Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Is Dubai the blockchain hub of the world ? With Teneight
125 Plays2 years ago
Teneight is a Dubai resident who started out as a financial fraud investigator. He's currently consultant for a top 4 consulting firm and building a business on the side. He's fascinated by community and wants to help people connect throughout the world with Collider.
He's also been a very active community member of some major movers in the web3 space ! Let's get to know him.
Find TenEight here: https://x.com/teneighteth
The Polymath Experience is a podcast owned by its listeners, join us here to be rewarded : https://discord.gg/PwYt39W95k
Recommended
Transcript
Excitement and Curiosity about First Conversations
00:00:00
Speaker
Mr. Ten-Eight, how are you doing, man?
00:00:02
Speaker
Good, good.
00:00:03
Speaker
How are you?
00:00:04
Speaker
This has been a long time coming.
00:00:05
Speaker
How's it going?
00:00:06
Speaker
Yeah, man.
00:00:07
Speaker
The buildup has been intense.
00:00:12
Speaker
We'll be right back.
00:00:20
Speaker
Yeah, I've really been looking forward to... I mean, I've had great guests.
00:00:24
Speaker
Don't get me wrong.
00:00:25
Speaker
If you guys are listening, don't blame me.
00:00:27
Speaker
But yeah, this one was an interesting encounter.
00:00:31
Speaker
Finally, someone in the same vibe wanting to...
00:00:35
Speaker
It just gets to know each other on podcasts.
00:00:38
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:00:40
Speaker
I mean, when we spoke first, actually, this is the first time we're speaking, which is all the more incredible.
00:00:46
Speaker
And that was exactly what we connected with, right?
00:00:49
Speaker
The fact that our first conversation...
00:00:52
Speaker
not just you and me, but with anybody, right?
00:00:55
Speaker
As long as it clicks is such a powerful experience.
00:00:59
Speaker
It's almost that ink in a glass of water because the next drop of ink you put in doesn't have the same impact.
00:01:08
Speaker
It's just that first one.
00:01:10
Speaker
has all that impact just spreads around.
00:01:12
Speaker
And that's what I've always found First Conversations fascinating.
00:01:16
Speaker
And I always thought that First Conversations make excellent podcasts.
00:01:20
Speaker
And turns out like that's exactly what you do.
00:01:25
Speaker
I've spoken to quite a few podcast hosts.
00:01:29
Speaker
And yes, I mean, they all enjoy and they're excellent hosts.
00:01:32
Speaker
But someone thinking in the manner that I was, I just came across you.
00:01:37
Speaker
So it's brilliant.
00:01:39
Speaker
I'm glad this is finally happening.
00:01:41
Speaker
Yeah, me too, man.
00:01:42
Speaker
I love this way of looking at it.
00:01:44
Speaker
I've never, I've always loved those first conversations, but I've never put it in such a poetic manner.
00:01:51
Speaker
The first few interactions that we've had, they've always, they've, they've led me to that thing of, all right, this guy is very special.
Impact of First Interactions and Key Life Moments
00:01:58
Speaker
Like there's something, there's something that's very special about you.
00:02:02
Speaker
And, and,
00:02:03
Speaker
Like there's a few personality traits that even through text that I've been able to identify, but not even from an objective perspective, but what's been your experience in life?
00:02:12
Speaker
Like what have been like some of the key moments that have turned you into the human being that you are today?
00:02:19
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:02:20
Speaker
That's a loaded question.
00:02:21
Speaker
I mean, that just calls back so many different things.
00:02:26
Speaker
But look, I'll be honest.
00:02:27
Speaker
It's funny because when I think back to my early days, my school days, right?
00:02:32
Speaker
I wasn't the it crowd.
00:02:35
Speaker
I wasn't the cool kid or whatever it be, right?
00:02:38
Speaker
I just kept to my circle.
00:02:42
Speaker
Even now, I think many years later, I still do that.
00:02:45
Speaker
You know, I don't have this large group of friends I hang out with.
00:02:48
Speaker
I just like to keep it small, speak to the people that I gel with.
00:02:52
Speaker
But through the process and then definitely through my career, I realized that I enjoy speaking with people.
00:02:59
Speaker
right?
00:03:01
Speaker
It makes me so happy to speak to someone and almost peel off the layers that they have that has been built over all these years, right?
00:03:13
Speaker
I'm trying to understand why a person is who they are, why they think what they do,
00:03:20
Speaker
why they do what they do right that sort of curiosity I I don't know where it comes from maybe it has to do something with the fact that I always wanted to be a fraud investigator and that is was my career in a way so it was always about like
00:03:35
Speaker
trying to learn people, right?
00:03:37
Speaker
Trying to understand people.
Understanding People through Analysis and Empathy
00:03:39
Speaker
And, you know, there's this thing called micro expressions.
00:03:41
Speaker
I don't know if you've seen this.
00:03:44
Speaker
There's this series, an English series called Lie to Me, where they analyze micro expression, literally a slight twitch in your eyebrows or a slight twitch in your lips.
00:03:54
Speaker
could show that you're nervous or excited, right?
00:03:58
Speaker
Which makes so much sense.
00:04:00
Speaker
And when you learn to analyze people, that's what happens when you learn to understand.
00:04:04
Speaker
And it's not analyzing for the sake of analyzing.
00:04:07
Speaker
It's analyzing for the sake of understanding them and what they may be going through past years.
00:04:15
Speaker
what they're actually telling you.
00:04:17
Speaker
Right.
00:04:17
Speaker
So I think that's definitely got me a lot to where I am.
00:04:21
Speaker
But apart from that, I think I have always been someone curious.
00:04:27
Speaker
I've loved reading.
00:04:28
Speaker
I still love reading.
00:04:29
Speaker
I mean, as a kid, I would just take any school books you give, like except the technical ones.
00:04:35
Speaker
I'll read them before school even starts.
00:04:37
Speaker
Right.
00:04:38
Speaker
That used to be my passion.
00:04:39
Speaker
I'll literally be there with my science books, reading science books before school, not to learn, but like just to read the story or read it like a story.
00:04:48
Speaker
So I think that made me really curious anyways, because I would read anything and everything over time.
00:04:54
Speaker
That hasn't left to me, like just trying to understand a new thing.
00:04:59
Speaker
And it's the same.
00:05:00
Speaker
I think it's the same mindset.
00:05:02
Speaker
It's just not understanding people, but it's also understanding people.
00:05:05
Speaker
environment circumstances what is happening so I think that has got me but man that's such a loaded question I could go on for like three hours no it is it definitely is I'll probably tell you things I don't even know about myself like please go ahead no no no but I would say curiosity just more than anything because it struck me in a podcast I was listening today
00:05:28
Speaker
But you always need to stay curious.
00:05:30
Speaker
And that got me thinking, like, maybe that's the reason I am who I am in that manner, right?
00:05:38
Speaker
I mean, that's not me fully.
00:05:40
Speaker
But like in one manner, the reason I'm even in Web3 was because it fascinated me from the beginning.
00:05:45
Speaker
Like, what is this?
00:05:47
Speaker
It's not surprising.
00:05:48
Speaker
Right.
00:05:48
Speaker
Like even hearing you just talk for five minutes is it just, it makes so much sense that you would be, that you would be in this space right now.
00:05:56
Speaker
And I, I love introverts.
00:05:59
Speaker
I love introverts because what's really interesting is that in the way you were talking, you said you'd like to speak to other people where, you
00:06:08
Speaker
What strikes me is that I feel like, and you've kind of hinted towards that, is that you love to listen to people.
00:06:15
Speaker
You love to hear what they have to say.
00:06:17
Speaker
And that's what I felt fascinated about with you is that maybe I finally met someone who's as interested in hearing people's stories as I am.
00:06:30
Speaker
What you're saying about the twitching of the eye being a physiological response to something internal is
00:06:38
Speaker
just such a great description of like there is an infinite world happening inside of us and it expresses itself and like just small movements and small like flicks of the eyes and it's in ways that we ourselves don't recognize i mean that was the whole premise of the series right people are trying whatever they can
00:07:02
Speaker
to not respond to a certain question or a certain interrogation.
00:07:07
Speaker
And by the way, it's based off an actual scientist who does this for a living, like he has an entire course on micro expressions that you can sign up for, etc.
00:07:16
Speaker
So it was based on that when I dug into it, which I found all the more fascinating, right?
00:07:21
Speaker
It wasn't just a TV show, it was like actual science that you can learn and train yourself.
00:07:26
Speaker
And that's the point, like,
00:07:28
Speaker
We react in situations in so many mannerisms, in so many different ways that we ourselves don't realize until it's gone.
00:07:38
Speaker
And then we're just like, oh, okay, that's maybe not how I should have.
00:07:44
Speaker
responded that way or maybe that's not actually what I was thinking maybe not I was feeling I didn't actually want to say what I did because I wanted to say something else you know you you have you ever had this this this thing at school where you know someone's sort of insulted you and you've either not said something or you said something you think back you know a day later hey I could have said it this way
00:08:09
Speaker
Right?
00:08:13
Speaker
When I was younger, when I was a teenager, I used to obsess.
00:08:17
Speaker
And also because I developed and I built myself in such a way that all of my self-worth depended on how others viewed me.
00:08:27
Speaker
And so everything that you're describing right now
00:08:31
Speaker
Every single thing that I did or said or were just ended up being stuck in my head and going on in a loop and me trying to, holy shit, like I need to...
00:08:42
Speaker
what happened?
00:08:43
Speaker
Did I do this right or wrong?
00:08:45
Speaker
And it's incredible that you're saying that because that was me.
00:08:49
Speaker
So when we started this conversation, like I know we're going to find a lot more similarities, but yes, I mean, 100% that was me thinking about everything I said, people, what they said, and just, you know, just obsessing over it.
00:09:05
Speaker
And I don't know when, um,
00:09:08
Speaker
I sort of decided not to do that anymore.
00:09:13
Speaker
I can't pinpoint a single turning page sort of thing.
00:09:17
Speaker
But right now, thankfully, that's no longer the case, right?
00:09:22
Speaker
How did you go about it though?
00:09:23
Speaker
Because I know how I did, but I'd be super intrigued because I know that you and I were not the only ones.
00:09:29
Speaker
There's a ton of people who have been told that they need to behave a certain way
Honest Communication in Relationships
00:09:35
Speaker
and who obsess over the way they are behaving because
00:09:38
Speaker
Like even in, you hear it in relationships, you hear it in work environments of, oh my God, I did this.
00:09:45
Speaker
Like, how do you think I'm going to be perceived?
00:09:48
Speaker
And everyone's struggling with that where my approach to life right now is you at any time, moment, you...
00:09:56
Speaker
can only be the best version of yourself.
00:09:59
Speaker
Like you can't do better and you can't do worse.
00:10:01
Speaker
You're just gonna do what you're going to do.
00:10:03
Speaker
But what was your process in moving beyond this constant feedback loop with what you think other are perceiving of you?
00:10:13
Speaker
Good question.
00:10:14
Speaker
So for me, I don't know what my process was, but I can tell you what it is now.
00:10:20
Speaker
For instance, if someone says something that hurts me, right?
00:10:24
Speaker
I think I look at it, one, I try at least, you know, I'm not 100% perfect.
