Transcript
Speaker: Hello everyone and welcome back to the Polymath Experience.
Speaker: I'm your host, Polymath.
Speaker: And today I want to make it clear how special and how much of a privilege it is to have these guys with us.
Speaker: I genuinely think they're building something that will become a cornerstone of the financial markets of tomorrow.
Speaker: We've talked in a previous episode about tokenization of real world assets and the effects they will have or it will have.
Speaker: And while they're basically building the layer that will allow for these effects to take place.
Speaker: They have massive support from OGs in the space.
Speaker: They're the definition of Web3 native.
Speaker: They're doing so much better than a lot of people out there in these market conditions right now.
Speaker: And it's really cool to see.
Speaker: They've seen what's on the other side of the financial market and they don't want anything to do with it.
Speaker: Guys, meet Aaron and Mason, chief executor and chief operator of the Wasabi protocol.
Speaker: Welcome, guys.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you so much for that kind introduction.
Speaker: The privilege is all ours.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: I really appreciate it.
Speaker: Yeah, I've been looking forward to this one and preparing it was like, it's so cool what you're building.
Speaker: I see where you're going and I see what you're doing.
Speaker: And I really wanted to short everything when I was preparing for today.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Can you briefly or not so briefly tell me about
Speaker: what each of you were doing before you got into this, like the part of the journey that led you here.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: I can, I can start it off.
Speaker: So I'm fairly technical, studied engineering at school, computer engineering.
Speaker: And then I had the opportunity to work for two early stage startups.
Speaker: That was like a great experience.
Speaker: I was able to work with the co-founders pretty early, was able to scale their companies.
Speaker: But the thing is, I come from a family of artists.
Speaker: My mom's a precious painter, grandparents are sculptors.
Speaker: And I've always wanted to be an artist myself.
Speaker: Maybe I wasn't brave enough to pursue that career.
Speaker: But with NFTs, I found a niche that was the intersection of art and technology.
Speaker: And I just couldn't resist but enter the space.
Speaker: I met Hasan, my co-founder in New York, after school when I started working full-time here.
Speaker: With Hasan, we started trading a little bit.
Speaker: We started building strategies.
Speaker: And then thankfully I met Mason at the Magic Eden Ethereum launch party.
Speaker: And then we just clicked right off the bat.
Speaker: He's been integral to the team, to the whole progress.
Speaker: Like I couldn't have asked for someone like more better or like important to the project itself.
Speaker: That's amazing.
Speaker: Amazing to hear.
Speaker: I'll jump into mine.
Speaker: So I first bought Bitcoin in 2015 when I was in college, but not really for the tech, because people were buying it and using it to buy other things.
Speaker: And after that, I kind of fell off.
Speaker: Like I didn't really pay attention to it.
Speaker: I was in college for finance.
Speaker: After college, I graduated and I started working at Deutsche Bank.
Speaker: So I wasn't able to trade like the stock market, like, you know, like an average person would, I would have to like report it and ask to be able to trade this, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: So when GameStop started and I was watching all my friends outside of banking, making all this money in GameStop and like,
Speaker: having fun and it was during COVID, right?
Speaker: Or like maybe right before COVID.
Speaker: I was like, what can I do?
Speaker: So I got back into crypto and bought like Dogecoin super early.
Speaker: And then I made some money there.
Speaker: The Robinhood thing happened and everyone was like, oh, we hate Robinhood.
Speaker: So I left Robinhood and I went to Binance and I got more into the altcoins before eventually getting onto the chain and getting into like DeFi summer, right?
Speaker: A lot of it was on like Binance Smart Chain,
Speaker: And I was seeing all these new protocols coming out, stuff like PancakeSwap and ApeSwap and just watching how these protocols made complex financial trades and like...
Speaker: like financial instruments palpable palpable to like add the retail user right like just watching a person that was like a cashier at walmart being able to trade on these exchanges and understand a permanent loss and like how this how everything worked so i got super deep into it there and then eventually nfts came up i just like you know obviously like you see the pictures and you fall in love with the pictures and then there's money and
Speaker: It's just all snowballed and I just fell in love with it there.
Speaker: But growing up, my dad's a commercial real estate developer.
Speaker: So I got to see how illiquid the real estate market was.
Speaker: We want to talk about real assets.
Speaker: I could watch how people with large amounts of real estate would need cash and inflow, like cash injections and stuff like this to pay for property taxes or whatever it might be.
Speaker: And I got super interested in the idea of like,
Speaker: basically tokenizing assets, right?
Speaker: Like, how can we tokenize this piece of real estate to like give the owner a cash inflow without needing to go to a traditional bank and like ask for a loan or stuff like this.
Speaker: So yeah, I just like really fell in love with the whole idea of decentralized finance and like putting power back in the people's hands and taking it away from the banks.
Speaker: And then I left Wall Street and joined Aaron.
Speaker: on this journey.
Speaker: Creech, that's awesome.
Speaker: Wasabi Start, did you start from the long-term vision of like eventually everything is gonna be on the, everything's gonna be a token and we're gonna build a platform for it?
Speaker: Or was it more, we need a way to easily trade NFTs,
Speaker: that anyone could understand on the UI and we're going to build that or maybe somewhere in between?
Speaker: So for us, we always knew NFTs were going to be more than PFPs.
Speaker: Like real estate is an example.
Speaker: Another example is IP.
Speaker: Most of the time, like my experience at startups, the most valuable thing a startup has is its IP.
Speaker: And right now with this technology, you could basically tokenize deeds, you can tokenize companies, you can tokenize the IP within the company.
Speaker: And one of the most opaque sectors in the industry is like that, especially for startups.
Speaker: So NFTs basically unlock a lot of different potentials on use cases we can't even think about yet.
Speaker: And we kind of made a bet on that opportunity.
Speaker: We thought like people weren't looking at it.
Speaker: It was a greenfield kind of industry.
Speaker: And after trading in it,
Speaker: Even with PFPs, we realized certain problems, right?
Speaker: And the biggest problem being fragmented liquidity, no access to liquidity.
Speaker: And that is unfortunately the case for the whole crypto ecosystem.
Speaker: So if you can solve fragmented liquidity,
Speaker: or illiquidity for NFTs that are unique, that are traded much less than ERC-20s, then you could basically solve the same problem for any other asset that is represented on the chain.
Speaker: Like we got into building Wasabi.
