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Comics Catch-Up 072: Grendel: Devil By the Deed Master's Edition
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We're reading the 2023 update to Matt Wagner's first comic work from 1983. How does it hold up?
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Zencastr
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Comics Catch-Up: Addressing Backlogs
00:00:28
Speaker
Oh, my dad is carnage. I think he's fossil in the world. This is Comics Catch-Up. Hey, twerp. You better not be mine. Come on. Come on.
00:00:52
Speaker
Where we read comics suggested by you, the listeners of War Rocket Apex, that we have missed. Oh, hey! I didn't see you there. I didn't know you were gonna be around. Well, let's catch up.
00:01:08
Speaker
Because this is Comics Catch-Up.
Introduction to Grendel 'Devil by the Deed'
00:01:11
Speaker
The show where Chris Sims, who is here with me... Hello! We, Matt Wilson, we ah read the comics.
00:01:20
Speaker
That we... Didn't read the first time around. And this time on the show, we ah were asked, we've been asked to read Grendel comic for a long time.
00:01:35
Speaker
Various Grendel comics. And then we finally asked, okay, which one is the one we start with? What's a manageable amount of Grendel that we can read?
00:01:48
Speaker
What's a standard unit of Grendel? That's right. And what we were told by our our friend, longtime friend and collaborator, Mike Sterling.
Publication Details and Reading Experience
00:02:00
Speaker
I don't know, it feels weird to call Mike a collaborator. We have collaborated with Mike on some things. That's true. ah Mike said that the place to start, because it is officially the first Grendel story, is Devil by the Deed.
00:02:17
Speaker
Now... We read Devil by the Deed Master's Edition. Yes. Which is the total overhaul of the Devil by the Deed story. It's a remake?
00:02:34
Speaker
It's the remake. it's It was published in 2023 by Dark Horse. there was And it's longer than the original Devil by the Deed story. The original Devil by the Deed story is like 40-ish pages?
00:02:49
Speaker
I believe 37. Did you read the the postscript of of Devil by the Deed Master's Edition? I read some of it, but but more distinctly, or or immediately, I just went back and read the original Devil by the Deed story.
00:03:08
Speaker
Okay. ah Interesting. i I did not. Yeah. But I was very curious, and I did go kind of like, flip through it. Because it is available. It's in Grendel Archives Volume 1.
00:03:22
Speaker
It originally ran as backups in Mage. In the original Mage. yeah yeah That makes sense. yeah I think...
Art and Story of Grendel
00:03:32
Speaker
and Here's the thing, Matt.
00:03:35
Speaker
I think you would agree with me if I said this is not as good as the first volume of Mage. No, and...
00:03:46
Speaker
Look, I know a lot of people who listen to this show like Grendel a lot.
00:03:54
Speaker
This story didn't encourage me to read more Grendel, and not because of the art. The art is gorgeous. It really is.
00:04:06
Speaker
like It's wild that Matt Wagner has been at the peak of his powers for like 20 years. Yeah, like, the the art in the original Devil by the Deed is pretty good. The art in the Master's Edition is fucking beautiful. Breathtaking.
00:04:23
Speaker
Like, the reason to read it, honestly. Yeah.
Mixed Feelings and Pulp Nature
00:04:28
Speaker
Here's the thing, though. Here's the thing, though. you You read this before I did. And you texted me, as you are wont to do.
00:04:37
Speaker
And you said, people are going to mad.
00:04:41
Speaker
ah Because because a lot of people like Grendel, and you were not a fan. Well, I'll get into it, but... Okay, well, here's the thing.
00:04:55
Speaker
didn't hate it.
00:04:58
Speaker
I didn't... I didn't love it. And i I definitely feel like this is 2023 Matt Wagner...
00:05:11
Speaker
doing a doing art for like 18 year old Matt Wagner.
00:05:18
Speaker
Yes, very much, very much the case. Like, look, I, I don't, I don't hate it either. It is in many ways, like a pretty enjoyable kind of pulp story.
00:05:35
Speaker
if for, for listeners who don't know,
00:05:39
Speaker
Grindel, at least this version of Grindel, is a criminal mastermind.
Character Analysis: Hunter Rose
00:05:47
Speaker
He's basically like, what if the Shadow was a criminal? Yeah, he's a real phantom-oss.
00:05:54
Speaker
He's a real phantom-oss. That's exactly right. Yes. So, in addition to becoming the head who it in in addition to becoming the head of the criminal underworld...
00:06:08
Speaker
which he does. Hunter Rose is his name. He is also like a best-selling author and a really, really rich guy. and like he's He's the sort of character who sort of has it all. he's He's very similar to The Shadow in that way.
00:06:27
Speaker
like He's got a lot of the elements of a pulp hero, even though he is a master criminal. He's got an arch nemesis who is basically a werewolf, but he stays a wolf all the time.
00:06:41
Speaker
His name is Argent. Argent, comma, the wolf. Argent, comma, the wolf. um He's got a real cool costume, which is basically like a tuxedo with tails with a cool mask.
00:06:55
Speaker
And a and distinctive spear that he uses as a weapon. bident. A bident, you might call it. Which is called a fork.
