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The Confusion of CoDependency | #44
54 Plays3 years ago
Have you ever felt like there was a wet blanket over your mind or your heart, making it difficult to think or feel good? One reason this may be happening is because of Codependency. We experience codependency in many ways; maybe with where we live, our careers, the climate of our lives in general, but in this episode, Josh and Seth discuss Codependency within relationships. Since they can be the most difficult to navigate, overcoming Codependency in relationships could ultimately help us to overcome it in other areas of our lives as well.
In this episode you'll learn:
- How to identify Codependency in our relationships
- What to do when the confusion sets in and it’s hard to see straight
- What it looks like when we enable boundary violations
- How FEAR drives us to be codependent
- Tools and Strategies to remove confusion from codependency
“You’re using your need for Connection as a facade to justify violating her boundaries” - Josh
“I spent years in my marriage trying to conform to what she wanted me to be without knowing how to voice my needs in the relationship” - Seth
Links
Host Name: Josh Cearbaugh
https://www.instagram.com/jcearbaugh/
https://facebook.com/joshcearbaugh
https://www.jumpstartyourlife.com
LinksHost Name: Seth Conner
https://www.instagram.com/sethaconner/
https://www.facebook.com/iSethConner/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethaconner/
Companies, Products & Places Mentioned
Mushroom Doctor (psilocybin micro-dosing)
www.MushroomDoctor.co/shop
John Hopkins University (Depression/Smoking Cessation/Etc) (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/research/psychedelics-research.html)
Resources Mentioned
The Power of TED (The Empowerment Dynamic) (https://www.amazon.com/POWER-TED-EMPOWERMENT-DYNAMIC-Anniversary/dp/0996871802)
Default Mode Network (https://psychedelicstoday.com/2020/02/04/psychedelics-and-the-default-mode-network/)
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Codependency
00:00:00
Speaker
Have you ever had what i would describe as a wet blanket over your mind or your heart and you're just not really sure what the hell is going on internally.
00:00:10
Speaker
Well, one reason why you could be experiencing that is because of codependency. And that's what we're diving into today is how when you get stuck in codependent loops in any relationship, doesn't matter if it's husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, fiance, lover, friend, business partner, you name it. If you get stuck into codependent aspects,
00:00:33
Speaker
it can muddy the waters as far as your own power and your own authority. So today we dive into how the confusion of codependency can cause problems and havoc in your life, but then also how to identify it and navigate through it to reconnect to clarity.
Subscribe for More Insights
00:00:52
Speaker
If you haven't already, I highly, highly recommend that you subscribe to the podcast because we've got some good episodes coming up.
00:00:59
Speaker
And without further ado, let's dive into how codependency creates an emotional confusion that is quite frankly frustrating.
Exploring Masculinity
00:01:09
Speaker
Men, we are not simple chest thumping, rock smashing, fire starting barbarians.
00:01:15
Speaker
We have depth. We intensely feel. We are scared yet brave. We love to have fun. We're imperfect and make mistakes. We're compassionate and loving. We are multifaceted. Let's explore the reality of masculinity together.
Defining Codependency
00:01:38
Speaker
Today, we get to talk about something that is
00:01:43
Speaker
I was about to say fun, but it's not fun at all. I think it's fun to talk about. It's less fun to get caught up in, for sure, because of, well, the title itself, right? The confusion that it causes. And that is co-dependency. Bam. I think it's important that we start with our definitions of what co-dependency is.
00:02:12
Speaker
Just so that we have a framework to work from, and if you're listening, then you kind of understand the lens that we're coming from, because I think that dictates a lot of people's opinions on the topic in and of itself. And we're not, just so that you guys understand, we're not breaking down all of codependency. I mean, people have written books and there's courses and there's all kinds of things we can point you to, and we'll add some to the show notes.
00:02:35
Speaker
But we really specifically want to talk about the confusion within codependency. And like I said, I think that that starts with the definition. So, Seth, what's the definition for you? Well, I mean, I guess we should start off with first defining the definition or putting the definition out there in Webster's dictionary.
00:02:57
Speaker
which says excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, typically one who requires support on account of an illness or addiction. So I wanna define it my way though. Is that fair? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think it doesn't have to be just a partner, it could be two or more people, a relationship that involves two or more people where one or both partners enables
00:03:27
Speaker
the other person or another person to essentially cross boundaries, to violate boundaries. And instead of disrupting the status quo out of fear of neglect, fear of abandonment, fear of retaliation, they continue to allow this person's poor behavior towards them to continue.
