speaker
That's when they find the mural. That's when they see the prophecy. And she's like, what is all this? And he's like, oh, this is writing. These are words. And he translates everything for her and discovers the prophecy, what's supposed to happen, finds his direction and what they need to do.
00:18:38
Speaker
you know And then once the Chamberlain, who is stripped of his position you know after their trial of stone with the Skeksis and him getting kicked out, You know, there's just a lot of stuff going on here.
00:18:51
Speaker
And the Chamberlain has his own plan to deceive them as their, acts like their friend in order to get them to the Dark Castle to get the Shard there so that he can get himself back into the good graces of the rest of his group.
00:19:07
Speaker
You know, and there's just a... There's a lot more that goes into it in like little small details, you know, because the Skeksis, they're doing so much to try and keep themselves alive and to keep going. And they're draining the essence from all these different creatures.
00:19:21
Speaker
um And draining the essence is another creepy thing for children. Just, yeah, I want to drain your essence, sucking the life. boy That's that's another creepy thing for a kid's movie.
00:19:33
Speaker
Right. And it's like in that moment where they they they capture Kira and they try to drain her her essence. But then Agra is like, hey, you've got some ability here. Fight, you know, fight to stay alive and uses her abilities to that connection and nature and to communicate with animals to get them all to escape, to attack the Skeksis, to help free her.
00:19:56
Speaker
you know, so she learns more about herself and what she can do with her own abilities, with her connection to nature, just like Jen has with his ability with knowledge and his sense of perception. Now, and bringing those two together in order to to beat the Skeksis and get the shard back into the crystal.
00:20:14
Speaker
um And how they overcome all that and come out on top in the end once they reunite both halves of the Mystics and the Skeksis into the Ur-Skeks and how they use their power to bring back Kira after she's killed by the Skeksis.
00:20:29
Speaker
ah showed Because she was already faint from being drained, used last for energy to throw that crystal and they win the day. They get their just reward at the end. She's brought back. They get to be together as one.
00:20:41
Speaker
They get to oversee the crystal. The land is back in harmony. And then the spirits of the Ur-Skeks, boom, off, gone into the ether. And they get to see how you know how to to bring the land and rule it and do whatever they got to do for future generations.
00:20:56
Speaker
And that's a pretty amazing arc. Not really much for Agra in that sense because she's just a side note. Although she is kind of feisty and fun to watch. Oh, yeah. But that's pretty much it. An arc, you know, and the Skeksis, you know, they they get their they're just desserts at the end by being defeated and being like, aha, we got you now suckers and the mystics.
00:21:16
Speaker
We're going to absorb you back in You're not getting the away. You know, it's awesome. See that kind of give me a big give me a big Skeksis hug. ah thank aye Those giant beetle beetle like things are Gartham.
00:21:33
Speaker
Ah, OK.
00:21:36
Speaker
They're the Gartham. Yeah, I I have nothing to add to what Jonathan said. You you you covered it. You did better than I could. um I ah missed some of that.
00:21:50
Speaker
Like I said, I think this is a movie that I need to see again. i don't know how soon, um but there's a lot ah to unpack here. This honestly, and I'll get to it later.
00:22:02
Speaker
I feel like I would enjoy the novelization of this movie more than I enjoyed the movie itself. If that makes sense. I think I would, I would like to read it, but i there was so much that disconnected for me and I'll, I'll get to that, but I was a three for the character arcs.
00:22:24
Speaker
I thought they were good. I think that hardest part for me, the character arc is I felt like I was missing a a prologue and an epilogue of I needed to know a little bit more about Jen.
00:22:39
Speaker
I needed to know a little bit more about Kira and I wanted to see little bit more at the end on the other side too. What was their life like? Like to use Star Wars as an example, we see Luke going about his day to day life and then find out that like, oh, you're the chosen one mentor or Luke wasn't the chosen one, but you're coming on this voyage.
00:23:06
Speaker
I didn't really feel like I got to see Jen's day to day life before get to know who Jen was other than like he was sitting by the water playing music and then he's at the mystics bedside as it's dying.
00:23:22
Speaker
And I just wanted more of that to get me hooked in. And because of that, I wasn't super attached to any of them moving into the film.
00:23:33
Speaker
But then at the end, I also want to see how their life has changed after the events of the film. So i'm not arguing you. You covered what was in there. I'm just saying what I needed to connect with it more is a little bit more on the front and the back to help me connect with Jen, connect with Kira a little more.
00:23:55
Speaker
that I know this is a little bit more. This is a little bit more of one of those. I mean, was about say Lion, Witch the Wardrobe, but even Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, we get to know the Pevensies before they enter the war wardrobe.
00:24:08
Speaker
And so I'm trying to think but almost might be like wheel at the time where the stranger shows up and they all leave together and then we get to know them.
00:24:20
Speaker
So yeah, I, and that was another one that I had a hard time with. this I do. I'm someone who I do appreciate a little bit of a slow beginning because it tells me why I should care about the characters.
00:24:35
Speaker
So I'm a three. It's I think I think it's a good arc, but I wasn't super attached to any of them. Even when Kira died or was stabbed, I was like. This is a kids movie. that was That was it. I wasn't emotionally attached to Kira.
00:24:56
Speaker
Evan, hi yeah I came in strong right behind you with a three. Is that it's I just like you said, I just need a little bit more of that backstory to know who they were beforehand.
00:25:10
Speaker
I mean, other than the fact we understood who Kira was, is that Kira with the pod people, they're a bunch of alcoholics. They like to party. They like to get drunk. They like to party.
00:25:22
Speaker
That was a cool scene. and Yeah, that was.
00:25:28
Speaker
I guess if you got to worry as a pod person to be abducted into getting your soul taken out, what what else could you do all day than party? Just party because you know your soul sucking moment is coming soon.
00:25:43
Speaker
yeah youre you get you're going to die either way. So YOLO, let me party. Yeah. yeah
00:25:50
Speaker
Well, I see where you guys are coming from. but i mean, in all fairness, At the start of the movie, you give get the narration that kind of gives the explanation of what's happening, what's going to go down a little bit, give you some pretext there.
00:26:01
Speaker
And then even though you don't see much into Jen's life at the start, I will say it's kind of weird that they show him playing his flute naked at the pool. Like, I don't know why they couldn't have had her clothes. I don't know. and just That was weird to me.