00:07:07
Speaker
we are In the book? And, like, look, there's a lot to like about it. There's a lot of, like, enjoyable,
00:07:20
Speaker
art deco, noir-ish kind of storytelling here. which Which sounds like it's entirely up my alley and should be really up my alley, right?
00:07:32
Speaker
Mm-hmm. The problem is that as I continue to read this, things would happen that would put a pit in my stomach. Because...
00:07:44
Speaker
This was a comic that was originally written in, what, 1987? and and Earlier than that, Yeah, this is, ah according to the the back matter, Grindel is the first thing Matt Wagner did as a professional comics artist.
00:08:02
Speaker
Yeah, and it shows in some ways. And this was released for the 40th anniversary. ah Matt Wagner was born 1961, was...
00:08:14
Speaker
22 years old twenty when he did the original Devil by the Dean. And there are times when it shows. Yeah, there it it's ah definitely a story written by a 22-year-old in 1983. Okay.
00:08:31
Speaker
okay Let's just talk about it. One, it starts with Hunter Rose as like a 16-year-old Fucking a 30-year-old.
00:08:45
Speaker
36. 36-year-old woman. Yeah. because they it's Because it says she's more than twice his age. Yeah. um Which is... There's a running thing in this book where, like, it's never...
00:09:04
Speaker
it's never explicitly addressed and it's never referred to as being like an assault or grooming or anything, although other things are. Uh, but like, there's a really recurrent thing in this book of, of Hunter Rose being both the victim of a pedophile and also like pedophile adjacent himself.
Controversial Themes in Grendel
00:09:34
Speaker
But also hating pedophiles. But also hating pedophiles and like the the one thing he wouldn't abide in his criminal empire was anyone with those kinds of interests?
00:09:46
Speaker
Yeah. So no exploitation or or or pornography or ah and anything that would affect children. um and And I think it's actually like It ain't Berserk.
00:10:03
Speaker
It ain't Berserk, man. It ain't Berserk. Which is, as we have discussed, for you and me, that's kind of the gold standard of if you're going to do it. if you get If you're going to do it, you better be that good. know You better be that good.
00:10:17
Speaker
But I do think it's interesting. And the fact that it's presented kind of subtly. Like, Matt Wagner is a smart writer. And even going back and kind of you know rewriting and representing a story from his youth, ah i because I have not actually read Devil by the OG, but i I don't know if that's in there.
00:10:44
Speaker
But having this thing where it's like a weird, subtle indication of Hunter Rose, who's this, you know... ah good at everything he does, super genius, indomitable criminal mastermind, ah can beat anyone in a fight, is is is ah Batman plus, you know?
00:11:06
Speaker
Batman plus minus morality. And having this thing of him being like a victim who then fixates himself non-sexually on this little girl while
00:11:25
Speaker
while also like being a ruthless, violent murderer of pedophiles. It's interesting. It ain't Berserk. It is interesting.
00:11:36
Speaker
I think there are a couple different readings of his relationship with Jocasta. Should should have seen that one coming. Yeah. Actually, with that name.
00:11:51
Speaker
Like, on the one hand, I think you can see it as this subtle...
00:11:57
Speaker
victimization.
00:12:00
Speaker
But on the other hand, I feel like it's a presented a little bit as like good and cool that he did this as a teenager. It's, well, the... Like, i mean classic it's the classic a male student gets with his adult woman teacher. Yeah.
00:12:23
Speaker
And instead of it being abuse, it's like, whoa, dude. Yeah. well yeah you know like it's It feels like that a little bit to me. And like and like he takes her name and stuff, her her last name.
00:12:36
Speaker
And like he's he's like still kind of in love with her well into the future. and like...
00:12:47
Speaker
Man, I don't know. it's Like I said, it is...
00:12:54
Speaker
It's difficult to unravel the intent of the presentation. Because i think it it is revelatory of Hunter Rose as a character that this is like the only time in his life when he's not in charge.
00:13:17
Speaker
And it gets really weird once ah Oh, what's what's the little girl's name? Stacy. Yeah, Stacy... I keep wanting to call her Chuck Palumbo.
00:13:31
Speaker
Her last name's Palumbo, Stacy Palumbo, yeah. ah When Stacy shows up, it like that is also revealed to be like his weakness and his downfall. So it's... um man I know, man.
00:13:44
Speaker
It's tough to get ah read on that initial presentation because it is... Of the many ah kind of surprising, oh, that's Matt Wagner drawn to full naked lady sex scenes.
00:14:02
Speaker
oh he didn't Didn't do that in Batman. didn Didn't do that in Batman. Interestingly, that part of the story is greatly expanded in the Master's Edition.
00:14:23
Speaker
In the original, it's like a panel. And it just says, Grendel first told Argent how he had loved a woman over twice his age. And well, there's a few more panels that are just like showing it.
00:14:38
Speaker
um And then it says like, you know, eventually she died. um But it it it is it is much more fleshed out in this, I think, to kind of
00:14:53
Speaker
justify it or or give more nuance to it. ah Let's see. There's a little more text
Character Complexity and Relationships
00:15:00
Speaker
about it in
00:15:04
Speaker
ah in the original.