00:03:54
Speaker
And so you stay in this line. And one of the many reasons. Oh, I'll say one of the many reasons why I love the fact that we're doing this together is because you have this long detailed explanation.
Fear and Codependency
00:04:05
Speaker
And we are actually talking about this before the recording, which is my definition is if you're not OK, I'm not OK. Very simply, I think that in that encompasses everything that you're saying, right, that allows
00:04:20
Speaker
me to let my boundaries be violated and opens me up for really losing myself within the relationship. But because I'm exerting so much of my energy and effort in trying to make you okay. Yeah.
00:04:35
Speaker
I mean, it is all fear-based, right? I mean, we could talk about how this plays out in most relationships because codependency could be a very large issue within the relationship or it could be very small, but there's codependent
00:04:52
Speaker
um tendencies in almost any relationship because we all are afraid of something we're all afraid of being left or we're all afraid of being treated poorly or whatever it might be and so we allow a lot of times we allow that partner our partner
00:05:10
Speaker
And it could happen inside a business relationship as well. You know, we allow that person to continue to violate boundaries because we're afraid if we say something or, you know, bring up the fact that, hey, this doesn't feel good. We're going to break up or you're going to say something really mean that's going to hurt my feelings. And so I think I think it's very fear is generated from this place of fear that we all tend to have.
00:05:37
Speaker
Yeah. And actually on that note, there are some things I wanted to talk to you about, about our business, our marketing business together, because now that you bring it up, I've got a few bones to pick with you. That's really why I brought up this topic. Gotcha. Go for it.
00:05:55
Speaker
No, I think I agree 100% because fear is such a powerful emotion. And I've touched on it in some in the previous season and how it really shuts down parts of our brains that we can't see things logically or we can't understand them. And so we can't have those conversations, but specific within codependency.
00:06:17
Speaker
I guess my question to you, or maybe what we can dive into a little bit is how, given what we're talking about, whether it is the fear or the, you know, concern for the other person or the over, the unhealthy concern for the other person, I think it's totally normal and good to be concerned for the other person. How does that create confusion? Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. I think, I think that we,
00:06:45
Speaker
encounter confusion when there's a lack of communication. Why? Well, because I don't know where you're at and you don't know where I'm at. And so we make assumptions that maybe aren't accurate and then that leads to judgments, which leads to resentments. And so it creates this confusing space of like, I don't know where you're at.
00:07:07
Speaker
I don't know what you're thinking. Are you upset with me? Are you not upset? Are you okay with this relationship? What's missing? And so if I can't communicate my boundaries and maybe we don't even know how, maybe that's something that we all need to look at is if we're never taught boundaries, then how do we express those in a relationship going forward? If our boundaries were always crossed when we were children, then how are we expecting
00:07:33
Speaker
our partner not to also cross those boundaries because we don't even know them ourselves. So now I'm confused on what's okay and what's not. And when this continues to remain in a relationship, it doesn't get any better.
Codependency in Relationships
00:07:51
Speaker
It has to be addressed. So I'd say that confusion really starts with the lack of communication.
00:07:57
Speaker
Yeah, you know what they say about assumptions is that sometimes you're right. Oh, no, no, no, wrong. Wrong. There's probably some statistics to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't be wrong. I'll never forget. I'll never forget when I was in middle school and I had a substitute teacher that wrote assumptions on the board. Right. And then underlined ass out of you and me the whole thing.
00:08:22
Speaker
And I'll never forget it, because it was like, oh, a teacher swore in school. That's so cool. And so I don't know. I don't know what it is, but I'm going to remember that. That's right. And that teacher's now a badass, my favorite teacher. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know for me, and we may be getting a little bit ahead of ourselves, but for me, I know that in my marriage, my previous marriage,
00:08:50
Speaker
where that caused confusion was, and the codependency on my side of things, was that, especially towards the end of our marriage, when she was going through certain things and processing them, I was in a state of panic, in a sense, partly because, I mean, there was a lot of factors in play, but I was trying to guess what she would need to then be okay with her process.
00:09:18
Speaker
And then I lost myself within the marriage because I didn't have a voice, I didn't speak up, I didn't have those hard conversations unless they looked like blow-ups or arguments and then apologies after the fact. And then I found myself apologizing for things that I really didn't need to apologize for. And I think that that is an important distinction in the sense of, for me, I kind of took on the victim side of it
00:09:47
Speaker
where this is all happening to me and it's all her fault and then we get into the blame game of it, but really what it was is just codependency. But in that, I exerted, like I said before, so much energy and effort in trying to make her okay or fix the problem, or what I saw was the problem, that all of a sudden I lost my masculinity, I lost my strength, I lost my voice,
00:10:15
Speaker
And it, my voice became the victim's role, the victim's voice of essentially this is happening to me. I am powerless to be able to do anything about it. I am at the whim of, you know, whatever her decisions are. And there's definitely give and take within a marriage and within a relationship or really give and take in any relationship that's meaningful.
