Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
The Arrow of Ambivalence (Part 1) - Trowel 37
402 Plays10 days ago
In this very special romance-themed episode, Ash and Tilly are on the quest to stop love! Or at least, halt Cupid his pesky, cherub-like tracks. Joined by experimental archaeologists, Emma Jones and Dr. James Dilley from Ancient Craft, the group are determined to find the lesser known Arrow of Ambivalence.
Books Mentioned
- Eagles of Empire series (Simon Scarrow)
- Stonehenge (Bernard Cornwell)
- The Witcher series (Andrzej Sapkowski)
- Swordheart (T Kingfisher)
- Lord of the Rings (J.R.R Tolkien)
- The Dark Elf Trilogy (R.A Salvatore)
- Mythos (Stephen Fry)
Links
Contact
- Email: andmytrowel@gmail.com
- Instagram: @and.my.trowel
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode, go to: https://www.archpodnet.com/trowel/37
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
- APN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnet
- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
- Tee Public Store: https://www.teepublic.com/stores/archaeology-podcast-network?ref_id=5724
Affiliates
Recommended
Transcript
A Whimsical Fantasy Opening
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You have my sword. And you have my bow. And my trowel.
Introduction to Episode 37: Archaeology Meets Fantasy
00:00:11
Speaker
Hi, you're listening to episode 37 of At My Trowel, where we look at the fantastic side of archaeology and the archaeological side of fantasy. I'm Ash. And I'm Tilly. And something is rather terrible has happened. Oh no, what's
Valentine's Day Humor and Chaos
00:00:24
Speaker
happened? Love. That's what's happened. Wait, wait I thought that you were a romantic Ash, don't you read lots of romance novels and stuff? Well, I am, but that's beside the point, okay? Have you been outside? It's like the whole kingdom has been taken over by sickly sweet flowers and red hearts. It's actually making me slightly nauseated. Oh, hang on, let me just look out the window. Oh gee, what on earth has happened? It's Valentine's Day. oh Yeah, and you know exactly what that means. That pesky diaper wearing cherub is out again and he's shooting folk with golden arrows. Cupid, no! I thought that he was banned from the kingdom. Didn't the mages cast like a repellent blast on his last year? Yeah, but I think that only lasts like 365 days. So clearly they've forgotten to recast it because you know the mages are useless. And so they're all under Cupid's spell. Typical,
The Quest with Cupid's Arrows Begins
00:01:15
Speaker
typical. Yeah, but I have a plan.
00:01:17
Speaker
Okay. I've been reading in the archives and I found a note regarding Cupid's arrows. Okay, so he has two arrows, one that's sharp and golden for love, lust and everything in between, and then he has another one, a blunt one, lead, and it's for fostering aversion and fear. But okay, but we can't just shoot everyone with the lead one, we'll cause mass panic.
00:01:38
Speaker
Right, okay, fine. Precisely. But if he has both arrows, that suggests that there's another arrow out there, right? One is that a balance in between, okay? The arrow ah ambi the of ambivalence. ambivalence! But where do we find this arrow? I mean, does the note in the archive say anything? It's description, location?
00:02:02
Speaker
I'm already one step ahead of you, okay? Because I've called in some experts and they can help us identify and possibly locate our arrow. Kelly, we meet experimental archaeologists, prehistoric technical experts and founders of ancient craft Emma Jones and Dr. James Dilly. Welcome. Hello. Hello there.
00:02:23
Speaker
Excellent. Oh, that's, then I feel better. We're definitely going to get that pesky, pesky cupid. Thank you so much for joining us today. And yeah, when we, when we originally did this thing, Ash was like, I can't say Tilly meet these people because you know them already. And I was like, it's fine. It's artistic life. Like, we meet them. Then indeed. Well, welcome, welcome back. It's been a while for those listening. You may, if you've listened to your break time travel, shameless self plug here. Remember that both Emma and James came on separate episodes. So do go back and listen to them.
00:02:52
Speaker
But for those who haven't, they have maybe no idea who you are, or they only know the surface who you are. So who are
What is Experimental Archaeology?