Speaker: We started with options, but the overall idea was to connect to the all parts of the market, including marketplaces, lending protocols, different DeFi protocols, and basically facilitate a much more efficient trading.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: Yeah, it's...
Speaker: Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker: Are you, before we get into the good stuff, are you guys still doing DeFi by yourselves on your end?
Speaker: Because I do remember Mason saying that you fell in love with it and you were still in it, I think.
Speaker: What's the alpha these days?
Speaker: Like beyond Wasabi, where's the opportunity for DeFi these days?
Speaker: I've been pretty wholly focused on Wasabi.
Speaker: I'm still trading shitcoins like a normal D-gen.
Speaker: Obviously, there's some interesting protocols and DeFi protocols coming up on Arbitrum and Polygon and stuff like that.
Speaker: I've just been mainly focused on stacking ETH.
Speaker: to see what happens.
Speaker: Because I think like, like when you saw in the DeFi summer, right, there was a new protocol like every day, if not multiple protocols every day with like high yields.
Speaker: I mean, the yields just are not there because after Luna, everyone's scared.
Speaker: Like before Luna, if...
Speaker: The protocol wasn't offering over 100% return.
Speaker: Nobody was even looking at it.
Speaker: And now if the protocol is offering over 100% return, everyone considers it a scam.
Speaker: It probably is.
Speaker: So I've just kind of been chilling, seeing what people are coming out with as far as the tech goes.
Speaker: But I haven't been really yield farming or doing any of that too much.
Speaker: Just more so playing around.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: It's an interesting market to be in right now.
Speaker: You're talking about 100%.
Speaker: And when I was preparing the episode, I saw the remillionaire pool that you guys had on Wasabi that was offering 100% APR.
Speaker: How exactly does... I didn't want to get into Wasabi yet, but this just piqued my mind again.
Speaker: How exactly does that work?
Speaker: What's that pool about?
Speaker: What's the dynamic behind it?
Speaker: So the thing about our pools is it's what we like to call real yield.
Speaker: The way you earn yield does not depend on like other people purchasing a token after you.
Speaker: It is basically you just deposit your NFTs into a pool and that pool issues options on your behalf.
Speaker: And by issuing options, you collect actual premiums in the form of ETH upfront.
Speaker: And Remilio is like a very interesting collection that has a lot of fans, including our very own Mason here.
Speaker: I've heard people like to speculate.
Speaker: And as they're speculating, you're making money on your assets.
Speaker: So, OK, I'm going to do complete guesswork because you already got it.
Speaker: This is not my field and I don't understand options very well.
Speaker: But my guess right now would be that instead of you having to interact with an external marketplace or lender, people directly put the asset in one of your pool.
Speaker: And that's how the premium goes directly to them.
Speaker: instead of having to be shared?
Speaker: Is that something like that?
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: So once you put assets into Wasabi, we deploy a smart contract that only you can deposit into or withdraw from.
Speaker: So you have full control over your assets still.
Speaker: But that smart contract programmatically based on your risk tolerance issues options to the market.
Speaker: And as it issues options, you collect premiums.
Speaker: And to Aaron's point on the real yield side, when you saw these projects on like Binance Smart Chain that were offering, you know, 100, 200, 300%, like that percentage was based on the tokens you would get back from their protocol, right?
Speaker: So like pancake, like cake token or whatever.
Speaker: This is actually ETH, right?
Speaker: So that yield is determined on the amount of ETH that you've received from writing the options.
Speaker: So it's not like...
Speaker: We don't have some arbitrary token that we're just returning to you and saying that you're earning whatever percent.
Speaker: Like this is truly ETH.
Speaker: That's really cool.
Speaker: What's the risk?
Speaker: The risk is defined by you.
Speaker: If you're writing options for a collection, if you're writing puts, the risk is purchasing assets for cheap from that collection.
Speaker: And you have to determine what is the cheapest or the highest price you want to buy an NFT from that collection.
Speaker: With Kohl's, it's the opposite.
Speaker: Like if you want to sell your NFTs, what is the cheapest price you want to sell them for?
Speaker: Worst case scenario, you're going to sell them for that price.
Speaker: Best case scenario, you're going to continuously earn money on your NFTs.
Speaker: Why are...
Speaker: people who own NFTs right now not doing this more as a way to at least put them to good use?
Speaker: I think it's just like, as with all innovation, it takes a little bit of time to get the market to educate, to get them to trust the product.
Speaker: But I'm very confident that in the close future, people are going to understand the implications of WhatsApp.
Speaker: Hey there, it's me again.
Speaker: If you're enjoying the content, you're going to enjoy this because you're going to have the ability to support us.
Speaker: I want to tell you about our partner, Wasabi Protocol.
Speaker: It's an option-based protocol that allows people to make bets on certain NFT collections.
Speaker: But that's not all.
Speaker: because what is right now NFTs could be anything in the future that is tokenized.
Speaker: They are on the brink of powering one of the most important layers of the future financial markets.
Speaker: I'll give you a couple examples of how you can use it right now.
Speaker: Imagine you have an NFT that's gained a lot of value because there's been a speculative hike and you want to keep that NFT because it's dear to you, but you also want to capture some of its value.
Speaker: After it's increased a lot,
Speaker: you could bet that the price will decrease by staking a little bit of capital and capture some of that value on the way down.
Speaker: Which means that you get both of those aspects that are important to you.
Speaker: You get money, but you also get to participate.
Speaker: And the second one is, if you're convinced that a collection is gonna go up, you can bet on that by risking some capital and not the price of the whole asset if you don't have it.
Speaker: Go check it out, the links are in the description.
Speaker: wasabi.xyz slash r slash the polymath experience.
Speaker: Thank you so much for checking them out.
Speaker: And thank you so much for using that referral link.
Speaker: If you do, always do your research.
Speaker: Only use tools and amounts that you're comfortable with.
Speaker: Remember that all financial investments carry risk.
Speaker: And back to the episode now.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, we've seen the growth, right, since our launch, like we've seen it grow, our user base grow like by 300%, trade volumes increased, quitted increase.
Speaker: I really think it's partially the market, right?
Speaker: Because so many market participants have like stepped away to go touch grass or whatever they're doing while the market sits.
Speaker: The less dedicated user isn't really exploring protocols as much right now, right?
Speaker: Like even me, right?