00:26:15
Speaker
Yeah. why do we Why do we need a naked puppet playing? don't know. But whatever's whatever. I didn't expect puppet nudity, but... I just thought it was weird. but When Jen and Kira meet, though, and they touch hands, they do that dream fast thing.
00:26:32
Speaker
and so You do get that glimpse into their lives and their past. and What happened to them when The Skeksis tried to commit genocide. And so you see the the the other halves of each to see how they were raised and despite the trauma.
00:26:47
Speaker
And they get to learn about each other. So you do get that sense of backstory a little bit more there. um Although I do agree it would have been nice to get some of that context at the beginning with him.
00:26:59
Speaker
but you But you do get some insight to that. um Overall, though, for me, this is a good film for me. i give it a five on character arc. Good. Good.
00:27:11
Speaker
ah All right.
Music and Sound Design
00:27:13
Speaker
On to music and sound design. i have in my notes composer Trevor Jones ah scored, recorded with the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Marcus Dodds at Abbey Road Studios.
00:27:30
Speaker
Ooh.
00:27:32
Speaker
That's cool. There's a... There's some nice elements to the music here. from quote unquote ancient sounds at the just kind of I guess, classic fantasy music that I would associate with a fantasy ah percussive percussion for the ritual stuff that the Skeksis are doing.
00:28:00
Speaker
Harmony is used for the mystics. ah Even the like almost elf-like lyrical music used for Gelfling moments. There was some interesting music choices in the film.
00:28:18
Speaker
I can't really say much about the music. and it was it was It was very dramatic, heavy music, and it played well to set the tone for the scenes. um Other than that, I mean, yeah, you get your standard explosion sounds and battle sounds and sound of blades when they're doing the the challenge of the stone and cutting things off.
00:28:38
Speaker
you know there's there's a lot of good sound and background action going on with everything, even like the nature sounds as Jez traveling through the bogs and different things. yeah Even the creature sounds are pretty amazing.
00:28:51
Speaker
And then how Kira communicates with all the different creatures and the sounds that they're making. There's a lot that goes into all of that. And like you said, with like how long it took to make everything, even the sounds of the Skeksis and the Whales and Screams and stuff,
00:29:05
Speaker
there There is a lot to really build on there. But otherwise, the music, it just it just fits the tone. And I don't really have much else to say about it. It just it just. and It's saying it was supposed to. And there was.
00:29:20
Speaker
I don't I don't really have a lot more to say on that, because that's exactly correct. You guys are both like hitting it right nail on the head. It's like, ah yeah, everything worked really well with what was going on.
00:29:35
Speaker
at every time in the movie. The background sounds. I didn't catch it the first time I watched it, but the second time I was like, OK, I'm hearing all these nature sounds. Yes. This is what I'm looking for.
00:29:46
Speaker
You know, I'm hearing rocks crackling, falling down. I'm hearing vines coming down, picking picking them up. i was like, I hear it all. Water. So, yeah, everything was great.
00:29:59
Speaker
Sound wise, sound design I thought was really good. I think you you raise an interesting point here.
00:30:11
Speaker
um Is that this sound design, you forget you're watching... Like, everything in this movie is a soundstage.
00:30:22
Speaker
It's all puppet. And you forget that. Multiple points in this movie. And we're going to get into special effects of the very next category. But...
00:30:33
Speaker
you forget while watching it how much the sound has to do with creating that world and how if it was just silent and we heard like
00:30:46
Speaker
like that's not what we're getting well I believed and there's extended shots of just like nature in this that's all puppet even the one of there's like those plants that fly up into the air and there's like four of them that spiral up and it looked like it was filmed in reverse and then played forward to get that effect but still it's just the entire sequence is like i feel like i'm watching a foreign planet like it's fascinating so i think i think we would be
00:31:25
Speaker
ah I think we'd be remiss to not acknowledge how much the sound design creates this immersive world that we are seeing.
00:31:36
Speaker
The music itself is mostly fine. It's good stuff. It's not, I'm not running out to grab the dark crystal on vinyl. That's not, not my thing, but the sound design of the film creates a very real sounding world.
00:31:54
Speaker
So I had to give it credit there. I gave it a four.
00:31:59
Speaker
I came in high with a five. High five.
00:32:07
Speaker
For me, like said, with me, it it everything just did what was supposed to and it blended well. So I'm mid range at a three. Okay. And
00:32:19
Speaker
then the biggest part of this editing and special
Practical Effects and Puppetry
00:32:23
Speaker
effects. but but
00:32:27
Speaker
Who wants to start on this one? Yeah, Evan, you want to take this up? This is a big category. So we've got 1982. OK, I've seen we just watched ah the Rocky Horror Picture Show just a few weeks ago on our podcast.
00:32:45
Speaker
I compare could compare it to that. I could compare it to the Labyrinth, which was also around the same time frame. You know. This.
00:32:56
Speaker
I really hate to be such a bad sport about it is they did really good. i saw the Skeksis and I was like, okay. They're kind of nasty looking. Um,
00:33:10
Speaker
They did did good, I guess some of. Their like mouth, wide like mouthing and stuff like that. i was like, OK, where the hell are they speaking?
00:33:21
Speaker
How are they speaking? I'm like, OK, they're just speaking in their mind, whatever. ah It didn't take me a second to realize that those were internal thoughts a couple of times ah with Jen.
00:33:34
Speaker
Yeah, ah they did take me a couple of times to catch that. I will say when the first emperor when he died, I thought that was cool. I thought it was awesome. I was like, oh, man, what promisedo like I was like, that is so awesome. Like like that was really cool to do.
00:33:53
Speaker
I was going to say that is another one of those like a nightmare scenes for a child watching this is to watch the Emperor just turn black and crumble. That would that would have scarred like six year old me. I would have been. It was better than his counterpart, Mystic, fading out in sparkles.
00:34:09
Speaker
Yeah, the crumbling of the Skeksis Emperor was awesome. I consider that jet Jedi disappearing, if I may go into the Star Wars realm. a Frank Oz, so it works.
00:34:22
Speaker
ah But then like later on when you've got the general, he's drinking the soul out of the pod people. and his nose starts to grow back. You see his like veins start popping back up and you're like, oh, that's that's that's pretty neat little things right here going on.