00:15:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's interesting because like yeah I think you're right about the thing like this is the only time in his life when he doesn't have any control. Because like... Even when he's like a younger kid, he's such a prodigy and he's so good at everything that he kind of is allowed to do whatever he wants. right and Then he gets on this fencing team and then he meets Jocasta who is the instructor or one of the trainers for the the British fencing team.
00:15:39
Speaker
and He's so smitten with her ah that Yeah, that's the one time that he he doesn't have control over what's happening in his life.
00:15:54
Speaker
Yeah, and she is very clearly the one who is in charge. But it's also, like, of the three... i remember there being three sex scenes in the book. It is the most idealized.
00:16:09
Speaker
And in fact, like the page that introduces Jocasa, she is presented as, like... ah she I mean, she looks like an art deco statue of justice. you know She looks like a statue, yeah. yeah She's holding a sword. She's she's got one nipple out.
00:16:26
Speaker
Yeah, just just one. for the you know As a treat. oh But they're like that sex scene is certainly the most idealized. and it But it's also like...
00:16:40
Speaker
It's difficult to tell if that's Matt Wagner romanticizing it or Hunter Rose romanticizing it. I think you could make a case either way. i like
00:16:51
Speaker
it's presented It's presented sort of like that in the original two, where it's kind of like his memories, you know?
00:17:04
Speaker
It's all in one page of like really long, thin panels vertically. and And I think you're supposed to interpret that as... sort of Hunter Rose's idealized memory of it.
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah. Which I don't...
00:17:25
Speaker
I don't think it's... I don't know. like the The way that it's kind of weaved through the story, i
00:17:35
Speaker
it's It's also difficult to tell if we're supposed to think Hunter Rose is cool.
00:17:41
Speaker
I mean, I think invariably we are supposed to. i mean, he's a cool looking dude and he's got like, you know, a cool costume and he is the ostensible protagonist of the story.
00:17:53
Speaker
But he's also this weird, unrelatable, like, criminal mastermind with no, like, he has no internality.
00:18:06
Speaker
like Well, I don't know. i like Because by the end of it, Stacy, not Stacy. that her name? Stacy. Stacy Palumbo. Okay. What have you done with your opportunity, Stacy Palumbo?
00:18:20
Speaker
By the end of it, Stacy brings him down, right? Like, her whole plan is to bring him down because she kind of realizes who he really is.
00:18:31
Speaker
Right? Yeah. And so so I think by the end of it, we're supposed to definitely be on Stacy's side here. And, and not necessarily, and, and kind of have come around to saying like, Oh, actually Hunter Rose, like, even though he had all the trappings of a cool guy, of a cool protagonist, like there were a lot of downsides to him and reasons why Stacy had to do that.
Moral Ambiguity and Societal Critiques
00:19:05
Speaker
Yeah. but and Like he kills a lot of people. But much like Doctor Doom, it's hard to really not get behind him when he's specifically like, yeah, and he fucking hated pedophiles.
00:19:22
Speaker
Well, it's a real mixed bag, right? because like Yeah, but i think but i but I also feel like that is the that's the closest thing we get to like internality and internal conflict for Hunter Rose.
00:19:34
Speaker
Because the structure of all this is that it's It's Stacy's daughter writing a book based on Hunter Rose's journals.
00:19:48
Speaker
Yes. So it's her interpretation of his interpretation of himself. And it's... There's a little bit of an onion to it, you know? like It's like Shrek.
00:20:05
Speaker
It's exactly like Shrek. It's exactly like Shrek, and you should tell Matt Wagner, one of my all-time favorite comics creators, that I said that. but so Please tell Matt Wagner that I said, Grindel Devil by the Deed, Master's Edition, is exactly like Shrek.
00:20:21
Speaker
Please tell him that I said it was just like Shrek, and that Matt said he didn't like it, and also it was just like Shrek. Yeah.
00:20:30
Speaker
Here's the thing. Here's the thing. i think ah I think all of that is interesting. And I think... I don't dislike that sort of...
00:20:43
Speaker
sense of it being up to you. To come to the which conclusion whatever conclusion you like about Hunter Rose as a person and a character. But at the same time...
00:20:55
Speaker
He reads as like the idealized protagonist of a 22-year-old dude writing a story. Who's like, okay, he's this. He's like the best-selling author in the world, but also he's a master criminal, and he's the best. and he's also like he He can't do anything wrong, and the one thing he does do wrong is just like out of callousness.
00:21:16
Speaker
And Stacy only brings him down because yeah you know it's that kind of thing. Where it's like... You can't write characters with flaws. It is certainly like... The fact that he's a best-selling writer who can write a book in a week, like a novel in a week, is so... i see 22-year-old Matt Wagner drawing pages for Comico and being like, you know one day this will be easy.
00:21:48
Speaker
One day. Yeah, that that's that's like a that's dream casting, right? Like... yeah I think we're supposed to think he's cool. yeah i don't think, at least for 61-year-old, 62-year-old Matt Wagner, i don't think we're supposed to think he's good. like He is depicted as a full-on sociopath.
00:22:14
Speaker
like he He sees this little girl and he's like, oh, I like her. I'll kill her adopted father. ah Well, yeah. I mean, I think if you look at the difference between the original story and the Master's Edition, what is added makes that clear.
