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Arc 30: Speck - Dissecting Worm
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This story isn’t intended for young or sensitive readers. Readers who are on the lookout for trigger warnings are advised to give Worm a pass.
Complete list of potential triggers: here
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Dissecting Worm: The sister podcast to Brockton Bay Book Club where our hosts Jacob and Allan discuss adapting Worm for television.
Episode Description:
"We're all dissected, in the end."
Find all our links, including our new merch @brocktonbaybc
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Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast:
This episode of the Brockton Bay Book Club is sponsored by Made Marion. Made Marion creates custom cottagecore and ren faire clothing designed for every body. Whether you’re looking for a lace up bodice, rustic apron and pinafores, or ethereal dresses, you’ll find items customized for every individual’s fit and design. All items are lovingly hand sewn with attention to detail and a touch of whimsy.
Visit Made Marion today and transform your wardrobe with clothing that feels as enchanting as it looks. Find Made Marion on etsy, at themademarion.etsy.com
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Timestamps:
(00:00) - Introduction
(01:30) - Dissecting Begins
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Merchandise Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
Exciting announcement, we now have Brockton Bay Book Club merch. We've got our Brockton Bay Book Club t-shirt as well as the Brockton Bay's sweatshirt. They look sweet. Hannah designed them and they're amazing. So if you're interested in that, a link will be in the description and shout out to Hannah for all the sweet designs. Thanks so much for your guys' support and go check it out.
What is Worm?
00:00:25
Speaker
Worm is a web serial by JC McCray, also known as Wildbo. You can read Worm in its original format by visiting parahumans dot.wordpress dot.com or donate to Wildbo's Patreon at patreon dot.com slash Wildbo. This story isn't intended for young or sensitive readers. Readers who are on the lookout for trigger warnings are advised to give Worm a pass. For a complete list, check the description for all of Worm's trigger warnings.
Reflecting on the Book Club's Journey
00:01:34
Speaker
Take that, you worms. We have arrived, my friends. I'm arriving right now. We're all, yeah. Triggering. Just a group arrival. Oh, great movie. ah We are here in arc 30. A worm. It's happened. We made it to the end of the story. Back to conclude.
00:02:03
Speaker
We're arriving and concluding at the same time. Second triggers. We're at the finish line. We are. This is this is the finish line.
00:02:15
Speaker
We'll put it out. We're we're not going to fully cross that finish line today. we do We will do a couple, obviously a season ah five recap episode as we've done in the past. ah we'll We'll do like a full series recap. We'll kind of put it all out there yeah and and kind of go from there. but This does conclude our reading of worm minus the yeah epilogues, which will come later, but for the most part. Right. Worm is done. The bulk of it. Ooh. What a journey. It's been fun. Man, I tell you, the the journey of, ah you know, Brockton Book Club, Brockton Bay Book Club is very different for me from the journey of dissecting worm.
00:03:05
Speaker
Cause you know, Brockton Bay book club, well, both of them, when I look back, I've got, you know, each one of them has the, well, as I'm listening to myself, well, you better say something about what we just talked about. And then I'll say it and I'm like, good. Cause otherwise I was going to bet to kick past these ass. if I didn't say something all right ah or, you know, there's no way we kept that, right?
00:03:30
Speaker
And then of course, like I listened to the next episode and we like cut that immediately. I'm like, a yeah, yeah, that's what I thought. um But specifically over
Respect for Writers' Rooms
00:03:39
Speaker
Brockton Bay book club has been like kind of no regrets, you know, yeah you're, cause you're just giving your opinion on the things that you like and don't like and analyzing it. And dissecting worm is a much more, uh, intentionally like not divisive, but aggressive with the text.
00:04:00
Speaker
Um, and because of that, it is all the time. I'm thinking, man, we need to fix that, but that fixing that starts at the beginning, you know? Yep, man. If, if I could go back and start over again, Ooh, I'd be cutting this thing up so different already. Um,
00:04:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's been a really, really fun experience. And in a lot of ways has has given me a ton more respect for the traditional writers rooms ah that I didn't have respect before. I love writers. We're all writers in our own right here. um But just the so like you said, the really, really simple, like we've talked before that kind of what we're doing is is very day one.
00:04:51
Speaker
whiteboard, you know, throw it on, see what sticks. So we'll come back to a type of stuff. And even that, you're right, you you will listen back a couple weeks later and be like, okay, well, obviously, we can't do that. Or wow, we just we just kind of skipped over that. Or, okay, we got to make that work. But that's going to have repercussions for here. Like, it's, it's, a it's a really intense endeavor. And we're doing it for fun.