00:10:38
Speaker
But when you give to the degree that you are trying to fix that person or you're stuck in this codependent status, then you really do lose your strength, which has a ripple effect throughout every area, not just the relationship itself, but at least for me with my coaching and consulting and all of that.
00:10:57
Speaker
I found myself, you know, feeling like a fraud, feeling like I wasn't as strong in certain sessions because I had given up my voice. I had given up my boundaries. I had become essentially a doormat for her. Not intentionally, I don't think at all on her side of things, but I had basically become the doormat that just laid down and was willing to be walked on.
00:11:25
Speaker
for the sake of trying to play the victim role and for the sake of trying to figure out what the problem was so that then I could turn around and go fix it. Yeah, and I mean, there's something about, I mean, in a partnership and in a relationship, vulnerability is a scary thing. And so when we
00:11:45
Speaker
think about even sharing our needs. If we think about sharing what's okay, what our boundaries are, like we get scared, you know, it goes back to the whole fear thing. But I think that, you know, I'm just curious for you, did you find it
00:12:03
Speaker
I mean, I don't want to assume anything, but I feel like, I mean, you kind of have a type A personality on some level, but I think that your ex-wife did too. And I know mine did. And so it was kind of like this same thing. And my ex-wife was older than me. And so it always felt like
00:12:28
Speaker
I was having to submit strangely enough to what she wanted me to be, to conform to what she expected me to be. And so that was always that like, am I okay? Or I should say, are you okay? Are you okay with me thinking this way? Are you okay with me doing these things? And so always trying to check in with her again to make sure she's okay, but never expressing to her the things that I need, like, hey,
00:12:56
Speaker
it's not okay that you you know raged at me like that or you use that kind of language with me kind of thing and so i never knew how to set up boundaries and so i go into this marriage very unequipped ill-equipped you know so i think uh
Learning Boundaries
00:13:18
Speaker
where I learned it was probably from growing up, not being taught how to express boundaries or have my own boundaries. People ran all over them. And then I get into a relationship with a woman who I thought I was going to marry. Um, and she was very good at boundaries and she was saying, Seth, this is not okay with me. This is not okay with me. And I'm just talking about like, you know, not,
00:13:42
Speaker
sexual or physical boundaries even which is definitely an important thing but more like hey your behavior or the way that you're talking to me or you know even asking me what I think about certain things you never consider me those kinds of things I'm like when we get into a relationship we realize how selfish we can be
00:14:03
Speaker
And we forget that there's two people in this and we have to learn that song and dance of communication. Otherwise it does get very confusing. I know I was. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of that is like you said, it's, you don't realize an unhealthy, what an unhealthy norm is when it's your norm, you know, when you're brought up and, and not that my mom is or was a type A personality, she's probably the opposite of that, but my dad.
00:14:33
Speaker
definitely modeled not expressing needs and not having needs and kind of took that victim slash doormat role within their marriage. And so that was what was modeled to me. And so all of a sudden, especially when you bump up against somebody who can communicate those things,
00:14:53
Speaker
That's scary, that's hard, that's uncomfortable, and we're not getting into the whole avoidance cycles today necessarily, but that's still something that I have to choose to fight against in the sense of, even though I know it was modeled to me, even though I know that there are unhealthy aspects of it and I'm not recreating that in my current relationship, et cetera, I still have to consciously choose
00:15:23
Speaker
to lean into instead of away from intimacy with that person because I know that it's not just a matter of intimacy with her, but it's also directly connected to me having a voice. And like I said, in so many other areas.
00:15:40
Speaker
Man, that's a really good point. And I think that is probably something that we all struggle with is recognizing that we have a voice and it needs to be exercised because what happens as children, you know, we're told to be seen and not heard most of the time, you know? Yeah. And so what does that communicate to us? Well, we don't have anything valuable to say. We're not allowed to voice our needs.
00:16:05
Speaker
um, or our boundaries. And so we go through life, allowing others to just kind of run, you know, run, run over us. Um, I mean, I guess to dive in a little bit more to, to the, the dynamic of my marriage is, you know, I, I asked a woman, a single mom to marry me and she already had a life established.
