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Terminator Month: Rise of the Machines and Salvation
401 Plays2 years ago
In the year 2022, the world of podcasting has been overrun with Podcast Bots. All that stands in their way is a Scottish red panda and a talking sandwich. With time not on their side, the duo must make their way through the good, the bad and the downright ugly of the Terminator franchise in order to keep their podcast alive for their third season.
In this episode we enlist the help of our ally Greenshield to fight the dreaded podcast bots! Why does the TX make faces when licking blood? Where's the terminating? And Salvation was supposed to end WHAT way?! All this and more in this episode of Chatsunami!
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Transcript
Introduction to Chat Tsunami and its unique theme
00:00:00
Speaker
In the year 2020, a red panda in a talking sandwich began a podcast called Chat Tsunami. As the podcast grew, they began attracting the attention of the dreaded podcast bots. Now, in 2022, beginning their third season, they must make their way through all of the Terminator films. Wait, even Genesis? Yes, even Genesis.
The Terminator Marathon: A Podcast Challenge
00:00:25
Speaker
Oh, man. Well, Lisa's no birdemic. Welcome to Chatsunami. Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of Chatsunami. I'm Satsunami, and joining me for the second episode of Terminator Man. Hello, hello. It's good to be back. Like, oh, I really enjoyed last episode. Adam, Adam. No, no, Adam. What are you doing?
00:00:54
Speaker
Sorry, I was just... No, no, no. What are you doing, Adam? I was just saying hello. You're just cutting in front of me, in front of this podcast. Do you call yourself a professional? No, no, I wasn't trying to cut in front of me. Oh, good for you, not cutting in front of me. I'm sorry, Sess. I was just trying to... You know what, Adam? We are done professionally after this. We are absolutely done professionally. Sess, come on, man. No, no, no. We're done. That's it. I'm going out the door now. I'm going out.
Humor and Rants: Christian Bale's Infamous Incident
00:01:21
Speaker
I would be saying hi. He'll be back. Hold on, I'm looking at the red panda lawyer. Right, okay, that reference is very dated, so yeah. We've got to go ahead. I'm sure Christian Bale can laugh about it now. Did he not put out an apology right after to be like, sorry, please hire me? His apology's great because it starts with, this has been a terrible week for me. I start in salvation.
Guest Insights: Green Shield's Favorite Terminator Films
00:01:48
Speaker
So yeah, as you might have heard in the background, we have another very special guest who has traveled all this way to help us against the fight against the podcast bots. It is none other than the one and only Green Shield. Green Shield, welcome to the fight. Talk to the hand. Hi, everyone. I'm glad to be able to talk on Terminator Month this time. Unfortunately, I was chosen for three and four, so we'll get my views on those films. Better than later on in the series, so yeah, excited to chat about it.
00:02:18
Speaker
And to be fair, these are your favourite films in the franchise. Oh, not just the franchise. Just in general, these are the best movies I've ever made. It is very surprising to me that it's not received as well. I had a look and I was expecting Oscar nominations, Golden Globes, but like 33% of Rotten Tomatoes, that just seems unfair. Absolutely. These are underrated gems, said no one ever. Indie classics. Indie classics, yeah, for all the wrong reasons. Cult classics, if you will.
00:02:45
Speaker
as you might have twagged on by the fact we had our petition bail freak out and yeah honestly we are going to be talking about Terminator 3 Rise of the Machines why it had to have that subtitle I don't know but then we are also going to be talking about Terminator Salvation which I feel old because I can't believe that these films came out in is it right to say 2003 for Terminator 3 and 2009 was definitely Terminator Salvation
00:03:15
Speaker
That is correct, yep, that's correct for both of them, so yeah. Way to feel old. And in fairness, there is also a subtitle to Terminator 2. It's Judgment Day, so Terminator 3 wasn't the first one to subtitle to its movie name. You have missed your chance to be in the last episode.
00:03:31
Speaker
Where's your time travel mission? I'm trying to slide into a chat about Terminator 1 and 2. Here's my views on this. I hope you guys said this. No, no, the next episodes, the rebuts. No, no. Yeah, we're going to be talking about these.
00:03:47
Speaker
rather middling films because we all know that Genesis and Dark Fate weren't really well received but until
00:04:03
Speaker
quite curious to hear what your experiences with these films were before we dive in and cast our own Judgment Day on this because I always remember watching, like I said this in the last episode, I remember watching the second Terminator for a Woman TV, I knew the Terminator was like a popular franchise in the 80s but never really had much experience with it and then I ended up for some reason I had Terminator 3 on DVD
00:04:31
Speaker
And then I never really watched Salvation up until probably the last couple of years because I heard about the freak-out and how bad it was with the franchise. But going to you first Adam, being the resident Terminator expert, what was your experiences with these films?
00:04:48
Speaker
So I saw both these films in cinema when they released. Probably between 2003 and 2009 was probably the peak of my, like, love of the whole Terminator franchise. I don't get me wrong, I still love Terminator 1 and Terminator 2, but I'm not as devoted to the whole franchise as I was between those two years. Because as I said in the last episode, I remember seeing trailers for Terminator 3 and being very interested by it.
00:05:10
Speaker
And like I mentioned it to my mum who wasn't, is a big fan of the first two films. And so she showed me both of those films just before we went to see Terminator 3, went to see Terminator 3. Like I loved it. I was, I was absolutely in love with the Terminator franchise. I played a lot of the games that came out in the years afterwards. Also in the run up to Salvation. I remember, remember reading lots about Terminator Salvation, about hearing like about his story, about the cast, about what was going to happen and getting really excited and really enthused for it. And yeah, and then I went off to see it.
00:05:36
Speaker
must have been the first couple of weeks it released. So this really was like a very... I was really into the whole franchise during these years. And what about you, Gooding Shield? Were you the same when these films came out? Did you have a positive relationship with these films? Yeah, I had a very positive impression, to be honest, of both these films when they initially came out. I mean, I was very young when Terminator 3 came out. It was 2003, so I would have been just turning eight. And so I didn't see it at the cinema, but I did see it
00:06:04
Speaker
in the preceding years on syndication, on TV. And so I'd seen Terminator 2 and then Terminator 3. There's a very good chance I watched 3 and then 2. And then I saw Salvation at the cinema, which is the first and only Terminator film that I've seen at the cinema. And then I went back and watched Terminator 1 many years later.
00:06:22
Speaker
Because Terminator 1 was an 18 in the UK, I wasn't old enough to watch it for a long time, whereas all the other preceding films were lesser ratings, which is such a bizarre kind of thing to me that the opening movie is rated more graphic than the preceding films, but it's not uncommon.
00:06:39
Speaker
Yeah, I'd watched Terminator 3 on TV, had enjoyed it, preferred Terminator 2 when I saw that, but it was still pretty hyped to go see Terminator Salvation at the cinema and was pretty happy with it when I saw it. I didn't have much context from not having seen the first film. I didn't know who Kyle Reese was. Yeah, I enjoyed it at the time. Going back now, it's a little bit different, but at the time, yeah, it was a good experience. How about yourself, Tatsu?
00:07:01
Speaker
I watched these films at the time, and at least for Terminator 3, because as I said, I don't watch Terminator Salvation until much later. I can actually remember what year it was, but you know, that's kind of ironic because Terminator timelines are all iffy.
00:07:16
Speaker
But for Terminator 3, I actually do remember having this in DVD. I remember watching it quite a lot. I remember liking it well enough at the time, but I don't really have any memories of saying, oh, this is fantastic. Because you know what it's like when you're younger and you have all these flashing lights and everything and, oh, look, it's a cool robot fighting, another cool robot. But when you get old and you start to really think about Terminator 3, you think,
00:07:44
Speaker
I'm going to be honest, Terminator 3 for me is probably the most depressing in the entire franchise. When I was younger, I genuinely considered this to be the most depressing and slight spoilers here.
00:07:59
Speaker
we are going to be talking about spoilers for these two films but yeah the fact that it ends with a very strong ending and they really commit to that ending and you're kind of you come away from it and you're like okay it's like it's not the upbeat humanity versus machine story Terminator 1 and 2 have like really dark moments they have very serious aspects but
00:08:24
Speaker
Yeah like for Terminator 3 it's like they kind of just say nah the other two films aren't, not that they aren't canon but it's like they almost don't matter and I know that's kind of a thing about salvation, genesis and especially dark fate, pick up on like much later to try and reignite that
Terminator 3 Overview: Ending and Themes
00:08:44
Speaker
spark.
00:08:44
Speaker
But yeah, to me this was quite a depressing film. But see without any further ado, while we just jump into this and discuss what we like about these films, what we don't like about them, and have our very own chat to freak out about these movies.
00:08:59
Speaker
for it let's do it so we will be right back we just need to move to maybe a safer location but then again i don't think the podcast bots are going to come for us if we're talking about terminator salvation i think we're going to be safe hold on tight listen to these transmissions and we will be right back we'll be back
00:09:18
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and journal interests.
Diverse Topics in Chatsunami: From Gaming to Anime
00:09:25
Speaker
Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises.
00:09:36
Speaker
Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:10:00
Speaker
Join me, Slade, and my two co-hosts, Joey and Tim, over at the Video Game Club, where once every two weeks we review a video game, not too dissimilar to a book club. Podcast.
00:10:16
Speaker
You can find us at The Video Game Club on all good podcast providers and some sketchy ones as well. For Terminator 3, this is a bit of a weird
Plot Analysis: John Connor's Struggle Against Judgment Day
00:10:27
Speaker
one. Adam, do you mind if I explain what happens in this film? Because I know you really want to take up Terminator Salvation. I am happy for you to take the baton here and lead. As long as you pass it over to me for Salvation. Are you okay with that, Green Shield?
00:10:43
Speaker
Yeah, go for it. Because I know, I know your heart was set on it, but yeah, no, sorry, that's for salvation. Terminator 3 is basically what would happen if you hated Terminator 1 and 2 and said, yeah, I didn't like the happy upbeat ending. I want to be as depressing as possible. Terminator 3 follows an adult John Connor living quite a mundane life off the grid.
00:11:08
Speaker
and he is doing his best to keep a low profile because he still has this nagging feeling that despite stopping Judgment Day, something's gonna happen and rightfully so. Eventually we are introduced to the next bigger and badder Terminator, the TX, who is a female model of the Terminator line. See in all honesty, at this rate Skynet is turning into Hasbro with the amount of
00:11:36
Speaker
like terminators they're turning out here it almost feels as if they're just like okay the T800 didn't work let's go for the T1000. T1000 didn't work so we're gonna go for this TX model which is a it's described as a terminator terminator so it kills humans easily but then it also kills other terminators supposedly because it's got like flamethrower but
00:12:00
Speaker
We'll get onto that. The whole film revolves around John and Kate Brewster. They are trying to both escape from the TX and try to prevent judgement date. It doesn't really work that way and throughout the film it is just like the usual cat and mouse chase. They're trying to stop this apocalyptic event and know that isn't a euphemism for this film. Yeah, that's as brief as it can be without going into massive spoilers but
00:12:29
Speaker
I'm going to be honest, this film is probably to me, and I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say about this, but this film to me solidified that this was going to be a franchise. Even the intro, the intro is so bland and boring. What are
00:12:44
Speaker
thought was quite interesting is they have Arnold's name as the Terminator before the title Terminator 3, but they don't even have Nick Stahl who plays John Connor, they don't have his name before, they don't have any of the other actors before the title screen, they just have that name
00:13:01
Speaker
they have the title Terminator 3 against a black screen and then they have the whole monologue about yeah humanity's doomed blah blah blah it's just it's very generic and you kind of think oh my god this is going to be one of those films but Green Chill passing it on to you. What were your first impressions of the intro especially in comparison to like Terminator 1 and 2?