00:02:59
Speaker
you? What do you do? For example, what exactly is an experimental archaeologist? Well, and yeah, thank you so much for having us back. oh It's lovely to chat with you both today. I also love the fact that James is going to be talking about the arrow of ambivalence on a love podcast, because I think that's really perfectly suited for him. I think Nothing that gives him more glee than the idea of Cupid or you guys interjecting and running around and trying to stop everyone from being smushy. So yeah, we're experimental archaeologists and I guess James, do you want to sort of expand on what that is?
00:03:38
Speaker
Yeah, so experimental archaeology is a component of the many facets of archaeology. I suppose most people think of archaeologists being stuck in often a muddy hole in the ground looking for all sorts of objects, remains connected to the human past. That can be sometimes animal remains that can help build a picture of the environment that humans were lived in, but generally human-focused. But as well as those field archaeologists that are excavating, there are people who specialize in geophysics, surveying, you name it, and experimental archaeology is one of those components. But we're not often found out in the field. We'll be ah given access to
00:04:24
Speaker
the actual finds or look at a wider structure or even a whole landscape and look at how that site or object came into being through its production, how it was used and how it was destroyed or why it was discarded. So on a i guess a typical level,
00:04:42
Speaker
let's say it's a ah stone axe, for example, we would look at how it was made, why they chose the particular material, what tools are required to work that material to produce similar results to what we found as the actual artifact. And then we would test it to see how it might have been used, because in theory, an axe is an axe, and that's a fairly easy one. But there are so many objects from the past that ah seem a little more mysterious, and trying to work out its function can be quite difficult without testing all of the possible scenarios. And even then, you might not find out. And certainly, if it was an object that was used for a variety of functions, it can muddy the water somewhat. And then by testing them to destruction, we can find out why they were perhaps discarded. ah It might have been intentional breakage to ritually kill the object.
00:05:34
Speaker
ah so it couldn't be used by hands on this mortal coil. It could only be used by otherworldly forces, or it might have just broken because it was rubbish. I was about to say, is this just you coming up for an excuse of like your broken things? You'd be like, no, no, no, I'm testing the ritual importance of it. Also, ritual, we have, listeners, we are very excited to share with you our brand new ritual buzzer, which we're going to test out now and see if this works.
00:06:04
Speaker
thank i want one of themlar great x that's been my morning's work basically We sort of led you into that, didn't we? Just so we could get the buzzer.
00:06:21
Speaker
But the experimental archaeological side of things in terms of kind of where people work, because ah speaking as someone who is slightly involved with experimental archaeology, ah specifically exarch, then like just a little part of my life.
00:06:38
Speaker
One of the big discussions around experimental archaeology that I'm never aware of is whether it is a real archaeology or a real science, and I'm curious what your guys' take is on that. I mean, Emma, coming from a not-so-archaeological-focused background, James, from a more archaeological-focused background, how does that tie into how you experience experimental archaeology?
00:06:59
Speaker
So experimental archaeology by I guess its name on the tin implies that there has to be some kind of experiment and generally with an experiment there has to be controls and variables and have some idea of the parameters of that experiment. So although I've talked about that stone axe and how but finding out how it might have been made and used and broken and all the other parts of its life biography Actually, when you're trying to run an experiment in archaeology, it really needs to be quite focused. So you might look at the specific raw material type and not expand outwards because otherwise it would just be a ah huge sprawling experiment that would be very difficult to control.
00:07:44
Speaker
What you could do is lots of little experiments that are part of a larger research study that all come together, both in a real world setting, actually going out and knocking down a tree with an axe, or in very controlled settings in a lab using something like an impact tower, where you can start to measure velocities and forces and that sort of thing. And you by combining the two, that real world setting as well as the lab based setting, you can start to pick apart how that object works or doesn't work in many cases.
