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A Golden Era For Pubs - But Can It Last?
152 Plays7 hours ago
“People attract people. It’s that simple. Nobody wants to sit in an empty room.”
If you've visited The Lincoln – a 171-years-and-counting-old corner pub on the edge of Melbourne's CBD – at any point in the past decade, there's a good chance you'll have enjoyed the experience. After all, as we like to put it: they do everything excellently, all the time – and the team has a bulging trophy cabinet that suggests we're not alone.
As they prepare to showcase the Tasmanian beer scene once again for the Pint of Origin festival, we sat down with Iain Ling, who bought the pub with wife Stella in 2014, for a chat about what goes into running a great pub and creating the sort of community that has evolved at The Lincoln.
We also delve into the backstory of one of the Melbourne hospo scene's true characters – one that took in club promotion, fine dining and high-end retail in England before he moved to Australia, where he ran Movida Aqui prior to becoming a publican.
It's a conversation that goes as deep as it does wide, covering Tetris ninjas, kissing frogs and the challenges of surviving and thriving in the industry on the one hand, to the joy that comes from packing a venue with punters in what he believes is a golden era for pubs, albeit one that's threatened by sky-high taxes and rocketing prices.
Before Iain shares his hard-earned wisdom, Will and James reflect on the glorious career in beer of Evan Cray, who this month switched craft beer for Tabasco after being a central, yet humble, figure in the rise of beer in Melbourne since he was old enough to drink it.
We also look forward to Pint of Origin, which launches on May 9, as well as the festival's "Pining for a taste of home" competition that started this week.
Start of segments:
- 9:14 – Iain Ling Part 1
- 39:27 – Iain Ling Part 2
Relevant links:
- The Lincoln
- Pint of Origin 2025
- Pining For A Taste Of Home Competition
- Craft Beer Heroes: Evan Cray
- Klippakan
- Nominate a good beer citizen
- Nominate a Bluestone Yeast Brewery of the Month
To find out more about supporting the show or otherwise partnering with The Crafty Pint, contact craig@craftypint.com.
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Transcript
Introduction to Crafty Pine Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to the Crafty Pine podcast. I'm Will. And I'm James. And we're chatting, I guess, during a week in which there's been a bit of a loss to the beer industry, but I guess a good loss or a positive loss, if you can care to explain.
Evan Cray's Career Shift
00:00:17
Speaker
Yes. Well, beer's loss is Tabasco's gain. um Evan Cray, who's a good mate of mine and many in the Australian beer industry will know, particularly around Victoria, has decided to hang up his boots in the beer industry at the moment. He's most recently worked at Bentspoke.
00:00:31
Speaker
He was at Square Cake for a long time. I first met him when he was at Bridge Road all those years ago. And, um, i really enjoyed it because i know him quite well but I didn't know the earlier parts of his career when he was working at the Belgian beer cafe when there was a lot of people there who sort of went on to have really important careers in the Australian beer industry
Advice for Beer Industry Professionals
00:00:49
Speaker
as well.
00:00:49
Speaker
Yeah we had but I think a broad and wide-ranging chat with Evan going right back to his start of his days at the Belgian beer cafe beer deluxe and given it was Evan he sort of put a lot of time and thought it into the approach as I'm sure you did as well And sort of went through all the different phases of his career, the beers that were iconic through his career and and offered a lot of insight. And I think and sort of wisdom and guidance and to people who might be doing similar things to him in beer, which I think is at the heart of what, you know, he's always been about. And like you said, you know, with chatting earlier, the feedback and the response online, people, it's not just people going, oh, what a great guy. They've really appreciated the sort of, I guess, the thought he's put into this this article as well.
00:01:29
Speaker
yeah Yeah, absolutely. And um yeah, I think it shows through it that there's so many reps in in the comments that ah say, oh, we'll miss Evan and all these kind of things. i I'm very lucky. I get a lot of reps turn up at my door and drop off beer. And um particularly with younger ones, I feel like there there's been many times where someone's like, oh, I just got off the phone to Evan Cray. Actually, we're talking about this. Like he's He's always been incredibly generous with his time for other people in the industry who technically are competitors, I guess, but he's always yeah really wanted to lift beer up and that's what he's been about for his entire adult working life. and A regular member of our blind tasting panels, which we haven't done for a while, hopefully he's still available next time we do get one going. Well, hopefully you can arrange a Tabasco one for us.
00:02:12
Speaker
Hot sauce blind tasting. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, so best luck ever in the new role.
Pint of Origin Event Preview
00:02:18
Speaker
In terms sort of, I guess, what's sort of looming large for us at the minute, or guess has been all consuming um and to an extent for the last few weeks is Pint of Origin kicks off next Friday.
00:02:28
Speaker
um So we're really sort of ramping up things on that front. um We'll be unveiling all the prizes to do with the crawls this year for people who complete so and any of the mini crawls or also complete all 23 venues over the 10 days.
00:02:41
Speaker
um some A remarkable number of people seem to manage that every year, which is quite Amazing. um We've also got a competition running at the minute, but more on that later. I guess the the biggest change since we spoke last week um concerns Beer Mash. A change. it's It's some bad news, but hopefully wrapped up in some very good news. So unfortunately, Beer Mash can't get their beers from Scandinavia in time, um not for lack of trying or not really for lack of trying on their distributor on the other end. It's just a very challenging environment at the moment to ship.
00:03:12
Speaker
beer around the world. um It's very challenging environment, sort of full stop up in the world, isn't it? if we If we could tell the full story of bringing together partner of origin this year, touch wood, it does all come together. i think it'd be quite the tale.
