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#ItsPersonal III 91. Namrata Tripathi & Special Guest, chats being a mom, publishing and leadership.
9 Plays4 years ago
Namrata Tripathi stops by with a special guest! You have to listen to find out who it is! We start our chat talking about the many hats that Namrata wears daily. This leads us into leadership, and her role as a VP & publisher at the amazing Kokila, an imprint of Penguin Young Readers.
We spend time talking about Namrata's experience being a mother, and what this looks like (during covid-19), and how it is shaping her relationship with her daughter. What they do together for fun? What movies do they watch? What do they like to bake?
Though Namrata is extremely busy being a leader for many. She finds the time to be an amazing mother and friend. This is an amazing chat with an amazing human being.
Kokila Books: https://www.penguin.com/publishers/kokila/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/tweetpathi
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tweetpathi/
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Transcript
Introduction to Namrata and Uma
00:00:20
Speaker
Welcome back everyone to another episode of It's Personal. This is the first time that I've had a mother and a daughter on this show and I'm so excited for this. I'm so excited. Can you both take some time just to introduce yourself? Sure.
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome back everyone to another episode of It's Personal.
00:00:38
Speaker
I don't know why I do this. I'll go first. Okay, so I am Namrata Tripathi, and I'm the publisher of an imprint at Penguin Young Readers called Kokila, and I'm also Uma's mom who just crawled away. Uma, papa sazara? Uma, you can't run from us. Yeah, could it come back and just say your name? No, she has now gone into hiding almost under the couch. That was Uma Raymond, age nine.
00:01:07
Speaker
She is always welcome to come back whenever she is ready. Because I do have questions for her. And I would love to hear from her coming from a third grader. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because Uma, you know that Gary's a third grade teacher. So he probably has some very good questions for you. Here we go. Ah, there she is.
Uma's Favorite Reads and Interests
00:01:28
Speaker
Uma, what is your favorite subject in school? I think reading.
00:01:33
Speaker
Well, that makes sense. That does make sense, obviously. Can you tell me maybe some of your favorite authors or a different genre that you like to read? What books do you like to read? Well, I love Warriors. Warriors, big in our house. Very popular book. What else do you like? What were some of the graphic novels you've been reading that you like? Hmm. Suddenly I'm drawing a blank too. For a while it was Amulet. Yeah.
00:02:03
Speaker
um the best friends books the Shannon Hale yeah oh fun um uh what was that one uma that we really liked about um the girl and her mom who moving next door to that family uh
00:02:24
Speaker
I'm sure it's on your shop and I could find it. You have no idea what I'm talking about. Basically a lot of comics, I feel like. Yeah. I love graphic novels too. I really love graphic novels. Are you more of like a fantasy kind of, do you like fantasy books or would you say like realistic fiction? So realistic means what's like in real life and fantasy is sort of more make believe stuff in different worlds. Hmm.
00:02:54
Speaker
like Wings of Fire would be fantasy and Anna Banana would be realistic. I'm not sure, I kind of like both. Yeah, I think that's a great answer and I ask that because my students as well have a hard time answering it and they just often say, I love lots of different books and I think that's totally okay. It's totally okay. I have more questions for you, are you ready?
00:03:22
Speaker
Okay. So this question shouldn't be too hard. All right, so this is the question.
Cultural Heritage and Family Memories
00:03:29
Speaker
If you could eat one thing for the rest of your life, what would it be? One thing, just one thing. Seriously? Seriously, what do you think? Yeah, what would it be? I have no idea. You don't have a favorite thing that you love to eat, or maybe something that you can't eat all the time.
00:03:52
Speaker
I don't know. I love to eat so much. Sushi?
00:04:11
Speaker
I actually love pickled mangoes as well actually. I remember one thing when Uma was quite little. You must have been like five or something and her dad made this really nice gnocchi for her.
00:04:29
Speaker
And she was like, hmm. And then we decided that it might be more palatable if we put amkachar on it, which is like such an abomination, but like such a Punjabi thing to do. And so she mixed like amkachar into the bunyoki and ate it all. And then her dad saw it and he was like, that is terrible. And I was like, you're not wrong, but also your daughter is Punjabi. I love it. I love it. Uma, what about movies? What's your favorite movie? Are you like, do you like watching movies?
00:05:00
Speaker
yeah movies and shows yeah yeah so you could say show as well what would you say your favorite show or movie is i don't really think i have okay what are some that you really like like these days what are you watching a bunch she's crawled off the chair
00:05:24
Speaker
You can think about that, Wanoma. Yeah, take your time. There is no wrong answer. No, of course not. Of course not.
Pandemic Challenges and Reflections
00:05:36
Speaker
How are you doing in regards to, and I always ask that question lightly because I know that times are very different in lots of different parts of the world. So you're working and you're a mom and I'm sure you're carrying lots of different hats as well. So how's life going for you? I mean, pandemic life is,
00:06:01
Speaker
I mean, in some ways I feel like obviously like everyone pretty challenging. There's sort of a global weight that I think we're all feeling. On the other side, I feel like really grateful and lucky we've all been healthy. I got my first vaccine this morning. Oh, nice. Yeah, you said, I remember you said- At three in the morning, but I was like, I'll go when I'm told. So that all feels good, but it's definitely been really hard to be,
00:06:29
Speaker
yet UMA is fully remote from school so and I'm not a good teacher right I'm not a third grade teacher I wish I wish we could like fold our powers together and you could just come here and help out because I think you know we just don't have like the knowledge or patience to sort of be a great feature to her so that's
00:06:47
Speaker
that's been hard. And then in the midst of that trying to balance your own work as a professional and then kind of everyone's mental health, your family is your own. So that part is definitely challenging. I think it's hard to be, I quite like a lot of alone time and not having to be out that much. It's been all right. But I miss my people. I never used to talk on the phone, but I miss my girlfriends, I miss my family, I miss my mom who's in India.
