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How To Set Boundaries With Your Parents With Libby Ward
9.6k Plays3 months ago
This episode was so incredible that it was hard to choose a title. Other possible titles for this episode included:
“How To Heal Your Trauma While Parenting”
“Mothering When You Have A Difficult Relationship With Your Mother.”
“Breaking Cycles Of People Pleasing And Finding Your Authentic Self.”
In this episode of Robot Unicorn, Jess and Scott welcome special guest Libby Ward, founder of Diary of an Honest Mom. Libby opens up about her journey of setting boundaries with her parents, healing from childhood trauma, and finding her authentic self as a mother.
The conversation dives deep into the challenges of cycle-breaking parenting, dealing with family judgment when setting boundaries, and learning to regulate emotions as an adult.
Listeners will gain valuable insights on:
• How to set boundaries with family members, even when it's difficult.
• The importance of accountability and repair in healing relationships.
• Strategies for regulating emotions and breaking generational cycles.
• Finding your authentic self after years of people-pleasing.
This raw, honest discussion offers hope and practical advice for anyone working to heal from past trauma and create a healthier family dynamic. It is a must-listen episode for parents seeking to break cycles and nurture stronger relationships.
Hear more from Libby on Instagram!
Get 10% OFF parenting courses and kids' printable activities at Nurtured First using the code ROBOTUNICORN.
Learn more about The Body Safety Toolkit here!
Credits:
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Overview
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Robot Unicorn. We are so glad that you are here. As always, let's start the show with a question from Scott.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hey, so this is going to be a little bit of a different episode. We think there's no introduction that's really necessary for this one. And we just want to get straight into it. Libby is a dear personal friend of mine. And so this conversation got really deep. We covered so many different topics. We felt like we didn't want to add more to the conversation than is already there because there's already so much important but deep and maybe even triggering content inside of the episode if you've been through abuse yourself and have had to set boundaries.
Meet Libby: The Honest Mom
00:00:48
Speaker
Let me just tell you a little bit about Libby. Libby is, as I mentioned, a dear personal friend of mine. She is the founder of Diary of an Honest Mom. You might recognize her from TikTok or from Instagram at Diary of an Honest Mom, where she talks about all things motherhood related and talks about them. Honestly, Libby is an incredible speaker. She is so thoughtful and shares a lot about her experience today. And I can't wait to share this conversation with you. So let's dive into it. Enjoy.
00:01:23
Speaker
Libby, welcome to our robot unicorn. I'm so excited that you're here today. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. This is my first in-person podcast that I've ever done. And I feel like I want to do them all like this now because it just feels homey and nice to see your face. There's something cozy about it, right? Yeah. When Scott and I were setting up for the podcast, we just had this idea of when we have guests in to take them in, we take you out for lunch after, just doing the whole day together. It just feels a lot more Intimate, is that an okay word to use? It's okay for you to use it. Yeah, it's okay for me to use it. Yeah, maybe not you.
Friendship and Shared Experiences
00:01:56
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's good. And I'm so looking forward to this conversation. And it's so good to see your face. I feel like I'm so lucky that we live within an hour of each other. And it's been really great, like getting to know you. And it's so hard online, because you can see people and think you know who they are. And they're not always the same person in person. And you very much are that. And it's great to be able to have
00:02:18
Speaker
this in-person time together. Yeah, same, same for you. And I know we both had those experiences with other people online where it's like, oh, you think they're one way and then they're not. So it's just, there's something so nice about finding each other in this space. I was thinking about the first time we met in person. You remember this? I think, yes, I do. We went out for dinner with a group. Oh, that was the first time we met. Yeah. I wasn't even thinking that. I was thinking a different first time. I was thinking, you're right. That's actually a year before I was even thinking first time we met was out for dinner with a group. Yeah. And you had just kind of come on the social media scene, right? so Yeah. So I don't think i we knew who each other was. I had no idea who you were. Yeah. I don't know who you were either. Oh, you got along. It was really nice. yeah And then I don't think we really talked much after that. I think I maybe followed you. Yeah. And then a year and a bit, maybe later.
00:03:09
Speaker
because I was just pregnant with our third that day that we went out for dinner. I remember that because I was very nauseous when we were And then when our third daughter was born, I think one of us had reached out to each other. I can't remember. And then we went out for lunch and Hamilton. Yes, we did. That's the time I was thinking about as our first meeting. Yeah, that was a fun time. That was fun. That was a good time. I remember our third daughter was literally an infant child. Like she was tiny. She was probably six, seven weeks old, something like that. And we went out for lunch and it was the first time I think I had actually gotten like formally dressed.
00:03:47
Speaker
since having her. I remember there was a piece of me that was excited. I'm like, oh, this is going to be nice. I'm a real person again. But then driving there, I think she cried the whole way. And I was like, oh no, I'm meeting with this famous influencer. My daughter is screaming and crying and it was summer. It was hot. And I was just like, oh no, like this is not going to go well for me for sure. She's going to be like, who is this? But you were so lovely and kind. We had the nicest discussion and pretty sure my boobs were out because I was breastfeeding. And it was just normal. It was normal. Except the server wasn't normal.
00:04:24
Speaker
I don't remember exactly what it was but I remember leaving being like, that was super awkward. Yeah, I feel like things get weird and I am this mom so I can own that but I'm like the crunchy mom when I had the baby or boobs are just out like these are just there and I feel like when you're at a restaurant and that's happening. I think servers get that it's not normal for other people. Yeah, for me it's just very normal, yeah. It's normal for parents but if the server was not a parent then Yeah, then it gets awkward. And then people make awkward comments about your baby. And it was so hot that day. It was very hot using a cover. But we bonded over several different things. There's something about being a small town girl, like Canadian
00:05:07
Speaker
small town. I feel like I meet so many people in this industry and in the world who are from big cities or they're American or they're in the entertainment industry. And sometimes it's they's just like a different mindset. And so meeting someone who does something similar to what I do online, who's just a regular small town girl mom who like whips her boob out at a restaurant is just very comforting for me. Yeah, i know we felt I know. I can't not be exactly who I am. And I feel like any person I've met online is like, oh, yeah, yeah, you're the exact same. But yeah, it it was so nice. And I feel like that was the first day that our friendship truly started forming. But since then, that was probably two years ago, because I remember it was hot. It was summer. She was just a few weeks old. Yes, it was probably just two years ago. And since then, we've done a ton of things together. Yeah.
00:05:59
Speaker
It's been good. Especially I would say the last six months or so, we we've seen each other a lot. It's been really nice. Yeah, I highly recommend anyone making friends with therapists. It works
Parenting: Breaking Cycles and Emotional Insights
00:06:10
Speaker
so well. It works so well for great conversation. Yeah, yeah. Or marrying one. Or marrying, oh okay guys, too far, too much. I think the thing about being a therapist and a friend that's nice, and this is the same kind of thing that I think I do on Nurtured First, is it just, it opens up conversation. Yeah. Because you know I can handle talking about harder things. Right, yeah.
00:06:31
Speaker
And that's one of the reasons I wanted to bring you on today because I think one of the things that we bonded over was just our ability to have these deep, honest conversations, which is also what your account is all about. And because of that, we were able to talk a lot about different wounds that you've had or different experiences that you've been through. And I was able to share, there's some similarities between yours and Scott's story. So we've been able to kind of talk about that. that a little bit. And yeah, even though I don't have the same experiences as you, I think we've just had some really important conversations and yeah. And there's something about being able to skip all the small talk that I usually cannot stand. It feels like such a waste of time. And when you're a mom and you're trying to make friends and you already have such a limited amount of time to connect with people and you spend the whole time talking about the weather and all these surface level topics, I can find those conversations really draining. yeah And I don't know if it's an ADHD thing. I'm not sure what it is. I just don't love small talk. And so being able to connect with someone who's, let's talk about our trauma. Let's talk about our childhood. Oh, this thing happened with my kid today that reminded me of when I was six and then I cried about it. And then it's just a normal conversation and not something that you need to, I don't know, make into a big thing. It's the only way we know how to talk. And I feel like that's why we bonded. And I think that Scott and I are like that too. yeah We struggle with the small talk.