Speaker: Like I said, I wasn't
Speaker: over there, like yield farming and stuff like this on new protocols, just because like we're focused on building or like focused on doing whatever we're doing.
Speaker: And I think that's, that's kind of market wide.
Speaker: So as the market starts to rebound and people come back, people will be looking to learn about protocols and like start earning money more.
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: Before actually jumping into the protocol, I wanted to go back to before you guys started, because you're building a really cool financial protocol, but you're also building a business in Web3.
Speaker: And I know that some people listening here are also interested in how do we, because you've done the hardest part.
Speaker: You've gone from zero to one.
Speaker: You have your product, you have users, you have backing.
Speaker: What was the, and this probably goes maybe more to Aaron, what was the first few days?
Speaker: What were the steps that you took in order to make this a reality?
Speaker: What was raising funds for such a process, for such a product like?
Speaker: All of that good stuff.
Speaker: Oh man, it was a lot of step by step work.
Speaker: You don't realize it like until you get into it.
Speaker: But most of the time, like launching something like this is always like doing a huge plan that is like very long term.
Speaker: And you need to take all the necessary right steps to like de-risk certain outcomes that you want to achieve basically.
Speaker: Like with us, we initially started by conceptualizing.
Speaker: After conceptualizing, we wrote our white paper.
Speaker: And as we were writing our white paper, like we were basically planning to build an options protocol or like derivatives protocol.
Speaker: for an asset class that was popular for the last two years.
Speaker: It just had spot trading.
Speaker: It just had like buy low and hopefully sell high.
Speaker: And a lot of the conversations we had was, oh, like this wouldn't work.
Speaker: They're not liquid enough for this to work.
Speaker: And like it was a constant like going back and forth of refining our idea and trusting in ourselves that what we were proposing made sense.
Speaker: We like ran some simulations.
Speaker: to see how a product like this would potentially perform previous market.
Speaker: And then we were able to obviously convince some investors, we were able to raise funds, we built a team.
Speaker: After building a team, building a product is important, but at the same time, your go-to-market is at least as important as your product.
Speaker: You need to keep in mind the distribution channels you will have, which Twitter accounts you will work with,
Speaker: Or are you going to give ads?
Speaker: Who are those people going to be?
Speaker: Can you work with any kind of communities to basically tap into a lot of potential users who would benefit from your product?
Speaker: We're a protocol, right?
Speaker: At first, we didn't have liquidity aggregation.
Speaker: So it would be cool.
Speaker: It's very nice to have demand, but if you don't have initial supply,
Speaker: that demand quickly goes away.
Speaker: So how do you bootstrap liquidity on your protocol?
Speaker: How do you incentivize early LPs?
Speaker: Those are all questions that we thought very hard about.
Speaker: And then we came up with solutions that really helped us
Speaker: take a step-by-step approach until we actually launched.
Speaker: And we did some test net trading competitions to build a user base first and to understand if the product was comprehensible enough, if people were able to understand how it worked.
Speaker: We were able to refine it thanks to that early user supporters.
Speaker: And slowly, we've been extending it.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: What were the decisions, the main decisions that you made when it came to your go-to market?
Speaker: What options did you dismiss?
Speaker: What options did you embrace?
Speaker: Because it's like from a founder's perspective, it's an absolute shit show because you're being promised gold left and right.
Speaker: And it's so hard to separate the actual gold from the noise.
Speaker: Yeah, I think we as a group or like as a team, like sincere people and like
Speaker: to work with people that we find similar to us.
Speaker: So having those conversations, we've had various parties approach us wanting to help us.
Speaker: And it was always a constant vetting where after meeting them, we would spend a couple of calls with them.
Speaker: We would spend some time with them.
Speaker: And most of the time, in our case at least,
Speaker: I was able to tell who was more into helping us for the potential upside rather than actually believing in the product.
Speaker: And we always went with the people who actually believed in the product.
Speaker: And I think that was the best thing we've ever done in our go-to-market.
Speaker: Like this is gold advice, especially when like in the bull market, things get crazy.
Speaker: Your DMs get flooded with people wanting to sell you something, wanting to help and you don't like it's hard.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's hard to really choose.
Speaker: But it's like you've done things well because you're surrounded by probably some of the best people that you could have in your corner.
Speaker: I'm thinking of the wizard because he's the absolute perfect person to have as a fan of your product.
Speaker: We have our magician in the cold here.
Speaker: How did that happen?
Speaker: I've known Wiz since like before crypto.
Speaker: I started following him on Instagram when I was in college because he was like a big bond trader and I was obviously in finance and I got into municipal bonds and stuff.
Speaker: So yeah, so I started following him in college.
Speaker: I think he had like, I don't know, 10,000 followers, maybe, maybe less.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And then I started to see him on Instagram.
Speaker: Like, this is like the pancake stop stuff.
Speaker: I remember him posting this stuff about yield farming.
Speaker: And it was like, you steak cake to earn syrup.
Speaker: And I'm like, what is this?
Speaker: And I'm like, what is going on here?
Speaker: But I mean, he's a smart guy.
Speaker: Like, he's making money.
Speaker: Like, I see these percentages.
Speaker: So I went and looked at it.
Speaker: And then him and I actually started trading shit coins together in Instagram DMs.
Speaker: uh before we like went into like telegram and like went fully in so i've been around he's a good friend of mine he's a great guy and yeah so like soon as we had this project i was like he's like a perfect person for this and we chatted and and he's a very very helpful
Speaker: That's so cool.
Speaker: When we were talking before, you were saying that you were looking at, you want to provide futures and derivatives.
Speaker: And I actually want to understand why, and I think people listening to this might as well, of what is the role of derivatives and futures in the market?
Speaker: Why do we need them?
Speaker: What impact do they have on the market?
Speaker: If you look at fungible tokens or non-fungible tokens, derivatives volumes are at least like 2x.
Speaker: that of the spot volume.
Speaker: And there are two reasons for that.
Speaker: Firstly, you can basically get leverage.
Speaker: And by getting leverage, you're managing your risk better.
Speaker: So like instead of paying the whole capital needed to purchase an asset,
Speaker: you're borrowing money to purchase it.
Speaker: And worst case scenario, you lose, like if the asset devalues, you lose a fraction of the upfront cost you would have paid if you bought the whole piece.
Speaker: Secondly, you're able to short the market, right?
Speaker: Like at the beginning of the call, you said you've been waiting to short
Speaker: NFTs because everything's going down.
