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Meet the host: Abby
44 Plays1 year ago
Abby, a machine learning marketing engineer, discusses her experiences in the startup environment at an MLOps company and how she leveraged micro-experiences to secure her job.
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Transcript
Startup Challenges and Successes
00:00:16
Speaker
Hey Abby, how's your day been? Hey Alyssa. It's a great day. It's another typical day to start up. A lot of unanticipated challenges and I guess that also means a lot of unanticipated successes.
00:00:30
Speaker
Yes, I can only imagine I've done a few startups in my life, but now working at a big enterprise. So this is going to be a big contrast episode from my episode. Absolutely. Yeah. In a lot of ways, two different worlds, but also, I'm sure quite a few similarities.
00:00:51
Speaker
Absolutely. In tech, the processes are somewhat similar despite being on a lean team or a robust team. We will discover that now.
Career Transition to Tech
00:01:03
Speaker
But to continue to introduce our other hosts, Abby is a machine learning marketing engineer at Comet, an MLOps startup where she spends time building and deploying machine learning models while keeping one foot firmly in marketing. Before pivoting into tech, she worked in hospitality management for over a decade.
00:01:24
Speaker
A decade's a long time, so let's just get into it. What were you doing in hospitality management? What's hospitality management? I know what it is, but let's just talk about it. Yeah, absolutely. So hospitality management is never something that I thought I would find myself doing at all, let alone for that long. But getting myself through college, and even after that, I worked in restaurants, serving and bartending, as a lot of folks do.
00:01:53
Speaker
And I had always planned on going to grad school or going down some really exciting career path. But at about 20 years old, the money I was making bartending
00:02:09
Speaker
felt pretty good. So I kind of got stuck in that trap for a while and eventually moved into management of bars and restaurants. And I knew for quite some time that that was not what I wanted to do with my life, but I'm sure there's folks out there that will be familiar with this feeling. I just had no idea what I wanted to do. And I didn't want, I
00:02:34
Speaker
I was interested in going back to school, but I didn't want to spend a bunch of money only to get another degree in something that wasn't really what I was interested in. In lieu of taking any action at all, I just got really stuck in that position for a really long time.
00:02:54
Speaker
Sure, people can definitely relate to that. I worked in restaurants and I definitely came across people that they wanted to go back to school, but they just did not want to pay however much it was. And yeah, that's a very, very real feeling. But clearly you're not doing that now. So something changed. I would love to know what that catalyst was. You're not going to go
00:03:18
Speaker
back and get an expensive graduate degree, but you did something. So what was that something and what got you there?
Impact of COVID on Career Path
00:03:25
Speaker
What got me there was COVID. I think... Hopefully it wasn't you being infected with COVID. Hopefully it was just the situation. Yeah, no, not at the time, but... Okay, good. Don't want you to get sick. Me neither. So COVID happened to the world and it was, you know, a blessing in disguise for me.
00:03:45
Speaker
It obviously shook the world. Everything shut down. Anyone who's listening will remember that, so I don't need to explain it. But what the blessing in disguise was for me is hospitality was one of the first industries to completely get knocked sideways. So everything closed down.
00:04:05
Speaker
In the beginning, it wasn't a matter of even reduced hours or modified ways of serving people. At the beginning, just everything was closed and there was no work to be had. And it was a scary moment of, okay, I've been wanting to work in something else for a long time, but now I have no other choice. Now I have to find something. So it was a little bit of a mad scramble for me to
00:04:29
Speaker
try to figure out what I was going to do. And one of my first jobs just to make money at that time was working as a COVID contact tracer for the Massachusetts Department of Health. And that was fully remote on the phone, speaking to folks all day. But what that opportunity gave me was a
00:04:54
Speaker
exposure to the data teams that were working in the epidemiological outbreak detection and just in general gathering and organizing and modeling of data. And I didn't by any means have anything to do with that data or with, you know,
00:05:19
Speaker
the insights that came from that data, but I was very active in helping collect that data and then seeing some of the things they did with it. And I found it really, really interesting. Um, and so I started to just do like very superficial research into different data careers and what those things could look like. And I stumbled upon.
00:05:45
Speaker
a really famous article that I think most folks that have gone into data science have read, which is a infamous Harvard Business Review article that flaunted data scientists as the sexiest job of the century or a decade or something like that.
