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Episode 39 - ADHD In The Workplace
80 Plays1 year ago
Paul and Martin (co-Mayors of ADHDville) answer a listener question: How does ADHD fit in the modern workforce? Adult ADHD and work doesn't always go together so well, and that's not suprising as the modern workplace is just not set up for Neurodivergent people.
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Put quill to paper and send us an email at: ADHDville@gmail.com
ADHD/Focus music from Martin (AKA Thinking Fish)
Theme music was written by Freddie Philips and played by Martin West. All other music by Martin West.
Please remember: This is an entertainment podcast about ADHD and does not substitute for individualized advice from qualified health professionals.
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Transcript
Introduction: Seasonal Fatigue and Personal Experiences
00:00:00
Speaker
but There we go. I'm just hitting the record button like like I don't care. Back in the throne. Back on the throne, on the mayor's throne. i am You look tired because I because i saw you stretch earlier. I am absolutely whacked out. I am tired. It's the change of the seasons. It affects, I don't know whether it's an age thing, but I see to affect me more and more. When there's a change of season, and it it it makes me kind of go a bit peaked on. Oh, I know it's going to rain when my elbow starts to twinge. Right. Oh boy. My arthritis plays up first week of April.
00:00:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I'm kind of feeling it. i was um this this This episode is probably going to go out in like, I don't know, May or something. But I spent the weekend. um ah Well, yeah, I drove eight hours up to see the total eclipse dry as yeah as as it went across the the states. um And I have to say, it was absolutely amazing. Was it? It was. It's if you ever get a chance to see a total eclipse, they're like there's like a million miles of difference between 99% of an eclipse and a total eclipse. It's like night night and day, literally. Quite literally.
00:01:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah yeah no I mean like the it's surprising like as yeah as I watch the moon go across the sun and block out. um more of the sun even when you get like the tiniest slither of sun left yeah you it's still okay and you and there's still a fair amount of light i mean it's it's like to it's like twilight you know yeah so it's like evening but then as soon as it just blocks out of the sun but it's like it's like reality changes and you're standing in a fucking
00:02:15
Speaker
a strange planet and looking up at the sky. It's it's just it's surprisingly shocking. I mean, as you see you see images of it right we don't with the kind of black moon and then the kind of like the sun with the corona around it. Yeah. But that that's like. It's like it's like going to an amazing concert and someone takes a good photo of it. Right. And goes, look, this is what it's like. You get one. No, because you can't. It's just one still image of an entire life thing. yeah And it it's shocking. It's like there's some okay part of your brain that kind of goes that the the that just goes weird. Oh, it was. great
00:03:06
Speaker
cool If you ever get a chance, yeah, so so i I drove eight hours there, and it was like eight hours back again. he That's a long way. um fucking Yeah, I drove up all through New York, up through Vermont, right up to New Hampshire. um Yeah, it was it was it was was an epic journey. It's epic. Epic experience, literally. But if it ever passes your way, do you know i never say one never do not Do not hesitate. It's like it's stunning. Anyway. OK. Enough of that. Let's just kind of say, welcome to ADHD, if I can find the intro button. Oh, there it is. Here we go. The intro music.
00:03:55
Speaker
You can just catch my breath a little.
00:04:08
Speaker
A, D, H, D, D. Oh, I love it. OK.
Purpose of the ADHD Podcast
00:04:16
Speaker
OK, hello, I'm Paul Thompson. I was diagnosed with combined ADHD some eight months ago. Wow. And i my name is Martin Weston. I was diagnosed with ADHD in 2013. So quite a while back. Quite a while back. So anyway, we're just two mates who, by coincidence or not, after 39 years of friendship, discovered that we're co-ADHDers. Now, it's really important to say that this is an entertainment podcast. It's something that's about that actually. but
00:04:50
Speaker
it though It really is ed to taste an entertainment podcast about adult ADHD. It's just not substitute, no, no, no, for individualized advice from qualified health professionals. So don tokeke so't don't toke, don't toke, don't toke, don't don't toke any advice from us. We're just here to call a whole inclusive ADHD part-bench with room for everyone, including your doppelgangers, your auto egos, your body doubles, your chaperones, and even your best buddies. Still here, great. They'd grab your jet packs, your padaloes, space hoppers, or any other transportation methods. And let us take you to ADHD, an imaginary town that we've created in our minds. In our minds. In our minds, we like to explore different parts of AD and the D. AD and the HD.
00:05:43
Speaker
yeah and never thought that i've got a day you never know it just you by that slick tro who And we start off as always here in the town hall in the mayor's office where we the joint-air mayors of ADHD take care of business. And i just like ah every time I do that intro segment, ah realize I realize I always have to i have to take a run up to it. I just can't just like do it. I have to take a run up to it and I don't go through it. And I have no poise at all. it's just I've never had poise. Have you ever had poise? Me. very
00:06:27
Speaker
Can I mask poise is the real question. Sometimes yes. But it takes a lot of effort. Yeah. It happens to me, I see someone who has poise. Oh, you bastard. I know. I'd like to have a bit of that. Give me some of that. Give me all of that. Give me all of it. The whole packet. Yeah. Okay. So on this week's agenda, a bit of a new one for us. We we have like a a listener question.
00:07:04
Speaker
um And i'm i'm ah I will find the ask of the question at some point and put his link in the in the show notes. so You can go and follow him. um For God's sake. But I was frantically looking for it earlier. I couldn't find it, which was annoying. But we will stick his name up in the show notes. And the question was...
Q&A: ADHD in the Modern Workplace
00:07:30
Speaker
What was the question? I guess he knows who he is. He knows who he is. You know who you are. You know who you are. Alright, come on. So the question was about ADHD in the modern workplace. He was interested in our thoughts.