00:16:30
Speaker
And I'm asking her to come on to my boat and let's sail away together. But she already had a boat that she had already built. And she wasn't really ready to abandon that and come with this single bachelor guy that has no experience with fatherhood. And so I spent years trying to conform to who she wanted me to be. And in that, I silenced myself for years.
00:17:00
Speaker
And we both brought baggage into the marriage, but hers was always more important. Like her needs were more important because I allowed it. I didn't voice, I didn't speak up and say, well, guess what? I'm important too. I have a voice and some of these things don't work for me either.
00:17:24
Speaker
You know, so, I mean, we could look at different relationships, ones that deal with addiction.
Codependency and Addiction
00:17:30
Speaker
I mean, maybe that's something that we should bring up right now is that we see a lot of codependency in people in relationships where one or both partners suffer from some sort of addiction. So it's kind of like, hey, you struggle with alcoholism? Well, I am going to, you know, I find identity in one either rescuing you,
00:17:53
Speaker
in your addiction or allowing you to continue with the addiction as long as you allow me to find identity in taking care of you and cleaning up your mess. That's another messy looking codependent type of dynamic. But I don't know what are, I mean, what does it look like for you in what you've seen? Because I know that you've coached people
00:18:21
Speaker
that have had similar kind of stories. But I'm curious as like, what are some of maybe the more extreme and then maybe what are more of the average that you might see day to day people's normal kind of either norm in society.
00:18:37
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think that the you touched on some of the extremes, which is when you get addiction involved. Right. And so you have the the yo-yo effect. A very common one is let's just use alcoholism as an example. Then, you know, somebody gets clean and then things are great for a month, two months, three months, six months. And then they relapse or they do the yo-yo and
00:19:04
Speaker
Again, it goes back to as long as they're okay, when you have a partner who is working through addiction, and you're stuck in this codependent loop, then as long as they're doing okay, as long as they're taking baby steps towards something that looks like a healthier norm, then I'm okay. Then I can feel at peace and at ease, but the second that they start to go back towards the addiction,
00:19:33
Speaker
then my whole world falls apart. Like what I've established internally falls apart because then all of a sudden they're not okay. They're now messy. And it doesn't have to look like addiction. It can also look like the end of my marriage where she was just questioning things, going through spiritual deconstruction and questioning things and unsure of certain things. And so within that, you have,
00:19:59
Speaker
aspects where for me it was if it goes back to the whole if i'm not okay or if you're not okay i'm not okay right and and so then all of a sudden. Your life and your needs and your boundaries and everything gets put on pause until that other person is okay or there.
00:20:19
Speaker
They're maybe they're not okay, but they're at least propping themselves up temporarily and and then okay now we can move on with life and then as soon as there's a misstep within that then all of a sudden that dynamic
Breaking the Cycle
00:20:34
Speaker
crumbles because it's not built on trust, it's not built on intimacy, it's not built on codependency. And so it's really hard to break that cycle. It's not at all impossible and it's definitely doable, but it's a messy process. I've had clients that I meet with where we're meeting together and they're talking through certain things and they have this expectation where
00:21:03
Speaker
Okay, well, if I meet with you for a month, especially if only one person wants to do the work, that's another big aspect. But if I meet with you for a month, then things are gonna be okay, right? It's like, well, more than likely, they're gonna get messier before they get better. Because if you have been married, or just, let's just say in a relationship, doesn't even matter if you're married or not, if you've been in a relationship for an extended period of time to confront the unhealthy norm and to establish a new healthy norm,
00:21:33
Speaker
That is not a light switch that's not you know we're stuck in this microwave mentality of a quick fix or a course or a book that's just going to do the end all be all and it may be revealing and it may be telling and it may point you in the right direction but it still requires a lot of hard work and
00:21:52
Speaker
especially for let's say that the person using the person struggling with addiction for them to set a healthy boundary and then to hold that healthy boundary. That that can be harder than even setting the healthy boundary so i would give homework to clients you know it's like any relationship.
00:22:13
Speaker
Well go have this conversation and establish this boundary. And that feels scary and that feels hard and all of that. But what you find is if you're in a codependent relationship, when you set that boundary, the other person, essentially their inner child is going to start to kick and scream.
00:22:29
Speaker
and to try to reestablish what that norm is. And normally what that looks like is either an explosive reaction to a healthy boundary or it looks like completely pulling away stone cooling or stonewalling the other person until they go, okay, okay, well, I'm sorry. Me establishing that boundary for myself, that was unhealthy for us and for our relationship. So let me, maybe not in these words, but let me backtrack my boundary.
