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Archaeologists vs. Ancient Aliens: The Truth Behind Viking Myths - Aliens 75
2 Playsin 4 hours
This podcast delves into the peculiar claims made by the show Ancient Aliens regarding the Viking Age. Swedish archaeologist Fredrik and Norwegian archaeologist Steffen Bakk critically examine the episode that suggests Vikings may have had extraterrestrial influences, questioning the validity of such assertions. They highlight the absurdity of claims like Odin’s ravens being spy drones and the possibility of aliens crafting Viking weapons. The discussion tackles the issue of how ancient cultures are often infantilized and misrepresented, reducing complex societies to simplistic and fantastical narratives. Throughout their conversation, they emphasize the importance of grounded archaeological evidence over sensationalist interpretations, underscoring that ancient peoples could achieve remarkable achievements without invoking aliens.
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The intro music is Lily of the woods by Sandra Marteleur, and the outro is named “Folie hatt” by Trallskruv.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Context
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome to Digging up Ancient Aliens. This is the podcast where we examine alternative history and ancient alien narratives in the popular media. um Do these ideas hold water to an archaeologist or are there better explanations out there?
00:00:35
Speaker
We are now on episode 75 and I am Fredrik, your guide into the world of pseudo-archaeology.
Were Vikings Aliens?
00:00:42
Speaker
This time we are asking if the Vikings could have been aliens, or maybe at least influenced by them.
00:00:51
Speaker
With me I have Norwegian archaeologist Stefan Beck, who runs a very successful tech talk account where he talks about Vikings, 3D printing and well other things related to archaeology. Together we will ask the hard questions.
Meet Stefan Beck: Archaeology and TikTok
00:01:09
Speaker
If Odin's ravens might have been spydrones,
00:01:13
Speaker
if Thor's belt it could have been an exosuit, and if um the dwarves in Norse mythology just were grey aliens. And I want to thank everyone who supports the show. You are really helping out with producing this content, and I'm very humbled and grateful for your support.
00:01:36
Speaker
And if you want to help out, I will tell you exactly how to do that and how does to get some bonus stuff at the end of this episode. Now, remember that you can find sources and further reading suggestions at our website, www.ancientandians.com. And there you will also find the contact info if you notice any mistakes or have any suggestions. And if you like the podcast,
00:02:04
Speaker
I would really appreciate it if you left one of those fancy five-star reviews that I heard so much about. Now, I think we have finished with our preparations, so let's dig into the episode.
00:02:28
Speaker
So I want to welcome my guest and maybe first time podcast guest, Stephen Beck. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's got to be a pleasure and I can't wait. ah i've I've heard many good things about the Ancient Aliens ah show. So it's going to be interesting to be able to talk about it. There's a lot of interesting conversation I think we will have, but for those who aren't familiar with your work or who you are, would you maybe give ah the cliff notes on your experience? So I am currently
00:03:06
Speaker
I've just finished my bachelor's in archaeology at the University of Tomsa in Northern Norway, and I'm working at the University Museum of Tomsa as well as a field archaeologist and also as a research technician right now handling finds and cataloging artifacts. It was really fun.
3D Printing in Archaeology: Accessibility and Ethics
00:03:24
Speaker
And also, most likely you might have heard from me on my TikTok account, SteffenbachSidules, where I talk a lot about 3D printing, 3D archaeology, and Viking mythology.
00:03:36
Speaker
stuff like that. So um how do you feel that 3D printing and that can help archaeology be more accessible? Because I find that a quite fascinating topic. Before we get to the ancient alien stuff, we can... Oh, perfect. My niche. Awesome.
00:03:52
Speaker
No, i I think that using 3D and especially 3D printing ah to make artifacts more accessible to a lot of people has great benefits for society, especially with ah how we teach people about artifacts.
00:04:09
Speaker
um there was a yeah They've done something very interesting down at the Museum of Oslo, where they've 3D printed a lot of ah Stone Age axes and put them next to the display case. And that has allowed vision impaired guests to come up and actually touch the artifacts instead of just listening to them on devices. So it becomes an entirely new medium to touch and how to to learn about with the tactile feeling for an example.
00:04:36
Speaker
opens up a more easy way to create artifacts because replicas can be quite expensive or is it really a cost saving in your perspective compared to ordering a replica to 3D printing? Do you see any cost benefits there?
00:04:55
Speaker
So I actually had a had a whole presentation about the ethics of 3D printing, and and someone actually brought that question up. Was I but was i afraid that the trade of original artifact like replica making was going to be thrown out the window now that we had a more cost-efficient way to do it? um But um my answer was that you have to look at them as two very completely different things, because if you want to have a replica made, let's let's say the the bronze brooch that you've probably seen me 3D print,
00:05:25
Speaker
If you want to have that cast in bronze, you definitely can, but a replicated broach that is cast in bronze or any kind of other things like that will not be... You can't share it in the same way that, for an example, a plastic replica that costs less to make. There's also the the there's also the aspect of like time spent with it and the material costs. For example, in a museum in London, they made ah now in the US, they made headdresses for, I think it was native Native Americans, and the material that it cost to make these replica headdresses was so expensive that even though their main intention and usage for them was to actually hand them out, let people try them on,
00:06:05
Speaker
they had to be displayed next to the original artifacts in the class case and completely inaccessible. So I think that 3D printing can definitely solve the issue of both ah cost and availability of artifacts, which gives people a completely different understanding of what they are.