00:07:48
Speaker
on ADHD in the modern workplace. So a good, good question. We've both, we are both people who have been in the modern workforce um but combined 70 years in a combined 70 freaking years. That's a lot of fun time. That's that. That is too much to we even think about. i So I think where are we going today? Julio to talk about it. I think we're going to the library, Martin. I think we were. Yeah, because the library, if you have them anywhere around you, are a good resource
00:08:36
Speaker
for jobs and job hunting. And they often have like, I know the ones around me have, ah ah they do these free online classes, or these ah Zoom calls with where that they'll teach you about how to find a job or keep a job or whatever. so yeah so there's lots of resources there so let's jump in the mayor's car which yeah i've got a load of crisp packets uh in this because i've got a bit hungry uh because it's empty or full um well because i used it to go up and see the the the eclipse so well i use so it's this it's just full of all my car snacks you know like when you go on a long journey get your
00:09:20
Speaker
get your bag of peanuts and trail mix. and ah you know mean know' i mean When you go on a long trip in the car, do you stock up on a load of snacks? I'm really bad at doing that, even though I really, when I have the stuff, I'm really, really pleased. I'm really, I often, very often forget to take water anywhere. h I forget water. I think it's an ADHD thing, actually, I've heard many people say it. I do like, do you remember those tins used to get in the 1970s and 80s, the tins of travel suites?
00:10:04
Speaker
yeah You can still get them, they're really nice. Bold sweets with some white whiteley powder on them. Powder, yeah. As opposed to yeah for for the humidity. That was the cocaine, just to keep you driving. right yeah Just to keep keep you moving along. That's right, so light off the dashboard as you're driving along. Yeah. No wonder I like those bald sweets, because on the face of it, they were shitty sweets, but somehow somehow they were appealing at the time. Yeah. yeah Somehow I developed a toxic dependency from them. Yeah. he i Weird. All right. well let's see By the way, by the way, just as you were talking about that, the on air sign behind you, OK, it was off.
00:10:57
Speaker
It was off, right? And then ah it was off. And then um and I was going to interrupt you, say, Marty, I feel a bit weird until and can you go switch on your on air lights or more like I could get into the podcast, be like, you know, and it then it came on by itself. Well, it knows it's like a little sentient being... It's like I willed it to come on. Mm-hmm. That's bizarre. Right, it could it could sense that we were actually podding, so we're to... Yeah, exactly. It went, oh shit, I should be on. Fuck.
00:11:36
Speaker
fuck just came on Exactly. Yeah. but Just in the nick of time. yeah Well, anyway, ah just just ah as as as a thing, if ever I go on a long journey, my first stop is usually to somewhere where I get loads of water, loads of drinks, loads of snacks, shower main, love it. Like that is my first stop on on any long trip. Anyway, let's jump in the car. If you can, uh, you know, uh, yeah, this is getting fucking out. What am I doing? My girlfriend's really good at that kind of thing.
00:12:16
Speaker
Yes. The library has its own music and this is it.
00:12:25
Speaker
Indeed. All right, so um right the the the topic ADHD in the modern workplace and and we did have a brief chat. And we do have two different points of view. Yeah, about about at least one of the things that that'll be in interesting. Well, big one. like big eye i guess so i I think actually it's probably worth giving a quick summary of our background of of next experience, of work. yeah so So people can know where we're coming from because obviously we haven't had every job in the sun ah so and not every in in environment, so we couldn't speak to it all. We can only speak from our points of view, yeah right?
00:13:18
Speaker
um Yeah, I can first. All right, I'll start off. So my work experience has generally been straight out of art college. And then I was doing graphic design work for little tiny studios for a while. um And then I kind of worked. Then I went into the agency side. did add agency stuff for many years, um worked in different countries, and then I went and did the corporate side. So on so I worked in the corporate sector for a whole bunch of years um doing code yeah it is a design. So that's me. That's what I did. Me, yeah, I got, I i got, I actually got offered a job like about four months before I left college, art college, and I did my final
00:14:13
Speaker
my final course kind of of exhibition, like literally on the hoof, because I was working at the time. And then I was there until, because then, blimey, there was like a lack of really bad economic downturn at the time. So I ended up being in that job for eight years. We worked together, me and Martin, we worked together. We worked in-house for, well, the world's largest ah construction materials companies. ah It's now called Lafarge. Right. Then I moved out of that went into like what a couple of small agencies um in London. um Then a big agency that's now become like biggest agency in London or one of the biggest agencies in annual reporting. Sticked that for a while, got bored with it. I generally have a four year cycle.
00:15:05
Speaker
um And yeah, and then I the kind of wish we'll kind of uncover a bit later. And then I've pretty, then I moved to Italy and I've been pretty much at a small, my own small agency for about four years. um But really preferred the freelance kind of scene, you know, just, to you know, not having to to like spend too much time doing bureaucracy. I just like, I'm a doer. I like doing, I like being a designer. but I'm not so good at telling other people how to do it or kind of get too frustrated. It's like, Oh, can we just do it?
00:15:46
Speaker
And then um and now i've firm I've become a teacher ah almost three months ago. I've become a teacher. First time I did the same job for 35 years and now became a teacher, which is a bit of a So that's it me. I forgot to add that I also had my own company for for a while and for about four years. So I guess about the same sort of time. but then ah And then I'm now freelance and myself. So, um so yeah.
Personal Reflections on ADHD and Career Success
00:16:23
Speaker
somewhat And I ah would say that, it well, i am I have a lot of ADHD and i I would consider myself, if you think about it, just in like the career sector to be successful.
