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Yeah, I’m Thinking I’m Back
63 Plays2 years ago
G'day! We bring a very special guest out of Retirement! We are joined by founder of Pack to the Future Brian Fonfara! We catch up with Brian, talk about the RB situation in the league and take a look at our all-time Packers offense!
Please gives us a follow and give us a like! Also, if you would drop us a line and let us know what you think!
Please gives us a follow and give us a like! Also, if you would drop us a line and let us know what you think!
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Transcript
Introduction to the Outback Packers Podcast
00:00:12
Speaker
So,
Meet the Hosts and Guest
00:00:28
Speaker
G'day, everyone. Welcome to the Outback Packers Podcast, the podcast where two mates from all the way across the world have a yarn talking Packers football and the green and gold. I'm Nick Gregory, joined by my co-host, as always, Iowa Joe. Today, welcoming on the father of Pack to the Future pod, Brian Fonfara. Brian, how are you? It's always nice to be in the company of, you know, kind of podcasting royalty here. How have you been? What's life been like since letting go of Pack to the Future and kind of focusing on your own stuff?
Brian's Transition from Podcasting to Fatherhood
00:00:57
Speaker
Well, it's going a lot better now that you call me royalty. I like that. No, things have been good. I miss being on the mic. Glad to be here today. I retired, if you will, for fatherhood. And now I have two little girls and they are my life and that was fun. So yeah, I've been happy.
00:01:20
Speaker
Brian and I have a little bit of a history. Cause when I originally tried to get into podcasting, he was one of those that stepped up and helped out a little bit with it. So, uh, we have, or there was a little birdie that kind of whispered in my ear saying, well, Brian's kind of itching to maybe guest star or guest spot on some shows. And I was like, well, you know, I know the perfect way to get them back into it. So there you go.
00:01:48
Speaker
I don't know if I want to mention the little birdies name because he seems to get big whenever we mention it. So.
The State of NFL Running Back Contracts
00:01:59
Speaker
Yeah, so kind of every every every week we start the show, we kind of like to see what's going around the NFL. Obviously, you know, we're just about to emerge from the depths of the offseason in the training camp. But something I do want to kind of talk about here, guys, is this whole running back contract thing, you know, it kind of seems like
00:02:17
Speaker
We're at a really tough spot in kind of the cycle of the NFL and contracts. And this really ties into like the rookie contracts and the NFL CBA. So the deadline for franchise tag running backs to get a full extension has passed and no one was extended, right? So yeah, like I said, we're in kind of this weird spot where running back value has never been lower.
00:02:43
Speaker
But you know, that doesn't mean that there's not extremely talented running backs in the league. I mean, where are you guys at as far as paying these guys and you know, they're just their value in general. Me personally, it like, and this is kind of sad. I really hope Aaron Jones sticks around for a bit because I was looking at some of the numbers for the top, which we're going to do later. And like him being our best running back of all time is totally not out of the question.
00:03:11
Speaker
But I'm fine with paying a running back still, but he's got to be, he's got to be an Aaron Jones, Alvin Kamara type, like, you know, Christian McCaffrey is the king of it. Like you can't just be a straight up runner. Like you look at the fourth overall pick being spent on Zeke Elliott and now he's not on that team anymore.
00:03:35
Speaker
a 15 year career and to get paid. And it makes sense. Pure, just straight up runners are easy to find in the draft. So yeah, you have a value.
00:03:47
Speaker
Yeah, they definitely have to be a special talent to be able to get that second and third contract.
Injury Risks and Career Longevity for Running Backs
00:03:54
Speaker
But I did catch a clip and I thought it was interesting that JC Tredder, who's the president of the NFL PA Union, without actually coming out and saying it, said something like, I wouldn't be surprised to see players start, quote unquote, being
00:04:16
Speaker
injured without actually being injured when it comes to like the franchise tag and stuff like that and I really thought that was interesting because you know I can understand it you know running back is a player too and they're some of the hardest working players on the team because there's so much of it that they have to do it's not just running between the tackles it's
00:04:38
Speaker
you know you've got to learn pass protection you got to learn you know receiving and running and you got to know the different uh gaps to hit and it's just there's a lot of work into it so
00:04:52
Speaker
I'm not for faking injuries because we've all, you know, as Packer fans, we've known, you know, Martellus Bennett, you know, got his way to get his way out of Green Bay. So I'm not for it, but I can understand it when teams aren't valuing that position. They use them for four years and say, all right, we're done with you. Or we throw a non guaranteed franchise tag on you.
00:05:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like some of the things that I've been saying, you know, and obviously the CBA has, it was only just signed a couple of years ago, but you know, people are really pushing for the rookie contract to be shortened to kind of help them with that, right? Because like you said, you know, they, you're getting someone who can run, they kind of just run these guys into the ground. And a lot of the time they aren't extended or, you know, this, sometimes they can even be released if they get an unfortunate injury early in
Running Back Value and Changes in NFL Roles
00:05:48
Speaker
their career.
00:05:48
Speaker
And it's a tough one because I guess, you know, the way that the game is played these days, you know, running back is inherently less valuable, I guess, you know, in terms of like, how replaceable they are. But yeah, you know, like I said, like I said at the top, that doesn't mean they're any less skilled. And they kind of fill a different role in today's NFL. You know, you don't really see the bell cow back anymore. There's no guy really in besides like Derek Henry, who still wasn't really as big as someone like Adrian Peterson's back in the day.
