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Camille Roux, from code to canvas : Developer's path to entrepreneurship & generative art
133 Plays2 years ago
Camille is the definition of work smart, not hard. He started as a developer, became a successful entrepreneur thanks to his pragmatic approach and is now adding to his legacy in the generative art world.
He is a master of calculated risk taking, exploring and mastering new skills. Anyone can learn a lot from him.
Find Camille here:
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Transcript
Intro and Greetings
00:00:00
Speaker
All right, here we are.
00:00:02
Speaker
Thank you so much for being here.
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello, Simon.
00:00:05
Speaker
Thank you very much for having me.
00:00:07
Speaker
Yeah, my absolute pleasure.
00:00:09
Speaker
You've been a pleasure to talk to in our previous conversation, and you've been a pleasure to research.
Defining Pragmatism
00:00:18
Speaker
And when I was looking through you, there was one thing that caught my head that was a little bit out of it.
00:00:23
Speaker
But on your blog, you have three words.
00:00:27
Speaker
I think it's entrepreneur, there's another one, and then there's pragmatic.
00:00:31
Speaker
And I love that word.
00:00:32
Speaker
And I would love to hear how it ended front and center on a very important piece of your digital history.
00:00:41
Speaker
What does the word mean to you?
00:00:43
Speaker
Oh, it means a lot.
00:00:44
Speaker
I think it's probably the main thing in my life in the maybe 15 last years.
Founding a Pragmatic Company
00:01:00
Speaker
really important in my work life.
00:01:03
Speaker
I built my company 12 years ago with a friend of mine.
00:01:08
Speaker
Pragmatism was at the center.
00:01:10
Speaker
I was a lot into startup just before.
00:01:13
Speaker
The spirit was, okay, the more you work, the better.
00:01:16
Speaker
I was not okay with that.
00:01:18
Speaker
I've seen a lot of friends, entrepreneurs doing burnout.
00:01:22
Speaker
This was frightening.
00:01:24
Speaker
So I decided to find another way.
00:01:26
Speaker
I read the four hour weeks for Tim Ferriss.
00:01:31
Speaker
I don't like this book because it's not etiquette at all.
00:01:35
Speaker
But I think I never liked the answer, but I liked very much the question he asked.
00:01:40
Speaker
It was very inspiring.
00:01:42
Speaker
I just tried to find new answers to all the questions he asked and which are very good.
00:01:48
Speaker
I bought this book to my associate a few months before building the company.
00:01:56
Speaker
We have kept that in mind for a long time.
00:01:59
Speaker
It's a very, very important world.
00:02:01
Speaker
And yeah, I'm still focusing on it.
00:02:05
Speaker
I'm quite minimalist.
00:02:07
Speaker
I'm not really like to own a lot of things.
00:02:11
Speaker
I like to focus.
00:02:12
Speaker
I try to do less things, to remove things, to not to do something if I can.
00:02:18
Speaker
And I like to ask myself if I can not to do something.
00:02:24
Speaker
It's not an easy question, but I like that.
00:02:26
Speaker
In our work life, it allows us to do our company very different than the concurrent competitors, just because we had a very different
00:02:38
Speaker
different strategy because of that.
00:02:39
Speaker
Because from the very beginning, we say, okay, we are not going to work a lot.
00:02:44
Speaker
And it's a marathon, not a sprint.
00:02:46
Speaker
We have time.
00:02:46
Speaker
We are not going to work as a weekend.
00:02:48
Speaker
We create a rule between us.
00:02:52
Speaker
We have each other the right to forbid the other to participate
00:02:59
Speaker
to work like tomorrow.
00:03:01
Speaker
So if I saw my associate Tyrod, I can say, okay, you're not going to work tomorrow.
00:03:09
Speaker
I love this.
00:03:12
Speaker
I love this.
00:03:13
Speaker
I thought I was the only one doing it, but I'm the first to tell people on my team, like, take time off.
00:03:19
Speaker
Take the next week off.
00:03:21
Speaker
Take the time for yourself.
00:03:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's very good.
00:03:24
Speaker
And we are still doing that.
00:03:26
Speaker
So yeah, that's a bit what pragmatism is for me.
00:03:32
Speaker
That's really cool.
00:03:33
Speaker
A couple questions.
Ethics of Outsourcing
00:03:35
Speaker
Why is the 4-Hour Workweek not ethical?
00:03:38
Speaker
I've never read it.
00:03:39
Speaker
I know about it.
00:03:40
Speaker
I know what it's about, but I've never...
00:03:44
Speaker
everything about it.
00:03:45
Speaker
I haven't read it for a long time, but he easily reports the work to other people around him.
00:03:54
Speaker
I think most of the people in the company hate him at the end because his behavior is probably going for a fire run.
00:04:04
Speaker
He...
00:04:05
Speaker
give work to people in Madagascar or a lot of countries like that.
00:04:11
Speaker
Yeah, I don't like that.
00:04:14
Speaker
What we wanted to do is to try to have this rhythm of life, but allow every people we are working with to have the same, because it's easy to use someone to do that.
00:04:29
Speaker
And it's not just our spirit at all.
00:04:33
Speaker
We try to inspire every part of our working ways.
00:04:40
Speaker
Yeah, you're taking the questions that he asks and of how you structure your work, but you want it to be applied in a way that is more fair and that is not... The way you're describing it, his approach seems quite self-centered, selfish, focused on himself as the...
00:05:01
Speaker
Star of the show, kind of, which is also something that I hate about the CEO cult.
00:05:07
Speaker
Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
00:05:09
Speaker
So you have your view of being pragmatic.
00:05:13
Speaker
What in the trend of entrepreneurs, of digital professionals, do you think a lot of people could do?
00:05:25
Speaker
that would make them more pragmatic, that would make them more fulfilled, that would make there more... Because there's a lot of bullshit kind of trends.
00:05:33
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:05:35
Speaker
Do you have any that come to mind?
00:05:36
Speaker
There are some temptatives to that, like Lean Startup.
00:05:41
Speaker
You're maybe heard of that.
00:05:45
Speaker
It's a technique to start a startup with pragmatism.
00:05:49
Speaker
But...
00:05:50
Speaker
It's not necessarily a good reason for life either because you can work a lot and do lean startup.
00:05:59
Speaker
And so, yeah, you are going to build your startup fast, but maybe you are going to have a burnout just after and it's not good.