00:16:41
Speaker
you know I've won a bunch of awards. I've gone around the world. I've helped on jobs. i've I've done some really good stuff. I've really enjoyed it. It's been up and down, but someone would look at me from the outside and go, yeah, he was a successful person. So having ADHD does not necessarily stop you from having a decent career, um if you can work around you your shortcomings. Yeah, exactly. ah would ah been I was only diagnosed eight months ago, I would love to have every loved if I was diagnosed, you know, 30 years ago, I wonder how different it would be.
00:17:26
Speaker
ah I think I could be more successful than I was if I'm honest. all right but yeah no yeah yeah because i know I know people who are extremely talented but yet they've kind of that you know like they' never kind of gone anywhere and and I think that's probably because they were they ah trying to deal with the job the job thing Yeah. And they weren't dealing with themselves. Right. So totally. So ah if you deal with yourself and and you know what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are, um you know, and what things work for you and what things don't work for you. Yeah. If you sort that out, that's the kind of priority. the big Because that then in in informs what kind of job you do or how you do a job or what ah what accommodations you need, what help you need.
00:18:26
Speaker
But yeah, I always struggled throughout my career with kind of internal politics and just like, um you know, as you do with any in any job or any company of any size, you know, you get all kind of kinds of different people that, are you know, coming in in and out, you know, as over time in that in that place. And I just really, really struggled very, very often with just just dealing with things that I thought were, you know, in my mind, in my A.D.'s team mind, stuff that was either unnecessary, unwanted, inappropriate, or sometimes just downright crap. And I just couldn't deal with it. And generally, I would ah get really frustrated and take it very personally, generally, and and implode and burn some bridges on the way out.
00:19:18
Speaker
It's pretty much it. But history down. Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So, yeah, I think that, you know, like, yes, there's a lot of struggles, but it's also important to remember if you've got ADHD is that is that people with ADHD you know, have this kind of unique, they have a lot of unique ah ah abilities,
00:19:49
Speaker
you know, you know, whether it's like, whether it's like creativity or diversity of thought or good in a crisis, um you know, that not and not everyone has. So there's, there's, there's definite advantages. But as you say, there are also a whole bunch of disadvantages that really can trip you up. ah massively I mean, already difficult enough dealing other with our own crap, you know, with our own minds, so masking, you know, it's like, there's a lot of maskings going on because it's got, you know, yeah ah well, because there is, you know, because that's just generally how it happens.
00:20:36
Speaker
um know But then if you have to deal with other people's stuff as well, oh God, I yeah lacked i really lacked empathy skills at work massively. I do things so personally, everything, hypersensitive to everything. um and And mix that up with, you know, just someone who with ADHD, you know, who just needed to be stimulated all the time. And that's where my four year cycle kind of like, it's all wrapped up into that. I've got just got bored and yeah needed to move on.
00:21:16
Speaker
yeah that that ADHD ah need for novelty tends to like oh god yeah tends to kind of take over at some point because for sure i remember in the in an reported world that i used to do i was working stupid hours i remember once i got a cab home from the middle of central london got a cab home at two o'clock in the morning and i thought oh getting home early this morning
00:21:46
Speaker
Literally, that like that's thing of going home and you you meet people going to work coming the other other way. Yeah. yeah and then But then I would get up. um My train was at 7.12 in the morning, every morning. I'd be on that train at 7.12. Yeah. And sometimes I'd see you on the same platform, yeah have a little chat. how would That That would happen. I would say is that is that is that is that if you have ADHD or your LDHD, the world is not set up for you, basically. The whole workplace thing, everything is not set up.
00:22:33
Speaker
yeah to work with the ADHD brain, unfortunately. I would say i would i would say you know you know just like the advice I would give to anyone with ADHD in the workplace is acceptance is sometimes a useful thing to have. It's like, yeah, you will be misunderstood. You will be. you know um It's cool for us its it often difficult for us to understand ourselves. Can you imagine and other people trying to understand how our our minds work differently? Some people are even, how could I put it, um not scared as much.
00:23:13
Speaker
but um um you know, kind of challenged by, you know, brains like ours that just seem to be, you know, like, um, also personal as well. I've had this as well, being scared a bit, you know, about someone like me being like high for hypersensitive and can like, oh you know, you can I can really i could really so read people really well just because I'm hypervigilant and over the years that hypervigilance has made me you know quite skilled in in kind of reading people and situations.
00:23:52
Speaker
Right. And you get some people that could be really challenged by that. They pick it up and find it a bit. What's the word? Yeah, but they're challenged by it. Yeah. All right. I do have a ah quick list, which I could just zip down of if you have ADHD, it these things you might find difficult in the workplace.
Challenges of ADHD in the Workplace
00:24:19
Speaker
okay So so um I'm going to zip down them so and then you know we we can jump back on any of them. So you might find it hard to to manage time, get and stay organized, listen and pay attention, follow directions, complete assignments, pay attention to the details, get to work on time, ah speak just when when it's your turn.
00:24:47
Speaker
ah Sit still, keep emotions under control. You may also have trouble with anger and procrastination. but christian nation um you know um you know on On that thing, you know ADHD can also look look different for men and and we and we're women. you know Symptoms in men are often more external, such as aggressive behavior, interrupting others, or angry outbursts. However, women's symptoms may be more internal. They may feel unmotivated or easily overwhelmed.
