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Epilogue: Teneral
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This story isn’t intended for young or sensitive readers. Readers who are on the lookout for trigger warnings are advised to give Worm a pass.
Complete list of potential triggers: here
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Episode Description:
“Yeah,” Tattletale said. “So. Now that the Brockton Bay Book Club is gone and there’s no need to pretend anything, it’s your chance to say. You guys good? Copacetic? We good to go?”
“Sure,” Rachel said. “I’m not sure I really get what all this was, but I kind of liked it. Made me feel better, where I didn’t realize like I felt bad. Less lonely, maybe.”
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Transcript
Introduction to Worm by J.C. McCray
00:00:00
Speaker
Worm is a web serial by J.C. McCray, also known as Wildbo. You can read Worm in its original format by visiting parahumans dot.wordpress dot.com or donate to Wildbo's Patreon at patreon dot.com. slash wildbo This story isn't intended for young or sensitive readers. Readers who are on the lookout for trigger warnings are advised to give Worm a pass. For a complete list, check the description for all of Worm's trigger warnings.
Emotional Impact of Worm's Ending
00:01:08
Speaker
Gold morning, Brockton Bay. Sticking around for one last time. You survivors. It's. Arc. Tenoral. Let's go.
00:01:28
Speaker
Those who remain. no Those fee as happy few. Well. Happy might be exaggerating. Oh, we few. We unhappy few. We unhappy screwed up few. Yeah. Desperate need of therapy. We scrappy few. Scrappy. That makes it sound like scrappy do, but scrappy few. I have a fun, a fun fact for all of you. Did any of you happen to look up what the word tenoral means?
00:02:04
Speaker
Yeah. No, I did not. So tenoral is a term used to describe an insect that has recently molted in a still soft bodied and immature. no I could think of a couple other things I could call tenoral.
00:02:24
Speaker
i and I know that many of us here are soft bodied and immature, but you don't need to call me out like that.
00:02:37
Speaker
Oh, my gosh, guys, we made it so far. Oh, my God. I can't believe it so far. It's crazy. Yeah, last week felt like the end of the story and it was really emotional. But as I was like reading the final chapter of the epilogue, it just got a hit. It was like, this is it. you We did it. It's crazy. I cried again. It was great. Naturally, as expected.
00:03:06
Speaker
as expected Uh, yeah.
Role of Epilogues in Storytelling
00:03:11
Speaker
yep really Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of killed me a little bit. I have some feelings. I have some thoughts. Great chapters. Oh, oh yeah. Oh man. Should we, uh, any, any pre thoughts or should we jump in? We got a, got a nap to marriage. Oh, yeah you should get your customary memorial Brockton Bay Brockton Bay's sweater or sweatshirts.
00:03:37
Speaker
And we also have a Braxton Bay Book Club t-shirt. Yes. It's got a black collar, and you can't see because I'm wearing a thing, but it's got a black... a The black ringer tee is what it's called. It's got our logo on the front. If you'd like to ah support us and support the podcast and show off some merch that only fellow listeners will get, all... You made it this far. Seven of you.
00:04:01
Speaker
Please, we've confirmed there is more than seven. There's literally dozens of them. this Actually, that's true. It's very exciting to know. but Absolutely. that's That's all my my business.
00:04:17
Speaker
get all that All the announcements out of
Narrative Structures Across Media
00:04:19
Speaker
the way. yeah All the business. yeah I will say that broadly, um I find that epilogues are hard to do well, I think.
00:04:29
Speaker
Right. You've had, you've had the big climax for the story. You've had some sort of resolution and an epilogue can be a dangerous thing because it can kind of ruin your ending in some ways. I think, um, not calling out a particular children's wizarding series, but you know, the one, um,
00:04:51
Speaker
ah But, uh, I do feel like this was a really good epilogue. It felt like a really satisfying little addendum to the end of the story, getting to see the effects of the aftermath of everything that happened, getting to see all the people we haven't seen as much of. And I thought that was really cool. It's a good, good, you know, wrap up, yeah but a nice bow on it.
00:05:17
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I've made my opinion known many a time on epilogues. I really enjoy them. Um, I really like seeing characters after the fact. Um, you know, after, dare I say a good time jump, I like seeing where they are, like seeing and figuring out what's happened in the meantime. Um, yeah. Yeah. And Yeah. And, and this is this, you know, like Nick said, you can do it wrong and ruin what happened before, uh, you know, negate even the conclusion of the story. Um, and as a general rule, I don't think people do their epilogues all that well. It's sort of just like a quick, honestly, I feel like a page or two send off characters say goodbye or, you know, are talking.
00:06:15
Speaker
And then that's the end of it. Um, I enjoy that our epilogue here is in, you know, proportionally fitting to the story. It is a whole arc. It is what six. Uh, yeah, six, yes six, uh, epilogues that feels appropriate. And I felt like I got a good amount. Um, yeah, I'm, I enjoy stories that give a hefty amount of epilogue. Um,
00:06:43
Speaker
Because I think they're really fun. Yeah. Yeah. This, um, you know what it reminds me of Alan, you might be the only one who gets this. I'm not sure. And those in our audience who get it. Uh, but you know, at the end of a fire emblem game, when you've you've beaten the game
Valkyrie's Evolution and Role
00:06:59
Speaker
yeah and it lets you know who, who, who you got to hook up with who and what, you know, what happened afterwards. Um, yeah, that's, that's a good time. It's kind of like that, but better.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, and for that reason, I really enjoyed the fire ending of the fire emblem games. Exactly. Don't get off track. Yeah. Don't get off track. Anna knows I, you know, I had my spreadsheets for fire emblem and a lot of it was getting that ending. You know, the sewer blaing what i got i don't think i make sure the supports are in the right place. Um,
00:07:35
Speaker
and And it was, you know, as a sidebar, it was a, when three houses changed up how things worked, I was like, Oh, this messed up all of the people I thought were going to be paired together. But, you know, it's just kind of how it goes. Right. Also time skip done pretty well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways. Uh, what are we talking about? It's a bunch of nerds, a lot of you. Uh, so i good epilogue though. but epilo yeah ah really Good Agreedly good.
00:08:04
Speaker
I think ah Lord of the Rings does a good one too, just on the topic of good epilogues. um the books do The books do in the sense of like, and here's what happened to everybody afterwards. Sam got married
Valkyrie's Therapy with Jessica Yamada
00:08:16
Speaker
and had 5,000 children. Legolas and Gimli sailed off into the sea together.
00:08:22
Speaker
I was going to say, I mean, token's epilogue is literally a chronological timeline of like the next 200 years. It's great. It's beautiful. How long is it? I never read them. It's a couple of pages. It's a couple of pages. Okay, okay. But it's done like bullet points. Yeah, it's done in bullet points. It's great though. It's very... Oh, it's so satisfying.
00:08:47
Speaker
Yeah it's just like little things like okay sam and rosie get married they have kids sam they don't stop having kids basically sam mary and pippin take turns being the governor of the shire. It is so lovely and aragorn lives to be like two hundred and fifty because of his new menorean blood and he yeah and has many children with his wife arwin.
00:09:09
Speaker
Yeah. Mary and Pippin, uh, go and are buried after they die. They're buried with Aragorn, uh, like little things like that. Gimli discovers that the glittering caves behind, uh, the helms deep is actually Mithril. And so he crafts a bunch of mutual stuff for everybody. And then, like I said, he gets to, he's the only recorded dwarf in middle earth who gets to sail off with Legolas into the, into the west.
00:09:38
Speaker
into the um no and so And the literal last thing that Tolkien writes, I think, Tolkien, other readers, correct me, it's been a minute since I've read it, is Sam, uh, building his boat to go sail. go find I think so. just just slide though yeah Oh, I gee, a little choked up. It's so beautiful. but yeah So great. yeah Anyways, speaking of good epilogues that choke Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. We're getting into it after chapter one. Yeah. Let's do it. All right. Speaking of getting choked. Yeah. Yeah. So we opened up with a chapter one with Jessica Yamada, uh, meets with Kiara Sierra. I read it as Sierra. See Sierra. We have a Sierra though. Yeah. I have seen that spelling of Sierra before though. I thought.
00:10:35
Speaker
I thought it was my first reaction was, uh, what's the, what's hot girls name in justice league, unlimited or justice league. Uh, something like that. I thought it was just, is it just one supergirl? Okay. Oh, you're right. I'm going to say karra just to, just to give us a difference. Uh, Jessica Ama meets Kiara once known as the fairy queen. Um,
00:11:03
Speaker
Kiara debuts, ends up debuting as Valkyrie, coming out as a like official ah goody two-shoes hero, um and then meets up with Riley and the Goblin King. Riley, as we remember, is bones up. Yes. And the Goblin King is Nilboog. Nilboog. Yeah. Nilbogey, man. Still hanging around. Yeah. yes Yeah. Yeah. Once again,
00:11:31
Speaker
Any arc that features Jessica Yamada, I think is a favorite. She is a queen of her and it's pretty, uh, pretty great. I love how chill she is through that whole interaction. She's like, she her life gets threatened multiple times in different ways. And she's like.
00:11:54
Speaker
and tell me how you feel about that. She was like such a great therapist dancer. God, she's fantastic. ah She reminds me a lot of the of the therapist in Rick and
Valkyrie's Internal Conflict and Identity
00:12:06
Speaker
Morty where she's like, it's like how you got to just have the just cleanest, purest mind. you are You are the best at your job to have to deal with ah all of this. You're a good good yeah person. Yeah. Just got to figure it out. Amongst all of the the crap.
00:12:28
Speaker
Yeah. That's the voice I hear in my head when I, when I read her. Yeah. other otherwise actress You got to wonder who's her therapist? Cause that person's got to be even better. Oh my gosh. It's just a chain of more and more powerful therapists for the therapist. Yeah. Like the ultimate god of the ultimate head of the therapist. gaba Absolutely.
00:12:50
Speaker
ah They're like, like in her eye open third eye, like they're so self-aware. baby therapists therapy therapy but who therapist therapist maybe Maybe it's more like a massage train, you know, where they're just, there's just all in a circle. they were passing That was my thought. Yeah. That they like, they all help each other and they'll like talk to each other. I do like the idea of a therapist cabal either way. Yeah. Definitely how they operate. No, I was, uh, I remember I'm pretty sure, pretty sure I was listening to Brené Brown, which everybody should do, but she has a whole thing where she talked about like,
00:13:28
Speaker
She had to go, you know, cause she's a, uh, maybe it wasn't her, but say this person was a therapist and they had to get, you know, therapy. So they had to find somebody who specialized in giving therapists therapy. Nice. And it's a lot of like, I know what you're doing. You're doing this thing. And they're life like, like,
00:13:50
Speaker
So what if I am like, don't patronize me. yeah you i know youre let Your clients get away with this. I would never let my clients go. Then why are you doing it?
00:14:03
Speaker
like go Oh man. Who is it? Who is it? Who interrupts them? I can't remember. Is it? Uh, it's Cavalier, it? Cavalier, Chevalier. Sorry. I'm sorry. I said Cavalier like a, like a scrub. Yeah, it's definitely Chevalier because I just suck off. foer yeah Thank you. Thank you.
00:14:28
Speaker
He shows up at the worst possible time. He's so rude. He's so rude. She's like, I told you not to fucking bother. The worst part is though, is that like, she she's she knows how important this is. Like, I can't be interrupted. And he's like, Hey, so I know that you said not to interrupt you, but I'm going to do it anyways. And we're going to have a really quick conversation right outside where I know she can hear us. And like, she goes back and she's like, so you overheard that, right?
00:14:56
Speaker
yeah yeah yeah oh yeah and for what I know like it's not like it was like, Oh my gosh, the city is about to be blown up. Yeah. Like it was, Hey, I wanted to get a word in. Yeah. In the middle of a therapy session. I lost a few respect. Yeah. Come on. chevalier What you doing? What are you doing, man? also So I don't know where it was said, but the phrase she was technically legal.
00:15:28
Speaker
I'm sorry evolving drinking alcohol maybe oh oh well yeah yeah yeah yeah provide contact yeah next yeah I just have that. We're all like, how do we miss this horrible moment? Hold on. um it's It's when they're celebrating her debut and they're like, oh, she's not old enough to drink, right? And they're like, no, she is. She just looks. Oh, yeah. Oh, right. And she she says it to herself. She says it to herself. No, yeah yeah she's in the she's in the in in with ah with Yamada and she makes herself like a ah drink.
00:16:08
Speaker
Basically, she has one of her, I guess, ah ghosties makes her like a little drink, which I assumed was like a hot toddy. ah That's hilarious. see She lifted the steaming mug to her lips to smell the heavily spiced mead. Blood of the room. Therapist didn't comment, hadn't commented. She was technically illegal, however young she might look.
00:16:29
Speaker
Yeah. And they continue on their conversation. So, so one of her ghosts is just a bartender, like a super powered bartender, basically. Oh, yes. Which is amazing. Like we talked about throwing out the idea of like a show we would like to see. And it was like a super a dive bar for supervillains. And it's like we talked about coil sniper being the guy who man's the bar. But the real answer is that that guy Yeah. yeah yeah well she uses that She uses the fire singer to heat up the drink. She like puts her finger you know in the mud to steam it up so that it's warm. like We think of that D and&D movie bit where it sticks the finger in. like I thought you were put your finger in it. you were just gonna
00:17:17
Speaker
You know what, that's fine. I'll just drink over here for now, for later. So good. Is it time to rewatch the D&D movie? I think it's time to Good idea. If you look at guy, Hymo, where he just lights the candle, he's like... Oh, yes. It's fantastic. Oh, andlo ah gosh Yeah, I think part of what makes that whole therapy session so interesting too, is she's not only having a conversation with Yamada, but she's also working through like all of her shadows and some of them keep coming out and like trying to present themselves and she has to sort of push them back. Uh, we find out to how much more connected she was to Sion that we realized in this idea of yeah how close she really was to helping him win.
00:18:07
Speaker
And then deciding like something inside of her rebelled, like the human part of her, not the passenger part of her rebelled. Yeah. And that's kind of now what she's dealing with. Is this crazy? Who am I? Is this me? Is this the passenger? Like, what does it mean to be me now that Sion's gone? Yeah. So kind of a cool, very cool character. yeah Most people didn't have to struggle with uh, that coming to terms with am I my power, you know, kind of thing, because there was them before they got powers and then they got powers. And, you know, now they are more, you know, ah more than human, their pair of humans, the whole thing they talk about. Um, and, but for her, when it took hold, it, you know, you know, it was arguably more passenger than human when it came to her.