00:13:24
Speaker
I mean, I can understand why Arnie's name is there and not anyone else's because I mean, he's the consistent kind of factor and he's who people know as the Terminator. So I can understand why they would do that because that's why you're coming to see a Terminator film to see Arnie. And that is one of the big things where we'll get to it later on when we talk about salvation. But one of the big things about salvation is the lack.
00:13:47
Speaker
of RNA for a Terminator film, when that is really why you're there to watch the movie. You want to see the cheesy RNA lines and that kind of stuff. And so I can understand
John Connor's Evolution: Aimless Life Post-T2
00:13:58
Speaker
personally why they would bring Schwarzenegger as the main focus of the movie. Going on to the monologue there by John Connor, I didn't really pay much attention to it.
00:14:08
Speaker
To be honest it's kinda felt like one of those kind of. Boring kind of introductions to it all like I knew I knew what was going on so it didn't really seem necessary to do that but like I guess it's just it's he's trying to set the scene so we understand I don't know I don't think the others had a monologue to begin with I could be.
00:14:26
Speaker
Terminator 2 did. Terminator 2 did. Yeah, that's right. Okay. Just to give you some context as well for my watching, I had actually before, um, Satenami had asked me to come on and do this, I had just watched Terminator 1, not for the first time, but for the first time in quite a while. And it was actually the first time that my partner had seen any of the Terminator films. She was kind of in and out. So she didn't see the entire thing, but she, what she saw, she enjoyed. And so after that, Satenami had asked for me to join in. So I then watched.
00:14:53
Speaker
Terminator 2 so that my partner could watch that as well. She watched most of it and fell asleep during some of it but enjoyed that and so was down to watch the third one and so we kind of got the kind of context to understand like how the series kind of progressed and so you do get to see a big difference between each of the movies and the tone of the movie
00:15:12
Speaker
how the series is progressing and like I kind of just noticed just generally that what this movie is doing and I'm I don't want to kind of jump into it too too too soon before like as an overall thought but it seems to be trying to replicate the kind of cheesy 90s or late 80s action kind of quips and scenes and whatnot but like
00:15:33
Speaker
dialed up, it's almost like a parody of itself. And it feels it feels quite self aware, which I feel is kind of the death of a franchise when that happens. So it certainly became like it dialed the cheesiness and the self awareness up in like the introductory kind of scenes of the movie with like looks to the camera and like glancing over and seeing like a sign, like signs and reading, reading out like amusing signs, that kind of stuff. But yeah, regarding sort of the title sequence in the the monologue, what were your thoughts, Adam?
00:16:00
Speaker
I think it's only natural that this was going to happen. A third film was going to happen just because Terminator 2 made stupid amounts of money for the studio and everybody who was involved. So I think it was only natural that they were going to try and desperately keep this franchise going. Even though you could argue it's quite a natural, Terminator 2 has quite a natural end. But apparently as well, like James Cameron had been writing potential script for a third Terminator film in the years after Terminator 2, but then he became involved in Titanic.
00:16:26
Speaker
And that turned out to be, pardon the pun, a titanic effort in both production and filming and then post-production. So I think he seemed to kind of lose interest in doing any kind of further terminated films in the years after that. But, you know, it seems like the rights were then sold to different film studios and different groups of people who tried desperately to get Cameron back on board, but he just wasn't interested.
00:16:46
Speaker
it seems like a lot of the cast as well. Linda Hamilton had no real interest in going back to this. Ellen Hamilton played Sarah Connor in Terminator 1 and 2. She had no interest in going back to the Terminator franchise. It looks like Arnie was very reluctant as well until they paid him an exorbitant amount of money to go back. I think he spoke to James Cameron and James Cameron told Arnie to just take the money, take the money and do it because it was such a ridiculous fee they were offering to
00:17:08
Speaker
pay for him so it kind of makes sense and you know maybe it was like studio, you know, cynical studio executives looking for money but at the end of the day like I think there was still a bit of room there as much as it kind of had Terminator 2 in a natural ending. I do think there was some scope to do more with this franchise. Regarding the actual start of Terminator 3 itself, totally agree with what Green Shields is saying, like the reason Arnie's name is right at the front is number one because of the exorbitant amount of money they were paying him and then number two as well because
00:17:33
Speaker
If you're not maybe as deeply involved in the franchise as others, you'd come to see Arnie, because he was still a very big star at this time. He probably was a little bit on the decline. He probably wasn't the box office draw. He was in the 80s and 90s, but he was still a giant star. It kind of makes sense to promote the fact that he was on there. That's why his face, I think, is still a cover-up for this film.
00:17:52
Speaker
It's not the best. I don't think the first probably 15 to 20 minutes of this film were great, to be honest. I think it for me, it picks up after like a 20 minute mark. I think it's a little bit kind of ponderous
Critique of Terminator 3's CGI and Action Scenes
00:18:03
Speaker
in the beginning. But I think the opening bits of the film do kind of OK in showing that like John Connor is this person who is just adrift and kind of like just floating like with no direction anymore after like the events of Terminator 2. And it was going to be this big hit, this grand destiny to fulfill. But it looks like now, you know, he's just
00:18:19
Speaker
he's got nowhere to go and he's no direction and I think they originally planned to really lean into that like there's a there's a scene early on where he's sitting like over a bridge and like he drops a beer bottle into the water and that's when it then cuts into like the kind of future timeline but I think originally they were going to really like imply that he was considering committing suicide at that point so I think they really were going to lean into a very dark
00:18:38
Speaker
telling the list but they decided to pull back from that so it does what it does the first 50 and 20 minutes it kind of sets the stage you know we see there's two terminators that come back John Connor is kind of aimless we get introduced to Catherine Brewster but I agree it's not it's nothing special to be honest it's nothing to really write about but I think it for me anyway I think it picks up kind of after that 20 minute mark. Can I just say that is the weirdest advertisement for Budweiser? Are you depressed about your life?
00:19:03
Speaker
Yeah, I also know that because they were very deliberate about showing the label. I'm like, OK, so Budweiser, I even I did know I was like Budweiser is sponsored this movie because they're very clearly advertising it. But like it is like if I was Budweiser, I'd be like, wait, you've shoehorned in our product at like at what point in the movie? Because I mean, don't get me wrong, advertising in their series isn't new because I know in T2, I think Pepsi was one of the big ones when they're in like the arcade and everything. So it's not a new thing.
00:19:32
Speaker
At the same time, I totally agree with you guys. It is just such a weird scene to be like Budweiser because when your life goes downhill, you've got Budweiser. And yeah, it sinks into the sea of skulls. It's very avant-garde. Do you know what it reminds me of? And this is my first instance reference. It's like, you know that episode for Mr. Plough where Homer gets a very artistic
00:19:57
Speaker
director to do his advert for the snow ploughing business and it makes no sense whatsoever. And he turns around to his family and he's like, did you like it? And they're all just like, what was that? Now it just feels as if it is just like, what? Why? But going off on that, we are introduced to a new model of Terminator, which is, as I said in the intro, known as the TX.
The TX Villain: Mixed Reactions and Impact
00:20:21
Speaker
This time it is a female model. Again,
00:20:25
Speaker
very curious to hear what you guys have to say about this because in the last episode I made a potentially hot point about how Terminator 2 seems to be the, no pun intended, the genesis of what the other films would become.
00:20:41
Speaker
And what I mean by that is the fact that in T2 we had the T1000, which was a far superior terminator. It could, you know, shift into different people, it could change its arms into knives and blades and things like that. It was a very interesting take at the time, but the further the films went on, the further they made the new terminators really crazy with their abilities. I feel as if in T3 they'd definitely show that.
00:21:10
Speaker
Because it could have been interesting. It could have been really interesting having like a female terminator and seeing what they could do with that. But I don't want to go as far as to say the objectifier, but they weren't far off. So what I assume happened in Skynet was they were like, we've sent two male robots back.
00:21:31
Speaker
robot HR is on our ass, we need to have a diversity robot hire, we got to have a woman robot go back now. And so and so they send her back in time. I'm just kidding, by the way, the panda lawyer is shaking his head furiously. It did seem very strange. I do think that they paint themselves into a little bit of a corner after T two, because one of the clever things about Terminator two is
00:21:54
Speaker
If you've only, if you've just seen the first Terminator and Arnie was the bad guy and you come in, you assume that what we later learn is the T-1000 is actually the Kyle Reese equivalent of the protector that's come back to protect John Connor. Satinami, Adam and I kind of, I don't know if you guys had kind of picked up on those kind of like hints that like, that's what they were going for. But like when I was watching with my partner.
00:22:19
Speaker
She had zero idea that Arnie would be the good guy in Terminator 2. And so she was so convinced that this guy who was pretending to be a cop was going to be like the protector and Arnie was the bad guy. And so she like was shocked when the reveal.
00:22:35
Speaker
And I think that's, it was such a, like so cleverly done, such a good social commentary and on police and, and whatnot, that when you got to term year three, you know, the irony is going to be the good guy. This girl, this, this female term here is like clearly bad news immediately. There's no kind of like, Oh, who's, which of the two of them are going to be the bad one this time kind of thing. It's like, you know, immediately. And that's, so you already, you can't lose a little bit of impact from that.
00:23:01
Speaker
And then yeah, it's almost comical how they deal with the female character where she gets pulled over by a cop and inflates her breasts so that she can kind of like talk her way out of a ticket kind of thing. But she doesn't need to talk her way out because she literally kills the guy.
00:23:16
Speaker
Yeah, I think she kills him anyway. So I thought at the time I was like, she's inflated breasts. She's definitely going to kill this guy. I don't know why they've occluded this scene. It was apparently an app that we paid to film as well, because the airbags wouldn't inflate properly. Oh my God. I'm just thinking back to Terminator 1 and 2. Can you imagine if it was like, he tried to do a mail work with Owen. What, like on his biceps, like in players? Yeah, normally. He's going to bulge you, Sarah Carter.