00:34:40
Speaker
And then he deflates and you're like, oh, that's that's not super great. That's and that's terrifying, you know, for a kid. But, you know, maybe us being us is like, all right, we're adults. We see this type of stuff, but they're practical effects.
00:34:57
Speaker
to doing all of this with puppets is so good. Oh, yeah. Even when like she ah the pod people and and Kira are in the very bottom and they've got the planet suns beam down on them from the dark crystal beaming into them and sucking their souls out and they're deep like deflating like an old person.
00:35:20
Speaker
was like, oh, and then like that white eyes, i was like, all right. I can I can mess with this been a long time, but.
00:35:33
Speaker
Yeah, and then what was it the land striders you had the land striders at one point and rest those land striders man sort out of Salvador Dali painting I swear.
00:35:46
Speaker
i I long like bunny ears, poppy bunny ears looking things. Yeah, it was making me think of ah i don't I can't remember. It was like some weird Alice in Wonderland movie that I saw that was all puppets. And it was like, oh, man, and seeing them, i was like, those are kind of gross looking with their hairy ass arms and elbows.
00:36:07
Speaker
Tell them return to Oz. I don't think it was returned to Oz after we get off of here. I will send a lot of like puppetry and other stuff in there. lot creepy stuff. Really, really creepy. Like, I think like they get like wheel rollers. They were running around on that were kind of like that long limbed or something.
00:36:24
Speaker
Whatever they were. Something like that. I'll have to. I'll have to look it up after we get off of here and I'll send it to you and let everybody else know on here what I'm talking about. If you've seen it, you've seen it and you remember it and it's like terrifying.
00:36:39
Speaker
I was just trying to look at the Salvador Dali painting that those freaky things reminded me of. But go ahead. They were freaky looking. um And then you had like the ah the creature that came out of the water like a hippopotamus.
00:36:54
Speaker
Yeah. And you're like, oh, that that pops up Then all these little babies pop up underneath it and you're like, that just kind of looks sticky and kind of just gooey.
00:37:07
Speaker
OK, you're hitting on what I think is the magic and amazing part of this movie. I don't think the story is why people watch this movie. No, if I'm on that's that that's me.
00:37:23
Speaker
Jonathan did a very good recount of the story. And so Maybe it's the difference between watching it for the first time this week and seeing it when I'm younger. ah But to me, I'm watching this in like it is one thing after another of Jim Henson and Frank Oz going what wild awesome creature can we show you next?
00:37:47
Speaker
And it is just like we start with some basic ones and then like you said, oh, somebody sinking in. Were they sinking in quicksand, sanding in water basically?
00:37:59
Speaker
It was like a mud puddle. Yeah. And then she whistles and it stands up and you're like, oh, it's a creature. Oh, there's more to it. Oh, like that's how this movie unfolds. We see Agra with her device thing.
00:38:13
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. and A lot of amazing set design. that is um It is amazing. And that is the other thing, Jonathan, the set design, when you actually take two seconds and realize, oh, this is all puppetry.
00:38:29
Speaker
Those sets are miniature.
00:38:33
Speaker
They are full size sets. Humans couldn't walk on those sets. Those are sets meant for I'll be at large puppets. Uh, this is one where earlier it said no humans appeared on screen.
00:38:48
Speaker
I don't think that's true because I think the, the, I think maybe what it's saying online is that there's no actor delivering lines on the screen. Uh,
00:39:03
Speaker
portraying a character because there are a couple moments when Jen is like running in the distance and I'm like, that's a person in costume. Yeah. Because it needs bad too well.
00:39:15
Speaker
Yes. I'm like, that is a person moving in costume. So they must have had sets for that. There's and early on Jen like runs through the distance or down the mountain side like that is clearly somebody dresses Jen that and I'm fine with that. That's to me, that's being creative and using that skill to create that.
00:39:36
Speaker
um And then the Garthier, is that is that what i I just said their names? The beetle warriors?
00:39:45
Speaker
Whatever they're called. um The beetle creatures, let's just call them beetle creatures. Yeah, the giant beetle creatures. I have the Garthim. Garthim. I was close. Dirty beetles.
00:39:57
Speaker
They look like somebody covered in costume to me. So, which I'm fine with somebody covered in costume. ah Well, and it even says full body suits are used, but rod and hand puppetry radio controlled facial mechanics are ah The suits for the Gartham were so heavy, they had to be suspended between takes. to They were like, I thought I read 70 plus pounds.
00:40:25
Speaker
They were pretty big suits, dude. though that's a They're very elaborate. Big body action. Yes. But then we also have like the padron tree between the ceremonies, the Landstrider chase.
00:40:39
Speaker
ah
00:40:41
Speaker
I mean... the director of photography was Oswald Morris, who ah was an Oscar winner. But can you imagine being a director of photography and like, Hey, we're going to shoot this entire movie puppets.
00:40:57
Speaker
Can you make it look cool? And that leads to like the story book fantasy setting. It's it's like like watching a book come to life and the you can definitely see where the concept artist was an influence in a lot of these things but miniatures forced perspective painted backgrounds it's to me this is why the movie was made and this is where i kind of get on my critique is that i feel like they had this world this idea this vision for all of these things
00:41:40
Speaker
and then came up with a story.
00:41:44
Speaker
So and that's just that's just how I watched it the first time I could be wrong. I don't know. But to me, this was a visual device.
00:41:55
Speaker
Like it is just look at this look at the amazing puppetry and work because that I was amazed. There were multiple times throughout this watching the mystics even the Skeksis that I forget their puppets.
00:42:13
Speaker
I would totally forget their puppets. The only times that I've really had issues with it were Jen and Kira's face were a little too flat sometimes.
00:42:24
Speaker
And I wanted I wanted some more emotion. I mean, we still got Jen crying at the end, which was really nice. Like it's still good, but it's those little subtle cheek smiles and lip movements and things that I don't realize I'm missing until they're gone.
00:42:45
Speaker
I think it works really well when you're doing creatures like the mystics and isn't all of that. They look fantastic when you're doing a more human.
00:42:56
Speaker
face is when I noticed it dipped a little, but dipped a little. I mean, this, this was insane, insane.
00:43:08
Speaker
ah ah kind of agree with you, Tim, about the whole not being any like physical people thing in it. Aside from like the, the beetle, the dirty Beatles. Um, I feel like the parts were like, uh, Jen, when he's at agras and they are being attacked.