Speaker: And without derivatives, you don't have that opportunity.
Speaker: And shorting doesn't necessarily have to be in a bad sense where like you want that asset to go down in price.
Speaker: It could also be like insurance.
Speaker: We all buy house insurance.
Speaker: And the reason for that is if any like unpredictable event happens, we want to basically hedge ourselves in the case of that event happening.
Speaker: So derivatives enable all of those.
Speaker: And then also on top of that, like if you look at like real world assets and stuff like this, right?
Speaker: Like you think like, all right, you're, you're a builder and you know, you're going to need X amount of lumber over the next, you know, six months, but you don't want to pay for it all up front and have it sitting around in a warehouse.
Speaker: Like you can, and you think it's going to go up because there's a forest fire or whatever it might be.
Speaker: Like you can buy futures, but,
Speaker: to make sure you have a set price on this asset so that when you need it, you can get it rather than like, okay, I know I need X amount of lumber right now.
Speaker: Let me fork up all the upfront cash and find somewhere to store it until I use it.
Speaker: So stuff like that, like food, oil, you see all these things have futures and people trying to bet on the price or get a better price before a conflict or something like this comes up.
Speaker: It's really cool to see the non-speculative aspect to it, the actual utilitarian view, because when you're talking about this, I'm trying to think of, okay, how does that apply to NFTs?
Speaker: And obviously the gaming use case comes up where you're a CS2 player and you're going to need this or that item and...
Speaker: you know that the price is going to go up.
Speaker: And so you could maybe go onto Wasabi Protocol and kind of lock up that price for you without necessarily doing it because you want to profit from it, right?
Speaker: Yeah, just you want to get a better price from it and you want to use it, right?
Speaker: Like think about like MMORPGs, like World of Warcraft or something like this.
Speaker: Like, you know, you're going to need iron to craft a sword, right?
Speaker: you know, whatever it might be.
Speaker: And that just adds an extra layer to the in-game economies that we've seen in Web2, right?
Speaker: And I'm very excited about that.
Speaker: I think it's going to be massive.
Speaker: It's actually mind-boggling.
Speaker: It's really hard to... When...
Speaker: Because you guys have thought about it.
Speaker: How do you think the markets will look like in, I don't know, 50 years?
Speaker: Do you think that real physical assets will, what will the value compare to online assets and the metaverse and all of this?
Speaker: Like, I think it'll always be cycles.
Speaker: We'll have the like bulls and bears and like both kinds of markets depending on the like macro economy.
Speaker: But we already have these like gaming guilds.
Speaker: All we need is a couple like very successful, very popular games for these guilds to actually like start trading more sophisticated.
Speaker: because that is going to basically give them an edge, right?
Speaker: If you can like use these resources in the best way possible, then you're going to be able to win the game as well.
Speaker: Do you think we're going to add like a layer, like an extra slot on the team?
Speaker: They'll have their, I don't know, like I don't play that many games, like their healer and their defense and then their trader.
Speaker: That's kind of... Their finance guy.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: that gaming economy expert that makes the trades and makes sure they have the best resources.
Speaker: I think some have it.
Speaker: So the way that I, like a natural progression for me, right.
Speaker: Is I played a lot of like,
Speaker: NHL and FIFA growing up, Ultimate Team specifically, which are basically NFTs.
Speaker: It's like cards that you form a team with and this and that.
Speaker: When I got tired of playing the game, some of my friends are great players, top 100 in NHL, very high-end players.
Speaker: Like they would, they would just give me their coins and then I would sit there and trade the markets for them and like help them build better teams.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because I knew how to corner the markets and knew the psychology for this.
Speaker: So I definitely think that will happen.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: A hundred percent.
Speaker: The world's about to get even crazier.
Speaker: You're going to have, like you already have kids dropping out of school to focus full time on, on video games, but it's even, it's going to become even more of a reality in the world.
Speaker: barely years to come.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker: That's nuts.
Speaker: Based on the, like, we're in the middle of the FTX trial, and so there's this, I think there's this view that's a little bit more, maybe not wary, but more scrutinous around protocols and about platforms.
Speaker: How do you fare in that?
Speaker: Like, why can you guys be trusted?
Speaker: Because I'm putting my reputation on the line here.
Speaker: How do you...
Speaker: Why do people trust you?
Speaker: So that's a very interesting question because what I think is required for people to logically trust you is very different than how governments right now legislate various protocols.
Speaker: And if the current legislation was correct, right, we would have never experienced FDX because FDX was very close with the US government.
Speaker: but they were basically using user funds for their personal needs.
Speaker: And unfortunately in the legislation, there is no like, I don't think there is anything that checks if why the user funds are used for, but that's the most important thing, right?
Speaker: Because like, if I have some user funds in the protocol and if my user wants to withdraw them,
Speaker: They should be able to at any time if they're not actively using those funds in a trade.
Speaker: That's why our traders can trust us because with Wasabi, you always have self-custody.
Speaker: So any ETH or like any token you deposit to Wasabi, if they're not used in an active trade,
Speaker: you are the sole controller of your assets.
Speaker: We have like no ability to basically take your assets and use them in other places or transfer them into our own wallets.
Speaker: So that differentiates us from most of the centralized exchanges, most of the other protocols in the space.
Speaker: How do you guys set it up?
Speaker: Do you have a pool?
Speaker: a liquidity pool for that?
Speaker: Or does each have a separated smart contract of each user have a separated smart contract or wallet?
Speaker: We let each user have their own separate smart contract.
Speaker: For example, when you're using GMX, you're doing it straight from your wallet.
Speaker: Did you guys have that conversation of going one route or the other?
Speaker: And why did you pick this one?
Speaker: So with us, like if you're purely trading, you could also pay from your wallet.
Speaker: But if you're issuing options, so like, let's say you want to earn on your NFTs, then you need to put your NFT in the protocol.
Speaker: And if you do that, or like if you want to issue put options, you need to put your ETH in protocol until someone takes the other side.
Speaker: But if your assets are free, you can always withdraw them.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: There's one thing.
Speaker: So I'm, you already know, I'm a big fan of decentralization.
Speaker: And I think that, like you were saying, Mason, that we need to put the power back in the hands of individual.
Speaker: But it's cliche, but with power comes responsibility.