00:19:03
Speaker
Yeah. um It like wrote who she was kind of. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I've written down like talking about how she is much more instinctually aware of who she was as a person and her role than anybody else. And I mean, that's just comes from how she talked about things like looking at how she looked at people because of her shard. You know, the fact that she,
00:19:30
Speaker
Was scion's high priest in the way that like, uh, I think idol on was kind of the high priest for Eden. Um, she's the right hand man to scion. Yeah. Um, yeah. You know, at the, I really do think at the end of this, she collects all the dead that scion kills. And then, you know, yeah offers up that sacrifice.
00:19:58
Speaker
to him and he takes all the shards and leaves for the next planet. Like I think that's how that was supposed to go. Yeah. Um, it's almost like there was a, there was a sort of, uh, there was a backup plan installed in, um, Eden where with the anticipation that she might die or might be killed, uh, you know, what's the backup plan for finding me again?
00:20:23
Speaker
Right. Um, or, you know, as she hinted at, the other option would be Sion, another entity passed by their earth and Sion encountered it and decided to pursue that one instead. But, um, basically, yeah, with the idea sort of like, she was becoming the next entity almost in a way. Yeah. Um, or like, you know, the, the vessel for all the shards that Eden had had.
00:20:47
Speaker
Well, that those weren't and, and science charts too. Oh yeah. They were science cards, right? Yeah. She's not of Eden. Oh, she's not of Eden. That's right. That's right. She's a natural, natural, not a cauldron born. Right. Yeah. Very cool. Very cool character though. Um, obviously a super cool, super power. We've talked about it before. Um, I like that. I like that her, uh, her eavesdropping, I was just looking back through the arc.
00:21:16
Speaker
Her eavesdropping ah shadow is named Rucalais, and I'm pretty sure that's French.
Cultural Dynamics and Valkyrie's Interactions
00:21:23
Speaker
So I just imagine ounce burn she's hearing the whole conversation, but with a ah French accent, which just makes it that much funnier.
00:21:30
Speaker
he saying I love it. Or it's like she's hearing it all in French. Yeah. That's to like mentally translated. Yeah. She's got another shadow just translating the French into English. so I love that. It's like watching a foreign show with a really bad dub.
00:21:51
Speaker
and then But then you've also got the subtitles on for the original language that don't match the dub trying to figure out what's going on. It was like some meat somewhere in the middle. Yeah,
00:22:06
Speaker
her current character would be just the greatest like show surrounding her as the main character. That would be so interesting. i would ah We were talking, I can't remember if it was last it's crazy life last episode or one of the other episodes where we had we were talking about if we could have like a spin-off show of our choice. We talked about having like a hospital, panacea, you know, kind of drama, up but it would be really cool to have like it Be Valkyrie, basically. And it's kind of like, I feel like if it was in the um in the like office style, but it's all the different like ghosts that have to pop up and be like, hi, hello, my name is, and he has to do is like his thing, and then he's like, I listen it, and I tell you what it sounds like, but the problem is that sometimes the translation doesn't quite, yeah you know what I mean. it's like It's back to her and she's sitting there. He said you will be the avocado of their demise.
00:23:04
Speaker
what I love it. And then the the finger comes over and she's like, thanks. Like, ah, that would be great. I would love the one I'm dead. yeah The one, so sometimes I miss i miss feeded her information on purpose. Cause what is she going to do? Extra kill me.
00:23:30
Speaker
yeah Nick, you were saying? No, I was just going to say it. I can imagine just the one character who's basically her Butler. you know It's just, just her Alfred, but it's just a shadowy figure. Yeah. get this So cool. Uh, but yeah, she gets to debut as a, as a hero now, Valkyrie. So super cool name change. Good choice. Yep. She ages up. She ages up. She ages her, lets herself age up a little bit. Weird.
00:23:58
Speaker
I love that she's been storing time. Yeah. yeah She's been using Schwartztante to store time. what Say that again for me? Schwartztante? I'm not saying you're saying it wrong. I just want to hear you say it because I i wasn't pronouncing. Is that the name? I believe so. It's like Black Ante in German. Oh, yeah. yeah Okay, but say it. Schwartz Zetante. Schwartz Zetante is like your aunties. Yeah, no, I just wanted to hear it. That wasn't me doing that thing where I ask you to repeat it because I'm making fun of you. that was I wanted you to repeat it because I wanted you were to repeat it. I know I'm really self-conscious about the fact that I've lost all my German. No, no, no, I'm sorry. No, that was that was purely because i I couldn't remember how it was spelled and I didn't know how it was yeah pronounced when I was reading it.
00:24:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I just forgot that was the name entirely, but yeah, it's this kind of cool idea that now it's allowed her to age herself up. So now she is 19. Not really 19 still, but looks 19. So, um, you know, good enough. I guess technically draw on that to continue like sipping years. Yeah. Yeah. Like whatever, you know, she can kind of age at her own pace.
00:25:14
Speaker
Um, sort of like Alexandria, how when she triggered, when she was like what 18 or 19 and just never really aged after that, uh, like was it like 16, 15, 16. And she had to wear makeup because she never aged. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like make herself look older. Exactly. Yeah. So it was kind of a similar thing or even with bone saw how she started aging. She like prevented herself from aging up. She removed that biological function from her body, which I mean, I guess would be easy. You just.
00:25:44
Speaker
Shit. Hormone blockers. You just shut that. Hormone blockers. Hormone blockers and you take, you got to take out the growth plates, I guess. Yeah. So you don't get any taller. Um, but yeah, but then, then she started aging herself up as well. Right. Yeah. Um, so kind of a, there's kind of a, I don't know, thematically, there's kind of a weird thing there about aging up and becoming more mature, maybe, um, you know, Taylor becoming more mature as well throughout the story. Um,
00:26:14
Speaker
in some ways I don't know. I mean, once again, I just re listened to this part, uh, in a previous podcast. So I it's fresh on my mind. The problem with Taylor as a protagonist is she is a major narcissist, but the problem is she's right every time.
00:26:32
Speaker
so good i it so so like um you all You're almost tempted to say, well, if anybody deserves to be a narcissist, I guess it's the person who literally is doing the right thing every time. Yeah.
00:26:46
Speaker
Once again, she gets so much shit from the PRT, despite the fact that she's never lied to them. She gets shit from me too. Yeah. Like she's only ever come to them being like, guys, there's a big problem. And they're like, yeah I don't know. The last time there was a big problem, it was correct you were correct. But I don't know this time. But I don't know about it. You've never lied to us before, but why should we start trusting you now? We trust you on this. Where does it stop?
00:27:14
Speaker
Where does it end? Oh, God. Anyways, paranoid response team. Absolutely. What are we going to do? Trust all the villains? Can't do that.
00:27:30
Speaker
the other Yeah, any more thoughts on the first chapter? yeah She's got Ciara has some pretty cool or Ciara. Ciara. We'll go Ciara. Ciara has some pretty interesting names.
00:27:43
Speaker
for Chevalier and for Legend. um Yeah. I forget what she calls them. I don't remember either. So Chevalier, you know, given all how the shards work and everything, and especially Chevalier's power kind of being incorporating things, ah she calls him the Destroyer. Yeah. Right. I like that. Interesting.
00:28:08
Speaker
Which another reason why getting anything from her perspective is so cool. Yeah. discciles a Power feels like a building thing kind of, um, and then the Coruscant nave, or which is legend, uh, Coruscant meaning like glittering. And it is, I believe it is spelled the same as Coruscant from Star Wars. Nice.
00:28:37
Speaker
Um, so yeah, obviously nave meeting fool. So he's the the glittering fool, which kind of drives the legend. Just as a side tangent, assuming the internet is not lying to me, which why would it, um, Sierra is an Irish name and is pronounced Kira.
00:28:56
Speaker
Kira. Kira. Okay. The one way I was not expecting that to be pronounced, you know, leave it to the Irish though. here Why should Glastigwenye be any one of my favorite. One of my favorite little, uh, podcast clips is Theo Vaughn being asked by an Irish person to pronounce Irish names. And then he like gets the spelling and then he just like cannot, you need to look it up. It's that are all like that though. That's really great.
00:29:26
Speaker
Yeah, my favorite is English wasn't their first language. So Siobhan's a great name. Yeah, Siobhan's great. ah The spelling it doesn't look the same at all, but it it cracks me up. Same with what's so what's the actress, Saoirse. Yeah, Saoirse. Not how you spell that, but it's fine. Not in general.
00:29:47
Speaker
there Crazy. How is, how is Siobhan spelled? This is a whole rabbi whole week. nest down I O B A N N show show it. It's like showing Siobhan or something. It's i think it's you like oh B H A N. Yeah. a and yeah Yeah. It's crazy. I love it. Beautiful pronunciations, but the wrong hours. How is it?
00:30:12
Speaker
again, Jacob. S-I-O-B a b-H-A-N. No, no, no. What were we supposed to call her? Oh, Kyra, like, like. Kyra. Yeah, Kyra. Kyra. Like, you know what? Like, Kyra Knightley? Yeah. No,-I-E-R-A.
00:30:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. Anyways, names aside, uh, 30 minutes into this in one, one arc.
Valkyrie's Collaboration with Bonesaw and Nilbog
00:30:50
Speaker
one one I mean, this is just typical, right? Yup. He meets with, uh, Riley or bone saw and no bugs or the goblin King. Um, I love no bug. Yeah. No bug seems like he's doing better, honestly. Yeah.
00:31:09
Speaker
you Okay, I'm just hot take other than murdering an entire town. That is fine. What has he done? He wanted to be a left alone in peace. Also, how long ago did he murder that town? Like, what are the statute of limitations? Has it been like 10 years? It hasn't been long enough for those people, I can tell you that. Probably not. He can't arrest you. The other defense that he... The town. You know <unk> Yeah, who's gonna prosecute they're all just jurisdiction now but they can't arrest a goblin and his spawn for the same cry happy god I don't think that's true. I've got to get some better fucking goblin attorneys
00:32:01
Speaker
My only, oh my God. In my, in my head cannon though, uh, no bog does have the voice of lemon grab from adventure time. It's just, wait, that's right. Same. Why? Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like whiny, high-pitched weasel nasally. Well in remember the, in the interlude forever ago where we first encounter when he had his trigger and like started eating everybody in the town. The one with, um, the one with Piget, uh, you know, with the PRT and all of that, uh, he, he like emerges and starts yelling stuff. And in my mind, like he's an incredibly powerful being, but the way he's described just makes me think of this, like.
00:32:46
Speaker
He was described as this, like, really skinny, malnourished-looking guy just yelling. And I'm like, it's just got to be the lemon grab voice. It's just like... Oh! I will eat ya! Because yeah he's in, like, the sack thing underneath, underneath, when they're having fun. Later, yeah. Yeah, when... I'm in the sack. good And then even later as the Goblin King, I just imagine the... You're in my realm!
00:33:17
Speaker
Oh, not okay. I'm going to therapy now. I feel like a lot better. It's just Danny DeVito. For me. It's just Danny DeVito. Not every character is Danny DeVito. Very well. right is just Call me like the goblin man. I hit him over the head and I start gobbling him up. No. Exactly. No. Hold on. I pulled out my my creatures and they started blast.
00:33:49
Speaker
yeah All I can think of is the the clip of him climbing out of the leather couch is like a hillbog coming out of a sack. yeah yeah I haven't even seen the scene that's from. I've seen that clip. It's a sweaty, danny. Everyone has seen that clip.
00:34:06
Speaker
yeah There are certain clips from that show that everyone knows, not just because of memes, but just because that like, I've had some people quote to me and I'm like, Oh, are you a sunny span? They're like, Oh no, I've never seen this show. It's like, yeah, same man. It's a great, great club stuff. Brings us all closer together. Geez Louise. What's the, what's the purpose of the conversation? I can't quite remember. Is it just like, it's just the X villain Denny's club.
00:34:36
Speaker
I feel like you get together every Wednesday morning, they eat Denny's and they just talk about life, man. I mean, I kind of felt like it was a, we gotta keep, like we're, we're not like Valkyrie is a hero now, I guess with her rebrand, but like, great but Yeah. thats a great name No, it's excellent choice. I approve. Uh, no, but like with, with, uh, Riley, like Riley is still on a short leash, maybe a slightly longer short leash. Uh, I imagine they keep an eye pretty close eye on nail bog as well. And it's kind of like, like you said, yeah, like the band back together a little bit, but like, I also kind of feel like.
00:35:22
Speaker
It's, they can't quite let go of that, like, we got to taunt the heroes a little bit. Like, like attitude of like, like we can't show that we're truly tame, you know? And so it's like, well, we're going to get together in this kind of dark, ah it's like, it's like a wing, like a darkened wing of a hospital or, or the PRT building or something. It's like there are cameras, if I'm remembering this correctly, please correct me if I'm wrong.
00:35:47
Speaker
It's like there are cameras, but they can find a little spot to like be alone and talk. And it's like, oh yeah, they're going to be on their way. They're not going to, they're not going to let us sit here. The three of us talking alone for long. Like that's not going to happen. yeah Oh, so I was just rereading it and okay. Part of the reason why they were talking is because Valkyrie's curious if the three of them together can bring dead people back to life.
00:36:13
Speaker
hard She tries it. She tries it with one of no box creations in the body. Like she sends the shard to one of no box Neanderthals, as she calls them, but the body rejects the host and it comes back to her and the reject yeah didn't remember that rejects it and sends it back to her. And so, yeah, so she's like, uh, what does she say?
00:36:37
Speaker
A way to bring back her dead, perhaps, she says of the three of them, they were all parts of a whole, the cure, the cureogen, which is an old word for surgeon, the maker and the keeper of the dead. It only made sense. There would be synergies. And so a way to bring back the dead, perhaps. So there's kind of this, like these two in particular are people that she's interested in maybe working with in the future as well. You know, the surgeon, the, but the maker and the keeper of the dead herself.
00:37:07
Speaker
So kind of a, kind of an interesting idea, kind of hints that maybe, you know, in future stories, she might be experimenting with some interesting things. so Very interesting.
00:37:24
Speaker
Um, just bopping back real quick. Um, when Valkyrie steps out and announces, you know, Or the new heroes. And as the people go like, you already made a triumvirate over again. right Like how
Formation of New Heroes' Team: The Wardens
00:37:41
Speaker
stupid are you? Do we not learn from last time? we never First thing you got to know, never learn. Nothing was the new one. Good for you. is Is it legend Chevalier and somebody else? And Valkyrie Valkyrie. Is she the, yeah they're the, they're the three standing on stage when
00:38:00
Speaker
I didn't realize that she was all now part of the, you know, i thought she was but she's not part of the big three. There are just significantly three big people standing on stage. And the guy goes, look at the guy in the crowd's like, are you serious? Are you doing another triumvirate? No, no, no, no. Starting at the bottom. She got away. It's going to be fair to work her way up. Give her at least three days. Also, did you catch that? What they would that they're calling themselves now? Cause they're no longer.