00:43:23
Speaker
I feel like that's an actor in a gen suit when he heats himself out that window. It's not just a flop. It seems like kind of short run stumbles and just flops out the window through like sugar glass kind of thing.
00:43:36
Speaker
And then towards the end when he's on that upper platform and he runs and jumps on the crystal, I feel like that's a small person in a suit also, even though like it's not an actual actor, you know?
00:43:50
Speaker
So I feel like there's some decent stunt work involved in that as far as that part of the manipulation. i would have to agree. But man, the special effects though, man, they they had some pretty awesome stuff that was epic for the time, especially considering it's 82 and what they were able to do with a lot of the perspective overlays of things and imposing characters over the images kind of because you can tell at the end there when you've got the urskex once they're reunited you've got the whole scenery then you've got the overlay of that see-through kind of part of the urskex while they're talking and then you can if you pay attention you could you could pretty much tell that that janet holding kira is another overlay on top of that
00:44:34
Speaker
You know, it seems pretty clear on that part, but still a really good effect. And just the the light effects of everything from the sun to the crystal, crystal to the Skeksis or from to the mystics and then the light that comes out of them to the Skeksis to bring them back together.
00:44:50
Speaker
you know, even like the parts where Jen, Jen escapes from Agra's and you can see the place burning in the distance. there's some more perspective overlay in that as well, but it's still a cool effect. And i really appreciate those classic 80s effects, man. there's There's something special about that that just really speaks to a sense of reminiscence of my childhood.
00:45:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's pretty hard to to to ignore that. I would have to agree with you there. ah i I had to give this a five. It's just impressive.
00:45:23
Speaker
The effects, the editing, is amazing. There's there's no way around it. There's no around it. I'm five also all day, every day.
00:45:37
Speaker
Oh, I am. I am a four. They're wrong. You. there That's fine. That's fine. yeah There are two pieces. There are a few pieces in this that kind of like threw me for a loop like a when Jenna is leaving out of ah what's her name?
00:45:56
Speaker
um Agra, when he is leaving out of that house, how does he fall down that hill? And yet he's so far away from Agra's house and there's no way that hill can drop that.
00:46:09
Speaker
I'm you're over analyzing a movie. I am. Yeah, I'm being critical. yeah He was pretty distant from her place when he's watching it burn and explode. Yeah. Yeah. You do got to wonder how he did move that fast, especially if he he hops out of a friggin window. And well, he knows he's so far he's still falling as he's going down. So it's like, ah
00:46:31
Speaker
I suppose. So I gave it a four. I would probably give it a five if it weren't for. I'm being hypercritical. I'll give it a five. Why not? See, I would even think like what you bring up is more of a director's point than I would say for the special effects.
00:46:52
Speaker
Because heard about that.
00:46:56
Speaker
As a director, I would be like, okay we got to explain how this character ended up so far away. But the effect is still amazing. All right. On to the next category.
00:47:09
Speaker
ah lost my paper. ah Script. Written by Odell. Last name Odell.
00:47:21
Speaker
And i I believe was Frank Oz had Henson and Oz were both involved in it a little. But I think Odell delivered the treatment.
00:47:34
Speaker
So. He apparently Henson had an earlier and much denser story.
00:47:47
Speaker
Which I kind of want to read his notes. I want to read his story.
00:47:53
Speaker
I would do that thing. Apparently his earlier ah earlier cuts featured the Skeksis and mystics speaking inverted languages of each other. Hmm.
00:48:07
Speaker
oh Okay. Well, that would make sense. That whole wholeness and the duality going on. but it was uh which might cause for some of the puppetry issues is there was they were speaking different languages with minimal or no translation and then in previews it was deemed confusing so odell wrote english translations and dubbed the mouse shapes okay all right so that was a late stage pivot and that might be why some of the
00:48:44
Speaker
mouths don't line up exactly not precisely i'm also like i'm watching puppets it's impressive so but but i'm not gonna i'm not gonna nitpick if they didn't get the exact number of syllables but the script itself go ahead guys hmm jonathan do you want to kick us off well i like the dialogue of it and i like how everything kind of paces along in the story.
00:49:18
Speaker
i mean I really don't have much to say about the script, like nothing that's deep in thought on it. I just like it for what it is. um i mean It's appealing as a family film because the way the dialogue set, there's nothing that's overly harsh or abrasive with language throughout the film.
00:49:34
Speaker
um It's more about the visual aspect of everything that that's in this film versus the dialogue. Although I do say that the the speaking parts between Kira and Jen are great. And then the dialogue between all the Skeksis when they're communicating and talking about trying to catch the Gelflings and Agra, she was sassy.
00:49:58
Speaker
I like Agra because she's a sassy character. yeah Especially when she's telling off the Skeksis after they bring her. She's like, I'm not Gelfling, blah, blah, blah, blah. blah Takes one of their bottles and sits down and has a drink. you know and She says just didn't give a shit. you know I think she was like ah she was cool how they wrote her as a character.
00:50:16
Speaker
But that and just the know the dialogue at the end with the Erskeks and you know just kind of like doing their whole thing, talking stuff out and explaining the situation. i don't know. like I don't have anything in depth to say at this part.
00:50:31
Speaker
The I felt like a lot of my issues understanding the story came from the script. We got our intro dialogue at the beginning, and I thought that was pretty great. I was kind of hooked at that intro dialogue. I'm like, OK, this is fascinating. Tell me more.
00:50:51
Speaker
And then the dialogue wasn't great. ah There were ah couple moments that I don't I didn't understand. It didn't resonate with me.
00:51:04
Speaker
Why Jen is like, okay, show me what I need to do. And I'm like, that's not it exciting. And then um there was one moment.
00:51:14
Speaker
This is a horrible, horrible, like this is not an exact quote. But Jen and Kira are like wandering somewhere and Jenna's basically like, well, where do we go?
00:51:26
Speaker
Like, I don't know what to do now. And she goes, oh, well, we do this now. And then it's like a lot of that really
00:51:36
Speaker
over simplistic. And that is where I'm like, Okay, this was also a kid's movie. Was it for for kids? I don't know. I'm a kid's movie. So we got to keep it somewhat simple. I'm gonna give it some leeway on that.
Dialogue and Writing
00:51:51
Speaker
But I also didn't
00:51:55
Speaker
it didn't hook me with the dialogue. So I wasn't. Yeah, I didn't exactly love the script. So I guess is what I'm saying. Evan, you have thoughts?