Speaker: Because, and we've seen it recently,
Speaker: How many times in the past 18 months have we seen Bandal pull for bored apes on the brink of putting up 50 or 80 apes on auction?
Speaker: Because people who are not trained investors and trade traders will make mistakes.
Speaker: They will act on impulse.
Speaker: They'll be like, hey.
Speaker: hey, I have this 5K asset.
Speaker: I can put it up as collateral and get 3K to buy this other thing.
Speaker: This seems like a very, very good idea because wow, profit, free profit.
Speaker: And then it was FOMO and it was a bad idea and people are losing money.
Speaker: And so how do you guys view this balance of we embrace decentralization, we're opening up the global financial market,
Speaker: but let's make sure we don't burn ourselves in the process and our users.
Speaker: Is that something that you have in mind?
Speaker: For me personally, I'm more of the person that like, you should be able to try these things.
Speaker: And if you get burned, like you won't do it again, right?
Speaker: Like you learn the hard way, but I'd much rather have that than needing to go through a bank and like justifying every action I want to take with my own money, right?
Speaker: Coming from banking, like,
Speaker: I've seen it like where a client wants to move 10 grand, but then they have to go send a letter to the bank and say, I'm doing this to moving it over here for this reason.
Speaker: Like they have to justify every small transaction.
Speaker: And I think that's insane.
Speaker: And it's like, it's my money.
Speaker: I want to use it how I want, but I do see like education is a big part, right?
Speaker: Like we're, we're constantly trying to educate the market on different strategies and like different ways to like manage risk.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Risk management obviously is massive.
Speaker: And there is a learning curve there.
Speaker: But I've seen people that have not come from finance that have just taken the time to learn and figured it out and become wildly successful.
Speaker: It's a free market.
Speaker: That's the thing that's the most exciting to me is it's a completely free market.
Speaker: Yeah, and everything's transparent, right?
Speaker: Like in the case that you were describing, the Bandau case, Franklin is bored, who's like a popular figure, a key opinion leader.
Speaker: I guess he was bored and he decided to list some of his PAYC at like lower than floor because he knew a certain loans on Bandau were about to default.
Speaker: And if they default and if you're the first person to put a bid on the auction,
Speaker: you get, I believe, a 2 ETH reward.
Speaker: So he calculated how much he would make or how much he would end up buying those Bored Apes for if he listed his Bored Apes for a cheaper price than Floor.
Speaker: He did.
Speaker: Everyone could literally see him from his handle, from his ENS domain name, that it was him.
Speaker: But people just got scared and they decided to sell their NFTs.
Speaker: And then the NFTs and loans on Bandai went into auction.
Speaker: He put the first bids.
Speaker: He actually purchased them for cheaper than he sold his Bored Apes.
Speaker: And at the end of the day, he made a bunch of money.
Speaker: So like to Mason's point, it is great to have these tools, but you got to do your own research.
Speaker: And it is very transparent, right?
Speaker: Like it is the data is available out there.
Speaker: How much of research are you willing to do?
Speaker: Even if you're not that willing at first, once you get burned from a trade like this, then you're either going to leave the space or you're going to be more careful next time.
Speaker: Where do you guys fare on, are you like fully libertarian?
Speaker: I feel like Mason is.
Speaker: You as well, Aaron?
Speaker: I would say so.
Speaker: Like, as long as you're not touching other people's rights, I think you should be free.
Speaker: It's funny because I'm more of a libertarian myself of...
Speaker: I'd rather people can make their own choice, but I feel like there's a limit to where one should go or not to which one should go, but to put the bottom line above everything is something that I have a few problems with.
Speaker: And so I respect what Franklin did.
Speaker: in the like that's smart like you understand these protocols better than most people do and you also have the the pockets to act on those strategies but still in a sense it's like come on that's feels a bit extreme I don't know like I I don't know if it's extreme because like anything in the world right like if you're making money on something if you're making money on a trade
Speaker: you're basically putting a spread between your buy price and your sell price.
Speaker: And like most of the time that's kosher to do, right?
Speaker: So like, why should Franklin care if it's okay to put a spread between the trades?
Speaker: Yeah, fair enough.
Speaker: And one of my big things is, right, like we watched, like I know retail can learn how to do this because we watched them do this in Wall Street Pets, right?
Speaker: We watched them all sit in a forum and talk to each other and learn how financial market works and understand what a short squeeze is, understand how to buy options, understand how to do all this.
Speaker: Like they are capable if they want to do it, right?
Speaker: So that's my whole thing is like you should, if you want to do this and you're taking the risk, like,
Speaker: You should be spending your time and like learning more about it and figuring out how to risk manage and this kind of stuff because I know it's possible.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Like, I don't think the government should be like watching it, like just like protecting people that are lazy.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Like...
Speaker: If you're lazy with your money and you lose it, like that sucks.
Speaker: Like, I'm sorry to hear it, but like, you know, but like in cases of fraud, obviously like FTX, like that's not like, that's definitely a bad, bad thing.
Speaker: Like FTX should be held responsible.
Speaker: These people, like there's no way they could have managed that risk.
Speaker: Like there's a problem there.
Speaker: But as far as decentralized finance goes, like you can learn how to, how to do it all.
Speaker: If you take the time.
Speaker: I absolutely agree with you.
Speaker: And this makes me think of the fact that we're still so early in our space because what you're describing is what I consider as the core of the community, of the people we...
Speaker: who genuinely care and want to do the work in order to get money.
Speaker: Because at peak bull market, 95% of the population that's there has got here because someone told them, come here, there's easy money to be made.
Speaker: And then they make money, they lose money, most of them.
Speaker: don't, don't take the time to really figure out how exactly that happened and don't learn and go back to, to something else.
Speaker: Well, and the thing that like when I started, right, when I started on like finance smart chain and like playing with these protocols, I liked it because you needed so little upfront capital, right?
Speaker: You can go in and test out these protocols with $10 if you want, if you're on a chain with like less gas than ETH or something.
Speaker: So you can learn it for way less upfront costs as it would be to learn...
Speaker: uh in the stock market right like yeah you're on robin hood and you're trading like amd or something like that's hundreds of dollars for sure and this is more transparent and you can just like see what's going on you guys need to create an academy because with your mindset and the tool that you're that you're creating you should you should build an academy to actually teach people about that i'm asking putting it out there
Speaker: Someone just longed Refik Anadol's winds of Yawanova on wasabi.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: Which is really big.