00:07:17
Speaker
And I miss my team at work. I feel like it's hard for me to be like a good leader to them. And I think I worry about that a little bit, but I'm trying to be like, you know what? We all had to have the year we had. And then maybe I learned some things from it and move forward. So I think for me, it's been a really challenging year. There's been a lot to kind of hold, but I think I've learned more in this one year
00:07:46
Speaker
than maybe all the prior ones combined. So I think that's a good thing. It is. And Sony, cause I've heard that story from so many people, they've mentioned how, unfortunately with the times that we're living in,
00:08:00
Speaker
they've had time to reflect or go through some things that they would have never gone through. They've learned things about themselves or their colleagues or their workspace or their relationships. And it is heartbreaking on this side, but at the same time, it's like, wow, you can really
00:08:20
Speaker
oddly enough benefit from this as well, which I think it just shows that it also can be a blessing in disguise in a weird way, of course. Yeah, I mean, I think that like.
00:08:34
Speaker
Yeah, when the pandemic started, I was talking to friends and I kind of, you know, you want everything to be, everyone to be healthy and for things to go back or for things to be safe as quickly as possible. But I was really nervous about the idea of like having things go back to normal. So I was like, I think there's an opportunity here for us to really be healthier in our brains and kind of in relationship to each other. And I was afraid that if we went back to the way it was very quickly, I would never internalize the lessons.
00:09:03
Speaker
So it's like, I needed it to be a longer pandemic in order to understand what I need to, how I need to change to go forward. Um, but I'm, you know, heartbroken at what that means for the world. But I think like maybe because of that too, because of the weight of what it means to have like a pandemic going for so long, have so many lives lost, so many people affected. You, you have to take the lesson if you don't, you know.
00:09:28
Speaker
then you've completely sort of, I don't know, it's like, I think it's how, you know, it's how you're gonna honor the memories of all of these people. It's like, if you don't internalize it. So yeah, so I feel like that you're right. That's a blessing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited to talk to you. I remember listening to, is it a year ago now at NCTE?
00:09:50
Speaker
Um, and you did, I mean, be more than a year. Cause last year we didn't go anywhere. Two years, two years ago.
Career Journey and Kokila's Mission
00:09:56
Speaker
Yeah. Two years ago. Yeah. Um, and I didn't know you then I remember just seeing online. Would that be, was that your, was that the first year that the imprint had kind of started or. So we, it might've been 2018. So 2018 was the year we were announced in January of 2018. And then our first books. Pubbed in May of 2019.
00:10:20
Speaker
OK. OK. That makes sense then. That makes sense. And I was interested because I think you share parts of your story. And I'm wondering if you could share a little bit of it now. When I asked that, obviously, you can't tell me that in the amount of time that we have, of course. But can you tell me just a little bit about who you are in regards to family history, in regards to how you got to where you are today as well?
00:10:49
Speaker
Okay, so there's so many ways to answer that question, but I think regards to family history, kind of like what was the journey that got me here? I feel like I often answer everything sort of geographically, just because that's how I think. And so, I mean, kind of similar to how you're a professional life now, right? You're teaching at international schools, you move from country to country. Where were you before? Manila, were you in? Singapore.
00:11:14
Speaker
You were in Singapore. Okay. All right. And were you in Kuwait at all? Did I just make that up? I was in Kuwait. You have a crazy man. How do you remember that? I don't know. I must've, you know, I think I read it when you reached out and I was like, okay. Cause I had, I have, you know, I've never lived in those places, but I have people very close to me.
00:11:29
Speaker
who went to the school in Singapore and the one in Kuwait. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna remember. So yeah, so I, my parents were diplomats for India. And so I grew up moving with them from country to country. So I was born in the Soviet Union. And then
00:11:51
Speaker
They were opposed to Afghanistan, so I lived in Kabul. And then we lived back in Delhi for a couple of years. And then in Ottawa, Canada. So we have Canada in common as well. And then in Karachi, Pakistan. And then in Bonn, Germany. And then my mom and I went to Warsaw, Poland. My dad went to Bucharest, Romania. And my brother came to the States to go to university. And then I moved to New York.
00:12:21
Speaker
in 1997. So I've been here since then. And then my parents kept doing their travels. And so that's where I went to go to
00:12:29
Speaker
to go home for, I mean, longer breaks. I could obviously never go home for like Thanksgiving. Cause my mom was in Zimbabwe my first year, for example, but like, you know, for summers or something, right? That's where I would go to. So I always had this sort of very broad and sort of nomadic sense of home. And so I've been in New York now 24 years, which feels very unusual to kind of settle somewhere. But I think like New York is such a good place for immigrants to come. It's like where people from everywhere end up.
00:12:59
Speaker
So I feel pretty like I fit in in that way. And then, of course, I, you know, gave birth to a little New Yorker. So that feels like ties me to here. And I think and then in New York, I always had was my professional story was I came to to New York to go to college here, went to Columbia, I studied English literature. And then I began in publishing and I've pretty much always worked in children's books.