Materials and Challenges in Ancient Reconstructions
00:08:15
Speaker
And I suppose once you start to go outside having a controlled experiment and a hypothesis and a null hypothesis, you start to drift into but what is generally considered these days as experiential archaeology, which sounds very similar
00:08:32
Speaker
But the difference being that rather than experimenting, you are experiencing archaeology. And for both Emma and I, we sort of straddle the two, I suppose, because we attend lots of events, we run workshops where people can come and cast a bronze sword or make that stone axe, or do our own YouTube videos or appear on podcasts. And by you, I'm now talking to you. You are experiencing the archaeology through the sound of my voice. You are part of that experiential archaeology. But so clearly, any time I get the opportunity, honestly,
00:09:16
Speaker
But I suppose the two are quite different in that experimental archaeology, as I said, is not very fixed, but it's very controlled. Whereas experiential archaeology is extremely open and open to interpretation and is very flexible and organic. The two are quite different, but sound very similar. And they work together frequently because you can do an experiment in very controlled conditions in a lab that isn't open to the public, but an opportunity can be identified to provide some kind of public demonstration, or it might be covered by some piece of news, whether it be archaeology news or wider news, and the fact that it's been broadcast out to a wider audience, it becomes experiential. Or, as ah Emma and I have done
00:10:06
Speaker
fairly recently, building a replica Bronze Age boat with a load of ex-service people. That was very much experiential archaeology, but we could see opportunities for experiments within that production. So the two work closely together.
00:10:24
Speaker
I think that The time that we spend interacting with people doing experiential archaeology also helps to feed back into the more experimental archaeology work that we do, because sometimes you'll be, you know, in quite an open context, having open discussions, and ideas will form through that act almost of, you know, as in essence, I guess it's a form of play, um that you can then kind of go, Oh, actually, that's something that is really worthwhile exploring. Now let's go away, set some controls and explore this in a more scientific manner. So we can actually get some, you know, results from this. So I think, yeah, both both of them freed back and forth into one another. And it's quite important for me that we have that balance in our kind of calendar year. And they complement each other really nicely.
00:11:21
Speaker
That's so interesting. I've never actually heard of, how did you say it? Experium. Experiential. Experiential. that see I feel like we need an experiential buzzer. That's a very cool word. I felt like moved by that word. Both mentioned different types of materials. So you've mentioned, you know, boats, axes, stone, bronze. So what types of materials do you usually work with and do you have a specialism in that area?
00:11:52
Speaker
So for myself, I usually work with a range of materials that were used in the stone age and bronze age for creating personal ornamentation. So things that would have been worn for decoration, it also encompasses tattooing and body paints. But for me, I generally looking at jewelry. So that might include ah materials like jet, amber, gold, shale, um bronze,
Fantasy Reading Faves
00:12:20
Speaker
to name a few.
00:12:22
Speaker
It also includes bone. And I mean, there are materials that people are using in prehistory that we don't necessarily have in the archaeological record, things like wood, feathers, seeds that were potentially being used. We just unfortunately don't have anything that can tangibly kind of give us a reference point for me to copy. So I guess while I don't work with those materials as much, they're very much relevant to the area of study that I look at. I like how you just were like, oh, I just have a couple of things like and then proceeded to list like 20 different materials in a wide range of things. Like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, true. Yeah, you don't have that much experience at all. I mean, yeah, you're right. yeah I wrote them down eight. he named a it's Just off the top of it. Yeah, I'll start with these. Amazing. Yeah.
00:13:16
Speaker
i don't know americans That's fine, i just in more. And I guess between, do you both work in similar materials or similar areas, or have you kind of divided and conquered? We have a bit of a crossover, don't we, James? I mean...
00:13:30
Speaker
We both bronze cast um James more so for axes and tool making. I sometimes help with that in the workshop if we need to for orders, but if we're going to produce something for an experimental archaeology project or you know university or museum handling, usually that's James um kind of fulfilling those orders. and In the tool sense, we I guess cross over a little bit with stoneworking while I'm no flint knapper and James obviously is an extremely experienced flint knapper. I do use flint and some of the stones that we use tracks had production in the Neolithic like Langdale Tuff and Bricelli Bluestone and to make smaller, cuter, wearable jewellery for a more modern audience as opposed to a replica. Yeah.
00:14:23
Speaker
So, yeah. Sorry, no, no, no, no. I always figured it's better to pause rather than... Yes. And it's same. Did you have anything to add, James?
00:14:35
Speaker
Yeah, I think Emma's mostly mostly covered it. I suppose my main focus is stone tools and flint knapping as well as bronze casting because I've been doing that, well certainly for flint knapping since I was about 10 years old and the bronze casting came a few years later. So that's generally been my focus and there have been other crafts attached to it, but the area that I cover is ah quite wide, I suppose, because although the Bronze Age is relatively short, the Stone Age is several hundred thousand years long, and although we both cover that.