Diving into Arc 30
00:05:19
Speaker
just without any sort of, uh, you know, actual consequences or deadlines or anything like that. And still it's stressful. So, uh, bad props to, to all of you out there who actually do this for a living is man, it's hard work. It is impressive. Well, should we get into this arc?
00:05:45
Speaker
You guys want to know some, uh, some rough numbers on how much we've done. Oh yeah. Hit me with those numbers. Uh, okay. So it's about 60 episodes of main content, not including what we do for summaries in epilogues and is what we're going to end up with. lot And on on average, our episode length is, can you guys guess?
00:06:12
Speaker
average episode life. If we're just doing Brockton Bay Book Club or dissecting work, those are two very different ones. Okay. So average Brockton Bay Book Club is probably two hours and the average, maybe an hour and 45 if we're lucky and the average dissecting is an hour. So wait i I was thinking Brockton, I think book clubs average is like two Because we got some long episodes, not all of them, but we got some long book club episodes. Yeah. So I'm thinking average. I'm thinking average. So I'm going to say ah about an hour and 35 minutes. I'll go, I'll go to 10. You go to 10. Yeah. One hour, 53 minutes in 10 seconds. Oh, I knew it. Wow. It would have thunk.
00:07:06
Speaker
That's, that's incredible. at least Up to this point, but not including what hasn't been released yet. I think Jacob just off the top of my head. I think we are within, like we are within like minutes between us. I think help for who kind of put it right down the middle i like i am i am i think we're both like seven, somewhere like around 17 minutes.
00:07:32
Speaker
You might be closer by a minute. I am. I am am i i'm trying closer by 20 seconds. 20 seconds. Yeah. Calculated. ah So if you take the average of Jacob and I, we we end up with the correct answer actually.
00:07:51
Speaker
Exactly. As you know what? Look at that. How perfect is that? Beautiful. I got to average us out to get the right answer. And that's what this podcast is all about. Anyway, that's our, that's that's a good opener right there. Let's cut it to the sponsor for today's episode. Just Hannah.
Sponsorship Spotlight: Maid Marion
00:08:17
Speaker
This episode of the Brockton Bay Book Club is sponsored by Maid Marion. Maid Marion creates custom cottagecore and Renfaire clothing designed for everybody. Whether you're looking for our a lace-up bodice, rustic apron and pinafore, or ethereal dresses, you'll find items customized for every individual's fit and design. All items are lovingly hand-sewn with attention to detail and a touch of whimsy.
00:08:44
Speaker
Visit Maid Marian today and transform your wardrobe with clothing that feels as enchanting as it looks. Find Maid Marian on Etsy at themaidmarian.etsy dot.com.
00:09:00
Speaker
Shall we dive into Arc 30? Let's do it.
Analyzing the Final Fight
00:09:05
Speaker
That is what I'm here for. Yeah. It's a tricky one, only in the sense that, strictly speaking,
00:09:13
Speaker
I think very little content changes, if anything here. Wow. I mean, it's, it's in my notebook. I'll let you know about that. I'm sure. But just on the surface, it's, it's the final fight. It's Taylor versus everyone, but then versus Sion and sort of bringing that home. I think the little that is, is just enhancing some clarity, making sure that what actually happens is clear to the audience.
00:09:43
Speaker
And then, you know, putting a nice little bow on the season in terms of how we want to end the entire series. Unless you had some specific thoughts on the actions themselves. No, no, I thought this is going to be yeah a lot of moving sequence sequence. My big notes are simplify um because there is a lot of stuff that goes on here that we all know makes sense in the story, but in terms of like both reading it, and I'm going to just think about the smoothness of storytelling, um it is just a lot of side quests that don't matter. in this And the last one, I think, um you know, the whole like, oh, she's getting people, she's in, she's out, she's with teachers, she's back, like going to all these places,
00:10:42
Speaker
This needs to be her, like like a box. This is a boxing match. This is going in or, you know, sports match. This is going in, having a fight, having to go back to the corner, reevaluate the strategy, go back in, have another fight, come back, reevaluate. And then that third act fight, go in, absolutely dominate, win, and then finish it off.
00:11:10
Speaker
and I think if if you literally play it like that, then the in and outs become a lot easier to work with, um of like going into fights with Sion, out of fights with Sion. I think a lot of the non-Sion fighting should be relegated to just grabbing people and not futzing around too much with communicating.