00:06:13
Speaker
Like no one's really running the rock that much a year anymore. So it's, it's a tough spot. Um, you know, and it's like, if you, if you had a kid who wanted to play in the NFL, you have a tough time, uh, letting them play running back, knowing what kind of awaits them. Right. Right. If you had a kid in the NFL, you'd want to put them on like the offensive liner as a quarterback, because those are the two positions that seem to be able to last longer in the league than any other position.
00:06:42
Speaker
Uh, Brian, I know you got a couple of kids. What are, what are your, uh, if you had to get them going to train them to get in the NFL, what, where are you putting them? Long snapper. There you go. You still get to retire a millionaire. You like the injuries for long snappers are non-existent.
Innovative NFL Salary Cap Ideas
00:07:04
Speaker
Like, I mean, seriously, like.
00:07:07
Speaker
looking back, I mean, I'm nowhere near the size for it, but you just start snapping the ball when you're 12 and don't stop until you're 40. Boom. You just carved out a nice career. Yeah. I didn't even think about that one. In terms of longevity, they have to be up there. Hey, like even like, you know, kickers eventually kind of, you know, they lose their leg, but like you're a long snappy because you can, you can last a fair while out there. Well, what was it? Uh, Rob Davis had like a, or was it, um,
00:07:36
Speaker
Which one of them that went on to be like a Packer exec had like a 14 year career as a long snapper? Was it Rob? Yeah, they just forever. So I didn't even think about that one, but yeah, you're still making a ton of money and you don't have all this and you don't even have to play the whole time. You go in for like maybe a dozen plays.
00:08:06
Speaker
You do one thing. Yeah, that's it. I'm the subject of CBAs though. The idea I used to float on a Pack to the Future podcast and would still just love to see is kind of the MLS model. And for those who don't follow soccer, MLS CBA allows for, I think it's now two. They're called designated players. And what those players get paid don't count against the payroll.
00:08:31
Speaker
So like you could go pay Aaron Rodgers 40, $50 million a year. My home's, you know, 80, 90 million and it doesn't count. You have still all that cap space to pay people. And suddenly it's not that big of a deal to pay your running back. And if you've got a guy like Derek Henry, who's not a huge asset in the passing game, you can afford to keep him around. I'd love to see something like that. That would be interesting.
00:08:54
Speaker
you know, and it would still allow for the salary cap to be there. I mean, it would start hurting like some of these teams that, you know, let's just say the Packers the last few years where they've had the top corner, the top tackle, the top, this, this, and this, but it would have been a lot easier if you could have socked, you know, Aaron's contract and, I don't know, Bakhtiari's contract for not counting against the cap.
00:09:24
Speaker
That'd be interesting. I could go with it. Yeah, I feel like if you have that rule, you probably have to limit it to no quarterbacks because I feel like it'd probably be pretty easy to kind of sidestep a lot of stuff.
Criticism of the Franchise Tag System
00:09:35
Speaker
But yeah, one of the ones that I saw that I thought was interesting is just, you know, pretty simple, just changing how the tag is calculated for running backs and like stopping teams from being able to tag players multiple years in a row.
00:09:50
Speaker
Which I think is already like pretty fucked up. I mean, you know, the whole like the Kirk Cousins thing, how many times he got tagged and like the fact that you can play on the tag, not have a deal, get injured and then get tagged again. It's pretty, it's pretty like pretty team friendly, we'll say.
00:10:08
Speaker
I would be all for getting rid of the franchise tag period. I know it's easy to say you like it as a fan because, you know, it's so easy for just everyday fans to say, Oh, we'll just tag them at the end of the year. We'll just tag them at the end of the year. But you know, it's not that simple, but like you just brought up, make, you know, these players that are getting multiple tags. And I just, I would love to see the franchise tag just go, but I'd be down for Brian suggestion or.
00:10:37
Speaker
you know, I wouldn't want to completely do away with the salary cap, but I would like to see maybe like a baseball tiered salary cap that if you hit a certain threshold, then you've got to pay a certain luxury tax or something like that. As long as we're stealing stuff from other leagues, what about the way the NBA like you can do a sign and trade?
00:11:03
Speaker
Now, like, we can't afford to sign this free agent, but if we send you Devontae Adams, you sign that free agent for us and send them our way. Something like that. I mean, I think there's a lot of ways and especially since trades are much more prominent in the NFL right now than they were 5 years ago, 10 years ago. That could be fun. Lean into it.
00:11:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there's multiple things that they could do. I would even be for, and I know this is kind of a circular way to get to it, but I think the NFL really needs to have a minor league system like the NBA has now and like, you know, not necessarily like Major League Baseball.
00:11:42
Speaker
but to incorporate like the USFL or XFL or whatever as their minor league team.
NFL's Potential Development System
00:11:48
Speaker
And then you could even do like trades like that, or that would allow you to keep some of your draft picks without it counting against your actual salary cap. You can say, all right, well, you need time. We're going to assign you to this contract, but we're going to put you down here for a while. And then if we got to call you up, then it kind of counts against our budget. Yeah.
00:12:13
Speaker
Yeah. And like, and then NFL is kind of like, you know, softly doing that. I mean, you know, perfect example is the, I've got his name, the pack of signing the, the NBA, the super bowl, well, you know, the USFL bowl MVP as the quarterback. Um, but yeah, because they kind of, they kind of are doing it. And there's a lot of, a lot of teams who have players who either started or are like second stringers who would directly rip from those leagues. It's just not an official affiliation, but I totally agree. I think there's no harm in getting more guys in the system and especially at some of these positions where
00:12:43
Speaker
it's always so dry like offensive line you know there's always a drought of offensive linemen in the NFL and you know you can never have too many good like cornerbacks or anything like that you know special team is there's always use for bodies in the NFL so I think yeah I think that that I do agree yeah what is his last name is it I saw somebody put up a picture of Mr. Magu so is it like McLuh or Magoo like I thought it was like McGough maybe I don't know
Packers Draft Picks and Roster Competition
00:13:10
Speaker
I know it's one of them odd sounding or spelling last names. Could it be? Yeah, Alex Mcgough. Okay. But yeah, definitely.
