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The Power of Differentiation – a conversation with marketing expert Barry LaBov
37 Plays27 days ago
Barry LaBov is the marketing expert who has developed a proprietary Brand Re-Engineering process that will help any organisation discover and maximise the value of their brand.
In this episode of The Independent Minds Barry explains to Michael Millward the difference between being different and having a differentiation that customers can identify and buy into.
Before you can win market share explains Barry, an organisation must first win hearts and minds.
During this conversation Barry uses examples from brands like Harley Davidson, Volkswagen, Audi, and Michael throws in classic Great British brands like Jaguar and Land Rover.
You will leave this podcast, as Michael did, enthused to find the power of your brands differentiating factors.
You can buy Books by Barry LaBov at these links
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr.
Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform, on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, and Google. It really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Find out more about both Michael Millward and Barry LaBov at Abeceder.co.uk
Travel
Barry LaBov works globally from his base in Indiana, USA.
If you would like to travel Indiana the best place to make your travel arrangements is The Ultimate Travel Club, which is where you can access trade prices for flights, hotels and holidays. Use my offer code ABEC79 to receive a discount on your membership fee.
Matchmaker.fm
Thank you to the team at Matchmaker.fm the introduction to Barry LaBov.
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if like Barry, you have something very interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
Three the network
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Visit Three for information about business and personal telecom solutions from Three, and the special offers available when you quote my referral code WPFNUQHU.
Being a Guest
If you would like to be a guest on The Independent Minds, please contact using the link at Abeceder.co.uk.
We recommend that potential guests take one of the podcasting guest training programmes available from Work Place Learning Centre.
We appreciate every like, download, and subscriber.
Thank you for listening.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Host
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencaster. Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abisida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone. I am your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abisida.
00:00:27
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the independent minds is made on Zencaster. Zencaster is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then dispute it to the major platforms. Zencaster really does make making podcasts so easy.
00:00:48
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencaster, visit zencaster dot.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code ABACEDA. All the details are in the description.
00:01:01
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencaster is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Guest Introduction: Barry Labov
00:01:21
Speaker
Today my guest independent mind who I met at matchmaker dot.fm is Barry Labov, the author of The Power of Differentiation, Winhearts, Minds and Market Share. Barry is based in Fort Wayne, Indiana, which is one of the states in the United States. It's sort of in the middle towards the top not somewhere that I have visited, but if I were to plan a trip, I would make all of my travel arrangements at the ultimate travel club, because that is where I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, holidays, and all sorts of other travel related purchases. There was a link and a membership discount code in the description. Now I've paid the rent. So hello, Barry. Hello, Michael. How are you doing today? I am doing great. It is a pleasure to speak with you and, uh,
00:02:13
Speaker
I love what you're doing here. So I'm very excited. Thank you very much. Thank you. I am also very excited to be talking to you because I think differentiation in the market is absolute. You've got to be able to explain to people what makes you different to the competition. So I am hoping to learn an awful lot as well today. So thank you very much for making so your time available for me.
Barry Labov's Journey from Musician to Business Owner
00:02:37
Speaker
Could we please start though by you giving us a little potted history of who Barrett Lebov is? I am a relatively bizarre person who started out as a musician. So when I was 14 years old, I was playing in a two man rock band with my brother and I played drums and keyboards at the same time. So I play a little bit of piano on the right hand and drums and sang and wrote songs. And what happened, Michael, was I started to realize I loved to create. I loved to do things that had not been done before. So I pursued that path to the point where I had songs that were recommended on billboard charts or on TV or
00:03:18
Speaker
on an MTV video, type things like that. And I jokingly say my music sold well under 1 million copies. So at one point I decided, you know, I think I ought to do something a little different. I ran a jingle company, like you have a jingle on your show. I ran a jingle company of my own and still had a rock band. And then one day my father passed away and I had a ah reckoning. I stopped for a moment and thought, you know, I don't know how long
The Art of Differentiation: Harley Davidson's Unique Sound
00:03:49
Speaker
I'm going to live. Why am I compromising? So what I did is I decided to focus my energy on a business and I started my company in earnest. And to this day now, I work with companies all over the world, mostly the United States, but I do work with McAllen, Scotch, Stoli Vodka, Harley Davidson, Audi, Volkswagen, and many other
00:04:14
Speaker
wonderful brands. And of course, Harley Davidson is one of those brands that really evokes places like Indiana. ah Harley is founded in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, which is five hours away by car from where I live. And it is a Midwestern brand. They are also a very modern brand in that they are now totally virtual. So their headquarters in Milwaukee, which I used to go to frequently, is no longer open. So they They're literally a virtual company. Sounds cool. You always know when there's a Harley coming down the road. Well, Michael, that's interesting. That's part of their differentiation. It is. And in the 1980s, see, this is one thing that's interesting. We'll talk about this today. Differentiation is not necessarily the same thing as superiority. They are very different. So if you think about it, you hear that Harley, that thunder.