00:13:30
Speaker
You know, in the beginning I thought maybe I'm not like qualified to be in children's books because I wasn't like a teacher or a parent, but it was just like a level of storytelling that I think makes all of us come to literature of any sort. And then also I love working with like the visual piece of it in picture books and graphic novels. So it ended up being a good fit for me. And I started at Harper Collins and then I worked at Hyperion, which is owned by Disney and then at Simon & Schuster. And then about a little more than seven years ago,
00:13:58
Speaker
I came to Penguin and in 2018 launched this imprint called Kokila which is really focused on kind of what we say like centering stories from the margins and I think it's something I'd always been interested in but over those you know over the last 20 years in children's books have found a little bit more
00:14:24
Speaker
you know, I think along the way I'd sort of been seeing those gaps because you wonder like where do I fit in in this whole story or what do I see as missing and got better at maybe articulating it.
00:14:36
Speaker
And also exerting some of my own power in that process. And you kind of have to build up some chips to be able to cash them. And so I think at that point in my career, I felt like there was, it felt like the right next step because that opportunity didn't exist for me professionally or personally. And also I felt like a real need and desire to do it. And I think if you were at that talk at NCTE, I probably talked about how.
00:14:58
Speaker
launching Kokula came from like a place that was like the intersection of like optimism and rage. And I really that was kind of the sort of underlying
00:15:09
Speaker
drive behind it. And that's that's what I've been doing for a couple years now and we have a great team and we make a bunch of books and we can talk more about Kokula as we go on if that's if that's what we're here to do. You make a bunch of amazing books. I know it's been it's been great. I think the thing is we have won the group like our creative group so it's Jasmine Ruberos our editor
00:15:34
Speaker
art director, and then we've got Zareen Jafri, Joanna Cardenas, and Sydney Munday on our editorial team, and me, and we're now hiring a new person as well, are just, they're all really smart and curious and generous women. So it kind of pushes us all to be a little better than I think we could have been individually. That's what I feel, at least for me. And in this last year, I feel it greatly, where I think they have cared for and pushed me more than
00:16:01
Speaker
could have ever imagined so I feel like you know I got to set up this thing and then I really got to benefit from it when I needed it most so that's been kind of a tremendous gift and then we work with like the best authors and illustrators like the creators we work with are so smart that of course the books are going to be great if you give them space to really be you know their their freest selves
00:16:27
Speaker
we're going to have killer work. So it's been a nice range of
00:16:32
Speaker
range of stuff we've been publishing and I'm really excited for the books that are yet to come as well because we've got just so much good stuff in the lineup. So yeah I'm really proud. That's so cool and it's obviously a testament to the work that you've done as a team because you've built a culture of distrust and it sounds like accountability is super important and if you are coming in and your team is coming in knowing that you are all gonna hold each other accountable like
00:16:57
Speaker
You have, I don't want to say you don't have any choice, but like, of course you're going to create and do things that are wonderful and amazing. Right. So I think that's so nice to hear that not only you are learning, not only your team is learning, but you're also learning from your team, which is.
00:17:14
Speaker
Just really nice to hear from a leader, of course. I'm wondering, what are some of the specific challenges that you've had, I guess, since you've started this position? And that could be anything in regards to the work that you're doing, dealing with other people, et cetera.
00:17:41
Speaker
I mean, I think the challenges probably keep evolving as time goes by. In the very beginning, when I was just trying to launch the imprint, we didn't have the books yet, and people were just sort of learning who we are and why we're doing this, it was kind of not really surprising, but
00:18:03
Speaker
maybe it was unsurprising, that's why it was irritating, like the kinds of questions that I got about like why this needed to exist and what this meant for other imprints and does this mean that only we can do this kind of thing and there was this sort of um there was a real sort of um there's a real zero sum kind of
00:18:25
Speaker
thinking behind it which is ridiculous because we're a tiny team we can only do so much and we're all we're all all our work like informs each other and it you know that kind of thing um and and I'm delighted when there's like great competition for the books that I want because when I want to acquire my books are out in the market because like I want Ooma's bookshelves to be full of many more books than what I can publish um and and even the questions it was a real centering of
00:18:54
Speaker
sort of whiteness, the white experience, the kinds of books that center that experience or the industry that has centered that workforce too.
00:19:04
Speaker
That was, you know, that was not surprising because it's why I wanted to start the imprint. And again, so many other people have done this work too. I kind of wanted just to be able to do it in a way that I could contribute sort of meaningfully. But it was, it was tough. It was annoying to have to answer that question again, again. Once the book started coming out, I felt like that wasn't really an issue. I kind of said like, why don't you see what we do? And then you can let the books and the work speak for itself. And then
00:19:29
Speaker
If there's questions we can pick up on the other side and I felt like once the books came out people sort of understood the caliber of what we were talking about what this sort of process that we built would result in the sort of community we would build.
00:19:44
Speaker
it's a very different relationship. And again, we're still sort of a baby imprint. We're still quite new, but I know other houses are looking at us. I see people across the industry, across our house looking at what we're doing. And that's great because I feel like we get to exert this sort of outsized pressure as a small group in a big house. And so sometimes the challenge there is to kind of, we sort of went at the work really looking inwardly, trusting our instincts, speaking to each other, creating a community of,
00:20:13
Speaker
of thinkers that, that trust one another to make our best work. I wasn't really looking outside to be like, how will I be received? What will they think of the work? How successful would be? It's like, I have to make, I have to define for myself what our standard of success or excellence will be for each title and for each of us, and then work
00:20:39
Speaker
in a very focused manner to achieve it and not get distracted by all of this other stuff. I think as we have more success, some of that stuff will be more distracted because there's more people being like, what are you guys doing? Yeah. And mostly I just feel like I was talking to a colleague and I said, you know, I don't.