00:23:43
Speaker
obviously you wouldn't have that, so like why did you have to have it? There were so many weird choices that they like sexualized this robot with as well, like identifying blood by licking it. Did you see the face she makes? I made this exact note, sorry to jump in, but I made this exact note that she makes like an orgasm face when she identifies John Connor's blood. I was like
00:24:08
Speaker
Why would they include that in her programming? One of the things, I was watching another air reviewer for this, and again he pointed out the same thing, but he said, can you imagine, again go back to Terminator 1 and 2, but can you imagine if they did the exact same thing? Like Sarah Connor, yes, that's me, who's speaking? Yeah, no, it's just he looks at them and goes, oh!
00:24:32
Speaker
It's just that you're completely right, Green Shield. It's completely unnecessary why they do those things. And I mean, I know obviously there is that hint of showing off the naked terminators in the first one when they arrive, but they never linger on it, if that makes sense. Don't get me wrong, they do it in the third one. I'm going to backtrack a wee bit because they do it when Arne comes in and he goes into the... it's not a strip cup, but you're on the bar.
00:25:00
Speaker
Yes, yeah, the Ladies Night. Yeah, like, I hate the
Humor in Terminator 3: Odd Scenes and Style
00:25:05
Speaker
pan where he like sees like all the women come around and then scan to the side and sees the sign that says Ladies Night. I was like, Oh, that's so cheesy. Like I get like that. That's kind of what the franchise is. That's what Lawrence Schwarzenegger movies kind of are. There's a lot of that in his movies. But like, it did just feel like so different in how and like its tone how it's filmed than Terminator 2 was.
00:25:27
Speaker
It doesn't get any better though as well because the minute he walks up to the stage and the stripper is on the stage and he begins interacting with the stripper I was like wow this is you can tell this is an early 2000s film from the way that stripper is portrayed I was like this has not aged well in any way. The very gay coded stripper. Lamboyant. It was very uncomfortable viewing.
00:25:49
Speaker
Should we talk about Ernie in this film? And the first one, as we know, he premieres as an emotionless robot and he makes such an impact in that role. And even in the second one, although he's kind of, he goes through this journey of finding his, ironically enough, his humanity as a robot. I mean, that was an interesting thing that they did with that character.
00:26:12
Speaker
this one though they decide that he's gonna be a little bit different and Adam correct me if I'm wrong but is this not like the and it is so unnecessary it's like the T850? Yeah it's like it's like a slightly updated version of as you say the original T800s that were in Terminator 1 and 2 but it's still an obsolete design since we've got a TX now.
00:26:32
Speaker
we made a joke about this in the last episode where we talked about our idea for a Netflix show called The Skynet Scientist, and basically what that was was the fact that there must be Skynet Scientists working behind the scenes making all of these terrible decisions, like what you were saying Green Shield about Skynet HR just being like, right okay, the T-800 didn't work,
00:26:57
Speaker
We're going to send the liquidy T1000. Okay, that didn't work. Let's send a female one back into, you know. But like, okay. I get that the robots will want to like improve on the previous model because it didn't work. But like humanity was pretty fortunate that it didn't work. Like you could have sent one back again or sent two of them and like they would have won.
00:27:17
Speaker
Can I just say, I love how, like, it's made quite clear in the first Terminator film that, like, always makes a point of, like, the humans are on the brink of winning, and this is, like, a last desperate move by the machines to try and win by sending the T-800 back. You then get a T-1000, then there's a TX. It must have been, like, a conga liner. These things hate to go right as the humans are, like, just about to win. It's like, right, go, go, go, like, they're jumping out of an airplane or something.
00:27:39
Speaker
He's using his infinite supply. Yeah, it's like the war zone of the future. I'm sure time travel is pretty tricky. But does it require so much power that you could only send one at a time? Why couldn't they send multiple? Because I think, and this is probably explained, where did you play in the war? I think it's because two naked cyborgs would feel uncomfortable with one another traveling back in time. So they thought, nah, one at a time.
00:28:04
Speaker
It's like, can you imagine them just making eye contact and being like, nah, nah, I didn't sign up for this. I signed up for Kell & Humans. But going into the past naked, that's where I draw the line. And because of Skynet HR, you know, they have to comply with that. So to be honest, Skynet's own undoing was making an HR department, to be honest.
00:28:23
Speaker
But what are your thoughts about the action in this film? So going to you Adam, what are your thoughts about the action? Because I'm going to be honest, there's quite an interesting scene where there's a huge chase scene and granted it goes on for bloody ages. But it's where the TX controls all of these cars.
00:28:42
Speaker
how that future nonsense works, I don't know. But apparently there's a scene where a crane crashes through a building and they didn't have the money for it and Arnie actually took money from his own paycheck. I think it was 1.4 million. There was a ridiculous amount. But he took that money and he funded that particular scene.
00:29:02
Speaker
I'm gonna be honest, I'm just gonna jump in right ahead.
Arnie's Commitment: Funding Action Scenes
00:29:06
Speaker
I do not like the actions for this, it feels very... like this film when it came out was a 12A, so basically anyone who's 12 years old and up or anyone under the ages of 12 with adult supervision, they can watch this film other than one scene.
00:29:22
Speaker
where the TX puts a hand through the chest of a guy, which I thought was quite creative. That is the only time you think, Jesus Christ, this is crazy. Because the rest of it is a lot of throwing. There's a lot of weird shaky cam. Dooma never something's hit. There's a lot of weird shaky cam as if the cameraman gets a fright. Like, oh my god.
00:29:44
Speaker
It's all very PG and very light in comparison to Terminator 1 and 2 especially, but sorry Adam, going to you first of all. What did you think of this in comparison? I would tend to agree with you. I think outside of the chasing. I agree the chasing is too long, but I think it's
00:30:02
Speaker
I still quite like the chase. I still think it's got like some kind of crunch, like crunchy action to it. So I quite enjoy that. But there's not really much else. I agree. And I think I think there's a couple of issues for reasons why the action doesn't work as well in this film. And number one, like, I think this is a point, obviously, where they started to rely much more on CGI. And it's just some of it looks just bad. The fights between the two between the TX and T850 are just horrible.
00:30:26
Speaker
They're horrible in every way because they're stupid. The CGI doesn't look good anymore. And I love how this film is determined to let you know how heavy these terminators are, because anytime they hit anything, they smash through walls, they smash through floors. The filmmakers want you to know these are heavy things.
00:30:41
Speaker
Like, and I get it, but really it gets ridiculous. And there's a point as well where, like, there's one point that had me in hysterics where, like, the TX, like, picks Arnie up by, like, his balls and, like, just starts walking him through walls. I just, it was as stupid as I've ever seen, but I thought it was hysterical.
00:30:56
Speaker
Yeah, even when something's heavy, you still need like some velocity to get through a wall. You don't just walk through it like they did. I did find that a bit silly and like fell down and just like crashed through these tiles on the floor. I'm like, those tiles must be made of like absolute glass. Like it's terrible.
00:31:13
Speaker
especially because I love the fight between the T-1000 and the T-800 in Terminator 2 and the Steel Mill because you can tell these are machines that are hitting each other but it's done in a way that it's not like T-1000 throws a T-100 and it crashes through the industrial machinery around but it's still done so well but it just went over the top of it.
00:31:31
Speaker
And I think this film, Terminator 3, also relies too much on trying to replicate some of the action scenes from Terminator 2. And Terminator 2 worked so well because it took the series in a new direction and it was very fresh and very exciting. The action scenes kind of reflected that but Terminator 3 tries to
00:31:47
Speaker
replicate those, especially the scene where Arnie comes out with the coffin on his shoulder and sort of shooting up the police cars. It's basically a very poor imitation of the scene from Terminator 2 where he does that. I've seen this done better and it just falls flat. So I think those are the real issues for the action for me. It just doesn't work as well.
00:32:04
Speaker
I do have to laugh that any time a human gets thrown by the Terminator, they get launched like in American football, hundreds of yards and smash into things but are still okay. Can we just talk about that in some of the editing decisions? As I said before, you've got that thing where not only are the terminators – see, this is what I've always been – the fact that the terminators no longer terminate, they
00:32:24
Speaker
the row people like across the room and it's like oh my god you have a metal arm drive it through their face there you go you've won the war Skynet but no they have to like as you said throw them across the room and whenever they hit people the camera shakes it does this weird in and out thing it's really annoying but the one thing it just reminded me Adam when you brought up the particular scene which is actually in the back of the box
00:32:48
Speaker
I think for the DVD where he comes out of there and there's like this weird slow motion as if it's like auditioning to be a k-drama
Slow-motion Scenes: Criticism in Terminator 3
00:32:57
Speaker
or something. There's just like all of these moments where it's just slow-mo for the sake of slow-mo if that makes sense. Like did you notice that Green Shield?
00:33:05
Speaker
I didn't notice that as such, no, but I can gather that that probably was being overdone based on how they were kind of treating a lot of the cinematography in the movie. That was a very sort of mid-2000s action film trope. I feel like slow-mo was very prevalent in a lot of those. As you say, it was pointless slow-mo as well. It made literally no sense. It's like between that and Die Another Day, they're like pointless slow-mo. I think they were competing with one another at the time.
00:33:31
Speaker
interesting that just going back to the action kind of thing that car chase did go on for a very long time it caused my partner she she noted that like she was like you know i i don't think i like the car chase scenes they go on for too long and i was like do you mean like this movie or generally she's like this movie but also generally it was funny it's funny that you should mention that the car chase scene went on so long because it's what um taylor had noted as being her getting a bit bored with the uh with the movie during that point she actually really enjoyed the movie it was her favorite of all the ones we've seen
00:34:02
Speaker
She did note that John Connor is very cute. I thought that he looked weird, personally. I bought this Seth Green motherfucker. There is actually a reason for this, and this is something we were talking about before we started recording, but
00:34:19
Speaker
Apparently Edward Furlong, who was the original John Connor in Terminator 2, the child actor, he was supposed to reprise his role, but due to I think it was around 2001-2002, roughly before they started filming, apparently it was because of alleged substance abuse and everything and the controversy around that, that the studio dropped him. So therefore they had to go to Nick Stahl who
00:34:46
Speaker
Yeah, it's just another one of these actors on the revolving door of John Connor actors. I don't know, Adam, would you say there's more Terminator models than actors for John Connor in this franchise? They're certainly running close and parallel over the number of times that John Connor has been cast as different people. Yeah,
00:35:07
Speaker
I don't know like I don't really know much about Nick Stahl I have to admit like I'm I don't think I've really ever seen him in anything else like I don't really speak to his general acting ability I think he's okay in this film I don't know like I think somebody could have done it better I do think I do think he does struggle a little bit but I don't think it's like I don't think he stands out with like horrible like in comparison to both I don't feel he's like me like oh everything else is great oh my god
00:35:29
Speaker
It's difficult to say who is the best John Connor. You'd think my favourite is the adult version in Terminator 2. He only appears in for a couple of seconds, but he's probably my favourite because he looked... What? That's an insane comment, Adam.
00:35:43
Speaker
How is that insane comment? He looks like a journalist. Here's my thing, right? Okay, like John Connor is like almost his mythical, it's supposed to be his mythical figure. And that's what he is in the first Terminator film. And here's the thing about mythical figures, like the more you see them, like the less mythical they become. I almost feel like the Terminator franchise chose too much of John Connor at points. It'd be better I think if they just, like he was a secondary character, to be honest. I think they get a little bit too obsessed.