00:06:21
Speaker
Yeah, I wouldn't really give out a real replica to a bunch of schoolchildren visiting a museum, for example, no because as you said, it's an investment, but 3D printing can really make a museum exhibition more accessible to more people who doesn't really always have their eyes because we kind of focus a lot on objects in archaeology for obvious
Ancient Aliens and Historical Misconceptions
00:06:47
Speaker
reasons. but because We're you know a little trinket hoarders. We love to touch and hold the trinkets. yeah and About trinkets, I want to shift over to ancient aliens. There's a concept you have been familiar with in the past.
00:07:04
Speaker
It's it's some ah the only thing I've really read up about it, which is... I've heard ah ah heard a lot of horror and sci-fi podcasts, and then they especially talk a lot about the Aryans, for an example, which is also alluded to in this episode of Ancient Aliens, where they have sort of a... Would you like me to tell to talk a little bit about it now, or take it when we get to it in a little bit later? No, we haven't really talked about the Aryans in the past. We can have it as a light introduction to the episode.
00:07:32
Speaker
yeah ah Well, it it started really with like, it has ties back to white supremacy, of course, and also Nazi Germany and stuff where essentially there's this higher being and higher race of aliens that's above the grays that have white skin, super blonde hair, blue eyes, and they have names such as Freyr, Odin, Thor.
00:07:54
Speaker
ah just It's been used in the most heinous way to like really like solidify the superiority of the white race. Yeah. Yeah. That's nothing really too unfamiliar to those listening to the show for quite some time. It's strangely right wing and strangely Soviet propaganda coming in from ancient to aliens. So we mean we get both camps there a little bit. so Okay. I haven't heard a lot about the Soviet, the Soviet angle.
00:08:26
Speaker
Yeah, but the the Soviets wasn't always as, ah well, scientifically and honest, and they kind of put out these very strange books on science and history, especially. There's a few examples, for example, in Mohenjo-Daro. Are you familiar with that site? No, not that I can say.
00:08:48
Speaker
and so i's in oh sorry I think it's in northern Pakistan. I might have to go back and edit this part later. no worries but It is one of the earliest cities that we have. actually and It's ah very nicely built. We have a city layer. or but we street grid and everything. But there's a lot of strange claims about the site, such as it was bombed by an atomic bomb. but And this Russian alternative history his science book written by a Soviet, um and I think it's a physicist he was, and it kind of got picked up by David Childress.
00:09:35
Speaker
in the 80s and 90s and the from there it kind of evolved to this. There was ah ancient atomic weapons in the past and who has atomic weapons? Aliens. Except it's just a mistranslation of a Russian ah history alternative history book that's based on a mistranslation of a British study on the on how the body is affected by radiation during skydiving, where they bring up historical examples. And the historical example they really talk about here is an example in Egypt that gets translated to Mahindra Dara. It's very confusing and a lot of things have gone wrong, but that's, you know, the matter of ancient aliens.
00:10:26
Speaker
It's just, if you get a ball rolling, just roll with it as far as you can. It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense. It doesn't matter if you do leaps and bounds away from the main topic. like As long as you get to a weirdly confusing sentence at the end, then you're fine.
00:10:41
Speaker
Yeah, as long as it sounds good and sells. Yeah. They are great salesmen. they I mean, most of them can craft very good stories or yeah at least decent stories. yeah I mean, ancient times is good science fiction, as we see in Assassin's Creed, for example. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But i feel I feel like when, for example, when you when you start calling things um alternative history books, I think we should go away from like listening to them and taking them as science books, you know?
00:11:10
Speaker
Yeah, we should really come up with a new term for the whole alternative history segment as a whole. But yeah, that's a difference. Conspiracy, propaganda. is that i think Well, because you'd think when they found out that it was a mis-translation, they'd come up with a statement and say, oh, sorry, we were wrong.
00:11:27
Speaker
No, they're still going with it. Oh, yeah. 100%. No, no, no. That's what I'm saying. like But that that's just like, fit to me, that's validity that they know that they're just talking talking from ah like talking from ignorance and not being intellectually honest about whether they're actually relating to people. Yeah. But as I say, have said several times, I don't think they're in it for the honesty. They're in it for the mystery. Yeah. The money. Yeah. The money mystery is how much can I make on this?
00:11:58
Speaker
Yeah, and then I think maybe some started that way, but I think those who are the biggest names are hardcore believers at this point. I don't think there's any like a cult, there's no really way out of it for them.
Viking Portrayal: Democracy and Culture
00:12:11
Speaker
No, it's like it's like sort of like, yeah, if if they try to look themselves in the mirror, the mirror is going to shatter kind of thing. Yeah. I can get behind that. That makes sense. And I mean, if your whole life is selling mysteries and ancient aliens, I mean,
00:12:25
Speaker
you don't really have any money of coming out against it there. No, that's fair. So you're kind of stuck in a sense. But but yes. About being stuck. So what did you think about the Vikings and aliens episode? I think the best way that I can describe it is that This episode of Ancient Aliens makes Graham Hancock's Ancient Apocalypse look like a real documentary. because it's just It's just dramatic shot after dramatic shot after nonsense uttered after nonsense uttered after connections made that aren't there at all. it It's insane.
00:13:07
Speaker
and in like the most positive way. I don't understand how they could have come up with this logically and thought that this was something that they wanted to publish and say out loud. like They had the entire internal monologue of um one of my favorite bits is, like for example, that Hugin and Munin are ah alien spy drones yeah and they believe this and they say it with their full chest. and they But they always frame it as like, and but could this be real?