00:10:30
Speaker
I get it wrong, even with the closest people in my life, especially with them, right?
00:10:34
Speaker
Because there, like, it's no longer a facade and it just becomes so much harder to do whatever I do with other people, with the closest people like my wife, for instance.
00:10:45
Speaker
But at least what I try and do is employ a sense of empathy, realizing that they might be going through something that has nothing to do with me.
00:10:56
Speaker
And which is why they have said what they have.
00:11:00
Speaker
And if I decide to ruminate on that and obsess over it, it is not going to help them, but it's definitely not helping me.
00:11:09
Speaker
Right.
00:11:10
Speaker
Because it was misspoken.
00:11:11
Speaker
It was misstated.
00:11:13
Speaker
It was misunderstood.
00:11:15
Speaker
So would I rather...
00:11:17
Speaker
leave that behind and actually try and figure out what were they trying to say, what was behind what they said than obsessing.
00:11:25
Speaker
So I would obsess over that now, right?
00:11:28
Speaker
But in a more positive manner, like, okay, this is what happened.
00:11:31
Speaker
This is what happened.
00:11:32
Speaker
So maybe this is how I should respond to it.
00:11:37
Speaker
So that is one.
00:11:38
Speaker
But second, I think this is almost a process that a lot of people go through and some get out of it, some don't.
00:11:46
Speaker
When you're, or at least I wouldn't say when you or generalize, but like when I was in that stage, right?
00:11:53
Speaker
I've not done anything to tell myself that I'm worthy enough to not let this impact me, right?
00:12:02
Speaker
Like why does something hurt you?
00:12:04
Speaker
It's because you take it personally.
00:12:06
Speaker
Why do you take it personally?
00:12:08
Speaker
It's because you almost believe that about yourself, right?
00:12:12
Speaker
Now, okay, which means there's someone else's belief of you and then there is your belief of yourself.
00:12:19
Speaker
Now, when we're in that stage or when I was in that stage, I didn't have this sort of sense of belief of myself, right?
00:12:27
Speaker
But over the years, doing what I have, being good at least, you know, I think I've done well in whatever phase I was in, right, has allowed me to develop that sense of
00:12:39
Speaker
self-worth and belief that, yes, okay, I am where I am because of something I've done.
00:12:46
Speaker
Yes, a lot of people have contributed and I'm grateful to them, although I should definitely make it a practice to try and be more grateful.
00:12:54
Speaker
But it's because, okay, you know, what's funny to that is I tell myself that, you know, a lot of times.
00:13:02
Speaker
But on the other hand, I also then suffer from imposter syndrome.
00:13:07
Speaker
where getting into a new thing or even thinking about a new thing, I always just end up telling myself initially that, oh,
00:13:15
Speaker
You can't do it.
00:13:16
Speaker
Like, what is this?
00:13:17
Speaker
Like, what are you even trying to do?
00:13:19
Speaker
But then after that initial thought comes in, then it's about me fighting with myself almost.
00:13:25
Speaker
OK, why do I think I can't do it?
00:13:27
Speaker
No, you can do it.
00:13:27
Speaker
OK, you can do it this way.
00:13:29
Speaker
Oh, no, but you can't do it.
00:13:30
Speaker
So there's this always this internal conflict, which I think if done right, can also be very healthy.
00:13:38
Speaker
Right.
00:13:39
Speaker
Because it's not that you think you're you're everything, you're 100 percent.
00:13:45
Speaker
Right.
00:13:45
Speaker
But you're realizing that, OK, you're not there yet.
00:13:48
Speaker
You can get there.
00:13:49
Speaker
OK, so then you start identifying what you need to get there, whether that means learning more, whether that means connecting more.
00:13:56
Speaker
Whether that just means exploring more.
00:13:58
Speaker
To me, that's how my current process is.
00:14:01
Speaker
And like I said, I still get it wrong so many times, but I'm at least a lot more peaceful than I ever used to be.
00:14:10
Speaker
Like I can tell you that 100%.
00:14:13
Speaker
So it's honestly like almost a weight lifted off my shoulders over the years when I think about it.
00:14:20
Speaker
A huge one.
00:14:21
Speaker
Even.
00:14:21
Speaker
Yeah, man, I, I, I love this.
00:14:25
Speaker
And yeah,
00:14:27
Speaker
I think we've, unsurprisingly, we've gone through a similar process.
Self-Worth, Empathy, and Personal Responses
00:14:30
Speaker
And I think the one layer that I add is in any, there's a great book called The Courage to be Disliked.
00:14:40
Speaker
I don't know if you've heard about it, but it's, yeah, I love it.
00:14:44
Speaker
I've never finished it, but I've,
00:14:47
Speaker
Somehow read some of it and recommended it.
00:14:50
Speaker
I don't know, like 50 times.
00:14:51
Speaker
Basically it says one of the things that it says is that all problems stem from interpersonal relationships.
00:15:00
Speaker
There's not a problem in our life that doesn't cause for that doesn't come from our relationship to other people around us.
00:15:10
Speaker
And that,
00:15:12
Speaker
When you take that and you extrapolate it and go a few steps of interpretation, every time you're having a problem, every time you're feeling a certain way about a certain situation,
00:15:27
Speaker
There's your dealing with it, and there's your dealing with the other person in this relationship.
00:15:33
Speaker
And I think that's one of the things that I started to really learn in my previous entrepreneurial adventure with my co-founder.
00:15:42
Speaker
And now that I'm with my forever partner, my wife, well, she's not technically my wife yet, but anyways, it's always, hey, this happened.
00:15:55
Speaker
And this is how I feel.
00:15:58
Speaker
And how I feel is not against you.
00:16:01
Speaker
How I feel is not against me either.
00:16:03
Speaker
It's just, hey, like this is the state that I'm in right now.
00:16:07
Speaker
How do you feel about this?
00:16:09
Speaker
And creating this feedback loop kind of takes you out.
00:16:13
Speaker
And in my experience has solved every single, every single problem.
00:16:20
Speaker
It reminds me of, again, it goes back to communication, right?
00:16:25
Speaker
And I'll probably touch upon communication given how bad I'm good.
00:16:30
Speaker
I am like it.
00:16:30
Speaker
It's such a paradox at times.
00:16:32
Speaker
But there was this, Tim Ferriss had a guest recently, this famous woman who's a motivational speaker or call or whatever.
00:16:43
Speaker
And she was talking about how her and her husband
00:16:47
Speaker
deal with things a lot of times is, you know, they have almost a measuring scale.
00:16:54
Speaker
Okay, so let's call it, you know, 1-200.
00:16:56
Speaker
And when she comes back home, and she says, well, okay, I'm at a 20.
00:17:02
Speaker
What she's essentially saying is to her husband is you need to be an AT for me right now.
00:17:08
Speaker
So that as a whole, as a collective, we're at a hundred, right?
00:17:12
Speaker
Now, if she says she's at 20 and her husband says he's at 20, then they come and say, okay, how do we get back to a hundred collectively?
00:17:23
Speaker
Because then it's no longer one person.
00:17:26
Speaker
being there for the others it's both of them being there for each other at that particular point or you know as circumstances change which i thought was was very powerful because what it does like i i still need to uncover the layers but like but the way i was thinking about it is it's something that you don't have to explain a lot you just have to say you're at a 20 or a 30 or a 70 right
00:17:53
Speaker
which means that it removes that certain barrier that you always have in terms of, okay, spilling things out.
00:18:00
Speaker
It could be with a partner of the longest time, but there's still a certain hesitation on saying something, right?
00:18:07
Speaker
But with this, you just have to say you're 20.
00:18:11
Speaker
The other person says they're in 80.
00:18:13
Speaker
Fine.
00:18:13
Speaker
I mean, there's almost that unspoken bond at that minute.
00:18:17
Speaker
I'm going to be there for you.
00:18:19
Speaker
Or if you're aboard 2020, then we're going to be there for each other until we get back to 100 together.
00:18:26
Speaker
I love this.
00:18:27
Speaker
I love this because it also forces you to...
00:18:32
Speaker
Be self-aware.
00:18:33
Speaker
And I know like if we're having this conversation and if this conversation resonates with anyone, they're probably already pretty self-aware.
00:18:40
Speaker
But self-awareness is not something that's constant in our day-to-day lives.
00:18:44
Speaker
And especially with the people who are close to us because you get in the routine.
00:18:50
Speaker
So you just are who you are.
00:18:51
Speaker
There's no judgment.
00:18:53
Speaker
And it's amazing until like you're saying, like she's a 20 and I'm a 20 and we're not,
00:18:59
Speaker
really thinking about that we're just like in our own heads but having this conversation objectifies it i love it i'm i'm implementing this right now in my relationship yeah no uh definitely i think it was a recent uh podcast with tim perry i'm forgetting her name which is so annoying but it was such a looker up powerful and simple concept
00:19:22
Speaker
Like it's literally putting puzzles together, right?
00:19:25
Speaker
It's 20 plus 80 or it's 50 and 50 or it's 20 and 20.
00:19:30
Speaker
Okay.
00:19:30
Speaker
We need like further puzzles.
00:19:31
Speaker
Maybe we need to do something, but we need to go out maybe.
00:19:35
Speaker
And it, it just creates a more understanding environment because like you said, you're right.
00:19:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:43
Speaker
Many times we're in our own heads, we don't recognize what the other person's going through.
00:19:47
Speaker
And then we're viewing it through our lens.
00:19:49
Speaker
They're viewing it through theirs.
00:19:51
Speaker
And neither one of us are seeing each other.
00:19:54
Speaker
And then we say things that we don't mean.
00:19:58
Speaker
And then to fix that, by the way, takes a lot longer than if it was even spoken about at the beginning or like even with just a simple hack.
00:20:08
Speaker
Right.
00:20:08
Speaker
But like solving that is just another whole journey because then that creates resentment.
00:20:13
Speaker
It creates.
00:20:15
Speaker
creates these unresolved feelings and then you sit on it and you bottle it and then things get piled onto it.
00:20:21
Speaker
So it's interesting.
00:20:24
Speaker
And what you were saying previously about your co-founder relationship to your wife, to me, it's the other way around now.
00:20:31
Speaker
Like the things that I'm learning, being with my wife and having conflict, having good days, bad days,
00:20:39
Speaker
et cetera, is, okay, how can I translate this and be more understanding, be more empathetic to even my co-founders or my team or people around me, right?
00:20:51
Speaker
And then you have that feedback loop where they say, okay, well, you said something which wasn't right.
00:20:59
Speaker
And then, okay, why did I say it?
00:21:01
Speaker
Maybe there was a reason I said it.
00:21:03
Speaker
And then when I look back at it, okay, maybe I was feeling X, maybe Y,
00:21:08
Speaker
said like whatever it is and you've got to grapple and self-aware is i think everyone is on that journey if they want to be at least for their whole life because you're constantly changing right if you were self-aware at school you would have said okay i am insecure or i'm not insecure
00:21:28
Speaker
Now it's a different self-awareness where it's about, okay, this is how I deal.
00:21:34
Speaker
And being on that journey is brilliant.
00:21:36
Speaker
I mean, it's struggle because you face a lot of uncomfortable truths about yourself a lot of times.
00:21:45
Speaker
But then when you're able to at least see it in front of you in some manner,
00:21:50
Speaker
It's like, okay, you know, I at least know what the hell is happening.