00:22:34
Speaker
isn' But because this has to be an adaptation of the original story, it's got to have all that stuff in it still. yeah right And so there's stuff in here that's like
00:22:51
Speaker
I feel, i look, I don't know. I don't, like, because maybe if Matt Wagner wanted to change it, he would have changed it.
00:23:00
Speaker
But it's very, ah like, the original text, or a lot of it, is still in here. And so I feel like there was a ah sense of, like, well, if I'm going to update it, I have to stay true to it. And so the stuff where, like, he meets Stacy, and it becomes clear that it's,
00:23:23
Speaker
platonic?
00:23:26
Speaker
It doesn't seem platonic at first. No, no, especially when it's like, Hunter Rose definitely thought she was the reincarnation of of his abuser.
00:23:39
Speaker
and And here's what I'll say before we get into any of the rest of this. The stuff specifically on like page like page two, I think is interesting, but it ain't berserk.
00:23:53
Speaker
The other uses of sexual assault in this comic, they ain't Berserk, they ain't Watchmen, they ain't Identity Crisis, but barely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:06
Speaker
So I'm just going to read you ah some text from from the part where Hunter meets Stacy. Is this in the original or the Master's Edition? This is in the Master's Edition. Okay. And you tell me what this sounds like, okay? Okay.
00:24:22
Speaker
She navigated the party alone and undaunted. Like his beloved Jocasta, she possessed a singular aplomb. He was entranced by her youthful wanderings, but at some point lost track of her.
00:24:34
Speaker
She had seemingly vanished from the scene. He took the opportunity to do some reconnaissance of the estate while, more than he cared to admit, secretly hoping to catch another glimpse of her.
00:24:45
Speaker
He found her alone again in the library. Man, it we have no we have no reason to believe it is sexual. It is weird.
00:25:00
Speaker
It is weird. It's weird. it's It reads weird. And like through that entire part, not knowing what was coming, I was just like, oh my god. Yeah, I was there i was a real oh no.
00:25:13
Speaker
on that as well. But again, i do think in the context of the entire story, look, shout out to Matt Wagner, big swing, big swing being like, yeah, let's do a repressed pedophile protagonist.
00:25:30
Speaker
Who's a little bit self-loathing about it. It's like, it's a, it's a weird mix of stuff where like, big swing abused.
00:25:42
Speaker
It seems like he has some tendencies to be an abuser as well. And you could read it as his hatred of pedophiles and and targeting of them and all of that is like a sort of... it Repressing his own urges and like... Or or an externalization of his self-hatred.
00:26:05
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Right? Like... like And that's interesting, but also like kind of hard to read. like It's interesting. I certainly didn't expect it.
00:26:17
Speaker
Going in, I thought, oh, this goes... like Because here's what I knew about Grendel going in. Grendel's one of those books that was a ah Wizard Magazine favorite. Absolutely, yeah. And it's hard to tell if If it's like a Wizard Magazine favorite in the way Usagi Yojimbo was a Wizard Magazine favorite, or if it's a Wizard Magazine favorite in the way that, like, Witchblade was a Wizard Magazine favorite, you know? like Like Dawn?
00:26:48
Speaker
Yeah, Dawn. Dawn is a good one to bring up.
00:26:53
Speaker
They like Dawn because there were ads for for Dawn in every issue of Wizard. I think Gareth Seamus might have given them those ads for free. i think he called up Joseph Michael Lindsner on the phone and was like, hey, dawg, keep painting this beautiful redhead.
00:27:11
Speaker
ah You want a page, buddy? you want You want to do a special one-half of Cry for Dawn? like And you know what? I'll be honest with you. i haven't read a fucking page of Dawn.
00:27:22
Speaker
haven't read a fucking panel of it. Maybe it's great. maybe that's Maybe that's the next comics catch-up. It's we re-cry for Dawn.
00:27:33
Speaker
so So look. Okay. So there's that. but There's the fact that he like sort of callously kills Stacy's dad so he can adopt her.
00:27:45
Speaker
And let's... some lady take the blame for it. And like, who is executed, who is executed. yeah And like, look, that is ultimately what brings him down. Like Stacy finds out about that and is like, okay, he can't be allowed to continue. So at least that, like, that's cool. Like I, I'm glad that that turned out that way.
00:28:12
Speaker
um But the whole element of him like writing a book called My Little Chickadee that helps him adopt Stacy,
00:28:22
Speaker
um but that's a very 22-year-old writer kind concept there. all one One thing that I appreciate the restraint that Matt Wagner has is we are told that Hunter Rose's books are great,
00:28:40
Speaker
And huge sellers. ah Two things that are very rarely actually the case at the same time for the same book. oh But we do not get any excerpts of the books or of any of... I think there's like maybe one paragraph in the entirety of this that is an excerpt from his diaries, his logs.
00:29:07
Speaker
And ah that's good. Because you never want to write, you never want to say like, and he was the best writer in the world, and this is his book, and then and then give people that invitation.
00:29:23
Speaker
But I gotta say, My Little Chickadee better have been the best book ever put on paper. Listen, I'm just saying, if if you're trying to adopt a kid, and then you write a book called My Little Chickadee, and...
00:29:39
Speaker
Then you go in front of a judge. A real judge would be like, you have got to be fucking kidding me. Yes. Yes. Very much so.