00:11:41
Speaker
um I think we have the descent be pretty like descent would be super visual and fun to play with. um And then afterwards you can get a little bit more, um you know, creative with what's going on, but you're right. Overall, I think this stays pretty much the same. It just needs to get simplified. Yeah, no, that's a good observation. You're you're totally right. I think,
00:12:10
Speaker
I think definitely making sure that it's clear, because there's a couple, you know, key things that are happening here that are apparent to a reader, the way wild bow writes it, but need to be clearly conveyed to an audience right so one.
00:12:25
Speaker
she loses the ability to communicate with people verbally. right yeah So pretty big thing that kind of kick starts this whole thing. So we got to ah we got to address that at and in some facility to the fact that her second trigger allows her to grab people and that she has a bit of a range. That's a little bit easier. because Also people we know it's not a second trigger. just so Oh, yeah. Sorry. Calm down. like and Yeah. Easier to get off there your high horse.
00:12:58
Speaker
it's um
00:13:01
Speaker
Tattletale can sort of ah and sort of enunciate that one as she does in the story. So like you can get around some of those a little bit. um And then three, obviously, I think the the the biggest sort of hurdle from us from a visual medium perspective here is making sure that it's understood why Sion loses. Yes, yes. That's but one of my big, because like I said, I just have simplify over everything. Yeah, that with the biggest one that I have just circled is specifically the chain of events to kill Sion needs to get simplified or really freaking telegraphed. And i I think honestly, ah yeah, so
00:13:53
Speaker
and what I've thought a lot about, and it's hard to, you don't want to overdo it. You don't you don't want to oversell it, but like there's there's three components, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there's three important components that lead to his death. There's ah Taylor's just beating him down.
00:14:14
Speaker
by bullying him, it sort of breaks Sion psychologically, if you will. yeah There is ah foil's ability to break into his secret dimension where his body is. yeah yeah And then it's the giant cannon that arms master fires yeah that actually, put but he kills him for, yeah. Like better work. I'm imagining in my head,
00:14:42
Speaker
ah so So, you know, this is brainstorming here, obviously. um I think visually you have Sion dodge a bolt from ah from foil. And that'd be a big deal because he has not dodged anything because why would he? He has just walked through everything. right Just stood there and take it and then goes out the other side.
00:15:11
Speaker
So for him to have to dodge something and not even you know touch it, I think that's when you have tattletale go. Uh, he is afraid of something she can do. And, you know, we talk maybe a little bit more about the fact that like he's a well, essentially he's a portal to the rest of his body. We need to open, you know, open that up. And I think messing with like talking about the concept of like,
00:15:40
Speaker
In simple terms, we are having the scientists develop a bomb that can blow up an entire dimension.
00:15:49
Speaker
But, you know, obviously wherever we would use it, like it doesn't work if he's just peeking into that dimension. We need to put it in, in him essentially. Right. And the idea of She, she shoots the bolt. It comes out the other side and like, you once again, I've, you know, we've been watching secret level, so got a lot of cool animated imagery in my head. It like shatters into another dimension where you've got the light spilling from our dimension into this like dark dimension with yeah the all the sorts of like creepy crawly tendrils and fire and all the stuff, but you can't really see it. It's all in shadow.
00:16:32
Speaker
um and that bolt's going through, and then the bomb comes in behind it. And yeah you know blows them up from the inside. And I like the idea idea that you could easily foreshadow that too much earlier in the season, or hell, even back in like season two, ah you know with with foil slash flechette,
00:16:59
Speaker
showing, especially earlier in this season, you could easily have her pierce a dimension with her bolt. Uh, maybe she fired to, uh, if we were really smart, we'd use her to open the portals. Yeah, you could. i Yeah. that I think that would tread. No, I mean, you yeah, you could could definitely work again. I don't want to, I don't want to tread into over complicating it.
00:17:24
Speaker
Well, I think this under complicates it because we realized that like, Oh, you know, we set early on, Hey, the whole point of that is we need somebody to pin portals down like other dimensions down. And she can essentially break into other dimensions with her bolts. That's kind of how they work. Uh, so, you know, somebody shifts space and then we punch a hole, which is what they do. So you just, you know, wave your hand and say, Hey, that's how our power works.
00:17:52
Speaker
And we can, yeah you know as much as people don't like it, I don't even like how many characters we've kept around. um ah So I think, yeah, I think characters inevitably on like second and third passes of the story would would whittle down a little bit. Oh, I've got i've got a very, we've we've talked a little bit about before, but I've got a very thoughtful, complete redoing now that we've gotten to the end.