00:21:54
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's a never-ending process.
00:21:58
Speaker
All right, I'm going to ask you a very interesting question that comes out of what you've said before.
Journey to Fraud Investigation
00:22:05
Speaker
How the hell does someone dream of being a fraud investigator?
00:22:08
Speaker
Like, who at five years old is like...
00:22:12
Speaker
Oh, my God, mommy, daddy, I want to be a fraud investigator when I grow up.
00:22:15
Speaker
Well, credits to my dad.
00:22:18
Speaker
So, I mean, my background, I come from, so I'm Indian, but, you know, born and raised in Dubai, and I still live here.
00:22:28
Speaker
My dad, his dad, my mom, my uncle, and just like so many members of the family.
00:22:35
Speaker
I come from a long line of accountants, right?
00:22:38
Speaker
So there was always that accounting finance gene, so to speak.
00:22:43
Speaker
I was always good with numbers.
00:22:45
Speaker
I understood finances in a way.
00:22:49
Speaker
Now, why fraud investigator?
00:22:50
Speaker
So that goes back to me being an avid reader.
00:22:54
Speaker
One of the books...
00:22:56
Speaker
of the series that I used to love reading was the Hardy Boys right and that was a detective novel and then from Hardy Boys I go to Sherlock Holmes I go to Agatha Christie I go to all these different authors down the same crime thriller sort of route and over time I think I remember when I was 12 or 13 I told my dad I want to be a detective like literally a detective in the police force um
00:23:21
Speaker
Then he's like, no, why would you do that?
00:23:23
Speaker
And you know, you're going to have to handle guns and it's not safe.
00:23:25
Speaker
And I sort of like put a pin in it, didn't think too much about it.
00:23:30
Speaker
And then at some point, now my dad himself is a fraud investigator, right?
00:23:35
Speaker
So I remember this very clearly once he came home and this is the first time he ever spoke about what he does.
00:23:42
Speaker
And without revealing like names and everything, because of course there's a lot of confidentiality attached to it, but he was just describing the circumstances.
00:23:50
Speaker
And I was just like, wait a minute, this is literally what I wanted to do, but in a more safer manner while probably earning more money.
00:24:00
Speaker
I mean, like that's what I'm looking at at 13, right?
00:24:03
Speaker
Just to have a stable career.
00:24:05
Speaker
And since then, like it, I went down the track.
00:24:08
Speaker
So like it was about getting my accounting.
00:24:10
Speaker
It was about getting my investigation, you know, certificate, participating in a few fraud investigation.
00:24:17
Speaker
And it's always fascinated me just because a lot of things, even personally, have been affected because of certain corporate frauds that have happened.
00:24:27
Speaker
So 2008 was, they don't call it fraud, but it essentially was widespread fraud manipulation.
00:24:36
Speaker
Systemic fraud.
00:24:37
Speaker
Exactly, right?
00:24:38
Speaker
With the subprime mortgages being so.
00:24:40
Speaker
And then you look at Enron and you look at all of these things, right?
00:24:44
Speaker
And it was just like, it's affected me personally.
00:24:48
Speaker
So what I really want to do is try and see how I can reduce this in my own little manner.
00:24:55
Speaker
Like one of my goals, let's put it right, that I always thought of the world loses almost two to three trillion dollars or maybe more in fraud.
00:25:04
Speaker
Like this is what is known.
00:25:05
Speaker
I don't even want to think what is unknown, but like three trillion dollars, five percent of the world's GDP is lost to fraud every year.
00:25:13
Speaker
And I was like, if I'm able to cut down even like 0.01%, that's still a large number.
00:25:20
Speaker
And it would have such a big impact on so many people.
00:25:25
Speaker
So that's how...
00:25:26
Speaker
I went down that journey and then over time sort of fell out of love with it.
00:25:34
Speaker
I think, you know, I did it and then I was just like, okay, maybe I want to do something else.
00:25:40
Speaker
So I no longer am a fraud investigator.
00:25:43
Speaker
Like I still have my certificate, whatever, but don't actively...
00:25:46
Speaker
you know, participate in any investigations.
00:25:48
Speaker
But hey, it's good.
00:25:50
Speaker
I at least got to do what I always dreamed of, which is a lot, by the way.
00:25:55
Speaker
You know, the amount of people that I...
00:25:57
Speaker
meet and speak to.
00:25:59
Speaker
I remember even at that age and now speaking to kids, right, who are trying to find what they want to do.
00:26:05
Speaker
I just tell myself I'm grateful, right, that somehow or the other I found what I wanted to do, which allowed me to at least have a steady path right after school, you know, university, education, a career, etc.
00:26:22
Speaker
Whereas a lot of people
00:26:24
Speaker
took a lot of time to figure out what they wanted to do and maybe still haven't.
00:26:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:29
Speaker
So, cause I was, I was looking through your LinkedIn bio and looking through some of the highlights of, of that career, or at least of a portion of it.
Money's Influence and Perception of Wealth
00:26:41
Speaker
What did you learn about money and about the people who have a lot of money
00:26:48
Speaker
and who do these things while doing it because our activity, our work, all of that has a big impact in how we grow as people and in our perception of the world.
00:27:00
Speaker
And so when I was looking at what you were saying and the numbers, like the millions, the hundreds of millions, what did you learn about all this?
00:27:08
Speaker
What is your, how do you feel about money these days?
00:27:13
Speaker
in in very interesting i don't know i have uh i'll be honest i have a lot of different thoughts about money and i don't think i have fully solidified in a way what money means to me uh personally just because you know i haven't been much of a saver but because of my wife i've started saving and now i realize why maybe i should have started saving a lot earlier right
00:27:38
Speaker
So that is one chain of thought.
00:27:41
Speaker
But then on the other hand, there's also that, okay, you've got to spend money to make money.
00:27:46
Speaker
That's okay.
00:27:47
Speaker
I've got to spend money to either, let's say, either invest it or put it in a business or do something with it to make it, right?
00:27:56
Speaker
Because some people let it sit and do nothing with it and it gets eaten away by inflation.
00:28:01
Speaker
Some people do it the other way.
00:28:02
Speaker
I think one thing's for sure.
00:28:04
Speaker
I just don't think money buys happiness.
00:28:07
Speaker
I think
00:28:08
Speaker
That cliche is true.
00:28:12
Speaker
At the same time, though, I do not like the way money gets portrayed a lot of times where it's about, oh, you don't need money to be happy.
00:28:22
Speaker
I mean, try telling that to the homeless person who is almost dying every single day that money can't buy him happiness.
00:28:33
Speaker
Right.
00:28:34
Speaker
So to me, it's both those different views that, OK, on one hand, it can.
00:28:43
Speaker
On the other hand, it can't.
00:28:45
Speaker
And I think the middle ground is just about what.
00:28:50
Speaker
we think is, is right for us.
00:28:53
Speaker
Right.
00:28:53
Speaker
I think what we think is, okay, is this much, but that's not an easy question to answer because I don't think there's a, otherwise I wouldn't ask it.
00:29:05
Speaker
Right.
00:29:05
Speaker
No, I'm saying that very question is what does, yeah, what does money mean or how much money is sufficient is actually not an easy question to answer.
00:29:16
Speaker
Because a lot of times you think a million dollars, okay, that's it.
00:29:18
Speaker
I'm going to retire or 10 million.
00:29:20
Speaker
I'm going to retire.
00:29:21
Speaker
Right.
00:29:22
Speaker
And then two years later, you have that million, just like, no, I need 10, 10 million more.
00:29:28
Speaker
So it's like, okay, why do I need it?
00:29:32
Speaker
What am I looking to do?
00:29:34
Speaker
What is this money going to do for me that will make me happy?
00:29:40
Speaker
Right?
00:29:41
Speaker
So is it going to give me a certain sense of security?
00:29:44
Speaker
Well, okay.
00:29:44
Speaker
Can I get that sense of security somewhere else or in some other manner without that much money?
00:29:51
Speaker
Right?
00:29:52
Speaker
If that's the case, then, hey, I don't have to pursue a lot of money.
00:29:57
Speaker
Instead, I can do things that I'm happy with.
00:30:01
Speaker
Right.
00:30:02
Speaker
And I think as a founder or someone who's just trying to build something, right, there's always that thing like, OK, how do I look at it?
00:30:13
Speaker
Right.
00:30:13
Speaker
Should I give up, let's say, a high paying job or should I just go ahead and do something that I like?
00:30:20
Speaker
Right.
00:30:20
Speaker
And that's when it's okay.
00:30:22
Speaker
You know what?
00:30:22
Speaker
I wanted the high paying job because it was going to make me, or that money was going to make me happy.
00:30:29
Speaker
But guess what?
00:30:30
Speaker
What I'm actually wanting to do will make me a lot happier, even if I own less.
00:30:35
Speaker
Right.
00:30:36
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:30:37
Speaker
And, and why people have done it?
00:30:41
Speaker
Honestly, that's a loaded question.
00:30:44
Speaker
Like I've, I've seen people who have everything, right?
00:30:48
Speaker
like everything possible and they would still cheat, scam their way out of things.
00:30:56
Speaker
Right.
00:30:57
Speaker
I've seen people who have nothing and there's almost a reason for them to do it.
00:31:02
Speaker
Right.
00:31:03
Speaker
And they do it.
00:31:04
Speaker
I mean, if you want a more scientific response to that, there's a, the fraud triangle, right?
00:31:10
Speaker
You need opportunity, incentive and rationalization.
00:31:13
Speaker
You need to have the opportunity.
00:31:15
Speaker
You need to have the incentive.
00:31:18
Speaker
But, you know, the interesting thing is the rationalization.
00:31:21
Speaker
Rationalization such as, oh, my company doesn't pay me so much.
00:31:24
Speaker
So it's OK if I take off a few hundred dollars.
00:31:27
Speaker
People many times have the opportunity.
00:31:30
Speaker
They have the incentive.
00:31:31
Speaker
But then it's about, OK, what do I tell myself that I'm doing this for?
00:31:36
Speaker
And that either stops them from doing it.
00:31:38
Speaker
or actually pushes them further to do it if there's really someone very disgruntled.
00:31:44
Speaker
And like the case with one of the cases I was on, where this guy was just being underpaid for like 30 years, and he was part of like a 2 million, let's put it in USD, about 500, 600,000 USD fraud.
00:31:58
Speaker
And I can understand why he would do it, because he's been with the company since the beginning.
00:32:03
Speaker
but he's not been paid as much as he thinks he's worth.
00:32:07
Speaker
It's like, okay, I understand why.
00:32:10
Speaker
I believe it's wrong, but I understand why you did it.
00:32:14
Speaker
Right?
00:32:15
Speaker
And that's what he tells himself.
00:32:16
Speaker
And that's what he tells himself.
00:32:18
Speaker
And so from this, because this was your background, this was your experience, this was your life for so many years, and so now you find yourself in Web3 and very interested in Web3.
Introduction to Web3 and Mindset Transition
00:32:29
Speaker
What was a eureka moment for you?
00:32:31
Speaker
What was the thing of...
00:32:34
Speaker
Holy shit, Web3 is it.
00:32:37
Speaker
So I got to give credit to my wife and I always do because I wouldn't be in the space if not for her.
