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Trail Running Series: Environmentalism and Trail Running with Damian Hall
8.9k Plays1 year ago
Alyssa sits down with another special guest for the trail running series, professional runner, environmental activist and writer, Damian Hall. Damian has a wide variety of racing experience and success from a Spine Race Course Record, to a Pennine Way FKT and a 5th place finish at UTMB. He is also a coach, journalist and author of two books including We Can’t Run Away From This which examines the impact of running and racing on the climate crisis. The two discuss Damian’s trail running journey alongside his environmental activism. They dive into the balance of choosing goal races while reducing environmental impact. Damian also gives advice on reducing waste in gear, nutrition and hydration and how to make running as sustainable as possible. The two wrap up discussing the future implications of environmental disasters as well as the importance of advocating and taking a stance to change environmental policies for future generations.
If you are interested in learning more about Damian’s initiatives and joining the organization he co founded, check out thegreenrunners.com
If you would like to learn more about uphill athlete, please visit uphillathlete.com or write to us at [email protected]
https://bit.ly/43wuU7L
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the uphill athlete podcast. Our mission is to elevate and inspire all mountain athletes through education and celebration. My name is Alyssa Clark, and I will be your host today. We are thrilled to welcome trail running legend and environmental activist Damien Hall onto the podcast.
00:00:26
Speaker
Damien has a wide variety of racing experiences and success from a spine race course record to a pedine way FKT and a fifth place finish at UTMB. He's also a coach journalist and author of two books, including we can't run away from this, which examines the impact of running and racing on the climate crisis. Damien, thanks for being on the podcast. Hi, thank you. Thank you so much for having me and thank you for that lovely introduction.
00:00:52
Speaker
Oh, of course. Well, I have to little caveat. I messed up the time zone as happens with across. So I have to be extra nice. Um, also I did not realize that you had such a strong, um, journalism writing background, which is really cool to see. That's kind of what my background is as well.
00:01:11
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that's sort of, I've sort of swapped out of it now. I've sort of gone from, yeah, gone from being a journalist to an athlete. But in the early days, that was really helpful, partly to get free entries to big expensive races. Like, as you will know, like, the fee for writing the story often never even matches the kind of the time away or the travel costs maybe, but you get, you know, a free entry to
00:01:38
Speaker
you know, a big race. But also, I think back now, it really helped me make sure I finished them because sometimes it meant there'd be no story unless unless it was a success, especially one magazine I wrote for, they wanted essentially some sort of success story, you know. So so it made quite a bit of extra pressure on me to sort of, yeah, come home with a story, which I do think helped me a bit earlier.
Journey from Journalism to Ultra Running
00:02:02
Speaker
Oh, that's so funny. I hadn't thought of that together. I guess there's only so many. Well, I gave it my best shot and it didn't work out stories that they want. Um, so yeah, how did you get your start in ultra running? And then also what really you're so much of a leader and a champion of the environmental movement. How did that become such an integral part of your messaging and your mission in the trail running world? Well, um,
00:02:33
Speaker
Gosh, yeah, that's a lot. Sorry, that's a lot. I suppose I've been running ultra marathons for, what is it, 11 years. I wasn't really much of a runner before that. I really enjoyed what you guys call soccer. But I was also a sort of long distance hiker, the trekker, and I did a bit of mountaineering. So I love being, I suppose, big days out in, you know, in lumpy places.
00:02:59
Speaker
near mountains or in around mountains. I loved that. I just didn't realise there were many sports in those areas. I suppose I was aware of skiing, but never really got the opportunity to do that much. But then it was actually, yeah, 2011, I signed up for a half marathon.
00:03:17
Speaker
was feeling a bit unfit and just loved it and then realised, you know, mayors will try a marathon, just curious about what that felt like, you know, was that possible for me? And then it was actually a magazine that sent me on my first ultramarathon because I was nagging them to take a story from me about this new thing I'd found, which was amazing and life changing called running. And they said, OK, we'll send you on an ultramarathon. And I was a bit like, oh, you know, oh, you know, what's that?
00:03:41
Speaker
Um, but obviously it was painful, et cetera, and had all the highs and lows you'd expect, but just loved it. And by the end, I thought this is for me. I want to do more of these. Um, and I suppose over the following years got, got quite carried away, um, to the extent as we all do. Yes. I mean, four years later, I was in the GB trail running team at the age of I think 40, 40, 40, I think. Um,
00:04:06
Speaker
So yeah, I really got into it. I just loved it. I had a coach quite early. And then I suppose, yeah, along around then I did get a bit of an obsession with UTMB, did it four years in a row, sort of improving each time. And that was my big, that was my obsession. And then I sort of, yeah, moved on a bit.
Achieving Running Records and Environmental Activism
00:04:28
Speaker
And yeah, 2020 lockdown,
00:04:31
Speaker
lockdown year was actually pretty exciting here. We had a lot of FKTs happening in Britain. What did you want to say? It was incredible to watch. We actually had John on the podcast and he said, Oh, if you ever want to gain a lot of traction in the UK podcast scene, just put the two of us on. They love it.