00:06:09
Speaker
Probably there are a lot of factors like funding.
00:06:14
Speaker
Most of the time funding gives you a lot of pressure and
00:06:19
Speaker
Most of the time it's not very good for the funder.
00:06:22
Speaker
You are less free, etc.
00:06:24
Speaker
So we decided to say no to funding and to create the company ourselves.
00:06:33
Speaker
Yeah, it's a good idea to chat with the associates and understand it's going to last a few years and it's not a weekend or a week.
00:06:46
Speaker
You have to be comfortable and have a good idea for years.
00:06:49
Speaker
Of course, it's very frightening to start a company and you want the company to start very fast and work in a short time.
00:06:58
Speaker
But most of the time, it's not the case.
00:07:01
Speaker
You have to be okay.
00:07:02
Speaker
You are going to do some pivots.
00:07:06
Speaker
You are going to start again.
00:07:08
Speaker
I don't know.
00:07:09
Speaker
A lot of things.
00:07:10
Speaker
But probably not the first plan you had.
00:07:14
Speaker
Our company is not doing what we planned at the beginning.
00:07:18
Speaker
And it's most of the times the case if you could speak with an entrepreneur.
00:07:23
Speaker
So what led
Early Career Influences
00:07:24
Speaker
you here?
00:07:24
Speaker
How did you, do you remember like the first memorable, because you've become quite successful in your various endeavor.
00:07:33
Speaker
What were your first steps where you started clicking and where you started to become the entrepreneur that you would then become?
00:07:43
Speaker
What were your early professional days like?
00:07:45
Speaker
Maybe the first one I have is the last year of engineering school in computer science.
00:07:52
Speaker
We have a few weeks project and I really like that.
00:07:56
Speaker
The teacher will say, okay, do what you want.
00:08:01
Speaker
We have a project and we can do what we want in doing in a few weeks.
00:08:05
Speaker
And we work a lot and learn a lot of things.
00:08:09
Speaker
And it's a wonderful experience.
00:08:12
Speaker
And it starts to look like what I think startup is.
00:08:15
Speaker
Yeah, it starts to be interesting.
00:08:19
Speaker
After that, I'm doing conference as a developer.
00:08:23
Speaker
It starts to be interesting.
00:08:25
Speaker
I like to teach, to share what I learn.
00:08:30
Speaker
After that, I discovered Startup Weekend.
00:08:32
Speaker
It's an international event where you play to start a startup in a weekend.
00:08:39
Speaker
I think at the time, I'm the guy who has done the most of...
00:08:45
Speaker
I don't have the record now, but 10 years ago, I had the record of the number of participation of Startup Weekend in France.
00:08:54
Speaker
Like 10 and after I became a coach and facilitator in Startup Weekend, so
00:09:01
Speaker
It's really interesting because in my school, I start to understand that entrepreneurship is not for me because nobody is speaking about entrepreneurship.
00:09:12
Speaker
Yes, it's a bit taboo.
00:09:14
Speaker
I start to understand it can be for me.
00:09:17
Speaker
I really like at this moment to be a developer for a startup, but I have a lot of frustration because I...
00:09:24
Speaker
Sometimes I see the founder have a strategy and I don't agree, but I can test mine.
00:09:31
Speaker
I just have to follow the strategy and
00:09:36
Speaker
I never know if my idea is good or not and I want to try to and Startup Weekend is a wonderful way to start that to do a lot of mistakes step by step participation after participation I let the team have more control and at the end they can do almost everything and I'm just a team member and this works very well and
00:10:04
Speaker
I'm very lucky to have this experience before starting my company because it was very inspiring.
00:10:12
Speaker
After that, I have been a CTO in...
00:10:17
Speaker
Kickstarter-like in France.
00:10:19
Speaker
And yeah, it was very interesting too to discover a more bigger company, a startup in France and understand how it works.
00:10:27
Speaker
Yeah, and after that, all of the things about three, four, four-hour workweek, et cetera, pragmatism, and try to reverse the startup spirit and the beginning of the idea to start a
00:10:43
Speaker
a non-startup company, okay, and probably do the opposite of what people do in this world.
00:10:51
Speaker
Okay, you are working a lot.
00:10:52
Speaker
Okay, I'm not going to do that.
00:10:54
Speaker
You are going to search to look for funding.
00:10:57
Speaker
Okay, I'm not going to do that.
00:10:59
Speaker
You really think for yourself.
00:11:00
Speaker
I love that about you and I could already see it before we talked or before we were getting in this conversation.
00:11:09
Speaker
The fact that you had this experience during the startup weekends of understanding so early on in your career that your team, that you're part of the team and that you should quote unquote use them or more specifically like not guide them, not direct them, but
00:11:30
Speaker
like take them by the hands and build something together.
00:11:34
Speaker
It's something that I know I struggled with for like four or five years and that a lot of other entrepreneurs struggle with as well because we see ourselves kind of like, all right, I'm the CEO, I'm the superhero, I know everything and you guys are just here to do what I say.
00:11:53
Speaker
And it says a lot about you that,
00:11:58
Speaker
you were able to realize it so early on.
00:12:01
Speaker
You were what, 20, like between 20 and 25 probably?
00:12:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:12:07
Speaker
I'm starting my company at 28, so yeah, a few years before.
00:12:13
Speaker
You seem very, very self-aware.
00:12:15
Speaker
You seem like you know yourself very well and that you can listen to yourself very well and your surroundings and how you fit in.
00:12:24
Speaker
Is that something that was always the case?
00:12:28
Speaker
Is that something that you had to actively work on?
00:12:31
Speaker
I think progressively I started to look for freedom and to remove all the constraints I can have.
00:12:42
Speaker
And it's probably really linked to pragmatism.
00:12:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think my recent life is too recent, like...
00:12:51
Speaker
10 or 20 years before.
00:12:55
Speaker
It's a research of freedom and remove the constraints that I can have.
00:13:01
Speaker
I don't like to own things I will have to repair or I don't know.
00:13:06
Speaker
I don't want to have a lot of things planned in the future.
00:13:11
Speaker
So my agenda is most of the time almost empty and I like that.
00:13:17
Speaker
I like to wake up in the morning and don't know what I'm going to do.
00:13:21
Speaker
And it's very, very important.
00:13:24
Speaker
So I can spend a lot of energy to try not to do something.