00:32:42
Speaker
So I remember back in the previous bull market, you know, where we were already at the peak of the bull, peak of the cycle.
00:32:50
Speaker
My wife's like, hey, you want to get into Bitcoin?
00:32:53
Speaker
I'm just like, I come from a very skeptical mindset, right?
00:32:56
Speaker
And I'm just like, what is this scam like?
00:32:58
Speaker
No, I don't want to.
00:33:00
Speaker
She's like, no, how about we put in a lot of money?
00:33:02
Speaker
Like literally chump change.
00:33:04
Speaker
Why don't we just put into it and see what happens?
00:33:07
Speaker
And I was like, okay, I did it.
00:33:10
Speaker
Now the thing with me is,
00:33:12
Speaker
If I put my money into something, I definitely want to find out what the hell is happening there.
00:33:17
Speaker
It's almost that Indian side of me that we want to know that that money is being well spent, which reminds me of another thing I have about anyways.
00:33:29
Speaker
So I'm just like, okay, I put in the money.
00:33:32
Speaker
It coincided with a trip that I was, I'd gone to another country.
00:33:37
Speaker
I was seconded there, like put on a long-term assignment for about six months where, um,
00:33:42
Speaker
I would work, you know, a typical nine to five, but then I have the entire evening.
00:33:45
Speaker
And this was right after I put in that money.
00:33:47
Speaker
So it's like, okay, let me look into this.
00:33:49
Speaker
And that's when I went down the rabbit hole.
00:33:51
Speaker
And that's when things started to click like, okay, transparency, immutability, provenance.
00:34:00
Speaker
And I'm just like, all of these were just such abstract concepts, even this whole decentralization, right?
00:34:06
Speaker
but it almost helped me coming from the background that I did was almost that, hey, you know what?
00:34:11
Speaker
The banks didn't do shit to protect us.
00:34:14
Speaker
They were the ones that caused the 2008 crisis, right?
00:34:18
Speaker
So why should I even trust the banks anymore with my money?
00:34:21
Speaker
So, okay, here is an alternate system where it is trustless.
00:34:28
Speaker
It's peer to peer.
00:34:30
Speaker
And it's immutable.
00:34:32
Speaker
It's transparent.
00:34:33
Speaker
I can see what the hell is happening.
00:34:35
Speaker
There's no corporate veil.
00:34:36
Speaker
There's no hidden books.
00:34:38
Speaker
You know, everything's open.
00:34:40
Speaker
I'm like, yes.
00:34:42
Speaker
Like, why not?
00:34:45
Speaker
Like, why wasn't this done earlier almost?
00:34:48
Speaker
Like, why are we not doing it right now?
00:34:51
Speaker
Because this is how it should be in a lot of different manners, right?
00:34:56
Speaker
Like we need to know what the hell is happening with our money.
00:34:58
Speaker
We need to know what the banks are doing.
00:35:00
Speaker
We still don't.
00:35:02
Speaker
I mean, the 2008 crisis, yes, brought upon a lot of improved regulations.
00:35:07
Speaker
There's less corporate fraud since then.
00:35:10
Speaker
But the fact is we still don't know how money is being used.
00:35:15
Speaker
So like, would I rather sign up just rationally as a human being?
00:35:19
Speaker
I have money.
00:35:19
Speaker
I'm giving it to someone.
00:35:21
Speaker
Do I not want to know how that money is being spent?
00:35:24
Speaker
Well, we do, but we never question that because we only know that system of giving the banker money, getting an interest of absolute nothing.
00:35:35
Speaker
And being happy with it.
00:35:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:37
Speaker
I think that's a big... I was going to say it's a Western thing, but I think it's a global thing of governments and generally also large corporations have been kind of infantilizing the people at the bottom or like the populations because it's...
00:35:55
Speaker
trust us, we've got your best interests at heart.
00:35:58
Speaker
And so you put your money to something or to someplace that is credible.
00:36:04
Speaker
And I think that's one of the biggest problems right now.
00:36:07
Speaker
I kind of had this, I don't know, naive dream that once the system changes, the people who are part of the system will change as well.
00:36:17
Speaker
And it turns out that it's not really the case because you have people, you have teams that are launching protocols that want to decentralize and where in an ideal world, the target audience would be like, all right, I have bank on one hand and I have DeFi on the other hand.
00:36:39
Speaker
DeFi is...
00:36:40
Speaker
you have more power in your hands, you have more autonomy, you have more agency, but it requires, you also have more responsibility.
00:36:47
Speaker
And part of your responsibility is you need to level up and you find yourself, you find yourself.
00:36:55
Speaker
And as a founder in front of people who sometimes will still keep the same mindset that they had on one head and on one hand and not really
00:37:06
Speaker
transitioned and that's one of the hardest things of okay UX is a very important thing yeah
00:37:13
Speaker
And we're feeling it and it's on the mind of a lot of founders, but it's not enough.
00:37:18
Speaker
We need to kind of rewire the brains of millions and millions of people in order to be able to really go to a place of, all right, I'm going to take care of my own money.
00:37:30
Speaker
And so I'm going to do the, yes, I'm going to need to spend a few hours on this, but at least I have the power.
00:37:37
Speaker
You know, what's interesting is this concept of owning your money.
00:37:41
Speaker
It's not new.
00:37:42
Speaker
As an Indian, right, if you look at our heritage, I mean, my grandmother still does it, right?
00:37:48
Speaker
We keep our money with us.
00:37:51
Speaker
It's as simple as that.
00:37:52
Speaker
Like you go to some old, actually just about any Indian, and you go to the grandmothers or like the older relatives, they would store their gold at home in safes and locked boxes.
00:38:07
Speaker
And they would take the necessary precautions, whether it be installing a security camera, a fantastic safe, so on and so forth, whatever.
00:38:15
Speaker
But they wanted to know that they have access to it.
00:38:18
Speaker
It was as simple as that.
00:38:20
Speaker
They didn't trust anyone with it.
00:38:22
Speaker
And that's just how the system operated.
00:38:24
Speaker
I mean, we did move from gold to paper money and to, well, free digital money, like, you know, credit cards or whatever.
00:38:31
Speaker
But like there was gold at that point.
00:38:33
Speaker
And what do you think was happening with gold?
00:38:35
Speaker
It wasn't that people were lugging around bricks of gold and giving it to the bank and then taking it like two days later.
00:38:41
Speaker
Yes, I need like one half of this.
00:38:43
Speaker
Let's do it.
00:38:45
Speaker
They would just keep it with them and they would use it how they deem fit.
00:38:48
Speaker
And I think, of course, a lot of people have forgotten about it or probably didn't have the same heritage.
00:38:54
Speaker
But I think a lot of that is just because we do not want to understand it.
00:39:01
Speaker
I think there is some part of us, which is very normal, that takes the safer route or the supposedly safer and actually the more comfortable route where, hey, you know what?
00:39:12
Speaker
The easiest.
00:39:13
Speaker
The easiest route, right?
00:39:15
Speaker
We don't want to take care of it.
00:39:17
Speaker
We're just going to give it to somebody and let them manage it.
00:39:22
Speaker
We don't want to store anything because who knows it's going to get stolen at home.
00:39:27
Speaker
So we're just going to give it to someone.
00:39:29
Speaker
And that's it.
00:39:30
Speaker
It's the reason why a lot of new wallet providers are allowing you to almost reset your keys and like retrieve your wallets and everything.
00:39:41
Speaker
Why?
00:39:41
Speaker
Because as messed up as that sounds, like, and we're going back to Web2 with that,
00:39:47
Speaker
But unfortunately, that's where we are.
00:39:49
Speaker
Like, that's what people want.
00:39:51
Speaker
They just want to be able to log in or sign up, forget about it, forget their password, come in and be like, forgot password, generate a news password and do that again two months later.
00:40:03
Speaker
But if you look at us, for us, it's like, okay, you write down the keys and you keep it somewhere, you get a ledger.
00:40:08
Speaker
So I think it's just about having that curiosity mindset.
00:40:14
Speaker
which I had and I was privileged enough in a way to have it because of whatever I wanted to do.
00:40:21
Speaker
So it was always about being curious.
00:40:23
Speaker
And I think unless you are that way, you will never realize that there is an alternate way.
00:40:29
Speaker
And I'm not saying Web3 is perfect.
00:40:32
Speaker
I'm not saying this is the way.
00:40:34
Speaker
I mean, who knows?
00:40:35
Speaker
Ten years later, there's going to be a better way to manage money.
00:40:38
Speaker
I'll be open to it.
00:40:40
Speaker
I'll be open to switch.
00:40:41
Speaker
I don't think it has to do with that.
00:40:43
Speaker
I don't think it has to do with the system.
00:40:47
Speaker
I think it has to do with the people who make up the system.
00:40:51
Speaker
And the problem with Web3 is that 90% of the people who have gone in, who have got in in the previous bull runs have gotten because one of their or many of their friends or the media have said,
00:41:05
Speaker
holy shit, there's a gold rush.
00:41:07
Speaker
This is where you're going to 100 extra money in a few weeks or in a few months.
00:41:11
Speaker
And so there's no real infrastructure for knowledge.
00:41:16
Speaker
There's no... I keep getting reminded of the matrix lately.
00:41:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:20
Speaker
Because I'm building a decentralized ecosystem and we want to have some steps in order to get into the system, some proof of knowledge, some proof of value, some proof of understanding of what it is that we're trying to build and the behaviors that are expected.
00:41:38
Speaker
And so I keep thinking of the matrix and the knowledge download.
00:41:44
Speaker
Like it was such an important part of Neo getting out of the matrix and getting back in with a better knowledge.
00:41:51
Speaker
And it's the same thing.
00:41:52
Speaker
You need to get out of Web2 and you need to get out of the traditional banking system.
00:41:56
Speaker
You can't just get out and get back in and just expect that everything is going to change because you need to do the work that you did.
00:42:06
Speaker
But not everyone is going to do it.
00:42:08
Speaker
And that's why we have to do some intense work on the onboarding into those new systems, because we need to help transmute those people's minds and understandings of how the world works.
00:42:23
Speaker
And okay, there's freedom in this side.
00:42:27
Speaker
But with freedom comes responsibility.
00:42:30
Speaker
You know, a couple of things on that same chain of thought.
00:42:35
Speaker
So when I was posted there, I mean, nine to five, that five to six hours after, or maybe a lot more, all I did was read white papers.
00:42:44
Speaker
Like I didn't understand shit, but what I understood was the gist of it.
00:42:50
Speaker
I understood what a certain protocol or a project was trying to solve, right?
00:42:55
Speaker
I got burnt because I got into ICOs and everything, but it was okay.
00:43:01
Speaker
I still look back at it and think of it as an investment because through that, I was able to understand why a certain project is trying to change a certain way of working.
00:43:12
Speaker
Let me give you a simple example.
00:43:14
Speaker
There's a platform called Audit Chain.
00:43:16
Speaker
They're still around and I'd seen them back in the day, 2017, 2018.
00:43:19
Speaker
Now how Audit works is
00:43:22
Speaker
a company has its financial records, it goes once a year or maybe a little bit more during the year, go to a centralized body, they stamp, verify, they do all this sorts of stuff and you leave it on them.
00:43:34
Speaker
And my background, I have been that auditor as well.