00:03:23
Speaker
But I had a chat with and one of the guys from BMH a few weeks ago, he goes, I don't know we're going to get our shipment in time, and then they thought they had it. And then was it last Tuesday or Wednesday? <unk> Like, it's not going to be here in time. what What can we do? We still want part of the program. And so we had a bit of brainstorming with the suggestion of pills of origin, pet of origin, like pet gnat. And then ah David came back with the the concept plant of origin, and we all love a pun. um So what does plant of origin mean then, Will?
00:03:51
Speaker
So they'll be pouring beers made with fruit or vegetables, basically, which is very beer mash, but also very Scandinavian. They'd already lined up a few collaborations on some sort of heavily fruited sours and those kind of things. So it works out. They've got a pretty broad mix of beers they can choose from and it does an impact on the regional thing. it means they can still be involved and also those Scandinavian beers will turn up at some point as well. So if you miss out, you can drink them at a later date. the Pint of Origin Coda for 2025. So if you haven't done this already, jump on the Pint of Origin and website, verysimplepintoforigin.com.
00:04:27
Speaker
You can download your digital passport now, which will allow you to collect stamps as you go around, get bonus drinks. um enter competitions, the prize draws, etc, etc. um There's a whole bunch of sort of fun reels and hitting our socials at the minute. We've enlisted some special guests to put some of them together as well. We've been having a good chuckle to some of those, which has been great.
Interview with Ian Ling
00:04:46
Speaker
um But yeah, I guess also that sort of segues nicely into this week's main guest, um Ian Ling, who's the the co-owner ah of um the Lincoln in Carlton, one of our favourite pubs in Australia.
00:04:58
Speaker
And they've been hosting, be hosting Tasmanian Brewers for the seventh year running this year. um And we sat down with him at the pub for a pretty um fascinating and broad ranging chat.
00:05:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I think anyone who's met him will know he's ah he's quite a character. So the Lincoln, it's in Carlton, but it's kind of right on the city's doorstop. very popular place. Lingy is a classic publican. So we might put a bit of a language warning on this episode that there is a fair bit of swearing. Well, he asked early on, are we okay to swear? We're like, yes. And then it's sort of escalated from there. Yeah. So maybe don't listen to this episode if you got children in the car.
00:05:34
Speaker
um But he has a fascinating career as well. He's worked in sort of fine dining, but casual fine dining. So really fun. those kind of things. ah He was also a personal shopper to the Queen. We really tried to get that out here on the episode, but unfortunately, that might have to wait for another time because I'd love to know what that actually involves.
00:05:52
Speaker
And yeah, the other slight thing is there is a bit of an echo later on in the episode. We don't really know why. I think that's the list of sort of technical issues with the podcast that we can't ascertain. But yeah, it's only for what, a couple of minutes later the interview? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Lingie's voice sort of echoes a little bit.
00:06:09
Speaker
I don't want to spook listeners or anything, but we did record this in 150 year old pub. So I think it was probably a ghost on camera with us. So maybe maybe again, not having the children around, but also maybe don't listen to this episode at night. Yeah, but i essentially, you know, there's a lot of fun in the chat.
00:06:25
Speaker
You know, Ian is a you know a real larger than life character, but also he's there's some really great insight, not just into what it's been like running, working in hospital and trying to run a successful business over the last you know five years in particular,
00:06:38
Speaker
but just, you know, what it takes to go from working in hospo to running a business and taking, you know, putting taking
Challenges in the Pub Industry
00:06:45
Speaker
that gamble. um And yeah, it's really, he's he's got a lot of very, I guess, quite deep insights and very sort of thoughtful things to offer ah' to anyone who's either, you know, interested in going going out to pubs. And i think that's one of the other things as well. He talks about how he really feels pubs are going through this golden era at the minute, but how there's the threats against surviving pubs you know as a publican and running successful pub are only getting greater. um So yeah, it's it's it's kind of some real positive stuff and also some kind of warning signs for the future.
00:07:15
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So I enjoy the chat. um If you want to shout out some positive stuff in the industry, make sure you get your, have you done a Rowling's nominations in. And also if you want to tell us which breweries you love, you can also submit your Bluestone Brewery of the Month.
00:07:28
Speaker
and Indeed you can. um So yeah, so we're back with Ian after a short break. um Before then, Will? ah Make sure you like, subscribe and leave us a review. Cheers. Cheers. Are you missing that taste of home?
00:07:42
Speaker
That perfect pint that takes you right back. Well you're in luck because from May 9 to 18, Pine of Origin will be showcasing beers from more than 200 breweries from four continents at 23 of Melbourne's best pubs, bars and breweries.
00:07:55
Speaker
To send you on your way, you could win a pint from the venue representing your home country, state or region in the Pining for a Taste of Home competition. Simply share your best photos of you pining for a taste of home before the festival starts.
00:08:09
Speaker
As well as a pint at the venue of your choice, the winner will also receive $100 voucher so they can visit more venues after the festival ends thanks to our friends at Beer Belts Victoria. It's free and easy to enter and all about celebrating the first sip of nostalgia.
00:08:23
Speaker
For more information, visit pintoforigin.com. Submissions close Wednesday, May 7th at six pm The winner will be announced on Thursday, May 8th. Pint of Origin kicks off on May 9, taking over 23 great Melbourne venues, pubs and bars.
00:08:39
Speaker
More than 800 beers will be hitting taps, featuring brewery showcases, beer launches, Australian exclusives and more. Plus there's a Boilermaker hub at Whiskey and Ailment, beer cocktails at Captain Melville and plenty of beer and food pairings.
00:08:53
Speaker
The best way to enjoy the festival is to grab a digital passport from pintoforigin.com. It's your ticket to bonus drinks and prizes. Then grab some mates, check out the five suggested mini crawls and hit the road, pavement or tram tracks.
00:09:06
Speaker
Ready to travel the world of beer from May 9 to 18. Cheers. Cheers.