00:52:09
Speaker
There's not a whole lot that I took from the script. The one thing that always stuck with me throughout my entire life, even, you know, as soon as I watched it the other day, i was like, all right, let me see this.
00:52:22
Speaker
And the first thing that popped up was, of course, that hmm. Hmm. It was when it was when they're in the ruins. And ah Chamberlain is saying, please make peace, make peace, please. And he frickin just he like starts to like tilt his head and you're like, you can hear the hate in his voice and you're like, oh, man, that was nightmare fuel for me when I was a kid. And it's not nightmare fuel now, but even still, it's like it's kind of creepy.
00:52:57
Speaker
But yeah, not not a whole lot to say for the script. All right. Well, here we'll drop our scores. I feel bad, but I just thought the script was okay. I give it a two. I thought it was okay.
00:53:12
Speaker
I'm at a four. There are some some fun, small lines and a good bit of humor there, especially with Agra and some of the dialogue there. And then even like je like stuff between Jen and Kara. And he's like, well, when she pops out her wings, he's like, you got wings? i don't have wings. And boy, like he's supposed to know this, you know, I did laugh at that part.
00:53:34
Speaker
I did laugh out loud. I thought that was a nice moment. thought that was a nice moment. Yeah. yeah And then there was also the part where, uh, Jen gets tangled up in like the vines and meets Agra.
00:53:45
Speaker
And he talks about how the mystic's dead and she's like, where is he And he's like, he's dead. Oh, it could be anywhere then. Oh, you know, this is just like funny, small little bits and pieces in there, but overall I thought it was a four.
00:53:58
Speaker
OK, you know what? Since I'm already on the screen like this in between both of you guys, I'm going to continue this sandwich and I'm going to come in at a three. All right. We two, three, four. We did it. We did that.
00:54:11
Speaker
That's OK. The acting. Let's go to the acting here. This the acting is one that this is tough because there's no humans on the screen.
00:54:22
Speaker
So how are we judging this acting? You have in this case one person the puppeteer or multiple puppeteers moving our character and then we have another person essentially voice acting for that character later in the dub so you're kind of it's kind of like an animated movie i guess you're judging the the dub but there's another layer because there's still humans performing that puppetry and that is i tried to take that puppetry performance into my acting score i definitely let that influence because i don't think you can get away from this movie without acknowledging how good the puppetry is i mean we did it in special effects but also need to acknowledge it in the acting so i did but
00:55:18
Speaker
Which one of you wants to hop in? I didn't. I didn't take any consideration. Any of that. I did. I'm i'm
Acting and Puppetry Skill
00:55:27
Speaker
kidding. No, I without actors on the screen, you know, you just kind of try to go I'd say more along the lines of the dialogue. But even with that, you know, it's it's hard. That's the script.
00:55:40
Speaker
So I considered script in acting kind of in the same realm. Because without an actor on the screen, I just I can't see it. If I can't see it like that, I can't give you the props.
00:55:53
Speaker
But if I look at it for the perspective of the puppeteer doing it, I would be a little bit probably higher than I am. And that's just a faux pas on me. I didn't see it that way.
00:56:06
Speaker
So I don't have a mouth to say. That's OK. um I thought the acting was pretty good considering it's it's all puppetry. And even in some parts, you know, where you're trying to sync up the mouth movements with the dialogue.
00:56:22
Speaker
And even like you said earlier, Tim, with how they had to change certain parts to that because of like the inverted language parts. Even having to change that up last minute, I still think they did a good job of it and still kept things for the most part on track so that it didn't seem too off.
00:56:40
Speaker
So I was okay with it. I thought it worked out pretty well, considering it's all puppetry. you know especially Even with the sounds of the the characters and the creatures and the podlings and everything else, it all still seemed to go pretty well together. Yeah.
00:56:56
Speaker
um I mean, we talk about so the voices mean nothing to me. Honestly, if I'm looking at the list of performers, nothing I don't know.
00:57:08
Speaker
I don't I don't know who these people are. Steven Garlick was Jen. Lisa Maxwell is Kira. Billy Whitelaw, White, White Claw is Agra.
00:57:18
Speaker
Like these aren't names I know. the Muppets alums, though, Dave goals, Catherine Mullen, Steve Whitmire, and Henson and Oz, Frank Oz is a legend. We all know Frank Oz.
00:57:32
Speaker
Yeah. but the conceptual designer for these characters was Brian Froud, who later did labyrinth. And The production designer was Harry Lang, who had worked on Star Wars, but several of the puppeteers who worked on this movie later went on to do Return of the Jedi and the Ewoks and all of the puppetry in that movie.
00:57:59
Speaker
so that the puppeteers themselves have to have credit for this movie return of jedi so on there i mean this was the golden age of puppetry in film period so i was a four i was a four on the acting sweet i was a four as well yay
00:58:24
Speaker
There's no Jeff Dunham magic here on this part. I'm a three.
00:58:33
Speaker
Right on. Oh, man, that's cool. Okay, so the direction of the film directed split direction by Frank Oz and Jim Henson.
00:58:48
Speaker
ah
00:58:54
Speaker
I don't know how to i don't I don't even know how to sum this up. um
00:59:02
Speaker
I've never seen anything like this movie.
Direction and Visionary Approach
00:59:04
Speaker
I've never seen anything like it entirely. It's like watching. um
00:59:12
Speaker
It's not. It's so much more magical than watching an animated movie. Because there's something about an animated movie that still feels It's not physical. It feels disconnected. It feels like a cartoon.
00:59:28
Speaker
This one still feels physically real, but it's not humans in a way. It's animation because it's animated objects.
00:59:43
Speaker
And I don't even know how you begin to direct an entire movie and storyline the way Frank and Jim did. i insane.
00:59:56
Speaker
I was watching for like, hey, can I see where the set ends and like the puppeteer can like dip in? No, they did so good. You see like tricks of the camera.
01:00:07
Speaker
They don't show a lot of feet. You see one or a couple shots of Kira's feet in one scene. ah You see some further away shots that we said it clearly looks like a person in like and a costume.
01:00:21
Speaker
um And then There are more than a couple of, there's a lot of characters on screen. We don't see the legs at all. And it's just the amount of thought that has to go into how you present this film versus shooting a traditional scene is insane.
