Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
S3.E2: Tearing Into Leigh Whannell’s Wolf Man with Aaron from A&B Horror Movies
30 Plays3 months ago
Breaking Down Leigh Whannell’s Wolf Man with Special Guest Aaron from A&B Horror Movies
Welcome back, Average Reviewers! This week, we’re joined by the brilliant Aaron from @abhorrormovies (A&B Horror Movies) to take a deep dive into Leigh Whannell’s Wolf Man. 🐺
Aaron brings his extensive horror knowledge and fantastic insight to the table, making this one of our most engaging discussions yet. Together, we explore why Wolf Man has divided audiences, dissect what works (and what doesn’t), and dig into the film’s deeper themes.
We’re all about celebrating how we each view movies differently, so don’t forget to drop your thoughts in the comments below!
🎙️ Huge thanks to Zencastr for powering this episode. Want to start your own podcast? Zencastr makes recording high-quality audio and video easy. Check them out here: https://zencastr.com/?via=theaverage
💬 Have your own review of Wolf Man? Share it with us—we love hearing your take!
Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more movie breakdowns, reviews, and awesome guests!
#TheAverageReviewsPodcast #WolfMan #LeighWhannell #HorrorMovies #Podcast #ABHorrorMovies #Zencastr #MovieDiscussion #HorrorFans #FilmTalk
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'The Average' Podcast
00:00:30
Speaker
This is Tim. This is Jonathan. Welcome back to The Average, where we don't just review movies, we dig in into what makes them unforgettable. We're talking everything, script, acting, music, direction, the ingredients that make a movie ah more than just a film. Everyone brings their own perspective to the table. What hits home for me might not resonate with you, and that's what keeps things interesting.
00:00:55
Speaker
Exactly. And that's why we want you to join the conversation. We'll rate the movies, but your thoughts are just as important. Whether it's a brand new blockbuster or an old school cult classic, we're diving in. And you know, we're ready for the weird and the wonderful. Or go head to head on big debates. Let's be honest, our opinions don't always align.
00:01:16
Speaker
But that's the fun of it. We're here to celebrate movies, spark some debates, and share different perspectives.
Engagement and Special Guest: Aaron on Horror
00:01:23
Speaker
Before we jump into today's episode, remember to like, follow, and subscribe, whether you're on YouTube, Instagram, or your favorite podcast platform. Your support keeps us going. And don't forget to hit the bell icon so you're always in the loop. Trust us, you don't want to miss everything we've got lined up for this season. So speaking of exciting things,
00:01:41
Speaker
I've got something to share. We've got something to share as of this week. My new horror novel, The Harvest of Briarville is now available on Amazon. It's not real thick. If you get the hardback, it's less than 200 pages. Nice, quick read. So if you're into creepy, suspenseful tales, rural settings on a farm, small cast of characters, you'll definitely want to check it out. On top of that, Jonathan and I, as of this week, are working on an audio book with Jonathan reading it. So we're we're putting that voice of his to good use. and Yes, sir. It's a must read for any horror fan. ah Now for today's episode, we're thrilled to welcome special guest Aaron from A and&B horror movies and Aaron's movie page. If you love deep dives and into horror, you're going to love this. So Aaron, joining us to talk about Lee Wandell's latest Wolfman. We're super excited to have you. Thank you for being here.
00:02:39
Speaker
ah Thank you both for having me on. This is going to be fantastic. I look forward to chatting about Wolfman and being a guest. This is great. Yeah. So you want to tell anybody who, let's be honest, e most of the people listening to to us have probably ah already heard of you or seen you or follow you on Instagram. So, but you want to applaud what you do for those of the listeners who might not know.
00:03:04
Speaker
Absolutely. So I co-host a YouTube channel, as you mentioned, called A and&B Horror Movies. I co-hosted it with my friend in the UK. So we kind of bring that spin to it. I'm in the States. He's in the UK. So it's really cool to to have those different perspectives. We launched it a couple of years ago, and it just keeps on growing. And so we are on Instagram. And I also have an Instagram page where I focus on pretty much horror movies for the most part, and that is Aaron's Movies 8 by 8.7.
00:03:32
Speaker
so you can find me on there and also on YouTube. I think that's where I found you. I started getting your little movie recommendations and I love seeing those. I started adding them to my list. I know I've messaged you a couple of times about like, oh, I got to check that one out. So I love it. Great
Wolfman's Evolution: Lon Chaney Jr. to Benicio del Toro
00:03:50
Speaker
content, man. So thank you again for being here. So before we dive into Wannell's take, let's talk about the evolution of the Wolfman in cinema.
00:04:01
Speaker
It all started with Lon Chaney Jr. in 1941 portraying the tragic character of Larry Talbot in Universal's The Wolfman. His performance laid the groundwork for the werewolf as a sympathetic monster cursed by forces beyond his control.
00:04:18
Speaker
Yeah, Chini's portrayal set the tone for decades, blending horror with pathos. ah The character became a staple of Universal's monster lineup, appearing in various crossovers ah like Frankenstein Meets the Wolfman and House of Dracula. And correct me if I'm wrong, isn't he in one of the Abaddon Costello Meets movies? i I know we have the Invisible Man, Frankenstein,
00:04:46
Speaker
I cannot remember that is on my list. Someday I would love to just go through the Abbot and Costello horror movie. They're horror comedy. Cool. That's what I was raised on. So I'm pro- I can't remember exactly. So let's fast forward to 2010 when Benicio del Toro took on the role in The Wolfman.
00:05:08
Speaker
combining wolf and man into one word at this time, a more gothic and visually intense remake. While it tried to capture the essence of the original, it leaned heavily into the tragic romance and dark atmosphere, though it didn't quite hit the same iconic status.
Lee Wannell's 2025 Reboot: A New Take on Wolfman
00:05:24
Speaker
Yeah, so with Lee and Wano's 2025 reboot, we see a big shift. Wano's Wolfman blends like the psychological horror that he's known for with a modern take on the classic story. It's no longer just about the curse of the werewolf. It's about the psychological and familial toll it takes, which feels very contemporary.
00:05:44
Speaker
And that evolution is what keeps the Wolfman relevant, from Cheney's cursed everyman to del Toro's tortured nobleman, and now to Abbott's modern family man. Each iteration reflects the fears and anxieties of the time.
00:06:00
Speaker
Ronald's version taps into the idea of protecting loved ones from the monster within, a theme that resonates deeply in today's context of familial and personal responsibility. It's fascinating to see how this character has transformed over the decades, always maintaining that core tragedy, but evolving with the times. So whether you're a fan of the classic universal monster or new to werewolf lore, Wolfman offers a fresh perspective while paying homage to its roots.
00:06:29
Speaker
So let's dig into Lee Wannell's Wolfman. This 2025 horror reboot of the classic Wolfman from 1941 brings a fresh, terrifying take on the iconic Wolf's werewolf story. Wannell co-wrote the screenplay with Corbett Tuck and the film stars Christopher Abbott, Julia Garner and Sam Yeager. It follows a family man who, while trying to protect his wife and daughter from a werewolf, becomes infected himself, leading to his own monstrous transformation.
00:06:59
Speaker
Jason Blume produced it under Blumehouse Productions, so you know it's got that signature Blumehouse touch. And with Stefan Duceo on cinematography and Benjamin Wallfish handling the score, it's visually striking and sonically chilling experience.
Production Journey of the New Wolfman Film
00:07:11
Speaker
The film had an interesting journey to screen originally announced back in 2014 as part of the Universal's Dark Universe. It went through several iterations after the underwhelming response of The Mummy in 2017, not the fantastic Brendan Fraser Mummy, the Tom Cruise Mummy. Universal shifted gears to standalone films.
00:07:36
Speaker
Wannell's success with The Invisible Man in 2020 revived interest in these classic monsters and the Wolfman found a new direction. It's fascinating how the film evolved with Ryan Gosling initially pitching the reboot and even being set to star, but after Derek Chien-France exited as a director and Gosling stepped away from the lead role, Lee Wannell took over and reshaped the project.
00:07:58
Speaker
filmed in New Zealand in early 2024, Wolfman hit theaters on January 17th, 2025. It's got a runtime of 103 minutes. And while it's received mixed reviews, it's definitely a conversation starter, especially for fans of classic horror. It's interesting to see how the film balances its homage to the original Wolf or the original Wolfman while injecting one of those modern horror sensibilities.
Werewolf as Illness: Personal Reflections
00:08:23
Speaker
There's a lot to unpack, especially with how it handles the theme of transformation and monstrosity.
00:08:28
Speaker
And that's what we're here for. So let's break it down category by category. We are getting into it now. So this story will have just open conversation about each category. Aaron, if you think of something, interrupt us. I try not to interrupt, but sometimes that happens. Uh, but we're just going to bounce off each other, talk about each element of it. And at the end of that particular little moment, we'll give it a score out of five and how we think it stacks up.
00:08:58
Speaker
So let's get going with the story itself. So we kind of touched on how this story is different than the others. I want to preface this for me. I'm i'm not real big on werewolf lore. Not really Forte. ah I took this as Wolfman movie, not werewolf movie. And I think there's I think there's something different in this movie in that element alone because this kind of strayed from werewolf territory. I went back after this, watched the Lon Chaney Jr. one, and then I watched the Benicio del Toro one. And both of those are werewolf movies. This one is not. This one I felt was more Wolf Man movie. So that that in itself I thought was interesting and you take because one of the main elements that I noticed in the story
00:09:58
Speaker
And I could be wrong, but in the previous versions, the Wolfman only appeared during a full moon. This one, once the transformation happened, he was stuck like that. Yeah, no
Innovative Lore: Infection Over Curse
00:10:14
Speaker
curse. It's more infection than curse. like you You don't really see any curse. It's just this form of infection that takes over and transforms you. You know, so it kind of really changes, it's real different from that that classic story that you get for it.
00:10:28
Speaker
So I have eggs exactly. OK, go ahead, Aaron. Yeah, I was just going to say, yeah, exactly. There's no full moon. There's no werewolf lore in it it. It's very different from like werewolves that just came out. Stephen Miller's film, um which is more action and over the top. This is more subtle and ah a different approach. So if you're going in expecting a werewolf movie,
00:10:50
Speaker
I think the audience is surprised to get something very different. Yes. And I think that comes, I mean, we, it's going to be hard to talk about this without talking about, well, I've seen reviews all over the place. I've seen one out of five stars. I've seen four out of five stars. So some people really enjoyed this movie. Some people didn't. I know we've got a diverse response right here. So that's what I'm excited about. But I was reading that he was actually inspired, Lee, when he was writing it, he was inspired by
Pandemic Inspiration: Themes of Isolation and Illness
00:11:19
Speaker
the COVID-19 pandemic and lockdowns. And so that kind of inspired the way he approached this. And you can, once you know that, you can see it. Watching the family member become sick, locked inside this house alone, you know, that sense of isolation really leans into this story, especially compared to
00:11:42
Speaker
2010's version, there's hundreds of characters. It's insane. This one, there's four. you know It's really slimmed down. i This is an area where I appreciate some of what he did. I don't necessarily know how well he pulled it off, but I thought all right some of the things that stood out to me that were relevant, but it didn't hit home, was watching this transformation take a person you love.