00:18:17
Speaker
in my head that it's going to be a wildly different show than even what we've done. yeah and but But I think it would be very succinct in being able to explain it. Yeah. um And how all the characters relate to each other, which is kind of harder that's fun for them. Yeah, really.
00:18:44
Speaker
No, definitely that could work. and that's yeah you're If you're definitely going the simplification route, then and you you know hand wave some powers or or expand them a little bit, adjust them, tweak them, and you know there's your answer. Pretty easy. yeah right
00:19:01
Speaker
and I mean, and then, of course, you've got the the whole end to Taylor's story is her confusion at the crowds, ah you know, fleeing all of that and then ah escaping into another dimension where, you know, she means contest and they have their final conversation.
Taylor's Fate: What Happened?
00:19:21
Speaker
um Yeah, I don't think we have that conversation. I think we can test a talks to her basically, but um I don't think Taylor needs to respond. I think Taylor is essentially too far gone. And we have Contessa monologue. Well, yeah, I mean, it could be a bit of both, right? Because I mean, even in the story, Taylor's not speaking. Contessa is understanding what you're saying because she's using her power.
00:19:51
Speaker
to like, or path to victory is path to understand Taylor, you know? yeah So it's, you could still do that, but yet, no, you're right. Like it is, it's mostly, it's not a conversation. It's Contessa talking to Taylor, essentially. Yeah. Taylor's on her knees, you know, gun pressed to the back of the head or whatever and Taylor, or, you know, from a distance, but, uh, and Taylor just, you know, we see the, the look on her face yeah as she's asking her questions, you know, would you have done it again?
00:20:20
Speaker
And then I, you know, I like the idea of not knowing what Taylor's saying, but Contessa reacting as if she does. And just, you know, would you have done it again? And, you know, just look on her face and then BAM. Yep. I don't know how satisfying that is for the audience though. Well, it's a little bit more. You, you've, you got to give them a little something. Um,
00:20:48
Speaker
there's There's two elements to Taylor's, quote, death here. ah One is the ambiguity of her death, um which, yeah this is really subtle, but I've had a i've had this thought about Contessa for a while, because I've thought about this this scene in particular. I think you stress multiple times subtly in conversation in showing it that Contessa never needs more than one bullet to hit her target.
00:21:17
Speaker
that's what you And every time she fires a gun, it's one bullet per target. She only needs one. she Like that's her that's her that's her power. She never needs more than one. And so firing twice is really telling.
00:21:33
Speaker
And just those those like little subtle things. And then I think also the way you, this is more a conversation you'd have with like a DP and and your director um is of course how it's framed needs to,
00:21:45
Speaker
needs to really sell it. And you could do so much with the imagery here. a lot of ah There's obviously a lot lot of religious references you can make. there's a lot of Just the ways you could set this could be really, really cool.
00:22:00
Speaker
I could call back to a lot of just popular imagery and things that I think a lot of DPs would have a lot of fun kind of framing this scene in particular, because it's not every day that a show really kills its protagonist, kills off for for you know essentially, as we can tell.
00:22:20
Speaker
um Yeah, so I think that there's a there's a lot of fun conversations you can have about how to appropriately and satisfactorily conclude Taylor's character while still leaving it ambiguous. Yeah. I mean, I think it's literally the gun, the the muzzle flash, like, and the whole screen goes black. Yeah. You don't have to show anything. Yeah. It's gotta be satisfying, but also tragic.
00:22:54
Speaker
Or you can show it, yeah maybe showing it is like is more. Yeah, this this ah this whole thing was going to end this way. Yeah. you know We didn't know this particular going to be you know by Contessa, but we we were going to, this is the end of the world. you know This is, this is you knew you knew going into an Avengers end game, somebody's going to die.
00:23:23
Speaker
Everybody kind of assumed it was gonna be Captain America. um So like, you yeah everybody's expecting somebody to die. In this case, it just happens to be the person that you kind of vibe out, oh yeah, this person's on a, essentially a Kamikaze run. If a contestant didn't get her, then everybody else would. Maybe. Yeah.
00:23:52
Speaker
Well, yeah that's that's part of the tragedy, though, is like it's it's sort of implied at the end of her story that she's obviously lost touch with reality. She's fading. But I like the the reading that she's not. I mean, sure, I'm sure there's some people that are weary of her, but I like the idea that most people are or happy. You're just grateful to get through it.