00:29:50
Speaker
Matt, you are you are very correct on that. Like, it... it I ah hope Like, that book better have been doing one piece numbers. You know?
00:30:01
Speaker
if it's helping his case, God almighty. Yeah. Yeah. it it's It just, it strays credulity a little bit.
00:30:12
Speaker
That shit better have had Spider-Man lifting three or four heavy things. you're telling me You're telling me, man. ah the The other, okay.
Narrative Critique and Issues
00:30:23
Speaker
One other thing I want to bring up, and then we can get into other elements. There are two different mentions of rape in this that are totally unnecessary. Yeah. That one of them...
00:30:35
Speaker
The first one I kind of get... like But that's only to make a bad guy worse. It's only to make a bad guy worse, but it... does like i Matt, don't get me wrong.
00:30:47
Speaker
I don't think it's necessary. yeah But it it's one of the few things in the book that establishes that there is a... that There is a distinction between Grendel, the the boss of all bosses, and...
00:31:05
Speaker
the common criminal. Sure. Like, yeah he does have lines that he will not cross personally, although he lets these guys get away with this for a long time.
00:31:19
Speaker
oh yeah So I get there there is a narrative purpose to it. Is that narrative purpose justified? No, absolutely not. It's unnecessary. It didn't need to be in here.
00:31:31
Speaker
And it's it like...
00:31:35
Speaker
That's, that's ah it's a real, like, I would be more inclined to forgive 22-year-old Matt Wagner in 1983 for putting it in his comic than Matt Wagner 2023 keeping it in his comic.
00:31:52
Speaker
yeah The second one just comes out of fucking nowhere. Well, the second one, it just gives Stacey, like, the saddest fucking ending you can imagine.
00:32:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. like sad and victim victimized and bad. and like it and like it's like The whole thing that happens with Stacey is not like... ah It's presented as though it is like a tragic end to her story, but it's not.
00:32:22
Speaker
Because a tragedy has pathos. This is just like... shitty. Yeah, it's it's like, here's how she had a kid in the worst way. Yeah. ah and because now Because she married her therapist, which is, I guess, another example of oh ah kind of you know the abuse of power and relationships.
00:32:51
Speaker
It's not dissimilar in that regard. ah but she marries her therapist who then turns out to be a, uh, psychopath on their wedding night.
00:33:02
Speaker
Yeah. And it's like, whoa, dude. And it's, and that happens, that all happens on one page. And it's now, now that feels 1983. ah nineteen eighty three Like that feels like a thing that would happen in, you know,
00:33:21
Speaker
ah ah Brian De Palma movie in the early eighty s you know like like That's very much of its time. yeah and and yeah I don't know. it's um like I want to like this book. and i want to i want to like there There are plenty of things I do like about it. And then there just like storytelling decisions like that where I'm just like, why why did you have to do that?
00:33:49
Speaker
Why did it have to be like that? And again, it is the... it it is in the original, but it's like, yeah, you coulda... Like...
00:34:07
Speaker
Like, yeah, it's Grendel canon, but you know who gets to say what Grendel canon is? Matt Wagner. Matt Wagner? Yeah. Yeah. Like, it ain't, it ain't like, it ain't Superman, you know?
00:34:21
Speaker
There's, there's a corporation that has to decide what Superman canon is, and they fuck it up most of the time. That's true. Like, Matt Wagner gets to say, like, this is Grindel canon.
00:34:33
Speaker
It's, yeah. It, like... Or at least, at the very least, don't do it in one page! it it like I don't want it dragged out, but i would you know it's like, whoa!
00:34:50
Speaker
Like, Jesus. Yeah, and again, that that whole that whole part is only there to explain that Stacey had a daughter who is then writing this book. Yeah, which also is the conceit of the original. Yeah.
00:35:04
Speaker
And, like, i don't know. It doesn't have to be like that. It does not have to be like that. Like, I can even accept that the like the thing about like having a romantic tryst with a much older woman is like totally ingrained in the character of Hunter Rose and explains
00:35:29
Speaker
a good amount of why he is like he is. Right? like I can get that. I can i can understand that that's intrinsic to Hunter Rose.
00:35:40
Speaker
But like some of that other shit... hey intrinsic to the story like you know what i mean like i don't know like also i want to know more about arjit arjit is fascinating to me the the 300 year old uh werewolf yeah like i think you're a werewolf batman Yeah.
00:36:06
Speaker
ah I think one of the most fascinating things about this story is the fact that Argent also has a relationship with Stacy, and like comes to visit her, and like has tea parties with her, and it's like her little friend.
00:36:21
Speaker
like Yeah, which is very – he's a werewolf, but it's very Frankenstein. It's very Frankenstein, yeah. Weirdly seems less weird than the other relationships with Stacy. Yeah.
00:36:35
Speaker
Yeah, it feels more wholesome, if nothing else. ah
00:36:41
Speaker
Yeah, man, I like i don't hate it. Like I said, I don't hate it.
00:36:46
Speaker
It just feels like a good story that I can't help but say is marred by some
00:36:58
Speaker
bad and not necessarily totally thought out decision-making choices and storytelling. And we have stories like that on the list. Uh, like, uh, the first volume of lone wolf and cub.