00:07:50
Speaker
Yeah. So one of the topics that we talk about often, and this isn't just about your story or Scott's story, but it is our communities. So your community is diary of the honest mom, my community on Instagram and everywhere is nurtured first. And our communities have this crossover where a lot of them are cycle breaking parents, right? They're trying to do things their own way. And even I feel like cycle breaking, like that's a big word. I think most parents are doing something a little differently than their parents. That doesn't mean it's an offensive thing to their parents. It just, it's just part of being a parent and taking that on for yourself. but We've even talked about that too. I have that conversation with our oldest daughter right now regularly. How, I mean, You're the parenting expert. And I say that with in air quotes. Yeah, I don't love the parenting expert. But I said to our oldest daughter that at some point she's gonna potentially have kids of her own and she'll probably want to do things differently than how we raised her too. It's just inevitable. No parent is perfect. It's gonna happen.
00:08:46
Speaker
yeah I think for some of us, maybe you can relate to this too. We've been through things that are so very rarely are things black and white, but maybe our experiences as kids were pretty black and white. Like we know we're not going to do this the same way. That's wrong. Yeah, that's wrong. And I think a lot of people have difficulty because they're probably raised with parents who are amazing, but there are still certain things that they yeah might need to do differently or break cycles over. where I've said this to Jess a bunch of times recently that I think I was kind of lucky in that a little bit because I know for a fact that I want to do things differently. And and you can openly speak about that yeah because your childhood included abuse. right So it's pretty easy to say. It's a clear distinction. yeah This is right and this is wrong and we're not going to do this anymore.
00:09:33
Speaker
And I know when I first became a mom, I thought about trauma and about my childhood and about cycle breaking in more black and white terms, because so many of the people I was surrounded by had relatively normal upbringings. You know, they might have had some things I didn't like, but they're relatively normal, whereas my life was so starkly different and my experiences were so abnormal. and the abuse that I experienced was so different that I sort of felt, well, I have trauma, you don't have trauma. I'm a cycle breaker, you're not a cycle breaker. And I've come to realize that literally every parent has things that they could or want to do differently, even if they had loving parents, even if they still have ah
00:10:16
Speaker
relationship with their parents. There's things that we know now that we didn't know back then. There's things that you experience now that you realize, oh my goodness, like that was messed up in my childhood. Like I know for me, there was even certain things that I thought were just a part of my story. Like I had no emotional reaction to it. And then when I became a mom and I looked at my own daughter, I all of a sudden was hit with this wave of why was it so hard to love me in this way? where like I never really thought of it that way before. And so I think in becoming a parent, you find these different things that you want to do differently that maybe you didn't notice before. And it's not always as black and white as traumatized, not traumatized. yeah Cycle breaker, not cycle breaker. like There's things that we want to do differently. Yeah, for sure.
00:10:58
Speaker
You're talking about a moment when you were looking at your daughter, like, I don't want to do that. Was that kind of your first opening to, hey, maybe I don't want to parent in the way I was parented? Or was that something that was already in your mind? You were already thinking about it at that time. I knew before I ever even thought about conceiving that I was going to be a different parent or wanted to be a different type of parent than what I had. But I didn't really have a concept of what that would look like or feel like or the multitude of little moments throughout my whole journey as a parent that would make me realize just how differently I wanted to do it. Or like there's things that hurt before I became a parent, but then when I became a parent, they became so much more obvious. And it gave me more of a drive to be different because it made me realize how much it affected me. Right. Yeah, definitely. Personally, I feel like for myself, of course, you're not lucky to be abused, but like I felt the same way. So knowing how I was raised, I didn't want to do the same thing. You don't really know what it's like to raise kids until you actually have them. So it kind of makes sense to me that you don't understand the full, I don't know, the brevity of the what it takes to be a parent and then from there you start to realize oh yeah okay well it's more difficult than i thought but here's one aspect i want to do things differently and then another couple hours later there's another thing and yeah it brings it all back to the surface right yeah at least for me i felt like it would have been more difficult if i received let's say
00:12:30
Speaker
half of what the abuse I received or like half of the experiences I had because maybe it wouldn't have been enough for me to like actually think, oh, I want to do this completely differently. Right. Well, and I think before I became a parent, I was more objective about it. Yeah. This is wrong. This is right. This shouldn't have happened. I'm not going to do it this way. And then when I became a mom, I was all of a sudden hit with all of the emotions that I never really had access to before. I'd never really allowed myself to feel the pain of not having the love in the way that a child deserves. And it hurt more. Very confusing.
00:13:04
Speaker
Yeah, it is very confusing. And it's almost like, wait a second, like why have I not been able to feel this until now? like Why am I being hit with it now while at the same time having to show up as a parent every day? like I don't have time to grieve this now. like I don't have the energy or the money to go to therapy now. It would have been nice if I maybe started this healing journey a little bit. before and it's not as objective and black and white as it was. Do you think part of that is because like you didn't know how much you could love another being until you actually had your own child? so like I felt that for for me. All of a sudden we have our daughter and I'm like, how is it even possible that someone could have done the things that were done to me to something as innocent as this? yeah And so immediately, yeah I think when I became a parent, I thought it would be this slow, gradual love that I would love, you know, them immediately, but it would be slow and gradual and it wouldn't go from you don't have a child, you do have a child, you would literally die for this person you've never met overnight, and then stopping and going, wait a second, all of those things that happened to me, like why didn't that bother my mom? Why didn't that break her heart? Why was she able to do those things to me and not ever take ownership for it?
00:14:16
Speaker
And then that really hurts knowing how much you can love someone else and wondering why you didn't get that. And for me, I've had moments of self-blame and self-shame of like, okay, well, if I can love my child this way and so easily, what is wrong with me that I couldn't be on the receiving end of that? And it's very confusing. I don't know if I ever felt that way personally, just because, I mean, I know from what I'm told, I was a very difficult child. I'm still highly sensitive to basically everything yeah in life. Yeah, same. So i yeah, you might understand that too. yeah Yeah, you guys have some similarities there too. Yeah. But even with, like I would say, our middle daughter, she and I relate in that way. Maybe it's because I'm that way, I don't blame her for like, yeah, I get annoyed sometimes. And of course, it's gonna say, I don't love using the word, but like it triggers me to feel annoyed or angry when she does certain things. But in the same sense, I can't blame her for feeling that way. That's just kind of the way she is to the world.
00:15:16
Speaker
know And I mean maybe they didn't have the information that we have now but I still don't know that that I necessarily give that as an excuse to them for not having a bit more patience. I'm thinking Scott just about something that you said I just want to clarify it a little bit because you said something about like oh it was easier because I was abused to know that this wasn't okay with that kind of thing but I don't want anyone to think like it was an easy decision for you to set a boundary with your family or yeah for you to go through that. Maybe I should use the term simple. It was simple for me to understand that this was not right. Yeah. It was definitely not easy for me to have put in place the boundaries that I put in place. Like there were exactly. Yeah. It was like six months of me crying nonstop. Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:02
Speaker
as an adult man. Like that's not, especially from where I come from, that's not a normal thing to experience. so yeah Yeah. I know for me, this is going back to earlier in the conversation, but before I became a parent, I thought that some of the worst things that happened to me had to do with growing up in poverty. or moving around a lot or not fitting in with my friends because I didn't have clothes that fit me or going to food banks or living in shelters or more of those surface level things that happen around us or you know to us as kids and it wasn't until I became a parent that I realized that
00:16:37
Speaker
the worst things that happened to me had nothing to do with those service level things and everything to do with emotions and being seen and being safe and knowing I'm loved and being free to be myself or not be myself and the dysregulation of my mom that I had to deal with and how that impacted like how I saw myself. And so it's just really fascinating how we can think we want to do certain things differently and then realize, oh no, the thing I thought that hurt me the most, it wasn't that. It was something different. Yeah. So you say you grew up in poverty. Do you think that was a major contributor to the way that your mom treated you or they kind of go hand in hand? I think that it's yes and no. Okay.