00:24:18
Speaker
And like, I mean, can we spoil epilogues, right? We're fine. Yep. I'm going to talk about this more in book club because it's one of my favorite conversations in the entire story. We'll talk about it more in the book club portion. But like there's a conversation in the epilogues that ah Imp has with Shadowstalker.
00:24:37
Speaker
where they're talking about Taylor's legacy. um And it's heavily implied there that Taylor's going to be seen as a hero, pretty much for the rest of humanity. Now, I haven't read Worm, Alan.
00:24:52
Speaker
ward close your mouth ward sorry alan so you're go um So I don't know if that's true or not. I'm sure we'll kind of explore Taylor's impact in Ward a good bit. um But the reading of that to me is very much that I think in terms of Worm's story,
00:25:10
Speaker
ah Part of the tragedy is that ah Taylor's entire journey is this legacy to become a hero. And she does achieve that, but she thinks, but she dies thinking the opposite. And that there's like a real tragedy there. um That is, you know, poetically ah opposite. and um Yeah, so I mean, it's there's a lot of little things like that that I would really want to emphasize towards the end of the of the series. I like it.
00:25:45
Speaker
And then, of course, we have to actually end the series. I don't think you could cut and roll credits right as the black screen hits. And obviously, I think some of the epilogues will play into that. So, you know, we'll probably revisit this a little bit after we read the epilogues. But we obviously want to put an end to the the season and the series. Do we think we need a full another episode for and like a series epilogue or would it be like the last, you know, 15, 20 minutes of the last episode type of thing?
00:26:15
Speaker
I like, personally, I love epilogues. So for me, having a whole episode for an epilogue, see ourselves out, like, hell yeah. i I lean that way as well. And ah again, not selling a broken record, but I think we'll revisit this after we read the epilogues themselves. But even just in in ways that we would want to conclude the characters, I feel like there's just too much to put in the last few minutes of the final episode.
00:26:42
Speaker
I really feel like you, you could use an entire episode to, to end the series. I think it kind of deserves that at that point. So maybe we'll come back. We'll put kind of put a pin in and the exact ending there for sure. But if they're, I'm trying to think of, they're all out of funeral. Everyone thinks it's Taylor's. We're kind of giving their farewells. They're meeting people. Then you like pull away and it's, it's Leet's funeral.
00:27:16
Speaker
Did they both die? Did Uber Elite both die? Or is it just Elite? I don't know if it's ever confirmed. It's not confirmed, then they died together.
00:27:27
Speaker
I'll look it up, see if there's clarity, but that's hilarious. how we or but we What we really do is there's a funeral scene, but it's a funeral for all the capes that died. ah And it's just all capes that we cut out of the show, but are in the story. you know So it's like walls of cap like a memorial you know for all the fallen, but then all the fallen are all the capes that we cut out. That's genius.
00:27:58
Speaker
I think Lee does die. Yeah. I think. I'm not even going to bother looking it up. That's you you all you, Michael. important It's No, it's really not, but. Yeah. There are a lot of important things in this chapter for Ward. I'm sure. Yeah. Do a really good job of setting that up and, um,
00:28:28
Speaker
Yeah, man. Yeah. I really do think this entire arc, um, maybe we have a bit more with the scientists working together. Maybe you put that on Gollum or on weld or on tattletale, you know, one of our due to protagonist yeah to, um, to step up and say something like I really liked when when Rachel you know throws herself into the field of control. who and And maybe like at some point in time, Taylor comes back, she loses control of like, you know, she loses the handhold on one of the people and it takes tattletale or imp or somebody, you know, we've already shown imp to do her little thing where she protects her, ah but having maybe tattletale or somebody shove an important character into the field in order to
00:29:26
Speaker
you know, help Taylor out having a small moment like that. ah Just any way to get them in at least the beginning momentum. And then, you know, maybe have, we've already talked about, you know, having defiant be there to shoot the the big weapon at the end. Right. um And having that duality on one side is Taylor taking control and making sure that everybody does everything. But on the other side, maybe having Tattletail and Defiant leading the charge of an organized, uncontrolled group of people doing stuff. um And Tattletail playing off of Taylor. Right, right. So like maybe Taylor doesn't even get the bomb up and going. Maybe tatle between Tattletail you know and Defiant, Chevalier.
00:30:18
Speaker
they organize the tinkers to put it together. Like just just from the start. yeah Yeah, actually I like that a lot. I think that would work pretty well. Yeah, it gives us a good beeline through the entire fight.