00:20:54
Speaker
We're so little, like no one's paying attention. We're just here doing our work. We're like in our little cave. And she was like, your cave is made of glass and everyone is watching. And there is that piece of things. It's like, well, who is everyone? We're children's books, we're in a small industry. But there is a sense of like, I think when you try to do a thing where it's all women of color, we do feel a certain responsibility of being like, don't mess it up because it has broader ramifications for our whole community of creators of color, I think. And that's always going to be a little bit challenging.
00:21:23
Speaker
And it's unfair, but at the same time, like you said, yes, it will always. And it has been that way, unfortunately, for some time. Yeah, people may say, yeah, no one is watching, but yeah, people are definitely watching. And I think you said it. I think it's different when people ask questions out of curiosity and just trying to understand. But then there's a difference from
00:21:54
Speaker
I guess, just being rude or racist or just like all those other things like there's a huge difference and you know just as well as I know like we can call that out and see that very openly when people are having conversations with us so I hope.
00:22:12
Speaker
with all of this amazing work that you're doing, you're handling that very well. And I hope, again, with like your team and everyone else who's having to deal with it, that they also don't have to deal with it as much as they probably do. Because it is unfortunate, it is unfortunate. Yeah, I think the things that come to mind there are like, one, it has helped me to learn that oftentimes
00:22:41
Speaker
like a question from someone else can be such an invitation and a chance to connect. But more often than not, a question from someone else is really just a reflection of where they are. And like what they're putting out in the world, it has quite nothing to do with you. And I think the early part of building this thing made that quite clear. I got a lot of those kinds of questions that aren't really questions, right? They weren't about building a bond, it was something else. And
00:23:06
Speaker
And I think that's changing, I believe and I hope. And then I think your point about.
00:23:12
Speaker
what the team experiences, I think that is one of the biggest challenges I have is just like, how do I make an environment where my group can thrive freely, work in this larger ecosystem of publishing, which allows us to do this work that we care about. But without, yeah, with, yeah, yeah, like how do I, what kind of buffer do I create so that they have the knowledge and exposure and all of that, but also like maybe absorb some of the,
00:23:40
Speaker
stuff that can hinder your creative process. Of course, of course. Yeah, of course. And that's hopefully with time and experience. And again, with the continuous amount of books that you produce that gets better, hopefully, over time. Can you share with me what are some books that you enjoyed growing
Influence of Childhood Reading
00:24:03
Speaker
up? Like, were you a big reader growing up as a kid?
00:24:07
Speaker
I think I read a fair amount you know I.
00:24:14
Speaker
It depends on kind of where I was like in my childhood, like what country we're in. Is it just dependent like what school are you in? What's in the library? What are kids in that country reading? So, you know, I think like when I started out in Canada, there was like some American literature and then some British literature because it's sort of that like cross section, right? And then I remember talking to someone like I didn't read
00:24:41
Speaker
I didn't read Babysitter's Club growing up, so there's all these American classics I didn't really know. I didn't really know Maurice Sendak, even though when I started my first job at Harper, I worked with him, but I hadn't grown up with him in that way. I didn't know Goodnight Moon. I didn't know all these seminal staples of American children's literature.
00:24:59
Speaker
But I remember reading and I wonder, is this a Canadian thing or is this just like, I don't know, sleepover friends? And someone was like, is that some off brand Canadian baby? I don't know if it is. I know the book. I don't know. Is it Canadian? I have no idea. I can't tell. I know exactly what you're talking about, though. I know exactly what you're talking about, though. So it's like, you know, I had like Seuss and P.D. Eastman and those kinds of like libraries you would get when you were a kid and these kinds of things.
00:25:28
Speaker
And then I also had some of the stories that my mom would bring from India, like children's books, and she might read me sort of Indian myths and things like this. Growing up, when I started to love reading, I love like Roald Dahl. You know, I just thought he was like kind of, I mean, we don't need to discuss who he was as a man. I mean, or we could actually, but if you're talking about sort of my reading life, I didn't know about sort of how anti-Semitic he was then. So it's kind of a difficult relationship I have with him now, but like so funny and so wicked.
00:25:58
Speaker
And I got my whole class in Pakistan to like, we like all wrote to him. I was like, we can totally do this. Cause we were all like in grade four, maybe four or five. And we all wrote to him and he and his people or whoever wrote back. It was, you know, not, not too long before he died. So that was amazing. I remember loving as I grew up a little bit more like Cynthia Voigt and like Katherine Patterson, the sort of like more
00:26:25
Speaker
sort of like emotionally resonant children's literature from the States. Like I remember reading like Jacob have I loved and I was like, this is for children. This is incredible, right? Like kind of blew my mind. And then I read like a lot of comics and because they see like, for some reason in Indian Pakistan, we read a lot of Archie comics. I have no idea why these names. Archie's everywhere though. Yeah, Archie's everywhere. So I'm not surprised.
00:26:50
Speaker
Yeah, so read a lot of Archie comics. And then there was a lot of like, um, yeah, which I'm doing with Uma now on the weekends, my mom would read like, Ramayran stories to us.
00:27:03
Speaker
And that was really fun. And so our plan for today, because it's sort of a rainy day here, was to make chai, make treats, watch Great British Baking Show, and then finish out a Mayron book. And then we have the Mahabharas, like children's Mahabharas to start on. And it was just like a fun thing to do on a rainy day. I love that. Get into bed with your tea and then be read too. So it was really a little bit of everything. I love to read. I forgot I read a lot of Nancy Drew. Another book that's still in libraries. Yeah. And it's been around forever.