00:43:37
Speaker
So I've been in that, I've been on that side, looking at these financials, signing them off, whatever it be.
00:43:44
Speaker
But what this protocol aims to do is
00:43:48
Speaker
decentralize it while also giving almost real time auditing, which makes a lot of sense because now I don't need to wait for that once a year financial statement to come to make my investing decision.
00:44:01
Speaker
I will know how a company is operating on a regular basis.
00:44:05
Speaker
Right?
00:44:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:06
Speaker
So that struck, I was just like, okay, this is very interesting and so on and so forth with, with a lot of these other protocols.
00:44:14
Speaker
But you know, what was more interesting is whatever I am today, wasn't because of the person that I was in that 2017 to 18, what happened is, okay, 2017, 18, I got burned.
00:44:23
Speaker
I saw each trust $86, um,
00:44:30
Speaker
And I was getting engaged and I had a lot of other things happening.
00:44:33
Speaker
So I pretty much left the market.
00:44:36
Speaker
I remember the last time I checked my Binance wallet being the day I got engaged in 2019, right?
00:44:43
Speaker
The same day.
00:44:44
Speaker
And I just left it completely for a year or about a year and a half.
00:44:50
Speaker
And I came back.
00:44:52
Speaker
In 2021, you know, Web3, I was like, okay, very interesting.
00:44:56
Speaker
And even there, I have to thank my wife because we went to a party that was with one of my wife's friends.
00:45:04
Speaker
And there I saw a guy checking his Binance account.
00:45:06
Speaker
I was like,
00:45:07
Speaker
damn, I haven't checked mine forever.
00:45:09
Speaker
What the hell is he doing on this?
00:45:11
Speaker
And we instantly shared a very good conversation for the next three hours.
00:45:17
Speaker
All we did was talk, talk about this, that, that.
00:45:19
Speaker
He got me into his nice little group with other folks investing in crypto.
00:45:24
Speaker
And I still kept resisting.
00:45:26
Speaker
So this is me.
00:45:28
Speaker
I am bullish on it for a good two years.
00:45:31
Speaker
I leave it because I've abandoned hope, right?
00:45:35
Speaker
And I'm resisting this group and whatever they're doing and they're investing in all these coins.
00:45:40
Speaker
I'm like, man, this is all, you know, it's all trash.
00:45:43
Speaker
It's not going to go anywhere, et cetera.
00:45:45
Speaker
And then I had to get over myself.
00:45:48
Speaker
was just like, wait a minute, I believed in it at a certain point.
00:45:51
Speaker
I was a Bitcoin maxi, a crypto maxi, so much that I had bets placed with my uncle that Bitcoin's going to go to like a million and all those sort of things.
00:46:00
Speaker
Like I was fascinated by it.
00:46:02
Speaker
Been there.
00:46:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:03
Speaker
So, but I still left it.
00:46:05
Speaker
And when I came back, it was with, I think, a certain level of respect.
00:46:11
Speaker
But also humility in the sense that, you know what, I still need to learn a lot more.
00:46:16
Speaker
There's still so much to be uncovered and actually identify the reason I want to be in this space.
00:46:22
Speaker
The reason then was, OK, yes, all these great concepts and, OK, I might make money and all of that.
00:46:27
Speaker
But like, OK, now that I know all of that, what do I want to do?
00:46:31
Speaker
Like, yes, I want to meet people in this space.
00:46:33
Speaker
I love this.
00:46:35
Speaker
I love this because it's a perfect, yet another example of you need to get burned.
00:46:41
Speaker
And that's the process of evolution is the process of life and the universe in general.
00:46:47
Speaker
It goes up and then it goes down and then it goes back up.
00:46:50
Speaker
And when you go up, we went through the same process, by the way, the ICO craze, making a shit ton of money and then going back way, way down.
00:47:01
Speaker
we all have our hook.
00:47:03
Speaker
We'll have that one thing that keeps us in or that makes us come back because you're not just a passive participant in this.
Web3 Vision and Ethical Investments
00:47:13
Speaker
You're also a founder.
00:47:14
Speaker
You want to do things.
00:47:15
Speaker
You want to connect people.
00:47:17
Speaker
You're participating in awesome communities because I got to dig into those a little bit.
00:47:23
Speaker
What impact do you want to have?
00:47:26
Speaker
And I'm tired of just talking about Web3 because Web3 is just
00:47:31
Speaker
a potential new infrastructure for our society.
00:47:33
Speaker
It's not the end all be all of what we're doing.
00:47:36
Speaker
It's just a tool towards something else.
00:47:38
Speaker
So what's, what's the impact that you want to have in, in the world and, and why is, um, web three tech and an avenue for this?
00:47:46
Speaker
Okay.
00:47:46
Speaker
Uh, a couple of things.
00:47:48
Speaker
I mean, uh, with web three, I love what you said, because to me, like something I was inspired by in one of, um,
00:47:57
Speaker
of VCs I was in, right?
00:48:00
Speaker
Voice calls for those who don't understand VCs and might misinterpret it.
00:48:06
Speaker
So one of these calls and someone said, I'm waiting for the day that Web3 is no longer called Web3, but it's just called tech.
00:48:13
Speaker
And that resonated with me.
00:48:15
Speaker
And I was just like, boom, there it is.
00:48:18
Speaker
Because that's essential.
00:48:20
Speaker
It's essential that we get over the barrier of having to name something, something, right?
00:48:28
Speaker
When in reality, it's just tech.
00:48:30
Speaker
Because what that has done counterintuitively is actually set up those barriers.
00:48:35
Speaker
It's almost like the borders that countries have or the costs and the creeds and
00:48:39
Speaker
you know, the blacks and the whites and all these things that, that split us in the world.
00:48:45
Speaker
Now we're almost doing that with web three, but then on the other hand, we are a hundred percent doing that.
00:48:53
Speaker
Not even almost.
00:48:55
Speaker
Right.
00:48:56
Speaker
I hate the narrative that, okay.
00:49:00
Speaker
we are Web3 and we're just very different.
00:49:02
Speaker
And first, I don't believe in that.
00:49:04
Speaker
I don't think we're very different.
00:49:06
Speaker
A lot of things we're doing now have been done in so many different manners, but just call different names.
00:49:11
Speaker
And so Web3 be called different names, like NFTs became digital collectibles, right?
00:49:15
Speaker
But what annoys me is we already have enough things that we fight about in the world.
00:49:22
Speaker
And if we are in true Web3 ethos of Web3,
00:49:26
Speaker
being a community and talking about communities and how communities lead the way and it's all community community, right?
00:49:33
Speaker
What good are we doing ourselves by splitting Web3 and Web2 and saying, okay, we're just very different.
00:49:41
Speaker
Yes, the tech is different, but it's still tech.
00:49:45
Speaker
And what that's done is played into the minds of everyone else.
00:49:49
Speaker
Now, as soon as I talk about Web3, there's either a negative or a positive connotation.
00:49:54
Speaker
Tech, by the way, has a very neutral connotation.
00:49:58
Speaker
Tech is tech.
00:49:59
Speaker
What people do when they hear of tech is they're intrigued.
00:50:02
Speaker
Technology, right?
00:50:03
Speaker
You just say the word and it's intriguing because you want to know what technology is.
00:50:07
Speaker
You want to try and dig into it.
00:50:09
Speaker
But as soon as you say Web3, people are like, OK, it's a scam.
00:50:12
Speaker
Or on the other hand, oh, brilliant, it's Web3.
00:50:15
Speaker
Why are we doing that?
00:50:17
Speaker
I mean, the narrative needs to change.
00:50:20
Speaker
And it will.
00:50:21
Speaker
And it will.
00:50:23
Speaker
If the why are we doing that is an actual question, and I'll take it as is because I think that it's a very interesting one.
00:50:30
Speaker
We're doing that because I think that's how every innovation process starts.
00:50:36
Speaker
It starts with, you know how the adoption curve works, right?
00:50:39
Speaker
You have the... Early movers, the early adopters.
00:50:43
Speaker
The innovators, the early adopters.
00:50:46
Speaker
And so the innovators and the early adopters, they care about like Steve Jobs and Wozniak.
00:50:50
Speaker
They loved the concept of the tech.
00:50:54
Speaker
And then they found a way to bring it to the market.
00:50:58
Speaker
And I think that's what we're doing right now is especially frustrating at the moment because we are in our eco-chamber of technology.
00:51:05
Speaker
just people of a lot of speculation because it's very intrinsic to the text that we love.
00:51:13
Speaker
But I think it's a necessary part.
00:51:15
Speaker
And there are people like you and there are people like me and us and the people around us who actually saw
00:51:23
Speaker
this for what it is and it's exactly what you're describing.
00:51:27
Speaker
It's tech.
00:51:28
Speaker
It's a tool.
00:51:28
Speaker
It's something that we're going to use to build cool stuff that we'll bring to the market and that will make us forget about the words Web3.
00:51:36
Speaker
Absolutely, right?
00:51:38
Speaker
It's tool and it just needs to be seen that way.
00:51:42
Speaker
Yes, and I've always believed this.
00:51:44
Speaker
I think even back in 2017, researching all of this, some part of me always told me that
00:51:50
Speaker
OK, all these coins, most of them are going to die and many of them did.
00:51:55
Speaker
But the tech is going to stay.
00:51:58
Speaker
And over time, I mean, that's what we're realizing more and more.
00:52:01
Speaker
It's less about these crypto coins or even these NFTs.
00:52:04
Speaker
Right.
00:52:05
Speaker
But it's like, OK, what can the tech do for us?
00:52:09
Speaker
But what annoys me, okay, fine, we want to call ourselves Web3.
00:52:13
Speaker
I'm happy to buy into it because at least to begin with, there's almost a need in some manner to differentiate to almost also segregate what is the old tech and the new tech.
00:52:27
Speaker
Let's just call it that way, right?
00:52:29
Speaker
But what is annoying to me is when people try and claim Web3 to be the end-all and be-all, where they refuse to believe that Web2 had very good practices that could be impactful in Web3.
00:52:46
Speaker
It's where we think that we're going to run things in a D-gen manner and we're still going to win because it's Web3, it's community, it's culture.
00:52:56
Speaker
It's why a lot of projects fail.
00:52:59
Speaker
It's why there's so much...
00:53:01
Speaker
I mean, so much happening in the space where basic financial concepts are not understood.
00:53:08
Speaker
I mean, basic planning is not done, right?
00:53:11
Speaker
Where a project is going to mint, they have zero plan B, they have zero plan C, they do not know what they're going to do if they don't mint out, what they're going to do if they do mint out, like they don't even know that.
00:53:22
Speaker
Like, yes, they have all these fancy roadmaps, but they literally don't know the next day we get the money, what do we do next, right?
00:53:29
Speaker
But fine, you're getting money is great.
00:53:31
Speaker
What do you do if you don't?
00:53:32
Speaker
Are you going to cut supply?
00:53:34
Speaker
Are you going to reduce?
00:53:35
Speaker
And then they're scrambling around on Monday trying to figure out what to do.
00:53:38
Speaker
And then that just, of course, annoys everyone else because when you have put your expectations in a project,
00:53:44
Speaker
you have consciously or subconsciously told them and trusted them that you're going to do everything right.
00:53:52
Speaker
Which means at least knowing what to do if you don't mind out.