00:25:21
Speaker
That's what I say. I'm not sure that's true. um Have a hard time sleeping or have low self esteem according to some research. So, you know, there's a lot of stuff there that um yeah ah that we can have had problems with because you were saying, you know, like out of that that list, um you know, kind of a
00:25:49
Speaker
Well, like started with low self-esteem. I think Blimey is not like human condition is based on low self-esteem, isn't it? Seems that way. Yeah. I think everything comes back to low self-esteem. Pretty much everything could go back to that. I mean, things like managing time for me, um, is one. So, um, I can't imagine how many times I've almost missed a meetings or I have completely missed a meetings or I've been late to a meeting because I've been squirreling down on a piece of work that I'm totally absorbed by and I'm just like hyper focused on something and then time doesn't exist. So my whole time, time blindness kind of goes. And then if I don't set an alarm,
00:26:43
Speaker
for something to interrupt me, yeah then I'm in the danger of of of of missing shit. So this this is where this is where it's so interesting with ADHD is everyone is so different. Because when I got my diagnosis but eight or nine months ago, i one of one of those that was one of the things that came come up as like a typical ADHD trait, right bad time management. but I've always been really good with time management. Just for but different reasons, probably so pretty a masking technique. No, warm it like what it is, in some ways it's it's um it's the the the same thing. So um you can, for me, so as I say, so um
00:27:35
Speaker
i I just about managed to keep time, right? But for some people like you, at some point you will kind of go, oh crap, I really need to work out my time thing, right? And and and you'll hyper focus on that. like it It'll be like a big red flag. When when a um time comes up, you'll be like, yeah okay, I've got to work this out, I've got to put this down. and but And it's still a cost, right? so So the cost for me is I panic and I'm late or I could be late, right? and So there's that anxiety. where Whereas you, your cost is the and anxiety of is the same anxiety. It's the anxiety of ah missing ah a
00:28:19
Speaker
meeting so you you'll be so anxious about missing it that you'll be you'll be like you'll be like front of mind i have to be there at 4 pm and you'll and yeah that's yeah well i i think i always thought i always grew up you know knowing subconsciously clearly subconsciously at that point Growing up thinking like I had to try harder than everyone else because I was different I always knew that so I always thought they work. I always had to try harder than everyone else So for me, you know um I was just really hyper focused on on doing working
00:28:58
Speaker
really hard and being really punctual and just being professional and everything. I think it's i mean, I was driven by fear for both the most of the time, really it was. The fear of failure was was what drove me. yeah and But then guess what happens? i The batches ran out. right about 10 years 12 years ago i was like total and utter exhaustion breakdown wheels fell off and etc etc and i could see it now i'm looking back i could see it i was running out of steam because you can't really can't go on like that for
00:29:40
Speaker
I don't know what some people do maybe, but I couldn't. No, I don't think anyone can. I think one of the big differences with me is that I do the same thing in that certainly if I put in a lot of effort onto a project, And if the projects keep keep coming up, i like ah and I'm just having a lot of fun, and I'm just like putting a lot of energy into something, and I'm burning the the the the like the candle, at some point, I will go, oh, no, no, no, I i i need to rest, right? So i at some point, I filtered out what I really needed to pay attention to and what I could let slide.
00:30:28
Speaker
but so okay So apart from, so part of the ADHD thing can be perfect perfectionism, right? Is that you want everything to be exactly right. yeah and And you put a lot of effort into like making sure that it's cool. which is exactly why I had problems with internal politics because people got in the way with like dumb stuff. It was okay if it was like if fit if I thought that you know if i my for ah any project had a certain you know potential.
00:31:01
Speaker
okay um And people got in the way of that. It would drive me insane. It would really drive me insane, you know, with like dumb politics or people sometimes, you know, narcissistic behaviors in the workplace. I just supposed to just implode on that. Yeah. Yeah. So at some point i I let go of that perfectionism and I'll let stuff slide. Like if, it if it wasn't very important, I just let it go. So I let a lot of stuff go. And then that saved me from that burnout because, because I was only concentrating on the, on the really important stuff. And I'll let a lot of other stuff kind of go. Um, and that's how I'm, how, and even if things go, I can never do that. I couldn't ever let go.
00:31:54
Speaker
Right, and I think that's that is us that saved saved me from from all all of that burnout and yay and crash in in yeah in the end, just like, you know what, it's not worth it, but whatever. yeah But then see that's that's what happens's happened to me recently. I'm kind of in the middle of changing jobs because it's go load it's not like I've given up one and started another. I'm still doing both. um But I started to give up. I started to realise that certain things didn't matter, right? But then I wasn't getting the the yeah the yeah stimulus from that.
00:32:38
Speaker
You know, my stimulus was the fear factor. And when I realized there was nothing to be scared of, I lost my motivation. All right. You know, it's all screwed up. But then also then, to be honest, also the kind of the interesting projects for me to kind of dried up quite a lot. This is what happened. And I felt like I was always like using 20% maximum of my potential. And that was frustrating for me, you know, all working on stuff that was just like, you know, really kind of ordinary, shall we say.
00:33:15
Speaker
Yeah, no, i i i I found at some point that what I really liked about anything, anything that I did was that there was some puzzle to it. There was a problem that needed a kind of an elegant hello solution to it, right? Yeah. so And that wouldn't matter whether I was doing a small project or a or a ginormous global project. it was It was the same thing. It was just a difference in scale. So I just went, all right, okay, well, I'm just doing this little boring job, but there was always some little
00:33:56
Speaker
problem that I enjoyed kind of just yeah giving a nice solution. And that's what I enjoyed doing. Once I realized, oh, that's what I enjoy doing is just finding that little cute thing. that kind of makes something good. yeah Yeah, for me that that often depended on the type of client i had you know if they if i I had. Once I had worked with a great client, a really small company in the north and northeast of Italy, just a family-run business, ah coach building. So I don't know what that is in in America because coach building work in America. So the car repair, ah car repair is family run Mercedes Benz kind of coach repair and kind of business. okay And he trusted me totally. And I worked with him for two years and we just did the most amazing work.