00:17:24
Speaker
right? Like if you're a mom who's living under the poverty line and you don't have access to therapy or you don't have the same level of education as someone else or the ability to understand or process emotional regulation techniques or you're not surrounded by other people who maybe are more regulated, it's so complicated because when you don't have enough money There's all these different layers of your life that are impacted from your social circles to what you have access to, to like the stresses that you have to endure if you can't feed your kids, right? So that's I think why I have such compassion for so many of the women and mothers in my community who feel stressed out and strung out and struggle with rage or dysregulation where it's not as simple as just
00:18:12
Speaker
well, learn how to be different. It's like, well, I can't learn how to be different if I'm working three jobs. I can't really feed my kids. Yes. And I can't just like enact this script that you're giving me when I'm trying to cook dinner and I have four children and I'm a single mother. And so that has given me a level of compassion for my mom that maybe I didn't have before where I've realized that, you know, living under the poverty line and struggling with those surface level things had a direct impact on her ability to regulate along with her own childhood and her own trauma and all of those things, but it's like multi-layered, I would
Teaching Emotional Regulation
00:18:47
Speaker
say. okay Yeah, I think that makes sense. Well, I even think, I mean, we are in in real terms like we have no issues financially. I mean, we don't own a house that helps us, but
00:18:58
Speaker
The privilege helps you be able to regulate easier. Sure, I think it's important to name that. But I even think when we are stressed, our kids feel it. And I feel like the reality is our stress levels are so much lower. Well, maybe they're the same, but they're over things that maybe, that's the wrong word, but like should be less stressful for us. I think what you're trying to say is like, no matter how stressed we are, the basic needs are still being met. Yeah. Like in general are, was it Maslow's hierarchy of needs? Yeah. If your needs aren't being met, then how are you even able to- You can't get to that highest level. Access your ability to regulate. Yeah.
00:19:40
Speaker
That doesn't excuse it necessarily at all. No. And if you're surrounded, this is a big thing that I think about because when I was growing up, I didn't know anyone who had a university education. I didn't have anyone I could talk to about what kind of jobs that I might be able to get one day. There was nobody around us who was like this positive influence as children to model what it looked like to have a healthy conflict or a healthy conversation about a hard thing. And so that would have been the same for my mom, where if you're living in poverty and you're living around people who have a lot of issues and you don't have that model, then where are you supposed to learn those skills? Yeah, I think that makes sense.
00:20:23
Speaker
I think it makes a lot of sense. and And that's so much what we talk about too, right? These early years of parenting, the important thing is teaching our children those skills through our own regulation, because that's how they learn to regulate themselves. But if we, this is where the cycle breaking comes in, if we were never taught how to regulate our emotions, and then you're also being told by people like me, hey, you know, you got to regulate your emotions with your toddler's tantrums. And people come to me like, well, how am I supposed to do that? I don't know how to regulate my emotions yet. Right. And you haven't been taught. And then when you realize, oh, I need to be able to be regulated in order to help my child regulate. I don't know how to do that. I don't have the time or energy to learn how to do that. But I know it's important. And now I feel guilty for not being able to do that. And I logically know in this scenario when my child is losing it that I need to be regulated. But the alarm bells inside of my body don't understand that and like don't know how to calm down. So what am I supposed to do in this moment? Totally. Yeah. and And so then it just adds more pressure and more layers of guilt of, I want to be regulated. I know it's important to be regulated, but how the flip am I supposed to do that when I am going to be late for work if we don't leave and my child is on the floor, rolling around, making me very angry inside. Scott's smiling. He's like, I get this, yeah this whole conversation. I can already, it's like the phantom feeling. I know I can feel what you're talking about already. Just thinking about that with my own kids. For me, I feel like I am on fire. Like I feel like the house is burning down and I am on fire. And if I don't yell, so I've done some healing, but there was a time when I felt like if I don't yell and scare my children and shut this down, the house is going to burn down, proverbially. Like it it feels like a fight or flight, a dangerous situation. I'm so dysregulated and I need whatever is happening to stop so that I feel safe.
00:22:15
Speaker
but then when you are reactive and you do yell or you do do the scary thing, then you're just contributing to them being more dysregulated. And it's so hard to know in the moment, like, I don't need to yell right now, the house is not burning down, but your body isn't listening to you. I mean, I'm on, and maybe you're doing the same thing, but I'm on this journey of trying to grow the connections in my brain again, like flex those. And that's, I think that's going to be a lifelong journey for me. Because it's just, I don't know, from childhood, it's ingrained in you. Your brain is now grown in a certain way that you have to try and read exercise it in order to make it not feel like the
00:22:55
Speaker
It's practice. The world is on fire. yeah It's practice. And I have so many people in my community say to me, well, how do you do it? Like, what's the one thing? They want the one answer. Like, how do I stop myself from yelling? What do I do in the moment? And it's not simple answer. I wish I knew. You know, like it's not a simple answer. Like the first time maybe I plugged my ears and like walked away really angrily. And then I did that a bunch and then I like found a different technique and then I found a different technique and then I practiced that. Then I got to the point where like when I realized I was becoming more dysregulated, I could stop myself from doing it and internally do so a breathing exercise or something like that. And I think that's something that's so hard as a parent because you want the easy answer like, OK, well, if I'm not supposed to do this, what am I supposed to do? And it's not that simple. And it takes a lot of practice for it to become
00:23:47
Speaker
or even feel remotely natural. I think about this picture I used to show clients. So something that's unique, like that is true in Scott and I situation is I had the ultimate privilege, which I truly believe is like the ultimate privilege to grow up with parents who didn't yell. They were calm. I can barely remember times when my parents yelled. And like I speak about that openly because people are always like, Jess, how are you so calm? Well, I was wired to be calm. Like I have that privilege that not a lot of people have. And clients would come to me, this similar situation to Scott and I, right? Where one child's grown grown up in abuse and the other one's grown up in a calm home. And then the calm home one is like, what's your problem? Stop yelling at the kids. Like stop getting so angry. Stop being so dysregulated and they're mad at their partner, right? Because we are coming into it with two completely different experiences.
00:24:33
Speaker
So for me to be more calm, it makes sense for you to be more like needing some time to learn these skills, that makes sense. And the the picture is like these two runners on a racetrack, right? And so parenting, it's the same race. We're doing the same thing. We're both raising the same kids. But on your racetrack, there's all these obstacles in the way, all these different things that you have to jump over. So whether that's like, you know, ah oh, well, i've this piece was abusive or I got yelled at for spilling milk on the table or this happened to me here. So my racetrack is clear. I can just run down it and and be calm. Whereas you're just like dodging obstacles your whole way on your racetrack. Yes. And so we're doing the same thing, yeah but we're running two different races. And I think it's important for parents to say that because I have a lot of parents say, oh, my husband loses his calm all the time or ah I can't be as calm as my husband. It's because we're running two different races. So the strategies I might need that work for me, like I can take a deep breath and be like,
00:25:27
Speaker
Okay, I'm good. You know, but that's not necessarily going to work the same for you. And Libby, what you're describing is what I would call to people as a ladder. We talked a lot at Nurtured First about laddered approaches. It's just, I just like the visualization of a ladder. So you're not going to go from yelling at your kids all the time and Truly, your body does not know that you're safe. No. Your body can't differentiate a lot of the times between your child yelling at you and you being yelled at as a child. Like, your body goes back into that same state, but now you're bigger, you're louder, you are the one and in control, but your body is still protecting that little version of yourself that was yelled at as a kid.
00:26:06
Speaker
So your body literally thinks when your child's screaming at you, I don't want to put my shoes on. I'm unsafe. It goes back to being five years old and unsafe. I got to protect myself. How am I going to protect myself? Let's either fight back, aka you're going to yell at your five-year-old. freeze you're just gonna stand there and have it just be completely stock or flight like you're just gonna I can't deal with this and just walk away. So to get past that we have to create a ladder to approach where you said like maybe the first time you're just like I just want to stop yelling the first time you just have to close your ears and like I can't hear the yelling and that's a step towards not yelling and then you slowly work your way up to the point where you're calm but it's okay to know that you might not get there right away.