00:06:03
Speaker
And I thought, oh, great, this is a huge opportunity. Everyone needs a data scientist on their team now. This is what I should be doing. Didn't totally work out like that, but I am still very glad that I decided to make the shift. That's quite incredible. I mean, COVID, of course, devastated so many lives. And I too bold to say that it helps your life, like it made your life better in a way.
00:06:28
Speaker
I do. I actually, I think it, it, it was a much needed kick in the butt for me. I was, I was comfortable enough in things that I wasn't making some of the changes that I wanted to. And, uh, it really got me to get out of my comfort zone, which is what my whole career pivot has been about is just getting my feet dirty and something I had never, I hadn't had any experience in.
00:06:53
Speaker
Absolutely. And the fact that you just took a job because you needed a job and it ended up parlaying into the career you have now, that's fantastic. And I definitely want to read this article. I don't plan on switching into data science. I still think UX could be sexy, but we'll just beg to differ there.
00:07:10
Speaker
But tell me, you read this article, you were really interested in data. What got you involved with Springboard? Why did you think that course might be right for you? Sure. So I knew that to switch into any career, I was going to need a lot of retraining, whether that was like traditional school or something like an online boot camp. And certainly for a pivot into tech, I was going to need technical training.
00:07:40
Speaker
So I started looking around at just what sort of options were out there. I didn't really want to go back to traditional school, mostly because of cost and time. It was a huge commitment in both cost and time. And I didn't necessarily see that there was a proportional value on the other end of those investments.
00:08:07
Speaker
Higher education obviously can help. I already had an undergrad degree, so this would have just been a graduate degree. And I just didn't think that the cost and time investments were worth it. So I was looking around at other options. This was around the time when online boot camps were starting to get pretty popular. So it wasn't that difficult to stumble upon some options. And Springboard stood out to me mostly, I think, I was drawn to
00:08:34
Speaker
They're one-on-one mentors. I really wanted to have at least one grounding rock that could help guide me through the program if I had questions or if I needed feedback or guidance. So the mentor was a big part of it. And also, I liked the idea of the capstone projects, which would give me something at the end of the curriculum to
00:09:01
Speaker
you know, something physical to show people, these are what I made, this is what I built. So even if I didn't have, for example, a graduate degree in data to show a potential employer, I wanted to be able to show those projects as representatives of what I could do.
00:09:16
Speaker
Absolutely. So I'm curious, in UX design, there's a whole push and pull of you need experience to get experience and showing just bootcamp projects isn't the strongest portfolio.
00:09:33
Speaker
Is that, how does that relate to data science? Do you need to, I mean, obviously it always helps to have real world experience for any career, I think, unless maybe you're a doctor and you're getting trained in middle school school or something like that. But what's that like for data science? Yeah, that's a great question. And I think it's probably a similar story for data science as for UX UI. That was my under, my understand my.
00:09:58
Speaker
Uh, my understanding, I guess, going into the program, I thought that just that portfolio was gonna help me get a job. And it certainly was an element of what ended up helping me get a job. It is more complicated than that.
00:10:11
Speaker
I think that's probably one of the most common questions I get asked by folks like current students is how do you get experience when you don't have experience? Because anything you apply to says minimum one to two to six to eight years experience. How do you get that first thing on your resume? And that was something I was really, really focused on.
00:10:35
Speaker
during the curriculum as soon as I realized that it was probably going to be an issue. And some of the best advice I ever got was from a accomplished data scientist very established in their career. And they told me to, to search out something they called micro experiences, which, um,
00:10:57
Speaker
can go by a lot of different names. I mean, it can be an internship, it can be a personal project, it can be a volunteer project, but just get these very small experiences that aren't yet jobs that you can put on your resume or your LinkedIn profile or whatever it is that your potential employer is looking at. So I started just really thinking about
00:11:23
Speaker
any tasks that I were approaching as potential micro experiences. How can I, for lack of a better word, market these small experiences as actual things to put on a resume? And so I found some volunteer work and I got a non-paid internship
00:11:44
Speaker
with a really interesting company based out of Africa that was at the time it was working on a biometric system to be able to verify COVID vaccination cards in the African subcontinent because at the time a really big problem was fake vaccination cards leading to outbreaks. So that was really interesting. I was able to sort of tie the experience I had had as a contact tracer and
00:12:14
Speaker
just understanding the spread of COVID-19 into that experience and also learn a lot about data and machine learning because there were a few different machine learning models involved in that project. And then some of the other micro experiences I got were contributing to community projects. There's different
00:12:38
Speaker
There's different ways to do that, whether you are just getting together with friends and working on something together that you can say you collaborated with people on. Because I think it's really important to show that you can work with other people to create an end result. It's also really important in this day and age, I think, to show that you can remotely collaborate with folks.