00:04:52
Speaker
Well, yeah, we became something of, I don't know, a double act or a bromance. I'd already met John a few times because he actually lived quite near me. But obviously, during lockdown, we couldn't actually see each other. But because our races were cancelled, he'd already told me he was going to go for the Pennine Way record. And I must admit, it had been on my mind for a long time, but I hadn't had the courage, if I'm honest. And I'd always kind of thought, well, I'll do this race first.
00:05:23
Speaker
I don't have time for it, but when I saw John had the courage to go for it, and then suddenly we had no races, I thought, I'll go for it too. And I actually always thought I'd go for it before him, but the dates didn't work and he ended up going first. And he broke, the record has stood for 30 years. And I still feel a bit, well, he had the last laugh, but yeah, he broke it. And then I only went eight days later and broke his record, which still feels a bit mean. But he had the last laugh because the following year he came back
00:05:51
Speaker
He came back and broke it. And I have had to go trying to re-break it once last year. And yeah, that was unsuccessful, let's say. But yeah, there was a film made by our friends. It's called Totally FKT. So yeah, we've had a lot of fun together, which is carried on. And we're quite, I don't know, we're very different characters actually. But yeah, we've got a lot in common. I hope he still likes me. I think we're good friends. Oh, he does. He does. Definitely.
00:06:20
Speaker
But, yeah, he really shook the scene up a bit, actually, when he came over here. And, you know, the things he was planning to think he was doing were just things none of us really had contemplated, like his grand round idea was just epic, you know, and no one was considering that. And so, yeah, we had a lot of fun. Yeah, 2020, 2021.
00:06:45
Speaker
et cetera. I suppose, yeah, to get back to your question, my more environmentalism, I suppose, came in more recently, probably from mid-late 2019. We have a group over here. I don't know how well they're known in America, but they're called Extinction Rebellion. They will have American sort of branches, I'm sure, but probably not as big. And they started doing these incredible protests in London and sort of stopping the traffic and
00:07:14
Speaker
But they're all dressed up in great fancy dress and they'll be singing songs and they have big pink boats in the middle of the street. And it was just so compelling and it was so well organized and you kind of thought they really know what they're doing. And I hadn't realized, I suppose I hadn't really realized like a lot of people quite how urgent our global situation is.
00:07:33
Speaker
and quite how reluctant our government anyway are to, I suppose, stop subsidizing fossil fuels for starters. They're not doing the things that the scientists are telling us we need to do really urgently. But even then, I couldn't see how it related to running, I suppose. You kind of saw polar bears in the Arctic and you kind of thought, well, I'm just running around in the fields and hills around here. It's not related. And then it was actually some friends of mine who had a little
00:08:02
Speaker
charity called rerun clothing and they were explaining that sort of well firstly all the all the free race t-shirts were a huge cost to the planet and then they were finding they set up a sort of they tried to get new homes for all these t-shirts that no one wanted that everyone had for free and then they realized all the shoes were a massive problem as well because we're all sort of chucking shoes out too soon brands are telling us 300 miles throw them out and that you know that that that's well it's clearly a myth
00:08:31
Speaker
And so they were sounding the alarm saying there's loads of unwanted kit is a huge waste crisis. And the actual crisis is before the kit gets to you because all our clothes release emissions to be produced. And it just made me think, I suppose, I mean, around that time I started joining in protest, but it made me think, okay, I'm an athlete and I'm flying around the world for races and I'm showing off my new kit on Instagram and things like that. And just kind of thinking, oh,
00:08:59
Speaker
I suppose learning as much as I could and realizing, I don't know, that wasn't sitting well with me. They weren't appropriate behaviors for me at that time. It's taken some time to sort of work out where the key areas are to change and what's realistic and what's fair even. I mean, I fly a lot. Yeah, I fly a lot less. I went three years without a flight, but I did take a flight this year. And that's a whole, you know, that's a hard debate to have.
00:09:27
Speaker
because it doesn't seem fair that we should all stop flying, but we probably could all do a bit better. And then more recently, I was encouraged to write this book, and then almost exactly a year ago, actually, we launched, me and some other friends, including Jasmine Paris, launched The Green Runners, which is
00:09:46
Speaker
Yeah, been a wild success actually. We're approaching a thousand members all around the world and that's been really exciting and just feels, I don't know, it's quite scary, this climate breakdown stuff. Yes, I totally agree. Yeah and if nothing else, well there are lots of things that the Green Runners are helping with I think and useful for but
00:10:10
Speaker
Also, it just feels comforting to know there are other people who are worried about this stuff, who aren't perfect, but they're trying, and you can get together. And even if it's having a chat and sharing concerns or sharing some new information or something, it's been really good on lots of levels.