00:13:37
Speaker
you know, ah ah but couldn't it be that this could be the fact actually? And we're like, no, of course not. That's silly. Yeah. But I mean, they usually make these very large jumps to conclusions. Yeah. And the whole shtick is basically that ancient people can't describe ah advanced technology using the words that they have access to. I mean,
00:14:03
Speaker
if you think UFO, we think two ravens. It doesn't really make sense in that way. and ah though it's just It always comes back to like the almost infantilization of ancient cultures in a way of like, oh no, they were they were ah like, yeah how do I say it? like I don't want use any offensive words, like but they they they view them as they were just lesser.
00:14:31
Speaker
just because they weren't have they didn't have electricity and they didn't have big cities and so like in the way that we do, they were somehow less complex, which is just plain wrong, in my opinion.
00:14:42
Speaker
a term they usually use is primitive, ah unfortunately. yes These primitive societies that can't accomplish these things by themselves. I was looking for that word. I know that archeologists in the past used that term unfortunately, but we don't really see it in the books since at least 60s, 70s.
00:15:03
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, we kind of gone through it because it makes this weird connotation on how ancient people were because they are humans, they are as intelligent as us. And at the same time, in this episode, they seem to think of the Vikings both as these primitive beasts, the warriors that we often see, but also these very advanced people with advanced metal metallurgy and all of that. So they can't really get an exact idea of what a Viking is or what image they want to portray of them either to some extent. I mean... No, they stopped the whole episode talking about how basically Vikings invented democracy as we know it today with their... Right.
00:15:57
Speaker
Although their civilization was divided among numerous kingdoms, the Norse Vikings were united in their belief in the power of the individual. They had a kind of early assembly that was very advanced for its time before the other areas of Europe had any kind of democracy. So they actually came up with the idea that power belonged to the people, not the royalty. They had something of a proto-democracy, and people would come from that particular region in order to argue issues of law or other kinds of cultural or issues of political significance at that time. With their things and… And the power to the people, but that truly the power should always be with the people, never with the countless kings that we have in the Viking Age.
00:16:46
Speaker
or the Jarls political structures. I mean, I'm no master on how the thing worked in at least Sweden, the Viking age. Do you have an understanding how it worked in Norway? I know that there's difference between the countries um who had voting and rights to access things. From the way that I remember, ah from the way that I remember specifically, I had a page up here, but um I can't speak much for Denmark or Sweden, but in Norway at least, what we view them as is they were places where free men could go and they could voice their opinions and they would sort of be collectively taken care of or talked about. Where settlements could be made, like, you know, Höllengangen, such and such. that That's kind of the the thing that we have of them. But it's it's it's weird that they're attributing this to the Vikings when we have traces of the tradition going way further back than the Vikings.
00:17:45
Speaker
Yeah. In my opinion, it just feels like a really, really weird way to misrepresent what they're talking about. Yeah. And they kind of have, it's a very common thing. They represent Vikings as one culture because the thing, as you said, that Norway sure will have some similarities with Sweden, but if you compare with the Gotland, for example, there,
00:18:09
Speaker
variation of a thing was very different. They had the big thing and then they have, I think there's 12 districts on the island where they have separate things for so what becomes the parish later, basically, with different levels of attendees and who can attend what level of these things. So, I mean, there are some advanced ideas, but I mean, the Viking world isn't um single world, we're talking about a very mixed set of ah people sharing a similar culture.
00:18:47
Speaker
Yeah, especially like it's what we talked about a little bit earlier to it. It's like the the infantilization again of this culture, the Viking culture and the simplification of it. It's just like this one tiny thing instead of considering the massive amounts of data, which they also tried to back up by saying, oh, we don't know anything about this period. There's never been any written records. Mostly only we have the two texts written down 300 years after the Viking Age. And that's It's just plain wrong and you're sort of catering to an audience by saying that you have no data, but it's only because you haven't looked at the actual data and stuff that's there. yeah um And I also just wanted to touch on the way that they when you said that they don't know how to represent the Vikings, it becomes very clear after they say specifically theyd say something along the lines of,
00:19:31
Speaker
ah They were a very like rich, high-cultured society. And then they immediately showed the attack on Lindisfarne, where they're all dressed in barbaric tunics with like fur over their coats and just slaughtering and killing for no apparent reason. So I don't even know think the show knew where they wanted to go with what a Viking was.
00:19:49
Speaker
No, and they are very split about what the Viking world is because they kind of start getting it right. Oh, it's a large portion stretching from ah Sweden, Denmark, Norway, all the way to America. They leave out a whole Baltic area, of Poland, the down and the Volga rivers and all that. It's also part of this Viking world. But They kind of start good and then we just went sideways. And as you touched on that, we don't have written records. yeah And then they call the writing system hieroglyphs.
00:20:23
Speaker
Yeah, I noticed that too. It was like, what do you mean hieroglyphs? My partner, bless them, they sat next to me when I was watching this and they had to actually touch my hand and be like, hey, are you okay? And I'm like, I am vibrating out of my seat. This is so infuriating to watch. I mean, there's some researcher who messed up, but I mean, it's runes and we go you could You can maybe get away if you were talking about the petroglyphs, but they were never mentioned at all, unless and and except they do have the one photo of the longship. Yeah, and there are some Bronze Age petroglyphs, but the i mean from a different era, it's the Bronze Age. It's way before the Viking Age.