00:13:04
Speaker
on something. I did have those those capstone projects that I did with springboard and some other volunteer where I ended up volunteering for springboard as a peer mentor and community organized and I organized a bunch of
00:13:24
Speaker
some were meetups, some were webinars, some were coding sessions just to help my peers and myself with some of the technical content and all of those things were things I ended up putting on my resume as these small experiences that weren't a job and I was very transparent in the fact that none of these things were a job but they were experiences that
00:13:53
Speaker
got me working with data science. And, um, and I think that that's ultimately what helped me to get my first job. That's fantastic. And that was kind of gonna answer my next question was, you know, did you do anything outside of springboard to help get each where you want to go? And I think these micro experiences sound really interesting. Were you doing these after the course or were they concurrent? How did you fit them into the whole journey?
Skill Building and Networking
00:14:24
Speaker
Yeah, so similar to your story, which folks can listen to that episode if they haven't already, I started Springboard ready to get a job. So that was my very close end goal. So I started doing this as soon as I started working on the course. And obviously, earlier on in the course, there was much less that I was technically able to do, but I kept applying to
00:14:53
Speaker
new things to match my increasing technical skill set. But that's another big part of my journey and maybe an unusual part of my journey is that I started
00:15:10
Speaker
gathering these experiences while I was still working with Springboard, which was sometimes a lot. And I'm very privileged to say that I didn't have to also work while I was doing Springboard, which made that all possible. I know not everyone is that lucky. So I actually was able to, I got a job offer before I even finished Springboard, which was very lucky. But yes, a lot of multitasking there. That's, wow. Yeah.
00:15:39
Speaker
Can't imagine doing both. I was only working part-time, which I also realized was kind of a privilege. Most people do work full-time while they're doing springboard full-time and, but still juggling extra projects plus the curriculum is not an easy feat. And I'm curious, were these ones that you went and found yourself or were they ones you found through the springboard community? That's a great question. I think most of them were
00:16:09
Speaker
Some of them were tied to the springboard community for instance the volunteering as an organizer and things like that, but most of them were things I found myself so for example.
00:16:20
Speaker
I was part of the first cohort of peer mentors and organizers. They still are around today. Any current students listening, you can apply to be one yourself. And I recommend it. It's very rewarding. You learn a lot. But yeah, I was part of that first cohort, helping to just sort of set in place what we hope to accomplish.
00:16:43
Speaker
That's incredible, being the first to do something. Yeah, and it's really fun because I'm still in the student slack so I can see the current peer mentors and I can see sort of where they've taken things and it's really great to see the momentum that they've built there. And then there were other things that completely had nothing to do with Springboard, for instance like the internship I found or some of the other outside projects I did.
00:17:11
Speaker
So I'd love to ask, you picked up an internship and I believe you said it was unpaid, yes? Yes, that is another luxury. I realized that I had that not everyone can do that.
00:17:27
Speaker
Yeah, so I'd love to hear you obviously did work for free and no one's here to judge anyone who's done what they needed to do to get to where they are. But I'd love to hear just your take, you know, the work for free to I think you said this work for free to get paid to work. And what's your stance on that free internship? Like, do you think it's immoral? Do you think it's they're necessary? What's your opinion? I
00:17:56
Speaker
I think that's a really difficult question. And I think the answer just really depends on what your situation is there. For my situation, I was I was able to support myself and still do free internships.
00:18:13
Speaker
But I totally understand that not everyone's situation is like that. And if you can't do it, you can't do it. So if you're in a situation or position that you're able to work for free, I would absolutely suggest it. You'll learn a lot. You'll learn things you aren't even anticipating that you might learn because you're just there to sort of do whatever needs to be done. But if you can't do it, obviously, that's just not an option.