00:13:29
Speaker
I'm not sure I'm working less at the end, but it's more comfortable for me.
00:13:33
Speaker
Because if I'm comparing what you're telling me, what you're showing to myself, I've had so much friction with myself.
00:13:42
Speaker
of like learning to love myself, learning to do what I really meant to do and not what my ego tells me.
00:13:53
Speaker
And so to hear someone's story like yours where like it's happened step by steps, like you were at school and then you liked doing projects and then you did startup weekends and then you thought, maybe I can do like this for my life.
00:14:09
Speaker
And then you became an entrepreneur and it worked for you.
Philosophy of Success and Life
00:14:12
Speaker
Is there anything you could share with anyone listening to this about how to make themselves more free, about how to make their life lighter and more fulfilling and easier to live through and in a way that they're still happy and feel successful?
00:14:33
Speaker
First of all, I have to say it was not as easy people can understand with what I said.
00:14:39
Speaker
Of course, I've done a lot of mistakes.
00:14:42
Speaker
I was afraid of doing a lot of things.
00:14:44
Speaker
I don't like risk.
00:14:47
Speaker
So if my parkour looks risky, it's probably because you don't understand the situation I had at this moment.
00:14:54
Speaker
But
00:14:55
Speaker
Most of the time, it wasn't risky in my point of view.
00:14:59
Speaker
For example, when I started my company, I was sure to be able to find easily a job if the company doesn't work.
00:15:09
Speaker
And it was really easy.
00:15:11
Speaker
So funding a company was not a risk at all for me.
00:15:14
Speaker
And the only thing I will do is to have a better CV at the end and be maybe most known after the company.
00:15:22
Speaker
So no risk at all in my point of view.
00:15:25
Speaker
So it's not a risk.
00:15:27
Speaker
Secondly, I think I needed examples to make these choices because
00:15:36
Speaker
I can't have this idea like when I was at school because
00:15:42
Speaker
It was impossible for me to imagine that.
00:15:45
Speaker
For example, at school, I can think I will build the company.
00:15:51
Speaker
Everything I heard say, okay, you are a developer and you are not going to build the company.
00:15:56
Speaker
It's not for you.
00:15:57
Speaker
And I have to go in startup world and see a lot of entrepreneurs who are not very good.
00:16:06
Speaker
and be the company and be able to say, okay, maybe I can do that too because they are not much better than me.
00:16:16
Speaker
I know how to code and they all are frustrated not to be able to code.
00:16:21
Speaker
I can read the same book as them and try to do something.
00:16:26
Speaker
One thing that pops out when I think of you is transversal skills.
00:16:33
Speaker
It's skills that you learn someplace.
00:16:36
Speaker
And even though you don't use the exact same skills, some of it can be used transversely.
00:16:42
Speaker
I don't even know if that's a word into something else like you did with coding.
00:16:47
Speaker
And then you did music, which, by the way, I love your songs.
00:16:51
Speaker
And then and then now you're doing generative art.
00:16:54
Speaker
And I think there's this thing with adults where we have the curiosity.
00:17:03
Speaker
We have so many fears and so many, I don't know, like defenses and sensitivities.
00:17:10
Speaker
And we are a little bit afraid to kind of put ourselves in the shoes of someone who learns again and who has to start from the beginning.
00:17:22
Speaker
But what is fantastic about you is that you learned a lot of things through school and then through your business.
00:17:28
Speaker
And then you applied that to music and now you're applying this to music.
00:17:33
Speaker
generative art
00:17:34
Speaker
What can you say about this, about your own experience as an eternal explorer and adventurer of life and the arts?
00:17:44
Speaker
It wasn't a plant at all.
00:17:47
Speaker
It was improvised and it's just a succession of small steps.
00:17:53
Speaker
And I haven't learned to code and, I don't know, learned to play music, etc.
00:17:59
Speaker
to do Genart at the end.
00:18:01
Speaker
Of course not.
00:18:02
Speaker
I am very lucky to...
00:18:04
Speaker
be able to create the condition to have time very early in my life.
00:18:09
Speaker
and uh it's a huge privilege and i'm very lucky to to be able to do that and so i have time to learn things sometimes i spend two weeks on something and okay i doesn't like it and go to another thing and sometimes i can i can spend a year or two or three on something i like very much and dig this uh
00:18:35
Speaker
the skills or this domain as much as I can.
00:18:40
Speaker
So yeah, it wasn't a plan at all because it can be frightening if you say, okay, if I want to do like this guy, I have to have a plan on five years and be able to know where I go.
00:18:52
Speaker
No, no, it's not that at all.
00:18:53
Speaker
You're basically like a school case Buddhist because you go through life, you explore,
00:19:04
Speaker
You have fun and you don't seem to be very attached to the outcome.
00:19:10
Speaker
And so you go where your explorations go and you learn the skills that you need to learn.
00:19:17
Speaker
And like this is one of the most important life skills that anyone can have because we all tend to...
00:19:26
Speaker
We're humans and we're social animals.
00:19:28
Speaker
And so we care about what other people think.
00:19:30
Speaker
And so we create this image, this ego in our mind of who we should become.
00:19:36
Speaker
And we let that guide us.
00:19:38
Speaker
So I want to tell you about my experience as an entrepreneur.
00:19:42
Speaker
For me, as a like 24-year-old wanting to be an entrepreneur, it was all about the money, the women, and the toys for later.
00:19:51
Speaker
It was like, all right, I'm going to do this because it's going to get me there.
00:19:55
Speaker
And I was, I hated the steps, but I thought, all right, but this is, I'm going to be happy there.
00:20:01
Speaker
And so I'm going to, I'm going to do what is required, but it does seem like,
00:20:06
Speaker
to show that you care about the process, that you like the exploration, that you like the learning and the day-to-day thing.
00:20:13
Speaker
And that's like, it makes my heart tingle.
00:20:16
Speaker
It's beautiful to see.
00:20:17
Speaker
I have to say, it's not maybe as magic as you can see.
00:20:22
Speaker
Sometimes I can have a long-term goal, of course.
00:20:27
Speaker
I try not to focus too much on that because of course, it can create frustration because you can...
00:20:34
Speaker
not be able to do it, but he can create motivation.
00:20:38
Speaker
So it's a balance.
00:20:40
Speaker
Sometimes it's great to have a strong goal and sometimes, okay, maybe I have just this idea in mind, but if it does happen, he doesn't care too much.