00:34:51
Speaker
you know, probably more than any enough since work with ah other companies like Porsche and those kind of companies didn't find them anywhere near as stimulating. No, they it is in interesting. So I think one thing that I did find, you know, and this is you can work for one company and things can kind of go okay. And you kind of get into the groove of that company and the language and the and the culture and the way things work or or the client or whatever it is. And then you switch to something else, like a new culture, a new job, a new thing. And then it's like that transition transition, because ADHD is not really great at transition, that trend transition is like, is hell. oh god um yeah So what would happen is,
00:35:44
Speaker
um I would say, okay, I've got this new job and ah my wife would go, right, well, how are you going to handle that trend transition? I'd be like, oh, okay, I don't know. um I would have to kind of like... for having to that because because Because she would remind me that but I would go into this new job and I would like put 150% into it, right? so that I could prove myself, if you like, of worthy of getting that job. yeah um I would have to prove to everyone that I could do do that that that that job. um And I would have to kind of like... work to understand the new job and the new client and the new culture and the new workplace. And I would throw everything at it. and my And everything else in my life would just go by full by the wayside. right it would just be It just wouldn't exist. I would just hyper focus on this job and until I felt comfortable and I could relax a bit. yeah
00:36:54
Speaker
which is what I'm doing now with the teaching. I'm getting better, but all of a sudden I went from a change to to change i've changed you know went from you know marketing and communication into teaching. And from one day to the next, 300 students, you know a lot of different teachers, soon I'll have parent meetings to do and stuff like that. what two yeah Two different schools as well. So do two different systems, online systems for you know paperwork and documentation and stuff.
00:37:33
Speaker
um And i realize I've realised this week, I i have like facial blindness at the moment because it's a total visual overload of blindness. And I've realised because i've it's got to a point where I have to give grades to the students. Right. fuck ah So I've had to work it out. I've started to have to be really methodical with it. So, um, so rather than when I'm in front of my students and I call them up and they do a presentation for me based on um yeah some a theme that I've given them, I call them up and I get them to tell me their names and they come on and they get to the front and I say, hello, Martin.
00:38:15
Speaker
And so I've had to be really methodical with them. And and they love it because they say, Oh, hello, Mr. Thompson, Professor Thompson. And so Marty, so what are you going to present to the class today? And I have to do that. And I could actually, but surely, build up this visual memory of who the hell these people are. right you know And you're and your but bit busily writing down on a piece of paper. right yeah we thisally this this This guy, okay, all right. Write down the name. He was okay. and I'll give if you a 10, Martin.
00:38:53
Speaker
Oh, great. That's a lot of work into that into that presentation. i So it's a total blindness. And I i had a teacher came up to me yesterday and it's like really for like she the way she approached me, she was really, really familiar with me. I was thinking, who the fuck are you? Oh, no. Oh, no. Yeah. That happens to me a lot. ah you have to because i've got go on Because I've got really recognisable glasses. yeah So okay it happens a lot. people and I make fun of people and I say, oh, it's not me you recognise, it's my glasses. and Which is true, because they kind of like stand out because they're quite big frames. And people find me quite easy to recognise, also because I'm the only English guy in the whole school.
00:39:45
Speaker
OK, so yeah how um how I'm thinking about it is, is you go in, right, and you go, OK, right, I've got to teach this bunch of people this sort of stuff, right? And you go, OK, well, I can do that and do that. And then there's there's a point where you go, oh, wait, I have to know who these people are individually. I have to grade them. What? Oh, crap. This is a whole new level and not really got my head around. It's hard. It's hard. But so this is where come this is where the ah the subject, we we said at the top of this podcast, yeah um that we have a difference of opinion.
Disclosing ADHD at Work: Pros and Cons
00:40:23
Speaker
I've started telling one everyone at work that I have ADHD. Right. So this so the so the the question is is, should you tell yes your employer or not whether you have ADHD, which obviously is always going to be a personal
00:40:44
Speaker
uh as a personal choice for you choice at the end end end of the day but but we both have differing um thoughts on on that so uh i think you're gonna argue for camp you you should tell your um in your employer and i'm gonna argue ah reasons why why you should so so yeah to take it away ah I I was, I didn't say anything anything, especially with my new job. I didn't say anything for a while because I was like, I wanted to gauge it, you know.
00:41:20
Speaker
um develop relationships with both the students and the teachers. Engage how receptive they were or weren't going to be to that. um but And also, engaging in my mind, having conversations in my mind, how that conversation might go. um And in the end, ah it's been a really positive experience. I've told people and they've been amazing about it. um It's a bit difficult because it's a school environment, so it's a learning environment. So ADHD, actually in Italy, ADHD is not very well known at all, not even for students.
00:41:58
Speaker
ah which is come could for me be another opportunity for me, which I'm quite into. And I've offered them that I could become a government ambassador for them, for um you know maybe they'll sponsor me to get trained as an ADHD coach for in-school environments, um helping kids and they're you know talking to their parents about it, et cetera, et cetera. But other than that, the teachers have been amazing. They've been saying, oh, is there anything I can do to help you with that? you know, what, what can I do to any adjustments that I need to make for you that would help you? Of course, I've said no, there's nothing to do. Don't worry about it. Actually, there is a lot. There's a lot you can say and ask for.
00:42:44
Speaker
Right, yeah, because there are accommodations that you can get. Yeah, well, also they legally supposed to because it is officially, ah well at least in America, Canada and UK, it's officially a disabled it's a disability, so they're expected to make reasonable adjustments for for us. Right. But, you know, for me, it's been really positive, I have to say, and I kind of like other than the legal part, because who cares? Frankly, I don't care. I'm too old to care about regulations and law and stuff like that. I like being an example of ah but um perceptions about what autism cannot what it looks like or doesn't look like. Mm hmm.