00:18:42
Speaker
Of course, of course. So you're in this internship. I'd love to understand just your job hunt. And I know you said you got your job before you finished, but was that the internship you mentioned or was this a different job? Yeah, no, the this was completely different. This was back to like one of my other major takeaways from the program is is just that
00:19:11
Speaker
One of the things that everyone loves to hate the most, but really is super important is networking. However you choose to do it, whether that looks like, you know, tailoring out your, your LinkedIn page, whether that looks like joining hackathons, whether that looks like joining study groups, whatever it may be. But I.
00:19:34
Speaker
had just been sort of throwing my net around trying to meet folks in the industry, not specifically looking for a job, but just trying to get a feel for what sort of things were out there, what people were out there, sort of just put my feelers out. And then before I was finished with the springboard, someone actually came back
00:20:01
Speaker
to me and said, hey, are you looking for a job yet? There's this position that's opened up. Do you want to apply? And I said, you know, sure. And at that point, I had actually already been applying to jobs, but not seriously. I wasn't expecting to get anything. I was applying to jobs
00:20:19
Speaker
in all honesty, with the expectation that I would get rejected, but I wanted to get used to that rejected feeling so that by the time I really needed a job, it wasn't like heartbreaking, I was like used to it. So just like many of those other jobs I applied to this job that someone reached out about, I didn't really think I was gonna get it, didn't think much of it, and then I got an offer and I was super stoked.
00:20:45
Speaker
It's always those jobs you don't think much of. It's those jobs that you actually spend time writing a cover letter for. You're like, oh, this is going to be it. And then crickets. But that's the congratulations. And I remember when we met.
00:20:59
Speaker
back, I want to say earlier this year, you were doing a couple part-time jobs. So was this first job just one of the part-time jobs? Now that you have this first job, you finished the curriculum, what has that looked like since? Yeah, so that was actually a full-time job. Funny story, so backtrack a little bit. As I was just applying for jobs, trying to get myself used to being rejected,
00:21:28
Speaker
I think on an emotional level more than anything else. I got that job offer for a full-time job. And the same day I got a job offer for a part-time job. So I ended up accepting both. So I was working full-time. I needed a full-time job, obviously financially, but also for benefits and things like that. So it was really great to have, to be able to,
00:21:55
Speaker
finally put a job on my resume and have the security of a regular paycheck. It wasn't exactly in what I was hoping to do with my new technical knowledge, but it definitely taught me a lot of things that I'm still grateful for. So that's part of why I ended up taking the part-time job as well, because the part-time position had me
00:22:22
Speaker
working in a lot of the things that I saw myself working in down the road and was really excited to work in. But it was only a part time position, didn't offer very much money. It was more for the learning experience. So I took the full time job because I needed a job and it was in data, even if it wasn't exactly the specific field that I wanted to be in. And I took the
00:22:47
Speaker
part-time internship, mostly just for the experience. That's great. And quite bold to take two jobs, well, one and a half jobs at once, but it's kind of nice. Like, I mean, hopefully they're more stable than the others, but if one shoe falls, you already have another one. Yeah. And it was definitely a lot. Again, I'm privileged to be in the position that I was able to do that. I know not everyone can, but I ended up
00:23:14
Speaker
really, really enjoying my part-time internship. And I guess falling in love a little bit with the startup pace, though I say that with a bit of irony, because there are certainly days that I'm not grateful for it. And just the full-time job I got as my first job was a very large company. It was a big system. It had a lot of processes and procedures. And that was very helpful.
00:23:45
Speaker
for a certain part of my learning journey, but it did sometimes feel like there was a limit to how much of an impact I could have on things. There was a lot of red tape around things and I couldn't just go out and build a new website for the company or do anything like that. It would be crazy. And working for a startup,
00:24:11
Speaker
There were just so many opportunities to make an impact, to build, to create. And I really missed that part of a job of the creative part. So anyways, my part-time internship eventually turned into
From Internship to Full-time
00:24:30
Speaker
a full-time role. So I left that first full-time role, which was in consumer data analytics.
00:24:38
Speaker
Um, and I took a full-time position at my former partner and internship and that is where I am today.
00:24:46
Speaker
And congratulations, because I remember the day you told me that, and you were very relieved. I can't imagine putting in all that work and finally getting that next step. What I would love to talk about next is just working in a startup. It's such a buzzword these days. People think, well, I don't know what people think, because I haven't spoken to every single person on the planet.