00:15:14
Speaker
Unfortunately, there just isn't anywhere near as much in the way of pieces ah of ornamentation as there are to stone tools, which makes those pieces of ornamentation that much more special. But it does mean that there is a huge, huge amount of stone tool material out there. And flint mapping is an incredibly difficult craft that takes years and years of practice. And even now, after over 20 years practice, there's still a lot that I have to learn.
00:15:43
Speaker
so that's why i generally deal with the pointy rock side of things i like that the pointy rocks ninety vi and conquerors pointy rocks and jewelry to to be very very summary Now, we have some questions for you that aren't necessarily experimental archaeology based, but we're curious, do you read fantasy books? Do you enjoy reading fantasy books? So that's why Yeah, go ahead. Go for it, James. I generally deal with the pointy rock Oh, side of things. who's going to go break first? I'll take it then. I'll take the initiative.
00:16:19
Speaker
Generally, when I'm working and when I'm napping or preparing to do some casting or making molds, I will be listening to some kind of audiobook. I unfortunately just don't get as much time as I'd like to sort of sit down and read, whether it be yeah archaeological books or as well as fiction books.
00:16:39
Speaker
But I do have some favourites along the way, which ah I suppose will come up shortly. But I think M is much about the same, although she might say that when we're both on long cart journeys for events that we do still listen to a book here and there. Yeah, I would say that past M, the little M that grew up devouring books has, yeah, lost, lost as much time as I once had to read. I would I enjoy fantasy books. But I would also say that I would. Yes, it wouldn't be it wouldn't
00:17:17
Speaker
Oh, gosh, I'm fumbling this one. No, no, no, no, no, no. You don't like fantasy books? anding for it It's all okay. it Secretly judge you for it. one of Like in one of our most recent episodes, our guest also said she doesn't like fantasy. So you know, this is fine. I don't dislike fantasy. I just I wouldn't say that it was my initial go to. I i would say i'm like I'm an eclectic reader. And it features. That's the best way of summing it up. That's fair, that's fair. And so you mentioned some favourites, James, but are they fantasy favourites? Or are you I can, for some reason, when I picture you doing a flip napping and listening to an audiobook, I picture you listening to something very like epic and like serious. Is that the case? Or?
00:18:03
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think for a long time, I've listened to some of these sort of Roman based novels. So it's all Ben Kane and some of the others.
00:18:17
Speaker
But, and it's a strange one because I i often sort of joke about not liking but the Romans or that sort of thing, but there's so few. you dirt well so like the romans But but i do I do love a bit of military history as well. I'm very much a a boy in that sense of ah enjoying a bit of military history. But for actual, I suppose, fantasy novels, my all time favourite is the Witcher series.
00:18:43
Speaker
excellent yes i love the witcher series books league games brilliant so much so that he's modeled his hairstyle you know he's even gone to the commitment of turning gray out of his love of the witcher That's not stress or genetics at all. It's a fashion choice. If your
Fantasy Meets Reality: Cupid's Mythology
00:19:07
Speaker
eyes suddenly turned yellow and cat-like, then we've got a problem. Doesn't his eyes turn black and get all weird veins and stuff? Yeah, when he takes a potion. That's what happens when Arsenal lose this.
00:19:24
Speaker
yeah If the eyes start going yellow, then I think it might be a time for a hospital trip because the the old liver is clearly on the blink. Well, we're in a fantasy setting right now, so nah. Yeah, it's fine. That's just a normal side effect. It's all good. Well, thank you so much to both of you for joining us. but look at oh Oh, did you just feel the ground shake, Ash?
00:19:46
Speaker
Oh no, do you think Cupid has upset one of the gods again? Well if he has, I don't want to know about it. So okay, you guys all stay here, I'll go and activate the Wrathful God wards and we'll be right back. Okay, wards are activated, no apocalyptic events for us in the near future at least. So we really need to find this arrow and as soon as possible. Agreed. I think we should look at a little bit of how we're going to identify this arrow. So let's look at the books. As always, literature review. Got to start with the literature review.