00:27:33
Speaker
Exactly. So it was a whole bunch of stuff. Again, it was like pretty white American literature is what I got at school. I loved Essie Hinton. I did get some of these pieces of American literature and I loved them. And then it was like when I became a teen, I didn't really know about YA. We didn't really have that in the same way. And so it was just like you start reading adult stuff, like whatever someone gave to you. So sometimes it would be
00:27:59
Speaker
like Western classics. And sometimes it would be like, here's, I still remember like, here's a book about like the hijacking of this flight that went from Canada to, you know, and I was like, Oh, yeah, this is very relevant to my life. So I would read those. So I don't know, it was sort of like whatever, whatever kind of fell into my paws is what I read, but I love to read. Yeah.
00:28:19
Speaker
That's awesome. And I think about my reading life and it hasn't, I think I was such a, I was more of a nonfiction reader for the most part. I would read a lot of magazines, a lot of like facts about, and I don't know how this happens, but I do find that I have a lot of like young kids that come into third grade that just want to know facts. Like they love weird facts and like just like,
00:28:46
Speaker
Guinness Book of World Records. I was always into that stuff growing up. Animal Facts. Yeah, yeah. All those things just really interest me. And I didn't really get into novels because I was introduced to Harry Potter, which I didn't mind, but I didn't love. And then I kind of looked at other books. That's kind of an amazing blurb. It's like, Harry Potter, I didn't mind it.
00:29:16
Speaker
Most, like, I have almost all of my kids love Harry Potter. And I think part of it, because I've been introduced to the movies first, like, for whatever reason. But for me, like, it was, I don't remember reading a book that had people like me in it for, like, the longest time. It's not even picture books. I didn't see books that look like me. And then I started reading, like, why, like, as I got, like, modeled or, like, after university,
00:29:46
Speaker
And I started being a teacher and I was like, oh my gosh, there's so many more books out there that I didn't know existed. And it just kind of changed everything for me. So I'm not surprised by your story at all, because it sounds similar to my bookshelves in elementary, middle school, high school as well. It's only later that you can look back and say like, oh, wait a minute. Like, yeah, there were never any books about someone like me. And it's not like I need to exclusively read them. But there is.
00:30:15
Speaker
there's something that happens when you don't exist in an imaginative world, right? You're like, that's a powerful erasure. And it's fascinating to kind of go back and think about what the sort of deeper effects are on the formation of your mind and imagination, right? That's how it was built. And I think, yeah, I find myself, as the years have gone by, and especially with the work I do now, really looking back at that and finding that with the work I do now,
00:30:45
Speaker
there's so much I have to like push against in my own understanding of the world because it was built in that environment, right? Like on the one hand, I had this like very robust, proud Indian home. So we could be in Germany or Poland or Pakistan and inside the doors of the house, it was India. You know, it was spoke Hindi and English and Indian food and there's Indian music and Indian culture and it was just an Indian home. And so there was a really strong sense of self.
00:31:10
Speaker
and then you walk outside the door and it could be whatever other random country and then you go to school and it was this sort of very American international school environment which is largely pretty American because it wasn't the British school and I think and we call it international and it was and I loved that but it was really white dominant. Yeah and that I think I mean I was thinking about this with you like
00:31:34
Speaker
Did you know that going in, because I think there is sort of a romantic idea about international schools that we tell ourselves that I love and I and I love that that experience of growing up I wouldn't trade it for anything. But I, I think about like what would it have been like if I had the tools, then, like, when I talked to my now and she's like reading a book. She calls out like.
00:31:56
Speaker
racist or sexist groups, especially like this. I love it. We watched like a 101 Dalmatians movie. I think that's what it was. We're like, let's write movie reviews. And she was like, mama, how do you spell sexist? And I was like, amazing. What's going on? I didn't know how to do that then. And I think if I had that lens,
00:32:16
Speaker
It probably would have been a little harder cause it would probably rub up against me more, but like imagine what I wouldn't have internalized, you know, which is a thing that like in our international schools, we love to just like sweep under the rug of like international day. I agree. It's so interesting because like for me, I had been taught in North America. So like my thing was like, I went to school. I played basketball in university. I did my education degree.
00:32:45
Speaker
And I like wanted to travel because I hadn't really had, I hadn't really had a chance to earn opportunity based on finances in my family. For one, I traveled for sports and then international teaching came up and then my.
00:32:59
Speaker
teacher, my teacher, like my mentor was like, you should just like teach abroad. And they're like, you won't have to sub international school. And it was exactly what you said. They say it is like, it's very international, like whatever that means. And then you go to the school and it's like basically an American school. And like, I don't really know because as a new teacher, you're just kind of there. You're getting paid pretty well. And then over time, and I think
00:33:26
Speaker
This didn't happen until I was in Singapore and I did my master's degree. And part of my master's degree was on like cultural responsive teaching, anti-bias education. And then I went back to my classroom and I was like, holy shit, like this is like not good.
00:33:40
Speaker
some of the stuff that I'm like teaching, some of the resources that I'm using are not good. And then I'm realizing like looking at my colleagues and I'm looking at policies and I'm like, yeah, this is not really something that I think I enjoy. And I think it's something that we should maybe have a conversation about as well. And it was harder because like there wasn't as much as, I don't wanna call it a buzz, but kind of like now because it's so,
00:34:09
Speaker
like out there. I guess people are wanting to, I guess they're wanting to change or they're showing signs of wanting to change. But it wasn't there in international schools at all. They didn't want to hear it. There are, their schools do want to, I would say that we are in a school right now that would like to change and they're doing some of the things and then taking the steps, etc. But
00:34:36
Speaker
It's an international school with a lot of American underlining. Our kids have American passports, but they are all kids, for the most part, all kids of color. They are coming from all different parts of the world. They have families that are multi-race.