00:43:34
Speaker
yeah but kind of like that taking that on I like it yeah yeah I can see that so what I'm gonna bounce the ball back over to your side of the army all right yeah well I mean yeah what I would say in an ideal world It would be more your side where you would go in and you would say, I have ADHD. And then people would kind of like, you know, uh, would adjust accordingly and take a ah advantage of the, um, you know, of the, of the, of the gifts and yeah. And we'll, and we'll make some, uh, uh, combinations to, uh, work out, you know, uh, to help with the things that you do st, do struggle with. Um,
00:44:22
Speaker
My point of view is generally that it's mostly not going to be helpful and I know that most councillors would warn against telling um people so And the reason for that is is you can go you can go for the accommodation without necessarily saying that you have ADHD, right? So you could say, look,
00:44:57
Speaker
Um, I would find it, you know, so you could say to your boss, say, you know, if you were in an office environment, uh, you know, can I wear headphones because I concentrate so much better with headphones and, and, and, and I can do a much better job if, if, if I can put headphones on without saying, I have ADHD therefore, uh, you know, can I have headphones because, because I work better. It's like that, that ADHD part. may not necessarily help you. The headphones are going to help you. yeah so the the So you can go for the accommodations and try and kind of get your work environment to work for you without necessarily yeah saying you have ADHD. Because if you do,
00:45:42
Speaker
say you have ADHD, then you're, you're stuck with it, right? It's like everyone knows you have a ADHD, which in an ideal world would actually work for you or or wouldn't be a a problem. But say if you're a woman, you know, because it's a stupid dumb ass male centric workforce. If you're a woman, it's already slightly stacked against you without having ADHD piled on top of that. If you're a person of color, the workforce is is against you without adding ADHD on top of that.
00:46:23
Speaker
Yeah, um yeah, it's true. this I mean, let's let's face it, you know, feet on the ground, prejudice, prejudice is is everywhere. Okay, and people and there can be work environments can be extremely harsh environments. um but Sometimes real battlegrounds, you know, Yeah. Um, I often said it's one thing I really expression. I really had a light that I had once is that, um, you know, we're, you know, we're two white male people, you know, generally people that, you know, if you're a woman or if you're from and an ethical backgrounds, you, uh, to get anywhere to be successful, you can't just be good at something. You have to, you have to be exceptional at your job.
00:47:10
Speaker
Whereas white men could just be good at their jobs and be successful anyway. You know, just generally women have to be and people in ethnic of i ethnic ah groups have to be exceptional to get anywhere.
00:47:26
Speaker
right and which i can i can see If you say that yeah And if you say you have ADHD, then that, for me, can just put a target on your back. And yeah yeah you you may not necessarily need that. What I what i would say about eight child dip but did HR the departments, you know human resources, um is people think that they work for you. So HR will i generally kind of go,
00:47:59
Speaker
Yeah, you know ADHD d people. um Yeah, you know they are really good and helpful to a company in, you know, and in certain ways, right. So if you have a particularly good um per progressive HR and support, then then they can be helpful. But the problem is, is that HR doesn't work for you or advocate for you. It works for the company and advocates for the health of the company, not for you.
00:48:32
Speaker
yeah So in any example of that it it would be um I tell my boss I have ADHD and then I'm struggling with a project say and I'm kind of late and I'm not hitting my my my my deadlines. um then ah that boss could go to the HR department and go, look, I have a problem with this person because they have ADHD and they're missing all the deadlines and the HR might go, well, ADHD can be really helpful if you put in some more work and we reach do some accommodations. and But at the end of the day, if that if my boss says, no, I want to manage this person out,
00:49:13
Speaker
you'll get managed out. It's pure and simple. Yeah, but but in my case, you know, in it was a few years ago now, but in my case, I would i'd be managed out anyway because I was unmanageable in any way. but Right. ah was called a I was called loose cannon. in oneency So, you know, I can, you know, lose my shit anyway. And I probably
00:49:49
Speaker
yeah I mean, the first thing, the first obviously the first point is to is to take care of yourself. That's the first point. um Get help where you can, um educate yourself, um build up your skills, recognize patterns, you know, work on yourself. That's the first point, you know, Yeah, as as as well as using tech to support you. So, you know, whether that's apps or alarms or... ah Headphones, as you said. Headphones or, you know, like, yeah. So, I mean, there there are things... Especially noise cancelling headphones. They're just the best thing.
00:50:38
Speaker
Yeah, you know what, um ah before I kind of get off of this tu subject totally, um
00:50:48
Speaker
you know, like we'll say, oh, you know, who had ADHD? Oh, well, you know, Richard Branson had ADHD or something, right. And it always reminds me that when you hear successful people they will go, oh, yeah, I had ADHD or I suffered this problem or that problem. But they only say it after they've been successful. Right. It's always it's it's always, look, I'm now successful. I can now I'm now allowed the opportunity to go. Oh, yeah. Well, actually, you know, for most of my career, I had at a deal or I was all autistic and
00:51:32
Speaker
and you know so But they would never have said it. They would never have said what they say after they're successful. They would never say it before they were sick successful. yeah yeah It's always after, every time. yeah and always So it's kind of like... So it's better to be authentic. That's what you're saying. You're coming round to my idea that you should just be open with it. Oh, no, no, no. I totally i i totally agree that authenticity is like is where you should go. But right but i it I feel like pitfalls yeah the world
00:52:11
Speaker
isn't in the same frame of mind that UI doesn't work in UI. You have to like work, but you know, yeah yeah it it is a compromise and fun. the world Singing from the same song sheet. No, and which is which is why I think, you know, there are there are so many people like, you know, like you or me will kind of end up starting their own companies, right, being little entrepreneurs. And it's not because they had a great idea.