00:09:16
Speaker
welcome to the podcast. Hello, Will. How are you going? Which one you again? Well, Ian, we're sort of at the Lincoln. We're in the Lincoln private dining room. Yeah, we're in the Lincoln Arms. Lincoln Arms. the Should we be Lincoln Arms?
00:09:32
Speaker
Sorry, that was terrible. Anyway, your pub in Carlton. I guess you to tell us a bit about the place, how you came to say ownership and you know the story of what you do here, I guess.
00:09:42
Speaker
ah Yeah. Do you want like the bridge version where I lied, stole and cheated to get my way here? There we go, done, next question. oh We set ourselves up and then basically lied to the bank and told them were gonna buy a house.
00:09:59
Speaker
And then we bought the pub, handshake deal, and we got it on ah on a on a home loan rather than a commercial loan. This is you and Stella?
00:10:10
Speaker
Yep. This is the approved version? yeah like Yeah. So we saves ourselves three points on our interest. i um but yeah we've had it now for 11 years like 2014 we came in and we've just kind of at the start there's a little bit of our confusion with what we wanted to do even though it may kind of make sense now but um yeah we've had it 11 years and it's it's gone from strength to strength we feel pretty fortunate to like have had all the stuff that we've had who've who've made it because you can't do anything by yourself as as you know and you like um and yeah we've
00:10:56
Speaker
Like we've grown a small business, medium-sized business now. ah know like We've only got 100 seats, but last Sunday we did 370 people for food all day, which is quite an achievement cause The site hasn't ever got any bigger, but like we've just turned into like Tetris Ninjas or like whatever it is its it to get us there. But now it's it's really good. And obviously that kind of in the challenging market that we all face.
00:11:29
Speaker
We're doing quite well. There's something to be very proud of. Can you tell us a little bit about what the pub was like when you took it over? Like it was operational and that kind of thing or had it been closed?
00:11:41
Speaker
No, was operationally empty, yes. um So let's... I don't want to bag out anyone who came before me because it's all part of... Because pubs are always there. Like, pubs are meant to be the centers of the community. And...
00:12:03
Speaker
The person before me just kind of fallen out of love with it or just got his offering wrong or whatever it was. And it just wasn't fit for purpose. It wasn't a pub. It was somebody else's vision of emptiness.
00:12:22
Speaker
And that's the nicest thing I could say. No, that's good. I came here a bit as a uni student, so now I'm wondering if there was something wrong with me. yeah No, no. You had to fill the emptiness. Yeah.
00:12:34
Speaker
I used to live around the corner, literally around the corner on Franklin Street. And I used to come in here and I used to sit on the front bar and just have pints on the Monday, which was my day off.
00:12:46
Speaker
Where the missus was at work. And there was never very many people here. Like I literally signed a heads of the agreement man before I went round the back of the bar.
00:13:00
Speaker
like that's not a good time yeah like there was too many rules there was too many this or that or whatever like i remember when we're doing um due diligence and a guy was like oh that table there can be this and i just distinctly remember looking at that table thinking it's fucking empty can we swear on this yes good and it's not worth anything if people aren't on it like if you need to like people that attract people it's really really simple nobody wants to sit in an empty room yeah so do whatever you can to like put people through your room
00:13:43
Speaker
Stick to guns, like stick to at your ethos, your whatever it is. Our pubs are really easy. Like your ethos should be have people here. Yeah. I mean, cause it turns the bones in the place both inside and out and it's like, a bones so but um but you know, it's a beautiful, there xleche but it's a beautiful looking pub outside and it's still a lot of the original fittings. Like it was a, you walk into it.
00:14:06
Speaker
This should, this is a pub that should work, especially where it is as well. so yeah you know you're 100 i do is somebody told me very early on like because every everybody departs with wisdom money ah but the one it's has always stuck with me someone was like change the outside so people know it's changed because people drive past it like and they might have had a bad experience there like the places like now we're what 172 years old 171 years two years old i'm seventy one years old That's a lot of people you can piss off or just give bad experiences to. you
00:14:41
Speaker
Like you need to jog the oh decision making. Oh, maybe something's different now. Like we could go there again. Like we've been in it here 11 years and people still are like, what, what, where, what is that?
00:14:58
Speaker
And you're like, yeah, please do come and like, I have that conversation 20, 30, 40 times a week and you've still got to convince people to come in. And like, well, arguably we're really, really quite busy, but you can never be too busy to like,
00:15:19
Speaker
chase down that new lead chase down that kind of please come on that let us show show you what we do um and it it never really stops like i don't we well we don't really go down that idea influence route where it's like oh
00:15:37
Speaker
I'm just dying for this pub. Like, i'm just I'm just obsessed with... Like, it's not really that kind of place, know mean? Like, you're not like those high-end kind of $7 million dollar fit outs or what have you. You're kind of like...
00:15:54
Speaker
oh that guy there i i associate with that person and that person goes oh well i went on the kid it was fucking really good yeah and like that person comes in and like even now he used to really really really annoying like oh this is actually really good it's like yeah i risked my entire fucking livelihood on being shit yeah yeah like i like like for us it like our core principles have always been and always will be good food good service this could be a good wine but make it accessible but make it as good as you can be for that price bracket so it's um
00:16:41
Speaker
It's really important for us to show people value for money. Like we literally argue over 50 cents a dollar on a dish or a bottle of wine or a pint of beer.
00:16:53
Speaker
Like, and like five or six people will be like, no, that's too much. Or two people will be like, no, I think we need to do this. right and it's it's important like on that point it's important to take your team with you so they understand why we're doing what we're doing how much you're charging why we're charging it and the stories that other staff members can communicate why we're doing what we do yeah well it's interesting i'm with the context of that thinking about some conversations i've had with people going oh you should go to the lincoln you know want to go to a nice pub and
00:17:28
Speaker
there is sometimes a bit of reticence and maybe they have been that previous generation. And, you know, you say about doing everything well. I'm always like, the way I try and put across the way feel about it without blowing smoke up your ass is you just do everything excellently, whether it is beer, wine, food service.