00:12:12
Speaker
So it's almost, I don't know if it's a metaphor or analogy, one of those things, about watching someone you love growing ill and losing themselves to that illness. And so having just lost a grandfather last year and watching him slowly degrade over time, it's hard to watch. It's heartbreaking. And I could see that that's what they were going for. I'm not sure, like, I'm not sure I felt it as much as I wanted to with it. like I think there's something poignant there, but I'm not sure how much it hit me. That was something I noticed that was new to this version of the story, I felt. like It's always been there, watching that person lose themselves, but this one really leaned into the heartbreak of the slow transition.
00:13:05
Speaker
Yeah, the family is a ah central focus in this film and I think but think what you're speaking to is that it was trying to be poignant and maybe a little bit heavy-handed in some ways and maybe that's why it fell flat um because they spent so much time on the characters and character development.
Family Dynamics: Comparisons to 'The Fly'
00:13:23
Speaker
But I don't know, the payoff just wasn't good enough, I guess I would say, without without giving anything away about the film. Yeah. we we tend to We try not to spoil when it's in theaters during release, but if we want to, ah because i did the ending reminded me of another movie that I thought did it significantly better. Oh, come on, which movie? Yeah, got tell us what's coming. Okay, The Fly.
00:13:53
Speaker
Oh, the fly. yeah eighty six karenberg five Yeah, the ending. I'm watching that going, man, I i felt it way more on the fly than I do right now, even though it had very, very similar ending. Uh, the fly hit home for me. This one I felt like, oh, that's the fly's ending is how I felt. but So other than that, though. Wow.
00:14:19
Speaker
wow That's a great comparison, right? Because the fly is like one of the best love stories in horror. Maybe ah Return of the Living Dead 3 comes to mind as well. And I just didn't feel that with this one. I don't know if it was the chemistry between the leads or the pacing. I don't know. It's hard to put my, I can't put my finger on it. i think Part of the story with like how the relationship between husband and wife was kind of rocky already kind of takes away from it a little bit. So you don't feel as emotionally invested like you would have been like with the situation with the fly. um So it's it's that sense of, you know, dad's looking more out for his daughter while marriage is failing kind of situation. It's like ah sad, but as a slightly different kind of context of feeling than what you had in the fly. Absolutely.
00:15:11
Speaker
But yes, go ahead, Jonathan. So with the story itself, though, I like how the there is less there's like, no, there's not so much of the lore of like a curse. But you get that. I can't remember what the name was. Like you see at the beginning credits in like the start of the story where they have that that little bit where they're talking about it has more of a native influence with, you know, creatures from like native lore versus what you get from this like horror story lore.
00:15:38
Speaker
got a situation. It had a really interesting name. And now I can't remember it. And now I'm just like, ah dude, get it together. No, I thought that element to the story was interesting. Honestly, the kind of changing it from the curse, even though it's it still occurs, but changing it to an illness that could almost be caught by anybody.
00:16:04
Speaker
i That part was
00:16:09
Speaker
All right, so let's bring up his Invisible Man. His Invisible Man was a fantastic reimagining of that modern day story. I love the Invisible Man movie. That was part of my hype going into this movie. That's why it made our list to review because he did an amazing job with that. so i and Can I just say that was the last movie I saw in the theater before lockdown?
00:16:37
Speaker
Really? Wow. Speaking of lockdown and COVID, that was the last film. That's that's a wild thing to compare it because I remember wanting to see it and I watched it at home during lockdown. So I was... Yes. no Yeah. I remember you could buy it. I was like, this is so normal because it was late February and lockdown was in March. was that Yes. And anyway, interrupt. No, no, absolutely. Do that anytime you want. Anytime you need to do something, say it. We have a structure, but not really, so you can kind of perform it if you want. And it's okay. It's totally okay. It is all I'm talking about. Good time. Of course.
Influence and Direction: Wannell's Vision vs. Studio
00:17:09
Speaker
So that movie I thought was truly inspired. I thought that was fantastic. It had moments
00:17:20
Speaker
Like the the restaurant scene with her friend, he had moments that caught you by surprise, shocked to you. The ending was fantastic. So part of why I think a lot of people are disappointed in this film is they have that high expectation of what he did with Invisible Man. After watching the previous two Wolfman movies, I think he did a good job bringing it, kind of changing it, updating it a little bit.
00:17:50
Speaker
It seems to me the difference here is where I feel like Invisible Man was an inspired recreation. I feel like this one was a the studio wants you to do this. Come up with it, like more studio pressure to create this one. And that's why there's those moments, those ideas that feel like we were going for something bigger, that as Aaron said earlier,
00:18:18
Speaker
just a little heavy handed in the execution. And part of me wonders how much of that is studio interference? How much of that was Lee's concept coming to fruition? Where does that lie? I it's this movie left me a little bit perplexed. However, I did appreciate a lot of what they tried. So ultimately, for the story,
00:18:45
Speaker
I came out with a four out of five, because like I said, I did like interjecting some of those new elements, making it kind of about watching a family member descend, lose themselves to an illness. I like those elements. I'm not sure it delivered on the family drama quite as much as it needed to, to be successful. So that's where I'm at.
00:19:14
Speaker
Did you say four out of five? Yep, I'm four out of five. yeah okay Okay, so for me, next I was five out of five because this was so vastly different from what we'd normally see when it comes to a werewolf movie. And with the different play of elements with how you see with like the family breakdown trying to rebuild and then this happening, this tragedy and you know, everyone's still trying to keep it together. Um, and then the way it turned out and like the way it loops from like some of the stuff that you see in the beginning to the end and how it just has kind of comes back around in certain elements. I thought it was wonderful. So for me, I just, I thought it was great the way they handled it with the story. So yeah, I'm vibing it, man. All right. All right. Aaron, where did you land?
00:20:01
Speaker
Zero. Oh gosh. zero is No, no, no, no. It's horrible. It's horrible. I'm kind of between a three and a four. I feel like it's not ah a new, um I mean, maybe if let's go with a four because I feel like he did breathe new life into the wolf man story. um I feel like a troubled marriage has been done so many times. And I don't think there was anything new there. In fact, it almost seemed like the two characters had no interest in each other whatsoever. And it's like, why even bother? There's one scene where he's asking his wife, let's go away. And the look on her face is like, she'd rather just stay in work than spend time with them. So it's like, why even do you know what I mean? yeah In a film, the work where there's a troubled marriage, you've got to show somehow that they still love each other. And I didn't get, I didn't get that. And when you don't have that.
00:20:56
Speaker
You sort of lose the audience. i think um But I don't know. um Maybe I'm being too hard on on the film. i I did enjoy it. So I would say story-wise, let's go with four. I'll agree with you two. That was an excellent segue into the next category, which is the
Character Dynamics and Emotional Depth
00:21:12
Speaker
characters. So discussing the characters. I jumped ahead. I'm sorry. No, you're good.
00:21:16
Speaker
they lead right into it so we'll discuss the characters and their arc throughout this movie because like you said that was probably my biggest issue with this film is I never felt that connection between Julia Garner and ah Abbott playing the lead. Okay k Chris Abbott and if I'm honest I put that on Chris. Christopher Christopher. I put that on him because I thought Julia Garner was good. She was really good. If you saw the apartment, 20, seven, eight, seven, eight, Rosemary's baby prequel. Yeah, I haven't. yeah she She was really good in that. It's
00:22:05
Speaker
um If you like Rosemary's Baby, it's worth watching. If you don't like Rosemary's Baby, just give it. But Rosemary's Baby is one of my favorites. um She's really good in that. Seeing her in this is like a bit of a different role, and she I thought she did well. What didn't connect with me was nice guy Christopher at the beginning of the film. I thought I liked him much better as the sick wolf man towards the later part.
00:22:34
Speaker
But when he was trying to make those emotional connections at the beginning, it felt a little, ah to use that word again, a little heavy handed for me. It felt a little bit like we're trying, we see him and his father in that opening sequence that I thought was actually pretty good. I thought that was a pretty good opening sequence and I was intrigued. And then we see that basically,
00:23:04
Speaker
his father might have been a little rough around the edges and a little rough with him growing up. And then so what we see is him being super gentle with his daughter. So we kind of see two different sides and of parenting in that respect. And I also feel like there's definitely that message in this film when later during a end of the second act reveal.
00:23:33
Speaker
but the becoming the parents storyline is there. And that's where I didn't connect with him on that super gentle way that he was handling everything. And he just seemed like even when he showed up with lunch for his wife, like there was something away about the way that was handled that I didn't, it didn't resonate. He wasn't standing there with flowers and food greeting her. He was sitting off to the side, like pouting, hoping she had noticed him. And that's just, I know that's nitpicking. But because of that, when they're getting into these emotional moments later, I'm not feeling that connection.
00:24:23
Speaker
You know, I got the impression they were on the brink of divorce and yes. Okay. and it didn't seem authentic Yes. And so there was no deep moment of love to make me think that his transformation was, it was more heartbreaking for the daughter than it was for the mom. Yes. So. agree So that is where, I don't know, there was a bit of a disconnect. And then the daughter's just reaction at the end was a little bit like, there were no tears. You know, from the daughter specifically, it was yeah that's that's what he wants. So this is where the movie kind of lost me a little bit was on that character drama that
00:25:19
Speaker
I don't know, it didn't. I can't quite say exactly what moment it was that it didn't connect with me, but I could, I give it credit for trying. It was trying to add something new to this. I'm just not sure it landed for me. So.
00:25:41
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, like I said, it didn't feel authentic. It was almost like what's the expression you could see through the day. You could see. sort of the acting element. And having him sit off to the side when he brought her lunch, it was again, it looked like he'd rather be anywhere else in the world than where he was in that moment with her. So I think maybe if they had thrown in some more tender moments, I mean, I don't know, something to show that there is a love here. The moment that they're like singing in the car together. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was silly. And I felt like they were a family in that moment.
00:26:18
Speaker
Yeah, of course. Okay. So maybe more. um Um, I don't know. It's, it's hard to say. I mean, they're both fantastic actors and, and it does work on some level, but it just kind of misses the mark. The character wise, I thought the daughter and mean the actress was fantastic. Um, I mean, how many times have we seen a movie with the parent child relationship that that's poignant and and meaningful. it It didn't seem like anything new, I guess. Um,
00:26:49
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know um character as far as character arcs. Um, I guess we saw the most with the, what's the wife's name? charliebuuss I think we saw the most of her as far as arcs go. Um, but you kind of saw that coming, right? She's so aloof. She doesn't care about her husband. She doesn't care about her daughter. Um, I don't want to give anything away, but even if you haven't seen the film, you've seen many movies and you know what's going to happen. She's going to come around and realize the job isn't everything. And my family is what's most important.