00:38:30
Speaker
the protectorate, you know? First off, that was a stupid name. I didn't think it was a stupid name. Now they're, well, people were getting it confused with like the proctor at all the time. So like, that was just the whole debacle.
00:38:47
Speaker
we're We're not going to dwell on that too much. Oh my God. i know they would People would come in to take tests all the time and they're like, this is the exam building down there. you know You know, it's just, it was a whole thing. And like the fact that the PRT, everybody thought that the PRT was like short for protectorate. Yeah. Yeah. And not the parabola rebound ah talkers, truth tellers, whatever they would.
00:39:21
Speaker
pretty round titties. Yeah. You know, reduction team. I Shevelier needed that team stat.
00:39:37
Speaker
ah One thing you could never compress. Oh, my. Well, he's got an option now, so he's he's good. Well, we'll get to that in a second.
00:39:51
Speaker
Uh, but yeah, legend, legend gets up there, swears a bit, which is new for him. You know, good for him for stretching his mouth. Do you think him and Riley took swearing classes together? I feel maybe like maybe they sat down and they just like tried to one up each other, except it was like ass. Like, Oh, that's false. Like, Oh.
00:40:14
Speaker
And then, like, legend giggles. No, he's like, oh that's what it feels like to be bad. Oh, that's enough for today. I see why you all do it. It just feels so good to be bad. I love it. what's the And that's how legend becomes a villain. You start swearing, where do you stop? Where's a moral line? It's a steep slope, let me tell you. You start saying, cunt on the internet, and all of a sudden,
00:40:45
Speaker
next thing you know you're you're trying to recreate gold and to feel something yeah that high The first time you said shit and you're just you trying to, you're just chasing that tail. Imagine that legend goes around to like, you know, uh, all, all these like rehab groups and, and AA meetings. And he's like, listen, I used to be right where you were. I would say things like, but
00:41:19
Speaker
A worse motivational speaker. Everyone's just like, he's don't swear. Right. yeah Yeah. But anyway, so they've renamed themselves, uh, to the wardens, which you don't remember from the vision of the ideal future that Eden had. Uh, that was one of the two big teams. I believe the wardens were fighting. Was it the shepherds?
00:41:46
Speaker
I think so. That sounds right. It's been a while. It does sound right though. And we have the wardens. And there's a book coming up called wards. I know that's probably not the same, but I don't know. I haven't read it. Oh, first off. I haven't read it. Ward singular. Ward. Is it really ward? It's just ward. Ward at the state.
00:42:11
Speaker
How disappointing for me. know Well, we haven't been reading worms, Hannah. hungry
00:42:19
Speaker
that worm roast cheese doesn't have the same ring <unk>s Fine, fine, fine. Well, doesn't like his plural titles, does he? No, it's not. He's got what? Packed.
00:42:35
Speaker
Oh, I read a thing today actually, that was like claw the post that he had written right after he finished worm. It's like the end of, yeah and he had a list of like all the future upcoming books that he wanted to do and they're like genres. And like one or two, I recognize the other ones I wasn't sure.
00:42:56
Speaker
you know, what that was. We'll get to that post at the end of this. Okay. Okay. Okay. Cool. Cause I, I was, I was laughing. I was chuckling to myself. Nice. We'll put a pin in it. We'll be back. ah Yeah. Uh, all visions. Uh, also the fact that they're a mega city, they're megaopolis that they're building, um, is in multiple dimensions.
00:43:20
Speaker
And really makes me want to see a story about, uh, just navigating city streets in a New York city. Like style city, but that is in other dimensions. So like, Oh yeah, you've got to go all the way down third street and until you hit the portal. And then you've got to come back to here, but in the other dimension. like Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:46
Speaker
That's like that city in the city in China where like, you never know if you're really on the ground level or whatever. Um, cause it's so multi, it yeah ah used to be there like world war, whatever too, I think, um, like where everyone moved to during the war and all the bomb shelters are now actual buildings and like roads and like, yeah, it's crazy.
00:44:13
Speaker
You never know what. Yeah. Yeah. It looks like night city from cyberpunk. Yeah. That's what I'm asking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. You just got to, you got to hang a left on third street, take a right through the portal, go past Los Angeles on the left ah in an earth bead, you know, earth beta though. So then you can come back to earth gamma. Um, you It just, it'd be a, it'd be a great, it'd be great. It is a fun idea idea though. If you had to go right next door, but you had to go through a portal, go all the way to the portal, go through the portal and then come all the way back just so you could go next door. Yeah. i oh yeah It's like this, I imagine it'd just be this really weird, like space, right? Where it's like one of those, um,
00:45:02
Speaker
It's like the, the, the thing in squid game where it's just like stairs that are all going everywhere, but you can't tell how they're connected or where they're going. yeah right Oh, I went up the staircase, but now I'm further away from where I wanted to be. but Even though but I thought I'd be closer. What's the name of the guy? Alan knows we went to see the museum. see yeah sure Thank you. asher Yeah. yeah yeah eha yeah All the weird.
00:45:30
Speaker
Staircases and such. Yeah. The optical illusions and such. Yes. Yes. And the the stairs that go nowhere and the, the mazes and stuff really, really cool. I don't have a brain for that kind of stuff.
00:45:44
Speaker
Yeah, it's fun. Really weird. A lot of his work was wood burnings and stuff. And stamps, like carving, carving and then doing stamps. So you had to do like the inverted. It was a, you went to go see the museum collection they had here. It was, it was fun. Really fun. Nice. You know what else is fun? Sponsored the podcast. oh that's product Sure is. right hand answer that posture is Is it yeah so me? It's me. Let's go for it. Chapter two at this rate will be done by 3 a.m. yeah That's true. We have spent 46 minutes on chapter one alone and we still have five more chapters. So.
00:46:31
Speaker
Okay. Uh, all right.
Imp's Influence and Legacy of Taylor
00:46:33
Speaker
Chapter dose, or I guess epilogue dose. Um, a warlord terrorizes and gets a visit from imp and the heartbroken children, the heartbroken children, not the heartbroken children. yeah Um, and then imp and shadow stalker catch up like old times.
00:46:57
Speaker
I want to call it that. yeah This is the one I remember the most. Every time I think of the epilogues, this is the first one to come to mind. Oh, yes. Yes. Continue. And then I'll say something. and just Despite this one being the one I remember the most and the favorite.
00:47:16
Speaker
I did, I forgot that it's in winter because yeah for some reason the vibe is like Mad Max. And now I don't know why that is in my head that it's like, they're in like a dusty cave when this happens, but it's in the middle of winter. yeah And that's the whole thing. And I just, uh, yeah. No, I caught on to the like Viking warlord vibes that Nero was giving off.
00:47:41
Speaker
you know, trying to be like a, you know, a Skyrim thane over these people. Yes. yeah Absolutely total thane. Oh my God. No. Okay. Okay. So I don't know if you guys remember this. I can't remember if I said it on podcast or off podcast.
00:47:56
Speaker
But there is a section that I very vividly remember. And as you all know, with my warmnesia, I don't remember jack shit. But i I was telling Alan, I was like, oh, I do remember a scene from Ward and an imp is in Ward because of the scene that you told me about. And I distinctly remember it's like in the snow and and they're driving this car. And then I was reading reading it and I was like, oh, shit. I was actually not remembering that at all. I mean, I was. but I was remembering it wrong and and not from Ward, which was very saddening to me because I was pretty convinced up until that up until this point reading this that we were going to see more of Amp in Ward and now I'm sad. I'm so sad. ah But it was, you know, I feel like, i I mean, I enjoyed it. But this was what I was remembering. I was just remembering it completely incorrectly. So, you know, but.
00:48:53
Speaker
Uh, but yeah, it's, it's good to see Imp again. I freaking love her. I feel like she got so interesting and so funny near the end. And it's like, okay, well, cool. That's the end of that, I guess. So I'm, yeah I'm happy with the fact that she got her little, maybe this is just because Taylor's gone. And now we don't have that like biased lens of like, Oh yeah. And it's just a little shit.
00:49:17
Speaker
i mean And now it's like, no, actually it might be really, is imp really I actually pretty I love imp. Oh my gosh. And just the fact that she's basically adopted all of Regent's siblings. Yes.
00:49:37
Speaker
Not all of them, I assume, but at least all the younger ones, right? Yeah. And just that idea of like, this is my gang of really demented children who I have to. My lost boys. Yeah, these are the lost boys, but they will kill you. Yes, oh my gosh, I love it. There's like the one little girl, I can't remember her name, the little girl who's like, let me kill him. It's like, okay.
00:50:04
Speaker
right it's um It's a despicable me. but but Children are monsters.
00:50:15
Speaker
Oh my gosh. No, that's, you know, that's accurate. ah It's despicable me, but one of your children is Wednesday. Yeah, right. Yeah. yeah it's right I love to in this section, how imp She keeps trying to make like historical references. And one of the kids is like, no, you got the wrong like historical. Just out of nowhere, finally just goes. Nemo or like hero. What? His name name is Nero. What? Nemo.
00:50:55
Speaker
What? She had it rigged up like a fish on the hook and everything like her whole thing. Her whole thing was planned out so that she could like hit this fucking bit. It's so good. Wow. They're making like what, 20,000 League under the sea references or whatever. yeah right Yes. She's trying to make fish references and it's just not.
00:51:19
Speaker
And then she tries like an off-the-cuff Nero joke, and the kid's like, eh. Whatever. You tried. Mid and mid. She's like, okay, look, I didn't have any time to plan. It's so funny. Oh, my gosh, I loved that. I was cackling reading those bits. It was so funny. Oh, I just love that. If you didn't have the kids there, she'd be like she'd be like, you know what? You know what? Forget all this. Forget all this. And then like leaves, and he's just in the room. He's like,
00:51:48
Speaker
What was going on? What just happened? I'll be back. I'll be back. She does that. She does it a couple of times where she's talking to them all. And they're like, they're like laughing at her. The kids are like laughing at her because she's getting it wrong. And she just like bops and bops back in again. And she's like, where were we? And to try and like make them forget so she can like wreck on the whole conversation.
00:52:10
Speaker
yeah
00:52:14
Speaker
Oh my God. I see. I want more of that though. Cause like, here's the thing. Al and I, we kind of, we're talking about this a little bit off podcast about Wild Bo when he writes funny shit, it's fucking hilarious. And I don't know why, but he doesn't, it's like Wild Bo listening.
00:52:36
Speaker
He is Taylor. Sometimes it comes across like you don't think you're funny. Like there are scenes where you write something like, oh, sorry, this is a bad joke. Don't apologize. It's fucking hilarious. And we all love it. There's no need to apologize. It was it was funny. It was very funny. I laughed out loud alone in my house. So don't don't don't. There's no need to like, oh, sorry, guys, my jokes are bad. No, your jokes are great.
00:53:03
Speaker
Never change. Huge fan. Huge. I'll get off my soapbox now. You're right. Alan and I had a whole conversation about this in the car, I'll tell you right now. We had a whole conversation about how... I i don't think Wildo thinks he's funny and he's hilarious. Absolutely hilarious. This just proves it. Write more i write more funny stuff because it's very funny. Don't let anybody tell you different.
00:53:31
Speaker
Oh, man. Yeah, it's a great scene. And this wannabe warlord, I don't even know if we even find out what his powers are or if he even has any. Oh, he does. They do. They do mention it. He does. Track people, doesn't he? Does he track people? I thought he did like tool manipulation. Oh, you're right. Kind of like teacher, but instead of powers, it's like a tool for the right teacher.
00:54:02
Speaker
Yeah, but it's like teacher, but his like focus is tools I thought. So it's um all it says is, um, like yeah. Nero claims that he was good at finding things and finding people before he triggered his power allows him to create a couple of things that he instinctively knows the location of, uh, enabling him to tag people and track them.
00:54:24
Speaker
And then teacher later unlocks his power so he could create more things. So, um, so we were all right. love in the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he, but he's a good tracker who can also make tools. Basically it seems kind of like he, if he knows about something, he can try to imitate it is sort of the idea. It seems like, and he can also track people.
00:54:47
Speaker
Like he has, he has awareness of like, yeah, awareness of objects and people. What'd you say, Michael? He's Mr. PI, Mr. Private Investigator. Oh, okay. Oh yeah. Could have been. Could have been if he, if instead he didn't want to. The world hadn't fallen to shit. If he didn't want to cosplay as a shirtless Viking villain. Who doesn't want to cosplay as a shirtless Viking villain? You tell me. That's a pretty good vibe. I mean, he got abs like that. You got to show him off, you know.
00:55:18
Speaker
You have to, it's a rule. It's written down in the rule of abs. I don't know. Yep. It's true. One of the things I found interesting about this chapter, um, was imp here, uh, protecting children, um, and people in general, uh, she's got these kids, um, she's reading.
00:55:45
Speaker
And she is concerned about preserving a legacy, all things that, you know, Taylor was doing and kind of trying to impress upon. Oh shit. Um, who so like, she just want to be Taylor. No.
00:56:04
Speaker
Well, she talks, she talks a lot about Taylor though as like, yeah, yeah. Like when she's talking with shadow soccer, I think they talk about Taylor's legacy. Yeah. And, you know, and uses it mockingly to be like, well, her legacy is a lot better than yours is. Yeah. that oh And, but just, yeah, like this idea of wanting to live up to that legacy of being remembered, even if you're not remembered necessarily by everyone as a hero, the idea that.
00:56:34
Speaker
you tried to make the world a better place in your own way. And that kind of seems like what she's doing, right? Like she's rescued, rescued these children, but obviously she's also using them. She's using them to terrorize people like Nero.
00:56:49
Speaker
Well, for good reasons, you know, like, you know, kind of like Taylor would, right? Yeah, exactly. Like Taylor with her bugs. It's like, no, no, no. Taylor would have terrorized the children as well. Exactly. Okay. Look, not on purpose though. Not on purpose. She would have had an excellent reason. Yes. And everyone from the side of it, these children deserve it. You know, I mean, they're, they're pretty messed up.
00:57:11
Speaker
Oh, Juliet's the one, by the way, who's like, Juliet. Can we get him now? Samuels, like Samuels, the older one is like, no, it's okay. Juliet. Next time. next You'll get him next time but another time another time. But in that it's interesting because there's the, cause we've also had other people kind of take on the legacy of Taylor, like tattletale clearly has, um, you know, has this living up to Taylor's what Taylor wanted with Brockton Bay and stuff like that.
00:57:39
Speaker
And it's continued that when Taylor was absent and also when Taylor has been dead, Rachel clearly took like everything that, uh, that, you know, she gave to heart talking about how she sits in on meetings. She's like been trying to learn how to read, like, you know, very clearly took what Taylor said and has been like going with it and thinking about it and thinking long-term about things, like trying to expand their mind. And clearly we have imp here.