00:13:24
Speaker
I know a lot of people, I saw, was it from Wisconsin Sports Heroics that somebody had an article that one of the Green Bay Packers draft picks are already in jeopardy of his position and it was all because they were talking McGough and they said Sean Clifford's position. It's like, come on guys, are we really that far into reaching into this? There's no, this is like... I always hated the offseason.
00:13:54
Speaker
This is like the Kurt Benkert signing. I love Kurt to death, but he's not going to come in and be a Super Bowl MVP right away. There's a reason why he's playing in the USFL. It's because he wasn't ready to step into the NFL.
00:14:09
Speaker
I will say it is nice to see Jace succeeding as well. He was obviously the biggest offensive player for that team. I was a massive believer in Jace and it's kind of sad things that didn't work out with the injury in his rookie season and some of the kind of character issues or whatever that happened. It's really nice to see him succeeding.
00:14:30
Speaker
Definitely. I was very
All-Time Packers Offensive Players Discussion
00:14:32
Speaker
high on Jayce. There's actually audio from my old podcast where we watched the draft pick live and we were very excited for that pick. And it's pretty, you know, between, like you said, the injury, the kind of off the field stuff that he had a little bit. Um, it's nice to see him succeed and I'm hoping he can come back into the league and have a chance. You know, I don't think he ever really had a fair shake at it.
00:15:02
Speaker
So what do you think? Should we jump into our topic for the day? Absolutely. Unless anything you want to talk about, Brian, going around the NFL? No, man. Let's do it. Brilliant.
00:15:15
Speaker
So cool. So we're going to kind of go through our all time offensive 11 here. And so for the purpose of this exercise, we've kind of played with somewhere in between 11 personnel and 21 personnel. I personally don't have a fullback on my list, but I know some, um, I know that Joe is very keen on it. So why not start Joe? Just run us through your signing offensive 11 players best of all time for the Packers.
00:15:41
Speaker
All right. So like we were talking about before we started recording the, I have a feeling a lot of us are going to have, or all three of us are going to have some similar things. So, um, and the only, and obviously my quarterback is going to be Bart Starr. You know, I love Darren Rogers and all that. And I think he's one of the greatest players that ever dawned to Packers uniform. And I think he's one of the greatest players to ever play in the NFL.
00:16:06
Speaker
But I think Bart Starr was that complete leader. Uh, you know, the multi multiple championships, the, he was basically the guy that ran the offense for the Lombardi era teams. And he was the quintessential field general. So he was my guy. Um, and then I'll real quick run through the rest of them. Uh, for running back, I had a Mon Green.
00:16:30
Speaker
A full back, I kind of cheated. This way I could run my two back set. I put Jim Taylor as my full back. Tight end, I had Paul Kaufman. My two receivers, I had Don Hudson and Donald Driver. And then my starting offensive line is Forest Greg, Jerry Kramer, Larry McCarran, Fuzzy Thurston, and Ken Riddickers.
00:16:58
Speaker
All right. Well, it's something I will disclose as well. Being a younger person, my list is probably going to be a little bit biased towards the past 20 or 30 years. But yeah, I mean, it's so hard to argue with some of these names. I mean, like, yeah, I think we should go through it probably position by position just so we can all stay on the same page. But I mean, yeah, I mean, it's really difficult to argue against any of the big three quarterbacks. Brian, where are you at on your list?
00:17:27
Speaker
This has got to be Aaron Rodgers for me. We're talking the only competition he has for most talented quarterback of all time is Patrick Mahomes. And I think he's got to do it a little bit longer first. I mean, just look at the numbers. He's got double the passing yards of Bart Starr. And I understand it's a different time, but you've got to take some of that into account. We're talking triple the touchdowns and fewer interceptions in just about twice as many games.
00:17:58
Speaker
The dude completely changed the quarterback position not long after Peyton Manning had already changed the quarterback position so crazily. I know it ended in him being a freaking weirdo, but I don't know. He didn't defile any welfare systems or anything.
00:18:21
Speaker
I don't know. I hope Jordan Love can retire with some dignity. But I think Rodgers is too talented and he's got every single number on his side, except for the Super Bowl championships, which is the only reason that I don't dismiss a discussion about Bart Starr.
00:18:40
Speaker
Yeah.
Debate: Aaron Rodgers vs. Bart Starr
00:18:41
Speaker
And I think, you know, it is so fascinating that the packers have, sorry, the packers have three quarterbacks that in their own era could each be considered the GOAT, like, which is absolutely just mind blowing. You know, and obviously, you know, the whole cultural thing with Farr was such a big deal. And obviously Bart started doing it so early also, such a big deal and, you know, starting kind of the revolutionization of the offensive game.
00:19:06
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, I'm with you, Brian. I can't argue that lethal killer efficiency from Aaron Rodgers. Even aside from all the tricks and the cool wow throws and the run and all stuff he can do outside of the pocket, just his mind and his accuracy and this like that.