00:27:20
Speaker
that's there's a any kind of those elements For me, like it's it's how you see Grady like raising Blake at the beginning with that gruff kind of like solitary in the woods kind of thing and Blake
Parenting Themes and Protagonist's Struggle
00:27:36
Speaker
not wanting that and like seeing how he handles his daughter, but you still see those moments where he's trying to repress all that stuff from what he picked up from his dad as a kid and how his dad was was mannerisms you know what you listen to me you know trying to hold that back so cuz he's so bad he doesn't want to be like his father you can be scary wow you mentioned that you mentioned that has seen where she was like playing on the construction equipment in the city and my wife is in there watching
00:28:05
Speaker
and she goes why is he apologizing he is correct she was putting her life at danger and not listening yeah it was exactly ah da know So like you see that, you know, and it's like part of that idea of fighting the monster within that sense of repression of the anger and those feelings that you want to throw out there, but at the same time, not wanting to be that, you know, I think says a lot to part of that character development throughout the film and then into the transfer ah transformation into being an actual, you know, monster, as it were. And it's it's it.
00:28:42
Speaker
I think that sets kind of a tone there that you kind of understand with him trying to hold back while he transformed later on in the film. And even with Charlotte and even though their marriage seems dead and failing, even with his his mopey little sad boy act, you know, like he's he's still trying to make an effort to reconnect.
00:29:00
Speaker
you know Even though you know it takes its turn as it is. And Charlotte, you know she's she's this workaholic. She's always stuck in this and just prefers to do this because he takes such a lead role in the parenting and handling their daughter Ginger with kit gloves you know in order to try to be a better dad than his own father was. Charlotte doesn't know how to connect. She's she's kind of scared.
00:29:23
Speaker
But as the film goes on and with the changes in that sense of survival, you see Charlotte become a little more forefront and direct with her daughter and trying to make that connection like, I'm going to protect you. This is all going crazy. Even though this isn't working out and things going bad for Daddy, I'm still going to be here for you. So she still makes that sense to that that effort to make that connection to to be a good parent.
00:29:44
Speaker
You know and then you know once everything gets towards its ending having that scene where grady and blake are together looking at the valley and then charlotte ginger looking over the valley. Just that that big connect that big wraparound to it i think is is amazing.
00:29:59
Speaker
But I agree. Ginger like is a daughter. Maybe it's a shock thing. Maybe it's trauma. So maybe she doesn't understand how to respond. So that's why maybe we see that lack of the tears at the end. But knowing that she she loves her father and wanting him to have some peace through this, knowing that he's he's not going to get it any other way, man it really kind of tugs your heartstrings in a way. So the it's it's weird how that works out in the character arc.
00:30:28
Speaker
but Yeah, hu you brought this up. there's There's no way around it at this point. um We find out that the werewolf in that is initially haunting the family is spoiler alert, um his father. And so you mentioned we're trying to avoid that monster within that he grew up with.
00:30:59
Speaker
I walked away saying the message of this movie is that we can't because no matter how hard he tries to not be like his father, he ends up just like his father. oh yeah So that's one of the examples where I'm going, is that the message or is that where like they tried to shove a message in and didn't end up with the same with quite with the resolution they hoped that's one where i'm not sure i honestly the the bleakness of saying we can't escape it is kind of like a little bit of bleakness to my horror movies sometimes so i kind of like that but it's also doesn't seem like what the movie was going for
00:31:50
Speaker
It seems like the movie was saying that we can escape that and maybe that's what is the very ending. He escapes it. He doesn't pass it on. So, but i don't I don't know. I just wondered if either of you took that away from it because that's when he looks down and sees the tattoo also that foreshadowing was so on the nose.
00:32:15
Speaker
It was so on the nose in that opening scene. Oh, Lavelle tattoo. I leaned over to my wife and I said, guess what's going to come back up later? Because of course, set it up, pay it off. yeah and So that just delivered. But ah I just didn't notice if anybody else caught that or thought that that was what it was saying. Because to me, I heard that no matter what, we will become our parents.
Parental Influence: Do We Become Our Parents?
00:32:43
Speaker
it can eat by the way think about What is it that Geico ads or they are dressing like their parents, like old Trumpy people. yeah um I think there's an element of truth to that because I find myself saying things that dad said all the time growing up and it's just like, Oh my goodness. you kick yourself it's at times like wait That's stuff my dad says. Why am I saying that? Yep.
00:33:10
Speaker
yep but Well, there's definitely an element of you can't escape your demons, right? We all have our demons that we deal with on a daily basis. i guess you could I like that observation. It's more optimistic than sort of the bleakness of what we see in the film. um I would have liked to see Charlotte's demons a little more and see what she was battling with. um That would have been an interesting duality, right? if they got separate monsters within. and I mean, you already said the spoiler alert. did Were either of you surprised that it was his father? I was like, oh, it's obvious. No, no, no. After after against the papers that they finally declared his dad, dead after going missing, I'm like, uh, the beginning where he's in the basement and Blake comes out and he's on the CB radio or a ham radio where we're talking to somebody else about what you what he saw.
00:34:05
Speaker
I was like, ah ah I know where you're going with this. I knew at the beginning of that opening sequence, as soon as we take the moment in an opening sequence like that to focus on a tattoo that happens to be his last name, I was like, that there we go. This is going to be relevant. We're going to know. So it didn't really surprise me. in In fact, it was one of those moments that I thought was kind of heavy handed.
00:34:34
Speaker
Agree. Yes. All right. So scores. Score. All right. Let me double check. what i I put down, I'm surprised by this. I put down a four and it is because Julia Garner, like Erin mentioned, I did kind of enjoy her arc of kind of being aloof, not knowing how to deal with her daughter to now being her daughter's comfort in this hard time.
00:35:04
Speaker
So I thought that was interesting. I did really appreciate um something we haven't mentioned yet and I wanted to was seeing the father struggle in the Wolfman form to connect with his family. I actually thought that was kind of beautifully tragic Again, it's one of those things that not quite executed to perfection, but it brought i'm like you bought something new to the Wolfman stories that we haven't seen. We've always, he's tortured, but it's always kind of been this, when he's the Wolfman, he's an animal. When he is human, he's human. And this, we slowly see him, I'll talk about it in special effects, but
00:35:55
Speaker
Even when he was kind of couldn't speak anymore and animalistic, we see him being tender towards his daughter. And there's a moment when he's coming through that back door where he is reaching to the daughter and Julia reacts to protect her daughter. And it's one of those moments that I was like, oh, that was actually kind of heartbreaking because I felt that he was going to comfort some a loving gesture.
00:36:24
Speaker
Julia took this as a threat and attacked and now I'm like, this is the misunderstood wolfman. So this is that tragic character. So i I appreciated that. That's where I landed at on my four, even if I think some of the other elements of it, a bit heavy handed, could have been executed better. I did appreciate seeing him try as he's losing himself to maintain connection with his family. I thought that added a tragic and beautiful element that has been missing in other versions. Yeah, I just want to say one thing quickly, and I love that. I completely agree with what you're saying. And I loved the moment when you can't understand what they're speaking. Yes. And thats see then he's so far removed. That I thought was one of the best moments of this movie.
00:37:16
Speaker
Agreed. Okay. See, I'm getting chills. There's some good moments in that film. That's why we love talking.
Sound Design: Creating Atmosphere
00:37:22
Speaker
That's why we love talking. And and I'm usually not critical. So I feel like I'm being kind of hard on this film.
00:37:28
Speaker
That's good. But anyway, yeah, go ahead, John. Yeah, I said it before as well. I liked the development of everything from, you know, from Blake and his trying to repress himself, not be like his dad to that animalistic side coming out, still trying to maintain that connection, you know, and then trying to defend them, you know, even in the altered state, you know, against his own what turned out to be his own father.
00:37:51
Speaker
um And with mom, you know, finally stepping into that parental role as a protector was pretty awesome. Um, so yeah, I gave it a four as well. I thought that was a good place with it. Yeah, I would do the same. All right. I'll give you a unanimous on the force for that one. Awesome. All right. So the music and sound design, this is, this was a tough one for me. This was a tough one for me.
00:38:18
Speaker
I because the sound design of man when he starts eating his arm, the sound design on that was so good. It was disgusting. I loved it. ah The sound design in general, this is where we talked. ah This is a good moment actually, to talk about when he starts to lose the ability to understand his family.
00:38:45
Speaker
So it almost sounds like backtracking. And I don't know if that's what they did. But if you satanic panic in the early 90s, and you know, heavy metal was putting backwards lyrics on there that were satanic, if you remember all that stuff. um That's kind of what the dialogue sounded like. When we saw from his POV, we got backtracking kind of dialogue from his wife. And that's the moment that you understand We tried to give us this inside to the transformation that I appreciated of seeing it from both the family and the person who's transforming. So like he goes to talk to his wife and we hear the very first time, and we hear him, fine. And she talks back and it's gibberish. We can't comprehend it. And it sounded like the backtracking, but that's, ah I thought that was really clever. That was one of those moments that I was like,
00:39:43
Speaker
This is good stuff. This is this is good. I'm going to give credit here because that is just another element to add to the tragedy of he has to find a way to communicate knowing they can't understand each other. So that audio, I thought that was smart. His The typical bone popping, crunching, skinny, skin squelching, all of that was there. That was good. Yes. Oh, that arm scene. That was gross. But the music itself was just good. It fit the scenes. ah did' it What stood out to me was it seemed very percussion heavy, which I appreciate.
00:40:28
Speaker
It was almost, I don't want to say it was intentional, but we're getting the idea that the natives in this land knew of this curse, and it sounded tribal drumming at parts. I don't know if that was what they were going for, but I thought that was clever. It was good. It wasn't memorable though, so that's my That's my critique on the music. I thought it good. It fit the moments. Nothing took me out. The only time it kind of took me out was in that closing shot of the wife and daughter looking out. I don't know if it was my theater or not, but it was really loud. I was like, this this music swell is loud for this moment. And um that is the only time that I wasn't like, I'm not sure it hit quite that much, but
00:41:19
Speaker
I thought the music served its purpose, wasn't distracting, but I really appreciate the hearing that we saw from the Wolfman's perspective, how that spider on the wall, I forgot about that. Well, I was going to bring that up if you didn't. Yeah. That spider on the wall, but I was like, who is crashing through the ceiling? And it's just a little spider on the wall. ah I thought those elements were really clever.
00:41:46
Speaker
I thought the spider element was great too. I mean, I think with any score, if it's done really well, you don't notice it. So the fact that you're saying you noticed it in the end, then they probably should have scaled that back a little bit. Danny Elfman did the score. I think that's, yeah, Danny Elfman, very talented. Oh, you did? So going into it, I just expected it to be... Good you know i have to show with me when it comes to score like i said if i don't notice it that i know it's done well i'd like to rewatch some of the intense scenes like with the green house on top of the green house i'd like to watch that with an ear for the score to see how.