00:10:29
Speaker
I know you've got a couple of organizations in America as well doing doing great things. But yeah, I do just think running running is part of the problem and running is suffering from from climate breakdown. But but hopefully it can lead to some good outcomes. Absolutely. You've touched on a lot of things that I want to expand upon. But no, it's yeah, there's a lot of existential crisis that I feel thinking about all these things. So now I'm glad you're voicing them. And it
00:10:59
Speaker
There is so much that we can do. And I guess building off of that when we are building a racing schedule.
00:11:08
Speaker
when we're figuring out our travel impact, how do you go about deciding what races are important to you, how you're going to get there and be what do you recommend for other athletes? It's something I think about a lot. I mean, there is kind of the carbon offsetting of paying extra money when you're flying. But is that enough?
Balancing Travel and Environmental Concerns
00:11:28
Speaker
You know, how do you go about travel and racing schedules?
00:11:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great question and a great dilemma. I think firstly, I'm reluctant to sort of point fingers or be too preachy about it. And like I say, I took a flight to zero, flew to America and back. So that's a huge amount of emissions. But what I've come up with after speaking to some other people in sustainability, including a professor over here, Mike Berners-Lee, who's quite influential here. He's done a great book, by the way, called How Bad Are Bananas?
00:12:02
Speaker
which is worth a look. We came up with like a three-point checklist, really. I suppose it's, first of all, ask yourself, how important is it? How important is that event, whether it's a race or anything in your life, how important is it to be there? Obviously, a wedding or something like that. To me, that's so important to be there in most cases. Do you need to be there? Then the next question is, what's the best way you could travel there? What's the lowest carbon way?
00:12:29
Speaker
you could realistically travel there. Because I mean, yeah, we can all, we can all, you know, sail or walk, but it might take years. It's not quite that fair to expect that in every scenario. But we're realistic. What can we do better? And there's a hierarchy of different travel. Obviously, flying is the worst and running is the best. But actually, I didn't realize to more recently say sharing a car with four people actually is
00:13:00
Speaker
is about as good as a train journey. And that's pretty low carbon, low carbon actually. So car sharing or lift sharing is actually a pretty good way to travel. Obviously, benefits electric, but that's still rare. And then the third question is, if you're gonna make the trip, how can you make more out of the trip? How can you maximize the trip? Is it staying longer? Is it combining it with some work somehow or a visit to a friend? Like for example, when Jasmine Paris flew out to the Berkeley,
00:13:28
Speaker
marathons recently she was able to visit her brother in new york sort of thing so that that that shares the the emissions makes it a more worthwhile journey um so those are the three the three questions for me how important is it what's the best way you can realistic travel there how can you make the most from the trip um so yeah beyond that i wouldn't be too finger-pointy about other people and um
00:13:55
Speaker
And yeah, I flew this year, I decided one event was so important, but to me, and yeah, you'd get some people think that's fine and some people think it's not fine. And you sort of, yeah, can't please everyone. Can't please everyone. But I feel like I've made other, I suppose, other sacrifices elsewhere in my life. I've turned away a lot of very exciting race trips and so on. And yeah, made other, I've gone full annoying vegan, for example, that doesn't make it okay to fly around the world, but I have reduced my own footprint where I can.
00:14:24
Speaker
And then really, I do think, I imagine we'll get to this maybe later, but I'll jump the shark a bit. And to me, pushing for system change is more important than your own personal footprint because, yeah, if you're, I don't know, if you're cutting down on red meat, but a coal mine opens up down the road, that was much worse than you having a sausage. So yeah, that pushing, trying to think of the bigger picture, I suppose joining organizations
00:14:51
Speaker
in trying to improve things, nudging brands. To me, that's more important. That's where I'd urge people to concentrate. Oh, that's really helpful to have that breakdown of just thinking about it because the answer might be, yes, this is very important to me and here's how I'm going to do it. My husband and I, so we lived in Italy for a couple of years and we're big mountain people. You very much see the impact on the glaciers and it's really,
00:15:18
Speaker
Terrifying and so we both went plant based. I had been previously off and on in 2020 and but then you kind of start really looking into the details of it and
00:15:32
Speaker
start to wonder how much it is an individual making an impact. Because we truly we only can do like if everyone didn't care, then nothing would change. Like, you know, there's a circular argument. But how do you go about working on policy and also making these changes of being vegan, etc.
00:15:51
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a great question. It's right at the heart of what should we do? You know, if we care, what is it we do? Do we make sure we do our recycling or do we hit the streets and protest? I've thought about this a lot and it's kind of what I debated in my book a bit as well. And also what the Green Runners is sort of about. And we came up with basically kind of four pillars. It's kind of how you move, how you travel, how you kit up.
00:16:21
Speaker
because our kit can be can be a big part of the problem. So it's sort of I suppose buying less and making it last longer where possible. How you how you fuel, because yeah, you know, we need to globally reduce meat, dairy consumption, surprisingly big cost to the planet. But then the fourth pillar, to me is the most important one is how you speak up.