The Role of Medication in Managing Anxiety
00:26:46
Speaker
And I think sometimes the awareness that dysregulation impacts our kids so negatively can almost make you more dysregulated because before you're kind of in this understanding of how I'm acting is really really impacting my child and could impact them for the rest of their life. You might not want to yell but you kind of do and you kind of move past it but then when you know how hurtful it is like
00:27:10
Speaker
to their development, then you are all of a sudden like, oh my gosh, I'm not supposed to yell. And you have that like knowledge and that like pressure of like, don't yell, don't yell, don't yell, which is just like another voice and like another thing on the racetrack. Another obstacle. It's another obstacle of like, oh, I know this now, but like, what do I do? And I know there's been times when my husband has been like, oh, you just choose to be calm or just choose to react this way. Like, I don't have access to my choices like you do. and if i like that I don't have access to my choices. Realistically speaking, and I'm open about this too, realistically speaking, it wasn't until recently when I went on anti-anxiety medications that I actually, for the first time in my entire life that I can remember, feel a sense of calm and can actually feel the ability to make those choices. And that's not to say I don't think you were ever a yeller.
00:28:06
Speaker
No, I was not. I don't think I've ever yelled at the kids maybe once, twice. I don't know. Like it's more just like I get angry or I get annoyed. Like dad's grumpy. Yeah. And that would be the joke. Dad's grumpy. Yeah, dad's grumpy. And we can all tell. And yeah, but I think what the anxiety meds helped you with is because of your trauma, because you didn't have the ability to yeah wire your neural pathways at a young age for regulation, you couldn't use the tools. Legitimately, like it felt like my body was constantly on fire. yeah And it was just day and night, every day, for years on end. That's exhausting. Yeah, so now all of a now all of a sudden I can sleep. Well, like a whole bunch of things have been, I'm not going to say fixed, because that is not ever going to be the case. but Have you noticed like a domino effect of, well, now that I'm calm, I can sleep better, and now that I've slept better, I remember to do these other things that are good for me. and
00:28:59
Speaker
It's like yeah a whole bunch of things have now been made better in my life just because of the fact that I've been on this medication and it seems to be working for me. And now i I truly, like I've always known that I was highly anxious, but this has sort of shown me that, yeah, it was because I had grown up with it a lot worse than what I even imagined. Well, and you acclimate to it. So even though you know you're anxious or you know you're feeling a certain way, it becomes normal to you to be in that way, even if you don't like it. Like I think of my hearing. So I've been severely hearing impaired for a decade, but I've just become so used to it.
00:29:36
Speaker
that like even though I get frustrated by it and even though it impacts my life every day, it kind of just is what it is. And then when I got hearing aids a month ago and I heard sounds I'd never heard before, I was like, wow, my hearing was very, very bad. My hearing is very, very bad. No wonder I was exhausted. No wonder I get frustrated with my child who doesn't speak clearly. No wonder when I'm driving, I'm really irritable because I can't hear in the back seat. Like no wonder all these different things. And it wasn't until I could actually hear properly that I realized how badly I couldn't hear before. Yeah, for sure. That's definitely been my experience with these medications too. I think it makes sense. Your your body, like you said, acclimates to the situation you're in.
00:30:19
Speaker
And when it's internal, other people can't see it. yeah And I think that's the piece that maybe our partners who are more calm by nature or wiring, they might see you in a certain scenario when you're out with your kids and think you're a certain level of calm. And it seems like the smallest thing sends you over the edge. But you just generally are at this higher level of irritation that you're masking so that when this tiny little thing happens, they're like, oh, it was you just got interrupted one time. yeah But you're processing your grief about something and you're irritable because of something rubbing on you. And there's like all these different things that you're dealing with internally and you're trying to mask and you're trying to look normal.
00:31:00
Speaker
So then it looks to everybody else like you're flipping your lid over something small, but it actually is like this mountain that you like keep inside of you that no one can see on the outside. When the doctor asked, what level of anxiety do you think out of 10? It's like, I think I've been living at around an eight or nine out of 10 for the past, since the one Christmas program a few years ago or a couple of years ago. I think I've been basically at that point. So like you said, anything little would just irritate me beyond belief.
Setting Boundaries with Family
00:31:28
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like not that you need to talk about the event that happened there, yeah but there was there was a very triggering traumatic event that happened that kind of ended up sending you into this. I would say tend that attending society. Well, I would say I have been had been living at but prior to that. Yeah.
00:31:47
Speaker
And I still think even when I was like my calmest after that, I was still, it wasn't always 10 out of 10, but for six months after that event happened, yeah, it was probably 10 out of 10 for that entire time. Yeah. Not sleeping at all. Not like, yeah, I was messed up, but. Yeah. And I kind of want to touch on that. And it's not just your experience, but also Libby, your experience and kind of bring it to a point of the conversation we wanted to get to, which was boundaries. So I think some of the time, so we can talk about boundaries for people who have been abused, like like both of you have different kind of boundaries with your parents. But some of the times, like it's that internal world that people don't know, right? So you maybe set a boundary with your parents, something happened there where you set a boundary.
00:32:29
Speaker
And other people think they know better than you. They think they know what you need and what your parent needs and all of this kind of stuff. But they don't know that 10 out of 10 or 8 out of 10 anxiety that's been going on in you. They don't know the wounds that you've had for years and years. They don't know how hurt you've been or that you cried for six months. like Nobody knows that. And I think that like you guys are incredible for sharing those stories because that's so many people that I work with as a therapist that are going through that and they have to set a boundary and to this broader community of people, they see you setting a boundary with your mom, for example, and they say, well, how dare you? like How could you ever do that? right But they would never know. Have you had that?
00:33:10
Speaker
Oh, so much. Yeah, like so much. Well, how could you do that? They're your parent. You should love them no matter what. And I just think what a privilege it is for you. to not even be able to conceptualize the pain that a parent can inflict on their child for so long that their child, after trying everything, then decides to build a very large wall and set a boundary, like what a privilege it is for you to not even be able to wrap your head around how much it hurts and how hard it is. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so that's what I was thinking of when you guys were describing that pain, that fire, that feeling inside of your body, like
00:33:51
Speaker
all of these things that you've had to overcome because you've come from abusive homes. So you go through all of that, you have your own child and both of you, your stories are so similar and you're like looking at them and how could anyone love someone this much and do that to them? And then you do everything you can and and you can talk to that too Libby, like you do everything you can to like make that relationship right. And then when finally you have to build a wall and the wall looks different depending on the person, then people say, well, how dare you do that? And it's like, oh, I feel like that is one of the most invalidating things that can be said. Yeah, and like no one knows what you've gone through or what that means for you or how hard it is either.
00:34:32
Speaker
I think there's this misconception that when you set a boundary or you build a wall, you're just doing it willy-nilly. Like, oh, you hurt me. You didn't babysit the kids this week like we're done. When in fact, it's often like years and years of layered pain and hurt and lack of repair and lack of accountability and potentially abuse that have built up to that moment of setting that boundary. And then even when you maybe don't have a relationship with the parent or you have a very boundary relationship it doesn't mean that it's easy. Like it's still painful to not have that and to think about what it could have been or what it could have looked like and knowing that it will never be that way. And so even though it is more peaceful and maybe you're more regulated and maybe it's what's healthier, it doesn't mean that it's cut and dry and easy to do.
00:35:22
Speaker
yeah Yeah, definitely. I would say for me, like, so I have a legal boundary in place now, which I feel like after that officially went through, I had a breath of fresh air and I was like, I can finally breathe. But what it didn't stop is, let's say in our community, hatefulness that was brought against me and like even bringing my daughter to school would I felt like people didn't like me just because of what I had done. Meanwhile, nobody was getting curious about any of what had happened. They all thought, well, we know this. We know your your parent like we know who they are. There's no way they could have done this. They're the nicest person ever. Right. And so then Scott, like not only did you have to set a boundary after years and years of trying to make something work.