00:36:04
Speaker
You never see him, everyone just references him. That way then he can stay mythical. The more you see him, the more you're like, oh yeah, I remember when he was drinking some Budweiser and then he crashed his bike. That's not what mythical figures do. Yeah, I get that. I understand that to a point that it is one of those things where John Connery is kind of elevated to being this kind of
00:36:21
Speaker
mythical status.
John Connor's Character: Falling Short of Expectations
00:36:22
Speaker
You hear about it from Terminator 1, hearing about how great he is, and then constantly being told in Terminator 2 that this young John Connor will grow up to be someone who's so important. But then you get to Terminator 3, where he's an adult, and you kind of expect him to at least look the part, which he currently doesn't. I can see what they're trying to go for, that he's still a bit of a dweeb. He's kind of like a, it's what I'm looking for. He's
00:36:47
Speaker
Yeah, he's a bit of a waste of space and so he has a lot of growing to do to become that person and the start of the war kind of forms him into that person. But yeah, I don't know. I found his character to be quite annoying. I don't think he looked the part. I feel like he looked like a kind of standard early 2000s punk 20 year old.
00:37:05
Speaker
I cannot agree more. And going off of your point Adam, I completely agree with the fact that he is like this mythical historical figure because all of us share that common bond as well that we're all history nuts and the fact that you learn about like a mythical figure like someone who is held in such high regard and
00:37:25
Speaker
The only reason they seem to be using his name is because he's John Connor and they don't seem as if they know what to do with John Connor. I mean for God's sake he gets locked in a bloody kennel cage. The hero of the resistance of the future gets locked in a dog cage, you're like, really? And then he gets like beaten around and he just eats quite money.
00:37:48
Speaker
I have to say, there's a particular scene where later on in the film he's talking to the T-850 and he's saying, no, we stopped Judgment Day, like, you know, a child, like, no, we already went to the shops. Of course Arnie turned round and says, negative, we only postponed Judgment Day, which again, that's kind of the moment that the whole franchise is doomed when they're like, oh no, we can churn out as many sequels as we want, we don't care.
00:38:12
Speaker
That's probably kind of a good point before we move on to Terminator Salvation to talk about the actual ending of this film. As I said in the intro, I find this horribly depressing this film because they basically connect to the idea that despite Terminator 1 and 2, Judgment Day was always going to happen and there's no way to stop it. And don't get me wrong, they do it in the most stupid way where they're like, oh, a virus has hit everybody.
00:38:36
Speaker
And they actually have a point in the film where one of the characters, I think it's Catherine's father, says he's the head of one of these military generals and he says going after this virus is like going after a fly with a bazooka. But they still go after it anyway because they're paranoid that this virus is going to mess them up and then it turns out it's Skynet and everything. Well, in defense of that, he doesn't want to. Yeah, he does, you're right.
00:39:01
Speaker
He doesn't want to use Skynet. I think it's the president that calls in and delivers the final order to initiate it. And he kind of has to agree to do it and then sees that it's failed. I actually almost wish the whole film had revolved around Kevin Brewster's father and the decision to like launch Skynet. To me anyway, I find that a more interesting thing. Like if they built that up and you could have some like good like political commentary and social commentary things in there, but maybe that's just me. But I actually almost would have preferred the film to like focus on that.
00:39:28
Speaker
It would have been interesting for sure. I don't think it would have drawn in the audiences. That's true. It would have been very different in fairness. Yeah. It would have been like some sort of Manchurian candidate, like spy thriller kind of thing. So you wouldn't get any talk to the hand scenes or anything. I mean, why bother? You could still put that in there. Mr. President. Talk to the hand.
00:39:46
Speaker
and then it reveals the president is T850 Arnie. Speaking of Arnie in this particular sequence, because it mostly focuses on the cat and mouse chase between the TX and the T850 and Junko and everything, but every so often they cut back to Captain Brewster's father trying to, and I keep calling them that because I don't actually remember his name,
00:40:12
Speaker
I think it's Robert I think is his name. General Brewster. General Brewster or that idiot who stood still in a conflict situation while he got shot to death. But anyway, I know. It was his daughter being impersonated. I guess he was pretty confused. Yeah, but he has the weirdest look. It's almost as if.
00:40:29
Speaker
He just seen two of his daughter. He's like, what the hell? Yeah, no, I think the movie makes a lot of bizarre choices, but I feel like that was probably pretty justified. I would also be looking pretty like baffled if two of my daughter arrived. Yeah, but he gives like a Mark Woeberg the happening face. He's like, what? No. But do you know the deleted scene for this? Like the reason the T-800s look the way they do. Sergeant Candy.
00:40:55
Speaker
That's the one. Yep, that's the one. Do you know about this Green Shield? No. Is there someone who looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger in the army that they modelled them after? Yep, the very same. And they don't even give him his Austrian accent. They give him the most southern draw possible. There's a great bit in that. So yeah, Arnie's talking to this like, hi, I'm Sergeant Candy doing that. And they're like, God, can we change the voice? And then this other scientist goes, we can change that. And it's like Arnie's voice like dubbed over it. I thought it was pretty funny.
00:41:25
Speaker
It definitely goes with the comedic tone in comparison, but I mean that's the thing, this film tries to make a lot of comedic moments and then at the very end they're like, oh by the way all your loved ones are dead and so are 3 billion people. Judgment Day. I actually identified a bunch of things that I was like, bizarre choices that the film made.
00:41:47
Speaker
One was when the TX is going around killing all the future military important people. One of the people she kills is fast food worker. Said fast food worker is wearing his full name on a name tag. Have you ever seen someone at a job who has both their first and last name on a name tag?
00:42:05
Speaker
That isn't quite in trouble. Yeah, that's such a weird thing to do. I've had my first name on things, but you would never have your full name. That's a bizarre choice. I also noticed that when the police came to talk to, quote unquote, Catherine's fiance, who had been killed and was being impersonated by the TX to tell him about the news about Catherine.
00:42:24
Speaker
They updated him on where the case is currently, like where they think she might be. And it's like the police would not keep you abreast in that way until they had like found a security, because they don't know for a fact that it's her. So you're not going to be like, oh, yeah, we think that she's over by this gas station up the highway. Like they wouldn't do that. That's such a bizarre choice. And then being like, oh, yeah, we'll bring you along to go find her.
00:42:47
Speaker
Also, you would completely arrest that guy the minute he's opened the door. He's like, yes. And it's like, your fiance is missing. Oh, no. Like, he is screaming out like I've killed her and burned her in the backyard. Like, you would instantly arrest that guy.
00:43:00
Speaker
Yeah, another strange choice is later in the movie when the TX like reprograms Arnie to be on her side, she's got like a smirk on her face. This is a robot. Why is like he he he I'm winning. I noticed that when she's about to die in the look of fear on her face, like the robot wouldn't feel that there's no like ability to understand.
00:43:21
Speaker
No, I get that. In that regard, there's probably a desire to keep going. The T-1000 in the first movie shows signs of fear, and when it goes into the lava, it's writhing in agony and pain. Oh, you know what? I retract my statement.
00:43:34
Speaker
That's all fine. Next point, John Connor saying to Katherine Brewster at one point when Katherine Brewster picks up a gun and shoots down this drone, you remind me of my mother. Knowing that he is later going to marry her is the creepiest thing you could say. Yeah, there's no justification for that. I remember thinking,
00:43:52
Speaker
If anyone has like mummy issues though, it's John Connor. Because I'm like, this guy clearly has like a mummy issues after all the shit he's been through. So then John and Catherine get to this like secret bunker place before they know it's a bunker when they think that they're still going to shut down Skynet. They enter the bunker area and like to check the coast is clear. John just fires a machine gun to the room.
00:44:15
Speaker
And I was like, what are you checking here? What is that going to do? If any like bad things there, it's just going to alert them to you being around there. And they're like, if there are like people there, you might have just shot like people who could help you. So like, I thought that was such a weird decision. Maybe you guys think like, oh, no, that's a legit thing to do because he was checking to see if there was any booby traps, but like.
00:44:33
Speaker
I know what you do when you need to check something. If I go to the room, I just start firing a gun in the air. It's all clear. It's like that Simpson episode where Homer gets the gun and uses it to turn off the lights and the TV and stuff. It's like, why are you using this gun to check around? Use your eyes. He fired at us directly forward. It wasn't like he couldn't just see what was in front of him. And then this isn't a criticism. It was just something that made me laugh a lot was when initially the TX crashes a helicopter into the bunker to chase after them.
00:45:01
Speaker
And then Arnie crashes a second helicopter in there. When the second helicopter came in, I was just crying with laughter because it was just very funny. For one thing, how did Arnie know where they were? He wasn't abreast to where this location was. He'll search his databases. He'll know where Crystal Peak is. I guess maybe. Yeah, it was so weird, but it was just very funny. When one helicopter crashes, then a second helicopter crashes in. I thought that was very funny. That's like video game logic. You can't actually just safely land the helicopter. It has to either get shot down or it has to crash.
00:45:29
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a helicopter land before. I think it's... Wait, helicopters land? What? In a ball of fire. So just before we move on to the next film, is there any closing points that you want to say about this film? Adam Green Shield, this is your chance to either defend or ridicule this film for one last time. Do you want to go first Green Shield or...?
00:45:53
Speaker
Yeah, I'll jump in just quickly. I don't have the same kind of vitriol towards this as Satsunami and potentially Adam as well. I know a lot of things that were wrong with the movie and I didn't like, but I think it's still a fun action film. I think there's still fun to be had there. I saw it coming. I mean, I'd seen the film before. It was a long, very long time ago, but I saw it coming with the reveal at the end.
00:46:14
Speaker
that it wasn't in fact a facility to close down Skynet and it was like a safety bunker. But like, I still thought that was a clever reveal that they did. They did that. And my partner, she reacted like appropriately for that. And she thought, she thought, oh, my goodness, what like that, that was that's devastating for them. It's very clever kind of thing. And the fact that you could see that there was like a presidential podium kind of thing for the president to give his declaration speech in time of war.
00:46:36
Speaker
I do think that there was quite a few things that make this a fun action movie that has the enough in it that it makes it like a decent terminator film. I do think it is the weakest of the trilogy, but it is certainly stronger than those that come after it. And so I don't think it's a terrible movie. I think it is a very watchable, fun action romp. What are your thoughts, Adam?
00:46:59
Speaker
So I do think it's the weakest of the trilogy, of the original trilogy. I actually like this film quite a lot. Again, it's not perfect. There's a lot of flaws in it. But I still really enjoy it, to be honest. I actually have a lot of fun watching this. I actually ended up watching this film twice yesterday, the day before recording. I really do like this film.