00:21:12
Speaker
yeah in this case. I think those were from Tarnum down in Skåne, if I remember correctly. I never looked up ah which ones they used, but it looked like Swedish at least. Yeah. Because I thought it looked a little bit like the one that's um yeah up in Alfta. That's what I was thinking about. In Finnmach. The UNESCO World Heritage Site. They have one that I thought was very similar.
00:21:40
Speaker
but But at the same time, most of those are kind of the same to some extent. I might be wrong too. It's just the association I thought we see. Yeah, no, but I see which one I'm thinking about and it's this because this one, I can agree with you that the other one looked way more Swedish. This one has way more people on it and has a bigger keel. Yeah. On the one in Alfa. So I was mistaken. I'll take it back.
00:22:09
Speaker
it's fine we can edit that out or i just make it a little sound by it i'm mistaken no and leave it and leave it and please people are also here not only for the app but for to prove other people wrong so it's fine ah But yeah, but I mean, the petroglyphs aren't really hieroglyphs. It's not really a language spoken there. I mean, proto-runic script maybe could be hieroglyphs, but at the same time they use actually runic alphabets.
00:22:43
Speaker
Even if it's just... I mean, they've they've just they've just misspoken. They've just labeled it wrong. They used the wrong... ah I was about to use the wrong words myself, but like they just used the wrong terminology to describe the thing. And then instead of going back and maybe fixing it in PostEd, they just went with it and left it in because I don't think they understand the difference between runes and hieroglyphs.
Vikings' Imagination vs. Pseudo-Scientific Claims
00:23:04
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, most Americans, I don't think, caught it, but probably in general, people have watched it. so But, I mean, it's a bit interesting that they bring up Greece and Rome as a civilization we know a lot about, but not the Vikings, especially since we have writings about the Vikings from the Busan theme. That's basically Rome later. And we have the Venice Lion that's from Greece with the runestone carved on it, if you haven't seen it. Yeah, I've seen it, yeah.
00:23:37
Speaker
it It's like they're trying to sort of mystify the Vikings as to trying to clear up what they were. And I don't know if that is in an attempt to try and sort of ah justify their bounds and leaps into, oh yeah, no, the Vikings could definitely have been helped by aliens, or if or if they just don't know.
00:23:56
Speaker
that's That's always what it's for me. like Do they do they gen like yeah we talkeded about a little bit earlier like do they but genuinely believe what they're saying here? I think they believe what they're saying, but they it might also be a technique to kind of muddy the water. So if we have a lot of mystery that we can play on, then who really knows the truth? Is it the so-called experts or is it you know the alien theorists or what we should call them?
00:24:24
Speaker
Yeah, because both because you know those two are exactly the same. it's the It's the same kind of information and the same kind of background. And we're both just here for the answers. Yeah. So I can i can see that approach as well, but i just it's very hard for me to believe that, for me, it's very hard to sort of align my views with that kind of narrative thinking a little bit, if that makes sense.
00:24:44
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, part of archaeology is the mystery, I say, but we kind of use it to tell a story based on the best evidence. We don't try to really hide the evidence.
00:24:56
Speaker
I think there's the main distinction from between ancient aliens and historians and archaeologists. Yeah, because what we do, look at least how I perceive it is that that we but we work, especially from the material record, from what is known into the unknown, but what we sort of see with at least pseudoscience and people maybe in like ancient aliens environments, they work from the unknown into like the known. They go, oh, well, if Huguenamumen were birds that sat on Odin's shoulders and flew out into the world every day, doesn't that sound like spy-copters? Couldn't that possibly be alien spy-copters? They are using some sort of like some critical like some thinking, but I don't know if they're doing like critical thinking with the information they have.
00:25:41
Speaker
I don't think they do. um And sometimes they kind of, but they kind of use real sites to defend their position, as we saw with the Norse settlement in the newfound land up in, now I lost the name of the site. Oh, it was the... yeah Leon's Medol. Leon's Ox Medos. Yeah, you got it too. Yep.
00:26:09
Speaker
not sure about that pronunciation, but they bring up that it was founded in 1970s and all that. And it's true that it was a speculation, but the thing is we actually found it. Yep.
00:26:22
Speaker
And we found the archaeological record in the area that they were there. It's not like the Kensington Runestone, for example, where they just found a stone and nothing else ever since. Nope. And in three different, I would say stages of a runology as well, different, wasn't it different time periods, the ruins from different time periods on the same stone? No, it's from the same, but the specific script is traced to a location in Sweden. Right.
00:26:48
Speaker
that pre yeah that's after, ah let me get this correct, 1880. It can't have been earlier than that due to the rooms used on the stone.
00:27:01
Speaker
And as so happens, the guy who found it was from that particular region in Sweden. Mysterious. mr mysterious Very much indeed. Several surveys later, and they haven't found a trace of Viking encampment in Minnesota, basically. But don't get me started on Minnesota. I have so much to say about, we even we've even actually had a, ah we had a class up here that is called like archaeology, ah history, appreciation and appropriation. And that Minnesota came up as one of the main contenders for the appropriating angle. There's a lot of good stuff that happens in Minnesota too. I do enjoy a lot of the work that they've done. Like for example, when they made the Viking ship, that was very nice. But then when you actually look about what they're publishing and saying about this Viking ship is that it's a 100% authentic Viking ship. Yeah.