00:19:24
Speaker
the the the confidence to go for it and those big moments and this you know because people one of the big arguments I used to get with a lot of people is that you know uh Aaron Rodgers is like always super risk averse and he doesn't you know doesn't take risks but that's not like it wasn't true though I mean obviously he was tentative towards the middle of the field but it wasn't that he was afraid of making some of these throws on the outside it's just that he was just so good that
00:19:49
Speaker
It's, you know, it seemed like he was like avoiding some of these throws and he would, you know, it seemed like his interception total was just so artificially low. But if you watch some of those games, he's taking risks all the time. He's, you know, he's getting in these like tight, tight windows and it's just absolutely like mind boggling. I mean, you go back to that 2020 season and just, just the first game, man. I mean, that's like some of the most incredible quarterbacking you'll ever see from anyone in the history of the game.
00:20:14
Speaker
And he's just absolutely tearing through people. And, you know, again, he's throwing it right next to the defender's heads. He's getting it in between the linebackers. And it's just, it's beautiful to watch when he's on. So, you know, I have a tough time not picking Rogers here as well. And like I said, there's no wrong thing. Yeah. Oh, go ahead, Brian. Sorry. Okay. Oh, I remember a lot of the people that were
00:20:37
Speaker
criticizing him for being risk averse, would also criticize him for certain throws that we look at as great throws, but they're like, oh, he just got lucky. Like the run the table year, he had this throw go right through the hands of a cornerback, right into the hands of, I'm gonna say James Jones, for this long touchdown that nobody saw coming. And the next day, everybody, you know, on Twitter, running through their film and everything is like, oh, see, this really wasn't that good of a throw.
00:21:07
Speaker
You can't have it both ways. Is he risky or is he too risky and getting lucky? Right. And like I said, there's no wrong answer here. I just went more with the field general and you guys went more on the talent side. So there's no wrong answer. I mean, even you could throw Brett Favre in there just based purely on his career. I mean, you can't say much about his off outside of the game stuff.
Comparing Quarterback Achievements
00:21:35
Speaker
um you know just career wise you could throw them in there but yeah i went more field general and you guys went talent and um stuff i mean it's it's the same as it's the same as when you debate like rogers versus tom brady and like you look at the rings and that's kind of all the argument you need like right you can win an argument just by saying yeah he won a bajillion of them like show some respect there's nothing wrong with that
00:22:04
Speaker
Little surprise, nobody said Matt Flynn, but. It's wise. No one said to Sean Kaiser. I mean, man, you know, that Jamie started to get, well, you know, if you grew up in the eighties or maybe late seventies, you get to through Lynn Dickey in there. I mean, come on now.
All-Time Packers Running Backs
00:22:24
Speaker
So like this next segment, do you want to get to wide receiver first or running back first?
00:22:29
Speaker
Uh, let's go ahead and do the running back. Cause I can slot the running back full back in there. So go ahead with your guys since I've already kind of mentioned mine. Yeah. Brian, do you want to stop?
00:22:43
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think there's any surprises. I didn't play the game and put Jim Taylor at full back, so I just had to put him right running back. The numbers all speak for themselves. Inkamon Green definitely deserves, at the very least, an honorable mention, just being the all-time yards leader, but then you look at Jim Taylor
00:23:04
Speaker
I, in what, 15 more games, he had 27 more touchdowns, like absolutely insane. The man was on a different planet. Like he's, he's unbelievable. I don't think there's, I don't think there's a true debate there. No, there's not.
00:23:24
Speaker
All right, Jung, and what's yours? Who's Jim Taylor? No, yeah. I mean, like you said, for the same reasons, in an era where that is how you lived and how you died, I can't help but have such respect for those guys. I mean, yeah, I can't argue against Jim Taylor. Like you said, shout out to Amman Green. For me,
00:23:48
Speaker
being the young guy, I think it's really hard to sometimes recognize real greatness when you're kind of in the midst of it. And, you know, granted, Aaron Jones has not been used as much as he probably should have been, whether that's because of injury or coaching. But I mean, in terms of just raw efficiency, his numbers are mental.
00:24:09
Speaker
I think, I'm not sure if he still has it, but in like leading through the season, he had the higher, he had like over five yards per carry average. It's still even, you know, even through those years where he was getting used less and some of the shotty interior offensive lines. He's a guy that can do it all. I mean, really he's the perfect modern running back in the NFL. Fantastic vision.
00:24:31
Speaker
great contact balance. He can he can catch obviously he's a fantastic receiver. He can block which something that people don't always talk about is that he's a fantastic blocker. And yeah, and he's just like he's such a perfect team guy as well. I mean, he really has the whole package and I think
Evaluating Aaron Jones' Potential
00:24:48
Speaker
If he was on a team that really wanted to ring his bell more often, I think he would have a lot larger numbers to go with that. And you see it in some of these games where they do rely on him. I think of that Kansas City game a few years ago, pick and choose any Cowboys game you want where he destroys them. He's such an exciting, fun player. And he was probably the best player on our offense last year. Yeah.
00:25:13
Speaker
Both of them are great. Obviously Brian and I were thinking a little bit the same I just kind of cheated the system a little bit But I went a mon just because of like Brian said that he's got he you know He's the the franchise's leading rusher.
Amon Green's Legacy with the Packers
00:25:30
Speaker
I think he even holds he still holds the record for the longest touchdown run for the Packers at like 99 yards or something like that and
00:25:41
Speaker
and you know what's that remember that day that was a big day yeah it was a it's a great run i mean
00:25:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's and you know to think that he was just kind of a cast-off from Seattle You know He was just this fumbling machine and then he turned into the Packers greatest You know the biggest asset for years So it just it made sense for me to go like that and then like I said I just cheated the system so I could put Jim Taylor and but in my mind I
00:26:19
Speaker
I have Lombardi as my coach, so we would be running the two-back system with the packer sweep going on.