00:47:16
Speaker
think it's a fairly good action film I think it's a fairly good Terminator film as well and I have to say like I love the ending to this film I generally think it was such a brave decision and I think it was I think it was the right decision and I think it's great like I love that they committed to that you know if this was to have been the end of the Terminator franchise I think it was actually a
00:47:33
Speaker
in a perfect ending and perfect just to have rounded all that and we ultimately know what's going to happen but I think it would have been a lovely kind of perfect sort of little bow on the end of it but my only big criticism of this film is I almost wish it had leaned far more into just the kind of nihilism and bleakness I think it's just a little bit tonally it can be a bit all over the place sometimes although I do think there are some actually genuinely funny moments
00:47:54
Speaker
in this. I think Arnie has some great lines. The one where he picks up John Carter and he's like, anger is better than despair really got a good laugh out of me than some of the other ones as well. So I do generally like this film. It's not a patch on Terminator 1 or Terminator 2 for me, but yeah, I'm with you. I actually do like this film. I think it's a lot of fun.
00:48:12
Speaker
on your point about the ending, I also, I think it's a really good transition into what will happen in this world that we don't necessarily need to see. But we know, we know from context of Terminator one, what happens. Because I think in Terminator one, it's revealed that humans are about to win. Yeah. And so the desperate attempt, the machines have sent back the T800 to stop Jon Connor from being born.
00:48:37
Speaker
And so that context clue suggests that, yes, there will be this apocalypse happening, but we will come out of it and likely win in this kind of cycle. I don't like the end bit with John Connor speaking into the radio. I feel because he's still kind of like muttering under his breath and he's like, yeah, I'm in charge now.
00:48:56
Speaker
That should have been the point I think where they should have pushed that this was the guy who was going to lead the resistance that was like the strong figure. I think they should have done a bit more with John Connor during the film to turn him into because if this was to be the last film, which we know now it's not, but if this was to be the last film in the series, it's rounded off that John Connor is now this strong figure that can then lead the resistance. And like he goes to the radio and you can barely hear what he says and he's like muttering.
00:49:22
Speaker
And I think the guy on the other end is like, who's that? Speak up. It's like, yeah, you're not the only one. If he properly stated who he was and that he's in a position to know how to deal with this threat and how he will lead everyone, he could give a fun kind of speech. The kind of thing that you see in, we're going to talk about Salvation in a second, but in Salvation, John Connor gives these podcasts.
00:49:42
Speaker
gives these little brave speeches, these radio broadcasts. And if he'd given something along those lines in this, then I think it would have been much better. Throwing back to Adam, if you have any opinion on that before we throw it then to Satsu. I completely agree with that. I think that was a misstep at the end there. Just you saying that about the lines that Christian Bale does as John Connor and Terminator. If the end line of Terminator 3 had been something like
00:50:07
Speaker
they're like, who's there is like, I'm John Connor, you're the resistance would have been such a great line to just end with, you know, and then we don't even need to really worry about the kind of ending monologue, you know, that would have just been the perfect like, this is the start of the war again, against skydirt now. So yeah, completely agree. No, those are some fantastic points, to be fair.
00:50:24
Speaker
Honestly, my kind of closing point about this film. It's a film that definitely, as you guys said, it's not the worst of the franchise. It's definite that there's bits that could have been done better, but there's a lot of whiplash in this film. You know, you've got the comedic moments. Like, for example, if you took a screenshot of Naked Army in that Ladies Night scene, and then you just take a scene of Manhattan or something getting blown up by a nuclear weapon, you wouldn't connect
00:50:54
Speaker
films together. At the same time I totally agree with what you were saying Adam, it is good that they did just commit to an ending. They didn't try to say oh it's another T2 or another T1 but my conflict for this film is just the fact that it does feel almost like they are setting up for like a franchise. It's not like
00:51:14
Speaker
T1 and T2, you know they had very closed endings where they wrapped a bow and everything and then for Terminator 3 they're like oh no, Judgment Day is gonna happen. So I do agree with you, I think that the nihilism aspect could have been explored a bit more but at the same time there are a lot of fun scenes in this, there's a lot of
00:51:32
Speaker
action that although it maybe goes on for quite a while, at least they have fun with a lot of the actors, you know, with the TX, with the T850, and Green Chill going on to your point, I totally agree. I think John Connor spends a majority of the film moaning about not wanting Judgment Day to happen for obvious reasons. It's not like saying, oh I don't want ketchup with my fries, it's more like I don't want the world to burn.
00:51:59
Speaker
But the way, as you said, it's almost like a school child going up to give a presentation and being like, you're up to O'Connor, I love you, hello. Overall, yeah, this album's not the worst. It's not the best of the trilogy, but it's certainly not the worst. And that segue is very well into Terminator Salvation, which was released in 2009 and it is such a meme.
Salvation's Reputation: A Low Point in the Series
00:52:24
Speaker
at this point that I remember when Adam and I went to see these films together we saw a back-to-back feature where they showed Terminator 1 and then they showed Terminator 2 right after it and I remember the guy or one of the staff members coming out and making a joke saying oh welcome to a double billing of Terminator Salvation and everybody laughed and things so this film and the franchises
00:52:49
Speaker
really cemented as one of the worst ones. Looking at the future ones, and we will talk about that in future episodes, but looking at the other ones I don't think it is the worst in hindsight. But it certainly doesn't make this film any better. Going to you Adam, what can you tell us about Terminator Salvation? What is this film about? Okay well I'm going to the late great Roger Ebert here in his summary of Terminator Salvation. So are you ready? Terminator Salvation
00:53:17
Speaker
The story is Guy dies, finds himself resurrected, meets others, fights. That lasts for almost two hours. Thank you. I'm here all week. You know what? That's a perfect summary. I actually can't add any more to that. I mean, I don't know how I can improve on that, but the general plot of Terminator Salvation is we're now deep in the war
00:53:39
Speaker
between humans and skynet john connor is a prominent soldier in the resistance but not quite the leader and he's a bit of a bit of a rogue and a bit of an outsider the renegade he's a renegade exactly with it with the podcasters he should already already pointed out i too am a bit of a john connor
00:53:57
Speaker
What, you mean that, like, rousing speech at the end? Was it enough for them in salvation? Apparently not. They needed more. So, yeah, so he is trying to basically find Kyle Reese and protect him because Kyle Reese is his father in a very convoluted way. But that's his goal. At the same time, we're introduced to a character called Marcus, who was prisoner, who was executed by the state just before Judgment Day happens. And then Marcus was resurrected and questions, who is he? Why is he here? What happens? He goes searching for answers. And he happens to
00:54:25
Speaker
come across Kyle Reese, surprise, surprise. We have the story of John and the story of Marcus and they will intersect at many points as we barrel towards a climax of some sort. And what a climax it is because it is one of the most boring films I think I've ever watched.
00:54:41
Speaker
It's one of these films that has action for the sake of action that reminds me a wee bit of Man of Steel where it's just nothing but gritty action and it feels very generic. I don't know how you guys feel but it feels very generic. This is genuinely one of my issues and you're probably going to laugh at this green shield but I was moaning to Adam about this.
00:55:02
Speaker
So, in Terminator 1 and 2, we see glimpses of the future. We see like a very blue, purpley palette. We see all these skulls everywhere, these machines with treads on them, like hunting through the debris, trying to kill humans. All these lasers firing around. Remember the lasers because this is going to be very important in a second.
00:55:24
Speaker
Where are the lasers in this film? Where's the futuristic aspect of this? Because the only thing terminator about this film are the T600s, the T800s, the stereotypical terminator design. There's no lasers. There's no inkling of having like a resistance movement. They're all pretty well organized. They've got helicopters for Christ's sake. They've got this
00:55:46
Speaker
massive army, so it seems almost as if it is just like the American army against Skynet, which, you know, you have to focus on one part of the world, but it just feels very generic. It doesn't feel futuristic bar, obviously the terminators and the machines, but Grigio, do you agree with that?
00:56:03
Speaker
Yes and no, I do agree on the generic side. I do think it is very cookie cutter, sci-fi action kind of movie. I've seen lots of films very similar to it from around that period. It doesn't really leave a mark so much in that way. But to the point you're saying about it's not future enough and what we see from flashes forward, I guess in the other movies, what we're seeing those flashes forward are is another like 10 year, 10, 15 years into the future.
00:56:30
Speaker
And so presumably in that time, you then are developing these other robots like the T1000, the TX, these machines haven't been made at this point in Terminator Salvation. Like Skynet hasn't developed much further along than what they've been able to make with the T800s. So I can understand why it's not quite as advanced. The most advanced thing that I noticed was the gigantic scavenger robot thing that like grabbed people. So do you mean the most silent
00:56:59
Speaker
gigantic Pacific Rim looking. Yeah, I don't know how it snuck up on them. Every step of it would shake the ground, so that was very bizarre. And it took the girl star who's mute was the only one who realized it was coming. Yeah, there's not noticing a terminator sneaking up on you versus, as you said, this gargantuan machine that kisses and goes, oh.
00:57:25
Speaker
snatches here. These people genuinely act like Skyrim NPCs, you know that way when you sneak and you fire an arrow at their face and then they just go, oh, must have been the wind. They all had buckets on their head, they weren't able to see this, whatever, the child snatcher robot come up and get them. The child snatcher robot. I like that. The shitty shitty bang bang robot.
00:57:44
Speaker
Another robot design, so this is me directly talking to the Skynet scientists here. As I said before, in Terminator 1 and 2, you see these robots that fly around, you see ones that have tank treads, because you're going to be on battlefields that are very, very uneven, right? You're going to be in ones that you have to roll over, and that is a very brutal image, because if you think of a tank,
00:58:07
Speaker
They're very brutal and massive hulking war machines and things. It's the same with these ones in Terminator. Apologies for the profanity. Skip five seconds. But why the fuck do they have motorcycles in the future where there's skulls everywhere? Presumably the infrastructure of the roads are even worse in this film than they are in the future. Why do they have motorcycles? What idiot
00:58:33
Speaker
at Skynet was like, we need motorcycles. My guess is because they're like, sleek and fast, but I mean, you could also have like a drone do the same job. So I'm not quite sure why the motorcycles are a thing. Can I pick up on your point there, Satsu? And I agree with everything you said about the bikes. Why also does Skynet have water snakes? What was the deal with them? And who also put them in that water as well? How did they get there? Did they wriggle in there? Did someone go drop them into this like, a presumably like a pond?
00:58:57
Speaker
I was like, all right, maybe they're there to find things like the submarine. I'm like, okay, that makes sense, but they're all in shallow water. They're all in rivers. What are they looking for? People having a good summer day is frolicking in the water, like, ha, got them. Do you think someone watched a documentary before they filmed this about, you know how people go in the water and Amazonian rainforest and things like that?
00:59:19
Speaker
They have all these horrid creatures just underneath the water. Do you think they watch that and they're all like, I want something similar in my film. You want water snakes. You want electric eels, literally electric eels in your film. It's like, yeah, why? G watched both, as you say, like the horrifying Amazonian nature documentary. And he also watched The Great Escape because I'm watching this film. I could not believe how many references there are to The Great Escape in this film.