00:27:49
Speaker
And they've combined like a replica, I think it was a replica of the Guksta ship, if I'm not mistaken. Sounds vaguely familiar. Yeah. And then they added like a dragon's head to it. So, you know, it had a different kind of key ah keel on it and it
Viking Technology: Myths and Realities
00:28:02
Speaker
had a different shape. it had ah It was way wider than the original ship as well. It's like they've taken liberties with it. um But the the main the main reason why Minnesota came up as like approp appropriation was ah Because one of the biggest assaults on Native American rights and peoples in the US was in Minnesota, in the area surrounding Minnesota, and that's almost never really talked about in the Minnesota counties and in the cities.
00:28:28
Speaker
Yeah, and that's a bit the dangers of you seeing, for example, the Kensington Runestone as an artifact to themselves as a indigenous people to the land that they have the right to this due to earlier presence of Scandinavians. Kind of erasing their own heritage and replacing it with something more ideal.
00:28:55
Speaker
they're creating ah their own heritage, not that it seems to have been the creator's idea of the stone. He, from stories, seemed to be more, I want to thumb my nose at those ah pesky yeah kind of things, at least what one of the hoaxer's children said about their father, that oh he wanted to snob those fancy academics and all of that. But That part is not really discussed. I actually did an episode on the Kensington Roost on Greece, so it's kind of familiar still. It's the eternal struggle of ah farmers versus archaeologists.
00:29:34
Speaker
yeah answer's up now Yeah, a Norwegian, a Swede, and another Swede. Yeah. so Yep. Yep. No, that's fine. Jesus. but i ah ah whilst i whilst we're on at the ah Did you remember the ah the pictures that and videos they showed of the travels of the Vikings in ancient aliens when they talked about going to Newfoundland?
00:29:58
Speaker
ah yeah the yeah talking about they going cross the atlantic instead of through iceland and greenland versusly so The North crisscrossed half the world in their longships. In the East, they sailed down the rivers of Russia to the Black and the Caspian Sea.
00:30:16
Speaker
In the west, they sailed down the coast of Europe through the Strait of Gibraltar into the Mediterranean. They reached out across the then unknown Atlantic Ocean. They went almost everywhere there was. And the arrow just goes, it goes, the worst part is they have it on the map and they go straight past it and they don't even mention it. Nope.
00:30:38
Speaker
And then they ask, but how could these primitive people say across the Atlantic something? No, you they didn't. stop You missed it completely, actually.
00:30:50
Speaker
and ah you But yeah, the that's kind of how they do it. There's another episode where they talk a little bit about Vikings and the Trelleborgs down in Denmark, where they claim that all are all on a line. yeah And they kind of draw this nice land line on the map, you know,
00:31:08
Speaker
everyone is connected, but but if you zoom in or try to use a Google map, you quickly come to realize that no, that's not the case. The trailer board says, of course, you know, UFO landing spots. No, of course. Yeah. Cause they are circles. Yeah. Yeah. And that is the only thing. And people can't do perfect circles without advanced technology. You just need a string and a stick in the middle. Yep.
00:31:38
Speaker
but Not even that, you all you need is like a rope and a person holding it in the middle and then, oh, the length of the rope, hold it taut and just walk in a circle. That's all you need. ah I used to love, I can't remember the name of the guy who did it, but someone who was ah using experimental archeology to test a lot of the theories on how the pyramids were built. Thank you.
00:31:57
Speaker
yeah yeah the The person who showed how to move the stones, for example, with easy levers and ah how to make the bottom of the pyramid very leveled by flooding the basement with water and then etching onto the line where the water level was.
00:32:10
Speaker
for an example, and it's like it's it's not, of course, it's not a laser, ah what is it called? What is it called? Like the measuring thing? Yeah, ah a laser leveler. I don't know if that's the way to say it. so it's not It's not science fiction in that way, but it's not primitive. it's an It's a very ingenious way to use the materials and resources around you you to do what you would like to do. It's it's human ingenuity at its best.
00:32:38
Speaker
Yeah, but the water level thing here ah is called actually a ah spirit level. Oh. But as for the pyramids and using water, I actually did an episode on the pyramids and it seems to have been debunked that they could use water. It would evaporate too quickly when they did a test in the desert, unfortunately. Oh no, don't leave the Zen. Don't leave the Zen.
00:33:04
Speaker
But the yeah, I think it was an accepted idea. And they also think that in some cases, they could actually use water depending on the location of the pyramids, but the Giza Plateau for example, it was not possible on due to the too little water too high up. and yeah yeah i understand I understand the concept of of the debunking.
00:33:26
Speaker
them. Fair enough. and but like But still, the point stands. that the point with us yeah we kind of But that's something we kind of usually forgot is how to do stuff. I mean, we don't have to do it make iron ore today. And that's a common thing that they, how did the Vikings get so good at getting ores? Well, they had to.
00:33:50
Speaker
And not all of them were especially great. That's something that didn't leave out from and the settlement in America. The iron slag that we find in this location is horrendous. They did not manage to purify the iron properly compared to proper as smith. So not everybody had the knowledge and the But they kind of they do brush over it to just get the main so main facts of the story to move along as quickly as possible so you don't actually linger on any of these sort of questions. And especially I had noticed that when they were talking about the boat nails and the iron ore and, oh, they were master craftsmen who made super complex alloys to help protect the the the boat nails from ah de degeneration and rust.
00:34:41
Speaker
Okay. Which ones? What are you talking about? What information are you giving me other than that they had alloys? Would you have given me no evidence for it? No, but you shouldn't think too much about it.
00:34:54
Speaker
No, no, no. I think that's the slogan of this entire episode. Just don't just don't think too much about it and
Extraterrestrial Valkyries: A Critique
00:35:00
Speaker
you'll be fine. But that's also why they kind of just throw so much at you at the same time so you don't really have time to sit and relax and let the information sink in. You're kind of getting hit with something new that you have to reflect on. So now we go from both rivers to that the the Mayans and the Egyptians didn't travel the world while the Vikings were all over the place.