Ideal Packers Running Back Duo
00:26:26
Speaker
So you need your thunder and lightning. And what better thunder and lightning than getting Amon and Jim Taylor? Oh boy. Yeah. I'm also just looking deeper at Aaron Jones's numbers now and just
00:26:41
Speaker
Like I alluded to three more seasons here and he might be our leading rusher on top of that. He's at 1800 receiving yards for his career with 17 touchdowns. Like the dude's got the numbers. Yes. Um, and yeah, he is, he is still at 5.1 yards per carry for his career. Yeah. Nice. Good. That's kind of like, that's kind of like a magic number.
00:27:08
Speaker
Yeah, totally. No, absolutely. Yeah, I think something that I do kind of want to talk about just briefly is that, you know, the fact that I am younger, kind of looking at these these younger players and whatever, I think it is also important to be like, you know, it's it's like there is like also kind of a bias sometimes that comes with older players and the kind of, you know, like me and Joe talked about this a little while ago with like Michael Finley, right?
00:27:30
Speaker
And you know, he was obviously quite talented and like physically gifted. But I think, you know, it's a little bit misleading to act like he's like the best tight end of all time. In fact, his history, you know, I think I think I think it's like I'm not necessarily with you guys, but sometimes when you get into these discussions with people online, they're quite like hesitant to put any kind of recent players in the past 10 years on any of these lists. And obviously, some positions, that's for good reason. But I think it's also good to have the conversation about this.
00:28:01
Speaker
No, there's no doubt and there's nothing wrong with Aaron Jones. I mean, I love the guy if I can There we go. I love the guy to death. He's a great guy
00:28:11
Speaker
Um, he, you know, his parents really did right by him. He's, he's, if you ever meet him, it's always yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. Or, you know, whatever your, your pronouns are. And it just, um, you know, he's very humble, but he, he shows up on the field and, you know, Nick and I had this discussion all the last year throughout the games. It's like, you know, when we were doing our over unders, it was, you know,
00:28:36
Speaker
Is he going to get over under five carries in the next game? And it was just getting frustrating every time. But he's obviously one that would go on the list too, but beings we're doing are starting at 11. There's just so much of a history for the Packers. I was even thinking about putting a Cannondale on there just because he's, you know, his numbers and being a Hall of Famer and all that for his era would have been a solid person to be putting at a half bag.
All-Time Packers Wide Receivers
00:29:08
Speaker
Absolutely. Um, yeah, so let's go into, let's get into the, the wide receivers then, shall we? I think, um, I think since I had three wide receivers, I'll start with my three. I think it's hard to go past, uh, Hudson, obviously number one. It's kind of the reason that the position exists. And I think it's quite difficult to argue against him. Even when you look at the error and if you adjust and compare those numbers, it's still like absolutely mind boggling. Um,
00:29:37
Speaker
After Hudson, I've gone for Stirling Sharp. And look, you know, some of the other receivers who were around for a bit longer, you know, I definitely have a valid case from that era. I just think, you know, he's kind of like he's one of if not the biggest what if in NFL history when it comes to injuries. And, you know, one of the only receivers ever to hold a triple crown as well in an era where he played against Jerry Rice.
00:30:04
Speaker
I just, I just, I just think that he's such a crazy, talented, you know, specimen of a player and it would be kind of a shame to not include him even if, you know, it is kind of something on the more hypothetical side. And then I have to go for Davante Adams. It was tough to not put Jordy on the list as I'm a big Jordy fan, but I think the way that Davante plays the modern game, I think he's kind of the perfect receiver. He can do everything. I mean, obviously he doesn't have the high end speed, but
00:30:33
Speaker
when it comes to technique, you know, everyone knows his releases and his kind of lightning fast first step. You know, I think he's just really is a good do it all kind of receiver for the modern game. I'm kind of interested in seeing what Brian put down because it's real. It is. It's it's weird or not weird, but it's interesting that you got the younger one putting more of your modern ones and stuff like that. So I'm kind of interested to see what Brian did with his.
00:31:05
Speaker
Yeah, and mine might show like my exact age relative to you. So I obviously Don Hudson is in there. We all agree on that. There's, I mean, he's our Hall of Famer. The numbers are there. There's, there's no discussion. I mean, 99 touchdowns is what, 26 more receiving touchdowns than anyone else in our history. Like you can't ignore that. So I did, I chose two receivers with, uh,
00:31:35
Speaker
with a shout out to Sterling Sharp and Devontae Adams as the two most talented we've ever had, like without question. And if Sterling Sharp doesn't get injured and if Devontae Adams doesn't get traded to Oakland, their numbers, especially Adams, would probably surpass absolutely everybody in just about every category. But I went with our all time leading receiver and that's Donald Driver. Only one to eclipse 10,000 yards.
00:32:05
Speaker
The touchdowns aren't quite there at 61 when you've got guys like Sharpen, Adams, both have more, but the guy was just there for so long. He did absolutely everything for so long. Yeah, I couldn't leave him off the list. So yeah, I think we got a pretty good mix here. Yeah, I had to do a coin flip.
00:32:26
Speaker
because I was either going to put Donald or I was going to put James Lofton. And I just had, I was, I kept wavering back and forth on in this fight. It was finally like, all right, well, Donald's the all time leading received yards guy. So, you know, I think I'm going to slot him and he, him just like Aaron Jones is such a humble guy, you know, good guy and all that. There was never any issues with him or anything like that. And
00:32:51
Speaker
And for him to come out of basically nowhere, I mean seventh round out of Alcorn State and You know for him to come in and be what he was it just if he's an amazing player and I'm I'm glad he ended as a packer. I'm just I'm kind of sad that it ended the way it did because it was either you're gonna retire or we're gonna release you and
00:33:18
Speaker
And he felt like he could still play, but he promised that he would never play in another uniform other than Green Bay. I think he's even come out recently and said that Greg Jennings was actively, what's the word, recruiting him to Minnesota. And he just kept saying, no, I promised the fans I would never wear another uniform.