00:20:51
Speaker
And yeah, the process is interesting.
00:20:52
Speaker
And I really try to like all the steps.
00:20:57
Speaker
Well, it's pretty apt that my next, the next thing I want to talk about is success.
00:21:02
Speaker
What's,
00:21:04
Speaker
I wanted to ask you what the word success means to you and if you feel like you've achieved it or are achieving it right now.
00:21:13
Speaker
I have to say I'm not very comfortable to be able.
00:21:17
Speaker
I had success.
00:21:19
Speaker
I'm not that much a competitor.
00:21:22
Speaker
So I'm not looking for that, I guess.
00:21:26
Speaker
I like to share.
00:21:27
Speaker
Competition is not there.
00:21:28
Speaker
Maybe it's narrow to associate success to competition.
00:21:33
Speaker
But yeah, it's not what I'm looking for.
00:21:36
Speaker
That's interesting.
00:21:38
Speaker
It's really interesting because...
00:21:39
Speaker
that you'd close on it might be narrow to associate success in competition.
00:21:47
Speaker
I think that's what we do.
00:21:49
Speaker
I think that's a society thing, our society thing of like you have succeeded if you have beat your direct competitors.
00:21:57
Speaker
And to me, you are successful from what I see of you, from like the joy you derive from the things you do, from the
00:22:10
Speaker
well, even like the objective success of your business that allows you to have freedom in all of that.
00:22:16
Speaker
And that's why I phrase it that way.
00:22:19
Speaker
Like, what does it mean to you?
00:22:21
Speaker
Because in a perfect world, we all have our own definition of success.
00:22:26
Speaker
of being free, of doing the things that we love every day, of being able to have an empty calendar, for example, like that to me qualifies as a success.
00:22:38
Speaker
And so if someone came to you right now, they're 25, they're thinking of starting a business, maybe they already have like a problem that they want to solve.
Advice for Entrepreneurs
00:22:48
Speaker
What advice do you give them?
00:22:50
Speaker
What are the, I don't know, three points or five points that any entrepreneur you think should pay really attention to that should be like their North star that guides their everyday?
00:23:02
Speaker
It depends what you want to do.
00:23:04
Speaker
If you want to do something a bit like me, probably, having in mind, it's a marathon and never a sprint.
00:23:12
Speaker
To build a company is a few years at minimum.
00:23:16
Speaker
You are going to pivot.
00:23:19
Speaker
don't have an ID in love, to be in love to an ID because it's going to change a lot.
00:23:25
Speaker
And
00:23:27
Speaker
ideas have most of the time no value.
00:23:29
Speaker
A lot of people have the same idea at the same time as you.
00:23:32
Speaker
And the only thing is the way you are working on it and the decision you are going to make.
00:23:39
Speaker
Sometimes it's a good idea to do things in another way.
00:23:44
Speaker
For example, when we start our company, the advice is to work a lot.
00:23:50
Speaker
And I'm pretty sure it's a bad idea.
00:23:54
Speaker
And of course, you have to work, but not a lot because you are going to have a burnout three months later.
00:24:01
Speaker
Your company is just not working.
00:24:03
Speaker
And it's stupid because you have no energy to work on it after that.
00:24:07
Speaker
And yeah, you're going to fail.
00:24:10
Speaker
So that's an interesting norm to question.
00:24:13
Speaker
And yeah, it's a good idea.
00:24:16
Speaker
And yeah, I like to question norms in general in my life.
00:24:20
Speaker
I love that.
00:24:21
Speaker
It is also one of the things that I say the most.
00:24:27
Speaker
I usually go back to Elon Musk's first principles thinking, take in all the data you want, but make it your own.
00:24:36
Speaker
Ask people for advice, ask them what they think, but you can't just take the advice at face value.
00:24:44
Speaker
You can't just listen to what other people say because you're going to have one person say this and another person say that and another person say that.
00:24:51
Speaker
And all of it has value only after you've processed it and made it your own because otherwise you're not being your best self.
00:25:02
Speaker
You're being their self and you're not going to be good at that.
00:25:07
Speaker
So yeah, and this is advice that can never be said enough.
00:25:14
Speaker
It will need to be repeated for this generation of entrepreneurs and five generations down the line and 10 generations down the line.
00:25:21
Speaker
I just can add this difference can create an advantage very easily.
00:25:28
Speaker
For example, our company is a training company in computer science.
00:25:33
Speaker
And most of the time, this kind of company is built by resource human people.
00:25:40
Speaker
And we had no idea about human resource because it's not our culture at all.
00:25:45
Speaker
And it wasn't the first plan to build a training company.
00:25:48
Speaker
So no idea of how it's working.
00:25:51
Speaker
So...
00:25:52
Speaker
no idea of what people are doing to communicate to... Okay.
00:25:57
Speaker
So we did on our own and like the model we have with startup.
00:26:03
Speaker
So...
00:26:05
Speaker
web, social hacking, some stuff like that.
00:26:09
Speaker
And in fact, we discovered later that companies in this world are used to send paper catalog, very big paper catalog to a lot of companies.
00:26:21
Speaker
And we never thought about that because it's not our culture.
00:26:25
Speaker
And so just because we are different, we did a lot of things differently.
00:26:30
Speaker
Because we did a big pivot before we had the idea to create a training company, we were working on a kind of job boards and it was needed to create communities.
00:26:47
Speaker
And so we have now, this doesn't work.
00:26:52
Speaker
And so now we have a training company with strong communities on the web and it's quite unique.
00:26:58
Speaker
It wasn't the plan at all.
00:26:59
Speaker
Yeah, man, I actually appreciate that you brought this back into my life.
00:27:03
Speaker
I haven't followed too much.
00:27:06
Speaker
I was obviously here for like the early days of generative art.
00:27:10
Speaker
And so I experienced it from a spectator point of view.
00:27:16
Speaker
But you coming back to it reminded me of my days playing with P5GS and all that stuff.
00:27:23
Speaker
So that was really nice.
00:27:24
Speaker
I would love to... One of the really interesting things that you started to mention during our introduction conversation was about networking and gatekeeping in art, which is something that I had also been introduced to in a video.
00:27:44
Speaker
where basically a group of people observed a lot of data with regards to the art world and with artists' journeys.
00:27:56
Speaker
And they identified that, of course, the skill and the quality of the art you create matters.