00:58:09
Speaker
also trying to imitate Taylor in a lot of ways and like taking the things that she was trying to impress to her and Alec, uh, before Taylor turned herself in. And then finally in that spin on what imp has taken from the legacy thing, she also thinks about her own legacy for like herself because, um, ah wrote she keeps other people's legacies alive.
00:58:37
Speaker
um, because she doesn't want to disappear, which is something that she kind of mentioned. She says she's afraid of like, like for real cause because she has to take an active effort in preventing the ability from taking over. it If she dies, she doesn't know if everybody just forgets about what happens. So she is very concerned about not just her legacy,
00:59:08
Speaker
but she is concerned about if her legacy won't last and if that's so, then trying to keep other people's legacies alive through her because those will last. and Yeah, the Imp Shadowstalker conversation is maybe my favorite moment of the entire serial.
00:59:33
Speaker
um To me, it sort of encapsulates like the theme of the story, in my opinion, which is this pursuit of immortality, ah which is a which is a really prevalent theme in a lot of like fantasy and sci-fi.
00:59:50
Speaker
I mean, that's like one of the oldest themes we have in imagination is like surviving forever. And the entities that's their goal it ultimately is is total immortality. A lot of characters are working towards that. That's the general vibe and Taylor very much is in the sense that the way we achieve immortality in a mortal life is to do something deserving of eternal remembrance so that you are just never forgotten. Kind of what you're saying there, Alan. And this conversation between between Imp and Shadowstalker just perfectly encapsulates that
01:00:35
Speaker
goal of Taylor's. Taylor's story is tragic. She doesn't get the resolution of her story, but everybody else does. And when AMP is explaining to Shadowstalker that Taylor won, that she will be remembered forever, far more than what Shadowstalker could ever hope to achieve, it's like this conversation between Taylor's past and her present and her future and seeing this this clear divide of where she came from, what Shadowstalker kind of represents and what she's going for, and and this ah future that Imp sort of embodies with, like you're saying, this building of legacy and this sort of
01:01:27
Speaker
eternal, uh, memory that people are going to have of gold morning and surviving. And the fact that the nail in the coffin for shadow stalker is that ultimate knowledge that she lost to Taylor is just beautiful. She will never do anything that equates to Taylor's contribution to the world. And that is just like it It's the ultimate victory. It's, yeah it's, yeah it's beautiful. It's like, this is the epilogue to me. I just love it so much. Yeah. It's a great scene and it's a, it's a reflection to write of that earlier conversation between Taylor and shadow soccer, where she's like, I've outgrown you. Like you're still mad at me. You still hate me. And I just don't care anymore. And I'm, I'm bigger than this. There's bigger things going on, but you're still.
01:02:20
Speaker
Down here thinking about petty squabbles we had when we were in high school, you know, not that they were petty by any means, but just in Taylor's mind of like, yeah, compared to the yeah compared to the things that are happening now, it's just not even the same. Um, yeah, it's a great, it's a great scene. I think it's fitting too, because, you know, imp and shadow soccer have that whole, you know, you tried to kill my brother kind of thing.
01:02:44
Speaker
um And so having the two of them have any conversation at all is really interesting. I did um as a kind of a side note to this, I was looking at the Wiki to figure out like all of the kids powers for the heartbroken.
01:02:57
Speaker
um as i did for so yeah yeah I apologize. um I didn't realize that. that ah is i use it Sorry, not to interrupt. No, it's not a spoiler, not a spoiler. This is a ward spoiler? No, not a ward spoiler. I'm pretty sure because this happened in the past. So because it was that question of like, oh, how did how did Aisha get all of these kids? It's like, well, I know it's alluded to the fact that she killed Heartbreaker. Yeah. But the line that got me was like with the assistance of Citrine, which I thought was really interesting. I was like, oh, I didn't know Citrine helped her kill Heartbreaker. That's kind of.
01:03:34
Speaker
It's a fun, um, cause she was one of the chords people. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and her thing was kind of that nullification field. So it's a, it makes sense that Aisha might ask somebody like Citrine to write help her take out the emotions guy. Um, yeah gosh so, but yeah, I was just looking, looking mostly for the main kids. Um, cause you know, and I mentioned Cherie and you know, Alec.
01:04:02
Speaker
Um, and then a couple of the other ones who weren't there. Uh, but yeah, Samuel is the boy. Um, he has the ability to get accurate information by torturing people. Um, and has the ability to sense where people are, you know, yeah it's it but it works. Okay. for sure That works. Yeah. All right. Uh, Juliet can physically paralyze a person as long as she is standing still.
01:04:28
Speaker
And the other one mentioned floor or Florence. Um, she has the ability to implant permanent post hypnotic compulsions on people she has physical contact with.
01:04:40
Speaker
Uh, so basically that's why the whole, like I'm a little teapot thing where they're forcing Nero to to do things. Basically empasane, you're not going to sell drugs anymore. And floor gives him that impulse, that post-ignotic impulse, but he's under hypnosis singing. I'm a little teapot the whole time, basically. I was trying to understand like what her power was exactly. Um, and trying to figure out exactly how that functions. So it was very interesting.
01:05:10
Speaker
group of kids. I didn't try to read any more past X. I didn't want to spoil anything, but those are the the things that stood out to me. Do we see more of them? There's a lot more named in the Wiki. I don't know how significant they are. Um, there's, there's a lot of a heartbreaker kids. Oh, yay. I mean, he's got a bunch of them, right? He had, he had a few of them. I was going to say that's all he basically did. He had a. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:40
Speaker
That was his full-time job.
01:05:46
Speaker
Most disturbing harem anime since their last one. Yeah. yeah but Chapter three. yeah sorry Yes, we can move on to chapter three. OK, all right.
Defiant's Quest to Fix Dragon's Code
01:06:04
Speaker
Oh, yes, the dragon one. OK, so Defiant is trying to fix dragons code. ah They talk and then he loads Pandora and she and dragon fight.
01:06:18
Speaker
um This is this is i but it I this is one of those chapters where I might need a little bit of smart people explanations. I was going to say, I have listened to this and read this a bunch of times and I have never, like I've grasped the concept of what's going on. Yeah. Yeah, same. But I have no idea why the hell that's happening no and what the conclusion is. Yep. Um,
01:06:54
Speaker
And I just, I gave up this time. I finished it. I read it. I looked it up and then I reread it. And I still don't think it's like, I see it now, but it's not fully satisfactory. Yeah. It's not satisfactory for darn sure.
01:07:11
Speaker
Yeah, i I read it and I got to the end and I was just kind of like, I could do that thing where I literally what you just said, I look up, look it up and read it again, but I don't want to. Yeah. so i did it' fair Also fun fact.
01:07:27
Speaker
I remember exactly what I was doing and where I was when I listened to this the first time, this chapter. So for amnesia, girl can't remember a damn thing. But I remember I was on the treadmill in the gym listening to the audio book at where Al and I's old apartment where we used to live like wow seven, six, seven years ago.
01:07:51
Speaker
I remember very clearly because I had to get off the treadmill and sit on the bench. I was over on the bench and shut up and just like sit and listen because I was so confused then. And as I was reading this chapter this time, sitting on my couch, I was like, oh, I remember where I was when this happened because it was also just as confusing. Yeah, I came into this so like as much as I could remember. And then I read it and it was all the things I remembered.
01:08:20
Speaker
And still none of the, like I was hoping it would, it would, it would be better. Like my memory was bad. Nope. My memory was fine. It's just a really confusing chapter. So my, my understanding from rereading a little bit of the ending and just looking at the Wiki without trying to spoil too much for myself of Ward.
01:08:41
Speaker
uh, which I didn't, I avoided, um, basically my understanding, I believe, you know, we'll see, hopefully ward Nisha will be just as active now as warm Nisha. Hopefully basically my understanding of what happens is Pandora had the choice to either destroy the newer, the future dragon and become dragon, but instead.
01:09:07
Speaker
Helped rewrite some of the broken parts of dragon's code and then basically left it out for dragon to find. And then deleted herself. So that way the current dragon could pick it up, use it to help free herself and move forward. ah Um,
01:09:27
Speaker
So initially it's it's written as though. Defiant made Pandora or reloaded this older version of dragon that he calls Pandora to defeat dragon to be a freer version of dragon. But in reality it seems like he's trusting her even more than that to say you're going to be.
01:09:49
Speaker
tempted to just destroy her, but I know that you won't. I know that you're going to do the right thing and help her. It's sort of like he's admitting, I can't fix this. Only you can fix you, but you have limiters that prevent you from fixing you. So I'm going to make you fight each other until code smashes and eventually it's better is basically the vibe I get. ah Um, cause I was looking back at the, at the arc where she's at like the Keystone. Um, and she says,
01:10:18
Speaker
Basically, uh, instead she laid all the pieces in place. She couldn't explain there wouldn't be time. She set down the encryption protocol in plain sight. She decrypted set systems, painting paths, marked boundaries and territories. She could only pray the gamble was a price she paid to leave it to fate and luck to a future her. She didn't understand. And then looking through cameras that defined in dragon and or deleted herself. And so then.
01:10:48
Speaker
Uh, yeah, then she was able to, uh, yeah, then dragon wakes up and she says she knew the damage she was doing, but she cut. It was a cancer and it was now small enough. Then she found herself there, the encryption and deletion tools in hand, nothing more to cut. And that's when she walks up to a defiant and says, I love you, Colin. So basically, yeah, basically.
01:11:14
Speaker
Pandora was able to get close enough to destroying her to see what was wrong with her and then left her the key to the code. That's, that's my understanding of what happens. Yeah. Okay. that Pretty good understanding. The big problems here are that dragon has, uh, none of the things holding her back that she did before.
01:11:41
Speaker
that like being in multiple places, having to listen to law enforcement, as far as I'm aware, like she doesn't have any of those limiters she had before, but she can't, like there's a bunch of weird limiters around teacher that she's not allowed to do. and That's what they were trying to get rid of. Yeah, so they're trying to get rid of that. Pandora on the other hand has all of those limiting factors from before, like two years ago before. Right.
01:12:09
Speaker
But she's uninhibited by teacher. right right yeah So in order to essentially have some sort of synthesis. Best of both worlds vibe. Right. Okay. The options are that Pandora who has been like inside of a box with no communication, just observing things for, I forget how long it, they said, like catching up on stars, but not experiencing it. Um, she Pandora, AKA the bad dragon Pandora is my box until I drag him. Oh God. It's a bad joke.
01:12:55
Speaker
Jacob, your head was down to your head went downing so going to choose to believe that it was just, it was you. That was just Jacob. Yeah. Uh, but lost my train of thought now Pandora has been in a box. pin's been in the box So when he lets Pandora out the scenarios, cause he is also gambling. He doesn't know genuinely what's going to happen is that Pandora, who is, you know, sort of caught up on things, but doesn't have the full relationship with Colin, maybe, you know, or is being missed out, ends up destroying the new dragon. But in the process, we'll take the remains, you know, of that dragon and, and, and like, at least we'll be, uh,
01:13:49
Speaker
not under teacher's control. yeah Yeah. She'll be what she used to be, which is, you know, not great, but she's used to that. The alternate option is that new dragon ah destroys the old dragon, but in the process finds the old pieces that are missing and uses like looking at her scrap of code.
01:14:12
Speaker
to see what teacher did to like get rid of that. Like compare the differences and basically say like, Oh, this is a problem here in this code. And this is that isn't in this code from the older version. Yeah. Cause Defiance not good enough. He's not about to go get saint to do this for him. Obviously. no no ah So like dragons the only person that can do that, but you also have to have multiple dragons out at the same time, which is something that like Pandora is still under the, like the thing of like, I can't let two dragons live. Yeah. Um, and so, uh, that's why Pandora goes after hers. Cause she has to kind of yeah attack. She's still under all the rules and regulations. And then the third option is the synthesis option and mass effect, which is.
01:15:01
Speaker
Um, that Pandora is winning and essentially cuts away, ah like the cutaway, a lot of stuff at each other. But the big thing is, um, cut away everything, but the personality so that there's no inhibitors on it, but they also can't do anything. And then place the personality of dragon into.
01:15:30
Speaker
all the code that's functional, but stripped away of everything else, you know, that is holding her back. And that is ultimately, and, and she has the option kind of to like, she's in a position where she could just kill dragon and become the new dragon and be fine, but there can only be one. And instead of killing dragon, she kills herself.
01:15:55
Speaker
And then dragging can just roll up in essentially all of her kind of take over that part of it. Yeah. Yeah. And and the reason she does that too, right? If she realizes I would have to, you know, Colin would have to start over again with me. Like he has years of memories with this dragon that I will never have that. And so I think there's kind of that.
01:16:20
Speaker
You really do see that love that dragon has developed for Colin where she's willing to say, I'm not. You know, and even then she realizes like, would I, if I did kill dragon and supplant her, would I even then be free? Because then am I living just under the shadow of the old dragon who does have all those memories and experiences with Colin and is that worth living that life? Even if I'm.
01:16:44
Speaker
free of other restraints, but not free of the social restraint, so to speak, or the memory of the older dragon. And so yeah, having her delete herself is kind of a, so it's a very beautiful like act of self sacrifice there. Um, to just say, I'm going to give you the tools to live the life you've wanted to live and I'm going to, you know, cut myself out of it. So but very weird arc. It's kind of hard to read.
01:17:13
Speaker
in some ways as many arcs are that are dragon focused because it's the, but it was good though. It was good. Yeah, no, I don't feel like I've had that problem with the other dragon. Like one, some of them when it goes on a long time about like rebooting system, this system, code stuff can get a little you're like, Oh, you're like I don't, I'm skimming. you're skimming yeah We're not, that's not yeah exactly. how we ill about yeah about my one note for that chapter is just clarify, please. Like I don't, I was discussing this with some of our patrons, uh, yesterday. So, you know, if you want to get in on those discussions, you should join the Brockton Bay book club. patronon It gets very nerdy. Very fun. Um, and we spent a long day talking about stuff like this. And, uh, one of the things I was talking about, like, this is not dark souls.
01:18:07
Speaker
In fact, this is sort of the opposite of Dark Souls where like Dark Souls is written with a vague story in mind, but it really is like even the writers don't have definite details when they're writing these things. This is the opposite of that. Wildboo has all of this stuff. In fact, this is that is what I would say the argue that he is known for is having answers or if not like a complete answer like an idea of what he was doing even for the most asinine stuff.
Confusing Narrative Styles and Comparisons
01:18:40
Speaker
Yeah. Um, so like he knows what's going on. This isn't an open to interpretation event that is going on. And yet it is written in such a confusing manner.