00:33:47
Speaker
Other than the Packers and so I that kind of upset me that that's how he went out But I am glad that he ended his career with the same team that he started with Absolutely as long as you brought up Lofton man, I was looking at his numbers. He's only 500 yards behind Donald Driver and
00:34:07
Speaker
Yeah. Had what, like 70 fewer games, had 200, what is that? 213 fewer receptions and only 500 fewer yards. Like that was a machine. If he had the touchdown numbers in there, look out. Well, he was a first rounder, wasn't he? He was one of the few first rounders, the Packers have taken at wide receiver.
00:34:34
Speaker
Oh, let's see. Actually, no, he was the 127th overall pick. Okay. I was thinking something else, but yeah, I'm looking on the wrong line. I'm sorry. Ignore me. That was the wrong line. I suppose if I wanted to, I could look for it too.
00:35:01
Speaker
Yep. He was, you, you are right. He was the first round pick. Yeah. Dyslexia. He was the sixth overall pick. Yeah. In 79, wasn't it? Or 78, 78.
All-Time Packers Tight End Selection
00:35:14
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Um, cause I was going to say there's only been like a handful of wide receivers. The Packers have drafted in the first round and he was one of the last ones. And, uh, so I mean that just, yeah, it was him. And then.
00:35:31
Speaker
It was Lofton and then there was like a long period and then Jevon Walker was next and we haven't drafted one since in the first round. So I mean, when you see that kind of record the Packers had with wide receivers. You know they must have really loved that kid to take him in the in the first round. OK, absolutely. Now what do you guys have a tight end here?
00:36:00
Speaker
Well, since I cheated and put a fullback, I only have one tight end. Yeah, me too. Yeah, same. And mine's the same as Joe's. It's Paul Kaufman. Yeah. Another situation where the stats just leap out at you much more than anybody else. And I didn't feel there was a choice.
00:36:21
Speaker
Yeah, the only other one that I was thinking was Bubba Franks, just because he kind of had a longevity with the Packers, because it seems like the Packers don't tend to have a long streak with their tight ends. So it was it came down between Kaufman and Franks. And I know Franks a little bit better because he was in the time that I was growing up. But stats, games played, everything else, you know, you can go wrong with Kaufman.
00:36:50
Speaker
But I'm waiting for the young end to tell us what he got, because I'm interested in that one. So Luke Musgrave. No, yeah, I mean, you guys are totally right. There you go. You're kind of going through, kind of going through, you know, everyone, because I always try hard to kind of, like, understand the older players here. But, you know, yeah, I can't look past Kaufman. I mean, yeah, like you said, Joe,
00:37:16
Speaker
Frank's definitely in consideration. But I mean, yeah, you know, it's like you really have to have to make an argument and you don't have to, you don't really have to make an argument with coffin.
Evaluating Offensive Linemen Across Eras
00:37:26
Speaker
It's kind of, you have to disprove that he's the greatest really. So yeah, I can't argue with that.
00:37:34
Speaker
Now in the next section, I will definitely be showing my age. This is the one that, the offensive line as a whole, I found so incredibly difficult. A, because the Packers have a long storied history, incredible lineman play. And it's like, we're actually quite spoiled, especially on the interior.
00:37:55
Speaker
And yeah, and also just because I didn't watch any of these guys play. I hear one of them on the radio quite often, you know, the Packers radio and doing the Packers videos for them. But I mean, yeah, seeing these guys play is a totally different story. And obviously, you know, we've been in touch with Fred Thurston. He's kind of another guy who's on my list. But
00:38:20
Speaker
Uh, sorry, his grandfather's on my list, but yeah, again, you know, I haven't seen many of these guys play. So look, I'll go through mine. My, my left tackle is Bakhtiari. Um, at guard, I have Fuzzy Thurston at center. I have either Jim Ringo, Larry McCarron. Uh, my other guard, I got Jerry Kramer, of course. And at my other tackle, I have Chad Clifton. So I have a feeling probably about to get, get roasted a little bit here with your guys' choices, but I mean, go ahead.
00:38:49
Speaker
No, really. I was thinking about putting, now you kind of have Chad Clifton out of position if you have him at your right tackle. But I was really considering putting him as a left tackle because he had a longevity, but
00:39:03
Speaker
Uh, you know, he did have some injuries here or there, but you can really with the offensive line, you could plug and play almost anybody because like you said, there is a long history of offensive lineman play. But I just, I don't think you can go wrong with a lot of the Lombardi era ones just because that, I mean, there's so many hall of famers out of that line that it's crazy. It's pretty ridiculous.
00:39:33
Speaker
But Brian, who you got? Yeah. Mine was actually very, very close to yours, Nick. I also put Bakhtiari, just his longevity, his protecting Aaron Rodgers' blindside all these years, coming on as a rookie fourth rounder, I want to say, and jumping in.
00:39:54
Speaker
Fuzzy Thurston, Jim Ringo, and Jerry Kramer, 100% on board with those. For my right tackle, I also went pretty recent and I went with Clifton's counterpart. I got Mark Tauscher in there. Yep.
00:40:09
Speaker
Yeah, I remember and I just looked this up because I was like, I thought I remembered something about him never getting called for a holding. There's an entire article on ESPN from 2005 about a holding call on Mark Tauscher because he was six years into his career and it was his first one.