00:28:04
Speaker
But the defining component that would dictate an artist's success
00:28:11
Speaker
It's pretty much who they know and who they meet along the way and the doors that it opens for them.
00:28:19
Speaker
And it's something that you seem to have some experience with.
00:28:22
Speaker
And I would love for you to explain what the process has been like for you.
00:28:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's interesting.
00:28:31
Speaker
I'm not aware of this TV, but it looks interesting.
00:28:35
Speaker
It kind of reflects what I can see.
00:28:38
Speaker
I have a weird journey in art because I'm coming from entrepreneurship and coding.
Journey into Generative Art
00:28:46
Speaker
And I have no idea about art when I start.
00:28:50
Speaker
I don't care about art history.
00:28:54
Speaker
I don't care about museums.
00:28:57
Speaker
And yeah, it was two years ago.
00:28:59
Speaker
And yeah, so art means nothing.
00:29:03
Speaker
I like to play music.
00:29:05
Speaker
I'm playing guitar.
00:29:07
Speaker
I publish some track on Spotify just to have fun.
00:29:12
Speaker
But that's all.
00:29:14
Speaker
Almost two years ago, I wanted to learn to draw with a pen and a paper, simply.
00:29:23
Speaker
I like to be off the screen, to be off the computer and just to go on a coffee and draw something, to be able to do something.
00:29:32
Speaker
So I'm going to ask an artist friend to teach me and she starts to teach me how to draw.
00:29:40
Speaker
I see I have no skills in that and I have everything to learn.
00:29:46
Speaker
But quickly, I want to do geometry because I love math and
00:29:51
Speaker
There I have skills.
00:29:53
Speaker
So I start to see, okay, if I do something with geometry, I can do something more easy than trying to draw some animals or something like that where I have no skills at all.
00:30:05
Speaker
So quickly, I have a problem.
00:30:07
Speaker
I'm very bad to draw some stuff with my hand.
00:30:10
Speaker
So I migrate to Procreate and an iPad because it's easier to draw perfect sequence.
00:30:20
Speaker
But at that time, I said, OK, but what about drawing, I don't know, 100 circles?
00:30:27
Speaker
And my friend said, OK, I don't know how to do that.
00:30:31
Speaker
So quickly, I immigrated to Vector program and then to P5, a library, you know, P2L, very used in GenArt.
00:30:40
Speaker
We can describe it for non-developer people as a Microsoft Paint with code, something like that.
00:30:49
Speaker
Most of the function you have is something you have in Paint, so you can just draw simple stickers, rectangles, etc.
00:30:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's very simple.
00:30:58
Speaker
And...
00:31:00
Speaker
A big part of the Gen Art, you can see, is done with that anyway.
00:31:05
Speaker
I'm playing with that.
00:31:07
Speaker
So first of all, in Ikeknunk on Tezos.
00:31:10
Speaker
Then I discovered very early Epic Sash.
00:31:14
Speaker
It's where I'm discovering Gen Art.
00:31:19
Speaker
And I don't know if people know what is Gen Art, but maybe you can explain it with a seed and random, etc.
00:31:27
Speaker
Because random is very important in Gen Art.
00:31:31
Speaker
in Gen.Alt.
00:31:31
Speaker
I like the direction you were going in and if you can eventually go back to the networking part, because I'm really intrigued by that, then it's perfect.
00:31:40
Speaker
And we can definitely talk about... I'll talk to a kid's next time.
00:31:44
Speaker
Yeah, please do.
00:31:46
Speaker
Please do.
00:31:46
Speaker
But it eventually, like your journey eventually leads there because you're dropping a collection with a very important player in this space.
00:31:56
Speaker
And so you have experienced this firsthand.
00:32:00
Speaker
And yeah, after, if you want, we can take a minute to explain exactly what...
00:32:04
Speaker
generative art is?
00:32:05
Speaker
A few months after I start to learn to draw, I'm focusing on gen art, so it's at the end of the year tenure run.
00:32:16
Speaker
And GenArt is the idea of working on the script called Generator and you put it on the blockchain and people can meet additions.
00:32:29
Speaker
Most of the time, the number of addition is defined as in the contract at the beginning.
00:32:35
Speaker
And when someone mint an edition, the edition is generated on demand with information in the transaction.
00:32:46
Speaker
So it's a surprise for the collector and also for the artist.
00:32:51
Speaker
As artist, of course, I can generate as many editions as I want to test my script, but I don't know which edition is going to be dropped.
00:33:01
Speaker
And in GenArt, we are used to use a lot of randoms, so colors are random, shape, random position, etc.
00:33:10
Speaker
So there are so many randoms and you can guess what is going to happen.
00:33:14
Speaker
It's not just like dice or sometimes six is going to happen.
00:33:18
Speaker
No, it's more complex than that, so you can guess what is going to happen.
00:33:22
Speaker
Most of GenArt are coders, mathematicians, physicians, or some people like that.
00:33:28
Speaker
It's what I like.
00:33:30
Speaker
And so, yeah, I start to do
Networking in Generative Art
00:33:32
Speaker
that.
00:33:32
Speaker
And yeah, network is start to be important at that moment.
00:33:37
Speaker
Not all the time because the last platform where I dropped is a blind curation.
00:33:45
Speaker
So they don't know the name.
00:33:47
Speaker
So network is probably quite through place directly.
00:33:52
Speaker
But in fact, a network can help in a way to understand what the platform expects.
00:33:58
Speaker
So it may be important, but not that much in this platform.
00:34:01
Speaker
And we could talk about that later.
00:34:05
Speaker
But in some platform, the name can be important because, of course, if a big platform assigns a big artist, there is going to be some hype on the project and this is important.
00:34:19
Speaker
It's very hard to understand how useful is networking in art.
00:34:27
Speaker
because sometimes you can see something very famous, have success with PCs, which are very interesting to see why they are nice or I don't know.
00:34:41
Speaker
The opposite is also, we can also see the opposite, some unknown people having a lot of success.
00:34:50
Speaker
So it's not impossible at all and you have to find your way.
00:34:54
Speaker
But yeah, probably it can help in a way because you have to, yeah, I don't know if I know artists, I can maybe expect some artists to say, okay, I will buy your work at the drop.
00:35:10
Speaker
And it's very interesting to see, to show that and collector maybe will buy my art because these famous artists will buy it, etc.
00:35:19
Speaker
So,
00:35:21
Speaker
Yeah, it can be, it can happen.