00:36:09
Speaker
And even though trying to make something work went against your internal voice telling you that this was not what's best for you, you still did, right? You still tried to make something work. Well, mostly I did it for the kids. Yeah. That's why the boundary ended up happening. Well, yeah. And even trying to make that relationship work was kind of for the kids, but then I saw it became more and more dangerous to do so. For the kids. Yeah. Yeah. And that is kind of pushed me over the edge to actually go through Right. But then you have people be like, how dare you do that? How could you ever do that? yeah like What it makes me think about is all the parents maybe in the middle where maybe, you know, we use the word cut off. Maybe you haven't cut off your parent. Maybe they're not so toxic that that has happened.
00:36:54
Speaker
Or maybe it isn't a situation where there's abuse or danger, but that you're setting a boundary to protect yourself, to keep your kids safe, to protect like your emotional health. And there's this domino effect on everybody else in your life where they don't understand. So maybe your relationship and your boundary with your parent is to do with a Christmas get togethers or get togethers in general. and you don't want to go if it's going to be at their house because XYZ happens and you set the boundary that you are not going to go to their house for this social occasion. Not only do you have to deal with how that impacts your relationship with that parent, but then you maybe have to deal with your siblings or aunts and uncles or the other people that are potentially involved. Or maybe it's a a different kind of boundary where it's maybe not as extreme. Maybe it has to do with, well,
00:37:48
Speaker
we have a relationship with my parent, but they can't babysit. And then you have to deal with the judgments of people like, how dare you not give your parent the ability to babysit or spend one-on-one time with your child. And it just adds that extra layer. It just puts another thing on your racetrack to have to deal with of like, I not only have to do this hard thing, I've not only been through all these hard things, I not only have to deal with the reaction of the person I'm setting the boundary with, but now I have to deal with the judgment of everybody else. And for me, for a long time, I let the judgments of other people determine what I did. And because they maybe saw it as wrong, it felt wrong. And I had to realize that just because other people don't agree with it, it doesn't mean that it's wrong. It just means they don't understand and they'll never understand.
00:38:37
Speaker
Right, and and at a deeper like a deeper level, you probably were taught at an early age, right? You got to fix your emotions to keep the others around you happy, right? That's part of the experience of growing up in the way that you both grew up, right? So you better fix the way that you feel to keep the peace, to make sure no one's ever mad at you, to make sure no one knows what happened in our home. That's a secret, you know, all of those things. No matter what the level of boundary is that you're setting when someone starts to set a boundary and be the first person in the family to do something different like that actually Unsettles the entire family dynamic that's now been going on and now you're the black sheep in the family It's a whole ecosystem like you think of like in nature. It's like an ecosystem and something changes that changes everything Yeah, and then rather than the toxic person getting the blame
00:39:23
Speaker
You can often get the blame. Well, doesn't that make sense though? I mean, humans are innately tribal. That's how we... There's so many of us on earth because we are tribal. So as soon as you do something that kind of disrupts your family unit, your tribe... the dynamic the Yeah, the dynamic of your family. yeah Then you're kind of, you're making it less safe for everyone. almost feels like the opposite is true at the same time where I know for me, it took me a very long time to actually set boundaries and keep boundaries. I would try, I would say I was trying, I would say something that I'd
00:39:58
Speaker
you know, I would give in or whatever. And I think part of the reason it was so hard for me to set boundaries with my mom and then even with people in my life in general and to show up as my true self, it was so hard to do that because of the fear of losing the tribe. Because of the fear of if I am fully and authentically myself and I say what I mean and what I feel and what I need, I am risking breaking my tribe apart losing relationships that keep me safe. And so it is an act of survival to not set those boundaries sometimes. Like for me, it took so long to do that because I was so afraid of losing what was safe and what I knew. And it's scary to do that. There can be safety and chaos because you're it's what youre normal for you.
00:40:43
Speaker
yeah And if you set a boundary with someone and that fractures that relationship, you have to be okay with it potentially fracturing other relationships. And I mean, I've shared with Jess privately that I have felt my word for the last couple of years has been untethered because I know who I am and I like who I am more than I ever have in my life. I feel like the most authentic version of myself. And at the same time, It has changed so many of my relationships, how I relate to my community, where I fit in, to where I feel like I don't quite fully know who my people are anymore or where as a safe group for me to belong.
00:41:27
Speaker
because I know exactly who I am, but I've spent a whole lifetime building relationships with people who thought they knew who I was yeah because I was masking and pretending to be who I thought they needed me to be. And it really like messes with you. like It legitimately does change the ecosystem and that's a whole other hard thing. yeah Do you think there's any like the difference I guess between the two of us you being a woman me being a man like is there a difference there even in how like your friend groups accept or don't accept certain things like I feel like maybe it's also my friends have been mostly pretty open about things some family members maybe not but in general
00:42:04
Speaker
The negative impacts for me have been less about boundaries that I've set with my mom, with parents, for example, and more about me deciding to be less of a people pleaser. Yeah. My my belief system and my perspective on the entire world has shifted and my perspective on myself has shifted and my self worth has grown. And I think one difference for men and women is like women are generally more expected to be people pleasers and be servers. That's definitely not an expectation for me. No. Right. Like there is that more of an expectation for women to just like go with the flow, be small, be quiet, do what other people want you to do, serve them. And when all of a sudden you've spent a lifetime doing that and all of a sudden you don't anymore, even not in relation to a parent, people are like, well, who
00:42:50
Speaker
Who are you? Who is this? yeah Oh, you're, you're abrasive now. Oh, like, why are you maybe angry? Or why do you have these opinions? You've never shared these opinions before. And like, people can't maybe handle that change. Right. You know? And that be might might be more difficult for you than it is for me, right? Because I think for myself, it might just be a little more normal, me being a guy, I can kind of get away with not being a people pleaser. And I've never really been one in general for my whole life. But my take on on how trauma manifested in both of you. Like your experiences are similar, but I think it manifests in different ways. Like I think for you, Libby, it manifested in like you didn't have the love that you needed. So then you were seeking that love out by people pleasing and being like, I just want to.
00:43:33
Speaker
feel worthy of acceptance. I see where you're going, yeah. Right? Yeah. So you're like, I just want to feel worthy of acceptance by everyone. So I'm going to actually mask and not even get to the point where you could be curious until the last few years about like, who am I actually? Because, and I only say this because we're friends and we've actually had these conversations off camera. Otherwise I wouldn't say this to Libby, but you know You're like, you just are coming to the point where you're feeling comfortable with who you truly are. So to be accepted and to be loved, you've masked yourself to fit in with people to be accepted, but that's not like true acceptance because you're not actually being yourself. Scott, for you, I think how the trauma that manifested is I can't trust anyone.
00:44:14
Speaker
Right, so instead of being a people pleaser being like I want people to love and accept me you're just like I won't let anyone in. Right and I have to be self-sufficient because no one else is looking out for me anyway so I need to look out for myself. So I think even entering into a friendship or relationship with anyone like you're never trying to please them because you're kind of like well take it or leave it because I don't trust you anyway and you're probably gonna leave me anyway
Truth, Vulnerability, and Trust in Friendships
00:44:35
Speaker
so you know. all My friends who are listening that's not as true anymore. There's been healing done, there's been healing done, but I'm saying it historically until that first day, and we talked about this on another episode, when I still remember it, we just had the baby, and you were looking at her, how much I love her, I can't believe this, like how could anyone hurt me like when you should love someone like this, right? And you were broken, and we were going through a bunch of real things at the time too, and it was really, really hard.
00:45:05
Speaker
and you decided then like I have to tell someone how I feel. yeah And you went out for coffee with your friend Dan, we went to therapy together. And I think then it's not like you trusted everyone all of a sudden, like it's still the work in progress, but you started to share your truest version of yourself with your friends. And I think only then, only when you actually started sharing the truth and that was the first time in your life. Like not until you became a dad that you actually told anyone outside of me what happened in your home. Then I think you started to make real friendships. So for your friends that are listening, these friendships are real and trusting because you've actually told, like you've bared your heart and soul to many of our friends.