00:20:16
Speaker
so Arrows. Which books have you read that feature arrows or objects? And magical arrows? Objects that cite a person to love? I mean, that's... It's so difficult. I find it really difficult. Yeah. Emerald James, do you know of any examples?
00:20:31
Speaker
Well, definitely for the Eagles of the Empire series, the Simon Scarrow book, there are loads and loads of arrows in it being a sort of Roman-based military series, but not very magical, sadly. kind of Okay. But indeed, arrows, I mean, they are quite a common yeah military weapon, I suppose, up until a certain point. so yeah that And that's what I was thinking. I found a lot of like random arrow objects that were like related to elves and stuff like that. So like the Dark Elf trilogy, which is part of like you know the Forgotten Realms and Baldur's Gate and um D and&D and stuff, they have enchanted arrows and things. But it wasn't necessarily like a very specific arrow like Cupid's arrow. It was actually quite annoying. And again, ah the Witcher.
00:21:15
Speaker
bringing it back to the Witcher. and They have kind of generic magical arrows as well, but it was really difficult to find a very specific arrow. Is there a specific arrow? I was a bit sad when I looked a bit further into Princess Mononoke because they've got an obsidian. She's got an obsidian, what I thought was kind of arrow-like that she wears around her neck.
00:21:37
Speaker
But they've actually, I mean, it's technically a dagger. So I thought that would be a really nice tie in, but term yeah. A bit disappointing. Technically, could you use an arrowhead and strap it to a thing? I mean, you're an experimental archaeologist. Could you use an arrowhead as a bleed of a dagger?
00:21:56
Speaker
I mean, to be to be fair, quite like the blades blade it James makes for the Ertsy dagger look quite so similar to Arrowheads when they're not hafted. So over to you, James.
00:22:08
Speaker
Well, yes, I guess for Utsi specifically, the finders actually commented that had Utsi's ah flint knife not been found with its hand or they would have thought it was an arrowhead. But certainly I think for Princess Mononoke that, you know, wearing a dagger around your neck, that's certain if it's not in a sheath, because certainly when you when you see her, it's visible. So and a small arrowhead you can get away with but anything larger than that is just asking for trouble. and But I guess particularly for Studio ah Ghibli, that's there is that archaeological connection through a variety of their productions and Obsidian being a key part of Japanese prehistory and elsewhere as well. I'm sure Em is going to jump in here with ah one of her other favourites that features perhaps an archaeologist rather than archaeology as such.
00:23:04
Speaker
Yeah, I was just singing in my head. to to toto Yeah, my neighbour Totoro, I guess the dad's an archaeologist, isn't he James? Yeah. I actually have no idea who any of these people are. Have I completely missed out on something? Stop it. You have got to go and watch a lot of films now. um Okay. And what utter joy you're going to have doing. I'm reading this down. I know. but Yeah. you See, Tilly's no agree with animated series. Oh, true. True. fair enough But I mean, I don't mind them, but I guess I just yeah. Oh, just interesting. Okay. All right. Well, give me a go. I think top favorites would be
00:23:50
Speaker
My neighbour Turoto is very like cutesy and sweet. ah business Princess Mononoke was the one I entered James into watching first, thinking, if this doesn't grab him, then I can just forget the rest.
00:24:04
Speaker
um it military based yeah and then Ponyo is another favourite but I haven't forced James to watch that yet but usually what happens is if I'm not feeling very well or you know a bit under the weather James sort of goes so shall we watch boy put puttoro and um It's the comfort, the comfort one. Completely. And that's, and they feature archaeology.
Imagining Magical Objects in Fantasy Literature
00:24:30
Speaker
See, okay, I feel I need to get into these. as I'm missing out on this literature review. here and It's like those, you know, when you suddenly find out halfway through your research project that there's a whole book on the research project that you're doing, like on exactly the same subject. You're like, for goodness sake. What is this? Extra reading. So yeah, there you go. I'm discovering all of these things. But you could also watch Bluey because the dad's an archaeologist as well, because he's a dog and he digs bones. that is the best reason to make James watch.