01:00:45
Speaker
I you like this is this screams passion project to me. Like, hey, I just have a bunch of creature designs. Like, let's just have some fun create in this world.
01:00:58
Speaker
And it's awesome to look at. And that's on the the directors. That's their vision. It's insane.
01:01:08
Speaker
Evan, there are i know this is my favorite category. Oh, OK, well, then let me hit it right here in the middle. um Yeah, direction. It was good. ah This is yeah like you said, nothing nothing that we've ever seen before or something that we've seen actually since then, you know, the whole development of everything.
01:01:31
Speaker
We were never going to see it, you know, with Henson passed away with Frank Oz has passed away, correct? Yeah, I think they're both gone. Let me like a Frank might be.
01:01:42
Speaker
Yeah, don't know about Frank, but yeah, Jim Henson definitely died a while back. Now, I was just playing around when I said Okay, yeah I was just playing around just a few moments ago when I said it's no Jeff Dunham.
01:01:54
Speaker
I was just kidding. Those two are legendary. I thought that was you said. I barely heard it. Oh, OK, yeah. Those two are legendary, you know, and without those two doing what they did together for half the things that we've gotten, you know, we wouldn't.
01:02:10
Speaker
I mean, I guess this would also fall into the it factor is we just wouldn't have. What we had, you know, if we didn't have this movie or the labyrinth, yeah you know?
01:02:23
Speaker
um I'm not going to talk too hard on it because if this is Jonathan's favorite subject, I'm not going to ruin it or talk too hard. So I'm just higher up on it then.
01:02:36
Speaker
Yeah, I'm higher up on it. So Jonathan. Yes, ah tip Tim is is is spot on with his sarcasm on on on this one for me. He was on record.
01:02:50
Speaker
Yeah, in just about every episode, i bring it up. yeah But you're you're right, though, Tim. It is hard to try and get give us any kind of like ah structured thoughts on directions since it's all puppetry and animatronics.
01:03:05
Speaker
um But i mean for the most part, it's all about the the angles, the shots, the close-ups as they're running away and chasing and then you know the the livelier moments of it all um there's some spots where you know where they you can tell that there's some there's an actor in costume because of the gelfling hands because they've got the three fingers in the thumb but then there's like a couple scenes where you see like the actor her hand who's got like the five fingers so it kind of throws off the illusion a little bit there but um
01:03:38
Speaker
But aside from that, i mean, the fact that they based everything off a concept and then kind of wrote a script as they went with it and still put this together was still pretty amazing. And I like the fact that Jim Henson wanted to kind of be dark, like a brother's grim fairy tale kind of situation. um Because, you know, based on I've read online, he liked the idea that children being scared was healthy for emotion.
01:04:02
Speaker
And so the way it was so lighthearted through a lot of it, but there were still those moments that could still be scary and fearful for a child without it getting too deep, um still speaks a lot to their credit for what they put together on this.
01:04:18
Speaker
Yeah, i I agree. I am a five on the direction. i was impressed.
01:04:27
Speaker
Lost Jonathan. Oh, that's okay. Evan, what were you? I gave it It'll be hard. Yeah, well, just happened. There you are I don't know what happened. Everything just did its own weird thing.
01:04:41
Speaker
That was weird. that guy Evan was just about to tell us his score. ah I gave the direction of four. I was chuckling when you said we didn't get, you know, too many feet shots or leg shots, because all I could think to myself was we're not watching a Quentin Tarantino film. Yeah, it's not. and And we're not and we're not watching Forrest Gump.
01:05:02
Speaker
You don't have the legs, Lieutenant Dan, but you're still making it. No, that Margaret for me. Slapping feet on the dash. Ooh. Or Uma Thurman wiggling her toes.
01:05:14
Speaker
so oh Yeah, I don't need that. I'm going a three on direction. Oh, wiggle your toes. No, wake I will not.
01:05:26
Speaker
Let's see them titsies. I love Kill Bill. I love Kill Bill. authentic All right. It's so good. all right. On the it factor cultural significance.
01:05:38
Speaker
So
01:05:41
Speaker
Does somebody want to take this one away? I do. Okay, go for it.
Cultural Significance and Influence
01:05:46
Speaker
So when it comes to it factor on this, I mean, Jim Henson, yeah and his own right, is a legend.
01:05:53
Speaker
And the work that he did inspired so many other people that we have an abundance of puppetry work and animatronics in so many other films after this. And it wasn't really a big thing prior.
01:06:09
Speaker
So this being 1982 and how this was a movie that was entirely puppetry and animatronics, was got those couple exceptions for the actors in suits for distance shots and things like that. Everything that came after it was incredible because I mean, this is 82 and then you've got 1984 where you've got the never ending story.
01:06:30
Speaker
And there was puppetry and animatronics of super epicness. you know and then from there you've got the stuff that you see in legend with tom cruise and um then from there labyrinth in 86 and all the amazing creatures that you saw there so jim henson's work is carried over into so many different things and the way it's inspired other people going forward you know with puppetry even though it's more of a ventriloquist thing with puppetry like with jeff dunham um
01:07:03
Speaker
There's a big impact there and the way that you can tell a story with puppetry and animatronics. um So I think he created amazing legacy that so many of people have tried so hard to follow.
01:07:15
Speaker
Even now, they're still, you know, the using puppetry and animatronics are still very prevalent. Like, was it the the happy Happy Time or Happy Town Murders? With, was it Jenny McCarthy?
01:07:32
Speaker
whole bunch of puppetry going on in that film. That was one of the most insane puppetry films I've seen. And that was fed fantastic. Definitely very adult themed, but super fucking cool.
01:07:45
Speaker
So I forgot that existed. And now I want to watch it, dude. Have you, have you seen it before? No. Oh, dude. Oh, my God. Yeah. The happy time murders. You got to watch. remember the trailer. good one Oh, my God. Like take take happy time murders. And then right after watching that, watch Team America World Police.
01:08:05
Speaker
Team America. Absolutely. There you go. i I can't believe forgot about that one. Yeah. All the marionette action in that one. Like, yeah, there's there's still place in the world for for puppetry.
01:08:17
Speaker
It's not something that should ever fall by the wayside. And I don't think it ever really will because there's always gonna be someone out there who finds purpose in that and all the next generations that will be inspired in it. and when they discover these things, how it will spur their imagination to do something awesome, I think has amazing significance.