00:35:25
Speaker
yep so but And all of that. So I mean, they kind of throw everything so you don't really sit and think about it. But as you said, the advanced science of metallurgy, I think it's the ASMR tell us as that and different types of alloys. And it's all out of context from other cultures seem to be interacting with They had a very solid understanding of hydrodynamics. In some of the ships, we also found advanced signs of metallurgy, smelting, and different types of alloys that they were using. And this is all out of context from other cultures they seem to be interacting with.
00:36:05
Speaker
And it's just a strange statement out of nowhere because, I mean, did they have some iron alloys that were really good? Sure. Did they have some iron alloys that was really, really bad? Definitely. Yeah. But I mean, the Vikings had steel. They put the bones of their enemies onto the swords that castified some parts of the iron that purified it and made it into steel. So that's why the Viking swords were so much better.
00:36:34
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Of course. Yeah, of course. That's how it works. ah The blood of my enemies and ancestors and all that. Yeah. Yeah. And everybody had a sword because they are Vikings. Oh, yeah. In fact, they kind of used axes or things like that. Or spears. Or spears. One of the most common ones. No, but it it yeah but i do we want to move on to mythologies in the episode? Because that was ah really interesting part of it. because that's sort of what but When they started talking about aliens in Norse mythology, that's when I just realized that none of this none of this is true. that they It can't be true. I almost thought you'd sent me like a parody episode a little bit.
00:37:19
Speaker
Because it's when when you start when you start thinking of, we start thinking of Valkyries, for example, as extraterrestrials and aliens that came to help ah the Vikings, it just it goes way out of proportion for me. Let's see. Because I think I had a claim. No, I think they claimed something.
00:37:37
Speaker
ah Yes, because they they they say that Valkyries might have been extraterrestrials who chose warriors to bring to Valhalla Odin's preferred home, which is a completely different talking point, which is a completely different realm or planet, which completely is completely false because Valkyries are you know the divine figures in Norse mythology who serve Odin and are tasked with selecting warriors to join him in Valhalla.
00:38:01
Speaker
So they've taken something that is very clearly stated in the mythology in the Eddas and then warped it and just added the word extraterrestrial on top of it. I think it's because a huge part of the alien narrative is that they interbreed with people to career to correct mistakes in human evolution. So I think the idea there is a kind of a deep cut, but the idea is that the Valkyrias come and bring up the most noble
00:38:34
Speaker
people that then get to breathe with the aliens and create, you know, special race of humans kind of thing there. And what color skin would these people have? Most definitely white. There we go. There we go. but cheat ah Because that that's what it always boils down to with like alien theories. And especially when you're talking about the Aryans, it's always like the widest and purest of people who got to go, which is just, it's just plain racism.
00:39:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And they, doesn't even try to hide it really. If they, if you look at von Daniken's ideas, I don't think it was much in this episode, but I think you're familiar with him is the carriage of the gods, yeah German Swiss guy. And he will is a huge proponent of anti-evolution stance. Okay. And especially about how the human race evolved. We have the you know, um, the African people who kind of see as primitive and then the aliens come and say, Oh, this doesn't really do. And they kind of create the Asians and then, ah, and then they create the Arians much better. And, you know, he doesn't really put value in it in the text, but I mean, you kind of lose that, you know, we start with something and then we evolve to something much better.
00:39:55
Speaker
Right. Does he have any opinions on the dwarves or sons of Evaldi that was a little bit later on in the episode, perhaps? Oh, that's kinda... But David Childress is also problematic. He's one of those who tend to quote ah both Neo-Nazis and Soviet propagandists if it serves his ideas. But yeah, David Childress, he claims that the dwarves are just the gray aliens that the the Vikings misinterpret. That's what I forgot.
00:40:32
Speaker
And these little piece ah people are the ones who make these high-tech weapons for the Norse cause. It would seem that these weapons are extraterrestrial in nature. Why? Now, when you think of a dwarf and think of extraterrestrial, you think little greys. And I think that the dwarves might have been alien greys. That's Yoshinori who says that. And because they didn't know how to describe them, they will call them dwarves or little people.
00:41:01
Speaker
And these little people are the ones who are making these high-tech weapons for these Norse gods. You would see that these weapons are extraterrestrial in nature.
00:41:15
Speaker
Now, when you think of dwarfs and think of extraterrestrials, you think of little greys. And I think the dwarfs might have been alien greys. From coast to coast AM. And I mean, it's just a problematic statement because if you read the Norse idea of the dwarfs, it's not really
Mythology vs. Alien Narratives
00:41:37
Speaker
aliens. They're not the grey. When you talked about the greys being the people that will build this technology for the Vikings.
00:41:46
Speaker
Freyr's ship. Can we just talk about Freyr's ship for a little bit? Because in the mythology, it is a ship that is ah built for Freyr that can be folded back and then put into your pouch. It can be put down into your thing. They got that right in the show. Yeah.
00:42:01
Speaker
And then they just leap with it to say that it's, well, was it a, ah an interdimensional spacecraft? Yeah. That's not uncommon because I mean, there are mythologies where it is folding a boat or even a donkey together and putting in your pocket is common ideas, but since you can fold it, then it means that you can fold time interdimensional travel. It's not that just people kind of find it practical to put something in your pocket that's usually really big and that you want to use.