00:53:57
Speaker
But basic concepts like this, we don't care about.
00:54:01
Speaker
And I just don't understand why.
00:54:02
Speaker
We're just a bunch of kids having fun.
00:54:04
Speaker
or not even having fun.
00:54:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:06
Speaker
Like the thing is what a lot of these project founders, yes, they come in with good intentions, right?
00:54:12
Speaker
And maybe they're a little young, fine.
00:54:14
Speaker
Okay.
00:54:14
Speaker
But what they don't realize is that playing, not just with their money, but with a lot of people's money.
00:54:20
Speaker
Right.
00:54:21
Speaker
That to me, what my fraud investigator had is a ground to sue that person because you're playing with that person's money.
00:54:29
Speaker
Like that money could have been everything for that person.
00:54:32
Speaker
You have taken that away from them because you have not planned.
00:54:35
Speaker
You had all the intentions.
00:54:36
Speaker
It was supposed to be a good project, but you just didn't plan because you thought you could run it in a decent manner.
00:54:42
Speaker
Right.
00:54:42
Speaker
And then suddenly this guy has lost everything.
00:54:45
Speaker
What's he going to do next?
00:54:47
Speaker
That money may be for his education, that could have been for his treatment, that could have been for anything and everything.
00:54:54
Speaker
Yeah, but again, see, like this is actually a very interesting turn of the conversation because we're back to...
00:55:02
Speaker
I know what this is like.
00:55:03
Speaker
Investor being the victim, you know, whereas what makes a good investor or when if you're going to have responsibility over your money, you need to be responsible for your money and you need to be accountable.
00:55:15
Speaker
Every single project that doesn't know what they're doing, you can tell that they're that they don't know what they're doing.
00:55:20
Speaker
But if we keep that, you know, that narrative of, oh, the project's stealing the people's money, which, by the way, like, I am an advocate for more responsible founders.
00:55:32
Speaker
I tried myself to be extremely transparent.
00:55:34
Speaker
I try to surround myself with people who are transparent.
00:55:38
Speaker
But at the end of the day,
00:55:40
Speaker
you sent your $100 or your $1,000, you're responsible for it.
00:55:45
Speaker
That's the world that we're going into.
00:55:48
Speaker
I hope because it means that if you make that mistakes and you learn from it and you don't expect...
00:55:55
Speaker
from other people, then hopefully you learn and you do better the next time.
00:56:00
Speaker
I completely buy into this narrative.
00:56:02
Speaker
I mean, absolutely, you should know what you're doing, right?
00:56:06
Speaker
As an investor.
00:56:08
Speaker
Now, think of the term we're using when we're investing.
00:56:12
Speaker
Think of the term an investor.
00:56:15
Speaker
Do you think a 15-year-old knows what investment is and knows how to identify a good project from a bad project?
00:56:24
Speaker
Heck, it takes me hours and hours to figure out when something's going wrong in a company.
00:56:30
Speaker
Hours of my time, hours of a lot of people's time to figure out where even $200,000 has gone wrong.
00:56:37
Speaker
And these projects go away with $2 million.
00:56:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:41
Speaker
Right.
00:56:41
Speaker
So the point is, like, if it took me X number of hours to just identify where $200,000 is, it's going to take me X times 10 to figure out where $2 million is going, which no 15-year-old is going to do.
00:56:54
Speaker
Then what is the solution?
00:56:56
Speaker
Because if we're going for decentralization, it means that we're going for a reduced barrier to entry for projects to have access to liquidity and for people who would normally not have been able to invest.
00:57:09
Speaker
Because, for example, in the US, you'd have to be an accredited investor or whatever.
00:57:14
Speaker
Then what is the solution?
00:57:15
Speaker
Because the responsibility needs to be shared between the two.
00:57:19
Speaker
And so if you're a 15 year old or if you're a 25 year old, I know 40 year olds who don't know shit about due diligence and who still, who keep investing.
00:57:27
Speaker
And so what for you is if, if we're, so one, there's definitely going to be more regulation and there's going to be more ways, but I don't think regulation solves everything.
00:57:39
Speaker
So for you, what is the, what would be then the, the ideal situation, the ideal setup where,
00:57:45
Speaker
the responsibility is effectively shared between the two participants.
00:57:49
Speaker
So on one hand, and I'll speak on the participants, right?
00:57:53
Speaker
And this is me coming from a very Web2 millennial, call me boomer mentality.
00:57:59
Speaker
I just don't care.
00:58:01
Speaker
I believe there is a certain level of financial intelligence you need to have before you get into anything.
00:58:10
Speaker
related to money, right?
00:58:12
Speaker
It's almost the reason why there's a bill in the parliament in the US right now where they're looking to change the definition of what it means to be an accredited investor where there's a quiz or something, right?
00:58:24
Speaker
You fill in that quiz, all these questions related to financial finances and how to manage them.
00:58:31
Speaker
You pass that and you're an accredited investor.
00:58:33
Speaker
And I think that's a very simple, straightforward solution.
00:58:36
Speaker
It's, I mean, I have no problem letting a 14-year-old invest in my company as long as he knows what he's doing.
00:58:45
Speaker
If you know, and you're a gigabrain, you understand finance, absolutely.
00:58:51
Speaker
Go for it.
00:58:51
Speaker
That's one thing where two didn't offer me when I was growing up, right?
00:58:55
Speaker
I wish I had, because I had a lot of financial sense at 15, at 16, with the kind of family that I had, with the kind of education that I had.
00:59:04
Speaker
I would have been happy to invest.
00:59:07
Speaker
Right.
00:59:07
Speaker
I just didn't have the infrastructure now.
00:59:09
Speaker
OK, yes, we have the infrastructure.
00:59:11
Speaker
But I also have the basic finance sense.
00:59:13
Speaker
Right.
00:59:13
Speaker
So I think that to me is a very traditional way to look at it.
00:59:18
Speaker
And I don't mind putting it out there.
00:59:20
Speaker
I just think that needs to happen.
00:59:21
Speaker
Right.
00:59:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:22
Speaker
At the same time, I am inspired by a lot of 15, 16 year olds who know their thing.
00:59:28
Speaker
But that's exactly the point.
00:59:30
Speaker
I'm inspired by those that know their thing, that know what they're doing.
00:59:34
Speaker
Not by the people who are coming in and just going like, yeah, I'm going to put in $100 today.
00:59:38
Speaker
It's going to become a million dollars tomorrow.
00:59:40
Speaker
And hallelujah, this is it.
00:59:41
Speaker
On the other hand, from a founder perspective, it's just being understanding of who you're going to target and who's going to be impacted and what you're going to do.
00:59:51
Speaker
for them and how you can almost manage the risk of doing so.
00:59:57
Speaker
Right.
00:59:57
Speaker
And it's never going to be 100%, but it is still on you to know that you're expecting money.
01:00:04
Speaker
You're taking their money for a good cause.
01:00:06
Speaker
Yes.
01:00:07
Speaker
But do they even know what they're doing?
01:00:08
Speaker
It's like preying on a helpless person.
01:00:11
Speaker
Right.
01:00:12
Speaker
He has nothing and you're still trying to get something from him or he doesn't know what you're doing and you're still trying to like,
01:00:19
Speaker
How is that helping anyone?
01:00:20
Speaker
It's a continuation of the chicken and the egg problem.
01:00:24
Speaker
And that's why I was talking about double responsibility.
01:00:26
Speaker
We need to have more responsible founders.
01:00:30
Speaker
And for that, thank God, there is blockchain and there are people like ZachXBT and there are...
01:00:37
Speaker
other people than ZacXBT who do this job of bringing accountability because they're capable of tracking people.
01:00:44
Speaker
And then you have amazing communities like the CryptoMasks that are big in France or other communities that are actually actively helping people to level up in their understanding of the markets.
01:00:58
Speaker
And by doing both of these things,
01:01:01
Speaker
hopefully in a few years, in a few decades, we'll have, yeah, we'll have a market where there is more accountability on both ends and that is less likely to be the ground for fraud.
01:01:14
Speaker
Right.
01:01:15
Speaker
So that's, so it's a similar vision that I have for the future where you do not have this requirement to be an accredited investor.
Future of Investments and Digital Identity
01:01:23
Speaker
And that's the top 10% of wealthy people in America, for instance, right?
01:01:27
Speaker
And different countries have different requirements, whatever.
01:01:30
Speaker
I think we're going to move to a world where as long as you know your thing, you're allowed to invest.
01:01:36
Speaker
Both in Web 2, I think we're going to see that.
01:01:39
Speaker
The simple reason being because companies have seen how much impact retail investors can have, both in the good and the bad side, right?
01:01:48
Speaker
With GameStop, it was a bunch of retailers that tanned the stock because it was a collective action, right?
01:01:54
Speaker
So it can be both a good and a bad thing, right?
01:01:57
Speaker
And the point is you want to almost invite these people to have a more cohesive ecosystem for your company, for your brand, etc.
01:02:07
Speaker
But I think in Web3, we will see something similar.
01:02:09
Speaker
I think we're going to see a lot of SBTs, right?
01:02:13
Speaker
Different, I know a lot of different protocols experimenting with digital identity, but then also proof of experience, proof of education, proof of experience.
01:02:23
Speaker
So on and so forth.
01:02:24
Speaker
Right.
01:02:24
Speaker
All of which are fantastic concepts.
01:02:27
Speaker
I mean, my only issue with that is like, how many are we going to have and who's going to decide on which is the one main SBT or protocol or whatever to follow the market?
01:02:36
Speaker
Exactly.
01:02:37
Speaker
Right.
01:02:37
Speaker
But then would then that mean a more centralized ecosystem?
01:02:42
Speaker
Because.
01:02:43
Speaker
It could be that this protocol has been set up by a centralized company.
01:02:46
Speaker
So there are all these questions that I think about.
01:02:48
Speaker
But the point is, that's how I see it evolving.
01:02:51
Speaker
Right.
01:02:51
Speaker
So my certificate is no longer be a piece of paper, but an actual SBT tied to my digital identity, which is tied to a lot of other things.
01:03:00
Speaker
And I'm all for it.
01:03:01
Speaker
I'm all for it because with that, I can do so much more than I'm able to do now.
01:03:06
Speaker
Right.
01:03:07
Speaker
Let me give you a very simple example with the qualifications I've earned.
01:03:10
Speaker
Right.
01:03:11
Speaker
You have to renew them on an animal basis.
01:03:14
Speaker
Now, whether you renew or not, your employer many times has no idea.
01:03:18
Speaker
You might have come in with a valid certificate.
01:03:23
Speaker
A year later, you've decided not to renew because that's your choice.
01:03:26
Speaker
The employer doesn't know, which also means you're then not allowed to do in many instances, not all what you're doing.
01:03:32
Speaker
Now, it's a very simple fix with SBTs.
01:03:35
Speaker
Where SBTs are being tracked, they're dynamic.
01:03:37
Speaker
You update them if you have completed certain continuing professional education, like you need to complete certain things on a yearly basis.
01:03:44
Speaker
If it's done, it's done.
01:03:46
Speaker
If not, your access is revoked.
01:03:48
Speaker
Or there's at least a notification to the company.
01:03:51
Speaker
Now they have zero idea because the education provider is not linked to each and every company in the world.