00:16:42
Speaker
And one of my favorite climate scientists, actually, I think she's based in America, but she's Canadian, Professor Catherine Hayhoe. She says talking about it is the most important thing we can do. Now, to me, that doesn't mean, hey, we have a chat about it, so we've done enough. But to me, it implies it's, yeah, it's nudging for bigger change. So I honestly don't care if someone flies five times a year. If they join in a climate protest, I mean, I'll love them for that. I think that's the most important thing to do.
00:17:11
Speaker
join in a protest or use their platform, especially with athletes. I was shown a bit of research recently actually by, well, there's a group over there called the Eco athletes who I joined recently. They showed me some research that sports people are the most influential people of our time, which was both kind of terrifying, but also hugely empowering.
00:17:34
Speaker
I mean, they probably didn't mean trail runners. They probably meant, I suppose, you know, the top the top sports. It's us. It's us. Well, who knows? But but yeah, we have, you know, we have a platform and we have and also, if you're a trail runner, you probably already care about the outdoors.
00:17:51
Speaker
you would hope. So we've got a huge group of people who care about the right things if we can galvanise and use that community. And you do see it happening already. I like to think with the green runners, but over there you've got runners for public lands, isn't it, and protect our winters and organisations like that.
00:18:07
Speaker
I would honestly say, yeah, if you feel you have to fly five times a year, I don't hate you for it, but please join in the more broader, bigger picture stuff. That's where we can make a difference. Over here, I don't know if it works the same there, but I encourage people to email their MP about issues. Join in.
00:18:28
Speaker
join in protest, civil disobedience, ask, especially if you're a sponsored athlete or if you've got a preferred brand, ask that brand what they're doing. You know, you can do it politely, but but firmly, you know, what is it? You know, it's important that you guys show your, you know, reducing your footprint overall. What are you doing about it? Even your sports nutrition, you know, especially if you're a regular customer or you play your favorite brand, you know, just check in with them. Are you doing all you can, guys? Running events can have a huge
00:18:58
Speaker
huge amount of emissions actually. Actually, in my book, it was quite terrifying to say a big city marathon could have the same emissions as giving birth to 30 people and their entire lifetimes over 30 actually for the really big ones. So that was quite terrifying. Yeah. And most of that, I mean, what's good and bad is most of that would come from travel, especially if flights are involved.
00:19:19
Speaker
So it did come back to the flying. But yeah, most events could do better. In Britain anyway, there's a lot of concentration on, I suppose, reducing plastic waste, reducing T-shirt waste, which is great, but they're not the biggest factors, it's the travel. I was just giving a talk at the London Marathon recently, actually, and yeah, I mean, they do some things well, but they're not, we call it the elephant in the room, they're not considering the elephant in the room of limiting, perhaps, international,
00:19:49
Speaker
you know, runners, which sounds a bit unfair, but it's kind of where we are. So yeah, I mean, there's also so there are so many options. I say if you were to use the states, for example, you know, we have Chicago, we have New York, we have Boston. There are there is a lot of amazing races to have happen here. But yeah, that Wow, that puts it into perspective.
00:20:14
Speaker
Yeah. And there was part of me thinking, well, you can't even have these events anymore. How can you justify that? But then you look back and you remember how inspiring these events can be, how life changing. Even for someone watching, it might change their life. It might save their life, you know. But they could probably all be done better. But what I don't like, I've been a bit
00:20:33
Speaker
I've been a bit sort of, what's the word? I haven't been very outspoken about this yet. But what I don't like is things like the Abbott's world marathon majors, where I think it's six marathons around the world, but they're trying to add more. They're trying to add places in China, places in Australia. And then people are encouraged to sort of complete the set. Now, it's all right. I want to be a bit careful because I've done I've done marathon to Sabla. I've flown a fair bit in my life. I'm well into my 40s. I've seen a lot of the world. I'm very lucky.
00:21:01
Speaker
Um, so I don't want to say other people shouldn't see the world. That doesn't seem fair, but I don't love these new global and UTMB are doing very similar, you know, creating a global sister series where there's pressure to make sure you, you know, yeah. Um, almost to qualify for a certain race. Some in some scenarios you have to travel abroad. You may well be flying. I don't think that's great. Um, yeah, I don't think that really fits with our time.
00:21:30
Speaker
Um, but I said, yeah, with the caveat that, you know, I, in the past I've, I'm lucky I've seen a lot of the world. So I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to get guilt trip on individuals for that, but I don't think those, those organizations could be doing better or what are they doing about, you know, what can they do better to, to make less impact there, I suppose.
00:21:48
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think it's a great point where maybe you have just less incentivization of you have to complete the circle or, you know, just start looking at maybe putting more effort into what's around you and making that more visible.
00:22:01
Speaker
rather than trying to look at words. Yeah, it's tough because I mean, I've traveled quite a bit and that it's so enriching. I mean, it changes your life to see other cultures, to see other places, to understand in many ways that understanding that you get from seeing other areas is also what makes you more steadfast in trying to save what's here. But yeah, it's hard.