00:05:08
Speaker
that thunder of a Harley, okay? Well, does that make it superior? Well, no. But boy, does it make it unique and distinct. And it's so distinct, I'm sure you heard the story, but some of the Japanese motorcycle brands tried to steal that sound and brought motorcycles out to the market with that sound. And Harley Davidson said, no, you don't. That's our sound. It's our distinctiveness. And they made sure that those ah motorcycle companies could not use the Harley Thunder. That's differentiation. Yes. What is the difference between being different and having a point of differentiation? You know, I think here's the thing I think is fascinating.
Authenticity in Differentiation: Customer and Employee Feedback
00:05:51
Speaker
You don't want to create
00:05:54
Speaker
your differentiation, Michael. What you want to do is discover it. That's because you want it to be natural. You want it to be authentic. So if it's your individual differentiation or if it's your business, either way, if you wake up in the morning and you go, okay, boy, I've got to remember to do that. I got to act like that. I got to pretend to be like the other people. I've got, okay, that's a lousy existence. If you wake up in the morning and say, look, I am not perfect for everybody,
00:06:24
Speaker
I happen to do one, two, or three things different, distinct, whatever you wanna call, but I really believe in them and I do them for a certain reason and for the right customer, I will be very appealing. And then I have to also admit for many other customers, I will not be, but I have this uniqueness, this distinctiveness that sets me apart from the other competitors in that segment.
00:06:53
Speaker
It's almost as if your customers tell you what your point of differentiation is rather than you saying this is our differentiation. That's very well said. When we conduct our process, we call it brand re-engineering, our first step is asking this question, what do you want this company to not change? What should they make sure they maintain? What should not be changed?
00:07:24
Speaker
And we learn from customers at that point. And by the way, we learn from employees, the same thing. We learn very, very interesting things and never is it they should not change their price or they should not, you know, change how convenient they are, something like that. We learn very, very heartfelt things. You know, they should not change the way they construct such and such because it saves lives. yeah And you go, wow. So,
00:07:53
Speaker
What you said is right. You don't just say, hey, this is this is me, I'm different and that's because I think I'm different and you gotta like me for it. You go, all right, why did you choose me? What was it? The other thing we have to do, again, it could be large business or small, is we have to respect what we hear. Even if you think, oh, that's nothing. No, hold on a minute. it It is something. It is something that's unique and we must honor it.
00:08:22
Speaker
Yes, but it's very often it sounds as if that uniqueness is not always clearly identifiable by the brand itself. It's something that comes from, like I said, the users of the brand, the consumers of the brand. They define what is unique about and their relationship, I suppose, with the brand.
Recognizing Unique Differentiators with External Perspectives
00:08:43
Speaker
They do define it, but as an example, my company will go into a factory or a plant or technology center and we will bring in a technology or technical team, depending on what kind of business it is, and we will look for their differentiators.
00:09:01
Speaker
And in many cases, Michael, the differentiators are right there in front of us. We see them. And our customer, our client goes, what what are you talking about? We'll go, does anybody else do this exactly? And they'll go, well, I don't think so. We go, well, that could be a differentiation. And the thing is,
00:09:20
Speaker
So often they're too close to what they're doing to see how special it is. So that's one of the greatest parts of my job. My team and I go in and we find that magic and it's very motivating for our clients because they're going, my gosh, I, I've been right in front of this for the last five years and I never even paid attention to it. I just took it for granted. Yeah. It's almost like the client is so used to seeing things every day. They're too close to the wood to see the trees.
00:09:49
Speaker
That's exactly right. And you need somebody to come in with a fresh pair of eyes looking for something in particular, or not looking for something in particular, but just experiencing something without any expectation, I suppose.
Communicating Differentiation to Customers
00:10:03
Speaker
Yeah, having your eyes open.
00:10:06
Speaker
and you're your mind ready to receive whatever it is or might be that is unique. And quite often, let's say it's a process, Michael, ah we'll say, well, what is your quality process? And let's say they have a seven-step quality process, and they go, yeah, but everybody does it. And we'll go, whoa, no, wait a minute. Before you denigrate yourself again,
00:10:30
Speaker
Does everybody do all seven steps? And as an example, it' it'll be very common. They'll go, well, no, but every one of those steps is done by somebody. And we go, okay, but does everyone in your segment do all seven? And we'll learn, well, no, nobody does. And we'll go, why does nobody do that? They go, well, it's extra money. It's extra time.
00:10:52
Speaker
It's a real pain, but we do it because we just want this perfect. We go, okay, you may have a differentiation there. And if you don't share that with your customers, they won't know. And you mentioned the forest for the trees. It's also to kind of connect that to another saying, it's kind of like if the tree falls in the forest and nobody's there, would it make a sound? And you know, that that old thing. Well, if you have a differentiation, but nobody knows about it,
00:11:20
Speaker
Is it really a differentiation? So it's up to you to say, hold on a minute, I've discovered this. Let's share this. Let's celebrate it. Sharing and celebrating can be two different things, I suppose. That's a great perception. It is very different. One thing we have in our process, it's our fifth step of the five steps that, and by the way, nobody has
Internal Celebration of Differentiation with Employees
00:11:43
Speaker
our process. That's one of our differentiators. Our fifth step is launching your brand or your product.