00:34:58
Speaker
They may go to a school in America, but they may not. But they don't need to see a ton of kids that are white in their books or their texts. It just isn't something they need to see. But if you don't see that going in, that's the only thing that they're going to see in their curriculum and their lessons. So it's interesting. It's a very interesting world. I mean, I think it's like a couple of things come to mind when you talk about that. It's like, one,
00:35:28
Speaker
It feels to me kind of an analog to like liberal culture in America a little bit, right? So it's sort of like the kind of sort of racism that you'll see perpetuated in communities that profess to be really understanding.
00:35:49
Speaker
Like our industry, like, like, like, you know, so much of media, which you will say is left leaning but but also of course is like built in the cauldron of white supremacy because that's that's the air that we're breathing and not being able to see it because you can always point to someone else who's worse. Right. And if you can say that and you're like, maybe I'm off the hook and
00:36:10
Speaker
I think we did a bunch of that in international schools and I can see that. And the other thing is like, I think there's a way of like, do you remember, was it, what is his name? Matt Damon. When there was that thing about like, he got called on like diversity in his, that program. I don't know. I don't know much about Matt Damon. I'm sorry. This is a bad anecdote. You know what I'm talking about. Right. And he was like, he was like, diversity is in front of the camera. Cause like, I think it was like a black woman who was on this.
00:36:35
Speaker
show with him, kind of called him on it, and was sort of like, we're about the producers, we're about the people behind the camera, and he sort of tried to be like, shut it down, and be like, in front of the camera. And I think in a way, we see that sometimes in our schools, international schools, where it's like, oh, we have sort of a we are the world student population, but all of the authority figures tend to be coming from the states and are usually white.
00:36:57
Speaker
And so there's this real hierarchy dynamic built between who makes and enforces the rules, whose rules they are. And then it's like, but all of these like black and brown kids are here. And, you know, and that, I don't know, it's interesting.
00:37:12
Speaker
It is very interesting, very, very interesting. I have a few more questions for you. I could probably talk to you longer, just based on the connections that we have. But I won't keep you. I won't keep you. I guess my other question for you was, and you kind of touched on it a little bit.
Continuous Learning in Leadership
00:37:33
Speaker
How do you continue to learn in order to stay on top of things with your role?
00:37:42
Speaker
Um, is that a tough question? It's not a really tough question. I mean, it's a huge question, right? Cause I'm like, okay, learn.
00:37:50
Speaker
And I'm like, there's so many, I was like, what is learn? What is role? Like first time, do you mean like role like as a publisher, as a children's book editor, as a leader, as a mom? Because those are all things. You carry a lot of hats. So my second question was about the best part of being a mom. So I'll leave that for the second question. But I think more specifically with like,
00:38:17
Speaker
your working job as being an editor, as being a leader, etc. Yeah, I mean, I think like, you know, these things are all probably much more integrated than the way I'm going to try to break them down into these sort of compartments, but just to try to get my arms around the question. I feel like part of my role is editorial, like how am I a good editor to
00:38:40
Speaker
the authors I work with. And sometimes I think, oh, I'm just getting older and square and further away from our target reader. So how am I doing a good job about that? And really, I don't think my selling point was ever like, I'm the coolest person you're ever going to meet who's down with teenagers and knows everything about them.
00:38:59
Speaker
It's like that is just like generationally, that's just a thing that's always going to always going to be a divide there and to try to, I mean, I don't know, maybe a different kind of book one could be kind of get around that for me, I feel like if I can remember sort of an emotional truth with some like an emotional resonance with real with real truth and kind of respect them here in that way and remember what it felt to me to be 9, 12, 15. And to honor that,
00:39:24
Speaker
then I'll bring something to the table, right? So part of it is trying to remember what makes me close to the work because I think other editors might do it in different ways and I would never want to replicate those ways. I want to really
00:39:48
Speaker
hone my way because I'm only going to be good at that. So one way I think is just to be the remain internal and
00:40:03
Speaker
and honest about my relationship with childhood. You know, then there's a piece about like the other part about being an editor is there's the reader and then there's like your creators are authors and illustrators. And there it's, you know, you keep reading, you just keep sort of thinking about new forms of storytelling. That's, I think also comes from just like,
00:40:24
Speaker
I have to nurture my own mind in the world. And if I stay interesting in myself, I'll be really valuable to certain creators, right? Because they'll interact with me and I will give them back something that someone else might not. And that's like the only value I can bring is like, how does your brain work? Does it unlock something useful? With that, I think, again, I think the piece of being internal is quite important for me because I'm not a very
00:40:49
Speaker
I'm not an editor who has like, here's the method I use every time. Like here's my checklist and here's the process. I kind of like want to talk to the creator and be like, what's the thing you want to say? Like what is behind the thing you think you want to say? And do we actually get the truth about it? And really get a sense of like pulling what is important and true out of them. And that comes from being as, I think, empathetic, curious,
00:41:18
Speaker
open as I can be and so in some ways I was telling a friend this that this past year has been in many ways very traumatic but I think living through some of the pain that I've had
00:41:36
Speaker
has been so useful because I think it might make me a more empathetic person, which I think will probably make me a better editor. And I see it now that when I read some things, I read them in a different way than I ever did before. And there's a certain softness with my eyes where I can kind of sink into another level of it rather than before. I was very focused in my mind. I would approach things with a very sharp intellectual edge. And now some of the sharpness has fallen away. And I think it might allow me to help
00:42:07
Speaker
nurture some of a different sort of emotional storytelling. So I think there's a part of that. It's like you have to remain active in your own mind and in your relationship with your own heart if you're going to do a good job there. And then the leadership piece, I am one of those people who like kind of loves like leadership books and courses. Like I'm into that. I don't know. So like whenever, you know, Bertelsman or Penguin Random House, like our parent company,
00:42:28
Speaker
wants to like send me off on some training. I'm like, I'm a joiner. I'm like, put me in. I love going. I love learning. It's like negotiation or like group dynamics or like, how are you and relationship to other people and how can you better serve your team? If it's well done, cause I think there's a lot of bad trainings, but if it's well done, I find it quite transformative. So I think I like being open to that because it's another chance to be like, I can learn and I can be better and it'll probably inform all of my relationships, not just at work.