00:22:57
Speaker
so that I can reestablish this warped sense of intimacy or relationship with you. And so it's hard, that's why it's messy. Because you may have to set a boundary, especially if there hasn't been one, and then hold that boundary for an extended period of time, not for the sake of punishing the other person or trying to get them in line, but really for the sake of the relationship. Whether that's a business relationship or a friendship or a marriage, doesn't matter what it is.
00:23:26
Speaker
The dynamic of of establishing that healthy norm and in both in communication and an intimacy is is really a challenge to do because of that whole you know kick and scream that again, that's that inner child the inner child doesn't care what your mind or your
00:23:46
Speaker
Logical thirty five forty five fifty five year old self knows to be true your inner child if there's still trauma or something that's unresolved or unhealed or if it was the norm growing up. It's essentially going to go I'm really scared and I'm terrified and I'm in a lot of pain and so I need to. And get that attention or that that reestablished unhealthy codependency back because that's familiar.
00:24:10
Speaker
They may even hate it, but it's familiar. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you just said, the term that pops into my mind is maintaining the status quo.
00:24:22
Speaker
right? Whether it's in a family or just a one-on-one partner, a marriage, like we establish a status quo. Like this is our norm. This is the way things are. Don't rock the boat, right? And that perpetuates that codependence and the roles within that codependent relationship. As soon as another person begins to get healthier,
00:24:43
Speaker
begins to become more self-aware and aware of the dynamic of the relationship, that's when we start to rock the boat. And that's where it gets uncomfortable, like you said. And so we can either back away, we can set that line, that boundary, and hold it and let it be painful for both people until we equalize or we retract that boundary and we go back to the status quo.
00:25:12
Speaker
most healing, the most growth that comes in any relationship is when at least one of those people, one of the roles takes a step in that direction by setting a line and re calibrating or redefining the dynamic of that relationship. And so I just think it's so good. I was just gonna say and what that does is going back to the whole confusion of codependency is when you are willing to hold that line,
00:25:42
Speaker
Again not out of punishment or retaliation but out of health moving towards healthy. When you're willing to hold that line it empowers you it gives you a sense of clarity it gives you a sense of a voice and just. Not put you on the spot because we already talked about this. But a sense of how hard this actually is.
00:26:04
Speaker
is you had talked about the fact that when you were married, you realized you were in a codependent relationship and then that relationship came to an end and it was like, okay, never again. I'm never again gonna find myself in a place where I have given up my voice for the sake of a relationship and then you had your shitty week.
Personal Growth Through Codependency
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah, well,
00:26:33
Speaker
I can't wait to get into sharing about my shitty week, but before I do that, I should probably create a little context even furthermore with the marriage, because the last year or two of my marriage was like when, obviously everything's coming to a head, but I'm becoming aware of the codependency.
00:26:52
Speaker
And honestly, that came from two things. One, it came from working with plant medicine. And so we've talked about this in the past. When you do work with that, it slows blood flow to the default mode network. So whenever we have those emotional stimuli or we feel uncomfortable emotionally, we have this knee jerk reaction or this default reaction to that stimuli.
00:27:22
Speaker
And so in starting to work with the plant medicine, I began to realize other responses or lack of responses that would actually lend more to the solution of whatever that issue was, right? Yeah. The second thing was I had read a book called The Empowerment Dynamic. And we'll put that in the show notes below. But essentially, it showed me what it looks like to be inside of a victim mindset.
00:27:51
Speaker
And then the antithesis of that is the creator mindset. And so I realized that even though I might not be feeling like a victim, I'm still thinking like a victim and allowing this codependency to remain in the relationship. So once I identified that and I began to take certain actions or setting certain boundaries within my marriage,
00:28:14
Speaker
like now it's on my ex-wife or wife at that time to respond accordingly. Okay and of course she was not okay with that. Hopefully with most people like if you raise the bar right here's two people you raise the bar and then the other person hopefully responds in kind that's how the relationship gets better right.
00:28:38
Speaker
But the other person could be like, nope, I'm not doing that. I'm not I'm not coming up to that level because it's uncomfortable. I want to keep the status quo. Maybe they have slight narcissism in their nature and they're feeling like, hey, I can't control you anymore. And then I know we're going to get into this in a later episode, but I can't.
00:28:57
Speaker
control you anymore. And so now I'm going to torpedo this thing. And that's, that is essentially what happened in my marriage is like, I was ready to go the next level and actually have a healthy marriage. Um, where codependency was no longer there and control and manipulation was no longer there. And she said, no, I'm out.