00:40:30
Speaker
And it was it was kind of controversial. Like, but yeah, there's a whole article about it. I should read that. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. The Packers have had a long history of it, of booking tackles, you know, Clifton and Tauscher, Bakhtiari Bulaga.
00:40:49
Speaker
Um, you know, going back to the Lombardi era with, uh, uh, fuzzy and not fuzzy, um, forest Greg and, uh, Oh, who was the other tackle? Um,
00:41:04
Speaker
not Jordan, uh, who's the other tackle on that team. But, um, but like I said, the, you know, all hall of famers, but yeah, that's pretty crazy stat with Tauscher. Bakhtiari is a good pick. Um, had he not been injured for those, for that long, I think he definitely would have been
00:41:24
Speaker
one that I threw him in there, but even his short amount of, or I'm not really sure. I mean, he's been around a while, but his time, he's been solid the whole time, you know.
00:41:35
Speaker
But I went, this is another one where I kind of had the coin flip and I just went through and I said, okay, who's played that position the longest. And I needed a left tackle specifically. And I was like, well, maybe Chad Clifton. And I was like, no, I'm going to represent the eighties a little bit and go Ken Ruckers. And that's who I went with.
00:42:01
Speaker
But other than that, the only different thing is I had my other tackle was Forest Greg and just Hall of Famer, Lombardi era. Yeah. And as long as you brought up all those bookend pairings, Bruce Wilkerson and Earl Dotson, the two guys that started for Super Bowl 31, that was a great pairing as well. So yeah, we have a rich history here.
00:42:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it was really tough to leave Forest Craig off my list. I kind of just want to get some recognition for the other errors here, but I mean, you're totally right, Joe. And it's like, that's kind of the beautiful thing is that you can really slot in almost like anyone from any of these errors. And it's like, it's actually totally fine.
00:42:43
Speaker
I mean, yeah, I think some of these guys, especially the interior, like, you know, like Jerry Kramer, I would find it impossible to leave off any of these lists. But, you know, even someone like I think, you know, like Corey Glinsley, I mean, the guy missed like, like, you know, maybe 10 snaps in his whole career playing with the Packers. And there was a good period of time where he was, you know, arguably, if not the best center in the game as well.
00:43:08
Speaker
And then, you know, like longevity comes in with a lot of these guys and, you know, like we have that as well. It's not like, you know, a couple of bursts in a couple of year burst of of good play. It's like, yeah, these guys are just locked down the side for their entire career. And I don't really decline as well.
00:43:22
Speaker
The only position that I found it hard was center just because they're kind of like tied in. There was always like a revolving door there where even though we were getting good play out of guys, they didn't last long in the system. You think of Frankie bag of donuts, Frankie Winters, you know, he really wasn't there.
00:43:44
Speaker
tremendously long. He was there, I think five years at the most, but he had played elsewhere before coming in. Uh, Lindsley would have been a good pick. Um, but you gotta go with Larry McCarron. I mean, that one's
00:44:00
Speaker
just the longevity alone games played and, you know, just that wonky finger man. I just, I, yeah. And of course voice of the radio, you know, I, I've always said that I, I could just listen to Larry and Wayne read the telephone book just because they make it great. And, you know, he's got great insight and everything else, but
00:44:29
Speaker
Yeah. And so something I kind of wanted to ask you guys. I was going to say what set me apart was Jim Ringo's in the pro football Hall of Fame. Right.
00:44:42
Speaker
That's what just, then on my coin toss up, it was like, I found the one thing that kind of set one person apart.
Choosing an All-Time Offensive Coach
00:44:48
Speaker
And that was it. Yep. Absolutely. Um, and so I'm, I'm kind of assuming that we all would, we all would have like Lombardi as our all time coach, but it's something I kind of want to ask you and something I find quite interesting is like the actual identity of a team. I think the Packers are one of the only teams in the league that have like a hardcore identity. Like, you know, where we have a coaching tree that's spanning back 30 years now.
00:45:12
Speaker
Um, we have, you know, elements of our culture, like, like I said, the strong offensive lineman and, you know, these kinds of things that like, you know, strong quarterback play, obviously, um, these kinds of things that are just inherent parts of the Packers culture. When it comes to like the offense, like, I mean, what things do you guys see as like very like Packers-y things to have or like certain concepts or plays or, you know, just like, you know, certain things that you would expect to see from the Packers offense in general?
00:45:41
Speaker
Wow. That's a good question. Well, it's so hard to answer too, because you want to say quarterback play, but we've only had two major quarterbacks in our generation. And so that one's a hard one to answer. And you'd want to say, you know, running backs, but
00:46:07
Speaker
That really stopped when the quarterback play took over. Wow. I mean, I first and foremost do go more to like the offensive line and running game. It's been so important to this team for so long.
00:46:30
Speaker
That's really tough, but you know we have guys you know we go back to my childhood with guys like Dorsey Levins and Edgar Bennett and then you know we get. We go then to among green and then Ryan Grant and then I mean having Eddie Lacey in town like there's and there's really only been a handful of seasons where our offensive line hasn't been really good or like legendarily good in my lifetime. It's just always been such a priority and.
00:47:01
Speaker
Yeah, like like you said, like all the names that you could bring up for best players to ever play on the offensive line. Like there's way too many for me to say anything different like it's. Yeah, that's that's where my mind goes.