00:59:43
Speaker
It made me laugh how many times things are referenced, scenes are parodied, it was just astounding. The motorcycle jump. There's the bit where John Connor strings the wire across and knocks the Terminator motorbike. That's taken from the Great Escape. There's a bit where somebody climbs up a fence to get away and is gunned down. There's so many of them, I couldn't believe it.
01:00:02
Speaker
I do think with your point about the motorbikes as well, why do they design the motorbikes in such a way that should a human reprogram it, it could also ride it pretty easily like a regular motorbike? It doesn't need to be built in a way that's rideable. Should I have a giant spike on a saddle or something? Yeah, some anti-pigeon spikes kind of thing. Oh, too spiky.
01:00:24
Speaker
I can't lead the resistance now, it's uncomfortable. Speaking of leading the resistance, can we go back to Christian Bale, who of course plays John Connor, and the fact that there is absolutely no need for him in this song. We're kind of alluded to it when we're talking about Terminator 3 and how John Connor should have been like a secondary character.
01:00:44
Speaker
in this film he absolutely needed to be a secondary character but for some reason it's like one person writing this story and then someone who's written the fan fiction of the same property trying to insert their story because I know there's like behind the scenes stuff of is it right in saying that Christian Bale wanted like a bigger role in this film and they refused to do it unless he was?
01:01:10
Speaker
That might be, I don't know that story, but that might be true. I think they certainly were at points in production planning for John Connor to be a much more secondary character, so that might explain why he's given much more prominence. I think as well, the minute you hire an actor, Christian Bale still is a very big actor, but he was especially a rising star at this point. The minute you hire someone like that, you're kind of almost backed into a corner of making them sort of front and centre.
01:01:34
Speaker
He doesn't really do anything in this. The worst thing, this is probably up there with one of the worst and weirdest scenes in human history, where he wants access for whatever reason humanity has this base and a submarine, which you think, okay, that kind of makes sense. But then he's like, oh, can you give me permission to come on board? And he's like, no, no, we can't. And keep in mind, this is a very stormy ocean. And he's like, no, you can't come in. And he's like, okay, I'll jump in.
01:02:04
Speaker
a motion just to go in. And then he gets berated by Michael Ironside to please a general. He does this big thing like, you know we had to send out our rescue crews just to get you. How did he survive that? It's bad enough searching the oceans for other things, but searching the ocean for someone in the middle of a storm. It is weird. It's like a very jarring scene when you're sitting there like,
01:02:29
Speaker
really is this the leader of the resistance but trying to kill himself constantly? Like I mean what did you think Green Shield? Yeah I'm not sure I know the scene you're talking about to be honest. I don't know if I missed that scene. Do you remember that Adam? It's very dark and I know the scene you're talking about like you might have missed it because it is like near pitch black in the thing and then like yeah as you say we don't even see John Connor jump into the ocean. Yeah that's that strange.
01:02:52
Speaker
I don't know, like, all the acting in this film doesn't feel great. And I don't think it's all to do with the actors. I think a lot of it's to do with the writing of some of these characters. But as well, like, I don't know, I forgot as well, this was obviously the height of this was a time Sam Worthington was a big star as well. Oh, my God. Sorry. Sam Worthington is the same character in every movie he plays. Like, he just plays the like really confused about everything that's happening around him kind of guy.
01:03:20
Speaker
I think I've seen him in three things, so maybe I don't have his full sample size, but in Avatar, in this, and in Clash of the Titans, I wanna say. Yeah, he was in that. He's always just so confused by everything around him, and he just has a constant perplexed face going on. You know what you can add to that list as well? He also voiced Alex Mason in Black Ops, Black Ops 1 and Black Ops 2. Really? Yeah, so you can add the confused...
01:03:43
Speaker
If you think as well, they're for the first game. But yeah, I don't want to be mean to Sam Worthington, but I'm kind of with Green Shields. I don't think he's a particularly good actor. And I do have to laugh that his American accent is constantly dropping out at points throughout the film. Where is he from? He's from Australia, I think. Or maybe New Zealand. I think it's Australia. There's so many Australian New Zealand actors in Hollywood. And I didn't realize. Yeah, I know. They're taking over. They're like the Skynet version of actors. They've infiltrated Hollywood. They have.
01:04:10
Speaker
Oh my god. But yeah, I think the Marcus character is kind of confusing as well, because we're given very little time. He's right at the beginning, and we're given very little time to be like, okay, sympathise with this guy. And I'm like, but why? He doesn't seem like a very nice person. No, sympathise with him. Trust me, it's important later. And then Hell in a Bottom Carton shows up for...
01:04:27
Speaker
for two minutes. And I found that first scene very uncomfortable between the two of them. I did not enjoy watching that scene in the prison cell. But then, yeah, I did have to like how we had the credits rolled over this man getting executed. I was like, wow, this doesn't feel like a great scene either. Yeah. And then the whole thing of when he comes up and then he turns out he's a robot. And I feel like as well, I feel like they felt at this point it couldn't be a Terminator film unless they had a good robot in there. It felt like it was like, well, we can't not have a good Terminator.
01:04:51
Speaker
in the film where this film would like if he had just been a regular human or whatever like it would have made no difference the machine thing I think just kind of adds it just confuses the plot and I feel like the problem with this film like as a film is I feel like the first half has just so many like competing subplots that it's kind of like a bit of a mess I think it gets a little better towards the end because they kind of shrink down and start to converge so we've got Marcus trying to find out who he is we then got the fact that we find out he's a robot like what's happening there we've got the secret signal it's going to shut all the Skynet down we've
01:05:17
Speaker
John Connor looking for Kyle Reese with Kyle Reese trying to survive in the way. There's so many things happening. It's just like they really needed to just I think strip it back a bit and just focus on a couple of things. I think that would have made for a much like tighter and better experience. Going back to the history of good robots, like you have to see both sides of the argument. Both sides need to be represented. Like maybe there's some good robots out there.
01:05:37
Speaker
Do you know what it reminds me of, and this is slightly off topic, but I'm thinking of like another sci-fi franchise that I keep thinking, what would happen if they had a PR department and how many would quit on day one? So I was thinking back to Star Wars and how, you know how the Empire takes over and everything, and back in the day when it came out all they had were the Stormtroopers and everything, and they had like Darth Vader, and although a guy in like a creepy mask and everything doesn't give the best impression, you thought okay,
01:06:07
Speaker
maybe they can spin that into some kind of propaganda of, oh, we're just doing this to protect you. And then in later iterations of Star Wars, they bring in things called Inquisitors who are like these, you know, like clothed in dark clothing, they've got like bright red lightsabers and you're like, being PRP.
01:06:24
Speaker
people for them as a nightmare. So I can't imagine being PR for Skynet to be like, oh yes, our terminators are doing this for humanity. Because I actually looked this up. I looked up why Skynet did what it did, why it wiped out humanity. And apparently it changes per film. I think the first two was it was scared of being turned off and it was doing it for the betterment of humanity. And then somebody said, I don't know how true this is, but I'm sure someone said that in Terminator Salvation they felt guilty
01:06:54
Speaker
or something about taking over humanity so that's why they were trying to create like hybrids and things and that's where the whole Marcus thing comes in. The Marcus thing as you were saying like the Marcus thing is that there's just too much going on and that's the thing though because in Terminator 2 and I know I keep going back to Terminator 1 and 2 but in Terminator 2 the fact that the T-800 was trying to explore how humanity was interesting
01:07:19
Speaker
Because you know why? Because he was a robot, he had no humanity to begin with, and by the end of it, when he's getting lowered down, he realises why John Connor was crying, why Linda Hamilton felt the way she did, and this one that's like, oh, Marcus is trying to find his humanity, and it's like, he's already a human, a bad human at that. But there was no reason for him going all Wizard of Oz at the end and giving John Connor his heart.
01:07:46
Speaker
Oh my god, another film it references. Yeah, it does the Shawshank Redemption early on where Marcus like crawls out like covered in mud in the rain and just goes, just screaming for some reason. The first day I met Marcus, I knew he was a robot.
01:08:02
Speaker
They can borrow another tagline from the buzzard of ours if they only had a brain. That's all I'm saying. And then to continue on that point, Skynet's plan with Marcus, at the end where it's revealed like their entire plan was that Marcus would befriend Kyle Reese, have Kyle Reese be taken into Skynet, which would then lure John Connor to come and rescue him because Marcus would make contact with John Connor as well.
01:08:26
Speaker
and the two of them would would sneak in together just so that John Connor could be brought into Skynet headquarters to terminate him. And then at which point Marcus would then go, Oh, okay, I'll join Skynet now. What was the logic from Skynet that that would be like, at one point, I think they said that like they took a risky kind of decision, which is very unusual for Skynet.
01:08:47
Speaker
But it seemed like a lot of risky things and a lot of things that would need to pay off for those things to work. And then at the end of that, that Marcus would decide, yes, I realise I'm a machine, I'm going to stay with you guys. Of all the organs that they could have taken out of Marcus, why did they keep his brain? I mean, I know they had the chip inside, but he could have torn that out easily. Why didn't they just give him a cybernetic brain?
01:09:12
Speaker
I guess because he needed to think that he was himself inhuman in order to infiltrate, and so if they'd made him a robot, then he would've not been able to infiltrate as well. Skynet loves the drama. That's the way I look at all of this. Skynet wants to do this in the most dramatic way possible. Because the thing that makes the most sense is, okay, the minute that the child snatches a robot and gets hold of Kyle, and recognises that it's Kyle, it's holding in its hand, it should just crush him in his hand, and that would- Skynet would win, because John Connor wouldn't exist anymore.
01:09:39
Speaker
but because Kynet wants to be dramatic, they have to put this whole plan together. This is clearly like a higher up site. Right, I've made this whole plan and they're like, oh, but we could just kill Kyle. No, no, no, no, that's just phase one of the plan. Okay, we're gonna move to phase two after that and it's gonna be great. It's gonna be great, guys. Okay, maybe you guys can explain this to me, because there's like a paradox.
01:09:56
Speaker
I feel here where why does Skynet know at this point that Kyle Reese and John Connor are
Skynet's Search: Questioning Motives and Knowledge
01:10:02
Speaker
important? Why are they searching for Kyle Reese and John Connor? John Connor is not the leader of the resistance. He does the podcast, I guess he does the radio broadcast to motivate everyone. So I could guess that might be important. But how would they know that Kyle Reese is significant to him at this point? Because they've not gone back in time. That is a truly excellent point, Rachel, because Skynet doesn't know who they don't know who John's father is. They know who his mother is. But that that is an excellent point.
01:10:25
Speaker
There's no, it's his plot. The only, okay, so in Terminator 3, this virus that they end up using Skynet to combat, that was released by the TX, correct? Did the TX start that virus? Oh, is that what she does on the phone? I think that's where the virus comes from, that they're protecting. I guess that virus might contain the information, or like what she knows, to tell Skynet about those kind of things.