00:25:12
Speaker
I think there's this mysticism, there's this romanticism around startups when you're outside the industry. But let's hear what your startup is like. What's your day in and day out? Yeah, so I definitely understand that sort of romanticism about the startups. Like I said, I was drawn to them because of just how much impact I feel like I can have. There's a meme going around online right now that
00:25:41
Speaker
It's the Lion King with Simba and he's looking out at the fields and he says, working in a tech startup, everything the light touches is in your job description. And it's a joke, but it's like also some days it kind of feels true because if you reach out and touch something, you can go and work on it oftentimes. So it's,
00:26:09
Speaker
It's a great learning experience. It's really rewarding in a lot of ways, but it's not for some people. It can be sometimes a little chaotic and overwhelming, but at least for where I am in this stage of my career, that's I think where I want to be.
00:26:27
Speaker
That's fantastic. Yes. I don't think anyone's ever said startup without saying chaotic or any type of word like that. What do you think are the skills people who thrive in startups have? That's a great question. I think organization is key. There's always things are moving a mile a minute. So you really got to, you know,
00:26:56
Speaker
be mentally organized in what things you need to get done and what your priorities are. I think a go get it attitude is super important because you will have a lot of people asking you to do tasks, but you will also have a lot of tasks that no one's going to come and tell you or ask you to do them, but they just need to get done. So you just, you know, you see things that need to get taken care of, you go out, you take care of it, move on to the next thing.
00:27:27
Speaker
also just a little bit of grit because it can get a little tiring and it sometimes can get a little bit discouraging. Much like the job application process, there's a lot of trial and error in working in Starup and just putting your all into some small project that maybe completely flops on its side and
00:27:54
Speaker
doesn't manifest into anything, and then just having to really quickly pivot into something completely different and just put a ton of energy into that. And that's, I think, probably a lot of the day-to-day of a startup is just trying something new, putting your all into it, and then if it doesn't work, trying something else.
00:28:14
Speaker
on to the next, very agile, absolutely. So I think a lot of people who come from boot camps and other traditional forms of education, they want to get right into startups. And I know that wasn't right for me, but I often wonder with startups, even when I was looking at jobs, they typically wanted people with a lot of experience.
00:28:38
Speaker
that were kind of a Swiss army knife as far as skill sets, they could do a couple different things. Did you find that that was the case? Obviously you got hired a startup pretty soon after your bootcamp. So what do you think people should kind of consider coming out of the bootcamp and getting into a startup or wanting to get into a startup?
00:29:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think that oftentimes that's true. They do look for people with a lot of experience. I think that a great way to get your foot in the door to start up is to do something like I did, take an internship or a part-time or smaller role. And if you work really hard and you make a good impression, that may someday turn into a full-time position. Make sure that you've had very transparent conversations with people at that company before you bank on that happening, though.
00:29:29
Speaker
because it's by no means a given, obviously. Besides sort of taking these small experiences and expanding on them, I think there are definitely some startups out there that are willing to train. So take someone that's a little bit less experienced
00:29:55
Speaker
train them in the role. That can be really helpful for them if they want someone that's fresh and new and they want to sort of mold them to the position they're looking for. That can be really helpful for them. So that's something to keep a lookout for. If you're a person that needs a lot of guidance, it might not be the type of environment you thrive in because you don't always have someone looking over your shoulder.
00:30:25
Speaker
But if you're someone who works really well, just motivated by yourself and with very little direction on some days, then it's a great spot for you. Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's a great way to put it. At the end of the day, it just comes down to fit. Some people might thrive in an environment where it's chaotic and
00:30:52
Speaker
They try one thing, it fails, move on to the next, but some people might want to work at a larger company where they're focused on one specific part of the product and grow that way. So yeah, it sounds like it just really comes down to understanding what you want. Yeah, and I guess another one of the pros that comes out of that pace is I've learned little bits of so many different things that I never
00:31:22
Speaker
never really set out to learn about. I've worked on our web page. I never really thought I would get into any of that. I've worked in a lot of community building. I've worked in very highly technical things and much less technical things. So it's interesting to see all the different sort of skills I pick up along the way. I never really know what I'm going to be doing next. And that's really exciting.