00:35:25
Speaker
You see it very specifically and very clearly in the NFT space because influencer marketing is predominant.
00:35:36
Speaker
And you have one person tweeting that they will participate in this or that drop and then everyone rushes to it without even questioning it.
00:35:48
Speaker
it's like a badge of, all right, you've been already validated.
00:35:51
Speaker
And so this gives, this gives me, this gives me value.
00:35:56
Speaker
If you were to start, same question as for the entrepreneur.
00:36:01
Speaker
If you were to, if someone listening to this wants to get started with generative art, where should they start?
00:36:08
Speaker
Like what is the least effort,
00:36:12
Speaker
road to making your first generative art piece?
00:36:16
Speaker
So maybe same answer.
00:36:18
Speaker
There are a lot of ways to start in GenArt and you have to find your way.
Beginners in Generative Art
00:36:23
Speaker
If you want to have a similar way as mine,
00:36:27
Speaker
Probably the easiest way is to learn P5.
00:36:31
Speaker
Start on FXH.
00:36:33
Speaker
It's a wonderful platform to start because it's open quite easy.
00:36:37
Speaker
Discord is active.
00:36:39
Speaker
Lots of projects.
00:36:40
Speaker
You don't need a community because if you are doing something great,
00:36:45
Speaker
you should be able to sell at a not too bad price and test.
00:36:52
Speaker
It's very okay to fail and try again.
00:36:55
Speaker
So you can have two bad projects and someone is going to work and people don't care.
00:37:00
Speaker
The two first are bad.
00:37:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's probably a very good way to start.
00:37:06
Speaker
Ecosystem is changing a lot currently, and we can see new open platform currently, like Albar 256 Art.
00:37:16
Speaker
So now we have many ways to start, and that's better because you have choice, and you can just chat with this platform and see which one is the best for you.
00:37:27
Speaker
P5M, Epixash, or any platform is okay.
00:37:32
Speaker
Where do you draw your inspiration from your art?
00:37:37
Speaker
What is a way that you have to get inspired?
00:37:39
Speaker
An idea came, not from me, from an artist who was forwarding me, Nuderut.
00:37:48
Speaker
He gave me an advice to draw the line between the original position of the dot and the final position of the dot.
00:37:58
Speaker
And it starts to look like fur.
00:38:01
Speaker
I like this very much.
00:38:04
Speaker
Yeah, the project take a very new direction at that time.
00:38:07
Speaker
And yeah, it was very interesting.
00:38:09
Speaker
Yeah, it's a research like that.
00:38:12
Speaker
In my last test project, it was a collaboration with Mathieu Segrès, also the associate of the company we spoke before.
00:38:21
Speaker
Is that the one dropping in July?
00:38:23
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:25
Speaker
Okay.
00:38:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:27
Speaker
Let's hold off on this one because it's like the most important thing.
00:38:31
Speaker
We have to create some sort of a cliffhanger.
00:38:34
Speaker
And we'll link to it in the description.
00:38:40
Speaker
What's your favorite piece that you've created and what was the process for it and what does it look like now?
00:38:47
Speaker
And if you have a link right now for me so I can check it out and so we can link it later, that would be awesome.
00:38:54
Speaker
Okay, if I have to show you my best work, in my opinion, really hard to say because every project has a different meaning.
00:39:03
Speaker
Probably if we don't speak about the new one, one of the most interesting aesthetically was Folarder.
00:39:11
Speaker
Bridge, because it's
00:39:14
Speaker
It was very unique because it's currently still the biggest collaboration project on FXH.
00:39:24
Speaker
We were 25 artists to participate.
00:39:27
Speaker
I just dropped a simple project on GitHub and asked the developer, okay, implement your style.
00:39:34
Speaker
Here is the class you have to fill.
00:39:38
Speaker
And if it's working and not too bad, I will publish it in the project in
00:39:44
Speaker
I think the delay was very short and probably it was a mistake like 10 days or 15 days.
00:39:51
Speaker
Very short.
00:39:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:54
Speaker
It was stupid, but okay.
00:39:57
Speaker
And in fact, many more people as expected participate.
00:40:02
Speaker
In my mind, okay, maybe we'd be three or four and that's fun.
00:40:07
Speaker
And we were 25.
00:40:09
Speaker
Yeah, I met a lot of people with this project and it
00:40:13
Speaker
Yeah, it was very nice.
00:40:16
Speaker
And you can see a lot of very different styles, even if every artist had the same constraints at the beginning.
00:40:27
Speaker
That's very interesting.
00:40:28
Speaker
Everyone has to draw a bridge, and it's very interesting to see what people did.
00:40:33
Speaker
And I can also speak about Entrykada.
00:40:36
Speaker
It's a drop I did with Bright Moments.
00:40:39
Speaker
It's a platform I like a lot.
00:40:42
Speaker
And they love to make the drop physical in real life.
00:40:50
Speaker
And so they create events all around the world for the drop.
00:40:56
Speaker
And they did an event in New York.
00:41:01
Speaker
So I was the artist of the month in March 2023.
00:41:08
Speaker
for Black Boman and they did a huge event in New York in the Lume studio.
00:41:13
Speaker
There are screen projector on all the wall and on the floor.
00:41:19
Speaker
And yeah, so people are emerged in my work.
00:41:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's really fantastic.
00:41:26
Speaker
When I walk on my computer, I all the time see my walk, I don't know, like 30 centimeters of height.
00:41:36
Speaker
And okay, I see the picture and okay, my walk is projected on, I don't know, five meters wall.
00:41:43
Speaker
Okay, it wasn't expected at all.
00:41:45
Speaker
And so it was a very nice surprise.
00:41:48
Speaker
And yeah, I love that.
00:41:50
Speaker
Yeah, I saw the pictures, I think, and it's really impressive.
00:41:56
Speaker
Because that's one of the problems with generative art, where it's not easy to consume, and it's not easy to consume in a way that respects the time and effort that went into it for the artist.
00:42:11
Speaker
And so being in your position, having that event,
00:42:17
Speaker
where people are actually in your art, a part of it, it must have been a crazy experience for you as an artist.
00:42:26
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:42:28
Speaker
And in fact, yeah, it's a big problem to know how to consume art.
00:42:33
Speaker
And yeah, you can print it, but you can do that if the piece is animated or in 3D or I don't know.