00:22:29
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's very true. And even in one of my other favourite climate scientists, Mike Berners-Lee, who I've already mentioned, I've read a couple of his books, and one of them, he does say travel is one of the greatest things we can do. And I, you know, I'm a parent, I want my kids to travel because I think it will make them better people, you know, especially seeing how the cultures, seeing how lucky we are in the West, especially.
00:22:51
Speaker
but yeah we may have to travel a little bit less or a little bit smarter but then again governments can do so much to improve that you know they just cut domestic tax on domestic flights in Britain for example to make them cheaper you know and that's that's exactly the opposite of what what we need to do and our trains are really expensive you know and
00:23:12
Speaker
It's like, well, that's the exact opposite way around. So that's what makes me angry, especially when individuals, and I've had other top athletes actually email, you message me and sort of say, I really want to travel more sustainably to this race, but look, it's 300 quid to do it the right way and 50 quid to fly. So that's not fair on us, is it? So yeah.
00:23:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I mean, my system change getting those things changed, I suppose. Absolutely. So let's go into more kind of talked a little bit of bigger picture picture. But how do you look at your actual you've talked a bit about kit about nutrition? How do you think about reducing waste in your everyday in
00:24:05
Speaker
What we use because so much of it is, you know, you use it for a little bit and then it rips, it tears or something or a single use nutrition. How, how do you go about, yeah, the kind of the smaller picture, the things we can do every day.
00:24:20
Speaker
Yeah, and I find this stuff pretty interesting because I think the obvious thing is that we see a lot of plastic waste on the floor, on the trails sometimes, on the hills, and a lot of our sports nutrition comes in plastic packaging. Some of it can be recycled, often gels can't be, although hopefully that's changing a little.
00:24:45
Speaker
And it can be tempting to think that's the worst thing, it's the plastic waste. And often it's not actually that. For example, like food waste overall is a far bigger problem globally. And actually most of that food waste happens in our homes because obviously the supermarkets don't, they don't want, they're losing money if they're doing that.
Environmental Impact of Running Gear and Diet
00:25:06
Speaker
So a lot of that happens in our homes. And I guess, yeah.
00:25:12
Speaker
Some of that is fairly self-explanatory to sort of fix, as in, you know, maybe buy a bit less or just, you know, go through the fridge and make sure there's nothing just about to go out of date, that type of stuff, or cook smaller portions or that sort of thing. Yeah, I don't think we need to sort of labour the point on that one, but yeah, food waste is a huge thing. And then I think the thing that
00:25:34
Speaker
upset me the most, actually, when I was researching the book is actually our kit. Oh, sorry, you guys call it gear, don't you gear? And actually, there's a lot of pain and impact caused in its creation, usually. So and I and, yeah, I won't depress people too much. But I didn't even know about like forever chemicals, forever chemicals, and micro
00:26:03
Speaker
micro it's not just micro plastics or even cotton t-shirts um micro fibers sorry so it's not just polyester and i don't know if you guys are aware of there that yeah there's a whole kind of crisis around every time we wash our clothes micro fibers are released into waterways and and they're they're definitely bad for wildlife we're not totally sure if they're bad for us but there's a pretty good chance they are um and they're clogging up the oceans etc um so our kit is is
00:26:28
Speaker
can be quite bad and then toxic dies. In the cotton industry, there's still child labour and slave labour at times, things like that. So it's pretty upsetting. Really the answer, I think for us as individuals is kind of, do we really need all that kit? Can we buy a bit less? Can we make it last longer? And that's something I've been trying to do. And I suppose as a sponsored athlete, there's a lot less, hey, look at my new kit going on.
00:26:57
Speaker
And I suppose I push back on my sponsor, innovate quite a lot, and kind of said, well, what are you doing about this? And I found for them, and I think, yeah, I mean, I think they've been pretty responsive. Some of this stuff does take some time, and some of it's very complicated, such as the micro, the whole microfiber thing is a huge trouble in the whole industry, the whole clothing world, like they're trying to figure that out, they're trying to do that better. It's not an easy fix.
00:27:29
Speaker
But yeah, kit can be a huge waste. But then again, you'll have more impact probably by saying to a race, actually, I don't want the t-shirt and, you know, do you need to give out these three t-shirts all the time every year, you know? And we have a group called, a friend of mine founded a group called Trees Not Teas. I think they are over there now. Yeah, they are. They're awesome. Yeah, no, they're doing really well, really, really sort of exploding.
00:27:57
Speaker
Yeah, it's a free thing that any race can sign up to giving people the option of planting a tree instead of taking a t-shirt. So yeah, I think actually the t-shirt waist is one of the most horrific things in a way. A t-shirt sounds quite innocent, but if there are thousands of wasted ones, it's quite bad. So they're probably the areas that trouble me.
00:28:21
Speaker
Yeah, it was just actually brought up to me. Do you have you done any research on race medals? Yes, actually, I couldn't find I couldn't find any. But they're seen as, yeah, potentially very wasteful as well. But yeah, I couldn't find it as there was lots on clothing, especially t shirts and jeans, there's lots of lots of research and poly polyester materials and stuff.