00:45:45
Speaker
Yeah, because I think previous to that point, I would have shared maybe little bits of information and be like, oh, that's not possible. That would be the response I would would get. is No, there's no way. This person is too nice. Like, I can't believe that that would happen. Yeah, so then you're just like, well, I can't trust you. Don't be scared of the way, so why would I say anything? Yeah, why would I say anything? No one believes me, so I'm not going to say anything. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But the first person who actually listened to you and believed you I think showed you Oh someone outside of Jess might actually believe me and since then I actually think like for a dude for me like for anyone You have a lot of deep friendships. Like you actually do. You have a lot of amazing friends. And I think it's because you start the conversation off by being vulnerable with them. Like you're actually really open and honest about your experience. And then that allows vulnerability to exist within the friendship, which is needed inside a real friendship.
00:46:39
Speaker
That's an aside, but I feel kind of back to what you said. Like, you're right. It makes sense that the last few years have been harder with your friendships because now you're like, oh, no, I'm being my true self yeah and you can take or leave it. And then that's really hard. Yeah. And I have spent so long trying to belong somewhere and trying to earn my belonging, whether through people pleasing or serving or giving or making people laugh or whatever it is that I didn't even belong to myself. Like I spent so much energy trying to belong in all these places and then looked in the mirror and was like, I don't even know who I am. Like, I don't know if I belong to myself. And so it was really freeing to finally figure out who I am and to love who I am and to feel confident in who I am. And almost surprising for me to see how much it changed dynamics.
00:47:30
Speaker
And I mean, there is the layer of that was happening while I was exploding on social media and all of a sudden going from having a private life to a public life. There's a whole dynamic there. I'm not just like sharing my opinions and my thoughts and my perspective on the world in one on one conversations. I'm like. ranting to millions of people on the internet yeah so that you know can change ah dynamics as well. Do you think that that part played a role in you figuring yourself out like being on social media or do you think that was kind of a private thing happening outside of social media? it was happening simultaneously I would say. Like before I went on social media, I mean obviously I've known what social media was, before I posted anything publicly on social media I was already doing my own work and I had been spending a few years questioning things and digging into things and reading books and I had gone back to university as an adult with small children and so for the first time I was learning these sociological terms for things that I was dealing with and things that were happening in the world
00:48:28
Speaker
and things that I had always felt in my core were the way that the world worked. Like I was learning that all these gut feelings that I had pushed aside. So we weren't going to talk about this, but like to the role of the church and how I latched on to so many beliefs without stopping to question anything. And like I'm still a believer, but I for so long didn't question anything because I just wanted to belong somewhere. And then when I started questioning things and I started thinking for myself, it felt really icky. And then when I went back to school and I started learning about the world and my perspective started changing and I started integrating my beliefs with what all the research said, that was really beginning to shift how I saw the world.
00:49:15
Speaker
And in particular, how mothers are treated by society and how the systems are oppressive and how women's health and mental health aren't taken as seriously and how the mental load and the invisible load impacts women's mental health and wellbeing, it all started to make sense. Like, I'm not broken and messed up. I don't need to just shove all this stuff inside and be a martyr and serve everyone because that's what I'm supposed to do. All this stuff feels really heavy because it is really heavy and it's kind of a phenomenon that's happening everywhere. And then I logged on to TikTok and started making videos and rather than just learning about things in university and being like, yeah, that makes sense. I then had hundreds of thousands of people being like, oh yeah, that's my experience too. Oh yeah, that's happening to me.
00:49:58
Speaker
And so then it did happen simultaneously. It was this like, oh wow, I feel myself changing. and I feel my perspective changing. And now I have all this like primary data from all these thousands of women being like, yes, I feel quite broken. And so not only did I realize I'm not alone, I'm not crazy, but like this is a really big issue. And then it all happened simultaneously.
Social Media and Community Support
00:50:21
Speaker
That's a long answer. And I went on a lot of tangents. I'm sorry.
00:50:27
Speaker
it was good I think it was great. I think it's a it is true. It's all the things, right? I think your answer makes so much sense. It's something we've talked about so much, right? Like you sometimes until something comes up that makes you question the way things are being done, you just live it and you're just like I guess this is what I'm supposed to do and who I'm supposed to be and what it's actually like to be a parent and but then sometimes you start to question and then if you have the social like other people are saying no I feel the same way that's so validating like I think that's where social media can be really healing because in your community there's so many moms or like Libby I haven't ever heard someone else name this. I haven't ever heard someone else talk about this. And for me getting the words to describe yeah what I was feeling was so empowering. So I love being able to do that for other people, but it's not siloed. You know, there's so many times we talk about just mental health or just cycle breaking or society or poverty or all these different things. but
00:51:25
Speaker
this conversation is, I feel like proof that it's never just one thing, right? Like our social circles impact how we relate to our parents and how we see ourselves and how we're in in relationship with each other and parenting. And it's all like, Life is all interconnected. A messed up web with racetracks overlapping. It is. I wanted to bring back to two points. So first I just had wanted to say this earlier, but I think something that really helped me when you were going through your journey of, uh, sending boundaries and stuff like that.
00:52:00
Speaker
is like no child ever wants to have to set a boundary with their parent. That means that they're not in their life or that means that they're not in their life very often, right? Like every child, even if you're an adult, you're still a child of of your parent, wants to, in their deepest core, be in good relationship with their parent. Yeah, definitely. So if someone is setting that boundary, like just for anyone listening who's like, oh, I can't understand ever setting a boundary with my parent, like, hey, that's such a privilege. and And I can understand that because I have a good relationship with my parents. And just know that if if someone in your life is setting that boundary, whether, you know, it's like you Libby where there's a wall and and sometimes there's still communication, or it's like you Scott and it's legal, like no child
00:52:40
Speaker
seeks to do that for no reason. So if someone in your life is doing that, maybe know that they've been through so many hard things to get to that point and be curious with them instead. And know that if you come across as judgmental and they end up kind of also putting up a boundary with you, it's because you're not being a safe person to them, if that's how you come across. So that's one of the first things that I wanted to say. I just thought that was really important to name. The second thing, I kind of wanted to bring it back to boundaries and both of you have your experiences and then maybe we can talk a little bit about the person who's setting a boundary with an in-law or a parent that's not quite so extreme. But is there any suggestions or recommendations you'd have for a person who's in either of your shoes and has to set a boundary for the first time and has never done it before, knows that this is important, but is worried about judgment? like What would you say to that person if they were here? I would say that you're responsible for setting the boundary. You're not responsible for their reaction. For so long, I avoided setting boundaries because I was too afraid of what the reaction was and I felt responsible for that. And that's not your responsibility. And just because they react poorly, it doesn't mean that you've done something wrong.
00:53:51
Speaker
I would say the biggest thing that got me through all of it was focusing on the fact that I'm doing this to protect my children from an unsafe person. And I think that's the only way I was able to get through yeah that whole process. Because it was very difficult and I probably would not have done it otherwise. But it was specifically I had my children in mind and my main focus and that's the only thing that I think that got me through was knowing that at the end of this there's a protection set in place and they don't have to deal with anything that I had to deal with. I remember when we were going through that journey and I mean there was times when we had so much stress on our place because we didn't have the boundaries in place and our stress would impact our children because of the lack of boundaries and all of a sudden our children would be more dysregulated, there would be things going on with them and I remember like in those moments that's when you have the biggest struggle, right? Because you're like, wait, it is still impacting my kids. Yeah.