00:47:16
Speaker
And I think that's the best answer you can give. Cause like I said, there's so many other things that you'd want to say, but it's hard to say because we've not had anything else, you know, like with the quarterbacks, we've had the two quarterbacks for 40 years pretty much. And you know, it would be different if we had, you know, maybe just a handful of them in that time, but, uh,
00:47:44
Speaker
Offensive line. Yeah. I mean, obviously Brian and I are old enough that we we've seen some really shitty offensive line play from the Packers, but it's not a constant. It's usually after a bunch of injuries have happened or, you know, something like that. I mean, you got the Marshall Newhouse era and the Don Barclays and, you know, the year Byron Bell was in there and stuff like that.
00:48:13
Speaker
But you know for every one of those you have a blue Laga or you have a bakti are you're a TJ Lang and a Josh sitting now and Guys like that.
Packers' Offensive Strategy and Consistency
00:48:25
Speaker
So yeah, the offensive line would have to be the identity and it makes sense with the Packers because they're a cold-weather team and you know, they always say that in the cold weather you're you win or lose in the trenches and You know that that's that's the Green Bay Packer way
00:48:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And yeah, you guys are totally right. This is still one of the one of the teams in the league that builds from the inside out, you know, they start in the offensive line there. Up until last year, you know, Brian Guggen said drafted an offensive lineman on multiple and every single year of his tenure.
00:49:02
Speaker
And every time there's been a great quarterback success, there's been great O-line success to follow with it. I would say we've generally had quite a good running game. And even in years where we don't necessarily use it or rely on it, it's generally been quite good still. I would have a tough time thinking of a year where we were definitively bad at running the ball.
00:49:24
Speaker
And outside of that, the only thing I can think of, um, is just like, this is generally an offense that plays up to its competition as well. I mean, you think about how many great defenses we've faced in the past, you know, 10, 15, 20 years. It's, I'd say it feels like it's been quite rare that we've been truly shut down by a good defense. I mean, even to think as recently as this last year,
00:49:46
Speaker
the Eagles defense, you know, we talked about this last week. But, you know, even with Jordan Love at quarterback, we still had a chance to win that game, you know, the, the, the, the bills even, you know, like the, the Packers, they, the offense shows up generally. I mean, you know, it's like that year with the 2018 bears, you know,
00:50:03
Speaker
Um, yeah, the, the undefeated Cardinals with literally nobody at receiver. Um, it is all games in my recent memory of course, but you know, the fact is they, they, they generally have been offensive minor team and they play up, you know, they don't, they don't generally don't fall short in these big moments against against hard teams. But you know, the one year where the running game wasn't the greatest, the defense led most of the way for the season was the Superbowl year.
00:50:32
Speaker
I was just going to say that. That's nuts. That was the first place my mind went. I was like, I do remember a couple of years where we couldn't run the ball. And one of them, oddly, was when we had Franklin and Lacey. And we just couldn't get up over, like, two and a half or three yards per carry. It was bad. But then the other one was that Super Bowl year, where the ball year, it was just nothing. And then James Starks explodes in the playoffs a little bit.
00:51:04
Speaker
Yeah. That was crazy. I mean, they were pulling guys off of practice squads. Uh, what was the Dimitri Nance? And, um, Oh, there was one other guy, but then you had Brandon Jackson on the team who while wasn't a great running back was a solid receiving threat out of the backfield. And
00:51:25
Speaker
Yeah. And, uh, you know, and then like you said, James Stark's coming on late, but he had started like the season on pup or whatever because of an injury and nobody knew what he could do. And he just exploded. But Ryan Grant went down early and there was every, that year I, man, I think of it all the time because nobody thought they were going to do anything. And they went all the way with it. Yeah.
00:51:51
Speaker
I was, I was, I wasn't podcasting or blogging or anything at that point, but I was complaining to all my friends and family about Mike McCarthy that year. Like we were three or four weeks left in the season and we just looked done and cook. And like, I was like, okay, you know, maybe we can keep him around. He did turn it around and got us to the playoffs and then nobody saw us as the 60 all the way through. That was amazing. Yeah. Yeah.
00:52:21
Speaker
It's a great team. Yeah, that's a good one. That's why we follow it, right? I think we could do a whole nother podcast.
Reflecting on Forgotten Packers Running Backs
00:52:30
Speaker
You can do this next time I'm on, and we'll just dedicate an hour to talking about running backs that everybody forgot about. Or just like the guys who were like the flash in the pans, like Sam Congato. Oh, man. Hey, put some respect on that name. It's Dr. Sam Congato. It's Dr. It is Dr. That's right.
00:52:50
Speaker
Oh man, that would be fun. It would. Yeah, we'll definitely have to get you back on, Brian. This is a lot of fun. Before we finish up, is there anything that you're working on or covering that you want to quickly talk about here?
00:53:07
Speaker
No, man, you know, it was just really awesome to get this opportunity.
Podcast Reflections and Future Excitement
00:53:11
Speaker
I've been talking to the bird in Joe's ear a little bit about possibly joining him for an episode, but that's never gone anywhere. So yeah, I thought it was really cool to jump on this one. Definitely brings me back to the old days. I had a lot of fun doing this. Gets the juices going again, doesn't it? It does. It does. And now I'm, only problem is I'm super hyped for the season now and we've still got
00:53:37
Speaker
What is it, eight weeks, nine weeks? I don't know. Well, think about it this way. We've only got a week before training camp, so that'll suffice for a
Closing and Listener Engagement
00:53:47
Speaker
little bit. There you go. Don't give me something. I'll take something. Something. Absolutely something. All right, guys. Well, as always, you can find us on Twitter. You can find Brian at PTTF underscore Brian, myself at Nicholas GRGR, Joe at Iowa underscore Joe 86, the podcast at Outback underscore Packers,
00:54:08
Speaker
Don't forget to like, share, subscribe, read us, all that good stuff wherever you listen to the podcast and find us. Until next time, we'll see you later.