00:42:28
Speaker
clever they did it and but you know whatever they implemented there without really being aware of what you're hearing and also some of the scenes that I love the most I might be jumping ahead is um sort of the sprawling ah field in front of the house when you see them running up to the house I'd love to watch those again too with the score in mind to see to see what I think but I mean based on that I'd give it a high score I think it was really well done and everything you touched upon I completely agree with.
00:42:57
Speaker
Nice. Um, see the, for me, it's mostly the sound design in this one that really gets me, the music definitely played its part and it was great in my opinion, but just the sounds of everything, man. Like you were talking about Tim with like the squelching and the biting and everything, even that point where he's like, gets stuck in that bear trap in the barn. And, you know, spoiler, you know, having to chew his own leg off to his. Oh yeah. Just sounds that they really put into there and like those as you know, early parts in the house as they're walking through and he's getting as he's slowly transforming your hearing that not not just a spider in general, but there's some of those parts where you're hearing kind of like that deep blow heartbeat kind of thump.
00:43:43
Speaker
throughout certain parts of it, you know, that really give it a little more tension that I thought was a really great effect with how they use sound. um Yeah, just, man, it's hard to really hate on it for me, because I don't have much to say about the music. It's all about the sound design in this one for me.
00:44:02
Speaker
Well, speaking of sound design, I loved that in the opening scene, the opening sequence, when they're in that sort of view tower, and all you can see is the breath, the puffs are there. And this, you could really hear the breathing, right? So I know they accentuated that. I think that was really effective and nicely done. Oh, yeah, definitely a good touch. Yes, I agree. the So the music in this one was Benjamin Walfish, who I never heard of. Danny Elfman.
00:44:33
Speaker
did 2010. Oh, okay. I was mistaken. No, that's okay. I was surprised when you said that I had to look it up because I just watched 2010 last night. And one of the things I remembered was going Danny Elfman did the music. So but the second I was wrong. I'm sorry. no I was like Danny Elfman did both of these. That's amazing. So I have to look that up. Did he do Invisible Man? Did I get that right?
00:45:00
Speaker
Let me see. It's all good. like I'm sitting here nodding my head like, yeah, but it's like, no, I hear my notes. I even did some research. Everything you see on the internet, you can't believe it. You can't believe it all. Well, I'm going to have IMDB, so I'm hoping it's it's right. Anyway, it it doesn't matter. Yeah, I wasn't trying to issue a correction. I just, I was excited that he might've, nope, Walfish did Invisible Man as well. Cool.
00:45:25
Speaker
So I was excited. the elephant did That's what I was reading and I just had the name wrong. oh That's all right. All right. So my final score for this one.
00:45:38
Speaker
I think I, man, I have it out of three. i I, because I wasn't impressed by the music as much, but after we talk about it, the sound design does make me want to and bring it up to a four.
00:45:52
Speaker
because the sound design I did think was pretty solid across this film. So I'll take it up to a four. Nice.
Practical Effects: Transformation Praise
00:46:04
Speaker
My only complaint about that spider scene, which was awesome in the film, if he's hearing a spider's split steps that loudly. Oh my God. Imagine like someone snapping their fingers in the same room talking. His head would explode. It'd be like scanners. I thought the same thing. I thought the same thing. It seemed like a single out moment to show us something, but there was none of that in the rest of it. Jonathan noticed the heartbeat throughout some of it, but I was like, everything would be exceptionally loud. Yes. He wouldn't be able to focus or function. Right. Anyway,
00:46:38
Speaker
a little complaint. A little bit like a Clark, I'm going Clark Kent and a man of steel when he has to learn to focus on specific sounds instead of hearing everything at once. That's what that reminded me of. Yes. But yes. Oh my God. Imagine if you had ADHD. I would be losing my mind because I do. So I would be i be like, what's that? What's that? And where were you at on that score?
00:47:07
Speaker
ah and As we talked, to I'd say four. i mean i Like I said, I'd give it a high score. The sounds were top-notch. so jarvan Yeah. so i mean Like said, they they did a lot of cool stuff, I think. ah One thing I also forgot to mention that I really appreciated was that when it came to the Wolfman in particular, yeah they stepped away from that that wolf howl that you normally get characteristically, instead of it more with guttural growl, not knowing how to express or vocalize through the change. So I think that was really cool. They did that that differently than the howl. um But with the whole spider point,
00:47:47
Speaker
I think they put that in there like that at that point because he's still going through transition. Everyone is asleep. Everything is quiet. And that's when it really stands out the most because there's no other sounds really going on. Although it could be debatable with being out there in the woods of nature. Some other things you would think should be picked up a bit more, though. So I kind of get where you're coming from, Aaron, with that point. um But aside from that, I'm still kicking it at a four. All right. So again, four four is across the board for us.
00:48:17
Speaker
I love that when you said Howl, it's one of your dogs, Mark. My dog is outside my door trying to play. It's huge. It's like you planned it. Yeah. Okay, she ran away. All right, so the editing and special Keep going. doesn't Go ahead.
00:48:40
Speaker
I was just going into it. No, I was just going to joke. we We did an interview with the werewolf director and we were talking about werewolves and my dog was barking at the mailman. So moving on, editing and special effects for this one. So immediately off the bat, I love that it was practical effects. Almost. I'm pretty sure across the board, I don't remember a moment that I was CGI'd.
00:49:09
Speaker
Um, the, uh, the moment that might be was really just cool effects, not super significant was, uh, Aaron mentioned the breath in that tower. Even if that CGI doesn't bother me, that was a super cool effect. Great moment. And I watched that going back, watching in the 2010 one where the transformation was almost entirely CGI.
00:49:38
Speaker
ah there were a couple practical effects in that but a lot of that like skin looks a little bit too smooth but this one practical effects are good his arm looked gross when it was rotting and turning it looked gross he looks gross I'm just gonna he looked pretty gross when it was taken full effect so I know this is one that a lot of people have had issue with the end result of Wolfman
00:50:08
Speaker
Because nothing, nothing like, yes yeah nothing like that. And I feel like that has to be mentioned. It's a Disney film, right? I feel like that has to be mentioned because traditionally that's what we get. But as I said at the beginning, I felt like this was not a werewolf movie. This is a new story.
00:50:34
Speaker
Even though it keeps the name, this is a new iteration of it, much like Lee's Invisible Man ah was a new telling. This, again, it's a sickness that you get. You're not a werewolf. It's you become infected. So that's how I can be like, all right, I'm not going to lose my mind over it. But it also is one of those things that's mildly disappointing when you go into a werewolf movie and you don't get your werewolf. So I can understand the disappointment. ah i'm gonna i'm I'm gonna give some credit and leeway on the fact that they never said this was a werewolf in the film. It is the title that leads you to believe it's a werewolf. So that's that's where I'm gonna give give ah some leeway on the end creature design is that it is very much a human sickness in this movie.
00:51:35
Speaker
It is a human infection. So I'll give some leeway. But the practical effects were great. I think the editing was pretty strong. Aaron mentioned that scene on top of the greenhouse. I thought that was cool.
00:51:51
Speaker
i Practical. I don't know if that's exactly where I would have hit, but it was a cool looking moment in the film. It was a pivotal moment in the film. I don't really have Oh, my one complaint. My one complaint on the editing. I did not care for the werewolf vision. What? That's like one of my favorite things about it. Like the night night vision? Yeah, I did not care for it. So where I like the sound, and I do like seeing the change,
00:52:32
Speaker
Seeing how he sees things, I just didn't care for the effect they used. I felt like it the effect they used for that is going to look super dated in six years. So that that is me i'm being nitpicky on it. That's just my personal, I didn't care for that. But what I did think they do, did do think they did. I said that backwards. You do?
00:52:56
Speaker
shit
00:53:00
Speaker
What I thought was really cool was if you're watching his wife and daughter's face distort more and more over time. And I thought that was a really nice touch because at first as he's beginning his transformation, he can still kind of see them. They're a little bit fuzzy. But then by the end, they're almost unrecognizable as the people we see at the beginning.
00:53:30
Speaker
So I thought that was a really cool, again, part of that tragedy of he is slipping away from them, but they're also slipping away from him.
Visual Storytelling and Relationship Impact
00:53:39
Speaker
He kind of knows like that's my wife, but it doesn't look like her. So there's that element added to it that I thought that was another moment of showing that transformation that was super cool.
00:53:54
Speaker
Even if I didn't like the glowy little trees or whatever, but seeing our faces distort over time, I thought was a really nice and tragic touch.
00:54:08
Speaker
Do you want me to go next? Yeah, I've agreed. The technique of that was fantastic. I actually really liked the effects. You mentioned the practical effects. Some of the best effects, I think,
00:54:21
Speaker
as a little bit of CGI where you don't notice it, but then mostly practical. And I think there are probably elements of that, especially when we rewatch, we might see it a little bit more through. um But I like that they changed it up. It wasn't your traditional werewolf. They presented something new and and perhaps that's why.
00:54:41
Speaker
people are, ah you know, they either loved it or hated it. I think because it's so different kind of like um Halloween ends. They tried something new and either worked for you or it didn't work for you.
00:54:55
Speaker
So I would say I love the effects. I don't want to jump ahead to your future categories. They nailed it with the effects. And in fact, that's one of the things I would like to revisit when I do rewatch it again. And if you're unhappy with the effects and you want werewolves, like I said, watch Stephen C. Miller's werewolves, which was a lot of fun here. I don't know if you guys have seen it, but the practical werewolf effects in that are unreal.
00:55:20
Speaker
um Yeah, I don't really, I'm not really usually drawn to werewolves in storytelling. it's It's one of those vampires, werewolves, those classic gothic horror things. I guess for some reason I love them, but I'm not drawn to their movies that much. But then this year we have two exceptions with Nosferatu being one of my favorite versions of vampire. So I have to go see that one. And then v1l doing a wolfman movie is what drew me to this one which i might normally have skipped over so however i still after watching this one i still have to say uh my favorite is the american werewolf in london that is still
00:56:09
Speaker
Of course that's never my favorite movie uh comedy love story rom-com or yes, and yeah it checks every box. It's so good will my while i be yeah We finished this one and my wife goes I think I liked american werewolf in london better and I was like, yeah me too But it's a very different movie than this one. So yeah. All right. Yeah uh, I got erin score was Did you say four? Oh, I didn't say a score. Oh, man. I'd even go five. I love the effects.
00:56:42
Speaker
um see For me, man, like what you normally see with werewolf transformations and like you only get the that third-person perspective of what's going on with the werewolf in most films and see what they did with the special effects while he you see that that change in his perception of the world around him as the infection further sets in and he changes, I thought was one of the most fantastic things.
00:57:07
Speaker
You know, getting that that sense of that night vision that comes along with certain animals, predatory in the wild, you know, and, you know, that the way he just sees everything so differently was super, super cool to me. That's like one of the things I appreciate most about this film, aside from how gory some of the effects were and everything.