00:37:13
Speaker
Um, like, i look, I love the part where Argent and, and Grindel are on the phone with each other and we get the transcript of their phone call, which is directly from the original directly from the original. Yeah. Yeah.
00:37:27
Speaker
Uh, that part's great. Like, there are several parts of this that I think
Stacy's Plan and Artistic Praise
00:37:31
Speaker
are great. Like, like the sort of like bill, build to their first big fight that Stacy, or their last big fight that Stacy says up where they essentially like kill each other.
00:37:42
Speaker
Um, like I love that. There's plenty to like about this. I like that. I like Stacey's master plan. And that Stacey is the like ultimate manipulator.
00:37:55
Speaker
i think is is actually like really cool. Because she learned it from Hunter. She learned it from her adopted dad. Yeah. like the The parallels of that structure are really neat.
00:38:06
Speaker
um ah A lot of it, though, I think is...
00:38:13
Speaker
like Like, there's a whole thing ah with a police detective ah who's on the Grendel task force, who also gets an incredibly shitty ending that's just depressing.
00:38:29
Speaker
She gets all burned up and is horribly scarred for the rest of the time. Yeah, and all of her appearances, like, don't really... like wind up mattering at all. Like she is built up as being kind of like a Jim Gordon.
00:38:47
Speaker
um But then ultimately, you know, three quarters the way through the book, it's like, yeah. And then she burned all her skin and most of her fingers off and went to Florida and became an alcoholic.
00:38:58
Speaker
And it's very like, it's very specifically a downer in that eighties comics way. Well, what's wild about that is I think that is completely an invention of the Master's Edition.
00:39:12
Speaker
I think her as a character is completely an invention of the Master's Edition. I don't think she's the original at all. Wild. yeah But yeah, like there's like there's a lot of stuff that is either like not great or just like kind of needlessly depressing. like the I like a lot of the dark stuff in here.
00:39:37
Speaker
But a lot of it is dark stuff that ah ah a ridiculously talented future legend 22-year-old came up with.
00:39:49
Speaker
Like, don don't get it twisted. matt Wagner had it.
00:39:54
Speaker
Like, Matt Wagner got better, but even at 22, like... like fucking crushing it like for 1983 for 22 years old i i we brought up berserk a few times yeah and i think this is an interesting story to compare to the black swordsman arc which is kintaro murrah a very young kintaro murrah
00:40:32
Speaker
Being a little edgier than he would eventually be. And he even came to say years later that he regretted
00:40:43
Speaker
being a little too edgy in his earliest stories. And that he would have pulled that back later. yeah This is... Go ahead, go ahead. That shit still holds up.
00:40:57
Speaker
I don't even give up I don't even care. Like, there's some stuff where Guts is out of character. but it holds up for the most part. this This is like if that that first page where Guts is fucking that demon lady like kept happening. yeah like If that page happened like three or four times in the Black Swordsman arc, and every time you were like, wait, what the fuck? Is this canon?
00:41:21
Speaker
and and And instead of like, it's like, ha ha ha, I was only fucking you as a trick. You're a demon and I'm going to kill you, which is what happens. It was like, I can't stop thinking about that demon lady. it still had but it still had ah I'm Only Fucking You as a Trick.
00:41:47
Speaker
Yeah, man. I will say, i mean, you said it at the at the top, but we cannot really oversell this. This is one of the most beautiful comics I've ever read.
00:42:00
Speaker
Oh, it's like Like, from an art standpoint. And the original is is is beautiful, too. But this is, like... This Master's Edition is stunningly beautiful. Yeah, it's it's black and white with red spot color. And the color was actually done by matt Wagner's son.
00:42:18
Speaker
Yes. ah So, you know, that's fun. Yeah, mean, it's undeniably...
00:42:29
Speaker
artistically a masterwork like it is a master like master's edition is correct like it is ah master just showing off like look how good i draw uh because it's like every page is frameable um i do have a question about that though so guys go Make your point first. and bolt Well, i I have a thought about it, which is that I think it's interesting that Matt Wagner, the artist, completely redid everything that he did when he was 22.
00:43:10
Speaker
But Matt Wagner, the writer, kept so much of the writing that he did. That's a great i i i would love Honestly, I would love to ask him about that because I think regardless of how we feel about it, I think that's interesting. like Clearly his his art style is different now than it was 40 years ago, obviously, but you know so is his writing style.
00:43:36
Speaker
yeah like i i don't think the Matt Wagner of 2023 would have written this this way. There's a part of me that thinks that
00:43:47
Speaker
That's an audience consideration.
00:43:51
Speaker
The audience won't mind so much all new art, but they might reject full-on story changes.
00:44:03
Speaker
That's just a guess, though. I might be wrong. But here's my question about the art. I mean, look, I think I know the answer, but I think we've got to ask this.
Grendel's Place in Comics and Debate
00:44:17
Speaker
Because we're doing Comics Catch-Up, and this is going to go on the Every Story Ever list. Yes. Is this a comic?
00:44:26
Speaker
Okay, i see I see what you're getting at. Because it is it is illustrated text. You might call this an illustrated short story.
00:44:39
Speaker
There's no dialogue balloons. It's all... it's all narration text boxes over illustrations.