00:52:46
Speaker
It's just that the modern workplace doesn't work for them. Right. It's necessity. yeah ah Yeah. Yeah. I had to be freelance. I had to work freelance because, um, I just, I, I like a really sensitive to, um, outside impact on my world. So if I was a freelancer, I could manage that impact. you know If it was going to things if things go go bad or good or bad or anywhere between, I wanted it to have as much control over that as possible. um Yeah, I'm kind of hypervigilant. So freelancing works for me. Same way it works for Richard Branson to be an entrepreneur. There are a lot of ADHDs that are entrepreneurial.
00:53:34
Speaker
Right. And it's a control thing, isn't it? Right. Well, yes, I would say, I mean, I am a freelancer now, but when I had my own company, so that was like when I was in my 40s, maybe. um My mistake was, well, because of that I didn't know I had ah ADHD at the time, but what I would have done looking back is to have partnered with a neurotypical person.
00:54:06
Speaker
And that neurotypical person would have taken care of like the boring crap, right? The yeah d yeah paperwork, the bureaucracy, the although all the kind of boring stuff. And then it just allowed me to do all the fun, creative stuff. And if I'd done that, if I'd found a neurotypical person, um that that would have made that company really good. um yeah But as it was, that's that's where I failed, was the taxes and the bank bills. and
00:54:41
Speaker
yeah I've had that thought even way before I had i discovered I had ADHD, I always you know wished I'd happened upon someone of that there those kind of skills that I could have built something from. And I could have been much more could have been um could have been a contender, as they say. could be Right. I did but ah do want to say that when I look at people and their jobs, there do seem to be like a lot of people who Do a job for a while.
Managing ADHD: Avoiding Burnout through Self-awareness
00:55:16
Speaker
And then they struggle to, you know, they, they'll put a lot of energy into it at the beginning and then, you know, they'll kind of, that energy will taper off because it's fucking tiring. yeah And then, and then they'll start to struggle and then they'll hate it. And then they'll either get fired or, or they'll just quit. They'll just yeah rage quit. And then just kind of go, you know what? I can't be done with this and they'll yeah yeah find something else. And then this is kind of like cycle of like. getting a job hmm tick leaving that box next job leaving it yeah tick in those boxes so
00:55:55
Speaker
Right, and then I guess one solution is is to is is to is to find out how you can work for for yourself. Yeah, but I mean, I wish i wish if I could turn back time, ti if i could i find a way I could back to you. I would say to myself, it's like, okay, even if in my case, my cycles were a mixture of getting bored with the job, et cetera, et cetera. But there are a lot of times I would like to go turn back time and say, Paul, whatever stresses that are going on, you know, extra stresses that are going on, have ah sometimes they've got nothing to do with you, Paul.
00:56:45
Speaker
There's like, just ignore it all. Just like be elegant with it, yeah have some poise, go back to your desk, just do your job, do it well and let other people worry about all that crap. And no, I didn't do that. I just took it all on um and I just made it very, very personal and I just, yeah, just got really messy. I wish I ah wish I could have done that and just like, just being a bit more, you know, coming from a caring place is ever go back to that thing. Paul, you can't, this is not your battle. You know, just like, don't take it on.
00:57:27
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Because the agency where I worked, where I've worked often, they created a lot of shit, you know, unnecessary crap. It caused problems, it caused anxieties, they caused unnecessary conflicts and unnecessary levels of competition, internal competition to, you know, to kind of get the numbers up and everything like that. um And that was, that's just, that was all they're doing. They had nothing to do with me. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a whole bunch of stuff that is nothing to do with you. And then there's a whole bunch of stuff that is. That is. so
00:58:04
Speaker
That kind of is that you have to kind of like work out for a solution for. Right. So it's so for you, part of it was like, um you know, you put in a lot of effort and you care about everything and you put all this energy in and with all this anxiety and then it would just burn you the fuck out. And then you'd just be like a loose cannon. Right. You just say, I'm just going to fuck you fuck um
00:58:37
Speaker
Right. type So exactly it's like finding ways to kind of like help that. So whether that would be yeah for me, a little bit like like like you is like I found stuff that that wasn't worth all that effort for and I just kind of ignored it. um Yeah. And that say saved me. in that's That's how I got around it all. I realized I now go in and go, what's really important here? Oh, it's this and this and this. And then yeah everything else can can basically go in go and and and I don't care. So something might come up and I'll go, is this one of the important things? No, no, he's it's not one of the important things. i So I kind of go, okay, I'm just getting, ignore that and and and let it yeah let let that problem be somewhere else.
00:59:36
Speaker
um Because otherwise you just... but Which is exactly what i I learned to do in my, especially more more in my private life. but If I went down a rabbit hole and I was massively overthinking ah about things and not just massively overthinking things, massively overthinking on multiple things all at the same time. And then I got started to realise, I started to filter in my mind and think, okay, is that useful? Is it useful to be thinking about this obsessing over it in this exact moment when you can't do anything about it? No. Okay. So let's put it to one side and leave it there sometimes, you know, and filter. And I got better at filtering, you know, but really what you were saying, Martin, is like, okay, is this valuable? Is there a point? Is there, you know, should I get better at choosing my battles? You know, what are the battles worth fighting for?
01:00:34
Speaker
yeah yeah yeah yeah Okay. um um So yeah do you have a, is there anything else before we was summarize? Because I'm, you know, I think I've kind of got most of my shit out. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I think let's start summarizing. So yeah, I think probably you could like, as ever, with our Yeah. with our podcast it often comes back to taking care of yourself you know know thyself know thyself exactly know thyselves and which is if if if everyone is if everyone
01:01:22
Speaker
If anyone has listened to the hour, like the end of our podcast, I say I'll go to this thing about knowing thyselves. It's actually a battle cry from my my Scottish kin. My clan is something that every family, apparently every clan Scottish clan had their own battle cry. And my family's battle was like, no way. ah was but why was know thyselves here we go what reverse psychology you see run away then run away know thyselves by the way the pups are open
01:02:08
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, okay. Fair enough. Yeah. So so so so definitely knowing yourself is is is is a key to actually to actually managing your your workplace environment. ah ah get support would be another one, right? So whether that's your company might might give you accommodations. and Also, you know, there's good at recognizing patterns as well as wish I wish I'd done that.