01:18:58
Speaker
Like even though i would are you even the word interlude where like you see the full vision of the worm creatures. Has a like narrative it starts you're not quite sure what's going on because you're a worm.
01:19:14
Speaker
And then as it builds, like your understanding builds with it and you're like, okay, this makes sense as things go along. I just are the worm. No, I never like that i feel like that sums up my entire experience with worm. I'm the worm. I am the worm. Turns out I was the worm all along. I am a what i asked the worm taking it all ah you only and And we love you for it. um yeah Would you still love me if I was a worm? Of course. Liar. We had this discussion.
01:19:52
Speaker
That's a conversation that even Sion had before she crashed. That was midpoint, guys. Sorry. Sorry. I'm sorry. We're doing great. It's it's it's an hour and 19. We still have three more chapters. Comparing it to our Dark Souls. This is not an open interpretation thing. This is not like, so why is it written in the most confusing manner possible as opposed to we've had other confusing chapters, but those are like,
01:20:23
Speaker
I don't know. yeah They're, they make sense and, and are written to be understandable. This is written and I can try to think of a word and the best word I can come up with is esoteric. We're like, there are some times where wild bow just gets really needlessly wordy in his chapters where the, the verbiage and the paragraphs, like there's a reason I probably skimmed over this the first time I read because I was just like, this doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Oh, and then Pandora got it. Okay, cool. We're done. Like, cause you know, it just, it's just written in such a, maybe just clunkily written. I feel like, I feel like part of it is that like,
01:21:18
Speaker
when it happens, because that I feel like this happens a lot where we'll run into, it and um I'll say specifically from my how I read, but like, I feel like there have been plenty of chapters where i'm I'm reading and I'm like, I don't, I don't know what just happened. And I have to ask for clarification in the podcast. Cause I'm like, okay, someone who remembers the whole breadth of the story, please tell me. And it's like, some of it is meant to be vague on purpose because it's like, oh, stuff gets revealed later. or We get clarification later and like, okay, that makes sense. There are times like this chapter where I'm like,
01:21:57
Speaker
you You can just tell us. Just tell me, please. because i'm and And I know the rule in general is don't talk down to your readers. like don't Don't write down to your readers. like Don't treat them like they're stupid. You don't have to spell it out for them. I'm stupid. I need you to spell it out for me. adams are Unfortunately, that's where we're at. I think it's just that like,
01:22:27
Speaker
there are sometimes assumptions made that's like, oh, it's confusing, but like we get it in the end. It's like Hannah did not get it in the end. Hannah needs additional explanations. Uh, and, and I feel like even with this chapter, it was like, did I get that? Like, yeah. Okay, cool. I guess I did, but it still feels like there was a bunch of stuff in the middle that I don't like, not to say that it doesn't matter, but that it doesn't,
01:22:56
Speaker
add, if that makes, I don't know if that makes any sense. Yeah. I was going to say there's the opposite problem of this is in Lev Grossman's magician series, the very first book, which I i think is just called The Magicians. It is. yeah Lev Grossman writes events so fast.
01:23:20
Speaker
which I enjoy a lot of the time, writes things so fast that you will miss events yes because it is four words yes in a paragraph or as a line and then on to something else.
01:23:35
Speaker
There's an incident and a fight where a character, like you're reading and the fight is a big paragraph and in the middle of it, it just goes. And then, uh, so-and-so got both of their hands bit off and so-and-so died. And then it goes into a long description about something else. yeah i'm I'm just, I'm trying to. Yes. Confuse things, Hannah. The spoilers, sorry you know, and and it just, but it's just so fast. You're like, Oh, like, wait a minute. You get to like the end of the, you know, the chapter and somebody's talking about, you know, so-and-so's, you know, Oh, someone says blue now. And you're like,
01:24:09
Speaker
Wait a minute. Did I read that? And you like go back and you're like, Oh my gosh. Like the worst, and the worst thing is when you read, when they say something like, so you recall that so-and-so is blue. And you're like, wait, I'm supposed to remember this. His blue skin shown, you know, turquoise and the light. Why? And you'll go back in his thing. And he it's a one line, one and in a sentence that is like four words.
01:24:38
Speaker
And you're like, he got turned blue. And you're like, well, of course I miss that. This is the opposite problem. Wild Bo is saying so much in this chapter that does not matter that it loses its meaning for the explanation is losing the meaning in all the words. Maybe. I mean, I feel like I kind of followed what happened. Maybe you guys are just dumb.
01:25:05
Speaker
I know 100% Hannah is dumb. I am guy will ride that surfboard all the way to the beach. It's definitely a bit of a, it's a big one. Is this yeah the conclusion of our beloved dragon? Is this their end of their story? This is her last, her last ah epilogue. Yeah, it's her last thing. Her last bit yeah in. how do we now that Now that we've broken it down, what actually happens, how do we feel about I mean, it's nice that she gets a happy ending, you know? Me too. I feel like she and Colin have built their relationship up slowly and they deserve a happy ending. Like they deserve to finally have that. Yeah. I know Jacob's a big defiant Stan. Give me that metal cock. I'm sorry. What did you say, Jacob? We were talking over it as well.
01:25:57
Speaker
I'm not gonna repeat it. Damn it. Okay, we'll rewatch it and figure it out. Perfect, thank you. Cyborg. Anyway. I thought you said, but I wanted to make sure. The cy-bussy. The cy-bussy. Yeah, exactly. The cy-benus. No.
01:26:20
Speaker
I love their characters. They're they're fantastic. i love that that worm ah I really appreciate these epilogues because I've said this before, I love that Taylor's story follows the trajectory of like a traditional, very traditional tragedy in terms of a lot of the beats that her story hits are are very tragic. yeah um And despite the fact that the world ends in a very tragic way as well with just immense destruction and loss of life. It's not all tragic and the epilogues are really hopeful. They're really uplifting. They're really positive. They're all of our favorite characters for the most part, essentially coming out on top.
01:27:07
Speaker
yeah in terms of their characters, ah which is which is great. It's a really nice contrast to the very, very bleak ending that Taylor's story has for the most part. Final level look aside. but um yeah yeah But ah no i i love i love the way that these these character arcs are are very very satisfying for madam effort in time that we put in to reading it when you get to this point you want you need a little bit of good news. And so yeah i think it's all it's enough you know. And i think that you know i can i said defiant and dragon have kind of earned this ending they are characters who.
01:27:51
Speaker
Although, of course, and not always helpful to find in particular in Dragon at times as well due to her coding. um We, I think by the end of worm, you really do come to appreciate them. You come to enjoy them as characters, especially that big character moment where Defiant acknowledges, yeah, Taylor, I messed up our relationship. If I treated you differently, maybe things would have been different between us and I regret what I did. Like that's, you know, having that huge character moment, even Defiant's willingness to admit, I can't fix the person I love, only she can in trusting
01:28:28
Speaker
dragon to fix
Character Growth of Defiant and Dragon
01:28:29
Speaker
herself through Pandora is also just a beautiful growth for him too. Cause he definitely, he never would have done that, you know, five years before he would have felt I can handle it. I forgot also just, you know, in the moment that Pandora jumps into Colin because she knows that dragon won't attack him. Like,
01:28:55
Speaker
She's in his cybernetic parts. And that's why she has to like shed all the stuff so that she can get into his cybernetic implants and then attacks dragon from Collins like body. Yeah. like Yeah. Yeah. And a note out there to everyone who's ever wronged me in my life. But if you build me a jet pack, I will forgive you. Important lessons from worm. It's true. It's true.
01:29:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Good arc. Good arc. We're happy for it. Yeah. Nice. Confusing in the middle, but ultimately a good end for the two of them. Arc, uh, quatros. Yep. Uh, all right. Rachel comes to town, uh, tracking a dude, um, and then runs into and fights a new monstrous trigger.
Rachel's Growth and Relationships
01:29:52
Speaker
Um,
01:29:55
Speaker
And she has a little talk with ah Miss Militia in regards to her own territory, how it's being run and how things will be in the future.
01:30:07
Speaker
Oh, Rachel. Speaking of characters that have grown. Yes. Arguably at most growth of any character. Oh my gosh. Most growth award for sure. ah but Most improved player.
01:30:24
Speaker
Yeah, yes, for sure. Gosh, it's so it feels so good to see Rachel thriving in this new space for her and like like hunting the bison and like living out very, very ah frontier, you know, this frontier lifestyle. And I just love that for her. I want I want that for her. And she has this crew and and like even the little conversation about like Oh, I just want french fries. Like, like, is that what you need to be happy is french fries? It's like, but i but I love that, like, she's reaching out. There's there's so much more of a connection there. Like these people become her pack. And she's not thinking just about like the current moment, but like thinking about the future. And we talked about that a little bit already. But yes, this idea that like being around Taylor impacted her for the better and like she grew and changed and like
01:31:21
Speaker
I don't know, like she's always been a pack leader, you know, type, but like worthy of a good pack now, you know, like, uh, yeah. ah Totally.
01:31:34
Speaker
I love this image of Rachel as like the Ronin coming into town, you know, there to scare off the bandit to capture the sheriff. ah so go So good. So good. Once again, I just had another great show. just creates yeah Do we call her Rachel Earth Gimel Marshall, like Rachel ah Marshall Manhunter?
01:32:03
Speaker
I like that. Gimmel Texas Ranger. Yeah. Gimmel Texas Ranger. I like that a lot. Yes. Gimmel Texas Ranger. It's fantastic. ah And I feel like there's some implications too that she might have some relationship involvements with one of her crew members too. Biter. Yeah. Well, Biter. Okay. So Biter.
01:32:28
Speaker
Um, by doing her have have done things, but I felt yeah more like, like Cassie has a crush on her kind of vibes is kind of what I was thinking. He's always had a crush on her yeah confused because clearly I thought Cassie was like backpacking at that one time and they were like spooning on the couch. And I thought that there was like, I don't know.
01:32:51
Speaker
some lesbian relationship going on there. I think Rachel just, Rachel fucks. I feel like that's going to come down to. She's like, Rachel, Rachel's just, her mindset is like, listen, a fuck is a fuck. It doesn't matter where it comes from.
01:33:08
Speaker
Listen, anyone who's owned a dog wants to hump something, it's gonna. Doesn't matter what it is. Okay. All right. Where were we going to go? I wasn't sure. How do you tell when Rachel's in the mood?
01:33:29
Speaker
oh my gosh but she'll walk up to you and she'll tell you no but you know okay there's uh just on the back of the couch rachel you all right
01:33:44
Speaker
No, know what I'm, what I'm imagining is a, do you guys know that like there's that really cringy old meme where it's like a girl holding a guy's face and it's like, this is the look he gives me when he's either hungry or wants to have sex or something like that. that i know am see please but chat im fine but I'll see if I can find it. You don't need to find it. It's fine. But it's basically that. I just imagine like like people have gotten to know her and it's like they look at her long enough. They're like, the face oh, it's the look. And it's like, got Rachel, are you hungry? And she just goes.
01:34:23
Speaker
but no No, she just growls low under her brother. Michael's gone! Michael's gone! He's like, I can't be here anymore, please. Please let me go. I'm not hungry, but I need to eat.
01:34:42
Speaker
a oh Wow, the game panic sets in fast, don't it? Also, I really hope it's not this face because that is i Come on. You got to share. Share with my share with the group. Share with the group. I was there and know. i on the video of aine card is sending it now but Let's move on for now. Yes. Yeah. We'll circle back. in Oh man.
01:35:12
Speaker
Oh, good. It's a fun conversation she has with Miss militia at the end where they. I'm sorry. No, I don't know. I'm posting it in the memes. This one. Yes. Oh, no, no, no, I don't like it.
01:35:41
Speaker
yeah that Not great, Nick. What is that face? I hate that so much. oh Your algorithm's messed up, man.
01:35:55
Speaker
Yeah. You know, listen, listen, michael's got this is like an old name. This is like a, this is like a 2016 meme or something. And it's just burned into my memory. oh Listen, like I can't remember like half of my coworkers' names, but I can remember. being shiver just yeah First off, you don't need to know your coworkers' names. Listen, no, I sometimes I think that my brain has problems because I'm like,
01:36:25
Speaker
like i I have like an encyclopedic knowledge of like random Pokémon and Magic the Gathering cards and all of that, but I cannot remember for the life of me what my neighbor's name is. It's like I know every single Weird Al lyric on Earth, but I can't remember my mom's birthday. It's horrible. So many times.
01:36:50
Speaker
Don't ask me to remember a date at all. I will never know it. Oh Oh, I got really warm in here all of a sudden. Miss militia something. Anyway, she talks to miss militia. Oh God. Yeah. Fun conversation between them. Finally, sort of getting on the same page a little bit. Barely.
01:37:19
Speaker
Barely trying to, you know, making concessions, trying to... It's very much the like, are we cool? I'm cool if you're cool. Are we? I'm cool if you're cool. Are we good?
01:37:31
Speaker
I respect Miss Militia's dedication to the law, you know. Yes. She's so good. The law. She is, in D and&D terms, she is the lawful good paladin. Yes. Oh, what a peach. Yeah. Will not waver from her oath. And I respect that. Oh, I love her so much. She's, it was nice to see her again too. I feel like you know, in a way we get to see a little snippet of her post-gold morning, but I, she's always, she was always such a, I don't wanna say encouraging face, but like always had good things to say and good input and a good perspective in terms of like Taylor and Rockton Bay and yeah, it's good to see her again. And I'm glad she survived, but I gotta ask so how?
01:38:26
Speaker
so yeah She has one of the least survivable powers, I would say. Want to put it gently? Well, it doesn't have to make sense. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm glad you made it. Wanted murder.
01:38:46
Speaker
More of her is good. yeah It's like it's like a being left with Falcon ah in Marvel or whatever. How did this happen? What the hell? How are you the survivor? yeah yeah Of all the superheroes, those mean all the gods are dead and there you stand. And it's just the archer. He's like, um a cool guys. Yeah. No, all the super powered people died or left. and How did Hawkeye, Black Widow and Falcon survive? They're just people.
01:39:19
Speaker
right Yeah. Um, oh man there's some, okay. So I, I, one of the important things I think we should talk about, which feels like a plot seed for Ward is this trigger event.
Plot Seeds for Ward and Critique of Villains
01:39:34
Speaker
Yeah. Where it's like.
01:39:41
Speaker
There's two things that are weird about it. One is sort of like trigger upon trigger, where like a person, they kill the person who triggered, but then they triggered another person with the same like shard. Same power. So they keep going and then they kind of have to like kill. Yeah. Multiple people to stop the chain from happening. In addition to that, uh, Rachel keeps experiencing what appear to be memories of Scion.