Worm's Unique Resolution vs. Endgame
00:30:35
Speaker
and It's funny, you know, kind of circling back, you you mentioned Avengers Endgame. I always laugh at how warm was first. Right. um And yet if this came out afterwards, ah would be seen as a bit of a ripoff of Endgame. But what would be great about it is that it is really, parody is the wrong word, but it's a um ah ah A reversal of what endgame is, right? I was going to say, parody doesn't have to be comedic. I know it's generally, ah parody is used for comedic form, but to parody something can also just be to copy it in a way and alter it slightly. So in this case, I mean, it does parody all of the tropes that are traditionally in superhero genres, such as the world ending fight. Right. Yeah. No, good point. Good point.
00:31:32
Speaker
um The portal scene in Endgame is the big hero scene. The portal scene in this would be terrifying, right? ah yeah in In Endgame, it's everybody coming through the portals of their own free will to fight the good fight. In Worm, it's everybody coming through the portals, not of their own free will, to fight the losing fight. um And then of course, you got Tony Stark's sacrifice is this big heroic moment.
00:31:58
Speaker
ah Taylor's death is is isolated. Nobody else sees it. it's not done and i hear it's you know She's not sacrificed of her own free will. um it's It's really funny how the parallels there are are so strong and yet are going in two completely different directions. So I think it would actually be really, really fun to see that come out and see people's responses to it because it would feel very familiar.
00:32:26
Speaker
um I mean, you Kel, you could even it after you destroy Sion's body, you could totally have him like fade into dust, right? And it would work so well. how you yeah I mean, it would work, but I i never, I would never. ever But yeah, it'd be really funny to see people's responses to something like that in a post end game world. Although by the time any worm series is out will be post MCU altogether, probably. Yeah. Right. Right. It'll be hard. I mean, as far as I know, we're post MCU right now. That's fair. It will be a distant member. Like the old Batman films. Oh, so good. You said old Batman films. Which ones were you thinking? Exactly.
00:33:17
Speaker
Now, like the original ones, George Clooney, let's just say. Oh, oh no. I went out of West. I also went out of West. Also, if you're going to go old bad bands, you can't go to George. You got to go to Michael. What do you mean you can't go to George Clooney? You can always go to George Clooney. George Clooney wouldn't go to George Clooney. That's the point, Jacob. We're making the point. They'll be a memorable. And let me tell you those sick out in my mind. You know what? That's fair. That's a good point. That was the point. You make a valid point. I'm proving your point.
00:33:48
Speaker
Yep. To this day, uh, when somebody says captain America film, like, uh, I don't think the first adventure cause that's how that's stuck in my head. I think of captain America on a very long shot, like running around the castle parapets fighting the Nazis. If you've ever seen the old captain America boy, what a bore. Wow. That's funny. Fabulous.
00:34:17
Speaker
Do we have more to say on this? I think, I think we're going to be saying a lot when it comes to building this out, but Oh yeah. I figured I was going to say if we, if, if we're kind of and calm before the storm is, you know, maybe put a bow on this one and and kind of build up for trying to put these pieces together here.
00:34:40
Speaker
Um, can we do stuff to read the epilogues? And I think that's going to weigh heavily into how we choose to wrap up the series. Um, in terms of like individual characters, at least. Yeah. I honestly, as I'm thinking about it with the epilogues and how quickly this fight could be over, like I'm thinking about it. This is like.
00:35:07
Speaker
This is like maybe a 30 minute fight. It's all gas. Don't get me wrong, but it's, it kicks off as soon as they, you know, cut the, uh, the Gemma and the Corona Polentia. Like things go to shit so fast and immediately out of the gate for this arc. So like, I think this would actually be over pretty fast. And then you can do the whole epilogue within this episode.
00:35:34
Speaker
Well, i see, ah here there's two ways you could do it. And again, this is kind of getting and get into where we want to sort of split episodes up. um Because if you're starting the episode, pre uh transformation and they're in the facility and you've got a couple conversations there and you've got her conversation with panacea and all of that and everything's kind of going down there that's going to draw it a little bit i mean yeah it's a good probably 20 25 minutes of time there and then if you go into the fight i mean you're going to push an hour um so at that point then i would i'm you know leaning into camp of
00:36:11
Speaker
of full epilogue episode. yeah But if you're doing all of that stuff, the episode prior, and it's sort of a cliffhanger when she transforms, and maybe you have a little bit of that, she's kind of grabbing people, yada, yada, and then there's a cliffhanger ending, and you're sort of starting this episode with her fighting everybody, then yes, I think you then you get some wiggle room, depending on how long. But, and I will say,
00:36:40
Speaker
I think there's this tendency to assume ah you can just get through fight scenes pretty quick, which you can. I mean, you can get through a fight scene as fast as fast as you want, but you don't have to. And you could stretch this out. And one thing I really want to avoid is building towards this epic conclusion and then rushing it. um And of course, you don't want to drag it out too far, then you're going to bore everybody. But I look at a lot of big, dramatic endings to shows, and I more often than not am left underwhelmed by a rushed conclusion. Yeah, um so that's fair. it's yeah I mean, I think there's, you can go a few different ways, but I definitely think you could stretch it if you wanted to.