00:57:28
Speaker
that mean That really set it up for me, man. It was weird with how the faces changed over time as he gets deeper into the infection, but I just think it was it was intentional that it was supposed to make it seem like that because he's losing base of himself.
00:57:44
Speaker
losing that sense of touch and connection with the reality and what's what their sense of perspective is. And then how they transition from him to Charlotte, what she sees from him and what he sees from her, I think played really well. So, I mean, for me, I was i was kicking in at five on this for the special effects. I don't really have much to say on the editing because I was just so stuck in the story and the tension of it all. We are in agreement. All five of us are or all five of us, all three of us are five, but I can't talk today. Man, I thought doing it earlier in the day would be better, but we are five from special effects. Speaking of CGI, I just wanted to bring up something funny. An American werewolf in Paris, if you want to see a really bad werewolf movie with some bad CGI. That one was 1998, wasn't it?
00:58:33
Speaker
I think so when CGI was not very good. yeah I mean, it's not as bad as um The Lawn Mower Man. which is but This one's pretty bad. But you see, I still bought a copy. Oh, yes. Some of them are so bad, you have to have a copy just for fun.
00:58:49
Speaker
um
Anticipation for Robert Eggers' Werewolf Film
00:58:50
Speaker
Yes. And before I forget, um, the Wolf man, um, nope, nevermind. I was thinking of Nosferatu anyway. Well, I'll just say now, if you guys collect physical media, the Nosferatu Steelbook is coming out February 18th. I was looking at pre-ordering it today. And I think it's sold out on some places, but Walmart still has it. if you want to Target was sold out when I looked, Walmart was still available for 40 bucks.
00:59:14
Speaker
i I preordered it from Walmart. Yep. I might have to do that. My wife might kill me. I'm already over budget this month. um But she liked that movie. Anyway, that was good. Also, let's mention... All candlelight. Isn't that fantastic? like The scenes, they filmed it all candlelight lighting. and I can't wait. You can see it rather than some movies filmed with digital lighting. It's incredible.
00:59:38
Speaker
um God, that's ah a great transition to bring up something that I wanted to mention was we get Nosferatu in December. And then two weeks later, we get Wolfman. And then two weeks after that, we hear that Robert Eggers next film is going to be a werewolf movie set in 15th century England, maybe 16th. So that's
01:00:10
Speaker
I'm thrilled. so I'm super excited about that. See what that is. um One of the things I noticed between all three of these Wolfman films, and I know I have faith that Eggers will do it correctly because he did it with Nosferatu. The original Lon Chaney one. Limited Wolfman on camera. Very like keeping the monster off until pivotal moments.
01:00:37
Speaker
that was launch anyone did that the 2010 wolfman had buff wolfman slashing everything on screen majority of the film and it kind of takes away honestly the 2010 one was it is a great unintentional comedy is the way i walked away from it it's the wolfman's throwing people they're flipping through the air hitting things it's hilarious And it doesn't mean to be. It looks really good. It just doesn't stick in the landing. oh This one? I don't remember it that well. You're making me think of Wolfman in Monster Squad. I don't remember. I was going to say, any time someone mentions a werewolf, my brain still always goes to Monster Squad, right? Where they kick the dude in the nuts and like, Wolfman's got nards. I'm just like. yeah never gets old So the 2010 one with Benicio is where, and so I don't know if that's where they took this, but he inherited the wolf man, the werewolf from his father. So it's kind of part of that version. And that seeped into this one a little bit. I don't know if that was the intention, but it is.
01:01:53
Speaker
When he, pretty cool transformation, they wheel him in in like those old medical rooms where people are sitting around and you watch. They wheel him in in the chair and the doctor's like, I'm going to show you that it's all in your mind. And then he physically transforms and just massacres this room of people. and right seeing phone It's a great scene, but I'm like, man, this movie is unintentionally funny. It is unintentionally hilarious. Like I told you what was going to happen. and But my point was now I need to rewatch. Yeah, i I recommend rewatching it, especially after seeing this one, because it did make me appreciate this one more. um One of the faults of that movie is too much Wolfman on screen, too much werewolf. It kind of takes away that miss mysterious element.
01:02:42
Speaker
So Lon Chaney did that. I think that's why that movie had such an impact was the special effects for the time period and the minimal use of the werewolf on screen. Then 2010 gave us an abundance of everything we didn't need. And then this one balances that edge. We don't really get full Wolfman until towards the end. It walks that line.
01:03:10
Speaker
And so I appreciate that restraint. Absolutely. I appreciate that restraint on this one. So that was just an observation after watching all three of them, that saying, I think, Eggers will be excellent at giving us the appropriate amount of Werewolf on screen to maintain scare factor.
Werewolf Presence: Balancing Screen Time
01:03:30
Speaker
Once you see a Werewolf rip his sleeves off and knock a man's head off, 2010 version, it happens.
01:03:36
Speaker
ah just knock a man's head straight off his body, you lose the scare and it's starting to become comical. So I know Eggers will avoid that. Alright, enough on that side trip. Yeah, I mean, you're touching on the the whole premise that what you don't see is scariest, like the Blair Witch Project. The reason and why it's so damn scary is because you never see the witch. And then the Blair Witch, the third one, I think, yes, kind of messed it up a little bit, because then by the end, it's like an alien or something. Oh, I see. It had me right up until the final. That movie freaked me out, though. That was ah
01:04:14
Speaker
Which one the first or the blair the third one? I actually really, really, I'm one of the ones who I really, really liked the third one, but I do agree with what you say. I'm still just glad that we saw that for like half a second.
01:04:27
Speaker
I've never seen any of them. and never are ah I never I never cared. The premise didn't really interest me. I've seen bits and pieces, but I was like, eh, I think I've watched something better. You want to see a great bad movie, watch the second Blair Witch. No, don't even. Don't even. I don't know. I'm not sure. I have yet. I saw it in the theater and it came out and I don't think I've watched it since.
01:04:51
Speaker
it's it's it's a It's pretty abysmal. ah It's probably one of the worst sequels. I watch it for a charm. Well, they rushed it, right? So they were trying to capitalize on the first one. So they filmed that, they wrote and filmed that movie in like yeah a second and put it out as soon as that's fast as we could. And it's not even found footage. It's like a quarter found footage. It mixes real life and then it turns out to be like some mad scientist. um it's It's bizarre.
01:05:20
Speaker
And the old switcheroo at the end. All right, jumping into the script.
Script Critique: Lack of Subtlety
01:05:27
Speaker
So the script for Lee Wan-El's Wolfman is, all right, I've been generous. Do I say that this is where I critique it? So in the story, I think it had a lot of good ideas. I don't think the script successfully delivered.
01:05:47
Speaker
So this is one that I would be curious if there is an extended cut somewhere if we get that down the road. um In my mind right now I can't imagine what could be added so I don't know and I hope it's more than While I'm excited about four more minutes in Nosferatu, I'm also like, man, give me another half an hour. I want a Peter Jackson extended cut. Give me give me yes jack yeah give me a full like additional movie.
01:06:22
Speaker
ah this is The script didn't do much for me. I thought the script was probably the single most heavy handed element of this film.
01:06:34
Speaker
the I even, I hate to do this. I hate being so critical, but this this was the moment that I had to come down on it. That's what we're here for. Yup. Even the, it didn't work for me. Even when they're like, touch my head. ah What am I thinking? I was like, this is corny. This is so cheesy. You can't think of something better.
01:06:57
Speaker
it once in yeah a little bit And then often they did it yes it was sweet and but we like Okay, we get it she's not really a mind reader. Yeah, but then at the end when they pull that like oh she might be a mind reader i was like what i it didn't hit for yeah That was bad I did not care for it and it's okay mommy blew his brains out And then so Yeah, that precisely and using that kind of as your main connection to establish their relationship. I can pick up on it from the context clues and all the rest of the film that they're supposed to have a very close relationship. Using that gesture as frequently and often as they did was just kind of eye rolling. The and the other part we mentioned
01:07:57
Speaker
It had to do with Julia Garnes character. I can't remember it. Was Charlotte being a workaholic or like being defensive and like not wanting to be involved? What's going on? No, it wasn't her. I actually thought she was fine. I thought they did her character right. But when we went back, it was the dad.
01:08:16
Speaker
Because we already mentioned like he apologizes to her daughter after she puts herself in a dangerous situation And he reacts the way I would assume a father would when your child is playing in traffic um That's those were a couple of moments that I was like He was trying so hard in that moment to erase his own father and the way his father raised him without kind of acknowledging that his father was also acting out of preserving his own child. His father knew the threat of the wolf man was out there. feed And he was driven to protect his child. And yes, where I can watch that beginning and say the father is probably a little heavy handed and abrupt with it and rough. The other, the flip side of that is not like justifying
01:09:14
Speaker
Your child putting themselves in danger, which is what I felt like We did later so and I know that could probably be nitpicked by other people but when he is She's playing in traffic on traffic cones and he is Get down. I told you not to do that. I'm sorry. Uh, oh Now it came to me. All right, this is the part that I strongly disagree with and this is personal When he is talking to his daughter and saying, I could never live with myself if this scarred you, if this traumatized you. I'm like, that bothered me. The way I interpreted what he was saying is not I need to teach you how to handle the hard things that come up in life the proper way.
Parenting Portrayal: Shielding Children
01:10:11
Speaker
I took it as him saying, I need to shield you from any potential disagreement, harm, threat, whatever. I need to shield you from it. I can't let you deal with that instead of teaching her how to process that and deal with it. So that is, I cannot remember exactly what he said, but that was a moment where I was like, man, I taught junior high for three years. Well, I taught junior high for a year and elementary for two years.
01:10:42
Speaker
And um well congratulations the biggest thing I can see is that so many kids aren't taught how to handle adverse situations. And so what I heard in that moment is him saying she shouldn't have to handle them. He should protect her from them. And that's one where I'm just going, no, you should be teaching her how to process this dangerous or threatening or scary moment, teach her how to process it and grow up and handle it and move on and how to deal with that. Because what what's going on is not, you know, there are some things that um we're not going to get into, but then there are some things that you can process and move on from. So I just thought the way he presented that really rubbed me wrong. And maybe I'm going too deep on that one. But that was a moment that I was like, I don't agree.
01:11:39
Speaker
I think this should be a scary moment and you should be talking to your daughter about how scary this is and how you're going to try to figure out how to get through it. sorry Okay. That's like, do you understand why I yelled at you? Do you understand why this is dangerous and why I'm upset with you? Like, yes. but like a dream i I reacted out of emotion and I was wrong for that, but I did it because, you know, that's,
01:12:08
Speaker
that's what I was missing from that connection and that relationship and that part. So that's that's why I said this the script is where I was coming down on this because I liked a lot of it but the script we've used this a lot was heavy-handed.