00:17:43
Speaker
ah yeah But you still kind of say that to people, it's no, you really should go and check it out. so Yeah, arguably we're not arguably we're not like a traditional Australian pub. Mm-hmm.
00:17:55
Speaker
where like 10, 12 years ago when we were like kind of working out what we were gonna do, I remember saying like, there's always a compromise in a pub. Like the beer might be good, the footy might be on, the schnitzer might be good, the wine list might be good.
00:18:14
Speaker
but there was never a, uh, uh, a wholesome product where it could be purpose can be really good. You don't have to neglect one element or two or three elements of it.
00:18:29
Speaker
And even, even well well now I think with that kind of, Because we've grown what in the last 11 years, like we've seen a rise of ABC, we've seen a rise of the Maryvale group, we've seen a rise of... And the thing about pubs is there's no barriers to entry.
00:18:47
Speaker
So you can go there and everybody's... but What? It's a public house.
Independent Pubs and Community Role
00:18:55
Speaker
Everybody's meant to be welcomed. But like with it with the big, let's call them chain brands now, like...
00:19:03
Speaker
those guys have signatures they have themes they have common things running through them for like a small really good independent pub like the marquee lawn like all of those guys
00:19:22
Speaker
There's a massive space for it because people can still associate with us. They're not cut out could cookie cutter pubs. They have communities. They have soul. They have things that are different.
00:19:37
Speaker
They might have the same owners, but they still have what is essential to their local community, which is an open door and a welcoming thing.
00:19:49
Speaker
And did you've been in pubs before, obviously we'll talk a bit about you. I've never been in a pub before I bought one. Funny you should say that. and ah I've always worked in um arguably When we were looking around, was at the MoVita group and we were looking around for sites for a long time, like maybe two years, maybe probably longer.
00:20:19
Speaker
and um we just like we call it kissing frogs you gotta kiss a lot of frogs but like i could walk around the side with you i could walk around side with you well and we were both doing different things like i remember walking around the market alone and i was like oh who the fuck would do this and then the boys took it and just smashed it But i I couldn't see that vision, but they walked and they're like, this is what we're going to do.
00:20:49
Speaker
And you you see that a lot. Like I saw a lot more potential here than they did because I know they walked around it as well. I know other people that we know walked around it and I was like, I know exactly what I'm going to do.
00:21:01
Speaker
I'm not going to change much, but going to change the product. Like aesthetically wise, but we, well, we didn't have the money to change it. We're still aiming for it 11 years later like because we didn't have the money for a fit app.
00:21:15
Speaker
Just a bit of polish of the wood and on you go. Yeah, orange oil. is oh But it's one of those things. It's like sometimes you're walking. The greatest thing about restaurants, pubs, like everybody has a little tweak on what they their vision is and those that's what makes them so personal, that's why you have your favorite.
00:21:40
Speaker
Like, there's this whole plethora of YouTube things, there's like, give me your top five, right? And they're all different. Like, there's very little convergence and it's really cool to see. And it's not like, give me your top five McDonald's. It's like, oh, well, don't need me to ask.
00:22:01
Speaker
The one 20 minutes away that goes my Uber eats quicker to me. Like pubs have, restaurants have individuality, like different staff, different everything. And that's why that's why you have your favorites.
00:22:17
Speaker
Like your kids have different favorites to you. But like you still go there because your kids like it. I stand up crying underneath the table when I last time brought him to your place.
00:22:28
Speaker
buts yeah That's because hadn't fed him much earlier in the day. yeah and then had to take them in the kitchen give my eyes cream rental and and extra the fries but like that's that's part of what restaurants are pubs are um the first line of our business plan says the pub is the center of the community if you don't have your community it's nuts like we have regulars who will be like oh you're new
00:22:59
Speaker
And like, i on you guys, like get interviewed three, four, five, six times. like Ticket of approval, you're allowed back next week. uh-huh a hundred percent because they have ownership like we've we've taken regulars to award ceremonies and we're like yeah go get it yeah and i can't we've had regulars on stage going bought the lincoln's that's really cool because they have ownership in it they have they're there for your journey they they communicate your message probably better than you communicate your message
00:23:30
Speaker
yeah Because that's what's like, people sign up for that. Oh, I went to this place, this happened, this happened, this happened. And that's, that's best marketing is word of mouth.
00:23:44
Speaker
In terms of how you first went about building that community then, you said you came to a place that was ah effectively an empty vessel. Obviously, you know, you changed the products over time, brought good staff in, cetera, et cetera. But were there particular steps it took to actually bring the first people in and then get them to bring more people in?
00:24:01
Speaker
yeah but Yeah, don't be a cunt. And stand in the bar every day and try and talk to everybody. Because like those 12, 18 months period where people just didn't fucking understand what we were trying to do.
00:24:17
Speaker
Like those feed reviews that were like, Why you doing this in a pub like this? What are you doing? And it's like, look, it's like, it's not that complicated.
00:24:28
Speaker
We're going to be good. We're going to have nice things that you can buy for a lot cheaper than you can five minutes in that direction because they're paying city rent.
00:24:39
Speaker
Oh, and
00:24:42
Speaker
people just the start people just didn't get it and then we started to win awards and like giving these accolades which is really really amazing all of a sudden it turned around and it was like oh shit we're busy yeah now like if you read like press releases like or you go like a pub it's like oh well it's just got good bones we're not trying to reinvent the wheel like
00:25:15
Speaker
like I come out of places that have been open for like in in England like for a long, long time. And I didn't want to have to reinvent my product. like We sat in a pretty long lease.