00:29:16
Speaker
And so that's, and then, you know, a few other things happened, but that was the core of what kind of finally dismantled this straw in the camel's back that dismantled the marriage. So good. Real quick on that is, you know, I call it the rubber band effect.
00:29:32
Speaker
It's the same thing that you're talking about, but basically when you have two people that are at that same level or that same plane, when one person changes it, it's like pulling a rubber band apart and there's tension there, right? And so the other person has a choice
00:29:50
Speaker
Do they want to adjust and move towards this new healthy norm or not? And using your marriage as an example, eventually, if you continue to move towards something that is healthier,
00:30:07
Speaker
And that other person chooses not to, that rubber band is going to snap. And so, you know, it's, it's one or the other that, and as long as you're willing to hold that line, right? As long as you're willing to maintain that, that strength that you get from those boundaries for yourself and for your kids and ultimately for the relationship, for a healthy relationship to do that requires sitting in that tension and holding that rubber band apart.
00:30:37
Speaker
You know that's that's that whole dynamic of like it's so much easier just to go and let some of that tension off. But you know what once you kind of lock into this journey of self exploration of healing of whatever it may be which again plant medicine I feel like it's an accelerant for that.
00:30:55
Speaker
that it accelerates the tension or the distance in that rubber band where then the other person has to choose. Do they want to let that rubber band snap or are they going to move towards whatever that healthy new norm is? Yeah. And it's, I love that you said that how plant medicine is the accelerant because I mean, we spent years in this marriage hoping that something is going to change, right? It's kind of a whole definition of insanity thing, hoping something's going to change with going through
00:31:23
Speaker
multiple marriage conferences and counselings and therapy and just trying everything, which I think is great. Like our head was in the right spot of trying to fix what was broken.
00:31:36
Speaker
but it wasn't until I started working with the plant medicine. And I truly believe that if we had worked with it together, it could have saved the marriage. That's just- Yeah. Yeah. It's just- I feel the same way about mine. Okay. Yeah. So, but you know what? That's a, it's still a controversial thing. And she made a decision.
00:31:54
Speaker
based off of how she was feeling and the facts at the time, the best decision that she probably felt like she could make. And so I don't fault her for that. But I do believe that if we had the opportunity to work together with the plant medicine, it could have been a different outcome.
Men's Instincts and Emotions
00:32:10
Speaker
But I think that as men, we also try to, we want to fix things. And so I was thinking about it earlier when you were talking about it too, just as men trying to fix things,
00:32:21
Speaker
And it's just kind of in our DNA. Maybe you're in our left brain logic. We have doing things is that we, and you probably know somebody like this is like, you know, are you okay? What's wrong? Are you, what are you thinking? You know what? Uh, you, you seem off. Did I do something wrong?
00:32:36
Speaker
you know, those kinds of things where I'm like, okay, you're not okay. I'm not okay. How do I fix this? You know? Yeah. And it, and it's funny cause it came up in my relationship with my girlfriend this weekend where we were going to dinner with her sister. And when we left the house, we're like, yay, let's go have dinner. And they took a different car. It took my car. We get to the restaurant, we sit down and it is just like crickets. Like she is nonresponsive.
00:33:07
Speaker
And so I'm looking at her going, you know, are you okay? Is everything okay? What's wrong? And it's just nothing. And so typically in the past, I would go, okay, you're not okay. I'm not okay. But instead,
00:33:24
Speaker
I'm like, okay, she's working through something. When she's ready to talk, she can talk, but I'm not going to force her to talk. I'm not, I'm just going to sit back and empower her to be the amazing person that she is. And when she's ready to talk, she can share. I don't need to be, I don't need her to share for me to be okay.
00:33:44
Speaker
And so I'm just gonna sit there and have a conversation with her sister and let her work through her thing. Whereas in the past, I would just be like, I would isolate, I would shut down because I'm thinking, I did something wrong. How do I fix that? Because now I'm not okay. And now the whole meal, the whole time together is gonna suffer.
Current Struggles with Codependency
00:34:05
Speaker
But that's not my shitty week. That's just something that I noticed this week. So, I mean, do you want me to jump into it?
00:34:12
Speaker
Yeah, let's do it. Your shitty week. So my shitty week came, gosh, what, a month ago? Yeah, something like that. Something like that. And this is what it looked like. Me and my girlfriend, we're in a weird spot kind of missing each other, having maybe some communication issues or whatnot.