00:37:29
Speaker
yeah yeah I don't think this needs to be an hour though. The more I think about it, like even with the alternate points of view from like tattletale doing stuff with the big gun, like I really don't think this is going to be that long of a fight. Um, I think her losing her mind at the end might take almost as much time like on screen as the rest of it. Um, just because it's kind of,
00:37:55
Speaker
you know, a pondering, you know, you being in, you know, with her point of view more so than the kind of rushed action. All that saying, I think it would be really interesting to Uh, you know, a lot of big fight episodes and I'm thinking game of thrones and I'm just thinking like budgets you put in anime and other stuff like that. You do your big fight. You're putting a lot of money in and and usually you're like finale episodes are your longest episode. Um, you've got a lot of ground to cover and a lot of times they have the apple log in there. So that's like the extra 20, 30 minutes at the end. Um, I think it'd be really interesting if you said, Hey.
00:38:42
Speaker
This episode is just the final fight. It is 30 minutes and it is all gas, no breaks. Yeah. You know, have it be an incredibly short in comparison to, you know, our hour long episodes, you know, a 30 minute episode, but from the get go, it is just, you could do it all Taylor's perspective, all her losing, you know, focus really in on the, her losing touch with reality, her, you know,
00:39:08
Speaker
putting all of your effects and all your editing and all your time and devotion, not into anything else other than her point of view and the fight and cutting down on the production of, you know, stretching it for an hour. So I think that's a interesting approach to it.
00:39:32
Speaker
But just from optics, if you are releasing hour long episodes, i can as somebody who loves discussion boards for shows as episodes are released, ah there is nothing that upsets a fan base more than a short episode.
00:39:49
Speaker
um Which again, you don't want to drag out your story needlessly. But ah I think if anything, you go longer. The final episode is an hour and a half and you put in the fight, you put in the resolution, you put in Taylor's death, you put in the yet your epilogue and you just make it as long as you need to to wrap up your story. Maybe an hour 20, something like that. You do that and you give people a whistle when they hit play and they go, oh boy, we're in for a longer episode.
00:40:25
Speaker
that's going to, just in terms of, of satisfaction, you're going to, that's going to go over a lot better. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Just thinking up alternate ideas. No, it's, that's what we're here for. Um, I don't hate the, I like the idea of doing, uh,
00:40:44
Speaker
ah you know if Again, maybe if it was maybe if yeah i i mean there's i I'm trying to think of a few different ways you could do it. If that was not the final episode, if it was the penultimate episode, and then your final episode was a normal length, you know maybe that works a bit better. yeah I just like the idea of you come into this episode And much like Taylor, you find yourself, like you realize after 30 minutes when those credits roll that you have been clenching the couch cushions and holding your breath ah for approximately 30 minutes. Like you, you, ah it has been, you know, it was, it was right out the gate, a sprint and you've been hanging on to your couch cushions for dear life. And so that even though it's 30 minutes,
00:41:33
Speaker
having it be so intense, so dense, so heavy, and so full speed that like you can't catch your breath while watching it. yeah So when it you know when it comes time that the credits do roll and it's just been 30 minutes, because there's been no let up, no break, you know you're like, holy shit, like that was a lot. um Yeah, no, I think i think that's valid.
00:42:03
Speaker
and And honestly, I think I think in retrospect, while it might get a lower rating out the gate, I think in retrospect, the ability for people to go back and watch that singular episode or know that that episode is there in like, I don't know, ah you know, binge watching or whatnot. I think that would pay off like, oh, yeah, I love watching just the 30 minute episode, you know,
00:42:32
Speaker
right In fact, I think if it were if it was just a binged episode, you know ah ah a streamable episode that didn't come out week to week, I think it would do a lot better in the 30 minute format. But if it was you know week to week, and that is what you were essentially paying that week with, to get a 30 minute episode, you would feel like you got cheated out.