00:42:41
Speaker
And you can watch it on the screen or on your computer, but you can put it as a screensaver or wallpaper on your screen, but I don't know.
00:42:52
Speaker
You can sometimes buy a frame with a screen inside, but
00:42:59
Speaker
It's not a very mature technology yet.
00:43:02
Speaker
So it's not easy to connect to your NFT wallet.
00:43:06
Speaker
Most of the times they don't have a strong graphic card.
00:43:10
Speaker
So the only thing you can do is to display image.
00:43:13
Speaker
Sometimes video is quite consuming in terms of energy.
00:43:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's not an easy thing.
00:43:21
Speaker
And I hope people will do some innovation in this space too.
00:43:28
Speaker
to proceed to the date set.
00:43:30
Speaker
All right, let's talk about the drop.
00:43:32
Speaker
So the date is 31st of July?
00:43:35
Speaker
Yeah, it should be that.
00:43:36
Speaker
And at the beginning of August.
00:43:40
Speaker
Okay, tell us about this.
00:43:41
Speaker
Tell us about that
Upcoming Art Project Details
00:43:42
Speaker
process.
00:43:42
Speaker
So process, after talking a lot to my friend and associate Mathieu, he started quickly to play with P5 and try to generate Genetive Art 2.
00:43:57
Speaker
And
00:43:58
Speaker
At the time, I really wanted to, I don't know, to do a big project and like, okay, now I've learned a lot and I have to do the best I can do.
00:44:11
Speaker
And probably it was a good idea to do that with a friend.
00:44:16
Speaker
Okay, so...
00:44:18
Speaker
Okay, we have a better chance if we are two on that.
00:44:21
Speaker
Okay, let's do something.
00:44:25
Speaker
The best thing we can do, both of us, let's see where it's going to go.
00:44:32
Speaker
So we started on July 31st last year.
00:44:36
Speaker
So if the drop is still at this date, it will be at the anniversary of the start.
00:44:44
Speaker
So it was a very long journey.
00:44:46
Speaker
Yeah, so as a start, we had to decide what to do.
00:44:52
Speaker
Mathieu, at this moment, wanted to have something that looks physical and play with texture, with realism, etc.
00:45:01
Speaker
And at that time, I would like to play with geometry.
00:45:04
Speaker
And a few months after I'm learning shaders, it's...
00:45:10
Speaker
something different than p5 and it's a language spoken by your graphic card when i learned that i say okay we have to integrate shader in our work because it's going to help us a lot to to do everything we want and yeah we are used to to work together so
00:45:32
Speaker
Of course, we are going to be able to do that without argument.
00:45:38
Speaker
It's not a problem.
00:45:40
Speaker
We are used to do that.
00:45:43
Speaker
We started like that.
00:45:44
Speaker
Quickly, we are trying to emulate watercolor painting.
00:45:52
Speaker
It's a nightmare if you are thinking to simulate watercolor with Microsoft Paint.
00:45:58
Speaker
And the first thing we are trying to do is to simulate it drawing a lot and a lot of triangles, almost transparent.
00:46:08
Speaker
And the effect is pretty good.
00:46:11
Speaker
It's a technique developed by Tyler Ops and you can find a nice blog post on his blog.
00:46:18
Speaker
We are trying to fill a simple grid with a pen on the side and fill each cell with watercolour.
00:46:26
Speaker
And a bit by mistake, we apply something we call domain warping.
00:46:31
Speaker
It's an effect that, I don't know, adds distortion in the image and moves a little bit everything.
00:46:40
Speaker
it's not that bad at all.
00:46:42
Speaker
And it's not the plan because the plan is maybe to try to fill the cell by something, I don't know, with a white pen and try to draw something in the cell on the watercolor is the plan.
00:46:54
Speaker
But yeah, with domain warping, it looked like water.
00:46:58
Speaker
It looked very organic and
00:47:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's not the plan, but we start to like that.
00:47:05
Speaker
And yeah, we submitted the product to some platform with one platform in mind, GM Studio, because I love the curation.
00:47:14
Speaker
It's very premium.
00:47:17
Speaker
I think it's maybe the only one platform where I love all the projects they dropped.
00:47:23
Speaker
I love the curation.
00:47:26
Speaker
It's blind most of the time, so the curation panel don't know the name of the artist.
00:47:34
Speaker
And I love that.
00:47:35
Speaker
It's very unique in the ecosystem.
00:47:36
Speaker
Most of the time, they can check Twitter, etc.
00:47:39
Speaker
And of course, like we said before, maybe the networking can help.
00:47:44
Speaker
And with James Chido, it's blind.
00:47:46
Speaker
So if you're famous or unknown, you have
00:47:50
Speaker
probably the same change.
00:47:51
Speaker
We are the first project where all the members of the curation panel say yes.
00:47:57
Speaker
It's the first time in the history of GM Studio.
00:48:01
Speaker
And yeah, we are very happy with that.
00:48:03
Speaker
So the drop will happen the 31st of this month if everything goes as I know at the recording time.
00:48:13
Speaker
And we are very, very, very happy with that.
00:48:16
Speaker
That must be such a
00:48:19
Speaker
Again, like we're not doing it for the accolades.
00:48:22
Speaker
We're not doing it for the results, but seeing something that you've worked on for one year, being so wholeheartedly welcomed to a platform that means so much to you, man, congratulations.
00:48:35
Speaker
That's amazing.
00:48:37
Speaker
Thank you very much.
00:48:39
Speaker
It was a lot of pressure because we are in a beer market.
00:48:45
Speaker
Um,
00:48:46
Speaker
I don't know if it's a good idea to spend a year currently to work in a project.
00:48:50
Speaker
Did you have fun?
00:48:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:53
Speaker
Then it was a perfect idea.
00:48:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:56
Speaker
You're right.
00:48:57
Speaker
You're right.
00:48:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:58
Speaker
We, we learned, we both learned a lot because it was very interesting to, we are different.
00:49:04
Speaker
We have different skills, different way to work.
00:49:08
Speaker
And the mix was very interesting because we don't focus on the same thing.
00:49:12
Speaker
And the mix of that, it was very interesting.
00:49:14
Speaker
and we know how to communicate because we have been friends for a long time.
00:49:20
Speaker
It was a big challenge because there are not a lot of platforms where it's a good idea to work a year to do that.
00:49:32
Speaker
And it could happen that no platform, no, I don't know, let's say premium platform or something like that.