00:44:51
Speaker
Now, i think we can I think we can settle on it being a comic because there are pages with sequential art. There are pages with sequential art, and I don't think this works if you just take the text.
00:45:07
Speaker
I think that's also probably true, yeah. If you just read this as the text, I don't think you would get the story. in the way that you get the story with text and art. And there are other comics that that do this. I mean, i my question is, did we rank that one issue of Batman? um
00:45:28
Speaker
I don't think we have. The Morrison Batman? I don't think we have. that that one has That's a genuine question of, is this a comic? That is a genuine question of, is this a comic? And also, it's...
00:45:39
Speaker
the worst issue. It's maybe the worst comic Morrison has ever written. It's it's but pretty rough stuff, yeah. yeah But i think I think this is, as much as it is a a lot of, it's a comic pretending to be a novel, yeah but I think it is pretending to be a novel.
00:46:03
Speaker
It's very much a comic. There's a lot of just just like full page pieces of art or
00:46:15
Speaker
pieces of art on a single page that aren't necessarily sequential but there's enough sequential art in here that I think it does count but I think it was worth asking the question just to have asked the question ah because but that is something we've got to stay abreast of as we as we yeah do the every story ever list yeah
00:46:38
Speaker
With that in mind, let's rank it.
00:46:44
Speaker
Where? I mean, you mentioned the the kind of beautiful and problematic section of the list. Yeah, I mean, again, the first thing that comes to mind for me is Lone Wolf and Cub Volume 1, which is at number 1313. I think this is better than that.
00:47:04
Speaker
I know, man. I went back and read Lone Wolf and Cub Volume 1 again recently. It kind of kicks ass. I mean, I know. I know why it's here. Not all of it kicks ass. yeah But Matt, he is the Shogun's executioner.
00:47:16
Speaker
I mean, it's it's good. But it has that one thing that really, really makes it hard to recommend. and It is the one thing to put it at – that, I think, is a question.
00:47:27
Speaker
Would you recommend this comic to anybody?
00:47:32
Speaker
carefully. i think i would I think I would disclose more about this comic than we knew about it going in. Absolutely. I would say, hey, um it's going to seem like the protagonist is really interested in a little girl.
00:47:50
Speaker
Don't – it's not like that. He is, but it's non-sexual as far as we can tell. as By every indication in the story, he just wants to adopt her.
00:48:01
Speaker
um But some of the text will really make it seem like he is attracted to her. Yeah. Look, he is a weird psychopath with yeah like no morality, but it does it's not it's not that.
00:48:16
Speaker
Except for his his only morality is that he hates pedophiles. except Except for the one that oh but he took her name after they, according to the text, just spent a solid month fucking.
00:48:31
Speaker
Yeah. It's complicated. It's complicated. It's complicated. It's complicated. I do think that complication speaks well of it, though. i think it I think it makes it interesting to discuss and makes Hunter Rose a complicated character in a good way. Like, in a in a in a way that it doesn't seem like on the surface.
00:48:55
Speaker
Because on the surface, it just seems like he's at this perfect guy who has everything. um So, but actually, our discussion of that made that clearer to me, and and made me like that part of it more.
00:49:10
Speaker
um But it's still weird. It's weird. It's weird. Yeah. How far above Lone Wolf and Cove are you thinking? Because I'm looking at stuff and it's like, could see it kind of going anywhere in the 1200s.
00:49:28
Speaker
Yeah, i I mean, I think it's because again, it's real pretty, y'all. It's better than typeface. It's better than the superior stratagem. It's better than combo band number one.
00:49:45
Speaker
like can we Can we set a lower bar, Matt? ah I'm just looking in the 1200s, baby. yeah Yeah, that's fair. Let's see. Omega of the Unknown is is just like headier than we want from a comic.
00:50:05
Speaker
That's at 1231. That's the 1976 Omega of the Unknown, too. Yeah. It's better than Weapon Brown. yeah um its better than whi brown Okay.
00:50:17
Speaker
ah Honestly, enjoyed reading it more than I have ever enjoyed reading Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe. i think it's better than I think it's better than that, probably. yeah
00:50:32
Speaker
a Maybe it gets out of the 1200s, actually. Well, 1200, we have a Spider-Man vs. Mud Thing, and Amazing Spider-Man vs. 217-218.
00:50:47
Speaker
It's gotta be better than the Garfield strip where John drinks dog jizz.
00:50:54
Speaker
You say that like that's a foregone conclusion. and I'm not sure it is. think that comic might be ranked too low. No, it's exactly where it should be.
00:51:08
Speaker
Because fuck John Arbuckle, it's funny that he takes a real fucking swig of dog jizz. Like an absolute fucking freak. You know, jarred up John Arbuckle is a lot like Hunter Rose when you think about it.
00:51:24
Speaker
Hey, um I know we've joked a lot. Do not tell Matt Wagner that we said that. Grendel, he's exactly like John Arbuckle.
00:51:37
Speaker
Oh, Grendel hates Mondays. Okay.
00:51:44
Speaker
Okay. I don't think I would put this above Dingbats of Danger Street, which is at 1164. The original Kirby Dingbats of Danger Street. Correct.