00:25:27
Speaker
And I didn't want to have to reinvent our product every three, four, five years. And I was like, well, this is going be really good. And that 100% what I know now, naivety.
00:25:38
Speaker
Because it just sounded like i was being dickhead. but like in my head i was like if we just do really good food really good wine people will come back because that consistent undertow if they're like oh do you know what it it might be a little bit more but whatever it was wasn't frozen and that was fresh like the garnish was amazing like all of those things go and like and now like we're what 11 years deep and
00:26:13
Speaker
we have an amazing amazing beautiful clientele they could be earning 70 000 a year but everybody's welcome but they know that there's a space for them here like with the kind of cost of living crisis and of this all of the bad news that we hear all of the time like if you say like a named restaurant it's like oh let's go for dinner let's go to this place like i this isn't a slight on any of those places naturally like you have this like financial figure that comes to the head and you're like oh i don't think i can do that because you've got you gotta buy your kid shit you gotta pay the rent you gotta do this you gotta do this but pub is a great equalizer
00:27:06
Speaker
and you can go to the pub we can meet up for two pints and then probably bartender will give you a shot or you have a shot and then you have another pint and then all of a sudden you're reaching for a menu and then you're reaching for a wine list but you don't sign up at the start you don't have that oh i don't i don't think i can afford to go there and you might end up spending a similar amount to what you would the name restaurant But these now, because we have so few barriers to entry, it seems like a just a really good level playing field.
00:27:44
Speaker
yeah But also like pubs now are cool. Like 10, 15 years ago, pubs went, oh, let's go to this pub. You know what?
00:27:57
Speaker
But like we seem to be having a day in the sun. Like I honestly believe it's a golden age for pubs. yeah Do you think that's because of consumers or the the offering so good? Like, like what do you think's driving that?
00:28:11
Speaker
As with anything, like, I think it's a combination of a hundred different things. Like, but I think... if we are offering offering things like i think that offering into the pubs have changed so much over last five six eight years like you couldn't go into a pub x amount time ago and get caviar you couldn't go in there and get like a grass-fed steak you couldn't go in there and get 200 bottle of dollar bottle of wine
00:28:41
Speaker
You could go in there and get a really good $60 bottle of one because whoever it was was possibly paying $6 for Like, like from our our side of the industry there's this massive massive thing where our commitment to better products has welcomed more people in and people are like oh fuck we could go there like they're welcome for families like it doesn't matter if like there's kids at the table there's coloring papers with pencils and blah blah blah all these things like
00:29:17
Speaker
I think it's just a really like it's come up to the bit where pubs are now an acceptable like nobody is I don't want to go there. As long as you pick the right pub, obviously.
00:29:31
Speaker
Like, I know, like, ah like if there's if you're going out for a family meal, everybody can get on board. yeah You said before, for you, it's about doing just all the elements well.
00:29:44
Speaker
And you're obviously having good staff as well. And you've had a number of people here. you know The faces have been around forever, it seems. They're part of the furniture here. Are you calling my staff old? Probably not as old as me. But then you sort of look at the flip side of it. If it is, don't know, it's never that simple. But why do you think so many pubs get it wrong?
00:30:05
Speaker
They don't get it wrong. It's just... what are the One of the biggest things, and you guys probably hear this all the time, like, people are like, I've always wanted to own a pub.
00:30:16
Speaker
But, like, people come in from, like, different industries, different walks life. Like, they haven't, like, I've been doing this since I was 16 years old. Not pubs, but hospitality.
00:30:30
Speaker
Just because you like having a good time doesn't mean that you can run a pub. If you look at, like I was talking to a guy last night in finance and like we were having this conversation about P&Ls.
00:30:42
Speaker
He's like, I've got six lines on my P&L. And I was like, my P&L's like this. I've got 75. I don't write my P&Ls. I know what my strengths are.
00:30:56
Speaker
But I've got 75 lines on my P&L because we have to pay for it. yeah TVs, we have to pay for this, we have to pay for this, we have to pay for this, we have to pay for this. There's so many on costs. And if you come from ah different industry and you think that this is what you want to do, you might just have your priorities in the wrong spot.
00:31:16
Speaker
You might spend too much on your chairs or your lighting or your interior decorator. You might spend too much on a certain product that you want to sell and other people don't want to buy it. And it, like, that's just,
00:31:30
Speaker
revenue waiting because to be realized it it looks from the outside really easy because everybody's having fun but it's not easy you still have to be very critical you still have to be like oh this isn't work this month and you have to do this regularly you have to sit down and be critical of your decisions And a lot of the time it's like eating shit and walking it back.
00:31:55
Speaker
Like one of the big things I say to my guys is like, we'll give it a go, but you have to be okay with walking it back. Don't be too attached. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's no idea is a bad idea unless you do it for too long.
00:32:11
Speaker
Yeah. but so walk it back oh this didn't work and then you have to work out if you've invent they say you've spent four thousand dollars a certain product range and it's not working you can't just have that there for an indefinite amount time you have to work out how to get it out the building if you can't sell it for traditional methods so you have to get it out and it move on and then work out new path But also sometimes one of the guys will be like, oh, I've got this idea. And you're like, that won't fucking work.
00:32:47
Speaker
And it goes off. And you're like, I'm eating shit for breakfast. But that's that's what pu i' pu because pubs are.
Ian Ling's Career Insights
00:32:58
Speaker
We're not going after Mission Stars or whatever it is.
00:33:01
Speaker
You can't have that. Trial and error. Yeah, that period of experiment. As long as you're wanting to go distant at work and walk it back ah when it's not financially risky for you. Which is awesome. Which is also why you get 100 different demographics in the pub at any time.
00:33:24
Speaker
You talked before about your you've been involved in this this in some way since you were 16. Can you tell us a bit about your career? I mean, you mentioned Moveda, even before that, I know you like the Queen's personal masseuse or something like that.