00:42:35
Speaker
I mean, a ship costs money. It's kind of tricky to get over land when you have to. Yeah. And actually putting it, putting up to the docks, also just figuring out where to put it and then it not getting stolen or being drifted away or it being taken by the the low tides and high tides. Of course. I mean, if I could fold my car instead of finding parking in the street, I would get one of those. in yeah no i get I mean, they do now have like the foldable bikes.
00:43:01
Speaker
if you want one of those instead. Yep. Not really pocket sized yet. But we're getting there. It could be a backpack. But yeah, but the it's this very strange leap and it's the idea that ancient people can't have imagination.
00:43:18
Speaker
everything has to be a literal interpretation of something they have seen. It's not you know that they can make up stories to each other and just make things up as today. Yeah, because I always feel like, for example, ah the supernatural explained in all mythologies, I feel usually just as a way for them to explain their surroundings and usually in in ways that and from a world that was more filled filled with more magic and filled with more of of the of this is supernatural deity religious mythology and stuff like that. For example, the um the Rainbow Bridge, the Bifrost, yeah from Norse mythology, which they also mentioned in the show, um which I always just thought was all rainbow. They saw a rainbow and must have thought, oh, that could be the gods traveling from the earth, to from Midgard, all the way up to Valhalla, to Oscar.
00:44:14
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Or the aurora borealis, for example, right with the light flickering over the sky, dancing, as ah and just appearing and then disappearing. right Without knowing that it's magnetic pulses from the sun, how do you explain that happening?
00:44:29
Speaker
Yeah. And again, it's not that they were stupid. They don't know have this access to the information that we have today. And we are humans as a species are curious and need to explain the things around us in the ways that we can. And of course, if we don't have a natural explanation for it, then we go to a supernatural explanations that makes sense instead. It's not about intelligence. It's what's accessible to you in that way. And Yeah. Making sense of your day-to-day life. I mean, most people look at a computer as something magical today because they don't really know how it works, but they could easily look it up. But, you know, you look at it and they have found magic, no idea how that works. No, no, no. I always think about, I don't know if you do, but I've ever thought about like, what would I do if I got stuck back in time? I'd be like, oh, I'd bring so much innovation. I would spur times ahead. And then I go like, how does a phone work?
00:45:28
Speaker
And like how how how could I make a stove? like I have no idea, no idea how to bring society back to like to today's standard. It wouldn't change a single thing. Because we take it for granted. Yeah. I'm out hiking and that type of stuff. so i mean i could maybe keep up with them. But i and when I lost, you know, my modern knives and i have to make my own new one, because I have no idea how to get a mom for making iron or and anything like that, that they just did and made them themselves to a large extent.
Understanding Ancient Cultures
00:46:05
Speaker
But to I mean, could maybe talk about wash your hands.
00:46:10
Speaker
with soap, so we don't get sick. Yeah, I can make soap. Yeah. That could be work, or I could just wash our hands, wash ourselves a little bit more regularly. Disinfect wounds, for example. Don't eat meat that smells sweet. Yeah.
00:46:25
Speaker
having having some sort of outside information, we could maybe fare a little bit better, but it's ah a co-worker about me said we were discussing, um we were we were actually discussing like intelligent back ands in in ancient civilized civilizations. And it's not that humanity mentally, like the capacity or for our brain thought has evolved that much in the last like thousand years. if if you cho and If you took a stone age child and just took it, plopped it out of time stream and plopped it right back here in us, it got adopted by a family here and they were raised.
00:46:56
Speaker
they wouldn't be that much different if any different at all from any child that grew up today. Definitely not. And I mean, and if we went back to time, we most likely it would only be able but to influence a very limited area and also. And I don't think we would be prophets either. No, I think I would get shot on the spot actually. And also the language situation would be a nightmare. I mean, old Swedish is kind of hassle to understand.
00:47:26
Speaker
i i so I speak Stavanger, which is, ah it's all the way down the south in Modla, you know, Hausführer. So I've got the R, I've got the R, I can use that and just kind of point to things and maybe try to articulate what I want. um But ah that that was ah really fun though, because I had a person from, I think he was from Wales, and he told us about like old English words, and when he spoke them,
00:47:51
Speaker
they just sounded exactly like they do now in Norwegian or not exactly, but like they have the same kind of ah word buildup and the sound and sounding of the words. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there's a lot of influence of both Danish and Norwegian in the English language for some weird reason. It's not that they went and pillaged and took over the island for no but just for kicks. But they do actually mention that in the show as well when they go, oh, we actually get our our word for thunder from the god Thor. And it's like, well, yes, but it's to and to.
00:48:27
Speaker
you know yeah Yeah, but they they do mention that in old Swedish, Thor is associated with thunder, which is kind of correct. We kind of said that Thor is rolling over the sky. And we have that too, like his his ah his chariot with the goats. And we also say that it's his and he's striking the anvil with his hammer and Asp was making like the thunder.
00:48:52
Speaker
Yeah, and we have that too. So, I mean, there's ideas of it that they get correct. And I mean, something I want to bring up too is that they talk about the Christianization a little bit of, especially Sweden, they talk about Gamla Uppsala or Uppsala. When they get to the big temple. Gamla Uppsala, Sweden.
00:49:17
Speaker
This small town, 40 miles north of Stockholm, is one of the oldest continuously inhabited sites in Scandinavia. Beneath this church, archaeologists have found what they believe are the remains of a famous temple called Uppsola.