00:49:40
Speaker
It could happen that no premium platform accepts us.
00:49:44
Speaker
Yeah, it was a risk during the war time.
00:49:50
Speaker
Yeah, man, that's such a great turn of events.
00:49:55
Speaker
I feel like this is the perfect place to kind of wrap up this conversation.
00:50:02
Speaker
Can you give us the last details of the drop, July 31st?
00:50:08
Speaker
GemStudio, how many editions will there be and what will be the price, I think, are the most important criteria.
00:50:16
Speaker
Maybe the information I'm going to give are not accurate because it's not absolutely defined yet.
00:50:25
Speaker
But currently, we are on 300 editions.
00:50:30
Speaker
The price will be a fair Dutch action from maybe $4.
00:50:35
Speaker
is to.25.
00:50:38
Speaker
I hope everything sells at 4.
00:50:40
Speaker
That would be the perfect way to cap this up and you can move on to the next one.
00:50:50
Speaker
Man, I've already thought like a few times I want to get back into p5.js, which is really hard because I don't code.
00:50:58
Speaker
So I'm not just learning p5, I'm also learning JavaScript.
00:51:01
Speaker
So it's a tricky one.
00:51:03
Speaker
and learning the tools and I was stuck with, like I was using Bracket, I think, and I was stuck with it, couldn't like put out the thing.
00:51:11
Speaker
So, but now you've inspired me to restart again and I hope that other people are inspired as well.
00:51:19
Speaker
Yeah, thank you.
00:51:19
Speaker
Yeah, maybe this one will be on Netflix very soon.
00:51:23
Speaker
Who knows?
00:51:24
Speaker
Who knows?
00:51:25
Speaker
It would be possible.
00:51:26
Speaker
I've already thought of doing a few illustrations because I have these concepts that form as visual things and I want to maybe use Adobe Illustrator or maybe Procreate to kind of put them into form.
00:51:42
Speaker
But yeah, I would love to one day...
00:51:45
Speaker
be able to create a generative art collection.
00:51:50
Speaker
That is definitely a bucket list item and I think you've put me back on the path for it.
00:51:55
Speaker
You can maybe have a step just playing with what we call creative coding and you don't have to
00:52:04
Speaker
necessary to play with random or which add some difficulties and just create something quite nice with with p5 and this you can you can drop this on on tether on object or the yard or on srm on
00:52:24
Speaker
SuperRound Foundation or some platform like that.
00:52:28
Speaker
And it's already a thing.
00:52:30
Speaker
The market is not a lot on that, so probably you're not going to sell that a lot, but it's a good start and it's maybe a good step because random creates a new complexity because you have to manage.
00:52:46
Speaker
You can see all the additions, so you have to predict all the special case that can happen and avoid them.
00:52:54
Speaker
Most of the time, artists generate like thousands of editions to be sure it's okay.
00:53:01
Speaker
But surprise can still happen.
00:53:03
Speaker
And there are a lot of stories like that in the space.
00:53:08
Speaker
That's a very good idea.
00:53:09
Speaker
Would you use...
00:53:13
Speaker
the P5 editor or, or would you go the extra step of having your own, like you need to set up the server and having your own, uh, software on the computer?
00:53:25
Speaker
I don't know.
00:53:25
Speaker
It depends of your level, but if you are a beginner, the editor is, uh, a lot.
00:53:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:53:32
Speaker
It's enough for, for, for a long time.
00:53:35
Speaker
You are not going to, to, to, to write a lot of, uh, a lot of the thing.
00:53:39
Speaker
Um,
00:53:41
Speaker
AI are not too bad to create P5 code.
00:53:45
Speaker
So you can also use ChatGPT or some technology like that to create some piece, some part of the code.
00:53:53
Speaker
They are pretty good to, I don't know, you have to, you can say to ChatGPT, please create, I don't know, 100 rectangles, which are red and red.
00:54:06
Speaker
I don't know, placed on the grid and they know pretty well how to do that.
00:54:11
Speaker
So...
00:54:13
Speaker
You can find inspiration.
00:54:15
Speaker
And P5 is very good to learn on the website.
00:54:17
Speaker
There are a lot of books, a lot of resources to learn.
00:54:21
Speaker
You can also check on a website named Open Processing.
00:54:24
Speaker
It's very similar to the P5 editor.
00:54:27
Speaker
And you can access to the code of a lot of interesting artwork, all in P5 most of the time.
00:54:36
Speaker
And you can check the code and find inspiration.
00:54:40
Speaker
And yeah, that's a very good start.
00:54:42
Speaker
Thank you so much.
00:54:43
Speaker
I end this feeling inspired and with a clear path ahead of me.
00:54:48
Speaker
So thank you so much.
00:54:49
Speaker
Is there anything else?
00:54:50
Speaker
Perfect.
00:54:51
Speaker
Is there anything else you'd like to add to this?
00:54:55
Speaker
We have spoken about a lot of things, so it's hard to find a conclusion about that.
00:55:01
Speaker
It was a pleasure to share that.
00:55:03
Speaker
And
00:55:04
Speaker
Yeah, if it can be interesting for the listeners, it's awesome.
00:55:09
Speaker
I guess most of the people who are listening are in Reps 3 and maybe most of them are aware about GenArt.
00:55:16
Speaker
So let's check the source project on Jamestudio.
00:55:21
Speaker
At the time of the publishing of this podcast, you should be able to find lots of blog posts about this project on our blog.
00:55:32
Speaker
So if you want to know more about the journey or some technical aspect, you will find more information about that.
00:55:40
Speaker
So it's easy to find my Twitter and check my blog.
00:55:45
Speaker
And so, and yeah, thank you very much for having me.
00:55:48
Speaker
It's a pleasure to listen to the previous, it was a pleasure to listen to the previous episode of this podcast and I'm very grateful to, to be there today.
00:55:57
Speaker
So thank you very much for having me.
00:55:59
Speaker
Thank you, man.
00:56:00
Speaker
Thank you for, I really appreciate you taking the time and, and,
00:56:06
Speaker
Yeah, doing the effort of coming on and giving me this shot as well, because you've seen we're just getting started.
00:56:15
Speaker
We're only a few episodes in, and you still agree to do this wholeheartedly and with a huge smile on your face.
00:56:21
Speaker
So thank you.
00:56:25
Speaker
The Universe Sings