00:33:38
Speaker
but ah you' but you've you've But you've worked in retail, you've worked in various roles in hospital before pubs. Is that right? Yeah. i I grew up in Liverpool. i got into role of glass collecting when I was 15, 16 years old.
00:33:55
Speaker
Got into it ah and then got into like club promotions and and things like that. And then went to university in Leeds. um After that, kind of wanted to take it more seriously, like restaurants and stuff.
00:34:11
Speaker
I fell into a job at a place called The Pool Court, which had a Michelin star. when I couldn't spell Michelin star i didn't know what it was and it was it was a real eye opener I didn't i I really didn't enjoy it and then I started working at a brasserie called uh room which was it was quite forward-thinking for its time and I I was like don't really like what I'm doing at uni I'm gonna take this seriously so I moved back to Liverpool for six or nine months ah so all this stuff was happening while you were uni in leeds working in the michelin star place and sort of let's not say i was at uni i was enrolled yeah yeah in leeds back to basics here or yeah i used to work for back to basics there you go yeah there you go probably at the same time oh yeah spoke to dave the other other day he's uh he's doing well um and then i started interviewing for for big joints like
00:35:09
Speaker
the the flashy joints. i But I worked out that what I like doing, what i I do do well is kind of fast, smart, casual.
00:35:21
Speaker
It's like not Michelin star stuff, but cool i can sting you for 120 and it's it's gonna be expensive but it's gonna be fun and i can say fucking bugger you know what i know so i work for some japanese venues and then i work for
00:35:43
Speaker
a place called Fortnum and Mason's, which James loves telling the story about. ah And then I moved to Australia. and a But it's all part of the learning curve of what you do. Like, nobody gets it right first. Well, very few people get it right first time.
00:36:00
Speaker
ah moved to Australia and I landed on my feet with... probably the best job definitely the best bosses i've ever had which were frank and andy at mobita who i still talk to a couple of times a week um and i started looking around for a place like back home, like you don't really, you aren't really still with the confidence that you can open your own place or the financial ability.
00:36:27
Speaker
But here, like people are like, yeah, you could do this, you can do this. And that was a mental barrier in itself. um And we we bought the pub in 2014.
00:36:40
Speaker
And it seems to be working out so far, and but we've got a really good lease. Like if you do want to open your own joint, yeah get advice from people who know about leases and make sure you're not paying too much rent and your compound interest and like a lot of things.
00:37:00
Speaker
So you can be set up for success. It doesn't matter how busy you are in the first six months. You have to be busy in six years. You have to be busy and like, and you have to have a sustainable product, which is really fucking important, which which is what people don't tell you.
00:37:17
Speaker
like all those people are like oh you can do this because you're a great waiter a great barman a great chef like you still need to learn how to run a business the step up is crazy big but you've also got to go a self-learning um curve which is learning to trust yourself learning to believe in yourself saying no when everybody else is saying yes or saying yes when everyone else is saying no um and it's it's it's a much bigger step, which is why a lot of places fail because they've listened too much or they haven't been prepared enough. ah
00:37:57
Speaker
Like, it's really quite hard. um But you can easy you can't do it if you want to do it. But the sacrifices are huge. Fantastic. Seems like perfect time to take break.
00:38:10
Speaker
Cheers.
00:38:13
Speaker
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00:38:37
Speaker
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00:38:55
Speaker
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00:39:06
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00:39:20
Speaker
k a n dot com don a you today
00:39:28
Speaker
Welcome Lingy. Part of the reason we wanted to have you on is because we're on the eve of Pined Origin. Oh, man, I'm so excited. Do you want to tell us a little little bit about what you do for it? It's Christmas for pubs, man.
00:39:42
Speaker
yeah Christmas for pubs. It's just a really good way of showcasing
00:39:51
Speaker
what pubs are good for. Like... Like beer's a great equalizer. Like you don't have, I don't mean to say in a bad way wine lankers, but wine's a bit fucking cork dorky.
00:40:03
Speaker
Like it's a bit of a click. But beer, everybody can do it. Everybody can get into it. And like we've been doing it, what, seven years now, I think?
00:40:14
Speaker
We literally have regulars that only come for a pint of origin. but they're really excited about it and like like I remember James just like oh can you do a kind of origin and I was like nah nah nah um but then Tasmania became wow available um and but Tasmania fits with what we do at the pub really well like that was my pitch to you but I'd love to know how long you thought about it um
00:40:47
Speaker
But like it's it fits with like our thing of like local scenes, done well, all of this stuff. and we did it and like we honestly it could have gone one of two ways and it went the way where it just took us by surprise and it was fucking awesome um and now like people like oh you're you're the tasmanian pope like we we'll get an email in september going why don't you have more tasmanian beers on i thought you were doing tasmanian beers is like no it's for 10 days mate
00:41:23
Speaker
which is which is amazing because it means that what we all do is working. oh um remember it coming in towards the end of that first week and i think you've been sleeping on the floor in the pub and you were just like no i don't eat your cheese i don't eat cheese because it was in the fridge in the bar i hate you yeah i i was just supposed to like choking you out i remember because it just it's like it genuinely just took us by surprise like the communities
00:41:55
Speaker
vigor for the product and like and it's not like the weird beers it's like beers that should be more accessible like we get like three x from and and people were literally because we've already got 12 taps it's not like a car in cellars or like somewhere where you've got 45 taps and you're pouring all the beers all the time so like we have these blackboards that say these are all the beers we've got and then on the tv above the bar we have watched live and you have people coming in literally every day going it's not one yet
00:42:29
Speaker
I just have a part this and then they fuck off. And then they come back the next day and they're like, it's not on here. have a part of this and then they fuck off. And then when whatever beer is that they want,
00:42:43
Speaker
they buy a season ticket. It's insane. Like, it's crazy. Like, but it's amazing because it brings people together. And after all the shit that we've been through in our industry, like it's really cool to see people coming together again.