01:08:37
Speaker
Yeah.
01:08:39
Speaker
It's hard to, it's hard to disagree with that. Go ahead. I was about to say, I agree completely all the way through that. You know, there's, many movies that came after it but i think what this was one of the first puppet movies like to be able to fully develop a whole movie based exactly on puppets but then you talking about happy time murders uh you got team america you've got never ending story you've got all these other things that just try to take a little bit but of course not all of it but just a little bit and just that little bit is what you need
01:09:19
Speaker
And I think that Jim Henson and Frank Oz are the creators and the ways to go about it.
01:09:27
Speaker
Sorry, sorry, ah Walt Disney. you're You're not that great. You're up here. So Disney's overrated. Yeah, that's right.
01:09:38
Speaker
So I was just curious. I was looking. I think this was the film, and so I have to I might have to change my score a little bit. I think this was the film that gave Jim Henson work.
01:09:54
Speaker
ah Before this movie. Why did my mouse just stop? Well, he's had a lot of stuff. He had a catalog of work before prior to this, maybe not as prevalent.
01:10:04
Speaker
He did. and then everything before this is kids. It's Hey, Cinderella, Tales from Muppet Land, the Muppets Valentine Show, Mupp Emmett Otter's Jug Band Christmas, the great Muppet paper, the fantastic Miss Piggy show like that's his work before this.
01:10:25
Speaker
And then he did the Dark Crystal. And then I think that's when people like George Lucas like I mean, he did. Well, Yoda wasn't a thing on the first Star Wars movie.
01:10:36
Speaker
um I think this put eyes on him for creature design for using this puppetry, this stuff in other films.
01:10:50
Speaker
So I think this is the movie that George Lucas looks at this and goes, we need this guy for star Wars. so And I don't know, I'm not looking exactly at the timeline.
01:11:01
Speaker
ah It's hard to figure out where his influence goes under all the credits. He's got 43 directing credits, 99 acting credits, 72 producer credits.
01:11:13
Speaker
and God. Which one is exactly like... his influence on creature design and puppetry for a small scene in a movie. That's what I can't tell.
01:11:25
Speaker
But I think this is the movie that made other directors look at and go, we can do adult puppets. We can do mature themes and storytelling using puppets so we had something similar with jason the argonauts i'm not saying this is the first time uh did a lot of stop motion for jason and the argonauts but i'm saying this is the movie that made studios look to jim henson for that work so i think i think this is the one that people are like we need jim that's
01:12:05
Speaker
Did you see dark crystal? We need him for this. So that has, I have to take into consideration outside of that. This movie is a movie that I have seen my entire life. I've seen the box of the VHS on the shelf.
01:12:20
Speaker
I remember looking at it at the library when I was a kid. I remember being fascinated by it, but I never watched it. Never watched it. I never, I don't remember.
01:12:32
Speaker
I knew of its existence, but I don't remember anybody being like, it's the best movie ever. You need to see it. So I was ah originally a three, but after talking about it and realizing that I think this is what brought studios to Jim, I think I have to give it a four because I think this was him saying puppets are more than a more than Sesame Street, more than the Muppets.
01:13:00
Speaker
So I have to give it four.
01:13:03
Speaker
I can get down with that. Yeah. I gave it a three as well. But the conversation that we've had, you know, reviewing this and talking about it, you're right.
01:13:15
Speaker
Yeah. um I'm with I'm a four with it. I had a three. I'm with a four. This is what we were getting. You know, this is how things got to be. What they came for for is from these guys.
01:13:30
Speaker
You know, yeah, we would have never had it. I don't think, you know, even with the Muppets, nobody would have came up with the same idea as the Muppets. And then to come to the Dark Crystal out of just like child friendly and then to this, it's like this could be taken for adults.
01:13:47
Speaker
and children at the same time. Yeah, it is. Yep. Oh, and let's not forget Fraggle Rock. Oh, yeah, Fraggle Fraggle Rock.
01:14:00
Speaker
Fraggle Rock actually was that the concept of the underground mining creatures was actually supposed to be part of this, but they took that out. and And it becoming used as part of that as a show instead.
01:14:11
Speaker
So also still a little more impact there, still something extra awesome. And not only that, but then if you think about Nickelodeon in the nineties, dude, Eureka's castle. but Yeah.
01:14:22
Speaker
Eureka's castle. Awesome. Yeah. You know, that a lot of puppetry in there. ah don't know if Jim Henson had anything to do with that, but I think Nickelodeon did an awesome job using puppet trees with storytelling as a kid show along with Fraggle rock too.
01:14:37
Speaker
So for me, it's a four all day. So we hit the trifecta here, boys. Yeah. yeah Yes. All in agreement. Is this the first time on this episode? Yes, I believe so.
01:14:49
Speaker
Yeah. Evan, you change your score on special effects to five, didn't you? Yes. Yes, I did. Yeah. but We were on agreement there as we should be. ah So let's do our how entertained were you out of 10 and your final thoughts on this movie?
Personal Reflections and Entertainment Value
01:15:08
Speaker
Evan, as our guest, why don't you kick us off? How do you want to take my entertain? Do you want to take my entertain from when I was a kid or do you want to take my entertained as an adult? hey take Take it today as an adult, how an as an adult, it was a six.
01:15:26
Speaker
OK, as a kid, as a kid, I would have probably gave it a ten all day long, a ten because I remember it being so good. But just this couple go around, it was like.
01:15:40
Speaker
There were some times I just kind of got bored other than like the beauty of the set. And like everything to go, like the sound, the set, everything was beautiful. But just some things were just lacking.
01:15:53
Speaker
And I was like, hmm, like I'm a little bit bored at times. so I had tried my best not to look at my phone when I'm watching their you know movie to review it. But I looked at my phone and I was like, man, if I'm looking at my phone, I've got to be lower down on it than what what I want it to be, unfortunately.
01:16:17
Speaker
t That is fair. So Jonathan, why don't you close us out? Because you can be a nice little sandwich for. um i so I was a five.
01:16:32
Speaker
I actually there are a couple of things for me in this film that. I almost went lower in all honesty, because like Evan said, i was bored for a little bit.
01:16:47
Speaker
And I think for me, my issue on this movie lies with a couple things. I'm jaded by modern technology in films to where some of this looks so cool because it's puppetry, but it's not enough to engage me with like staring in wonder at the screen because it's not something new to me. I've seen puppetry a lot, just not to this expanse.