00:31:45
Speaker
Absolutely. And with that, I'd love to know, is there anything different that you've been doing in your job that Springboard didn't not necessarily prepare you for, but something you didn't expect that you had to learn? I know you just said the website, but is there anything else? I think so. For folks that are interested in or taking the data science track, I think
00:32:11
Speaker
The data science track is exactly that. It's data science. If you're looking to get into machine learning and AI, data science can be a great way to start, but you will need to do a lot of exploration outside of Springboard if you want to get into something like machine learning or AI because it is just a very
00:32:33
Speaker
I don't want to say different field, but it's a, a whole nother field on top of, on top of data science. So, um, if that is your goal, I would suggest, you know, preparing accordingly for it. Fantastic. I mean, I think that's great advice. Um, and I know in our conversations, you've said that science, no one's really a data scientist. There's so many different branches you can go into. Could you elaborate a little bit more on that?
00:33:02
Speaker
Yeah, so there are definitely folks that have the title, Data Scientist. I think that it's a very misunderstood title. I think that
00:33:15
Speaker
Uh, what data science means in a given, and from one company to the next can be completely different. I think that there's a spectrum of, or maybe not even a spectrum, but like to sort of like a heat map of like different data roles, whether it be data scientist, data analyst, data engineer. Um, and probably a lot of other things I can't, I'm not thinking of, um, even, you know, machine learning engineer.
00:33:42
Speaker
that overlap in a lot of ways and differ in a lot of ways. And there's so many different ways you could draw sort of the boundaries between each of them that wouldn't necessarily be incorrect. And there aren't
00:33:55
Speaker
because they're all such new positions, there aren't really sort of well-defined roles. And so I think that there is definitely sort of like a stereotypical data scientist. I think probably not too many data scientists are solely relegated to those tasks. And I think it's really important that if you are looking to
00:34:22
Speaker
get a data scientist role that looks like a specific thing that you clarify that with your potential hiring manager or the folks who are interviewing with
00:34:35
Speaker
when you're applying to jobs because their idea of what a data scientist or a data analyst or a data engineer looks like could be very different from your own. Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. I see that a little bit in UX, but even more so in data science, it sounds like you really need to read the job spec to really understand what you're going to be doing and if it's something you want to do. Totally. Yeah, and some of that boils down to just, you know,
00:35:06
Speaker
sometimes non-technical folks are doing the hiring. So maybe they don't know the nitty gritty differences between like, do you know, you know, uh, static language versus like, uh, you know, dynamic object oriented programming language, things like that, that. So part of it is just that highly technical aspect. And another part of it is just, these are all new concepts and they're constantly evolving. And the industry I think is just struggling to keep up with that.
00:35:36
Speaker
For sure, yeah, and tech is just moving at a mile a minute, understatement of the day. With that being said, with everything going so fast, where do you see you going, Abby,
Future Plans and Departure Announcement
00:35:49
Speaker
in the future? You're here now. You've turned your part-time job into a full-time job. What's next for you? For me, the biggest goal on my site is to keep upping my technical skills.
00:36:06
Speaker
have really, really loved learning how to code and, and learning how to build models and, and deploy them and see all the crazy things that they can do, especially with the rise of, you know, generative, generative AI lately and LLMs and LM ops. Um, so that's where I hope to keep building. Um, I have sort of.
00:36:34
Speaker
Deep in me, I have this very creative person. And so I think the way I get my creativity out in my job is just by building these different things. Sometimes it manifests in marketing or other designy things. But I love building models and seeing what you can do with them. And that's where I like to take things. Fantastic. And I know you have one last bit of information to share with everybody.
00:37:01
Speaker
I do, so very much in line with the ups and downs and twists and turns of a startup life, I will actually no longer be able to co-host this podcast because I will be taking on a few more responsibilities in my job.
00:37:22
Speaker
Unfortunately, I'm not going to have quite enough time, but I will be an avid listener and supporter and I will be tuning in very often and I can't wait to see where you, Alyssa, take this podcast.
00:37:36
Speaker
I can't wait to see where I take it as well. It's going to be interesting. We'll see what happens. But in a very serious note, it has been a pleasure getting to know you, Abby, and thank you for sharing your story. And I only think great things will come from you. And from you as well. Thank you. Yes. I feel like we've just gotten started, and we're always saying goodbye. But you know what? Goodbyes aren't for forever. Is that a saying? I don't even know. We'll make it a saying.
00:38:05
Speaker
But with that, again, thank you so much, Abby, for all of your work behind the scenes. You recruited a lot of amazing people we're going to be talking to on this podcast. So again, thanks. And if you have any questions for Abby or I, please email us at alumnipodcast at springboard.com.