00:24:59
Speaker
Sometimes when they go into his office, he has lots of different artifacts, like on display and stuff. It could be research, James, it could be, you know, how how have you not brought this up before?
00:25:11
Speaker
what no And neither do I. Very exciting. have got ammunition for a blue bench. And I don't even have kids. Yes.
00:25:24
Speaker
Yeah, there's, I'm trying to think of, so obviously, you know, but what kind of reference I was trying to make Ash when I was trying to think of fantastical arrows. It's so upsetting and you can think of one, Telly. Well, luckily, oh i use the word luckily here, very specifically. So the only thing I could think of was in Guards Guards, which is about dragons, which is a Terry Pratchett book, which if you don't know who Terry Pratchett is, then you haven't listened to enough of this podcast yet.
00:25:50
Speaker
but think I think I've learned more about Terry Pratchett ever in my life, my doing this podcast with Billy. I should read David at my trial, we should read David and Terry Pratchett. I'm Terry Pratchett. P.S. I love him. Excellent, excellent. But yes, the the book guards guards, which is, and they're basically trying to shoot this dragon and Sergeant Colon, who is one of the sergeants in the guard, has his lucky arrow and he's never missed with his arrow and all this kind of thing, but it is the best passage ever because he's saying, no, one in a million chances always work. Like they always have to be pulled off. So it's a one in a million chance. And they're going, well, is it really a one in a million chance? It's probably more of a one in a like five thousand and ninety nine. shot You know, like maybe we need it. So they're trying to add in all of these like extra aspects to make it more difficult so that his lucky arrow can really be the one in a million chance to like get it anyway. So it's a very abusive passage. And that is very.
00:26:48
Speaker
To be fair, that's just made me think. You said a lucky arrow. Yeah. The black arrow in all the rings. The black arrow of course. Used by Bard the Bowman to kill Smaug. Well, it disappears in the end, but that has magical properties. Well, kind of, because it he always says it never fails him, never broke, and it was handed down generations, and then then it disappears when he kills Smaug.
00:27:11
Speaker
It actually disappears, it sort of flitters into nothing. It goes into Smaug's body and then Smaug disappears and then ah it disappears forever. Okay, there you go. What I quite like about that as a reference is the fact that it's an heirloom item and I guess that tie into a lot of what probably, I mean probably more what I look at with the jewellery because we get examples of collections of beads that have varying degrees of use and wear.
00:27:47
Speaker
implying that it's sort of been this collection that's been generated over time and possibly passed down through generation and generation until it eventually kind of ah arrives at its resting place. And I guess it's not quite the same as a kind of epic arrow that's killed a dragon, but yeah. I mean, it's basically the same. that because You are a dragon slayer. ah Let's just do a bit of crafting. Dragon weapons. The meaning that's attached to objects, whether that's as it's, yeah, the sole purpose is for destroying something or connecting people or, yeah, i like a lucky charm, because I guess the Black Arrow is sort of a bit of a lucky charm in a way, isn't it? <unk> It's not really proven that it's magical, but if it never fails, it's sort of got this agency that's attached to it. And therefore it becomes something that and maybe it wasn't necessarily in the first place. But yeah,
00:28:43
Speaker
I like that idea. It builds a mythology around it. It builds its own story. so And I guess for those two two parts that Emma brought up for the connecting and the destroying, for the connecting, a really unusual appearance of a flint arrow is in Batman Begins, the film.
00:29:04
Speaker
When a young Bruce Wayne is playing outside on the grounds with Rachel and he finds a napped arrowhead which she steals from him as kids are playing and that's when he falls into the cave with all all the bats coming out and she later gifts it to him when I guess they sort of re-meet later in life with for the man who could buy and everything.
00:29:33
Speaker
I completely missed that that was an arrowhead. I need to reh- No. Oh no, I'm going to have to rewatch Batman Begins. yeah I really hope we don't have to contact Batman to find this arrow though. Oh, there we go. That's the next episode. We just call him. Excuse me. It's okay, I'll get my light set up and then we can call him. Can we get, we've got the the bat light or the bat alarm or whatever it's called. It'll be a few million lumens required, but I'm not sure. It'll be fine, it'll be fine. It's very good to pass today, so I'm fine. Yeah, it's fine. We'll get the magicians to do it. Yeah.