Speaker: I don't know who did it, but like it's one of the like we had a squiggles long before, but like it's the like second time we're getting a fine art piece long through wasabi.
Speaker: And it's a big piece.
Speaker: I think it's currently at around like seven eight or so.
Speaker: Damn.
Speaker: And how did that work for a long like that?
Speaker: How much, you don't call it collateral, right?
Speaker: The premium, is that what you call it?
Speaker: The margin that they have to put up?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: How it works is we basically, we have this new product called liquidity aggregation.
Speaker: were able to originate loans.
Speaker: And these loans could be on assets you already own or the assets you want to purchase.
Speaker: So this asset in particular was listed, I believe, on OpenSea for, let's see how much, it was listed on OpenSea for almost eight ETH.
Speaker: It was 7.696 ETH on OpenSea.
Speaker: we purchased it so the trader they paid 2.6 eath up front on an 8 eath asset so that's more than 3x leverage and after paying 2.8 eath we basically paid the remaining amount purchased it from openc placed it in an in a loan on niftyfy
Speaker: And the trader has the opportunity to pay that loan back in 13 days to receive custody of the underlying asset.
Speaker: Or if there are bids higher than their breakeven price, then they could just sell into the bid in the market.
Speaker: And I think what happened was Refik Anadol yesterday, one of his pieces was purchased by MoMA, Museum of Modern Art in New York.
Speaker: And I think someone's just longing the news.
Speaker: Good for that, man.
Speaker: That's sick.
Speaker: This seems, even now that you're explaining it to me, and I'm going to ask you in a second to explain again exactly how options work, but what is the difference between doing this and just going on the platform that allows this and just press long?
Speaker: Or is it the same thing?
Speaker: You have limited downside and the platform that like, there is no other platform where you can do this.
Speaker: So like the thing is these, like, this is an NFT that is being sold on open sea for 80.
Speaker: You like this person probably is not looking to hold it long-term.
Speaker: Maybe they don't have eight ETH available.
Speaker: right now and because of that through us they have the opportunity to get exposure to the nft for only 2.6 eth instead and if they like their belief is that the price is going to increase but whatever happens right even if the price decreases a little bit they could still exercise and sell to the market
Speaker: And their loss is going to be like 0.1, 0.2 ETH in the worst case scenario.
Speaker: This is sick.
Speaker: I can't wait to see what the platform is going to look like during the next bull run.
Speaker: It's going to be insane.
Speaker: Where do I log Wasabi?
Speaker: The Wasabi Passes, maybe?
Speaker: You could buy some Wasabi Passes.
Speaker: I'm considering it already.
Speaker: I have some liquidity coming and I think it's one of the purchases.
Speaker: But if you're listening, don't front run.
Speaker: Based on the use of Wasabi these days, what are people bullish and bearish on right now?
Speaker: That's a very good question.
Speaker: Because like...
Speaker: We've had some major events in the NFT space, such as the Elementals Mint for Ozuki, D-God's reveal of Season 3, and then Pudgy Penguin's Walmart announcement.
Speaker: And also, I guess, the OnlyForce Fortnite announcement.
Speaker: And in all of those cases, we've always had open interest kind of showing where the market was going to go for that collection on Wasabi.
Speaker: We've had a lot of people coming us asking for shorts in the Ozuki case, as well as the DGods case.
Speaker: Like in DGods, actually, we had a couple of traders.
Speaker: They were like sweeping all the shorts, all the put options that we had on platform before and after the announcement.
Speaker: In Pudgy Penguin's case, we've had a good group of people longing Pudgies as well as little Pudgies.
Speaker: And at a certain point, we had an open interest of above like 150 ETH on a single day.
Speaker: We've issued, like we've originated over a hundred, over a hundred loans through partner lending protocols.
Speaker: And on top of that, we've issued a lot of options on Wasabi as well.
Speaker: So it's been very interesting to see how like these people who kind of know
Speaker: or like have a feeling of what's gonna happen, come and place their bets before the market actually realizes those bets.
Speaker: Yeah, that's really cool.
Speaker: And what we were talking about in our preparatory call, you were enlightening me on the, what synthetic assets actually are.
Speaker: And so what happens when someone comes in and longs little pudgies after the announcements, what actually happens on the market after they've put out those calls on Wasabi?
Speaker: So in a regular perpetual market,
Speaker: um like in like what we've seen so far you wouldn't be affecting the underlying market if you're longing on that perpetual protocol because it's synthetic you're trading against an index price with wasabi we're actually physically settled meaning there is the actual transaction of the underlying asset so once you come and long little pudgies or pudgies on wasabi
Speaker: What you're doing is you're getting a loan and with like that loan, you're purchasing assets from the market, from the marketplace, and then you're placing them in loans, increasing the actual spot market price of the underlying asset.
Speaker: So it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Speaker: It kind of is.
Speaker: And looking at the numbers, we've seen that
Speaker: on a couple of important days, Wasabi generated 12 to 15% of the overall daily trade volume for these assets for only 4% of the cost.
Speaker: That's nuts.
Speaker: That's nuts.
Speaker: And so if when there's a call, this is what happens.
Speaker: There's a loan, it's placed into a loan, and you do it for a fraction of the cost.
Speaker: If on the other side, you have someone that's shorting the news on Wasabi as well, do they interact with the other people's options?
Speaker: Or is it a whole other process?
Speaker: so the put options affect the market as well um you can think of put options like a stop loss order so what happens is let's like you reserve a price to sell your nfts at and if the market price drops below that price that you reserved
Speaker: You can basically buy from the market and sell into Wasabi to that reserved price that you have.
Speaker: And you pocket the difference between the market price and the put option reserved price.
Speaker: And what that enables is...
Speaker: As a savvy trader, maybe I know what the elementals drop is going to, what the effect should be on azokis.
Speaker: And I say, okay, I believe buying a put option at 8 ETH price point is good enough because I want to stop losses.
Speaker: I believe that's the fair market value for azokis.
Speaker: And let's say it drops to 4 ETH.
Speaker: What happens when I exercise my put option, I buy it from the market for four ETH, increasing the market price, and sell it for eight ETH, generating a higher sell value, which kind of rectifies the market back to where it should be.
Speaker: I see.
Speaker: And I'm on that subject.
Speaker: I'm interested, Mason, how you haven't worked on Wall Street.