01:03:57
Speaker
Now we no longer need that notification.
01:03:59
Speaker
link because all of us have a single SPT, for instance, that tracks all of this.
01:04:05
Speaker
And when I go to Newcastle… Yeah, and it brings a lot of transparency and a lot of automation and, yeah.
01:04:11
Speaker
And accountability.
01:04:12
Speaker
We're going back to accountability.
01:04:14
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:15
Speaker
Yeah, definitely a lot of hope.
01:04:16
Speaker
Okay, there's one last thing that I would love to actually get your thoughts on.
01:04:21
Speaker
Because being in France, being in Europe, every single person that I talked to, because for a time, we were supposed to go incorporate in Dubai, because that was a very...
01:04:32
Speaker
It was a solution that made a lot of sense.
01:04:35
Speaker
And every single person that we told this was like, if you're going to incorporate in Dubai, then you're going to have a negative connotation when you're
01:04:47
Speaker
like telling this to the public in our Western world.
01:04:52
Speaker
And I have a feeling that things are about to change because now the US is taking some very interesting steps with regards to regulation and with crypto.
01:05:04
Speaker
And you have currents in Europe as well that are also questionable.
01:05:10
Speaker
And then you have places like Dubai that
01:05:13
Speaker
embrace it, that embrace innovation and that embrace the, that see where this is going and that are, and the UK as well, that are doing a lot of things to, to attract talent.
01:05:24
Speaker
And so how do you, you being in Dubai and you having lived most of your life in Dubai, how do you see this evolving in the next few years?
01:05:33
Speaker
And how do you feel about all that?
Dubai's Tech Hub Ambitions and AI Integration
01:05:35
Speaker
In short, I absolutely freaking love it.
01:05:39
Speaker
The interesting thing, right?
01:05:41
Speaker
There's a lot of attention to Dubai now.
01:05:43
Speaker
Guess what?
01:05:45
Speaker
Back in 2017, 2018, it was already an intention of Dubai to be the blockchain hub of the world.
01:05:53
Speaker
Back in 2017, 2018, mind you, where
01:05:56
Speaker
they were already establishing regulations back then, right?
01:05:59
Speaker
They were already either not establishing, but at least had set up task forces or groups or whatever to set up, right?
01:06:08
Speaker
2017, where we didn't think there was going to be institutional adoption, where all these brands that are coming into space now, you know, weren't even there, didn't exist.
01:06:16
Speaker
It was a lot more degen than it was now, right?
01:06:20
Speaker
But back then Dubai had already announced it.
01:06:22
Speaker
So,
01:06:23
Speaker
I knew since then Dubai is going to be a key player in this.
01:06:27
Speaker
There is negative connotation that hasn't gone away for many years.
01:06:34
Speaker
It may not go away.
01:06:35
Speaker
I mean, the way I see it, there's a lot of political sentiments tied to it and political reasons to have that almost veil of distrust because no country likes the money leaving.
01:06:46
Speaker
Right.
01:06:46
Speaker
So there's a lot of political reasons for it.
01:06:50
Speaker
There's a lot of cultural reasons for it.
01:06:52
Speaker
People who believe certain things are right or wrong and people here that believe certain things are right or wrong.
01:06:58
Speaker
It is what it is.
01:06:59
Speaker
The point is, you know, innovation is not going to stop.
01:07:04
Speaker
It doesn't matter which country it is.
01:07:05
Speaker
Like whatever you could say about the U.S. and there was a lot of shit levied against the U.S. since forever.
01:07:11
Speaker
I mean, it's not been a clean slate on everything, right?
01:07:14
Speaker
There's always been these pain points, these flashpoints, etc.
01:07:17
Speaker
But innovation continued and continued and continued.
01:07:21
Speaker
Now, I'll be honest, as much as I diss the US and what they're doing, I still think there will be a lot of innovation despite all of this.
01:07:33
Speaker
Because if you want to do something, you're going to do it.
01:07:36
Speaker
Yes, you might try and find a more friendly jurisdiction sometimes, but you still want to do it.
01:07:42
Speaker
And many times you still want to do it where you are comfortable at the very least.
01:07:47
Speaker
This is home, so I want to do it here.
01:07:49
Speaker
I'm Indian, but I want to do what I'm doing here in Dubai, nowhere else in the world.
01:07:54
Speaker
I do not care what happens in Dubai.
01:07:57
Speaker
I just want to do it in Dubai.
01:07:59
Speaker
right?
01:07:59
Speaker
There's almost that sense of home, right?
01:08:02
Speaker
And you want to, I think there's a lot of these things behind the layers, you know, behind the forefront that will make innovation continue in the US.
01:08:11
Speaker
It'll be harder, no doubt.
01:08:14
Speaker
But I see Dubai.
01:08:16
Speaker
I mean, so you were telling me about negative sentiments and this is my personal sentiment.
01:08:20
Speaker
Forget my personal sentiment.
01:08:22
Speaker
There's Jason Calacanis who runs This Week in Startups, the podcast and the All in Podcast.
01:08:28
Speaker
I'm very well connected in the whole investing ecosystem.
01:08:31
Speaker
Him and who's the other guy?
01:08:34
Speaker
I'm forgetting.
01:08:35
Speaker
Two of them came to one of the funds over here.
01:08:38
Speaker
They had a...
01:08:39
Speaker
seminar, a talk, whatever.
01:08:42
Speaker
And they're already pinning Dubai to be the future Silicon Valley of the world.
01:08:47
Speaker
And it's almost going to happen.
01:08:50
Speaker
I mean, at least the people here, people like me, believe it's going to happen.
01:08:54
Speaker
We've seen the building blocks for it, you know, just being built slowly and surely.
01:08:59
Speaker
And now it's all coming out in full force.
01:09:01
Speaker
There's a lot of money.
01:09:02
Speaker
There's the infrastructure.
01:09:05
Speaker
What I mean by that, like literally roads and buildings sort of infrastructure.
01:09:08
Speaker
Then you have positive regulations, not just crypto, but AI.
01:09:12
Speaker
Like AI came out next.
01:09:13
Speaker
Do you know there was a minister of AI long before AI was a fad?
01:09:18
Speaker
In Dubai?
01:09:19
Speaker
Yeah.
01:09:20
Speaker
No, that's...
01:09:21
Speaker
Like we're talking about AI now.
01:09:23
Speaker
There was a minister of AI for the past two years.
01:09:25
Speaker
I know last year for sure, but I know actually even before that.
01:09:28
Speaker
So, I mean, we think ahead.
01:09:31
Speaker
Here, the government and the people, we like to think ahead.
01:09:34
Speaker
I mean, it's no stroke of luck that Dubai has got to where it has in 50 years.
01:09:42
Speaker
In just 50 years ago, this was just a desert.
01:09:46
Speaker
And I mean it.
01:09:46
Speaker
I mean, I've been here for 30 of those 50 years.
01:09:49
Speaker
Right.
01:09:50
Speaker
And I've seen what's happened in my lifetime of 30 years.
01:09:54
Speaker
And I can't imagine what's going to happen in the next 30.
01:09:56
Speaker
But there are always investors.
01:09:57
Speaker
It's going to be an interesting journey for sure.
01:09:59
Speaker
Yeah.
01:09:59
Speaker
I mean, it's not just me, right?
01:10:01
Speaker
All these investors are also looking at it.
01:10:03
Speaker
People have, like now, Sequoia, they published a report where these funds out of UAE and Saudi are the liquidity providers, are the people funding the big VCs in the U.S. like Sequoia and A16Z, etc.
01:10:17
Speaker
Right.
01:10:19
Speaker
So there is a lot of hand in front or behind the scenes because we want to innovate.
01:10:24
Speaker
I mean, there is that culture of innovation here and it's growing.
01:10:28
Speaker
I wouldn't say it's still Silicon Valley.
01:10:30
Speaker
I mean, we're a long way away from that, but it's growing.
01:10:33
Speaker
You go to the cafes here, these co-working spaces and the buzz and the energy with each people together.
01:10:40
Speaker
with each person building their own thing, working in a startup, whatever, there's that constant buzz.
01:10:46
Speaker
So I'm all excited for it, to be honest.
01:10:48
Speaker
And I mean, all I can do is tell you to come here.
01:10:50
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think I can.
01:10:52
Speaker
I don't think I can.
01:10:53
Speaker
Because one, it doesn't really, I'm very aligned with my values.
01:10:59
Speaker
And I have very strong humane values.
01:11:01
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
01:11:02
Speaker
And I heavily respect the push for innovation and the money that is being invested.
01:11:09
Speaker
But I can't forget some of the sides, like the other side of the coin on that regard.
01:11:15
Speaker
And I don't see myself living in Dubai.
01:11:19
Speaker
I know that my girlfriend would never move to Dubai.
01:11:23
Speaker
It doesn't align with me personally.
01:11:24
Speaker
I don't judge it.
01:11:25
Speaker
My friend is a top executive at Halfbrick, the game studio.
01:11:32
Speaker
He's been living in Dubai and he loves it.
01:11:35
Speaker
I'm pretty sure that if you'd hit me at 24 or 25,
01:11:42
Speaker
I would have moved to Dubai in a heartbeat and I would have lived there for a few years and I would have probably loved it.
01:11:48
Speaker
It doesn't align with who I am at the moment.
01:11:51
Speaker
I will definitely visit.
01:11:52
Speaker
I will definitely go because I know that things are always just the way they are at a certain point in time and that...
01:12:00
Speaker
I hope that Dubai learns from the backlash that they sometimes receive.
01:12:05
Speaker
I believe that a new version of capitalism is possible.
01:12:08
Speaker
And so I hope that we move towards this.
01:12:11
Speaker
And if we don't, and if they don't, that's just the way it is.
01:12:14
Speaker
We live in a world where everyone's just going to be who they are.
01:12:16
Speaker
And it's okay.
01:12:19
Speaker
And it's okay.
01:12:20
Speaker
You know, it's interesting that you said it because...
01:12:24
Speaker
That was one of the points I alluded to that.
01:12:26
Speaker
I know my own brother, you know, born and brought up just like me, doesn't see himself living in Dubai anymore.
01:12:32
Speaker
He's in Amsterdam now and has been living there for four years and he just doesn't want to come back.
01:12:38
Speaker
Right.
01:12:38
Speaker
And there's a certain way of living that he is used to, which is fine, which I respect.
01:12:45
Speaker
You know, you know what you want and you know what you don't want.
01:12:48
Speaker
And if a certain country doesn't align with it,
01:12:51
Speaker
then it is what it is.
01:12:52
Speaker
And that goes back to my point, right?
01:12:54
Speaker
That that's exactly what I was mentioning.
01:12:57
Speaker
That's exactly what I was saying, that people want to be where they're comfortable because that's when the best work is going to come out.
01:13:02
Speaker
So there's no point that for them to even think about moving despite what the government is doing.
01:13:09
Speaker
As long as they have the trust that, okay, things will happen.
01:13:12
Speaker
I mean, things will fix itself somehow or the other.
01:13:15
Speaker
So lots of headwinds, but a lot of tailwinds as well, depending on where you see, which part of the world, and how you see things.
01:13:25
Speaker
So I'm all excited for this.
01:13:27
Speaker
And with AI coming along, it's even more fascinating.
01:13:30
Speaker
For me, it's like...