01:40:10
Speaker
if I'm gathering them, right? Because one of them at least is, you one of them at least is the memory of Sion killing Eidolon. Yes. Oh yeah. Yeah. You're right. It's weird. So it's this weird where she's like, she's like, it's like the shard is sharding out, um,
01:40:36
Speaker
uh, emotions in memories of Of him.
01:40:44
Speaker
Of Sion. Never trust an emotion. never true Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially an emotional chart. You never want to have an emotional chart. Stop it. You could tell we've been recording too long.
01:41:01
Speaker
Sometimes you think you just have some emotional gas bubbling up and then you decide to let it out. The walls are breaking down. Just shart your pants. Just shart your heart, so to speak. Yeah. Shart through the heart, as the song says. Shart through the heart.
01:41:25
Speaker
I think you are running around leaving shards.
01:41:34
Speaker
I'm going to stop shot breaker. I was just going to stop recording. I'm going to download while we all took a little breather. OK, fair enough. I don't remember what we were talking about.
01:41:52
Speaker
ah Miss militia, how she survived. Gold morning ah and yeah conversation with Rachel.
01:42:04
Speaker
yeah carcan Yeah. I like that miss militia takes the efforts also in that to try and work with Rachel. Yeah. Another example of the lasting legacy that like Taylor specifically built on with the two of these people. Um, despite, you know, butting heads with once again, both of them.
01:42:29
Speaker
And now they're both coming together and making that extra effort that Taylor made with both of them. Like Taylor went out of her way specifically for miss militia when it came to dealing with the PRT. And then also for Rachel, like Rachel was, you know, her pet project and trying to figure out how she worked and help her be friends, you know, kind of be friends with her, you know?
01:42:58
Speaker
yeah This is also there and she's a badass. This is such a badass. I'm glad she made it. Yeah, me too. Yeah. I needed one word to live. Oh, gosh. maybe Maybe that's secretly the the main character of the second book. It's more because they're the last one. it's just Because there's no one left. Oh, no. Yeah.
01:43:26
Speaker
It's depressing. Yeah. Another, another good little, little conclusion though. Um, getting to see a bit more about Rachel and kind of her growth and everything. So yeah, like Rachel, she cool. Nice send off. Yeah. Another great spin off show. Yes. So many hassh frontier, but Rachel and giant mutant dogs and bison. Oh, cool.
01:43:54
Speaker
ah
01:43:58
Speaker
All righty. Chapter five. All right. ah Chapter five. Teacher enters a building and breaks out Anjunu. They escape after a bit of kerfuffling. And lung kills Simmerg's child. Then Teacher and Anjunu meet up with Marquis and discuss some future plans. oh Oh, Teacher, the bastard you are. Yeah, what a...
01:44:29
Speaker
What a mess. I do not like that, man. um No, no, me neither. Well, we had to have kind of a villain set up, right? Showing that. Yeah. These guys are still active and trying to trying to pull one over on everybody. I don't like him as a villain, though. Like I can like it's it's it feels like if you're going to have a villain, like you need to respect like coil coil was interesting. He had all the plans, but like, you know,
01:44:58
Speaker
He was interesting as a villain, as a character, but like, teacher, he's just a fuckface, and I don't like him, and I'm not excited about him being a potential villain in Ward.
01:45:09
Speaker
I don't like it. Looking at all of the mastermind villains we got in Worm, Poil, Accord, Kaiser, Marquis, we get like the cuck, you know? Yes. Oh, no. God damn. me I. Hey, at least Marquis is still alive. The rest of them are mine. Marquis is great.
01:45:35
Speaker
I love his little statement when teacher asks, how's your daughter? And he's like, I could lobotomize you it's really easy i hide down through your nose. And so he says it so calmly to like, I'm going to lobotomize you. Yes, exactly. That Michael.
01:45:57
Speaker
and But also he's just like. You just have that face and that tone of voice where it sounds like a threat. You can't say anything without it being a threat. and No. And you can't say anything without you sounding like a cuck.
01:46:11
Speaker
You're like... You're gonna sound like it either way, so just don't speak. Don't bring up my family, please. Don't ever speak to me or my offspring again. Or my offspring ever again.
01:46:27
Speaker
i it's it's It's almost like teachers trying to make this like league of villains of like... But no one wants to be on the league with him. Nobody wants to be on the league because he's boring.
01:46:40
Speaker
He's so boring. ah Oh my God. I feel like even on caring his chapters boring. He's so like, I thought, you know, in big scheme of things, like I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt because I honestly forgot about this chapter that like.
01:47:01
Speaker
Oh my gosh, maybe he'll improve. But then we got to this one and I was like, man, it's boring inside his head. He is boring inside and out. Like, holy cow. His thought process is like, Oh, what were you trying to do? Like,
01:47:18
Speaker
Oh, uh, quick bullshit, some stuff. Oh, let's try to make waves and ripples and see what happened. Uh, things went off and then I, but I did another thing and oh, I saw what happened there too. Yeah. It's like, wow. You realize like the opening is basically him.
01:47:37
Speaker
learning, like you getting to realize that he's bullshitting the all of this all the time. And then when they ask him for his explanation, why he killed a vice president, he's like, Oh, I needed to see what they would do. Really? What did you think was going to happen? He's just, Oh my God. Imp says it later. And I was like, you know what, imp, you are right. Teacher's plan is stupid.
01:48:04
Speaker
Like, he's so dumb. And this chapter was so boring and I feel justified because I looked it up. Wild Bo was like, of all the epilogues, that is the one I would rewrite that shit. That is going right. I did not like that one. no yeah think great Teacher strikes me as the kind of guy who tweets about all the flaws and Tarantino films. Like oh how how he would improve them. But also like he secretly wants to be that. Like he's the guy who would write himself as the protagonist into every story. Yeah. yeah Love to hate him. Hate to love him. Love to hate him. Yeah, he's rough.
01:48:52
Speaker
That's actually all I got on this arc. My greatest notes. Oh, yeah, we got to talk about one and the Simmer. Oh, yeah. A little bit. And Contessa being there, too. And Contessa. Oh, right. Anjanu being a good girl, but only part time. Fucking love Anjanu. I will say, I will say, I think it's funny. How do you make Anjanu boring? They talked for too long.
01:49:15
Speaker
I mean, maybe, maybe a little bit. Also, she's fun because she's like a little dangerous and a little flirty and you're like not quite sure what's going to happen. And so here she's just like, no, I got bored. Let's go. Which is not exciting. Yeah. um No, but it's funny to me that the most exciting part of this chapter is teachers staring at a screen.
01:49:36
Speaker
And long doing all the fun stuff. Yeah, right. Yep. How about that? Because that's like teacher's whole life is just like watching other people do the things that he tells them to do. Yeah. But yeah, no. OK. So. First, just to make sure I know. The gun that Simmerg makes.
01:50:00
Speaker
It's a model. So the whole thing is part of the in the chapter, the talk about the summer can't make her own weapons. She's not creative, but she can modify from things she's already seen. The gun is clock blockers or no, not clock blockers. ah Kid when kid when it's kid wins gun, right? it's But that's what I'm from. gold morning she I was going to say she's made. She made his guns on gold warning as well.
01:50:26
Speaker
Yes. On gold morning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that seems like, this ah go ahead. I was just going to say too, it seems like there might be a bit of Chevalier in there as well. Just from my impression of it. Okay. Essentially. Although Chevalier is not technically a tinker, I think just like gaining knowledge from him sort of. And yeah um and then of course it seems like, yeah, with bone saw as well, um potentially. Oh yes. Making a baby.
01:50:56
Speaker
Seems more like a... What was that guy that was trying to clone? Blasto? Yeah, yeah, Blasto. She was wearing Blasto. Riley was wearing it. It's giving Blasto. It is. But less marijuana. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then lung boils the baby.
01:51:22
Speaker
yeah Yeah, he does. Hey, can you keep my drink up? And I love, oh teacher teacher was a says like ah a no, don't. And I just imagine him saying, cause he's just behind a screen, right? He says it with the Willy Wonka intonation of like, no, don't. not no no no And it's like six, what is it? Like 30 minutes after the fact. He's like 30 minutes behind. He's like, no.
01:51:50
Speaker
We've been talking about him being a cuck and him sitting here by the screen and for some reason it's he's in a wife beater, of course and he like staring at the screen like no Just got like a little bit of Cheeto dust on us his wife Oh, see I was imagining him in a polo no, it's like a red it's like a brick red because he thinks that's a cool color and That man does not own anything with collars. I mean, his name is teacher. I feel like he he could.
01:52:28
Speaker
He could wear it. He could get away with some sweaters. It's a day. That's what it is. actually allen That's what it is. That's what it is. He's not wearing a wife beater. He's wearing just a sweater vest. Just sweater vest. He's watching the screen. He's got the sweater vest, a bottle of lotion. No, no, I disapprove. I disapprove.
01:52:57
Speaker
ah Hold on. Hold on. Also poor Alan is so out of focus. There we go. We're back. We're back. I saw it. I was trying to get it to fix itself. It got there. Yeah. Is there a is there a particular reason? Wait.
01:53:13
Speaker
The memes I just posted exactly what he looks like. That's exactly what he looks like. Wait, it's just the guy from Toy Story 2. Oh, yeah. Yes. Oh, that is exactly what I got. It's the bowling shirt. It's the bowling shirt. Yes. Oh, my God. Absolutely. I'm not going to be able to think of anything else. He thinks he's so cool in his bowling shirt. He's like, it's so unique. It's that but a white bowling shirt. Yeah.
01:53:39
Speaker
With the Cheeto dust on it. We need to be white so we can see the stains. You guys said Cheeto dust us and I was like, it's Al. I got it. Yeah, yeah i still ah I still stand by my my fan casting. I got a... Who is it? The guy who plays Gail from Breaking Bad, David Costabile. He also plays a villain in suits. And i he does, I think, a really good job. Because even in suits, right? He's a villain, but...
01:54:09
Speaker
he He always feels like such a bitch. It's not like an intimidating villain. You're just like, you bitch.
01:54:20
Speaker
You know? Wait, so say the name again? David Costabile in suits. I can't remember the name of his character. He's in Breaking Bad as well. Yeah. Yeah. We, uh, we mentioned it before yes yes yes talking about him. Yeah. He's like old, uh, yeah. John Favreau or whatever his name is. Yeah. Yeah. No, he, he's very good. I think he would be very good as teacher as a fan cast. That's a great fan cast. Yep. Um, he wouldn't know. Yeah. Yeah. So lung does the most interesting thing of killing Simmer's baby. Um,
01:54:56
Speaker
You know, maybe she'll make another. Wouldn't that be cool? Oh, I'm sure she will. She'll certainly try. Alan's face just... Yeah. ah Propagating and populating a whole species of samorphs. Oh, that's not dangerous at all. Mighty samorphin power rangers.
01:55:16
Speaker
but friends Mm. Mighty Smorphin baby rangers. Oh, God. It was a bad joke. Thank you. Thank you. That was deserved. Owned by yourself. No. The voice of God speaks. Yeah. Anyways, I actually, yeah, I feel like there's not much to say about this. There really isn't. Epilogue. That's all my only note. Yeah. Yeah. And Mark Wiese doing Mark Wiese things.
01:55:44
Speaker
Yeah. and The, love the lobotomy thing was my only note. I just loved that so much. so it's good I could give you a lobotomy. It's like, Oh yeah. if you your own Your own bones to do it. I'm not going to lie. I think this was the first chapter and maybe it's just proximity to teacher that made me annoyed with marquee. But like, I think I, I think I've ultimately reached the conclusion that marquee would be incredibly annoying to be around. Speak for yourself. No, no, no. Like Anjanu is right. I think it's Anjanu is right. She talks about like he switches between being like the people's villain and high society on a dime whenever it fits him. And he would just be the like, like don't use big words when like,
01:56:39
Speaker
so you know a small one would be sufficient and then turn around and be like, we need to ameliorate this entire conversation. And you're just like, right shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up. I mean, he's giving me the Scarlet Pimpernel vibes like crazy.
01:56:56
Speaker
so yeah He's giving me only one side of the Scarlet Pimpernel vibes and I'll let you figure out which one. I do like how all the like the really smart villains and worm feel like just us casual average Joe's just cosplaying as the elite. Would you like some tea? Yeah.
01:57:20
Speaker
me I was just scrolling through the arc, uh, again, and just trying to catch things. And I do love to the interaction he has initially with Anjanu. He's like, Anjanu, how's the love life? It's like the person he says to her, like knowing that obviously that's going to bother her. That's so good. Like, dude, what, what, what a way to start a conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Do you just pick the most annoying conversation starters? Like,
01:57:52
Speaker
on purpose and no if's not it just because you're bad at socially interacting. I think it's the latter. No, I think it's on purpose. I feel like he's been taught by all the experts, like you said, and he still doesn't get it. Yeah.
01:58:10
Speaker
Yeah, either he's an idiot or he's just playing 3d chess with people. And I think it's, he wants us to think it's 3d chess. He really does. He has no plan. His is just like, Oh, what am I going to do? with people Let's just reboot cauldron. That's, that's his whole plan. Yeah.
01:58:31
Speaker
Teachers. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. All he wants to do because he doesn't have an original bonus. Yeah. Screw teacher. Screw teacher. I'm talking about Marquis. Yeah. Me too. Marquis is not much better. I'm pretty sure Marquis. Shit. Michael, could you mute Alan, please? We like Marquis. Um, I could, I could see fan casting maybe like Carrie Elvis.
01:59:01
Speaker
I gotta look up all these people when you say the name. He's Wesley from The Princess Bride. He's older now, so I don't know if he... That would be fabulous. No, he looks great still. Yeah, he still looks good though. He does. Yeah, like I can imagine him with black hair and like a mustache kind of thing. Like he was in Ellen chanted maybe. Yes, oh my gosh, yeah. Holy macaroni. Anyways, but yeah, I also do love the part where teachers like,
01:59:30
Speaker
So I want to talk to your daughter about this proposal to form a league of villains basically. And he's like, so here's my offer. I want to talk to her and just see what she says. And Marquis says, Hmm, counter offer. I talked to her and I don't kill you. I love it. I love it. Oh, so good. Oh gosh.
01:59:54
Speaker
Wow. How did Carrie end up going from looking like the most perfect like princess bride, like he is the hero to looking like the ultimate villain. How did that happen? God, this man is incredibly good looking.
02:00:09
Speaker
what is so yeah You either die the hot and sexy hero or live long enough to become a sexy, sexy villain. Sexy, sexy villain, baby.
Final Arc Reflections and Taylor's Ambiguous Ending
02:00:18
Speaker
God, he looks great. Wow. Odd dog. Sir, you've aged exceptionally well. Yeah, he's and got the jeans. Yeah. the The one part of the art that I do like here with teacher and Markey.