00:54:46
Speaker
Oh, we could definitely see it like they obviously they're going to see that their father who is not really emotional at all was all of a sudden crying constantly every day. Like that has a major impact on them too. Yeah. I know in my experience, it got harder before it got easier. So my question to you is, did it get easier after it got harder? Yeah, definitely. Right. I wouldn't say it was, again, like after the document was set in place, it was easier in that I felt like, okay, there is a legal consequence for this person to show up at any location we are known to be at. So there's a consequence to that. And to me, it seemed very unlikely that they would risk accepting that consequence. So it definitely, I will say it was infinitely easier than what it was. It was still not easy. right right I think I just for me for so long I didn't set boundaries because I felt unsafe in my body when they reacted poorly and I wanted to avoid that feeling and so I avoided it for so long and so long and I'm so grateful now that I've was able to push through like the icky feeling of I've disappointed them, they're unhappy, it's going to affect them in all these ways. Like I was able to push through that to now, obviously I have moments and days where I'm really sad and griefy and and it's hard, but I'm really grateful that I pushed through that really, really uncomfortable, painful first few days, few months of like this feels like
00:56:13
Speaker
my entire world is imploding and I want to give up on the boundary so I can stop feeling this way. And so I just would want to encourage anyone who's listening that if you are setting a boundary, you're setting it for a reason. And the really, really hard parts that come right afterwards, they will eventually dissipate because I am like as an ADHD person. When I have a feeling, it feels like it's literally going to last forever. Like I can't even imagine it not feeling that way. And so I would just want to say to anyone, like if you feel like deep, deep discomfort with the boundary, like push through it because there's peace on the other side. I would agree with that.
00:56:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's so true. One of the visualizations that I would teach to my clients would be when we're setting a boundary, whether it's a big boundary, like a legal boundary or a wall, like you described Libby, or a little boundary like, Hey, you know what? We're not going to be able to come for Christmas this year because we're prioritizing staying home with our family. We don't want to do the travel. Like there's little boundaries too. And those sometimes feel very hard to say as well because you know on the other end of that little boundary is disappointment from your parent and that brings us back to like again that fundamental need of all children no matter how old you are want to be in right relationship with your parent and you are not wrong or bad for having that feeling
00:57:30
Speaker
And sometimes we need to sit in the discomfort of that feeling that my parents not okay with me right now and I'm still okay. I'm going to be safe. So what I would imagine clients doing, and and maybe this sounds woo woo to some people would be literally picture. So if there's an emotion coming back from your parent, right? So you say, you know what, mom, I'm sorry, we can't make it home this year for Christmas. It's too much travel. It's too much on the kids. We just want to be here with our family. You can feel free to come visit us if if that works for you. But we're not gonna make the travel down this year and your mom comes back like how dare you every year? We all come every single Christmas. Everyone's here You just imagine those words coming and almost putting up like a shield, right? Like almost imagine a shield coming and being like I'm gonna protect myself from this Those are her words her emotions. I'm gonna hand them back to her And so I would have clients literally imagine like giving that emotion back to that person. That's not yours to take on, right? That's their feeling. And so many of us from an early age have been trained to take on everybody's feelings so that we can people please. And you know, that comes from many different reasons, but trying to visualize giving it back and then at the same time looking at your own family and deciding what outcome do I want from my kids?
00:58:39
Speaker
And so whether that's an outcome like, I don't want my kids to be in this trauma abuse where I have a toxic parent who's you know being awful to me and now I'm stressed every single day in my home and I can't parent my kids. Or if it's something as simple as like, I want my kids to have the opportunity to rest and to play and I can't do a busy weekend every single weekend. like It's too much. I can't visit my in-laws every single weekend. And I know my mother-in-law is going to be disappointed in that, but my job is to give my kids opportunity to play. And and when they go to their house, they just tell them me they have to sit in the basement all day, and and I have to talk with the other adults, and I don't want to do that on a weekend. So even those little boundaries, like imagining, well, that's OK. My mother-in-law is allowed to be upset with me, and I'm allowed to make the choice that's right for my family. So that's what I would say to parents who maybe don't have quite the same experiences, but still need to set those boundaries.
00:59:31
Speaker
If you're setting a boundary, let's say it's about going to their house. It's about a hug, right? Like you can't force my kids to hug you. yeah It's about, don't force them to sit at the table and finish everybody. Yeah. Finishing the food at the table, right? Like those little things, the reason why your parent or your in-law is so triggered is that that is what they've probably done, what they think is right. So you challenging them feels like a personal attack against them. I do believe we can set boundaries with love, with respect for the other person. like I even love the way both of you talk about your parents. You're not bashing them in any way, shape, or form in this this episode, right? like There can be a respect, a care for them, I want what's best for them, and my job is to protect my kids. So whether that's, I'm not gonna let you force my child to eat every bite of food, and it's okay if you're upset with that. They're my child, like this is my choice.
01:00:25
Speaker
So I just want to empower parents that they can make decisions to advocate for their
Repairing Relationships through Accountability
01:00:29
Speaker
kids. And when your kids see that, they learn to advocate for themselves too. And that's going to protect them from all this people pleasing that we've been talking about ah throughout this episode. And you don't have to explain your boundary. I, for years, felt like I had to justify and explain my boundary to the person I was setting it with, to everybody else. And sometimes, depending on your relationship, you can set a boundary and tell them why. But you learn pretty quickly who the people are that don't need an explanation. And sometimes you can just say, in our house, we don't force our kids to finish their plate, so we're not going to do that here. You don't need to give them all the research and send them 14 Instagram posts and make them read books or tell them why. You can just say, that's the boundary and not explain it. Even if it feels deeply uncomfortable to not over explain it.
01:01:15
Speaker
Like to say, yeah, you know what, we leave family things at 6.30, that way my kids can get to bed by 7.30. You don't need to overexplain that, like I say. And here's all the research on why a 7.30 PM bedtime is best for kids. Like, no, you're just allowed to make that choice. You're the parent, you're in charge. When you were talking about setting a boundary with your mom and saying, we're not going to come to Christmas and the mom getting really upset about it, it made me think about a mother and a child and how it's the exact same thing. How, you know, if you're setting a boundary with your mom and your mom loses her mind, she's doing that in an attempt to get you maybe to change your mind.
01:01:53
Speaker
I think about like being at the front door and trying to get the kids out the door for school and they're having big emotions. We so easily, well like some of us, want to immediately react and like get angry or scare them or like do the big thing that is going to make them do what we want them to do. And stopping yourself and realizing that just because that's something you want to do and just because it might be a shortcut to getting what you want, doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do and actually that's what fractures the relationship. Because when you set a boundary with your mom about Christmas and she yells at you, that fractures the relationship. Just like when we scream at our children,
01:02:35
Speaker
even if they do what we want them to do it so fractures the relationship and that's for me what I realized is the most important of all of it is the relationship not the getting people to do what you want them to do just because it feels unsafe or like an attack or Yeah, because imagine like along that note, imagine you call your mom, you live three hours away, right? You know what, we just can't come home for Christmas this year because it's just too much, the kids are too little, it's not gonna work. And instead of yelling, the mom goes, oh, okay, like help me understand what's not working. And then the kid goes, well, you know, it's just a lot with their nap schedules and all that kind of stuff. And the mom says, you know what, I totally understand that Christmas is really busy. Why don't we come up a different weekend, we'll do something special together. And the child goes, oh, that sounds great.
01:03:21
Speaker
like that response now we're we're bringing in closeness and the next time that adult child is going to feel like I can tell my mom how I feel and we can have a discussion about it and we can still be in the right relationship and it's the same thing with the shoes or whatever we're yelling at our kids about right it's like Hey, like I want you to put on your shoes. No, I'm not gonna put on my shoes. It's happened this morning. It literally happened this morning too. No, I'm not gonna put on my shoes. And your instinct is to yell, right? Control. Inside you go, oh, help me understand. like What is it about your shoes that you don't like? Well, I don't have socks on.
01:03:54
Speaker
Oh, OK, well, maybe we could get socks together. Do you want my help with that? Yeah, I do. Go get the socks. OK, let's find a pair of shoes that's comfy. And now we've worked together in a strong relationship, right? Or the other one this morning. Had to get the the dish brush out and clean off the bottom of her inside shoes because they were too dirty. in her shoes Oh, yeah. I have one like that as well. yeah I've had moments where I had the time and capacity and regulating ability to stop and and do that. I have it's so much more now. And there's been a few moments where I've stopped and my kid has explained, you know, why something is so hard for them. And I've seen the logic in it. And I've seen the like, Oh, well, no wonder they're feeling this way. And almost immediately been hit with waves of like sadness and grief over all the times that I wasn't. Yeah.