01:02:43
Speaker
get good at recognizing patterns and and then you could you know see it off before it gets to a difficult situation. Recognize it, see it off, develop um coping mechanisms for dealing with it better. um yep um Getting support could be going to ah a therapist or a coach, ah ADHD coach. um I think that the guy who asked who asked the question was a coach. so So yeah, he'll be in our show notes.
01:03:16
Speaker
um
01:03:20
Speaker
Auto tech, you know, support also helps like gadgets and and anything that like, I mean, I think I've i've i've shown this to the to the camera budget time, but my countdown clock. Yeah. This is like I use that all the time, all the time. um But um I guess the other thing I would say, even if there are laws and regulations in place, and certainly in the States, in the UK, Canada, etc.
01:03:54
Speaker
There are regulations in place for disabilities and ADHD is officially a disability in those countries. It doesn't necessarily mean anything at all. There's a lot of companies out there that to use these things as box ticking exercises. And I've seen disabled people that have been treated exceptionally badly in companies and treated like crap but and just like forgotten and put in a corner just so they can get the have the numbers. Yeah. What I would say is that if you know yourself,
01:04:30
Speaker
you'll know what kinds of jobs actually suit you. So i know so so we both vert work in the in the advertising and design. Well, my God, they're like, everyone's bloody ADHD. So you see you don't you don't even have to say you have ADHD because yeah because because everyone's like you. I know that. Exactly. It's like going to the zoo and you're all in this in the the primate section. Mm hmm. Yeah. Munching around. Munching around. There's ah jobs like I know the the emergency medical service and EMS workers. There is a lot of ADHD people right key yeah working there in those kind of like dopamine, high street. and You're right. You're right. All those jobs that have these kind of that are quite
01:05:22
Speaker
ah Yeah, where there's lot of lot of drama a lot of drama. yeah Also, ah IT t has a has a lot of people working in there. So there's definitely industries. People like Microsoft and Google, they have amazing, amazing, amazing approaches. ah like their own culture, dealing with this kind of thing, and where um autistic people are really valued as an intrinsic part of their overall value brand value. um And they're not just saying it either. I mean, that you can find stuff on YouTube, examples of they're really groundbreaking in terms of how they deal with these people. They actually need them. It's not just like, oh, we make
01:06:11
Speaker
you know, ah we accommodate these people. These companies actually need them and they recognize their need right and value their need. Right. Yeah. So there are are companies out out out there that are doing a good job, but for 99.9999% of the rest of us who who don't work at Google and won't ever get a job at Google, yeah and you know We have to ah have to like yeah work on work on hour but but you know where where we struggle and to try and try and find and and and an environment which actually works for us and that may well be you know working for our ourselves, yeah it's which is what we do.
01:06:55
Speaker
Currently. Yeah. Okay. All right. All right. All right. Well, I think that just about wraps that up. um We can jump back in the mayor's car. We can go to the post office. If we're feeling like that's what we want to do. I don't think we got any posts, Martin. I do. do Oh, if we know okay, good man. i've I've got one. I like the cut of your jib. I know. Let's jump in the car.
01:07:32
Speaker
There we go. Just a quick jump to the poster post office. um Not much of a line, thankfully. um so we so we did So we did have a ah a message on the tick TikToks from my ADHD journey. um You know who you are. You listen to our yeah podcast. He says, uh, listening to your podcast, I can hear what a journey it's been for you. I alternate between seeing the positives and opportunities to focusing on the then negatives. Um, so he listens to our but podcast. He likes it. And he's just started for the first time. He's a a very late diagnosed like us.
01:08:17
Speaker
diagnosed ADHD. And he literally today, as of today, just started taking his meds for the first time. And it was really a real tearjerker. It was a lovely, lovely TikTok that he's put up out on there. um Just he said, he just like you put on a TikTok, you know, ah what he felt like in the first two or three hours. And at some point he said, oh my God, I feel peace in my mind for the first time ever. And it was it was really touching, it was really cool.
01:08:52
Speaker
That's nice. We like that for him. We were. like we we were i so I spotted him when he first came on tick TikTok. I was like one of the very first people to to chat with him. And I think we were the first people he followed. We were his first follow. Oh, that's cool. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I saw a kindred spirit man in a van. I'll wear that medal. That's no problem at all. Very proudly. All right, as we walk back, let me just ah say... um Where are we? Where are we? Yeah, there we go. All right, as we walk back to the Town Hall, just to remind everyone that ADHDville
01:09:38
Speaker
is delivered fresh every Tuesday to all purveyors of fine podcasties. Please subscribe to the pod and rate us most marvellous and feel free to correspond at will in our comments sections because we might read one of them out. ah But wait, there's more if you want to see our beautiful beautiful faces. Hello. You can sally forth to the YouTube. So we're kind of getting our our YouTube game back up. You can also pick up a quill and email us at ADHDville at gmail dot.com. Yes. And yeah, so were visits mean visit on TikTok, YouTube, the couple of friends on Facebook and Instagram. But in the meantime,
01:10:27
Speaker
Be fucking kind to yourself. And I beseech you, fellow ADHDers, know thyself, sons of the helms, come hither and get flesh! Man, you really put some oomph into that list. Yeah, it's a sudden rush. Yeah. for betray The drugs are kicking in. Oh Jesus, I haven't taken the drugs today. Oh crap. okay Oh no. Yeah. Might be worth doing that. There, says the mayor. That's that.