02:00:33
Speaker
Okay. um i' slipped by there no sorry get you what means Uh, I do think, I do think it was funny though, at the end of the arc, they're talking right about manipulation and power, which kind of like with the shadow of soccer conversation with am one of the major themes of, uh, you know, worm has been power who has power.
02:01:00
Speaker
No struggles for power and all of that. So that ending there of like, you know, him saying there are such things as extremes case in point teacher says, I think I know who you're thinking of. She had it all and see where it got her a lesson for you teacher. And it was enough to give teacher a moment's pause moment to pause. Yeah. Just that I thought that was referencing Taylor to be like, look, we've experienced in a sense, somebody with ultimate power, so to speak. And yeah.
02:01:28
Speaker
I mean, ever I'm sure everybody believes she's dead, right? Like that's the implicate. Like at this point, if, and if we're reading this is in the web series, I choose to believe she's dead, but we'll get to that in a minute. Okay. All right. But, um, but at least if we're reading this like web serial in point, right, the last interlude has not come out yet. So everybody's thinking she's dead. You know, so I don't know. Yeah. Last interlude, maybe we can move on to since you guys seem to have a lot of feelings.
02:01:58
Speaker
Yeah. ah It's crazy that that actually was the last interlude to end on a teacher note, but this has been great guys. I've really enjoyed the soul stories. I don't think there's any reason to go on from here. Well, i look at that why I'm so glad they only made one matrix movie.
02:02:15
Speaker
like
02:02:20
Speaker
Okay. Well, interlude X. Um, ah the interlude of the epilogue, really. The end. The end. Um, a teenager and a woman walk onto the train. They talk to each other. Uh, we jump back to the undersiders gathering in, um,
02:02:44
Speaker
Uh, and, and mourning those who they've lost and they pour one out or those fallen, uh, jump back to the, the, the teenager girl, uh, meeting up with her mother. We realize it's Taylor. They talk and then Taylor leaves with Danny on earth. Bet a left. You're on a left. Okay. Yeah.
02:03:17
Speaker
Interesting ending. It was a choice. i What's the choice? Yeah, no, I'm not going to lie. If we're going to point counterpointed, I will stand in the defending this chapter section. Okay. Would you like to go for first? Or would you like me to tell you my thought? I'll go real quick just gotta to get it out of the way.
02:03:41
Speaker
so The story ends if you didn't have the epilogues in because I forgot about I knew this epilogue happened, but I forgot the context of it. But I remembered how were improper ends. And in my opinion, if you didn't have epilogues, she's alive because Contessa would not need two shots to kill anything. It's specifically two shots. That's very, sure yeah very, very critical.
02:04:12
Speaker
And that always to me, even though the epilogue was very, very vague, intentionally, very like end of inception, does the top fall over, you know? Oh, who knows? And I like that, I like that. But in in my reading of it, it reads as she's alive, that her connection to her power and the shard was severed. That's what the second bullet was for.
02:04:38
Speaker
or the first, you know, it doesn't matter. um So in that sense, I like this idea that that Taylor gets to live, but without without getting what she really wanted, which was recognition. So she still has, it's it's it's very much an epilogue for the fans. it's not for the It's not for Taylor's character, but it allows her to survive, which appeases people in that regard.
02:05:07
Speaker
But it doesn't, in my opinion, it doesn't take away from her character arc because she's still, she's like there's nothing beyond her death that changes her character. She doesn't get the satisfaction, she doesn't get the recognition, she doesn't have the knowledge, she doesn't have her friends. She doesn't have her mother, right?
02:05:29
Speaker
um You know, so it's, it's an interesting arc. I, I like it a lot. I i respect anyone who doesn't like the chapter, but I think, I think it's kind of nice. I think it's an interesting take on those vague endings that are a little cliche. but yeah And I, I think too, I also like, I do like this ending because I think it adds a nice.
02:05:52
Speaker
kind of full circle moment for Taylor story where here it does feel like, you know, Weaver skitter. Capri is dead. Like that, that person is dead. And now we're just left with regular old Taylor trying to figure out how to be a daughter to her dad again, right? Trying to figure out like, what does it mean to be her?
02:06:20
Speaker
And cause the story really begins with her in a way, running away from her dad, having it sort of come full circle where they're reunited. You see them that they're reunited and she gets to talk to an alternative version of her mother. Um, it's interesting. I i don't know that. I don't know. I actually, I do like it. I think in the end, like having that, yeah, like Jacob said, having that clarity of, okay, she is alive, but her story is done. Like it's good to know.
02:06:50
Speaker
You know, we don't need to worry about what's going on with her anymore. She doesn't have powers. Um, and I think having that there too. And of course, I don't want to neglect the fact too, that if nothing else, the undersiders conversation is really good here. I think that that part, I really liked that wrap up as well, getting everybody back together one last time, having them, you know, pour out libations for the dead and them, you know, hinting at it.
02:07:20
Speaker
Uh, hinting at Taylor being alive still, but also kind of having some, some reconciliation within their group about what they're going to be and who they want, you know, what they want to do and all of that. So. I don't know. I liked it. I guess if I, if I did cut one part, the opening part of the old lady talking to her on the train felt kind of weird. Um, like it was interesting, but it was like, eh, probably could cut that.
02:07:47
Speaker
I don't know. I liked it. I'm curious to hear what you guys think though about what yeah what you didn't like about it. I mean, I think my biggest my business my biggest feeling about it is I really love the tattle tale scenes. i I think those are great, but having Taylor be alive, it feels like when you're reading a book and something's happening and then the character wakes up, like it feels like a cheat.
02:08:15
Speaker
way to so so relieve that emotional distress of like, it's okay. It was all a dream. Like, it's okay. Taylor's not really dead. She's alive. And she gets to be with her dad. And she gets to have all this closure. And for me, maybe, maybe because of like,
02:08:35
Speaker
I've connected it very much to the the book series that I'm writing and how it I intend to end it. But like, spoilers. ah But like, to me, it feels like Taylor Everything that Taylor went through, it feels like her dying with Contessa, you know, staring up at the stars is a very fitting end to her. And i I mourned her. I cried and I let her go. And now to have her kind of come back, it feels a little bit like a
02:09:08
Speaker
JK just kidding like and and and I cried again like I cried reading this again Because it felt like like part of it was a relief that like oh, she's still alive I'm crying but it was it was disappointing to be honest because it felt like Almost I don't want to say consequences but feeling like after everything that happened it feels fitting that Taylor should should die and that she should, that she should, that should be her end. And that she did give the ultimate sacrifice and lost herself within it. And that here in the end, that it is the end. And when I when i read the part with the Contessa and the two shots, I totally, that it was a double tap. You know, we've watched no zombie movies to know, but like, it so so in my head it wasn't,
02:10:01
Speaker
She there was no chance that was it. She was dead. I was convinced and it it it felt like a betrayal to bring her back like
02:10:11
Speaker
I don't know. And I i think that's Alan. I like her and Danny kind of walking off into the sunset a lot, but it doesn't feel like we've earned it. It feels like it feels like the inception ending where we're like, well, I'm going to tell myself that this is the happy ending. But in my heart, I don't feel like it is. And that's kind of it. It has that feeling for me of like, I can't I can't trust it almost.
02:10:38
Speaker
And it doesn't matter, because we're never going to see Taylor again, because she's in this closed off world and she might as well be dead, like you said, but like, but we know. And and not only be the reader, but Tattletale and Imp know and Rachel, like they know. And somehow that's even worse that they know. And it's like that's heartbreaking for me, because it's it felt like her sacrifice and the end that we are at least I thought she had gone through is like null and void.
02:11:08
Speaker
because, oh, it's OK. She escaped. It's fine. And she's with Danny, which is even better. And she got that closure with her mom, not mom. Like, everything's wrapped up with a tight bow. But like, it doesn't feel like it should be for Taylor. And like her whole thing has been this black and white and all the gray space in between that, like, I don't. Yeah, I don't know. That's no good where I'm at. I think that's valid for sure.
02:11:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah it's what it's interesting. It's one of those um tropes that I think just really hits or misses depending on the audience and the story. like I think to the end of ah Nolan Batman films, right? And it's literally the exact same thing, except it's done over a beautiful Michael Caine monologue. and so and Michael Caine monologues with everything better.
02:11:58
Speaker
you get just a generational actor like that putting in a fantastic performance with a subtle nod and you're like, oh, like it's so, like you don't care. It's beautiful. It's a great end. You know, it's, it's beautiful. Um, I mean, if I don't mean, sure, Alan's going to Alan, but, uh,
02:12:19
Speaker
But i I totally I think i i mean I agree with what you're saying. I think that's a pretty valid ah viewpoint for Taylor's character. It's weird to like there's times like I'm thinking of Doctor Who when This was solely for the fans, where they wrote the entire clone of David Tennant's doctor being shunted off with Rose so that they could live there happily ever after. And like I'm not a huge Doctor Who is nerd, but from what I understand, that was pretty well received.
02:12:55
Speaker
So, like, it's just one of those things where I think it just depends on the fandom and like the vibes that everybody's feeling, you know? Yeah. um It's tricky. It's definitely tricky. I think I. Oh, go ahead, Alan. I agree with Hannah on this. i I think it's I'm trying to remember what movie I saw recently that was like maybe an animated movie or something where the character goes you know, makes the sacrifice. It might, it might've been arcane season two, honestly, um, makes the sacrifice. And then they like kind of are in this ethereal realm or something. And they're like, Oh, we did it. Everything worked out. And the person goes, well, no, you did it. But like, if you, you know, if you didn't sacrifice anything, then like, it wasn't a sacrifice. Like their dad, they're like, Oh, oh shoot. And you're like,
02:13:53
Speaker
This isn't about to be that happy. Oh, and everybody made it out moment. It's like, Oh no, no, you, you succeeded, but they died. Like, cause that's yeah what a sacrifice is. And like when Taylor got shot by Contessa, I, I also thought two bullets, one to paralyze, one to blow out the Cora Corona Polentia. That's exactly, I thought it split right down the brain and pop that little bad boy out.
02:14:22
Speaker
Like a, you know, blew it, blew it right up. Like you're trying to come up with something, but yeah, we'll go just blow those refried greens right all over the ground. yeah So, all right. So I assumed that that was like, uh, maybe she's alive. Maybe she isn't. We'll never know. And we don't need to because either way ah it's a fitting ending. We've come to our conclusion.
02:14:51
Speaker
This is the epilogue post Taylor. We're seeing the ghost of Taylor, if you will, in all of these characters, all the repercussions of Taylor, what she did, how she lived, and ultimately what led to her death. And then you get, you know, half of this chapter. And I remember reading it.
02:15:12
Speaker
And even the first time treating it like fan fiction, like, yeah, this was, I didn't, I didn't, I never felt like this was canon. I felt like this was literally, Oh, wild bow wrote a, what if story at the end, you know, like it's a, Oh, what if Taylor made it? I never treated this as.
02:15:37
Speaker
anything but that. And in that it's like, okay, cool. She gets to talk to her alternate mom, which is weird, but sure. Whatever. about Um, we yeah. And she's, oh, oh, Danny's alive too. Why wouldn't it be? This is the perfect happy ending. What if story. So like, once again, this isn't cannon do whatever you want. Wild though. And, you know, just all that to suffice sacrifice don't mean anything.
02:16:07
Speaker
It cheapens the rest of the, you know, the blow. It kind of undoes the story narratively of where we went. And this really does just feel like wish fulfillment for the people who want to bet ambiguity solved in a, oh, and she made it and everything turned out happily ever after. Especially when it has no consequence because it's the end of the story. Why would we need this?
02:16:34
Speaker
Yeah. I like it better as a tragedy person. Yeah. Like full on beautiful tragedy. I could see, and I, and I could see leaving it up to the ambiguity where you have this interlude just with the undersiders part, because they talk about it where they're like, so what, like, you know, if Taylor's still alive and tattletale kind of leaves it like, well, ah maybe, yeah you know, and so you could even, you could even leave it with that. I can, I can definitely see that.
02:17:04
Speaker
I don't see a difference. Sorry, not not to cut you off. Nick, go ahead. No, no, that's, that's pretty much it at at the same time though. I think just recognizing that having Taylor basically be a victim of circumstances her entire life, having her have this now sort of freedom here at the end. I think there's something nice about that. Maybe story story. Yeah, it is like a nice little bow on top. Maybe that.
02:17:35
Speaker
I don't know. it Yeah, it's interesting. There's bright sides. The, the, her, uh, with her bad hand, when the lady grabbed, you know, Annette Rose grabs her hand and that like kind of like pops off and she like has to grab it and stick it back in and starts like doing her caveman speak where she like doesn't speak in full words, maybe because her brain hasn't fully caught up, you know, to speaking forward since, you know, she lost everything. She's like, I'm meant to, but I've got a bad hand now. And I like.
02:18:05
Speaker
was like, Oh gosh, like that got me a little something about, you know, that's right. She lost a lot, you know, not just mentally, but physically too. And, um, and, and I do enjoy, I do enjoy these moments of getting extra stuff. I just don't think in the flow, if you're reading this or this is the last chapter of worm and this is what you got. Like,
02:18:36
Speaker
I would, have I'm, I would have loved this chat. I would have enjoyed this chapter. Maybe not loved. I would have enjoyed this chapter if you wrote this literally with ah a, I was coming up with alternate solutions of like, Oh, what if it was, you know, what if she did make it to earth, the left and was alive? And like, yeah, that's cool. You know, same as all the other, Oh, what if Taylor died during the lung fight? Oh, here's the welds introduction interlude. Um, you know, that the, he wrote a couple alternate scenes, which we can read, and those are just as cool, but they're not canon. Sure. I think the um think the way I view it, because i've I've been a huge advocate of the tragedy genre being applied to Taylor's story specifically,
02:19:24
Speaker
and also a staunch opponent to character deaths in general. So this is a fun story for me. um But i see I see Taylor's tragedy unfold not in the traditional sort of um ancient Greek or even Shakespearean versions that, oh, no, everything's leading to doom and death, but more it's is that she does fail to achieve what she wants, which in her eyes, like I was kind of mentioned earlier, is that immortality. It is that that legacy. ah She achieves it for her bet and all of her friends, but she doesn't get that.
02:20:09
Speaker
she still fails to receive all of that, that what she desires there. um And I think she ever desired immortality though. I'm using that as more of a thematic thing. She never says that, but I i think that's Taylor's ultimate goal is to make a difference and be recognized for that difference is in short what she wants to do. She wants to fix the system. You know, you could word it a bunch of different ways.
02:20:39
Speaker
Yeah. Cause I would, I mean, I would think like just given her goal orientedness, I don't feel like she needs, especially as time goes on. I feel like the recognition is less so of a thing that she needs. She, I think she literally is just the goal oriented. This is what I was trying to accomplish. I was going, I i read it as straightforward. I need to save the world because the world needs saving.