00:49:35
Speaker
Yeah, the home of the big temple. And beneath the church there, they claim that they found this old temple. And no, they haven't. They actually found the remains of two older churches beneath it in excavations. But there's no old temple found in Uppsala, as of yet at least. yeah there There's actually very few cases where churches have been have been built over cold places. The only one I know for sure is on Frese, up in Jämtland in Sweden.
Wrap-up and Upcoming Topics
00:50:11
Speaker
And under the floor in the Fraser Church, they actually found a birch stump, and that's been burnt. And the animal remains, it seems to have been sacrificed at one point or another. And I think that's one of the few cases where they actually have a cold place that's been used as ju asta Well, where the church has been built on top of the actual place, usually they're just built in the vicinity of the old place to kind of just move people from the old to the new. Yeah, I mean, we have that sort of tradition here in Norway as well. I don't know if you've kept up with the excavation in Stavanger under the Domshirke.
00:50:56
Speaker
No, I haven't really on that. Did they find any cult place? yeah So it's not necessarily a cult place, but they've definitely found traces of old Viking burials underneath the church, like directly underneath it, which is a structure that stood the the church itself, they started building around the 12th and 13th century. um But these these bones, like quite a lot of them seem to be dating to a Viking area and a little bit before.
00:51:22
Speaker
So yeah. I could see that as a way to kind of replace to old called or yeah like the not necessarily to build on top of the old temple, but where people went for cult offerings in a sense. Yeah.
00:51:41
Speaker
I can see, because I don't think they've found a lot of... There's there's not been a lot of structure. It's just been that I think it's four or five graves, if I'm not mistaken, and with quite fully intact skeletons as well, ah but not a lot of grave goods. And I think the main theory is that it's believed to be like in the transition from the Viking Age and over to ah chris more Christian era and Christian christian mannerisms.
00:52:06
Speaker
But there's our pagan graves or are they in between? I can double check that because the art the news article didn't really specify a lot about it because I do also think it's an ongoing excavation, so they don't think they've come out with the report yet. Yeah. Yeah. So i'll be I'll be a little bit careful about stating things as fact before they come out with it. um But I do think, no, they don't mention anything specific about if these are these are specific pagan graves.
00:52:36
Speaker
Yeah, it could be interesting. Anyway, if it's in early Christian graves, it's interesting to to see the Christianization from it. We have a couple of churches in Sweden that's on the brink between the Viking Age and the Christian era where we have this really, really early yeah Christian graves in churches around that era too. One of the oldest stone churches is in Vornheim in Sweden.
00:53:06
Speaker
And it has burials. It's a the church of a very influential family in the areas. It's their family church, basically. But in there, we have found the graves from those living yeah at the farm. And they had ah even tombstones, carved rooms.
00:53:24
Speaker
ah which we also find in, for example, in Gotland. We have several churches that has actually tombstones with the rooms in the Gotland churches. And but what what time period will these be dated to? like where When does this kind of stop and ebb off? he 1300, 1400, the cutoff there. okay I think 1425 is the latest in Gotland, but that's not really a Viking grave, but they used the, you know, runic alphabet still on Gotland. And they do that very long into history. Yes. That's Yemtland used runes basically up till 1904. We have the last inscription known and all of that. So, I mean. Wow.
00:54:10
Speaker
Sorry, I just got a little bit put out because i'm I'm trying to figure out a little bit about the, about if it could have been paying graves in the Dumshik and Stilhong, it's only because it's it's positioned right next to the port. So it would have been a big area where people would have seen immediately. So it could definitely be a a place where people would collect in the town and gather.
00:54:31
Speaker
I mean, it makes sense that we would want to reappropriate it. And if they associate some early graves with the church, I mean, it benefits the church, I guess. Anyway, where should people go if they want to hear more from you? but They can go to my TikTok handle, StefanBuckSidules on TikTok. And I've been thinking about maybe creating a ah YouTube channel that will be under the same name, but I've not gotten around to doing that quite yet. So stay tuned if you'd like to see that.
00:55:01
Speaker
But thank you very much for your time and hope to see you again. Again, a huge thank you to Stefan. And if you want to check out his stuff, there will be links to all of those in the show notes. And next time we will speak with Professor Howard Williams about Viking burial rites and if they really were influenced by extraterrestrial beings.
00:55:27
Speaker
Until then, please spread a word by leaving a positive review on platforms like iTunes or Spotify, or even better, recommend an episode or two to one of your friends. And you will find further reading suggestions at the website, www.ancientaleons.com.
00:55:45
Speaker
and they if you want to support a show you can do that to patreon.com slash digging up ancient areas or digging up ancient areas dot com slash support if you want another option that's not patreon and if you sign up you get the early episodes you get extended episode and you get bonus content you get a bunch of different things and you help supporting the shows because well things cost money books and hosting services a large array of stuff that i won't bore you with but yeah you get every episodes you get a lot of stuff and well you're helping me out and i will be truly grateful for it
00:56:31
Speaker
and I really hope that you also go and visit the archaeological podcast network.com website because they have a lot of amazing shows on this network and they also have a membership if you want to support all the shows in a sense. and But to yeah, if you want to contact me, it can be done through most of the social media sites that I'm on. And if you have ah comments, corrections, suggestions, or you want to write that comment in all caps, you can the most efficiently do that by sending me an email. And my email address is at the website again.
00:57:17
Speaker
Sandra Martelor created the intro music and her outro is by the band called trial screw who sings the song for the hut. Links both of these artists will be found in the show notes. Until next time, keep shoveling that science.