00:42:59
Speaker
Does that answer your question? It does a hundred percent, a hundred percent. And I love all of that. I love listening to people that talk about empathy. It's something I love sharing in the classroom and helping kids understand. And when I hear leaders doing that, not only just like in the work that they're doing, but like around the people that they're working with, like it just
00:43:20
Speaker
For one, it just makes me feel more comfortable, which is great. But on top of that, it just shows me that you are looking at it in such a way that is taking away so much judgment right away. And for me, I think that's huge. I can't even imagine not looking at something with empathy because it's just like,
00:43:42
Speaker
I don't know, like I have kids in my classroom who are so empathetic and I don't know where it comes from, but they just like, with everything, I'm giving them scenarios. And the first thing they're looking at is like, okay, so how do we take care of that person? How do we take care of that animal? Like, what do we do to support them? And I'm like, how do you, like how does, like at age eight and nine years old, how do you get there? And I think it starts with like,
00:44:07
Speaker
the reflection stuff that you talked about. And I loved hearing how you did so much reflecting and how that reflecting has kind of transformed your way of thinking. That process in itself is just fascinating to me. And I love helping kids try to get there. It's harder with kids, obviously. And they have diagrams and post-it notes everywhere. But I love hearing that adults are doing the same thing because I think that's what allows us to grow to be better people when we do that kind of reflection. I mean, I think about the work.
00:44:37
Speaker
that you're probably doing with the kids like when you say you make diagrams and that kind of thing like I see it in my daughter's school too where like now everyone's talking about SEL right and they have all of these um yeah like posters on the wall about being like what zone are you in how do you get from like the yellow zone to the green zone and like what are these you know all of this sort of stuff about like how you bring yourself so you're like ready to receive exchange with other people which is like kind of being ready to learn and you know
00:45:05
Speaker
and that you are giving kids language to talk about it, which also means that they have tools to identify it. It's so amazing. I was like, can we have these posters all over our office and home and every part of adult life? It's so true. We'd be in such a different place. In some ways, all I'm trying to do is catch up on some of the stuff that you're probably already doing with your kids.
00:45:32
Speaker
Yeah, I'm catching up with them. I'm reading stuff and I'm figuring out things, but I'm looking at it and I'm like, I wish I had this type of language or toolbox when I was a kid, because then I would have been able to... I struggle so much with just feelings in general and sharing them out. If I had any of these social-emotional things when I was in school, it would have given me practice
00:45:57
Speaker
as I got older with relationships with my parents, with friends, et cetera. But I didn't have that. So watching kids and giving them the opportunity to do it now is just it's just fun. It's really fun to see that they're going to have that they're getting the opportunity to at least give it a shot because, you know, like some kids, this just takes longer or they just need to have other needs, et cetera. So I love that was a great answer. That was a really, really good answer.
00:46:27
Speaker
And the last the last question is just simply about being a mom and what is the best part about being a mom for you? I'm sure there's lots of things as well. So so many things.
Mother-Daughter Bonding
00:46:40
Speaker
Yeah, there's so many things. It's funny, because when I were talking about this kind of this morning, how I think one of the best parts is that
00:46:57
Speaker
And maybe it's like I'm kind of responding to what it means to be a mom to a nine-year-old in this moment because it changes so much. It meant a different thing when she was a baby. It meant a different thing when she was four. But what I love now is the kinds of conversations we can have. I think I'm probably a person. I imagine most people are this way, but I actually don't know because we only see the world through our own filter.
00:47:18
Speaker
you know, I kind of joke with my friends that I'm like an intimacy junkie. Like I really want to be like deeply close to the people I'm close with, right? And then everyone else I know. And the reason why it probably vibrates in my body with such intensity is because the rest of the time we're sharpening some pencils. I love it.
00:47:41
Speaker
Because the rest of the time, I believe what I do is keep most people at an emotional arm's length. It's like now we approach the therapy section of our interview. And so I was talking to Uma about this and saying, you know what I love is that now
00:48:03
Speaker
We're at the place where of course I love her as a mom. She knows, you know, she knows me as her, like as a daughter. But we're starting to connect as like two people and we'll have conversations where something will fall away. And usually it's like in bed, like right before sleep when the kind of veil is finished and we're just talking really openly and
00:48:29
Speaker
she and I will reveal like really true things to each other. And it feels so good because you know that you are being really close to someone you love in that moment. And she kind of, she can tell like, and I can tell when she can tell which is what's so interesting. It's like this like really weird but lovely feedback loop where she'll kind of look at me and she gives me a certain kind of eye contact.