00:28:46
Speaker
And a lot of the race medals are made in China, which isn't in itself a sin, but there's probably some travel involved there. But yeah, some races here, they do some recycled ones or wooden ones that's more sustainable material, obviously. And then it's a similar thing of, do I need a medal?
00:29:05
Speaker
And I think in some scenarios, when I did, we were talking about Dragon's Back before we came on air, weren't we? And I've got a Dragon's Back t-shirt, which I'm proud of, and I wear it. The point is, if you're using it, that's OK. And I did take a medal from Tour de Gion and the spine race, and they'll be precious to me. But I don't need a medal for a local 10K. But I think it feels like, in trail running anyway, and in Britain, that message is getting out, and people are responding.
00:29:32
Speaker
And in some cases, it's going to make the race cheaper or hopefully less hassle for a race organizer, possibly, in the longer term.
00:29:41
Speaker
But yeah, they're another thing that we maybe don't need. Yeah, unfortunately, I mean, at least, yeah, and there's some metals that I have that mean a lot to me, but they're probably the least useful of all of the things. I mean, a t-shirt at least you could wear if it's one that you wear, but a metal, it's like, I don't go walking around with my metal all the time. Maybe I should start, but. Yeah. So when you're out for a day in the hills,
00:30:12
Speaker
What do you do? How does your nutrition look? How do you set it up so you are reducing waste and usage in that regard? Well, so to, to, to step, step back a bit, I did a, including that Pennine Way run when I broke John's record back in 2020, I tried to do it plastic waste free. I was also, I wasn't sort of fully plant based then, but I did the attempt
00:30:37
Speaker
as a plant, you know, with plant-based nutrition. But that was so much easier than the plastic. Trying not to have any plastic waste was really hard and I was doing things like
00:30:49
Speaker
you know, I only found one company that would make, you know, Chris, I was gonna say crisps, I think you call them chips, a big bag of chips, salt and vinegar chips, I love. And but there's only one company I could found who made like biodegradable packets. But then I drove I drove, like half an hour or more to find them to get them. So actually, that was counterproductive, because the emissions from my car, from a single person journey to get these crisp packets that might biodegrade, you know, who knows how long that would take. You know, that was
00:31:17
Speaker
Kind of pointless, really, because the emissions from the car were probably worse for the planet. And I tried really hard to, but then so much of our fruit and vegetables, although I must say sometimes fruit in a plastic packaging will mean that fruit will ripen later and therefore is less likely to be wasted.
00:31:38
Speaker
The plastic stuff isn't always as straightforward as we'd like. And actually, a paper bag can be worse than a plastic bag. It's usually more emissions to create it in the first place. And then often, if they get wet or they don't last, then it's kind of a waste as well. So I mean, plastic is a problem when we throw it away. If we keep using it, it actually can be really good material. But we've just got used to chucking things out, haven't we? And so much of our food just comes in plastic packaging that isn't much used to us.
00:32:11
Speaker
So I had a big experiment. This is like a three day run, you know, of trying to do it plastic free. I'd say I 98% achieved it. I think once or twice, like someone on the hill gave me, you know, gave me a snack that was from plastic packaging when I was sort of, you know, half awake and didn't realize till afterwards.
00:32:29
Speaker
But in terms of trying to do that every day, it's pretty much impossible. I mean, I must admit, I stopped working with one sponsor because they were a gel company, and I just didn't think they were taking it seriously. I didn't feel comfortable promoting them. But gels are very difficult because they're a liquid. It's very hard at the moment. There's not a viable, as far as I know. But there are some companies now that you send the packaging back to them, and they'll take care of it. So that's something. That's some progress. But they need to do it. They need to get loads together.
00:32:59
Speaker
to be able to do it. They just can't be five at a time or something. I think you need hundreds of thousands. So what am I doing to, yeah, produce waste on a daily level? I mean, I actually, from my research, it actually looked like going, going plant-based was actually a bigger impact reduction. Yeah. A bigger reduction of your emissions than, than some plastic packaging, which is still a problem. But actually with most food, the packaging and the transport actually is actually quite a small element usually of the overall footprint of food.
00:33:28
Speaker
So local beef, for example, it's a bit of a myth that local food is better for the environment. So like beef from down the road is still far worse than for us anyway, like tomatoes from Spain. I can send people to a website. The best website for all this stuff is called ourworldindata.org and that's an Oxford University four year research into sort of global food.
00:33:53
Speaker
I found it pretty interesting, and it pretty much turned me vegan, because it is the meat and the dairy that are the problem globally, the biggest problem. So there, to me, that's the area to concentrate on. And yeah, it's impossible to live without creating plastic waste, I think, or takes a huge unreasonable effort, I suppose. So again, that's where, as individuals, we can only do so much in our actions. And we need to sort of, I suppose, hassle and bother and nag.