00:30:02
Speaker
And come on, a really well-known reference to, and particularly stone-tipped arrows, are the dragon glass from Game of Thrones. Oh, of course! I can... Yeah, see? See, I haven't read Game of Thrones. This is why we need to collaborate with other researchers when we're doing this kind of thing, because yeah people know things that we don't, or remember things that we don't, so... Yeah, there you go. Did you say that you have read the series, Ash?
00:30:29
Speaker
No, I have not. I also haven't. i havet watch So I just said that I didn't read that much fantasy, but that's one of the things. You're actually fantasy aficionardo you know don know think anyway is a You don't meet many people that have, obviously, because the series was so popular. I was being probably obtuse. And, you know, when everyone was watching probably into their first second series, I was refusing point blank to watch it until I finished the books because I always didn't have time to read them. Yeah, it was so it was like that horrible feeling of the hot
00:31:08
Speaker
my magical world is going to be destroyed as soon as i glance on whoever they've cast for this person and then yeah forget about it and everything is so much better in my head than and anything that you can pull off in you know because of costs and other people's ideas. It happens a lot with like just the fantasy when it's put into a TV show in general. I think everyone's like, oh, a bit disappointed. Yeah. And go on in the days where I can remember what, you know, Aragon looked like pre-film because it was all kind of happening at the same time, you know, like when the films came out. Who did you see for that recently, Tilly? We had that conversation that it was like supplanted, the film supplanted the characterisation of someone.
00:31:56
Speaker
I feel like they interview someone and they actually talk about that. That as well. Probably. like I like how everyone knows more about my background.
00:32:08
Speaker
We're talking about the DaVinci Code, which I have never seen. And we read it recently for the RK Book Club and I was going, Oh, I didn't, I wouldn't have pictured Ian McKellen as what's his name. I was picturing Brian Blessed, which is a very different kind of costume.
00:32:25
Speaker
Anyway, coming back to the arrow. so So we've looked at kind of featuring magical arrows, but what about then because the specifics of
Cupid's Role and Dual Arrows Explored
00:32:34
Speaker
Cupid's arrow? So Ash, perhaps, do you know, what do you know about Cupid, like itself and his arrows?
00:32:39
Speaker
Well, Cupid is the Roman god of love. In the Greek myth, he's Eros. Yes, of course. And he's often depicted as the son of Venus or Aphrodite, who is the goddess of love, beauty and desire. He has two arrows. Okay. And I've said this before in the in the previous bit, but two arrows have the opposite effect. So one's golden, induces love and intense desire, where the lead one causes aversion and difference.
00:33:06
Speaker
Usually, his role within you know mythology is to control and manipulate love, either by his own choice or often by his mother's request. And then it kind of shapes the mortal and divine relationships. He also has his own kind of famous myth between I would know it's Eros and Psyche but obviously it would be Cupid and Psyche in which and his mother Aphrodite Venus is extremely jealous of of Psyche and her beauty and sends Cupid to make him for her fall in love with someone really hideous but then Cupid actually falls in love. Yeah, what a stupid idea. Like, oh no, this woman is too beautiful and otherworldly. Let me send my son, the god of love, like to go and deal with her. Oh no, they fell in love. Yeah, and there's something like she's not allowed to look at him either. she He's not because of his mother.
00:33:58
Speaker
He married her and things like that, but then she's not allowed to look upon his face. And so she does, she holds a candle to him and then realises, because her evil sisters tell her that she's probably hideous and ugly and disgusting, but she's like really beautiful. He's not a tiny cupid baby. He's actually a man.
00:34:17
Speaker
um are god But basically Cupid's arrows symbolise the uncontrolled and often irrational nature of love, capable of creating joy and heartache. yeah Which then, but then there aren't if you really any other than arrows specifically that look at, and I'm trying to think of even any other objects that are sort of to do with love magic.
00:34:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the the only thing I can think of was really potions, like love potions and traditional kind of folklore. I did think of one, which was kind of, of course I did.
00:34:53
Speaker
To be fair, he has done so much. I can't disparage him. She actually can. Like if I give her a challenge, she can. The one thing I thought of was T. Kingfisher, if anyone's read their books, Swordheart, right? But this was, and this is ah a sword who is cursed, a man who's cursed to be a sword. So actually it's an enchanted object falling in love.