00:34:33
Speaker
And she says, hey, let's take five days away from all communication. So no texting, phone calls, emails, no Instagram, social media responses on any of our stuff, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, OK, why? What's going on?
00:34:56
Speaker
And I feel like we just need to take a little time apart for me to figure things out with some things or whatever, just see what it's like. Of course, now I'm thinking, I'm processing this as, oh crap, she's not okay. Now I'm not okay. But I'm said, okay, yeah, let's do that. I'm with you.
00:35:21
Speaker
I was not with her at all. This was not even a little. I did not want to do this at all. But I wanted to give her something that she was requesting. And I think I might have lasted about two days, maybe. Yeah. You were kind of along in that process. So I might have lasted two days before I reached out and said, I can't do this. This is hard. And I'm freaking out over here.
00:35:47
Speaker
And what I discovered was that even though everything that I had learned from the dissolution of my marriage in regards to the dynamic of our relationship, I still had codependent issues that were surfacing. I was feeling that her pulling away, it felt a lot like the, and I'll just say without getting into the details, I felt betrayal and abandonment in my marriage, like the way that it ended.
00:36:14
Speaker
And so in my girlfriend kind of having this pullback, it felt like all those insecurities were coming up. She's gonna leave me. I don't trust that she's not gonna hurt me. Just the myriad of different emotions that are negative and they don't feel good. And instead of sitting in that emotion and that discomfort, I ran over her boundary.
00:36:40
Speaker
which was, hey, let's take five days and then we'll reconnect. And I ran over that boundary with a text or I think a text or video or audio or something like that. And my excuse was, cause of course I've got to justify the fact that I violated her boundary.
00:37:00
Speaker
was I need to feel connection. My need is to feel connected to you and I don't feel connected to you, I'm not okay. And I don't know if you remember what you said, but it was really well put. You said, and mind you, this was the confusion.
00:37:22
Speaker
confusion that codependency creates. I could not tell my ass from a hole in the ground because of all of the emotional confusion I had based off of these codependent tendencies. And so, you said, Seth, it looks like you're using connection, which is a noble thing, right? Connection is a good thing. You're using connection as
00:37:44
Speaker
as essentially a facade to, to, to run over someone else's boundary. I don't know if you remember exactly how it was put, but yeah, it was, uh, it was, you're using connection as a facade, um, to justify your codependency. I think that's what I said. Yeah. And to, to run over that, run over her boundary. And so.
00:38:09
Speaker
Once, and honestly, people that have experienced this, you know, like emotions can be very intoxicating to where you can't think straight. And this was a case of that. And I don't remember ever feeling that. Oh, I don't remember feeling that in a long time. And I just could not wrap my head around it because the emotion was so thick. Once I started to sober up and I started having you, you know, and just I guess the universe speaking truth and saying, this is what it looks like you're doing. You're not okay. You got this codependency thing going on.
00:38:40
Speaker
it helped to start sobering me up and go, wow, that was an area of codependency that I didn't realize was still there. And I don't want that in my relationship. And I had to begin to let go, because I had wrapped up a whole lot of emphasis on our future relationship together. And almost like in a fantasy way, like I was fantasizing about our future together, and now that's all crushing down, you know, coming down potentially. But if I can't give her space,
00:39:09
Speaker
If I'm going to violate her boundaries, she should not be in a relationship with me. And I had to own that and I had to apologize for it. Um, but man, it was, it got a little messy that weekend and it was rough. And it was, you, you remember, I was, I was in a, a dark place for at least a week. I'm just trying to figure that out.
00:39:29
Speaker
Yeah, and the reason why we're bringing that up is not to picket a scab or expose you, but more so just to show a really practical, tangible example of how hard it is to even if you've done the work, you know, it doesn't mean that you're going backwards in the work by any means.
00:39:49
Speaker
but especially when it's modeled to you, especially when it is, it has become a norm, you can work through that and still have those tendencies. I think tendencies is a great word to use because it's not your norm, right? You, you've actually, one of the things that drives me crazy about us as friends, as well as I value so much is the fact it is our communication just as friends and that we don't sweep things under the rug and that we call things out and, and,
00:40:20
Speaker
So within that, it's like, well, sidebar, I think that it's invaluable, especially for men to have other men that know them well enough and that you trust enough to be willing to hear the hard truths from. I think there's a lack of that in a lot of ways right now where there's the unhealthy side of empowerment
00:40:43
Speaker
which is I don't need anybody. We all need somebody or somebodies, two or three guys that can really speak truth into your life when you need to hear it. But the other side of it is, and I also witnessed, yes, I witnessed the confusion and the mess and the emotion and all of that, but I also witnessed where when you have that spoken out and you kind of have that realization,
00:41:09
Speaker
And then the actions that you chose to take, right? It's that whole rubber band effect. You chose to let off the tension in a healthy way and go, okay, I need to own this and this, and I need to point these certain emotions at myself to find out what's going on and sit in it and navigate through
Relationships as Growth Tools
00:41:27
Speaker
it.