01:10:51
Speaker
That's the only way I could think that, like, how Skynet knows the significance of John Connor and Kyle Reese. It's very bizarre that they would know at that point the significance of them. I have no answer because it makes no sense. No, you're right, because they do blow up the human command centre, don't they, with the submarine? Yeah. Where they launch a huge torpedo into it and you're like, well, okay, that's humanity destroyed, the head's cut off, aha! But no, they have like this
01:11:19
Speaker
foresight to be like oh we know the future so they become less a thinking binary machine to more I don't know fortune tellers at this point to be like oh we calculated this it's like there's no way you would pick out John Connor as you said he's relatively high up like he's not a commander he's not the member of like any council or anything he's just John Connor captain commander whatever the rank he is lieutenant I don't know Adam do you remember
01:11:46
Speaker
Oh, general, major, lieutenant, private. Pick anyone. That one. General pain in the ass, yeah. This film is honestly, it's all over the place. It's one of these films that, and again, going back to what you were saying, Green Shield, about remembering that scene, there is a lot of moments, I have to admit, where I remember I was watching it and I was like, I don't remember that happening.
01:12:08
Speaker
You know, like with the Terminator motorcycles, with the child catcher robot, with the submarine as well. I remember that scene of him jumping in, but it's just so hard to see a lot of things in this film. It is literally, it is a very dark film and it is hard to see anything.
01:12:25
Speaker
I actually did remember a fair chunk of this movie, like the child catching robot I remembered. I think because it reminded me of like the War of the Worlds kind of thing which always frightened me as a child. I remember the motorcycles just purely because I remembered the like tripwire thing that he does and how he like and how John Connor steals one
CGI Arnie: Appearance and Quality Issues
01:12:41
Speaker
of them.
01:12:41
Speaker
And the certain things that I remembered wrong, I thought that the CGI Arnie was in it for longer. At the end, I thought that it was a really long fight. But he's in it for a minute or so, and then they melt off his Arnie skin, presumably because the CGI just looked awful. It looked like human Shrek from Shrek 2. The CGI was awful, so I assume it cost a lot, and it looked bad. So they were like, all right, we'll have it melt off pretty quickly. So we'll have a very quick reference
01:13:06
Speaker
it's bad because it further cements the fact like, oh, you didn't actually get Arnie for this movie. Why bother referencing him? Well, it's insane that after Terminator 3, that's when he ran for the governor. He got his governor at the point of this film was released. For good reasons, that's why he wasn't in the film. But then again, I could imagine him saying, I don't want to be in this film and then like, what about this money? Yeah, no, he'd still say no.
01:13:32
Speaker
I think just a little bit more on CGI Arnie there as well. I think what makes it extra bad is that I think actually one good thing about this film I'd say is that it actually uses quite a lot of practical effects, which I think is actually quite good and lends like a bit of realism towards it. But it makes CGI Arnie and that whole fight at the end just look extra ridiculous. And for me, it kind of borders into the territory again of like the T850, the TX fight. It's just these machines like throwing each other around, like smashing through things. It just looks stupid.
01:13:58
Speaker
I do think that the T800, like walking around, look brilliant. That has done so, so well. I don't know if they're CG or if they're practical effects or what, but like compare that to like the stop motion that they did for the T800 in Terminator 1. It looks so sleek. I think that's certainly a positive towards it. It looks really good. I don't know if you either of you ever been to Universal Studios and been to the Terminator kind of experience there. They shut it down now. It's gone.
01:14:26
Speaker
That was really fun. The robot and that were very akin to those in Salvation. And so that's how I view the Terminator robots. And so when I went back and watched Terminator 1, then I was like, oof, they did what they could at the time, but it looks rough, kind of thing. This is me. I prefer the stop motion to the smooth motion. That's probably not a popular opinion. That's just my own. Because I find the stop motion very frightening. Very frightening and unnerving, so it works well. Yeah, it's only uncanny, I think, is the
01:14:55
Speaker
I can see your point, though. That's a very personal opinion to me, so I wouldn't blame anybody for sharing your opinion. Yeah, and I did like the fact that they included things like the T600 and stuff, like the ones that have the rubber skin and stuff, and is that attempt to try and look human but really don't at all? My only problem with that is that they don't look human, but the thing that gives them away is the giant freaking minigun that they're carrying around that you can see from a distance and be like, that's probably a robot. I don't see many human beings holding a minigun with one hand.
01:15:22
Speaker
I never played it, but they remind me of the Warhammer 40k. Is that what it is? Warhammer 40k? Yeah, it reminds me of like one of the kind of Marines from that. Yeah, no, that's a fair point. Most of the effects aren't overly bad. I couldn't really agree with you on that. The T-800 army at the very end is a bit rough. Like, no offense to Arnold Schwarzenegger, but the effects are terrible. So the fact they blasted his face off of that probably did the CGI some service.
01:15:52
Speaker
but this film is just over the place to be honest, like from the action to the effects. As I said before, it doesn't feel like a terminator film at times bar having the terminators in them. Skipping ahead, as it is when we're talking about there with the ending, what did you guys think about the ending? So to kind of fill in everyone else, the ending basically culminates at this terminator camp
01:16:18
Speaker
I can't actually remember what the terminators do with the humans. It's like, do they take their skin? Do they make them work on terminators? What's the deal? I wasn't clear on that either. If Adam's able to clarify that, that would be helpful. Why are they like farming these humans? I was thinking about the matrix and how they use them for batteries. I'm like, no, that's the matrix. That's not what they do for
Human Camps: Purpose and Parallels
01:16:40
Speaker
terminators. I wasn't sure.
01:16:41
Speaker
I don't know the deep- there's probably like a book or some like deep lore that explains so I don't know that but the way I always took it and going from how the first film describes it because the way that Kyle Reese describes the future is that in the future that he grew up in it's like there is no human resistance like the machines have basically won and what they've done is that the humans who haven't been killed in the nuclear war and like the initial sort of takeover have all been like rounded up into these kind of camps
01:17:05
Speaker
It's basically implied it's very much like a Holocaust type thing where, you know, the camps are there for the extermination of humans, but some are kept alive for things like body. I mean, sorry, this isn't incredibly dark and do apologize for this, but it's like they're kept alive for things like body removal and some work tasks and things like that. But they're eventually going to be exterminated. And then John Connor kind of is the one who like brings it all together and like creates a resistance and like breaks the humans out of the camps. And that's when the resistance is formed and they begin the proper fight back against the machines.
01:17:34
Speaker
It seems like in Salvation, there seems like a like a main kind of major Skynet location, which is like part manufacturing plant, part command center, but also part kind of concentration camp style. And I guess the humans are there to be killed. There's some kind of elements that obviously when they get off the robot and they're going to get like shuffled into the camp to begin with, there's those kind of overtone to it and everything. But I'm not really sure. Like I don't think the film really wants to go into what's going to happen here and stuff. But like my guess is it's something like that. It's like an extermination type thing.
01:18:04
Speaker
I do wonder, like I noticed there's like cat scan kind of machines at one point, I wonder if it's like research purposes so they can like study the humans and like understand them and so like if they do make robots like infiltrate the humans that like they can be more convincing. Yeah, like that's probably a fair point as well.
01:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, that's kind of my thought. It might be also like, I mean, what they used Cal Race for was to lure people in and be less likely that the humans would bomb their factory because they know that they might hurt other humans. So they might be using it as like leverage against the humans. I can't remember if they actually do touch on that in the film if they're like, oh, it's because of these humans that are there and this stuffy general is like, we've got to attack now. And John Connor's like,
01:18:47
Speaker
and the hero of the resistance we don't attack now. And you know it's like back and forth and back and forth and you're like sweet Jesus just attack it already. And yeah you end up getting this huge battle scene where all the resistance members and prisoners are running away and the big showdown between the T-800 and John Connor and John Connor just gets absolutely annihilated and
01:19:10
Speaker
killed and as I alluded to before Marcus gives his heart up for John Connor to live. Now just before we kind of talk about our final thoughts and our thoughts on the ending Adam you had like a very interesting piece of trivia for an alternative ending to this film.
01:19:29
Speaker
Yeah, so this absolutely fascinated me. I revealed half of the ending before we went on air, but this absolutely blew my mind that this was supposed to be the original ending to Salvation. So here we go. So the original ending was to have John Connor killed, but his image would be kept alive by the resistance grafting his skin onto Marcus's cybernetic body. Now that is wild. That is wild to begin with.
01:19:50
Speaker
But then, Marcus was then supposed to murder Kate Brewster, Kyle Reese and Starr. I don't particularly like the ending to Terminator Salvation now, but that original ending is wild. Like, I don't understand what they're going for.
01:20:03
Speaker
so that they don't know. They kind of spread that it's not the real John Connor. Well, you mean the first bit why his skin is grafted onto Mark, which is wild to begin with. That's some leather face shit there. But yeah, so I guess to keep the idea of John Connor alive. But then the fact that Mark has then murdered Kate Brewster and Kyle Reese. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Are we killing them because they were present and they knew that it's not the real John Connor? And so to stop them telling anyone, they killed them?
01:20:33
Speaker
I guess, but because John Connor's dead, it doesn't matter now that Carl Reese's dies, because to me it's crazy. Like, I don't get, like, I can kind of, the first bit is crazy and wild to me, but I kind of can get it to an extent. It's in that second bit that just, I'm like, was this just like a shock for, for the sake of being a shock?
01:20:50
Speaker
If you can kill John Connor and have Marcus replace him and pretend to be him, so long as like the likes of Kyle Reese don't know. So then Kyle, cause then Kyle Reese can go, still go back leaving in John Connor and then give birth to the original John Connor or impregnate Sarah Connor to give birth to the original John Connor.
01:21:09
Speaker
Yeah, if you kill Kyle Reese, then that ends. And like, Katherine Brewster is then supposed to send Arnie back in Terminator 3 to protect John Connor after John Connor is killed by that same Arnie. But at that point, it could have been Marcus John Connor. And so maybe that's why Katherine wasn't as upset in the situation. They were able to reprogram Arnie instead of just like destroying him.
01:21:32
Speaker
I don't understand what the hell was going on with that original ending. As I say, I don't particularly like the endings in the film. It's okay, I don't think it's anything special, but I don't get what they were going for with that. I don't really like Genesis for the way it kind of messes up the Terminator timeline, but this would have been worse. I don't know what the hell would have gone after that, so that's wild. Saturday, do you have any thought? Do you have anything to add?
01:21:55
Speaker
to like make sense of this or like any thoughts because it just blew my mind reading that. Well if you read the Wikipedia page for this you'll see that there's like a deep and interesting lore answer for this but yeah we'll save that for the next episode now.
01:22:11
Speaker
I have no idea. It's horrific as it is and you gave me into trouble for this Adam. You can't put skin over guns and send them back in time. What is this then? You know what, I apologise for giving you crap for that. That seems like a tame logical...