01:12:28
Speaker
Do you want me to go next? Yep, that's my soapbox. I can sit there. Oh, there you go. No. yeah I mean, excellent observation observations. Corbett Tuck, I hope I got her name right, um wrote the screenplay, and and she's married to Wannell, although maybe they're siblings, my research, now that you guys are up to date. holding it. I don't even know. But I think she is married to Leewa now. So I can only assume that they sat down and wrote like a scene breakdown together and talked about all the beats. And and here's the first act, second act, third act. This is how we should present it. um But then the writing piece of it and how it translated to the film, it almost seemed like the screenplay itself perhaps could have gone through a few more iterations, um like it was rushed.
01:13:09
Speaker
um And there were a few moments where some of the lines, like even the one you're talking about, the lines, it's like I found myself rolling my eyes a little bit and you're like, oh, maybe that looked good on the page, but just isn't working with the actor delivering it, even with these actors who are very, very talented.
01:13:27
Speaker
And I mean, I don't know. On the other hand, she wrote Insidious. And Insidious is well written. It's a very well crafted film. Scary. All the T, what is it? All the I's are dotted and T's are crossed. um and Maybe it just comes down to not even some of the best writers or not everything they write is going to be fantastic. And that that could be it as well.
01:13:50
Speaker
But I mean, I don't know. I'd say a solid B plus A minus if I were grading her screenplay. And in fairness, I haven't read it. So I don't know how it reads on the paper. yeah I can only assume. I don't know. I can just make assumptions. And that's my take. a Screenwriting, screenplay wise, maybe a three or four. um Like I said, it could have been workshopped or a few more drafts maybe.
01:14:15
Speaker
Okay, right on. i don't know So I feel like, I feel like I overscored it a bit on script, because now that I think about it, as we talk about it, um some parts of it just do kind of fall flat. You know, I mean, the dialogue midway through the film, when all the action's going on, you don't, you can't really pay too much attention to that because it's all action and reaction mostly for what's going on. But like that early part where she comes home from work, he gets the papers and the mail,
01:14:44
Speaker
And he keeps telling her to take the call in the other room and she's just like, whatever, you know, this seemed like a really stupid part to put in there. I feel like I was kind of useless in that whole part of him being all like, ah how was you you know, I was like, dude, whatever, this is lame.
01:14:59
Speaker
Just crap. And like when they're sitting on the steps, when he comes to see her at work, you know, and him trying to like plead with her in like a really crap way of like, you know, let's do this. Let's come out. This could be good for you. You can work on your book. And she's like, well, I got stuff going on. You know, I'm trying to I got things. I got a job, you know, like whatever. You're doing nothing, basically, you know, when you find out when they're driving out to the woods in their moving truck. I don't know. Some of it was kind of weak. But even that part, though, where they they meet the guy he knew from childhood was his name was Derek.
01:15:29
Speaker
or something that they saw up in the the hunting stand. In the deer blinds, yeah. yeah you like that part of like Some of that conversation in the moving truck, when he hops in, um talking about, you you know, how'd you get so lucky, blah, blah, i have all this, and he's like, yeah. They made him out to be a predator.
01:15:46
Speaker
Yeah, it was a little creepy. Oh my gosh, yeah. The woods a little too long. Like, what the hell? He's paranoid like other people out in the woods, out in the mountains for a long time, I don't know. But aside from that, though, there's not much I can really say on the script. I definitely need to change my score on that one. I'm going to take that one down to a three. OK, so scores. I was at a two on the script.
Acting Performances: Strengths and Weaknesses
01:16:11
Speaker
Jonathan, you're a three. Yeah. And Aaron.
01:16:15
Speaker
You're three. I mean, I hate to be critical, but yeah, I know. We're not selling this film at all. I think people are watching. like Well, tossing this out. Thankfully, i think we've been I think we've been pretty honest. So, but I have to pick a moment to come down on it. And this was the moment, but we can turn up and get positive and talk about the acting.
01:16:42
Speaker
So top notch. Yeah, I thought the acting was very good. I said, I had a little bit. I didn't quite believe the man. I'm so bad with names. um Chris, which one? christ Christopher Abbott, his I just keep going back to Chris for Abbott. Yeah, yeah like like Charlotte and Ginger, your main three. Yeah, I didn't believe him in the beginning of the film.
01:17:07
Speaker
ah I wasn't buying it and I think that's I wasn't buying it. But then once the transformation started, I thought he was excellent. I was actually all on board there. I thought Julia Garner delivered in her performance. And I think it comes down to whether you like her character or not that kind of aloof and can't be bothered at the beginning.
01:17:30
Speaker
But I saw some heartbreaking transformation delivered by her. I thought the daughter was quite good. And that's really the cast of this film is those three. So I thought they did a pretty great job across the board. Yeah, I think so too. Julia Garner is very talented. Last Exorcism 2, we are what we are.
01:17:55
Speaker
amazing films. ah Christopher Abbott, it's really cool to see how far he's come back from, I mean, I think we first saw him in Girls. At least that's that TV show. That's the first time I remember seeing him. And then, um, I don't know, man, what's that? What's the sci-fi? He was in a really cool sci-fi movie. Oh my God. I'm trying to complete blank. I'll find out. and know It'll come to me. Um, there was a sci-fi movie and he was in a couple of years ago that, um,
01:18:24
Speaker
I absolutely love and I can't think of the title. Is that horrible? It was right on the tip of my tongue too. If you're looking it up on IMDB. Oh, and then Possessor and It Comes at Night? Possessor, yes. Oh, It Comes at Night's fantastic too. Possessor was really great. Wasn't that Cronberg's doll?
01:18:45
Speaker
Brandon. i Not Cronenberg. His son did it. Yes. Brandon Cronenberg. Fantastic. um I love that one. um It comes at night as an excellent too. ah Anyway, my point is top notch actors, very talented, ah the no surprise there. And it's really cool to see that Christopher Abbott has come um so far. Yeah.
01:19:06
Speaker
I'll leave it at that. The acting, yeah. Like I said, aside from kind of like the you know Blake's wussy moments towards the beginning of the film, that that kind of irritated me a bit. But definitely his performance as he goes through the transformation speaks a lot to his ability. um And the way Charlotte and ah Ginger reacts to that whole situation while still trying to maintain some sense of sanity through all of it and to still try and survive without totally breaking down and getting toward a shit. I think they did a great job. um It's just towards that end when, you know, it finally has to come to it where she's just like,
01:19:50
Speaker
This is what I got to do. Boom, pow, to now. And then seeing them standing mother, daughter in the valley at the end, you know, and how that connects to the feelings of the beginning with Blake and his dad, Grady to start, you know, and he was well connected in like the kind of feelings you get from that moment in the beginning with those two. And then with the other two at the end, I don't know. I feel like I'm describing this really stupidly. I'm not loving.
01:20:21
Speaker
Um, but overall the acting, I would say it was sits at a four for me. Yep. Four for me. it's important it's Okay. I have a question. Maybe this goes back to story. So I know you always have to have conflict, right? And so they set it up. There is conflict between husband and wife. I wonder how the movie would play, have played out if there wasn't conflict. What if they were a happy married couple and they're like, Oh, we're going to go.
01:20:48
Speaker
Look, my way they finally declared my father dead. Let's go sell the house. I wonder how that would have played out in that way if they had switched it up. if she'd been a phone I kind of think so. that's that's like My initial reaction when you say that is I would have felt the tragedy of the story far more if it was a happy relationship.
01:21:14
Speaker
Yes. I mean, it's I haven't thought about it until just now, but I think you're right. Yeah, it's kind of I know people hate on this film, but the strangers pray at night is kind of a happy family going out. They've got family issues, but they're not on the verge of divorce and they're torn apart. Yes. And it I love that film. I know other people don't. I love prayer night. I love I love it too. Yeah. Okay. But it makes like that moment with the dad in the car accident so much more tragic. Or the brother in the pool. You feel everything far more knowing that it's a close family unit.
Character Conflict: Storytelling Impact
01:22:04
Speaker
So definitely that would have changed the movie.
01:22:08
Speaker
and Think think of like speak no evil and they just did the remake which is okay and they sugarcoated it a little bit But the original the porn film um ah What happens to that family? It's like my god. That was one of the four That was one of the most recent movies. So we watched the speak no evil the only reason to watch that one is the remake is to watch McAvoy be fantastic and yes I hated the ending of the remake. It made me mad because the ending of the original was one of those that like, I had to stay up and watch sitcoms for a while because it was... How disturbing. Uh-huh. It was messed up. So that was, the American version sanitized that one to
01:22:57
Speaker
Oh, they sugarcoated it completely. And in fact, when the remake trailer started to come on, the first film was so disturbing that I couldn't watch the trailer. Like if I was in the theater, I'm like, I'm going to go to the bathroom. I can't even watch the trailer. And then of course they flipped it and it's kind of a home invasion with a happy ending. Yeah. so photograph thing Wow. You should see, if you want to be disturbed, the what?
01:23:25
Speaker
What country is that movie from? Is it Norwegian? I have no idea. skin I don't know. Let me look at it. Yeah, it's a Scandinavian film. But speak no evil. Don't watch the American version until you've seen the original one. Okay. Because it's the original one. Speak no evil too. Oh, yeah. 2022. Makavoy in the remake is fantastic. He's excellent. But the ending is just garbage.
01:23:53
Speaker
Oh, that's uh denmark netherlands. so Okay. Okay danish film I'll stay with you forever for it. It's one of those. It's one of those films. It'll stay with you forever. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's My wife when she watches a horror movie her goal is to be as disturbed as possible. That's what she wants because she doesn't really enjoy a lot of the 80s films because the 80s films I would say horror should fall into two categories disturbing and visceral or wildly entertaining and fun and if you're not succeeding at those one of those two things you're kind of just wasting my time um I love the fun ones how much
01:24:39
Speaker
How about the substance?
Upcoming Discussions and Ivy Tholen's Film
01:24:40
Speaker
Have you watched that yet? Not yet. I want to though. The trailer. That's going to be an intense film. Like holy. That is one of my all time good. Like that's my favorite film of last year. Actually that is going to be, I believe our next episode. I would have to look at the schedule, but that is on our list for phone. We are talking that one with Ivy Tholen for the author. So she'll be on for that one. Oh wow. Cool.
01:25:06
Speaker
But she's one of our good friends. She's been on a couple episodes. She's great. But that movie, that one is wildly entertaining. And if you just sit back and think about it, I have so much to say about that film. I can't wait.
01:25:23
Speaker
but yeah my wife workss in the shrimp Shrimp cocktail. Yes. My wife loves to be disturbed in a horror movie. And Speak No Evil is one that she doesn't want to watch again, because it was so Disturbing. Wow. And it's not gory at all. It's disturbing on what happens to these people. It's more emotional
Direction and Tension-Building by Lee Wan-El
01:25:44
Speaker
impact. It's not like it's not like gore porn. No, I'm like August underground. It's nothing like. All right. So we've got a couple more categories to go. We'll try to zone in the direction. Sorry. No, you're good. I love the tangents. Three more categories. We are on the direction of this film. So the direction of this film.