00:42:59
Speaker
It's interesting to us person credit day after day, what wanting a certain beer. The flip side of that, I've been in here on you know one of the busier nights, maybe a Friday night, on you know whatever. And by the time you've gone from one round to go back to the next, you've changed three free taps.
00:43:12
Speaker
Because it's just you're almost like some the taps just seem to be open and you just... Yeah, yeah we we don't like giving you what you want. um but that's that's just what the project is like we've got like maybe three or four stable taps which don't change very often but everything else is all up for grabs and we don't have any tap contracts or anything like that and we get to support people like seller's grave people like the mill people like all those cool guys like but also like we're not
00:43:46
Speaker
are very like kind of hoppy centric, oh, they've got this on and it's $45 or $20 or like we still have a pub for everybody, but there's always one or two taps that are really interesting for the people who want to do that.
00:44:02
Speaker
Like the tap plan for us is part of our offering, it's not our offering, which I personally like because it makes us accessible for everybody.
00:44:14
Speaker
It's interesting what you said about often it's not crazy beers that people are coming from even during pint of origin. It might be, you know, the more standard stuff they just don't see here. This is something we've written about over the last couple of years. This isn't really pint of origin related, but is that something you've seen bit more of in the last two or three years, people going back to more ordinary, more almost like traditional styles of beer over time, you know, in terms the kegs that are moving faster?
00:44:36
Speaker
oh I think ill just in in general across the people owners,
00:44:46
Speaker
hardcore. People are like, oh, cool, I can do this, I can do this. Like, I can have one of this, but I can have three of those. Like, I think people are more interested in spending time with the people that they're with, and they're not like, oh, I need to have this.
00:45:05
Speaker
Like, for us personally, like, it's gone in the days of, oh, we've got this cake, and a lot of people would turn up for that cake it's like oh that cake's on i will have one to try it kind of thing um is it more they just trust when they come in there's going to be something they know and like yeah yeah whatever time they come in there's going to be a range of beers and some something that meet their tastes yeah i understand like the we a happy one wet hopper a sour one uh like those things like
00:45:41
Speaker
There'll be one for most categories, but ah like we don't really go into those extremes. Yeah. You talked before about the this time for the industry as well, and hopefully, Planet of Origin will go go off again, you know put lots of money over the bars that are taking part as having in previous years, but and you've...
00:45:58
Speaker
said in the first half of the chat, how you actually going well, but a lot of people haven't been going so well. And what's actually been like, you know, the last five years going from, you know, COVID into cost of living crisis? And have you had to you certainly haven't got switched to a budget offering? So may have have you evolved over that time? Or have you navigated it all?
00:46:16
Speaker
well now now we're at the point where like b is really expensive
Beer Industry Challenges and Regulations
00:46:22
Speaker
like beer isn't as accessible as it was like pranks or 15 16 17 dollars like that's a lot of money for a fluid that you're meant to have on your down time and your relaxation time which you're spending your expendable cash on and i i don't think that's good because that forces especially like the younger generations into like other things like young people aren't going to pubs or restaurants like because they can't afford it like you can't go out and spend 50 bucks on two drinks and that does arguably not far off where where we're at like we've got an election soon and like in australia like
00:47:09
Speaker
Beer tax goes up twice year every year with without any without anyone going, oh, this isn't wrong. like People need to have their relaxation time and downtime and interaction time.
00:47:25
Speaker
If you can't go out and you can't socialize and have conversations like we're doing now where I've got my point of view, you've got your point of view, you've got your point of view, like you're just in a a very probable thing computer games with some keyboard warriors and and it's not good like Pubs, especially, are meant to be public houses where people can go coverse and and see other facts of life, different opinions and things.
00:48:00
Speaker
And we are very much in danger of changing that, where it's going to become elitist, because only rich old people can do that. Or if you're with your mom or your dad or whoever it is,
00:48:14
Speaker
we need to have and like it needs to be equalized where when you're 20 years old you could go to the pub with your mates and get drink and have a chat and sit there and relax you don't need to be artificially stimulated by a screen or x y or ed like this is this is going to become a problem because
00:48:42
Speaker
if taxes go up again and and again and again we'll look at 20 pints in our lifetimes and it doesn't cost 20 dollars to make a beer it's a lot less than that but we are pricing out a lot of people of the market and we have the cost of living crisis we have interest rates are high we have all of these things which have external pressures on you like pubs aren't really pubs anymore like you go there for for food or you have like different people from different areas coming in and they're like this is really fucking expensive why is it so expensive like the amount of external costs on us as business owners taxes
00:49:30
Speaker
right like food i've never seen food this expensive in my life it's crazy why are we not letting people get together and congregate why are we not having conversations why are we not doing this this this is going to become a bigger and bigger problem yeah And how have you managed to keep people all coming through the door and stay afloat? Cause I'm sure you've seen a lot of, you know, you've been hospital scene Melbourne for years. I'm sure you've seen some mates businesses, you know, that up against the wall, which must be tough. Like what is it you've done and others that have, sipped I guess, survived and thrived, what have they done to make it through?
00:50:10
Speaker
Well, I was personally like, um, although we got away with happy hours and things like that and,
00:50:19
Speaker
Not getting paid for tournament years was really hard because, like, it has, like, much bigger... effects on your life like all of a sudden like you yeah you're reconsidering when you're sending your kids to school because like if you have a lot if if you plant properly you have lifetime plans and blah blah but like we've got a counter meal now that we do every day which is 25 bucks so you can come in and we know we can feed you for 25 bucks
00:50:54
Speaker
But like, they're like, why isn't it a snitcher? Why isn't it this? Why isn't it that? It's like, oh, we can't do that anymore. Like, it's not... Like, there was time after COVID where I think broccoli was more expensive than chicken.