01:22:28
Speaker
take now compared to what I've just read. I would rather see guns wrapped in meat bags than John Connor's skin. Don't stretch over Marcus's metallic body. Not even similar sizes. Marcus is huge and John Connor's kind of like Slim. It's like you know those Botox faces you see where you put the skin on your back?
01:22:49
Speaker
Oh my god. My beautiful Kate. It's like, no. And then the film just ends. Duh duh duh duh duh duh duh divorce. Anyway. Could you fuck me? I'd fuck me. No. Oh my god. So we went from the Shawshank Redemption to fucking Silence of the Lambs over here. Talking about Tamara Free having a depressing ending but let's not forget Salvation was going to end with the death of an eight year old child.
01:23:13
Speaker
Well, I mean, Terminator 3 ended with the death of, like, a billion eight-year-old children, so... I know, but we didn't see that at the end of the day. We didn't get to know those billion eight-year-old children. And that really was the issue of Terminator 3. We didn't get to meet those eight billion children.
01:23:25
Speaker
Well, I can't believe I'm quoting Joseph Stalin on the podcast, but that's the death of one man's a tragedy, the death of millions a statistic. So maybe onto our final thoughts. This is my Terminator and Soviet Russia. Yeah, I don't know. What are your final thoughts on this problem before you get us cancelled?
01:23:45
Speaker
I don't know, I do apologize. Yeah, my thoughts on Salvation as a whole, like, I kind of have similar thoughts on Salvation as I had on the Doom film, that I think if you strip off the kind of Terminator name and the Terminator imagery from this, I think it's like an average to just below average, like, sci-fi action film, like, it's not great, but I don't think it's terrible, and I think you can have some fun and some enjoyment watching it, but as somebody who, somebody especially who really loves the first Terminator film, what really annoys me about this film is the way it messes with that,
01:24:15
Speaker
We don't have, there's no, there's no laser guns. It's all just regular guns. This isn't like a resistance movement anymore. This is like a conventional war now, basically, between the humans and the machines. Kyle Reese's mood from being this PTSD kid who's grown up in like, you know, the most horrific circumstances. It's almost like a kind of plucky wastelander. He's getting by in the post-apocalyptic world. We have a T-800 introduced far too early on when it's supposed to be like something right at the end.
01:24:38
Speaker
of the war. It's coming far too early and there's just too much in here that irritates me and messes with, especially at a time when we're not into the stage yet where the films were starting to rewrite timeline and everything. This was still very much supposed to be a continuation of that original timeline. So the fact that it's messing with all that stuff annoys me. But yeah, so like strip off the Terminator imagery. I think it's fine. I think it's fine as a film. Like I think it's a bit messy, a bit too much going on, but it's passable.
01:25:01
Speaker
certainly, but with all the Terminator imagery and lore and what it does, it's just the anchor again that weighs it down. I don't really care for this film. I really don't care for it.
01:25:11
Speaker
Yeah, jumping in there, I kind of echo the point there. I agree, if it wasn't a Terminator movie and it was just like a sci-fi robot war movie, it would be a six or seven out of 10, I think. I think probably closer to a six. Like it's passable, it's enjoyable enough. I think it's hindered by it needing to be linked to the Terminator franchise that because it then brings it down because it's then a weak Terminator film rather than being a semi-decent sci-fi film.
01:25:37
Speaker
It's a tricky one because it leaves a sour taste in your mind because it doesn't really fulfil either role particularly well then. What are your impressions then, Sasanami? Well, seeing this as Adam's favourite film, I don't want to step into many tools here. Oh, good for you! I'm going to go Christian Bale on your ass. You know where I was. That's actually very scary. Please don't. It's a joke.
01:25:59
Speaker
Jokes aside though, going back to a point that was made earlier there, when you look at this film as a continuation of the original films, I actually don't think
01:26:10
Speaker
It's a good point. I don't think this was meant to be like a
Salvation's Place in the Quadrology
01:26:14
Speaker
reboot. Even though technically there are rebutty elements of it, there's not anything that would, you know, completely disregard 1-3. And I actually remember when this film came out, they packaged all four films together as a quadrology, which I think was actually the first time I ever heard that word. You know, it was like, what the hell is a quadrology? And you look at it and you go, oh, a quadrology.
01:26:39
Speaker
know like it seemed weird to include that I know some situations but it is weird to consider this was a continuation in all of the same both the universe and of the same caliber as Terminator 1, 2 and begrudgingly is 3 so yeah they were trying to like cling on to that staple of this franchise they were trying to cling on to the past and I think
01:27:08
Speaker
Personally for me, I think this is why they went the direction they did with Genesis and Dark Fate, where they tried to completely reboot the entire franchise. Yeah, we will talk about that next week, to be honest. We are running out of time to talk about Genesis and thingy, but... These movies, one to three, lean very heavily on the time travel element with the sci-fi.
01:27:32
Speaker
Whereas Salvation doesn't include that at all. There's the awareness of time travel with the likes of needing to rescue Kyle Reese so that he can travel back in time and be with Sarah Connor. But without that, without Arnie, you are left with a very bland sci-fi story that has been kind of done to death in many ways with regards to like a fighting against either like an alien or robot kind of uprising kind of thing.
01:27:57
Speaker
So yeah, I think that that's really what salvation lacks that time travel interest. And I've not seen Genesis or Dark Fate. I assume both of those involve time travel. I know that like that doesn't rescue them from what I've heard that they're both not very good movies. But I think salvation is very unique and unfortunate in that it's relying entirely on this sci fi robot war.
01:28:22
Speaker
story that isn't particularly interesting because the time travel aspect is what makes a lot of the Terminator films quite interesting. I think the main issue, and this will be my final point to worry about, I feel was that the issue the more these films go on is in the first film it was a killer machine that
01:28:42
Speaker
completely could not be stopped, as Coyote says in the film, he says it can't be bargained with, it can't be stopped, it can't be destroyed, it can't be killed and all of that. In Terminator 2, as I've said before, and I know this is a point I always say, but it does feel as if that was the time where they did start to pluck these tropes, because it's such a good film, they plucked certain tropes like
01:29:04
Speaker
Oh, we have to have bigger and badder terminators, and we have to have this kind of machine-on-machine action. The fact that the T-800 is plunging the T-1000, they're having a big brawl, that was cool to see. But when you get to Terminator 3 and you get the TX and everything, you're like,
01:29:22
Speaker
god this is just so dull and it just seems over the top and then when you get to Terminator Salvation it's almost as if they said right we're gonna have a Blue Peter contest and all these kids are gonna draw their favourite robots and we're gonna try to incorporate it in any way we can. That's why you've got the motorcycle one, you've got the electric eels, you've got the child catcher robot, you know you've got all of these like elements that
01:29:48
Speaker
should be a relatively good story, but there's no direction. See, after the original trilogy, like Judgment Day happened, this is something I am going to talk about in future episodes, but the only short of it is I think they made a terrible mistake by placing so much emphasis on John Connor as a pivotal character.
01:30:07
Speaker
Because at the end of the day, there's a whole world out there being dominated by Skynet. There's a whole vast world, and there's loads of stories they could have brought in. But at the end of the day, they have this narrow view of, let's focus on John Connor, even though in this film he has nothing to do.
01:30:25
Speaker
crux of it is John Connor's Marketable. You could say Sarah Connor, John Connor, Kyle Reese. These are characters that you know. So to throw these into such a generic action film and say, oh yeah, do you remember these characters and you think, that's not enough to save this film. And again,
01:30:42
Speaker
I'm going to point this out before we finish up, but this isn't the worst. I don't know. I wouldn't say after watching Genesis and Dark Fate, this is probably the most boring I would say. Adam, would you agree with this on Greed Guild as well? But would you agree that this isn't the worst one I would say, but it's certainly the most boring out of all of them?
01:31:04
Speaker
That's maybe fair. I've yet to see dark fate, so I will reserve judgement until I've seen that one, but I would probably agree with you that I think Genesis is worse, but slightly more interesting for what it's trying to do and some of the decisions it makes.
01:31:20
Speaker
Well, I agree that this is quite a dull film. There's not all that much to really get excited about or get completely angry about, you know, despite the fact that I had a little bit of a nerd rage at the lower changes. I don't think there's all that much to get really worked up about. I mean, Ironic, since Christian Bela does freak out, but I would agree with you generally on that point.
01:31:36
Speaker
Yeah, I agree as well that I have not seen either Genesis or Dark Fate, so I can't say for sure. But like, it is the least interesting of those I've seen. It is my least favorite of those that I've seen. But I figured from what I've heard of Dark Fate and Genesis, I probably would enjoy this more than those ones. But again, I can't say that for sure.
01:31:55
Speaker
I do think that there are some things I do like. I know you guys aren't as as fond of this story, all these acting choices, but I quite liked Anton Yelchin as Kyle Reese. And rest in peace, Anton Yelchin, he passed away a number of years ago. But I think his portrayal of Kyle Reese was very interesting. There was a lot of
01:32:13
Speaker
Tom Holland about it, which was quite interesting. And you can kind of see his kind of ingenuity in this film, I feel that like would progress and build to what he becomes as he grows up and is then sent back in time. So I wish I assume is another like five to 10 years from this point.
01:32:29
Speaker
So I do think that that was good. Christian Bale is John Connor is okay. I don't think he's bad. I like him, I think more to be honest than I do Nick Stahl, but yeah. And one of my least favorite was Bryce Dallas Howard is Catherine Brewster. I thought she was dreadful. Claire Danes was much better and I would have preferred if they kept her on, but it would have been weird if only she returned.
01:32:50
Speaker
She's not given much to do, I think, is the issue with Bryce Dalles Howard as well. That character is really quite underwritten, to be honest. She's just there, yeah. It feels as if she's just there to be like, oh, look, John's bad at you, too. It's like, OK. Yeah, like, surprise face constantly. Remember Terminator 3? Remember an army got grabbed by the bulls and walked through a wall? And they had to zoom up on his expression. Yeah.
01:33:10
Speaker
Do you know what the worst thing about this is? The fact that we thought that these two films were the worst Terminator franchise could ever be. Because this is a thing I personally thought before I entered the age of the reboots with Genesis and Dark Fate. I genuinely thought that the worst terminators could ever be were Terminator 3 and Salvation. I thought that was the worst that could ever go. Nothing could top that.
01:33:38
Speaker
And unfortunately, we got a fate far darker, pardon upon. And yeah, on that note, Green Chill, thank you so much for joining us in our both our crusade against the podcast bolts and talking about these films again. Yeah, actually, this is the first episode you've been on for season three. So welcome back to season three of Chatsanami. Oh, thank you. It's lovely to be back. I love it. And Mike, is this the first non-cartoon episode I've been on?
01:34:06
Speaker
actually could be. How exciting. Only thrill that was for Terminator 3 and Salvation. Oh, so, so happy. So happy I was chosen for these movies. You're in the big leagues now. Next week we're going to be talking about Doom and Doom and Doom. Nah, that's for another episode. But thank you all so, so much for listening. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, stay hydrated and prepare for the worst.