01:26:06
Speaker
is why I went to see this film. Lee Wan-El and his fantastic Invisible Man. So watching this, I thought the slow moments with the family were pretty basic. A lot of close-up face shots. Nothing stood out to me there. But what Lee Wan-El excels at is building tension.
01:26:34
Speaker
his is tense moments and I don't want to say scary moments but but yeah he is so good at I mean I think the first really big one big moment was the truck crashing and that was executed fantastically that was a great moment in the film um so it was
01:27:03
Speaker
Even the transformation, I loved just little things that he does, like turning the camera on the side, kind of falling with the character. Just the way he builds tension, he excels at that. He is so good at that. ah I don't know how many people would think about like, this is the other man in the cell in Saw. So we had Carrie Elwes and we had Lee Wan-El in that room.
01:27:32
Speaker
And he and James Wan worked very closely. You mentioned Insidious. They worked very closely on a lot of projects. And I'm kind of excited to see Lee get out and do more with The Invisible Man. He had an upgrade and this. I wanted to make more films because I think he's a very skilled filmmaker. He just hasn't made a lot of them.
01:27:55
Speaker
So that's one where I'm not sure we talked a bit about studio interference on this film. I'm not sure how much of it was there, but there is a big difference to me between the slow moments in this film and the slow moments in The Invisible Man.
Comparison with 'The Invisible Man': Studio Interference
01:28:12
Speaker
And the slow moments in Invisible Man are still captivating. You're still glued to the screen.
01:28:19
Speaker
The slow moments in this one didn't have that same effect. And part of me wondered how much of that has to do with reshoots? How much of that has to do with the rewrites? Are there things that were changed later? And so it's like, you know what, let's just get this filmed. I don't know, but I do feel there's a difference in those slow moments. But the key scenes we've mentioned being on top of being on top of that greenhouse excellent scene. Great build of tension from going to that truck onto the greenhouse. Excellent there. The slow transformation. Excellent. He really excels at that tension building stuff. And that stood out to me in this film. And just that foggy mountain setting. Love it. Love it. I'm sorry. Just the small
01:29:14
Speaker
Small thing that I noticed is the opening scene when we're seeing this farm and he at first you it's just Shots standalone shots, but then you know, it's like that shot of the window is actually bars on the window of a farm and And you start to notice all these are actually protections against the werewolf that we know is out there. But at first, they just look like simple shots. I was like, those are nice little touches to it. So that's my thought on direction. I think he nails the tense moments, the softer moments. Yeah,
01:29:52
Speaker
yeah I mean, I don't know. if I have a whole lot to say. He's a very talented director. I'd love to see more from him. We don't really know. what he had to work with and what he ultimately created as the final product. But true talent, um cinematography was fantastic. and I think we should have looked up who the cinematographer was. it it just It looked amazing.
01:30:16
Speaker
um pacing was a little weird. So you're talking about the slow moments. I even dozed off a few times in the theater. If you want to edit that out, you can. The slow moments, I don't know. But direction wise, that's tough, man. Three or four, I'd say. I hate to give it three because it's of who it is. If it was an unknown director, maybe first time movie, four. Probably would have been better.
01:30:47
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. Three or four, I'd say. Cinematography was Stefan Dusiello, who he also did the Invisible Man in an upgrade. So they've worked together on that. we and i At one point I interviewed a director and they said,
01:31:06
Speaker
If you want to make a fantastic movie, get one of the best cinematographers out there, and they will transform your vision into something that you wouldn't even have imagined yourself. Something like that. And that kind of resonated with you. I can believe it. So I've always been curious.
Cinematography's Influence vs. Director's Vision
01:31:20
Speaker
um
01:31:23
Speaker
I feel like cinematography is, I don't want to say a new category, but I feel like it's a growing area of focus for people watching movies.
01:31:34
Speaker
because I growing up, you know, I'm always under the impression that the director, it's his vision on the screen, he's laying out the shots, he is laying out the way he wants it to go. But lately, I hear a lot more talk about like, the cinematographer is doing that. And so I wonder if there's an evolution, I haven't talked to enough people behind the scenes, an evolution of Who's calling the shots on films? Because one of the things like Hitchcock is known for is shots, the way he shoots his films, his visual style, his visual language. But he probably had a cinematographer too. you know he i yeah Yeah, I can't exactly tell you who, but how much of that is the director sitting there being like, I want this shot, you make it happen. And how much of is the cinematographer going, I've got a vision.
01:32:28
Speaker
For that it's gotta be a collaborative yeah effort i would think in the cinematographer has that. There is for how will this look best on screen and then the director sort of it has the overall vision so they have to work with the cinematographer kind of like um the movie smile the first one i know it gets a lot of hate you love it or hate it but the cinematography and that is unbelievable yes.
01:32:52
Speaker
It just sucks you in and the way the camera kind of spins around in the opening scene where it goes like in your eye. And then the title comes up. Beautiful. It's beautiful to watch. I love the first smile. that That's what I didn't love the second one as much. I still appreciate the film. It's a great film, but yeah. them both And I keep bringing up other movies. The Wolfman. So that's my take on the director.
01:33:16
Speaker
okay I love the conversation and direction is jonathan's least favorite category so yeah you if you watch your other episodes this is one of the things where i'm just like. ah What is this one ah ah man i like how in some of those scenes where.
01:33:34
Speaker
With Blake, at the start of his transformation, out like he kind of like bottoms out and everything kind of blacks out around him. You know, the tone, everything just kind of goes to dark. And then coming back out of it, you know, he's coming back to realization and starts with like, what's happening to me? ah But.
01:33:50
Speaker
One of the biggest parts for direction, I think, in this one ah that really got me was the the part with the greenhouse where they escaped from the truck and they're they're on top. and You can never really see the wolfman that's coming after them. You kind of see the shadows and everything inside while they're on top. and like Is he going to get them, the jumping and trying to snatch at, and then seeing from the inside of the greenhouse and seeing who's on top from that creature's perspective at trying to get at them, I thought they they had great play on those shots and how they did that. That was one of the standout sequences in the film. I think that's yeah the lighting, everything really came together in that moment.
01:34:34
Speaker
and And thankfully, they brought bought the extra sturdy plastic. yes Yeah, super old worn out stuff that you would expect. And we did the whole. Yes. Dad's dad has been missing for years, but the plastic isn't tip top. and How does it survive the season so well yeah okay good samaritan's out there re all of the lights still work ah just just generator still work once they kicked it on like wow it's been sitting there how long. but yeah will but
01:35:10
Speaker
And the truck just needed jumps. The tires lost no air in the 10-ish years that he was missing. Oh, yeah, yeah. There's like three inches of grime on a windshield, but everything else is fine. But everything else is fine. No need for a windshield. But aside from that, though. It's like a shotgun in movies, right, where they never have to reload and just keep shooting. It's like, yeah wow, it's like a match. Where'd all that demo come from? That's believable. Sorry I interrupted, Jonathan. No, you're good.
01:35:38
Speaker
But overall, i I gave it four. I liked just the way they they shot the scenes and everything. So yeah, I'm i'm feeling pretty comfortable at four. I was at four as well. Yeah, me too. Well, three or four, but it's going four. Okay. All right. So the it factor, this is one, the cultural significance of this
Cultural Significance and Cinematic Universe Ties
01:36:00
Speaker
film. We kind of touched on it at the beginning. The it factor for this is just,
01:36:06
Speaker
wrapped up in a whole bunch of studio Nonsense between trying to start that dark universe that didn't take off this originally meant to be part of that Ryan Gosling attached different director attached then you assume an entirely different story brought in the invisible man was supposed to be part of that too, but then it's almost like they just let Lee do what Lee wanted to do for that and It worked And then they're like, Hey, Lee want to do the, want to do Wolfman too? And he's like, uh, I guess, and he comes in here and does that. So I don't know how much of this is, it was rewrites. It was reshoots. This movie was delayed. How much of that affected the outcome? I don't know. We won't know unless it's in the, you know, supplemental material on the Blu-ray. I don't know.
01:37:02
Speaker
But I do think that has impacted how it's been received. So we've touched on a couple things. I think the cultural significance of this film is that it has been pretty divisive. Not many people that I knew even knew it was coming out. And those who did have had very mixed reviews on what they saw. So what we've alluded to as we've gone, I think a couple things lead to the disappointment. No real werewolf in the film. So that definitely, if you're going to a movie called Wolfman, you're kind of expecting a werewolf. So I see where people are disappointed there. um Because of that, there's also no real werewolf lore. So the werewolf fiends out there.
01:37:56
Speaker
are disappointed with that. And the people who are going for something that was as finessed and refined as Invisible Man, we don't really get that in this either. So I think that there's a lot that kind of leads to their disappointment.
Legacy of Wolfman: Recapturing Original Magic
01:38:14
Speaker
But I have to say, after watching just the three movies that are titled Wolfman and not counting all the movies that have werewolves in the title,
01:38:24
Speaker
ah This is up there with the original for me on how much i I enjoyed it overall. So, and this is a surprise. This is, I said, watching the other two change my opinion of this movie quite a bit.
01:38:42
Speaker
um Because the 2010, I mentioned earlier, that was also poorly received. The 2010 one was a box office failure. They lost money on it. It grossed under what they spent. i It was up for awards as worst movie of the years. A couple of people called it the worst movie ever made, you know, a couple of reviewers. So If we look at the history of Wolfman, outside of Lon Chaney Jr's, none of them have been tremendously like, this is the Wolfman movie. you know None of them have been resounding successes. They should leave it alone then. that's That is kind of what I'm getting at is that I am wondering if the magic that was Lon Chaney Jr's Wolfman is a product of the time period that cannot be recaptured today.
01:39:39
Speaker
Like the Exorcist, leave it alone. yeah the magic The magic of that werewolf transformation in 1941 does not wow a crowd in 2025.
01:39:52
Speaker
yeah It's not the same. So that you know that definitely affects this it factor for this film. And I think it's actually a great conversation. it's I think it's super interesting to talk about how the 1941 movie it's also a great story it is a great story but as we've talked about here I think this one has elements of that great story just not executed quite as deftly so the cultural significance of this film time will tell this is one that I actually I actually see a fan base growing for this in rewatches because I think it's a jarring first watch when you're expecting a werewolf film
01:40:37
Speaker
And I think if you go back and watch it again, with knowing it's not a werewolf film, it is a almost like an infectious disease film, a trapped room body horror. I didn't think it was that great on the body horror element, but if you watch it from a different perspective, I think this film is going to grow on people. But because of its initial wishy-washy, that definitely affected how I viewed its cultural impact right now. I also think coming so closely on the heels of what many consider, what I would consider one of the greatest gothic horror films of all time, definitely you go from if the last movie you saw before this one was Nosferatu, you're going to walk out with a very different take on what you thought of this film.