02:21:08
Speaker
I don't think that's a, I need to save the world because I'm part of the world. I think, or you know, she, in fact, by the end, she's completely separate from the world and is still fighting to save it. Like she did it because she's a very utilitarian character. This is what will save the most lives. If I have the trolley problem in front of me, she's gonna, she will not hesitate for a second to pull that thing. So it runs over the one person.
02:21:36
Speaker
like that's such an easy problem for her. yeah And so for me, i don't I don't think this is a matter of recognition or of ah immortality in terms of her legacy and making a difference. I think that she just wants to do, like ah maybe that is making a difference. She just wants to change things for what she've used as the good. And I don't think that's like defiant on the other hand, yeah when we, you know, arms master,
02:22:07
Speaker
is what I would argue is he wants to change things because it's in recognition of him. And that's not to say that he wouldn't also, he doesn't also have a moral goodness there, but it's, I don't know. I feel that more line closer serve with what you would. Yeah. I'm trying to find, because there's a moment in this arc that I'm specifically remembering in this chapter where She basically says that she has to live the rest of her life in Eartha Lef with the knowledge that nothing she does will ever matter as much as what she did in the past. Yes. yes She talks about how her life is essentially dead. She's essentially died. Her yes life is essentially over. that's really that's That's so much more interesting to me than just killing a character is ah letting a character achieve everything they wanted to.
02:22:59
Speaker
not in the way they wanted to do it and then be left unsatisfied with having succeeded. with None of the benefits. Yeah. it's It's just, I mean, and obviously this is all, you know, ah subjective and that's what's beautiful about art in general. um But yeah, i think I think she's such a fascinating character. i I enjoy wrestling with the concepts the story gives us yeah with her being alive kind of in this ending.
02:23:25
Speaker
um It's just a different way of of sort of ah viewing her arc in general. but I can but definitely understand though where Hannah and Alan are coming from. Oh yeah 100%. Oh yeah and I can totally get what you guys are coming from as well. Yeah and and the idea... I would have been very happy with the with the just ah death and no no epilogues would have been very satisfied with that.
02:23:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, I was talking with, uh, one of my brothers recently talking about writing. He's been working on a poetry project. And one of the things we had talked about with poetry has out how so often less is more, it's almost like the less you say in the more you imply the more powerful the words can be. And so I can kind of understand that in this case where there is that less is more where it's, you leave it at the ending of worm.
02:24:18
Speaker
And then that's it, that's all that needs to be said. And I think, I think this may be the symptom of a web serial where people are going to go, you know, it's not a novel that's trying to end on a poignant moment. You know, you've edited it and published it down to have that one last final line. It's a web serial where people have been following these characters for years, potentially. Um,
02:24:43
Speaker
And so I think, I think I get it from a writing perspective of I don't want to disappoint my fans and just leave them with this ending. I guess good of an ending as it is leaving them with, it feels unfair maybe. Um, and so like, so we ended up with the epilogue and a lot of it is really good and it, you know, wraps up a lot of things that we wanted to see wrapped up, but I can definitely see this last interlude. Um,
02:25:09
Speaker
At least the, the part with Taylor, I think the undersider stuff was really good and I really liked that. Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did like that. so I think you could do almost this whole interlude with ah like her section. Like I would, I would probably be satisfied with it.
02:25:28
Speaker
if she literally did not spell out who she was and what she was doing. If you if if you kept it more ambiguous as to like who this person is that we're following on the train. Because when she's on the train, you don't know who she is. And you have like these moments that she's talking with the old lady and she mentions gold morning and it's like, okay, so clearly this is someone who was at gold morning, but there's a train and I don't feel like trains should be running. So where the fuck are we?
02:25:58
Speaker
This girl sits and talks with this woman and basically says, how am I supposed to live my life when essentially I've i've i've died and nothing I do with my life will ever be, like there's nothing I could do is and absolutely nothing that will ever have as impact as much as I've done already. And it's literally a philosophical question, not a narrative one.
02:26:25
Speaker
This is not, this shouldn't be the character wrestling in narrative almost with another character. This should be a question posed to the audience as a thought problem, but it presented in a way between two characters. And I wish that it was like that. And all you'd have to do is just not say it's Taylor.
02:26:47
Speaker
That's it. That's all you got to do. you could even mention show the arm yeah You can show the bionic arm. You can show the bullet holes. You can have her talk to her mom. Just don't say it's Taylor. That's it. That's all you had to do.
02:27:03
Speaker
you know what You know what I could see actually is ah as an edit to this, right? What if but if she has a lot of this conversation with that old lady, right? Because a lot of what the old lady is saying is like, I'm trying to reconcile my past. I'm trying to make up for my past mistakes before it's too late. And I want to try to do the best I can with the time I have left. And Taylor then expressing, you know, kind of saying, I'm sorry to burden you with this. You're a stranger, but here's what I'm thinking about. And then instead of her meeting with her mom, she sees her mom.
02:27:33
Speaker
has a moment and then kind of walks away and says what she says to Danny of like, you ready to go? And he's, she's like, yeah, it wasn't her. Um, yeah kind of like moving on, like, it's like her form of saying, I've seen her, it's not really her though. Time for me to move on. And so we, we can maybe put the pieces together to see it's Taylor. Um, right right but not, not so explicitly again, I said at less is more thing, right? If not explicitly spelling out who this person is. Give the fans an option to interpret them a chance to hope, you know? Yeah. Also potentially the old lady could have been the mom because the characters true to parallels do not eight are not necessarily the same they're not necessarily a same age. Noel, the daughter of the Noel monster is what? Like she's like at least 16, if not 18 by the time. Yeah. She was younger.
02:28:27
Speaker
No, maybe it's like 17. I think she's 17 when she dies, ultimately. um But the guy who has the daughter that's also Noel Renard or whatever, um ah she she's like a young kid. She's like a six year old or something. Yeah, that's what I was saying. I thought that she was younger than the Noel that we know. Yes. yeah so So we know that they're not perfectly the same for obvious reasons. um So in this case, like why wouldn't you know, potentially his mom, be this older character or just have it be the mom on the train. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of simplify things a little bit.
02:29:06
Speaker
But that's something for Jacob and I to talk about later. There you go. True. Well, otherwise, sons of bitch. That's a pretty cool. Sons of bitch. It's pretty good. I like that. The needle points. The needle points. I love the needle points. Until a better ones come up with. I do love the tattle sales, like, what do you name in cruise now? And it's just like, well, I don't want them to end up with a lame ass name like fault lines crew.
02:29:34
Speaker
yeah I loved that. That was great. That was excellent. Could have a dumb ass name like tattletales team. Oh gosh. you can tell tell be that firm She did the TTT. The TTT. Tattletales. Oh, I guess I was thinking tattletales team. The They're the titties.
02:29:59
Speaker
Oh, those are nice. yeah oh yes As we said, we are really tired. Perfectly around. Speaking of coming around, Tattletail full on did lie about Gru. His ass got blew up on the way. He did die. Oh, I cried. I cried there too. The final, because I was, I i think I was. yeah Speaking of hoping holding that he gone. Yes. Gruent. Yeah. It was interesting to see Cozen again.
Emotional Reactions and Commitment to Continuity
02:30:38
Speaker
I think that's what tipped me off of me because Cozen's there and I'm like, Oh, Cozen's alone. And I started crying. And as as I was reading, and then it's like the confirmation, I'm like that. I mean, I think we've talked about this. marriage I know know. I know. But so speaking of holding out hope until the end,
02:30:58
Speaker
Your girl Hannah wanted to believe, and she was ready for Taylor to die, but Gru could live on. It's fine. God. I do love, too, that in a way there's an implication of um maybe Imp kind of taking a bit of a Taylor role in Rachel's life, too. Because she gives this extended analogy about kicking teacher in the balls, and Rachel's like, yes, I understand. Yes, absolutely. Taylor's like, oh, God, please. That was great. so Uh, it's yeah, it's interesting. I'd like to think if anybody, any superhero team ever had to go against tattletale for some reason, the secret weapon would be imp not using her power, but literally just appearing in front of her and just start talking and like tattletales like doing the Akira. No, leave me alone. So I've been reading some, some vocab books. Oh God.
02:32:00
Speaker
Oh gosh. Wow. well And they planned to to beat up teacher though, which is good. It's like, Oh, we're going to kick in the balls down and out. The real ending we needed. Yeah. And, yes and you know what? Here's the, here's the reason why we needed this last happy interlude.
02:32:23
Speaker
It's so that Wild Bo could slip in one more copacetic right here at the end. Oh, my God. Let's go. Because things were not copacetic. Not copacetic.
02:32:36
Speaker
Do you do it on purpose? you purpose? It felt like it was on purpose because I was like, that's not where you would use that word. That feels a little pushed there. Yeah. I do have to real quick. This one conspiracy theorist Redditor on the parahuman subreddit 10 years ago.
02:32:58
Speaker
thinks that when Contessa shot Taylor, that, uh, glass dig when you stole her shard and the interlude is shard Taylor's like consciousness inside. Like, Oh, but I love that. We have to talk about something in this chapter about that. So glass dig when you
02:33:24
Speaker
Is when they're, when they're talking about like showing stuff off classic, when yay is observing a strapping young lad with red hair, get into a white superhero suit.
02:33:43
Speaker
What superhero do we know? What Cape do we know that has a red hair? and wears a white suit. I mean. I'm trying to think of the red hair. I know we talked about it. Clock blocker? Bingo. Clock blocker? Who do we know she has in her little dead posse? When does that happen? Clocky. Is that back in chapter one? Wait, what? No, this isn't this last one. Wait, what? I'm so confused.
02:34:17
Speaker
No. Yeah. yeah ah No. I mean, I'm not a hundred percent. I'm not saying no with a hundred percent, but I'm saying no with like a 95, 92 percent. Somebody control F. Yeah. red hair yeah Because Taylor, Taylor sees an Alec look alike. She does see an Alec look alike. That is not that this is ah not from her perspective.
02:34:45
Speaker
And this is in this chapter? This is from the Tattletail perspective? I believe this is from the Tattletail one. Is this when she's watching the screen and imp interrupts her? I believe so. Hold on.
02:35:01
Speaker
yep ah red hair yeah A red young man that was donning a white bodysuit. Read the couple lines before. Context is key. I went to Bible college. I know this shit. What does it say?
02:35:13
Speaker
No, read the couple lines before is what I'm telling you. Hold on. Hold up.
02:35:20
Speaker
Uh, hold on. I don't have it. Cause I was reading, uh, conspiracy theories as well. Hold on. It's 0.7. Nope. Yep. Oh, okay. So here we go. Um, cause that's his comment. We're not going to look at that. Ah,
02:35:41
Speaker
So the C in the comment section, wild bow, because you were invited to ask questions. I'll go ahead and ask instead of speculating, who was Valkyrie making eyes at wild bow replies, a red haired young man that was donning a white bodysuit. All the comments debt, probably clock blocker. ah So super cocky. Very interesting.
02:36:08
Speaker
absolutely And someone said, and the clock blocker Valkyrie ship has set sail.
02:36:20
Speaker
Interesting. A young man tried on a white body suit. Also plot relevant, extra information in a wild boat. Red hair wasn't mentioned in the interlude from what I saw. That is true. You're correct. Trying to look far less interested than she was.
02:36:39
Speaker
as a young man tried on a white body suit. And you're right. Uh, he then confirms it as a red haired, white white suit body suit. Interesting comments. Everybody assumes to the clock blocker. Interesting. And we were talking about trying to bring people back from the dead. That's truly where true that's true. Am I spanking a cat right now? Maybe. yeah That's okay. They like it. Interesting. I have not, I've not heard that theory. So.
02:37:08
Speaker
Well, looking at, uh, looking at the time. Yes. I think I believe the time has come to an end to an end. We still have more to talk about. We do boy. How do we going to wrap up dissecting worm?
02:37:25
Speaker
And then we have a, we have a, we have a total recap altogether, right? We have the full, like gosh we have so many things we've got patrons. ah Boy, how do we have a lot of extra? Oh my gosh. We'll actually be fulfilling our patron promises so much. Pics are coming. yeah They're just, look, all you gotta do is ask and subscribe to the slaughterhouse 9,000 tier.
02:37:53
Speaker
That's right. For nine bucks, YouTube can get my feet picked. Also, also just the thing, because I don't think we ever actually talk about it for our patrons. We do have a $1 tier. Uh, if, if you, you don't have a lot of money to spare, not even a cup of coffee, not even a fourth of a cup of a coffee.
02:38:12
Speaker
these days. In this economy, absolutely not. yeah But you want to just see our extra content. We're making it part of the Discord. There's extra episodes, there's tier lists. And if you want to support us more, we do have a full tier set. So there's a lot of there's a lot of options if you want to extra support us, or if you want to just be part of the group and not feel left out, we do have a $1.
02:38:39
Speaker
Yeah. Your option. We also have that one lucky slot for the gold morning investment. We do. We do. And that is yet to be filled. So you're leaving a thousand bucks a month. Help us pay Michael. but We are looking for our number, man, if you will. We are. It's true. Looking for our, uh, yeah. I was trying to think of somebody else who were rich. We're looking for our.
02:39:03
Speaker
a mysterious benefactor of a coil. yeah Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Exactly. You don't need two timelines to invest in the Patreon. And this is not the end of the Brock and Bay Book Club. Absolutely not.
02:39:18
Speaker
We'll be carrying on.
Looking Ahead and Listener Engagement
02:39:20
Speaker
Stay tuned. I'm not going to ah shoot ourselves in the foot by saying, you anno to yeah yeah, much like the epilogue. We will never die. Yeah. There you go. That's well done. As long as while keeps writing, we'll keep reading. We'll keep reading.
02:39:42
Speaker
We'll have our big thoughts on our whole conclusion of the story and also, of course, dissecting. For the last one, yeah season review of dissecting. There's at least four more episodes, three or four. At least. And then some patron content for those who join us. So yes stay tuned. Thanks for coming along this far. This has been so fun.
02:40:09
Speaker
It's been a journey. Rereading it has been a blast. Oh, it really has. Also, rereading it with you guys has been a hass been a true pleasure. Absolute joy. Highlight of my year. Farewell, 2024. This was the highlight of the year. So thanks again to all of you and to everyone listening. We've done enough wrap up here. So Michael,
02:40:37
Speaker
Would you be so kind as to play us out?
02:40:47
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening. Read along with us at parahumans dot.wordpress dot.com. We'd love to hear your thoughts. What did you love? What did you hate? Anything you think we missed, et cetera, as long as it's kind. If you'd like to get in touch, you can find