01:17:18
Speaker
So it's not something new. I was watching it going, i wish I could see this for a first time. in the 80s. Yeah. That because I'm sure I'd be like, holy crap.
01:17:29
Speaker
I'm still amazed at what they pulled off. But we've seen Avatar, which I hate that movie, but it was a sense one of wonder. It's this magnificent sense of wonder seeing this movie that looks like that.
01:17:45
Speaker
So and that's I mean, that is Pocahontas just repackaged with special effects. But that is I wonder if that is the sense of wonder people had seeing this in 82 the way we did seeing Avatar in 2008. And that's that's what I'm seeing in the comparison and why it doesn't stack up as much today.
01:18:06
Speaker
The other part for me is not having the character development at the beginning slash end and then made me miss emotion on the characters faces and voices so those two things disconnected me from jen and kira i didn't have enough having more characters set up at the beginning to make me connect to jen would have worked and i could have gotten past the lack of emotion on faces
01:18:38
Speaker
having no character set up at the beginning but more emotive faces would have kept me interested i think the combination of two gold i'm not saying it was terrible emotive faces i'm just saying i never realized how much i needed that in a movie until you see a puppet do it And then when you see a puppet do it, you go, oh, I really don't relate to this thing at all.
01:19:02
Speaker
And that's that, that I felt that on it. So I do think this is a movie with a deeply fascinating world. I think it is incredibly visually stunning to look at and just see how they pulled this off.
01:19:20
Speaker
So many artists worked so hard and made it look so good. I just needed a little bit more of a compelling story or character to just hook me in.
01:19:33
Speaker
So that is why I'm at a five. I don't, I don't think it's a bad movie at all. It's just not one that I'm going to be quick to recommend. Okay.
01:19:44
Speaker
So this movie came out the year before I was born. So this film is over 40 years old. And there's definitely a difference from the wonder that I experienced seeing it as a child in the 80s versus how I view it when I see it now with how much more I know about film and puppetry and animatronics.
01:20:07
Speaker
So it doesn't quite hit the same way, sadly, but I do still enjoy it, but it just doesn't have as much of a high note now as it did back then. So despite all that, um um' I'm still giving it good marks. I still feel like this is a solid seven for me.
01:20:24
Speaker
And it's something that a lot of people know I can talk about with a lot of folks that I grew up with. And it's something that a lot of people have a sense of commonality when it comes to film. So I think seven is a good place to be on this.
01:20:37
Speaker
Yeah. So that put I have our totals. Jonathan, you have your total. I do, sir.
01:20:46
Speaker
You Evan, you are a 37. I was keeping track. Okay, I was about to say I have not been doing any math. I'm sorry, my bad. You are 37. I should know. Jonathan, what were you?
01:20:58
Speaker
I am a 39.
01:21:01
Speaker
And I was a 34. So combined, getting our average out of that, it came out to 36.66666 or 37. Fantastic.
01:21:12
Speaker
So it is basically three and three quarters star. Almost four stars. I can't remember if I round 37 because it's 36 and probably round this to 35.
01:21:28
Speaker
and not yeah so this would be three and a half stars out of four for your social gathering event but that is where we are at on dark crystal any final thoughts on that i just got a quick question for you guys yeah what the hell was going on with chamberlain when he started getting stripped down what in the absolute hell was going on there he was screaming like they were doing stuff. that's to honest one That scene was another one of those that I was like, this is kind of disturbing. This is scary.
01:22:07
Speaker
They're required that installation of fear in children. to The fact that everything can be stripped away from you in a moment's notice. This is a children horror movie consequence of failure and being cast out.
01:22:19
Speaker
Yeah, it it's a hard thing to see when you're being attacked by the only people you know, in this place that you've been in for over 1000 and getting kicked the fuck out. You know, that's that's a that's a pretty scary situation to be in.
01:22:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. ah The best the best. ah Best children's horror movie is still Monster House, but this is a pretty close second.
01:22:45
Speaker
Monster House is amazing. Monster House is good stuff. It's so good. All right. We ready to read us out, Jonathan? Let's get out of cabin. So, folks, that wraps up our journey through the mystical, sometimes terrifying world of The Dark Crystal.
01:23:03
Speaker
A world of puppets, prophecy, and maybe more nightmare fuel than anyone actually bargained for. True. Whether you saw it as a childhood wonder or a childhood trauma, it's undeniable that Henson and Company gave us something unlike anything else in fantasy canon.
01:23:22
Speaker
And that's exactly why it's still worth talking about today. Even if I don't love the movie, everybody should see this movie once. And hey, if you're loving these deep dives into nostalgia and nightmare fuel, check out some of my books on Amazon under Timothy James. The link is in the YouTube thing below.
01:23:42
Speaker
Right. So we don't say it enough. Support indie creators. It means the world to them. And speaking of support, huge thanks again to Evan from the Kilt in Redneck podcast for hanging out with us tonight.
01:23:54
Speaker
Hey, I appreciate you guys every time that you guys let me get on here and shoot the shit with you guys. It's always a good time. We love having you. And you're usually um you're usually hanging out in the comments with us, even if you aren't a guest.
01:24:09
Speaker
So comment section was quiet tonight without you in there. Well, I'll be back for the next episode that you guys do not on here, course, with you guys, but I'll i'll get on there and I'll review. I do believe the next one is I'm super excited because this is one.
01:24:27
Speaker
The never ending story is the movie that I grew up watching like weekly. I watched fantastic that movie all the time, but I haven't seen it in decades. So I am curious to see if the revisit.
01:24:41
Speaker
Am I disappointed? Or do I love it? Am I ready to cry when the horse dies in the quicksand? Oh, I'm talking about R-Tax right now. Come on. Yeah, when I am ready to cry about R-Tax.
01:24:55
Speaker
Anyways, Evan, we couldn't have done it without you. Now, don't forget to like this stream, hit that subscribe button, and ring that little bell so you don't miss the next episode of our childhood fantasy series talking about the never-ending story.
01:25:11
Speaker
That's right. We still got a lot of wild ones to come. You're not to want to miss it. I think Travis from the nightclub is our guest for the never ending story.
01:25:22
Speaker
o So that'll be a fun one. So, all right, everybody, thanks for tuning in. This is the average where the real review happens with your friends.