00:51:56
Speaker
um But like this is probably better than the Mean Man. We have that 1167. Mean Man is not problematic in the same way.
00:52:08
Speaker
That's true. Mean Man what is funny. But I did enjoy this more than I enjoyed the Mean Man. ah Kitchen Irish is at 1166. That's a little problematic. ah I think this is better than that.
00:52:25
Speaker
I think it's probably better than the first two issues of the original Ninjak.
Ranking Grendel and Listener Engagement
00:52:29
Speaker
Alright, this is going to be the new 1165 then.
00:52:35
Speaker
So Grendel, Devil by the Deed, Master's Edition is the new number 1165.
00:52:46
Speaker
And that is not about the art. That is not about the the general story. It's about some of that just stuff that's in there that's like, wow, why is that in there?
00:52:59
Speaker
Yeah, if you um if you're a fan of Matt Wagner, I could recommend this. I mean, if you've listened to this far into the podcast, then you you know everything you know to make the decision of whether you want to read it.
00:53:14
Speaker
Here's my question now. Now that we've ranked this. Now that we've ranked this, where are we going to put Cry for Dawn? We've got to read it first. Now that we've ranked this, and now that we've made clear, like...
00:53:31
Speaker
It's not that I'm not open to more Grendel. I am open to more Grendel. But I want grin the Grendel stuff, much like Dragon Ball Z. Which... Or just Dragon Ball. Not Dragon Ball Z. Just Dragon Ball.
00:53:43
Speaker
Like, we read the first volume of Dragon Ball and we were like... Why does it got to wholell of have all that shit in it? Yeah, the first arc of Dragon Ball, not my favorite. And then Dragon Ball got a lot better, right?
00:53:55
Speaker
I have a feeling that that probably happens with Grendel. So tell us tell us when that happens and what to read then. ah that's That's your next assignment, Grendel lovers.
00:54:09
Speaker
yeah Tell us about the parts where it gets away from the the kind of make you worried about what the story is about to do.
00:54:23
Speaker
yeah kind of stuff. I mean, maybe like, I feel like now we could probably read Batman Grendel, like, which was also recommended or the Grendel shadow, which, ah Matt Wagner also did. Yeah. Um,
00:54:39
Speaker
And i um I wonder if there's a conversation in Batman Grendel where Batman's like, hey, I also hang out with a small child and it's not weird. And Grendel's like, damn, me too.
00:54:52
Speaker
I mean, it's a little weird. I mean, you know, first we're going to read Joseph Michael Linsger's Dawn. but then But then who knows where we'll go from there. Who can say?
Closing Thoughts and Future Plans
00:55:06
Speaker
So that's it. ah Thanks for listening, everybody. ah I'm not going to say that I didn't get something out of reading this, um but some warning some warnings about like what the content of this would have was going to be would have been nice.
00:55:25
Speaker
Yeah. i yeah i I think I enjoyed it more than you did, and I wholeheartedly agree with that. yeah Do we just skip to Grendel Omnibus Volume 2 where it's not Hunter Rose anymore?
00:55:41
Speaker
That's probably worthwhile. It's it's ah it's the author, right? the the It's gotta to be. it's ah what's What's her name? ah Because I think she does eventually become Grindel.
00:55:54
Speaker
yeah
00:55:57
Speaker
Damn, Tim Sale drew this? almighty. God almighty. I think Matt Wagner works worked with some very, very good artists. Christine Spahr. Christine Powell Spahr.
00:56:08
Speaker
Christine Spahr is definitely a name I've seen in Wizard Magazine. so I believe she eventually eventually does become Grindel. ah so ah yeah maybe Maybe we should read the stories about her as Grindel.
00:56:23
Speaker
ah Again, thanks for listening, everybody. ah We'll be back in September with another catch-up. We may be joking about reading Joseph Michael Lissner's Dawn.
00:56:35
Speaker
God, I kind of want to now. Now that I've said it, I do kind of want to
00:56:42
Speaker
ah let's let's paint Let's pick a Wizard magazine and read every comic that they talk about in it. ah
Supporting the Show and Contact Information
00:56:50
Speaker
If you would like to donate to help keep this show going monthly, our weekly War Rocket Ajax show,
00:56:58
Speaker
Monthly Every Story Ever specials, as well as Movie Fighters and Snack Situation, go to patreon.com slash warrocketajax to kick in as little as a dollar a month and support this show and all of those other shows.
00:57:09
Speaker
um If you want to email us ah suggestions for Comics Catch-Up or about anything else, warrocketpodcast at gmail.com.
00:57:20
Speaker
Our website is warrocketajax.com. It has every episode of the show that we've ever done. WarRocketWiki.com has all the information you could want or need about this show, WarRocketAjax. ah We're on BlueSky, WarRocketAjax.com there. We're on Tumblr, WarRocketPodcast.tumblr.com there.
00:57:39
Speaker
You can also join our Discord if you want to ah join over there, be part of that community. Ask us for an invitation and we will send you one.
00:57:50
Speaker
If you want to find me and my stuff, Go to mattdwilson.net to find links to everything that I do. Chris, where can people find you? Everybody can find me at the-isb.com. That is my website, and it's got links to the things that I do.
00:58:09
Speaker
Bye, everybody. We'll see you next time. Good catching up.