01:04:43
Speaker
able to do that or all the times I was like, no, we just need to go or whatever, whatever it was. And thinking about how that, you know, may have made them feel. And it's just like simultaneous, like, I'm so proud that I'm able to do this now. And that must have been really hard for them. You know, I think there's something beautiful and that there's always time for repair. So even if there's damage that's been done, and i I say this if there is a parent listening who has a complicated relationship with their adult child, even then, there is still time for repair. You can still come in with curiosity. You can still come in with, hey, I see that this is hard for you and you're not coming here or I notice that you're setting some boundaries here, like help me understand, like why why are you setting these boundaries? What's going on?
01:05:27
Speaker
There's always time for help me understand. I'm sorry. I want to help you. Like there's always time for that. Whether that's with our children who maybe we've yelled at for a lot more times than we wish to have done that or if you're an at adult and you have an adult child who is struggling in relationship with you. That's the hope of it, right? It's the accountability at whether you're an adult with an adult parent or whether you're a parent with a 10 year old who you've spent 10 years parenting a certain way. There's something that is incredibly healing about accountability and repair and like how much that can heal.
01:06:04
Speaker
relationships. Yeah. And sometimes parents will say like, Jess, how do I know that I'm not going to mess it up in the same way my parents did with me, right? My parents never repaired and I'm now I yell at my kids and how am I going to make sure I don't mess my kids up for life? And so that I can say like, well, what would it have meant for you if your parents ask that same question, right? Like it is so powerful that people are even asking the question of like, how can I repair? How can I make this better? Because like for so many people, you didn't have a parent who paused and reflected and said, Oh, maybe I messed up.
Sharing Stories and Impact
01:06:39
Speaker
Like, how can I do it better?
01:06:41
Speaker
So I would leave people on that note. Like if you're worried that you've repaired, ah like that you've ruined a relationship, whether that's with your own child or an adult child, like ask yourself, like, what would it mean for a parent to be curious and reflect and wonder how they can repair the relationship? I think that's really a beautiful note to end on. Well, thank you, Libby. Thank you. Thanks for being here.
01:07:10
Speaker
Let's head over to coffee time where Scott and I share some of our reflections from this amazing conversation.
01:07:20
Speaker
So Scott, that was a big episode with Libby. I feel like we covered a lot of different topics. We talked about boundaries. We talked about your own relationship with your parents and your triggers and trying to stop yelling and healing and all sorts of different things. But what I'm wondering is, how are you feeling? Just this episode, but just in general, you're on a podcast now and you're sharing your story and anyone can listen to it. How does that feel? I don't know. I feel like I've gotten to the point where I've dealt with it. So I feel pretty pragmatic about it. Like it is what it is. It is what it is. You don't feel any sort of way. Like is it, I know, I know you're not going to like this. Does it feel empowering to share your story? Do you get nervous or is it just is what it is? Like it's just fine.
01:08:13
Speaker
Honestly, that like truly the way I feel is just it is what it is. It's not like it's empowering or I feel as though some of my story that I shared today was it could be helpful for people. So I feel like it's valuable to share the information, but I don't know that it's like I feel so empowered after doing it. It's just yeah. I feel like that's how I am in general. Yeah, I was going to say, I feel like that's what you're like about most things. But one of the pieces that was interesting to me as we were saying in the episode today, we were talking about how you didn't share your story with anybody until after we had our child, like basically not one person in your life knew. And now you're sharing the same story with the entire world. So that's why I was wondering like, Oh, it's so interesting. And let's say eight years, how much has changed? Yeah. I feel like that's life though. I don't know.
01:09:01
Speaker
I think I've gotten to the point where I've told so many people personally already and like significantly more details to other people yeah that this seems kind of like it's whatever it's what I have to do. Like it's not like I feel anxious about saying any of this or that I feel like I shouldn't be talking about it. I mean, it's my story. There's a lot more detail to it than we're even sharing. For the record, do I ever force you to share your story? No, he don't force me to do anything. I got that feedback from someone. what Making Scott share his story. I don't make that man do anything yeah that he doesn't want to do.
01:09:41
Speaker
That'll be in another episode. We'll talk about the way we, we talk to each other and debate. and Yeah, exactly. yeah Yeah. I don't make, I don't make you share your story. Cause I'm like, Oh, I need content to share about. And I want to be, beautiful thing yeah, sometimes okay I get negative comments on everything, but yeah, sometimes people will be like, Oh, you're just getting Scott to share his story because you haven't been through that. I'm like, yeah, but the reason I want Scott to share his story is because I've watched you go through it and I've seen how painful it was for you. And I know how it would feel if you had anyone in your life at the time being like, Hey, I went through something similar.
01:10:19
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I feel like it's more me wanting to share it than you, necessarily. Like, you're not trying to convince me that I have to share any of this. It's mostly just I am sort of putting myself out there more than I normally would. Because I think it is helpful for people to know that this is my story and it could be similar. There could be similarities in other people's stories who listen to this podcast or follow you on social media. And I think there's power in that and that you could change even changing one person's trajectory in life just because they heard my story is a worthwhile endeavor. Like, it's worthwhile for us to get this out there. I feel like we've said that since day one of starting our Mama Village. Like, if the work that we're doing makes one child grow up in a safe and loving home, then it's worth it. Yep. And I'm very sure we wrote that out the day that we launched the parenting little kids course the first time. I was like, if this course only helps one person, one child, then it's worth it. And I still feel that way.
01:11:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think I saw that recently. I was organizing my notes and I saw that in there. Yeah. Anyway, so I just wanted to touch on that because I know sometimes people are like, oh, he shares a lot about his life and a lot about his childhood. Like, is he actually comfortable with sharing this? And how does it feel for him to share this? And I think, yeah, the answer is yes. I mean, I wouldn't share it if I didn't feel like I was comfortable with it. And there's still stuff that I'm not going to share maybe ever just because I don't think people are prepared to hear it. but Yeah, exactly. And I think it sounds like you're sharing so much, which you are, but there's so many pieces that you haven't shared yeah of the pain and the hurt and all that kind of stuff. The reason I feel like it is what it is is because the details that I'm sharing are sort of surface level in terms of the abuse that I... Yeah, you're not going into deep detail. I'm not explaining every situation. Maybe in like 50 years, if you write a book, then you can share that in there. but Yeah, right. Maybe if I ever write write a book, but... Yeah, exactly. Well, anyway, thank you. I honestly, to you and to Libby, if you're listening to this, Libby, I thought this conversation was one of the best ones we've ever had. You and her are both so open and honest, and I feel like I get along with Libby because she's very similar to you in so many ways.
01:12:28
Speaker
Honestly, I could see how we, the two of us were late and it was kind of fun to, fun. Maybe that's not the right word, but like interesting to have that conversation with her and be able to, again, we have some similarities in our stories. so Yeah. And I love when we have friends on the podcast because it just feels so natural and easy and the conversation with her was, was good. What's funny is you say a friend. I had met her once before, very briefly. Oh yeah, but you guys were like instant friends. I feel like you got along so well.
Listener Engagement and Feedback
01:12:53
Speaker
yeah Anyway, thank you all for listening. I know this episode had a lot in it and I'd really love to hear from you. So if there's anything that stood out to you about this episode, just send me a DM on nurtured first, or you can send us an email.
01:13:07
Speaker
We'd love to hear what stood out. If you want to have Libby back on, I bet you I could get her on for another episode. I'm pretty sure we could. Let us know what you'd want us to talk about more in depth the next time. And that's it from us. I hope you really found this episode valuable. All right. well Thanks. soon We'll talk again soon. Bye.
01:13:29
Speaker
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode. We are glad that you are here. If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and a review. Scott and I actually sit down together and read them all. A five star rating helps us share our podcast and get these important messages out there. Thank you so much for listening and we can't wait to talk to you again next time.