00:41:27
Speaker
And then clean up the mess that i made because i did bulldoze her boundary and so i need to apologize for that and so you know you moved through it in what i would say was a very admirable way but you it was. You couldn't find that clarity to take the action to back to health.
00:41:44
Speaker
while you were in the midst of that codependent tendency because if you did a graph or an image, a landscape of your relationship, I don't know all the details obviously, but it's a healthy relationship. You guys have open communication, you love one another, you're willing to express things, you give each other space, all of that.
00:42:06
Speaker
But then there is this tendency that's still present for us to kind of peel back that layer of the onion and go, Oh shit. Well, I guess that's still there. I need to work on that in me to continue to have that healthy norm and really, um, what I ultimately desire in a relationship. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think ultimately.
00:42:30
Speaker
The relationships are there to make us better people, right? And we could have just said, OK, this is too hard. Adios, amigo. We're done. But the fact that I was able to own it, call it out, not continue to be controlling or manipulative, because that is the alternative, is to take it to the next level with the manipulation and control, but instead go, dang it.
00:43:00
Speaker
probably later that day after I ran over the boundary, maybe even within the hour, I'm like crap. I ran over her boundary and I had to reach out and she said, I'm not gonna violate this boundary again until we get to the end of this five days.
00:43:18
Speaker
But I'm sorry, I ran over your boundary and I owned it, you know, but it comes from self-awareness. I would not have known any of this if one, I wasn't aware of it, but two, that I didn't have people speaking into my life saying, well, this is what it looks like. You know, I didn't have you go, you know, from a more objective point of view, observing the situation, go, well, this looks like you're being a retard. You're being an idiot. You know, you're being an emotional idiot right now. And, um,
00:43:48
Speaker
And I was able to learn from that and go, okay, this is something
Identity and Relationships
00:43:51
Speaker
I still have. So even, it doesn't matter how much you've become aware of it or how much you've worked through it. Like I thought, I was like, man, I own this codependency thing coming out of my marriage. Shit, I could talk about this. And then bam, that humility smacks you upside the head and goes, no, you still got some chinks in your armor here. You need to take a look at this. But I think it was also because I had, that codependency caused me to attach too much
00:44:18
Speaker
uh, to an unhealthy part of the relationship, you know, to where it was like, I put you in the God spot. I put you in this place of like worshiping and maybe it's not even her, maybe it's just the relationship. Like I was worshiping the, the potential of the relationship, the future of the relationship. And I held it in that God spot. And then once that started to be dismantled, my identity began to be threatened.
00:44:41
Speaker
You know, maybe that's a question for people too is in the relationship, what is in that God spot? If everything in that relationship just was dismantled today, would you be okay? And that's a question everybody should probably ask themselves is would I be okay? What is, what is my identity grounded in? If I lost all of this, this relationship, would I be okay with me?
00:45:05
Speaker
And I think that's really important question to ask ourselves because if we are dependent on other people instead of being independent, then we typically will try to leech from that relationship something that would be unhealthy.
00:45:21
Speaker
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think that's a great place to kind of wrap things up is to, you know, one, if you find yourself in, in, you know, this conversation, you're going, Oh, well I do that and I do that, or I don't do that, or I should do that.
00:45:40
Speaker
is let the clarity give you an opportunity for action towards whatever a new healthy norm is. And two, give yourself grace in understanding that no matter how much work you've done, that it can still rear its ugly head and we're all going to fall into those old traps or those old tendencies.
00:46:06
Speaker
And as men you know what is a real man do well he takes ownership of the mistakes that he makes he. Realizes that you know hey what i did was wrong and he owns that first and foremost for himself and then owns that in whatever relationship that maybe he got into an unhealthy place with.
00:46:28
Speaker
And so if you find yourself being challenged by this or maybe realizing certain areas that you need to work on or kind of lean into,
00:46:37
Speaker
It's not easy, it's hard, but that's what real men do, is they do the hard things and they navigate towards what a new healthy norm is. And if Seth and I can do it, then guaranteed as big of a mess as we were and are at times, then I can guarantee that you can do it too.