01:41:31
Speaker
gosh, the last movie I saw before this one was Peter Pan's Neverland Nightmare in the theater. Oh my god, if you haven't seen it, go out and check it out. If you're a fan of the Poonaverse films. I haven't seen those yet either i want to they seem like they're so good. um Anyway, it factor I would give it a low score because I don't know if there really isn't a factor here. It's kind of forgettable. I am going to rewatch it and I'll probably buy a copy um and maybe it'll win me over more of a second time through. I don't know how well it did with test audiences, but I can only um assume that it didn't do that well. And that's why it got that sort of cursed January release date. Typically that's when studios put out films that they they don't think are going to do well that January release time. And yeah, I'd probably give it a two i cultural relevance.
01:42:23
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah. I, I was right there with you on cultural relevance. I'm too, it's pretty low for me. See, that's why I i was thinking about, I was like, man, ah it's hard to score this one because it is such a different take on the classic Wolfman kind of story. So it's, it's hard to say that it's really going to have any kind of like real impact on the film industry when it comes to werewolf films. Um,
01:42:50
Speaker
I just it just doesn't seem like it really jumps into that category as hard as like the other films that we see. And what you normally get when there's when there's some sort of werewolf action. So I don't it was it's it's such a soft take, I guess. So a lot of people are gonna be like, well, yeah, this is this is not what we were expecting action wise, you know, in some regards, and from the standard so Maybe I overscored it, but I just went mid ground and went three on it. You're close enough. You're close enough. People may think it's an interesting take, and maybe that will play on the industry when it comes to making future werewolf films, but I don't really know it will have much of any, really. Yeah.
01:43:36
Speaker
so Our final category, we can kind of wrap up your final thoughts on it during this one, then I'll go through our final scores and tell us what our average is. But our final category, the only category that scored out of 10, so your traditional, more traditional, is just how entertained were you by the film?
Entertainment Value: Pacing and Rewatchability
01:43:59
Speaker
Everything aside.
01:44:01
Speaker
everything aside not critiquing it on a deeper level just did it maintain entertainment for you how entertained were you i say a 10 means you would rewatch it immediately so a couple what was i'm trying to think of the last 10 that i had the substance substance uh i'm not going to spoil my score But that's that's where we are. I can go first. I'll kick us off. I actually. We mentioned the movie has trouble with pacing, so that affects my score. My score is a seven though. I thought the tense moments were quite good. I thought.
01:44:50
Speaker
the werewolf transformation, not like the big transformation scene, but the slow burn and showing us that kind of in and out perspective of what's going on. I thought that was really clever and smart. I would watch this movie again. I actually anticipate it being a movie that grows on me with repeated watches. So I'm at a seven on this one.
01:45:18
Speaker
I'm not higher because the ending I kind of did not like at all. So the very ending when it all comes full circle, I wasn't a big fan of it. I don't know how else to end it, but as I, as I said earlier, it didn't, it went for the same kind of ending as the fly, but it did not have that same impact as the fly.
01:45:44
Speaker
So spoiling it without spoiling it it, it didn't hit like the fly does. you know so is a ba Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's what we were missing. We needed like a steamy moment, like in the fly, the whole love story. Yeah. have that here. I'd probably go with a six maybe.
01:46:04
Speaker
Like I said, I dozed off. I got a nice nap in the theater, which I never, for the record, I never do. But in the moment, I was like, you know what? I don't even care. I'm going to shut my eyes for a minute.
Final Scores and Reflections
01:46:15
Speaker
And I didn't miss anything, I don't think. I mean, I still am able able to, I'm here and I'm able to talk about the whole film. But yeah, I mean, I'll give it another watch. Maybe I'll like it more the second time around, but I'd say it's six.
01:46:28
Speaker
OK, well, um I scored it shortly after having watched the film and, you know, instead of giving it more time to really s sink in and think about it now that we've discussed it more, I mean, I'm going to change my score because um originally I was at a nine overall, but I feel like now I need to pick down to an eight. I feel like eight's where I'm at with it with the overall enjoyment because you're right that the ending was very lackluster and I was kind of hoping for something a little more on that. So That kind of irritated me a bit. And then just, you know, the the dad parenting action towards the beginning just was kind of annoying. um so yeah So, yeah, I think it's I'm good with eight. I would definitely watch it again, um because I think it's a good film and it's something that I've told other people about and like, hey, definitely check this out. So, yeah, it's good. Yeah, I mean, hell, I just watched Rumpelstiltskin from 1990.
01:47:26
Speaker
and follow i'll watch this one again then
01:47:32
Speaker
So that that kind of brings up a question I have.
01:47:39
Speaker
And that could be that it falls into the same same categories that I've talked about of purely entertaining horror and visceral horror. But, you know, I mentioned, you mentioned the Poonaverse movies. i I couldn't make it through the second one i i struggled to make it through the second one i watched the first one because i was curious struggle to make it through the second one i'm still intrigued by the peter pan one i'm still going to watch that one it's good i love i love winning the poo so maybe i'm not yeah so i guess i'm looking at horror is so fascinating because we have this world where people love these movies
01:48:26
Speaker
but then i see
01:48:29
Speaker
them critiquing a movie like this super hard. And so that's what and I'm not calling you out. I'm saying that's one of the things that I really like about the scoring system that we have here is we've talked about the quality of the filmmaking in just about every respect from the music, the editing, the special effects, and how well this movie was put together. But then we can still come in at the end and be like, it didn't hit for me.
01:48:59
Speaker
it's still a quality film. So I guess I get bothered by, and this is a personal anecdote, is it bothered me when somebody on Amazon gave the substance one star and called it Looney Tunes. And I was like, what is wrong with you? um But it's I see people give Wolfman like one out of five stars. And in my head, I'm going It's a better movie than that, even if it didn't quite land. So that's that's just one of the things I love about this discussion is we're able to bring every element of this film to the table and talk about it.
01:49:43
Speaker
And you know we realize you know it brings some new stuff to the story. It brings some things we haven't seen werewolf movies do before in and whether it landed for a particular viewer or not, there's still some quality elements to this film. So that's that's what I've loved about this conversation. ah Someday we might get into the Poonaverse.
01:50:08
Speaker
man. and If you ever do invite me back. that would be fun Is Steamboat really part of the Poonaverse? No, it's not. i I don't know. I got a lot of watching to do. geez Well, they haven't come out yet. So you're okay. I think screenboat is the first one to come out. Yes. And I'm sure I'll go see it. It's there's there's a love for just terror. I don't want to see it terrible. But like you said, it looks awful. And it's gonna be fun.
01:50:38
Speaker
like it's goingnna be a good ti are Absolutely. So going back to Peter Pan's Neverland Nightmare, I know it's part of the Poonaverse, but it's dark, it's disturbing, and it has more of a real world story. Okay. So I think for that, I would definitely see it. And there's some gore and some crazy kills in it like you'd expect. But I really liked it. I'm a fan.
01:51:03
Speaker
All right. That's, that's one that I definitely will check out. So our overall, we, I think, is this, Jonathan, is this your sister that also provided her score? Oh, that's my cousin. Yeah. She, she took me to the theater since I couldn't drive in the month. Jonathan,
01:51:20
Speaker
um glad she not something out right jonathan your final score. I had you at a 40. Yep. Um, I myself was at a 34.
01:51:31
Speaker
Your cousin was at a 38 and Aaron, you came in at a 36.
01:51:38
Speaker
So that actually has score. So that would be three and a half stars out of five. Okay. Yeah. I stand by that. So that all combined our total thoughts put together, put it at 37 or three and a half stars out of five.
01:51:55
Speaker
And I think that is, like I said, I think that's an accurate representation of this film. It addresses the quality of the film, but it's not one that's going to stick to landing with everybody. like So that's, I'm actually surprised that we were all actually so close, even though we had pretty differing opinions coming into it. So Aaron, thanks so much for being here.
01:52:20
Speaker
This has been a blast. I'll come on anytime. There's something awesome. Right. Future collabs too with my channel. Yes. Keep in mind, um, our 13 nights of Halloween about to get the list ready to come out, uh, probably early February 13 nights of Halloween. We do 13 episodes and 13 nights leading down to the day of Halloween. But this year's theme is folk horror.
01:52:46
Speaker
So if you have any particular folk horror films to bring to the table, you're absolutely welcome back for any of those. That that would be fun. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Let's talk. Okay. So any, ah any other last words?
01:53:01
Speaker
Just quickly, I wanted to touch on one thing that you were saying about the different types of movies. What I love so much about the horror genre is that there are so many sub-genres and some of it like the Winnie the Pooh movies, you go into those, you sort of expect something. With Wolfman, I expected more of a serious movie and I guess we sort of get that. And I guess lastly, I mean, like I said, I just wanted to say that's what I love so much about the horror genre, and unlike rom coms, for example.
01:53:28
Speaker
But maybe there are a bunch of sub-genres there, I don't know. Anyway, I think that was very astute, what you were getting at. but so warm Thank you. And I just watched, speaking of that, I just watched your interview with Stephen Kostansky. Kostansky, yes. Yeah, where he was talking about, you know, ah yeah Frankie Frico. yeah guulies go to college yeah frankie freakco yeah hes like yeah i missed we have the first cool I think the first Ghoulies movie is on our list for this year to cover. But yeah, like you're talking about those subgenres seem dead right now on big screens. but
01:54:13
Speaker
The smaller straight to release shutters got a great stuff. There's some great stuff out there But yeah horror has so many sub genres to get attached to and just fall in love with I love them off even if if I sit here and I critique them out of love because It's it's a passion. I love it. We do all kinds of movies. So if your last one we did was clue Okay I'm excited to jump on James Gunn's Superman when it releases. I can't wait to talk about that. But it's out of the love for film. I just love movies and the way it brings people together. And honestly, any movie that can drive a conversation to last almost two hours, that that's something special. I just love that so much. So again, thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Jonathan, do you have anything?
01:55:03
Speaker
No, I'm good. I'm just, you know, thank you so much for being here, Aaron, and being part of the conversation with us. And I can't wait to see what comes next, man. Can I have you on another episode in the future? Yeah. Agreed. So you want to tell people where they can find you?
Social Media and YouTube Channel Information
01:55:17
Speaker
Sure. On Instagram, we are at AB b Horror Movies and also at Aaron's Movies 8587. And on YouTube, you can just search for A and B with an ampersand horror or A and B horror movies, and our channel will come up Alright, he's got a ton of great interviews on there. Go check it out. That's that's all I have. Wolfman is probably still in theaters. Oh yeah, plug my book. Check it out. Aaron sending you a copy. So actually on the call. Thank you. up the book There is a handy dandy QR code on the back end here for the average. So i should just read to us. as yeah
01:55:57
Speaker
i I joked about doing my own, ah the average publishing company, but I just published through Amazon. I can set it up for you though. um But yeah, so Wolfman is most likely still playing in theaters near you by the time this comes out. If you listen to us and you think it might be worth seeing, I think it's worth seeing in theaters. I saw it on IMAX. I don't know if paying the extra for IMAX is worth it, but it's it's a good movie if you're interested in Wolfman.
01:56:26
Speaker
If any of the things we've said interest you, check it out. It's not as bad as I've heard some people say. So, that's all I have. We will see you in two weeks.