00:51:11
Speaker
And it's like, what the fuck is going on? And then you have other things where it's like... like do is um the the potato shortage because there was too much rain in one place there was a drought in one place and like literally you like you'd have like several owners sat around the table going who the can get chips yeah like it's crazy like they were literally shipping potatoes over in containers just to feed the chip sure's it like ah like the fact that you had to sit down and have a meeting about where the fuck your chip is coming from this isn't worth nobody well people did that but it wasn't like it wasn't an aggressive thing it was just a fact of
00:52:03
Speaker
of where we were at as as a society. And so, i like, those meetings, hopefully, have passed gone. But it wasn't like you could turn around like, one of the old boys go, what happened in 57? What happened in 64? How did he get past it?
00:52:18
Speaker
Those guys were like, hey, I've got no idea what the fuck is going on here. like you had to like be responsive you had to like have clear lines of communication with all of your peers and it was really cool because i i generally think we all got a lot closer like like now we share a lot more information than we used to but yeah it was it was challenging yeah bunker mentality And in terms of you saying sort of come close to the community, what's the sort of general feeling amongst that community of what needs to change? Taxes.
00:52:55
Speaker
You need to pay less taxes. You want to get voted in. Cut taxes. Yeah. if You can cut that bit. That's the that's just the soap for grab for social.
00:53:12
Speaker
and
00:53:16
Speaker
Victoria is a very, very, very hard place to do business as a small business. yeah It feels very isolating. It feels very hard.
00:53:30
Speaker
And then you read the newspaper or you scroll on the newspaper but and all these big cunts, again, tax breaks. They're not getting sent to jail for breaking law.
00:53:43
Speaker
We're employing people. and as soon as you employ more than x amount people you get hit with payroll tax like if you got wet like wet tax goes on and gsc goes on the top so you're taxing the tax we pay so much fucking tax it's disheartening Right, and like we do hospitality because hospitality is connection. It's about love for your community. It's a about seeing people smile, like giving them experiences that they take home and they cherish.
00:54:16
Speaker
And they're their core life memories. 21st birthdays, parties, like just a random thing. Like they might be on a blind date where they meet their future spouse.
00:54:30
Speaker
small small businesses in victoria especially get shit on daily and when the government comes at you they are brutal and relentless and it's very very hard to remain positive and to motivate your staff so they can turn around and make those memories for other people
00:54:58
Speaker
There needs to be a reassessment on how important small business this is our Australian life. What keeps you going then?
00:55:07
Speaker
No comment. but
00:55:10
Speaker
I know with me, I've got nothing else to do. I've got to make it work. um What keeps me going? um Contact. Contact with people. People's stories.
00:55:22
Speaker
Like the fact that I could walk in the pub at whatever time of day and I would generally know three to 12 people. And when they see you, they're generally, genuinely happy to see you.
00:55:37
Speaker
And you have a hug and you know that mom, you know the kids, you know all of these things. And they tell you what's good in their life. They'll tell you what's bad in their life. And that keeps you going.
00:55:54
Speaker
Fantastic. I mean, we might have to wrap up soon, but if you went back to when you took over Lincoln, would there be one little bit of advice you'd tell yourself? Yeah, 100%. What is it? Don't fucking do it.
00:56:07
Speaker
Don't do it in Victoria.
00:56:10
Speaker
That's it?
00:56:13
Speaker
Yeah, the smile. And that would probably be the same piece of advice you'd give anyone thinking of getting into pubs now then.
00:56:22
Speaker
oh don't force it like yeah because it's a hard thing because like you get into the tunnel and you're like we call it kissing frogs like even if you don't even if the site on paper you know you don't want it you should go and look around it because
00:56:43
Speaker
If it's site don't want, you will go through it with different eyes and you will see bad things about it. But those bad things you can translate into why is that there? what Why is that wrong? And you can, you're really thinking about fixes for it.
00:57:01
Speaker
So go around sites that you don't want, that you know you can't afford or whatever it is because all of them add to your layers of knowledge.
00:57:12
Speaker
There you go. That was a slightly slightly more involved than the previous previous answer. And what about if you had a hope for the hospital industry, the pub scene in Melbourne or Australia? And it can't be less taxes.
00:57:25
Speaker
but More understanding from oversight. like more understanding of how hard it is like the fact that it costs so much money to employ people sponsor of people sponsoring people is so hard and the guys who come over and work for us who we sponsor are amazing and we've sponsored tens tens of people like maybe up to 100 now over
00:57:58
Speaker
the the time we've been doing it and we need to be more understanding like we it shouldn't be as hard they shouldn't be getting put through ringers and like little tiny things that make it so hard like immigration lawyers don't really give a fuck like and the amount of really single things that go wrong which jeopardize their future life plans, which can be fixed, which can be rectified, but shouldn't happen in the first place.
00:58:31
Speaker
We need to be more understanding of this because the local talent don't want to wash dishes. The local talent don't want to operate deep fires. The local talent doesn't want to fucking collect classes.
00:58:45
Speaker
We need to be stocking our industry with people who want to do this. And we need to be giving them clear and honest pathways to citizenship because they pay taxes as well.
00:58:57
Speaker
They are a essential part of our community, essential part of our, like going forward as a country and we need to do it better. This is a country of immigrants and we need to look after people better.
00:59:13
Speaker
Fantastic. Thank you so much, Lingy. Not raising. I'm glad we finished on a rant.
00:59:21
Speaker
The Crafty Pine podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer-related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website, craftypint.com, and can stay up-to-date on future podcast episodes via our socials.
00:59:35
Speaker
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00:59:51
Speaker
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