00:35:17
Speaker
Well, you know, and agency, my good object biography. Yeah, imagine that biography. no Yeah, no, because in other things, yeah, I don't... James or Emma, do you know of any examples of of love-related objects in fantasy or other fiction?
00:35:33
Speaker
Good question. I was just going to add that that um we actually listened to the chapter on Cupid in the Mythos Steven Prize book on the podcast last night. Brilliant. ah yeah So if anyone hasn't listened to that and wants to hear the story told wonderfully, then that is definitely a good place to go. I would agree.
00:35:58
Speaker
Yeah, it kind of stumped me. And I guess one of the things that it sent me down a little bit of a rabbit hole, because I'm not a, I cannot claim to be an authority on Lord of the Rings, as many, many people can, you know, are incredibly well read and read. Oh my God, it's like, it's unbelievable listening to whoever you had on the Exarch podcast and the level of detail that people go into interpreting. The Rangers, yeah.
00:36:26
Speaker
Unbelievable. But I guess for me, I immediately thought about the Evenstar that Arwen gives Aragon, but looking into it further, that's sort of not really explained anywhere. It's not something that yeah was even intent like it wasn't intended to be an interaction between Arwen and Aragon from the book so it's something that's sort of been put in place of I think it was the elf stone from the book. Yeah we talked about this actually. That has a slightly different meaning.
00:36:59
Speaker
Yes, we spoke about this in our episode with Dr. Sigrid van Roeder looking at magical jewellery indeed. It was a sort of extra thing that was put into the films to represent the love and to represent ah the life of Arwin, which yeah I found really interesting.
00:37:12
Speaker
But every time I hear Morningstar, like the Morningstar, I just immediately think of, like, Satan, like, that's my problem. Because I think of Lucifer, straight away. And that's probably my upbringing. Because his name's Morningstar, yeah. Yeah, every single time. Fair. Which shouldn't really be in a podcast for Valentine's Day, but never mind.
00:37:37
Speaker
So yeah, maybe maybe someone needs to start
Imagining New Love Magic in Fantasy
00:37:40
Speaker
writing fantasy and actually including these items in it, because it seems like such a missed opportunity, doesn't it? what like yeah We would think today that you know we give gifts at Valentine's Day, or you would show somebody your affection. I mean, obviously, i Cupid's whole deal when he entered into this kind of relationship with Psyche was that he gave her everything he could ever dream of, you know, thinking that she could want. But yet it does seem to be a bit of a gap when you start to look into the world of fantasy. There you go. That's a challenge. That's our challenge. Yeah, we have to write those fantasy books. Sorry, guys. Listeners, you need to do as well. done We are now writing.
Closing and Listener Engagement
00:38:25
Speaker
bety
00:38:25
Speaker
yeah We are all fantasy authors now. Someone out there listening's got to, you know, take the time. Just get in touch with us when you do, because then we can feature it in the podcast. Yeah, and we'll we'll add it in later on. What was that? Was that the letterbox? Oh, I wasn't expecting post today. Let me have a check. Oh my gosh, what is going on? Why is there a six foot pile of pink and red cards at our door?
00:38:55
Speaker
so The Valentine's cards from Cupid. And they smell enchanted. Brilliant. Okay. We need to get these out of the office now. Yep. Okay. Okay. So, right. We need to quickly cut short this episode of Am My Trial, but don't worry. We're going to be continuing next episode with part two of our special chat with Emma Jones and Dr. James Dilly. In the meantime, as always, please do follow, like, subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts. And remember, if you want to support the APN Even more tangibly, you can also become a member and get access to early released episodes, bonus recordings, and all kinds of fun swag. All content information as well as more information on the points discussed today can be found in the show notes.
00:39:37
Speaker
The Archaeology Podcast Network is 10 years old this year. Our executive producer is Ashley Airy. Our social media coordinator is Matilda Sebrecht and our chief editor is Rachel Rodin. The Archaeology Podcast Network was co-founded by Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle in 2014 and is part of CulturoMedia and DigTech LLC. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.