00:48:56
Speaker
that's sort of like, I see you loving up on me right now, mom. I can tell she knows it. And oftentimes I'll just be saying something and she gives me that face and she'll stop whatever she's doing. She'll come and just give me a hug. And it sort of says to me, like, she knows what's up. And then I'm like, that is the thing. That's the best part of, it's one of the moments I think is like, makes being a parent so wonderful. And you're like, yes, I'm attached to you as a mother, but really like,
00:49:25
Speaker
you know you're a totally separate person and my job is just to like help you on your way of being that other person and yet we're still connecting and it's in a really true way that feels the best i love that that sounds so good i think it's like uh you're everything and now it's like you're it's like this really close friendship like you're
00:49:49
Speaker
friends as well. Like you're all those things and you're also friends. And for her, I love eight, nine year olds, like just developmentally. They're like my favorite people in the world. Like they are starting to become interested in things. They can start to share their feelings a little bit more. They can say no, which I think is like so important. Like they are able to start to really advocate for the things they need.
00:50:16
Speaker
Yeah, I love hearing that you're having those conversations with her. I push my parents as much as possible to dig and have conversations with them about everything. And I think they do know whatever that look is, I think all kids can get a sense of when their parents are
00:50:38
Speaker
feeling something or sharing something that's important. And I love that you guys have that because it just, I think that bond is really cool. And I'm sure she really appreciates that as well. Yeah. She gave me a little nod. It was really nice. I thought she'd look up and be like, what the heck? No.
00:51:00
Speaker
I want to thank you and Uma even though she's like in the background right now. Yeah, Uma do you want to come say bye? Yeah, come say bye. It was so much fun. It was so much fun. Where is she? Ah, there you are. Rockstar, thanks for hanging out. Now you're hiding. Why are you hiding from me? Oh, there you are. Uma, thanks for hanging out with us.
00:51:28
Speaker
Are you gonna do all my podcasts with me now? I guess. We're two for now. Yeah, I think he is great. And now you get to, you sound like you have an amazing day ahead of you. Baking and binge watching. Nothing wrong with that. I'm into it. It kind of sounds like a great day to me. Same. Who's gonna do all the baking? Eh.
00:51:58
Speaker
It's funny too. We're going to do baking, even though we don't actually have working gas in our apartment. Um, so we're going to manage with a toaster oven, a hot plate, whatever it can be made a toaster oven, a hot plate, a fridge. So it might be not be break any, it's just going to be treats that are minimally heat related.
00:52:18
Speaker
creative we're gonna figure it out it's gonna be good creative right a lot an icebox cake yeah icebox cake what's that maybe i'll put the copy so we're gonna find out where can people find you online
00:52:37
Speaker
People can find me a box, basically. It could be if it were like a light chocolate. So I'm not super active online, but
Advice for Aspiring Writers
00:52:53
Speaker
I'm there. So I'm at Tweet Pathi.
00:52:56
Speaker
like Tripathi, but with the word tweet, which I thought was incredibly clever when I first got on Twitter, only as I did as a joke for an author friend of mine, it was Corey Whaley, he was like, you should be on here. And I was like, I will be Tweet Pathi. And he was like, this is perfect. So I was like, this is my gift to you. I hardly ever tweet, but on Instagram as well. But also Kokila or Kokila books is on Twitter and Instagram. And
00:53:19
Speaker
a little bit on Facebook. I feel like Instagram is a good place to know about what we are doing, some of the books that are coming out, interesting things our authors are up to. That's probably what's more fun than- What about people? And this is, I don't know if you can answer this quickly, but if people are looking to submit things or just wanting to write in general, what quick advice could you share with them? Yeah. I mean, if they want to submit things to us, they feel like we'd be a good fit. If you just go to our imprint page,
00:53:50
Speaker
So just search like Kokila penguin. If you just look that up, you'll probably get to our imprint page. And there are, there's all the instructions for how we do an open submissions period every fall. So if you don't have an agent, it's no problem. And you can submit as long as it falls within the guidelines of what we're looking for. I think it's between September and December usually. And then we spend the rest of the year kind of reading all of the submissions we get.
00:54:15
Speaker
And we've acquired a number of things through the open an agent call. So that might be a thing to do. And then if people are just starting to get into writing I mean there's so many different organizations to join and we could get into that but I feel like people probably know like
00:54:30
Speaker
SCBWI, there might be other orgs that are more focused on communities of color. So depending on sort of what community you come from, Twitter is a good place to find those folks. And I guess for writers, the thing that everyone always says is read a lot. And I think that's probably very, very true. I think that'd probably be super important. But hopefully that gives people a place to start.
00:54:55
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think that's perfect. I really do. And I do think I love that you said just like online in general, like Twitter and like, like
00:55:06
Speaker
SCS, all those things are so important. I think they're accessible to people just through the internet. So I think people should use them because there's people talking about writing and how you find agents and talk to publishers and get help. It's out there if you really are interested. So thank you. That was perfect advice.
00:55:31
Speaker
I would also say DV pit. If you're like a diverse creator on Twitter, there's a, you know, hashtag DV pit with it twice a year. There's a chance to pitch your book and then see if you can connect with an agent and then that agent can see if they connect with an editor. So it could be also be very helpful if people are. Oh, that's cool. I didn't, I didn't know about that. What is it called again? Sorry. DV pit, the letter D the letter V P I T. So in the start by.
00:55:54
Speaker
Beth Phelan, who's an agent here in the US and started this some years ago. And it's helped a lot of people get their work in front of agents and editors and then begin their path to publication. So there's lots of things like that that exists. There's so many people doing really good work. That's so good.