00:34:22
Speaker
companies to do better, I think. Definitely. Yeah, I think that's yeah, I will link that website in the show notes because it's I would not have guessed because there is so much movement of you know, buying local etc. It's so much more helpful. So I think that that sounds like a really good place to get a more clear picture of what actually is happening.
00:34:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, local isn't always bad. I mean, usually it's good, but it's just, I could see how someone would think beef down the road is better than some tomatoes that came from a long way away, when often it's actually the other way around, which, yeah, sort of was eye opening to me anyway. But really, yeah, yeah, that I think typifies, well, demonstrates what the real problem is globally anyway. Absolutely.
00:35:14
Speaker
So thinking, I mean, we're already seeing it happen this year, multiple times. There was a race, one of the UTMB races in Colorado was actually changed because of flooding. They couldn't run the 100k. And so we're seeing a lot of races being impacted by environmental changes, disasters, like abnormalities.
00:35:41
Speaker
What are your thoughts on this in terms of
00:35:47
Speaker
Is this absolute the future? How do we change it? What's your kind of perspective? Should we be racing less? How do you see this fitting in? That's a terribly wordy question, but hopefully you understand where I'm going. Well, yeah. I mean, because I've been interested in this for a couple of years, I am sort of collecting in my head at least a list of races that have been affected or competitions that have been affected.
Climate Change Impacts on Events
00:36:12
Speaker
One of the obvious ones is the Tokyo Olympics. The marathon wasn't held in Tokyo because that would have been too hot. And in fact, that Olympic Games had athletes asking for extra timeouts, but they even left venues and wheelchairs because of the heat. There are examples. Well, the worst example is that terrible tragedy in China a year ago or two years ago when over 20 runners died from very extreme change in the weather. Now,
00:36:41
Speaker
Some people say we've always had extreme weather, but yeah, various studies are showing that it's hugely more likely because of climate breakdown. I've had a race cancelled, yeah, like the day before, I was on the way to it and it got a text saying it was cancelled because we'd had a storm and they couldn't prepare infrastructure. Down in Australia, actually, yeah, the same storm actually, I was going to do the spine race.
00:37:06
Speaker
This is two years, a year and a half ago. And actually they had to, we couldn't run all the route because there were lots of trees that had been made unsafe because of the same storm. And we had to get a lift in a car. Now, I actually, I actually DNF'd out the race before that bit, but we had to run like 200 miles, get a lift in a car for 10 miles and then carry on running. Like, I mean, that kind of made a mockery of our sport, especially getting lift in the car, which didn't help. Although, yeah, I don't know what else they could have done.
00:37:35
Speaker
In Australia and New Zealand recently, we've seen two races that have been, yeah, storms have wrecked the trails and it's turned more or less into, you know, a flat road race. You know, so it is really affecting our sport and more globally running, even Sebastian Kowart.
00:37:53
Speaker
I don't know if he's well known in America, but he's head of athletics. And he sort of in a flippant comment recently said he doesn't know if the marathon will be part of the Olympics, you know, in the future. Now, in fact, it was a bit of an unguarded flippant comment, but it shows that running is really being affected. And yeah, too hot to run. I've heard from Australian runners, it's too simply too hot to run over in America. You have much more of a wildfire issue than we have.
00:38:17
Speaker
And the air pollution globally is just ridiculous, like nearly every city, well, yeah, I don't want to exaggerate this, but yeah, the WHO recommended guidelines for air pollution. Most cities in the world don't meet that. And runners breathe in, you know, we breathe in deeply that air all the time. So we are being affected, possibly more than some people. Other sports are being affected too, especially sort of mountaineering and mountain sports skiing, winter sports for obvious reasons.
00:38:47
Speaker
Um, climbing, you know, mountaineering places aren't safe because it's not as, yeah, it's warmer. So the rocks are being loose and they're tumbling down. Um, it is affecting sports globally. Um, I forgot what the question was really, but I guess solutions maybe that we can, or what do you foresee as our trajectory? Do you see it as we're just going to keep
00:39:15
Speaker
plugging away, keep pushing, keep thinking that we can make these things happen and adjusting? Or do you think eventually this is going to catch on of enough movement where we start reducing the races, we started reducing or limiting the amount of people that say can climb Everest? How do you project, I guess? Gosh, yeah, what a great question. I don't know if I really have.