00:42:57
Speaker
Yeah, i think that's I think that's valid. I think the my only response is that there's nothing that the 30 minutes gives you in this format that you can't get out of an hour, or assuming, of course, we're we're saying all of this with the idea that our standard episode length, there would be roughly an hour-ish, that kind of timeframe per episode. um There's no reason to go shorter is my is my only thing. um Anything you wanted to accomplish in half an hour, you could do over the course of the full episode.
00:43:29
Speaker
I like what Jacob said back in, uh, let's just say episode five or so, and first discussing, uh, the, uh, length of what we thought we should be aiming for. And you just said, let's let the story dictate. And at the end, you know, whatever fits best fits best. You know what I mean? I think it's, uh, I do like, I do like that approach. it's Very interesting. And I liked the idea of it. Just like your.
00:43:59
Speaker
It aids you in writing the blocking it, obviously knowing how intense you want the episode to be like Alan was saying. but yeah yeah knowing the actual length is is pretty hard to do. And you made a good point. in In a binge format, if you're writing this with the knowledge that it's going to get released at once, then obviously a 30-minute fight scene episode is much easier to sell because you can immediately go to the next episode. So you can have that moment, have that conclusion, and then
00:44:35
Speaker
go you know right into the rest of the story. So obviously little things like that I think would also play into how you end up wanting to structure everything. I think in a weekly release, it's a little it's just way easier to sell a show that is consistent um so that audiences know what to expect when they sit down at 8pm on Friday night. They're getting an hour or a half hour if you want to make everything a half hour. that they' This is what they're blocking for, that kind of thing.
00:45:06
Speaker
So it's a, it's a much different, uh, you know, a much different decision based on formatting and and things like that. Uh, now I just want to know, um, has any other show done that, uh, go ahead and put in the comments if you know, a show that has done a shorter late season episode. Yep.
00:45:26
Speaker
Thank you. I can tell you right now, Acolyte did it and it did not pay off, but Acolyte didn't pay off in general. So I was going to say, you know, because that's because that's maybe one of the distinct properties that they've run into the ground. so um But that has been a major criticism of a lot of the Disney Plus shows for Marvel and and Star Wars. I don't think episode length is their problem. I think storytelling is their problem. But episode length has been something that's been criticized because they'll have episodes that are an hour long and then followed immediately by an episode that's 37 minutes. Mandalorian did this a lot and in the last season where you would just have one week was this awesome
00:46:12
Speaker
you know action-heavy, great you know plot, whatever, long episode, immediately followed by like a conversation episode that was legitimately with credits, like 32 minutes. And you're like, God, okay, well, that was a waste of a week. Let's go. it's just yeah you know the The whiplash there is really hard.
00:46:31
Speaker
um But again, would have worked a lot better if I was able to binge the whole thing on a Saturday morning. So, you know, hindsight is 20, 20. Yep. Yep. Very interesting. All right. Well, uh, I got nothing else. You got anything? Yeah. We're kind of just rambling here, but, um, I guess we probably should go ahead and wrap it up. We'll do another, uh, I guess, I guess we'll kind of, I'm thinking out loud here. I think we'll do another.
00:47:03
Speaker
ah episode after we've read the epilogues to do sort of a season wrap-up before we present it to to Nick and Hannah um as we tend to do. Good times. This is such a fun story. I can't speak for Alan and Michael and everybody else, but this is the type of thing that I would, will be casually just sort of picking at.
00:47:27
Speaker
in my brain. it was I was picking at it before we started the podcast. It was just sort of one of those fun thoughts. So um if you enjoy talking about adaptations and worm adaptations and anything else, and you think to yourself, man, I really want to talk about worm adaptations with these guys.
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00:47:46
Speaker
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00:47:51
Speaker
We're constantly talking about this stuff all the time. And we're sharing meetings and we're sharing other insights and thoughts. And, uh, that way you're now you're all prepped. When we start reading ward, you could just carry all those thoughts into work. That'd be great. That's right. You heard it here first. We're reading ward. We're not done. Even though we're almost done, we're not done. Join the blast. We're never done. Never done. I never miss.
00:48:21
Speaker
And with that and nothing else on the docket for tonight, we'll see you all in the next one. And as so always, take that you worms.
00:48:37
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening. Read along with us at parahumans dot.wordpress dot.com. We'd love to hear your thoughts. What did you love? What did you hate? Anything you think we missed, et cetera, as long as it's kind. If you'd like to get in touch, you can