Speaker: Like, how does what you guys are building compare to what exists out there?
Speaker: And how do you think those institutions will react to that type of protocol or and will or and will embrace that protocol?
Speaker: Yeah, I think so.
Speaker: Like Wall Street is obviously a lot more opaque.
Speaker: There's like, especially like if you look at GameStop, right, they were able to have a short interest like that way exceeded the amount of shares that were actually available because like,
Speaker: This person sold and then they just kept compounding the short interest and reselling shares.
Speaker: With this infrastructure, it's completely clear.
Speaker: It's completely fully collateralized.
Speaker: So you know that your trade is fine.
Speaker: I guess there wouldn't be any short squeezes in this scenario.
Speaker: So Wall Street's an interesting one because of their opaqueness, they've been able to control...
Speaker: markets forever, right?
Speaker: So like the reaction from Wall Street at first is it obviously like, I mean, we saw it with Bitcoin and the ETFs, right?
Speaker: Like there was pushback.
Speaker: They didn't really want to give in.
Speaker: It took them what Bitcoin came out in what, 2011?
Speaker: And it's, you know, it's been
Speaker: 12 years.
Speaker: And just now they're coming around to the ETFs and they understand it's not going to go away.
Speaker: I think it's going to take a little bit of time, but as they realize the benefits of like international payments and transfers and just like representing things on chain and making sure they like...
Speaker: there's not these complex backend systems of trying to track securities or track like where different assets are.
Speaker: Like everything is like on chain and like easily accessible.
Speaker: I think like they'll continue to adopt, adopt it.
Speaker: And they are doing it now.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like what is it?
Speaker: X is it like chain link is working with Swift and like,
Speaker: stuff like this, like you're seeing it, it's like going to be people love this.
Speaker: I love this phrase.
Speaker: And so do a lot of people in the space, but like, it's a little bit at once.
Speaker: And then like, suddenly everyone will come in, right?
Speaker: Like, yeah, for sure.
Speaker: It's just going to be, it's going to feel very slow.
Speaker: And then all of a sudden you're going to see an in pouring of interest from wall street would be my guess.
Speaker: Do you, is that a strategy of you guys of, of trying to get like your first institution as a, as a user of Wasabi?
Speaker: We already have some institutions, not institutions that are traditional ones, obviously, but some of our biggest LPs are like we have the biggest NFT fund to my knowledge.
Speaker: who's like a big LP who's been helping us out as an advisor as well.
Speaker: We have like blockchain native DAOs who are within themselves organizations, right?
Speaker: Who manage funds.
Speaker: We've been like lucky to have them as well.
Speaker: So we have those types of clients.
Speaker: I think it's only a matter of time.
Speaker: until more institutions and more groups realize what the potential here is, we sold another option on the same collection.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: Someone's bullish.
Speaker: Or there is some kind of news that we don't know yet.
Speaker: You'll discover after the call.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: Congrats.
Speaker: To add to that, these institutions are hiring crypto people, right?
Speaker: Like I saw before joining Wasabi, like Bank of New York was hiring a blockchain analyst.
Speaker: Like I know people at Deutsche Bank, like there is a small team there.
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: these people have teams like they're well aware like now how much do they admit that like they're willing to do this is a different story but it's it's coming right
Speaker: 100% is.
Speaker: And we're seeing it right now.
Speaker: Like there's more and more quote unquote open interest.
Speaker: At this point of the conversation, I have a few rapid fire questions that I'm going to ask.
Speaker: And I've never done it with two people.
Speaker: So what we can do is I'll ask the question and then Aaron, you start and then Mason, you can give your answer as well after that.
Speaker: If you could only buy one NFT to hold for the rest of your life, what would it be?
Speaker: Oh, that's a good one.
Speaker: I was going to say CryptoPunk.
Speaker: I was gonna as well and then I decided to be smart for a second.
Speaker: If I gave you a hundred ETH to short one NFT collection into oblivion, what would it be?
Speaker: Who do you want to make mad?
Speaker: I feel like D-Gods.
Speaker: Like, pure, pure arts-wise.
Speaker: I just don't like that.
Speaker: I get that.
Speaker: Yeah, I'd probably say the same.
Speaker: D-Gods.
Speaker: The Romilio in me wants to say Bored Avia Club, but...
Speaker: Yeah, it was one of the collections I was looking at and thinking, this is going further down.
Speaker: If you could only hold one crypto for the rest of your life.
Speaker: Ethereum.
Speaker: I know Bitcoin is gold and it's probably going to get more valuable, but I like the fact that you can build on ETH.
Speaker: Yeah, same.
Speaker: Same here.
Speaker: Smart people.
Speaker: Who are your top three people in this space who you vibe with the most?
Speaker: Interesting question.
Speaker: I'll let Mason take that one.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: I mean, I got to start with the homies.
Speaker: Like, Kuk, Kuk Capital, Wizard of Soho, obviously.
Speaker: Oh, Bob Lucas.
Speaker: I think Bob Lucas is one of the best people in the space.
Speaker: Like, he genuinely cares about the people in the space and he wants to see it grow.
Speaker: And then I got to throw in 6-5-2-9 just as a surprise fourth.
Speaker: Yeah, he's a legend for sure.
Speaker: Do you have anyone you want to add, Aaron?
Speaker: Bob Lucas for sure.
Speaker: I can't emphasize how big of a person he is in every sense.
Speaker: I think he is one of a kind when it comes to finding people in the space who are good at heart, who believe in the space, who are in here to create actual value.
Speaker: but who also have as much as influence and I guess like influence and power as he does.
Speaker: So we respect them.
Speaker: Obviously, Cook and Wiz have been detrimental for us.
Speaker: It's been amazing having them.
Speaker: I would add Spencer Ventures.
Speaker: He has great insights, like one of the smartest people that I've ever spoken to.
Speaker: It's been amazing to be able to bounce off ideas off of them.
Speaker: Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker: Gives me hope when I hear, when I ask you questions, these questions and I have these answers, like there are actually good people out there.
Speaker: What's something about you people online don't know?
Speaker: What's something about me online people don't know?
Speaker: Interesting question.
Speaker: that I have a regular life as well.
Speaker: It's not just NFTs and options for me.
Speaker: What is that comprised of?
Speaker: Do you make art?
Speaker: I used to.
Speaker: I should get into it more.