00:39:37
Speaker
I don't know if I really thought to, but what I hope is that, so various bits of research show sort of, we're much more likely to act when I suppose the things that affect us are affected. It's difficult when it's, you see an image of polar bears and their ice is melting and you kind of think, oh, that's sad, but I don't know any polar bears. Whereas when it's your own races, your own experiences, your own treasured experiences,
00:40:07
Speaker
that are being affected, hopefully that means people who maybe before hadn't realized what was happening, they can see now, things are really happening now, climate breakdown is now, it's not something that's going to happen, it's happening now. And again, we had our hottest ever day ever recorded here in Britain last year. I guess I hope that will galvanize more people. And then I suppose the next question is,
00:40:35
Speaker
what do we do? We care, but we don't know what to do is what I hear quite a lot. I think, yeah, it's back to that sort of nudging for system change, voting
Call to Action for Climate Change
00:40:44
Speaker
as well. I think I missed that out last time, although we don't get to vote all that often. But yeah, I mean, I was when they were just protesting London over the weekend, the Green Runners were part of that. I would say it's got to be it's got to be it's got to be that it's got to be sort of
00:40:58
Speaker
getting to the streets, but also in your local running club, your local running race, what could be improved. But the act of improving something isn't just that maybe slight reduction of emissions, that influences people and sends a message as well, and then hopefully gets more people on board. And then, yeah, I mean, that's, I hope, yeah, that's a great question what things can look like. I mean, I'm guessing there are some races that will be affected
00:41:27
Speaker
forever, they may not even, you know, may not even be able to exist how they how they were. I guess that's the reality, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah, no, we're seeing I mean, races that were previously in one month or now in another month, or they are, there's changes to the course. Yeah, it I think it's already happening. I'm just yeah, it's just always that question of like, when is it going to be enough to really get people's attention? Well, yeah, we're close.
00:41:59
Speaker
or there. Yeah, I hope so. Well, well, I appreciate though you sharing this. And I think that it's such an important part of this community because the most everyone here is a mountain athlete or aspiring mountain athlete. And that I think is where we are seeing so many
00:42:25
Speaker
impact so many changes. And if we want our sports to continue, if we want to be able to go to the places we love, we have to be aware of what's going on and be actively working towards a solution or many solutions.
00:42:41
Speaker
And I would say, yeah, I totally agree. I would say what seems to hold some people back is that fear of not being perfect or of being called a hypocrite. But the fact is we're all hypocrites because our everyday emissions, our everyday life, even our food and our clothing, there were emissions released in the production of it.
00:42:58
Speaker
So we can't move almost for emitting on some level. Now, sometimes there are improvements we can make. But to me, that's not the most important thing. If no one speaks up, then what happens? Nothing happens. So we've got to almost embrace the word hypocrite. I actually have it on some of my social media bios. And I do get called a hypocrite. But I've got kids. And in 20 or 30 years, they're going to say to me, dad, back then when
00:43:28
Speaker
when it was still possible to stop all this. What did you do? Why didn't everyone stop it? And that kind of haunts me. And we've got a chance now, but it's kind of right now that we...
00:43:40
Speaker
that we need to change things. And governments just aren't asking, you know, just aren't acting. So we need to, yeah, I mean, we almost need to go straight to the source at risk of sounding like I'm not I'm not advocating for another charge on Capitol Hill as such, but or at least not in that style has happened to you guys. But but yeah, I think it's that urgent and that desperate that we really need to make a noise and make sure that politicians
00:44:06
Speaker
realize that we demand action now. Yeah, I can't think what else really. I agree. So if people want to connect with you or see what you're doing... Well, they probably don't now. They can hear what a depressing, boring... No, I mean, I'm inspired again to continue to do the best that I can and keep
00:44:34
Speaker
working for change so i'm sure others are as well what is the best way to contact you or contact the green runners or see how they can make an impact in their own country do you have any.
00:44:46
Speaker
things you can share? Well, we'd absolutely love anyone who's listening or and grab a friend and come and join the Green Runners. That would be amazing. And we are kind of we are global. There's nothing necessarily geographical about us. It's just in dollars, it'd be three or four dollars to join. And that gets a badge, a cloth badge sent out that you can attach to
00:45:07
Speaker
We decided not to make t-shirts. That seemed a bit contradictory. But you get sent a badge. So the money goes, yeah, for the badge. And I think a little bit towards the upkeep of the website. But yeah, the badges, yeah, stick it on your pack or your t-shirt or your headwear. We're fast approaching. It was our birthday. We're fast approaching 1,000 members. We're in many, many countries now. Yeah, please come and join. It's just thegreenrunners.com.
00:45:37
Speaker
And all we ask is people make a pledge to improve on one of our four pillars. And, you know, that's totally up to you. No one's expecting perfection from anyone. It's just improving. But really, to me, the key one is speaking out. And that could be on social media, could be to your friends, could be in interviews like this. All of that. Yeah, that all matters and counts, I think.
00:46:05
Speaker
I agree. Well, thank you so much Damien for sharing about this and digging into
00:46:12
Speaker
tougher questions. And also, I think it's so hard because of yeah, exactly the hypocrite side of things where people are so afraid to make a mistake or to be called out for something and just tell those people to shut up like the people that are that are criticizing you because you're doing more and caring more by by saying something and doing something so well, thank you. But it's important. I mean, you're giving me a platform and you guys I know you guys are sympathetic and but yeah, just keep keeping
00:46:41
Speaker
banging on about the message and spreading it is just, yeah, really important, I think. Absolutely. Well, thank you for listening to the uphill athlete podcast. You can rate, review and subscribe anywhere you listen to podcasts. And it's not just one, but a community. We are uphill athlete.