01:13:32
Speaker
AI, to me, sorry, I mean, going completely off topic, but it's something.
01:13:38
Speaker
There's no off topic here.
01:13:39
Speaker
Everything's on topic.
01:13:40
Speaker
So knock yourself out.
01:13:42
Speaker
Good.
01:13:42
Speaker
Because to me, I've been having a lot of conversations on this and looking.
01:13:47
Speaker
And I mean, I play with a lot of AI tools on a daily basis, helps in my work, in whatever we're doing.
01:13:53
Speaker
I helped my dad set up his ChatGVD Pro account because he realized his boss is using ChatGVD Pro.
01:14:01
Speaker
And he's like, okay, cool.
01:14:02
Speaker
I got to use it too.
01:14:04
Speaker
But to me, AI and Web3 are just so closely connected that that's the future I'm excited for.
01:14:11
Speaker
Where I see AI being the front end of Web3 that hasn't existed till now.
01:14:16
Speaker
And
01:14:17
Speaker
blockchain, core blockchain being the necessary element in AI to identify right from wrong, right?
01:14:28
Speaker
Because what is blockchain?
01:14:30
Speaker
I mean, immutable, transparent and all of those things, right?
01:14:33
Speaker
Well, how do you know if some AI content, picture, video, or absolutely anything is who they say they are?
01:14:42
Speaker
Well, you're going to know that because let's say it's connected to your digital identity, right?
01:14:46
Speaker
which is on the blockchain, boom.
01:14:49
Speaker
Now you no longer worry about defects and all of those other things.
01:14:52
Speaker
You no longer worry about content.
01:14:55
Speaker
It's perfect.
01:14:55
Speaker
It's just a match.
01:14:57
Speaker
Like it's a match made in heaven.
01:14:59
Speaker
And that's what I'm excited about.
01:15:01
Speaker
So I am playing a lot with AI, probably researching a lot more in AI now than blockchain, but not with this hype mentality where, oh, you know, I've suddenly become, gone from a,
01:15:13
Speaker
You know, Web3 influencer to an AI influencer, like a lot of people have.
01:15:17
Speaker
Please don't be that guy.
01:15:17
Speaker
No, please.
01:15:18
Speaker
You're better than that.
01:15:22
Speaker
But it's about, okay, how can these two technologies collide?
01:15:27
Speaker
in a better- And complement each other.
01:15:29
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
01:15:30
Speaker
Complementing each other and just provide a better experience for everybody involved.
01:15:34
Speaker
So what are your thoughts though on it?
01:15:36
Speaker
I'm a stoic.
01:15:38
Speaker
Okay.
01:15:38
Speaker
It is what it is.
01:15:41
Speaker
I got a little bit afraid.
01:15:42
Speaker
So my whole thing is, and that's the ecosystem that I'm building.
01:15:45
Speaker
My whole thing is I want to help further fair distribution of value in the world.
01:15:51
Speaker
And I want to help bridge the opportunity gap that exists in the world.
01:15:56
Speaker
this is like all of my life experiences have brought me to this.
01:16:01
Speaker
And, and I find myself in a position and surrounded by people who shared this vision for a better, basically capitalism.
01:16:11
Speaker
And when I saw AI, so I was really naive when I fell into web three in 2017, it was like, Holy shit.
01:16:19
Speaker
If we change the systems, everything's going to change like magic.
01:16:23
Speaker
And like,
01:16:24
Speaker
you got it from what I've said previously in this conversation.
01:16:29
Speaker
I have now become a little bit more pragmatic on that subject.
01:16:33
Speaker
And so when I saw AI,
01:16:35
Speaker
reach the level of depth and quote unquote intelligence as it has so fast.
01:16:42
Speaker
Like I wasn't expecting this before like 2035 or something because like other people who were very knowledgeable and subjects didn't.
01:16:51
Speaker
And so I had a moment where I was like, holy shit, this is going to fall into the hands of the wrong people who are going to harness it before the ones who really needed it.
01:17:02
Speaker
can get the most out of it.
01:17:04
Speaker
So that was, I don't know, like a month and a half ago or something.
01:17:08
Speaker
And now I'm back to being stoic.
01:17:12
Speaker
And my personal thing is I'm going to build an ecosystem.
01:17:16
Speaker
I'm going to help people level up and learn everything that is available to them.
01:17:21
Speaker
And I'm
01:17:23
Speaker
I don't plan on using my knowledge and my position to extract.
01:17:28
Speaker
I plan on using it to share and give back and to
01:17:34
Speaker
participate in creating actually decentralized environment and fear fueled.
01:17:41
Speaker
Like I also let, I'll still let that anxiety of, oh man, I don't want to like go too deep in that dystopian society.
01:17:50
Speaker
And I want to be a force for good in, in this world.
01:17:55
Speaker
So that's where I stand.
01:17:56
Speaker
It is important to have people like you who believe in the force of good and the fact that in the face of all these technologies that could almost harm us in so many different ways, there is still people doing good, propagating good and trying to uplift others.
01:18:18
Speaker
I think as we go along, right, I have seen more and more the need,
01:18:26
Speaker
for people to be good.
01:18:27
Speaker
I mean, it almost circles back to the start of a conversation where, again, just empathy, right?
01:18:34
Speaker
And just understanding because we are becoming more and more siloed.
01:18:40
Speaker
Now with AI, for instance, instead of a team of five, it's going to be a team of two.
01:18:45
Speaker
So there's instantly three people out.
01:18:47
Speaker
Now it's just one-to-one between these two people, right?
01:18:50
Speaker
So it's no longer a team, it's just a duo, for instance, right?
01:18:53
Speaker
With the technologies like the metaverse,
01:18:55
Speaker
It's going to be more siloed.
01:18:57
Speaker
I'm going to be in my house and doing whatever I'm supposed to do that I would have done outside in real life.
01:19:03
Speaker
I'll be doing that outside of, you know, in my home.
01:19:06
Speaker
The way I see it is going to individualize each person, right?
01:19:11
Speaker
Because they're no longer interacting.
01:19:13
Speaker
They're no longer interacting.
01:19:15
Speaker
being in the presence of others.
01:19:16
Speaker
They're no longer behaving with others like they used to, right?
01:19:21
Speaker
It's all through a screen, it's through a camera, it's through whatever headset device there is.
01:19:26
Speaker
So there will need to be people, on the other hand, who still show the good that, hey, it is still a community and we can align with each other and we do not have to be individualistic.
01:19:38
Speaker
We do not have to be singular.
01:19:39
Speaker
We can still be so much more if we do things together, work together, you know, have fun together.
01:19:45
Speaker
Like, I mean, you asked me and I didn't answer, but like what I'm looking to do with whatever I am is just have more in-person communication and networking.
01:19:58
Speaker
To me, if I would have done anything different about this conversation was to have this face-to-face, right?
01:20:06
Speaker
I mean, as brilliant as this conversation was, I know we would have had a much more brilliant conversation face-to-face.
01:20:14
Speaker
And I've seen it in my personal interactions.
01:20:16
Speaker
So to me, I'm going against this whole need to be in your home and do everything from home or from a single place and see people through a screen.
01:20:28
Speaker
I want people to be more inside each other's presence.
01:20:33
Speaker
and to feel the magic that happens there.
01:20:35
Speaker
I love this.
01:20:35
Speaker
To me, that is it.
01:20:37
Speaker
Whatever I'm doing, it's literally me taking offline, online communications.
01:20:43
Speaker
As soon as I can, I'm just like, let's
Conclusion and Future Collaborations
01:20:46
Speaker
grab a coffee.
01:20:46
Speaker
Let's get a drink.
01:20:48
Speaker
Let's go for dinner.
01:20:49
Speaker
And there's nothing that I like more.
01:20:51
Speaker
That's awesome.
01:20:52
Speaker
I actually think, yeah, I actually think this is the perfect way to, like, to conclude this.
01:20:58
Speaker
And it's very necessary.
01:21:00
Speaker
And, and,
01:21:02
Speaker
I hope I can, I can help you in achieving that.
01:21:05
Speaker
Before we, before we close this off, how, how do people reach you?
01:21:10
Speaker
And is there anything that you want to plug right now that you want people to know about what you're doing and where they can check it out?
01:21:17
Speaker
Yeah, you can reach out to me on Twitter, 10-8-Eth.
01:21:22
Speaker
I can drop the link or you can drop it too.
01:21:25
Speaker
And we're building Collider, I mean, with the same focus, like I said, we just want to increase more in-person networking.
01:21:32
Speaker
So...
01:21:33
Speaker
You can check out Collider Web3 on Twitter.
01:21:36
Speaker
Apart from that, I mean, you can check me out through Polymath.
01:21:41
Speaker
If you know him, you know me.
01:21:43
Speaker
If you know him, you know everything I'm up to because I do think we're going to have lots more conversations and we're going to have so many more things.
01:21:52
Speaker
This has been brilliant.
01:21:53
Speaker
Thank you so much.
01:21:54
Speaker
Yeah, my pleasure.
01:21:55
Speaker
Thanks for being here.
01:21:56
Speaker
The expectation I had, I mean, this has just surpassed all those expectations and the levels at which we connected.
01:22:03
Speaker
I can't wait to have another one of these conversations recorded or not.
01:22:07
Speaker
I mean, I think probably not recorded the next time.
01:22:10
Speaker
In real life.
01:22:11
Speaker
Not recorded for sure.
01:22:12
Speaker
Because during this whole conversation, I've thought, because right now in this ecosystem that I've mentioned a couple of times, we're onboarding a group of fantastic people.
01:22:23
Speaker
And there's...
01:22:24
Speaker
like between 15 and 20 who are becoming co-founders of this.
01:22:28
Speaker
And this whole time I've thought, holy, holy, holy, like I need to tell this guy because he, like one, there's no one around us that has your specific set of skills that I think are extremely important for what we're building.
01:22:41
Speaker
And your expertise would be extremely valuable.
01:22:45
Speaker
So that's going to be a big, maybe when this comes out, you'll have said no, you'll have said yes, who knows?
01:22:52
Speaker
But yeah, I definitely want to tell you more about this.
01:22:55
Speaker
And now I still, I do want to come to Dubai and now we've done more so that we can hang out, grab a coffee and get some work done.
01:23:03
Speaker
Or not, I'm coming to France.
01:23:04
Speaker
Yeah, please.
01:23:06
Speaker
So don't even, like my wife's been talking about coming back because we visited Amsterdam about a couple of years ago.
01:23:12
Speaker
And she does want to go back to Europe, meet my brother and my sister, both in Amsterdam, but, you know, go around.
01:23:18
Speaker
And France itself is becoming a key Web3 player with its incredible events, etc.
01:23:23
Speaker
Let's meet in Amsterdam, by the way.
01:23:25
Speaker
I miss Amsterdam.
01:23:26
Speaker
I love Amsterdam.
01:23:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
01:23:28
Speaker
Now let's do something.
01:23:30
Speaker
But thank you.
01:23:31
Speaker
This has been incredible.
01:23:32
Speaker
And I can't wait to see everything that you're going to do.
01:23:36
Speaker
And these conversations are going to continue.
01:23:38
Speaker
So we'll speak soon.
01:23:40
Speaker
Absolutely, man.
01:23:41
Speaker
Thanks so much.