Speaker: I like to travel, like hang out with friends, dine, like drink nice stuff, go party a little bit.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: What about you, Mason?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of similar, right?
Speaker: Like in our free time, travel, go to nice restaurants, just basically experience life.
Speaker: And especially living in New York, like being able to experience different cultures and like that kind of stuff.
Speaker: I think it all comes back to like Web3, right?
Speaker: Like experiencing these cultures and like experiencing different things makes you a more well-rounded person and like more understanding of different like things going on.
Speaker: It's one of the things we forget.
Speaker: Who of three becomes life.
Speaker: All right, we're out of the rapid fire.
Speaker: If you could, we already started doing it, but if you were to explain what an option is to like a five-year-old in very, very simple words, what would it sound like?
Speaker: I would say it's a bet.
Speaker: It's a bet that you make with another counterparty on where you think the price is going of a certain underlying price.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And if you could add a layer of complexity into a little bit more about how it works?
Speaker: You basically pay a premium to reserve a buying or selling price in the future.
Speaker: I need to stick to this and wrap my head around this because I don't know what it is with options, but it gets too complicated too fast.
Speaker: The best way that, like growing up when I was taught how options work, they explained it to me using like a car lease, right?
Speaker: So you lease a car and then at the end of the lease, you have an option to buy it or to just give it back to the dealership, right?
Speaker: So if the value of the car is 26 grand and you can buy it for 25 and you can instantly sell it, like you're gonna call it to yourself, right?
Speaker: That's a call option.
Speaker: If the value of the car is 24 and you can buy it and like the purchase price is 25, you're going to give it back to the dealership.
Speaker: You're going to put it, put it on the dealership.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So that's a put option.
Speaker: That's, that's simple.
Speaker: I'm going to cut this out and watch it again a few times.
Speaker: Do you ever feel... So NFTs are people's homes.
Speaker: Like an attack on Romilia would get Mason angry and maybe an attack on motherfuckers would get Aaron angry as well.
Speaker: Like it's your homes.
Speaker: It's your digital family.
Speaker: Do you ever feel guilty that you're giving other people the ability to short that home?
Speaker: I tried to hint my idea of like homes and shorting as insurance.
Speaker: Like we're giving you the opportunity to basically hold your home base no matter how much shit is happening, right?
Speaker: Like Remilio's hit the bottom very recently.
Speaker: And let's say you hold one and you love it.
Speaker: Like you love the way it looks, but you just don't want to lose money as it's dropping in price.
Speaker: Well, what you can do is you can buy a put option.
Speaker: You can exercise it as the price depreciates.
Speaker: You still hold your Remilio, but at the same time, you're not losing money from holding it because you're shorting another Remilio in the market at the same time.
Speaker: Like at the end of the day, these are emotional assets, but they're also financial.
Speaker: So it's up to you to be like actually pragmatic about it or emotional about it is what I think.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And to my point earlier, like I learned that the hard way, right?
Speaker: Like when NFTs like first started popping off and I was buying my first collections, like I had emotional attachment to all of them.
Speaker: And I'm like, oh, like I don't want to sell on the community.
Speaker: Like I'll give an example.
Speaker: Stoned Ape Crew on Solana.
Speaker: I bought it at three Sol.
Speaker: So it was like 200.
Speaker: So I paid like 600 bucks for it.
Speaker: It went up to 10 grand.
Speaker: And I'm like, oh, like, I don't want to dump on my friends.
Speaker: I love hanging out in this discord.
Speaker: Well, now I'm not in the discord.
Speaker: I mean, I'm in the discord, but I don't check it very often.
Speaker: Like, it's become a bear market.
Speaker: Now it's down to $300.
Speaker: So like, I should have taken the 10 grand like, and I think getting deeper into the space, you realize that like, nobody really cares.
Speaker: Like if you're up a bunch of money, and you take that money, like nobody's gonna like fund you for that.
Speaker: Like at the end of the day, you're winning like the amount of money that's life changing money is different to everybody.
Speaker: You know, somebody in Indonesia, life changing money is $500.
Speaker: But to us, we're like, oh, you're selling that for $500.
Speaker: But who are we to, who are we to judge somebody that needs that money, right?
Speaker: Like, we don't know what's going on.
Speaker: So I love this.
Speaker: I love both parts, both ways to look at it.
Speaker: And the more pragmatic version as well of
Speaker: You could keep the emotional side and protect yourself from the downside, which would require you to be a good trader also.
Speaker: Like you need to understand because it's still emotional.
Speaker: And so you're still going to think it's still going to go.
Speaker: It's still going to go up.
Speaker: Made me think like, made me wonder if there could be a like,
Speaker: NFT speculation index, know where you are and, you know, like know when to go and put a put on it or put a goal on it.
Speaker: Can you add that?
Speaker: Add that layer?
Speaker: Like an interest thing?
Speaker: Like a signal box?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Yeah, like something to warn people who are not traders, hey, your assets probably overvalued.
Speaker: It's time to put a call on it, to put a put on it.
Speaker: We probably can't give financial advice.
Speaker: I kind of thought that was the way it was going to go.
Speaker: But it's a good idea.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: We're thinking of adding metrics to show open interest on certain collections, like what top traders or top holders of that collection are doing.
Speaker: And those are all good signals for you as an individual to look at.
Speaker: But as soon as we put it out there, then it's not an edge for anyone anymore.
Speaker: It's better to stay a little hidden.
Speaker: Man, this was fun.
Speaker: That's it for me for questions.
Speaker: Thank you guys for agreeing to do this.
Speaker: Do you have anything you'd like to add to people who've made it this far?
Speaker: I really appreciate the questions, the conversation.
Speaker: Thanks so much for hosting us.
Speaker: Yeah, thank you very much.
Speaker: The conversation was great.
Speaker: Yeah, glad you enjoyed it as much as I did.
Speaker: Yeah, if you made it this far, thank you.
Speaker: Thank you for coming.
Speaker: Don't forget to like, subscribe, put a comment, all the thing you hear on every single video or podcast ever because it helps a lot.
Speaker: Also, don't forget to go and check Wasabi either just out of interest or to check out something that I think will... Like the way I was describing it was...
Speaker: interviewing the founders of uh of uniswap before it becomes uniswap i think that's the scope that we're looking at and probably even more depending on the length of time you're uh looking at it so yeah thank you guys so much for coming thank you for listening and and uh i'll see you all soon thank you thank you my pleasure