00:11:50
Speaker
But in that first step, Michael, you celebrate it first with the most important people, and that is your employees or anyone else who supports, services, or sells your product or brand. Because it's so important. It's not just, here's information on it. now Go back to work. it's Hold on a minute. This is what we do that's so special. And you know what? We're doing this. And each one of you are playing a major role. Each one of you has a meaning in what we're doing. And what's important in all of that, Michael, is that this provides significance to the people who work with and for us. And they need it today.
00:12:35
Speaker
They need it today more than ever because of so many people leaving their jobs unhappy. As an HR professional, I know all about people leaving jobs. They very rarely leave because they don't like the work. They will leave because something is wrong in the relationship between them and the organization or them and an individual group of individuals within the organization. The main part of it is the relationship. And the second part of the title of your book is about winning hearts minds and market share. And you put hearts first. And this differentiation, whether it's the brand's relationship with the consumer, whether that is business to consumer or businessto business to business is the person who pays you for what you do or what you produce. Brands also have relationships with their employees
Creating Meaningful Relationships with Employees and Customers
00:13:24
Speaker
as well. They do. And the subtitle, as you said, is win hearts.
00:13:30
Speaker
minds and market share and that's the order of importance. You win the hearts of your people because you mentioned as an HR professional, you've seen people leave, right? Well, if they're working somewhere, making some money, and that's it, and they go home every night just tired, why why should they care?
00:13:53
Speaker
So we need to provide a meaning for them. We need them to know that, wait a minute, you are appreciated, number one. Number two, you're doing something that's important. There's a reason that we do what we do, and you're playing a big role in that.
00:14:07
Speaker
If you win their hearts and then their minds, you got to win their minds over, too. They've got to go, OK, well, I'm glad I'm doing that. OK, but what's the purpose of what we're doing? Why does this make sense? Why should I affiliate myself with what you do instead of just walking down the street somewhere else to make a little bit more an hour? So we have to do that. And once we do those two things, we win the hearts and the minds. Guess what? Our customers can sense that.
00:14:37
Speaker
They can tell when they're dealing with somebody that loves what they do and they are so proud of it versus someone who's going, yeah, what do you want? Yeah, okay, great. Okay, goodbye. It is so different. And that's what we need to do. That's that's the message inside of my message, which is you got to motivate and give significance to the people who represent your brand.
00:15:04
Speaker
You're a marketing person who's making a very clear connection between the marketing of the brand and the relationship between the brand and the people who produce what the brand
Embodying Brand Identity: The Heart Tattoo Analogy
00:15:17
Speaker
represents. And I've seen one of the things that you have said is that you want your employees and your customers to represent your company. You want your employees to represent your company as if its logo is tattooed on their heart.
00:15:31
Speaker
Yes. That's a powerful thing to say. It is what you think about it, some great brands. So in our country, the U.S. Marines, let's say, or the Navy or Harley Davidson, people have tattoos there, but nobody has a tattoo of a commodity on their body parts. You know, nobody tattoos a commodity. We have to realize we are pressured in business to be like everything else, to dumb it down.
00:15:58
Speaker
to sandpaper those rough edges and make everything smooth and predictable. And when we do that, we lose our personality. We lose our distinctiveness. And when I talk about, I want the logo of my company on the hearts of my people it's I want them to realize that hey we're doing something that's important and it's not about me it's not it's about us making a difference and I have to say almost every company out there if it's a good company run with and by good people you're doing something about you and if you don't think it you better stop right now and go no oh hold on a minute maybe I need to rethink this because we have to make sure that's part of our message
00:16:47
Speaker
A brand is a promise, isn't it? yes It's a promise of what you will deliver, the image, the reputation, everything that makes up the brand is a promise of what someone can expect to receive as a result of spending money with you or spending time with you as a brand if you're an employee.
00:17:07
Speaker
Yeah, we pay employees to work in our business, but actually the most important purchasing decision they make is how they spend their time. And if they choose to spend their time working in our business, we have to do something more than just so exchange that time for money. We need to also see it as an opportunity to build something more than just that financial transaction.
00:17:33
Speaker
Well, today with technology as it is and the ability for people to work hybrid or totally virtual almost anywhere in the world.
00:17:45
Speaker
if we don't realize as leaders that we have to provide some sort of purpose and meaning for our people, for them to stay. If we don't realize it, we're we're really missing it because that's what it's all about. And your brand, and you said it well, Michael, your brand is not that thing that's called a logo.
Genuine Brand Promises Over Perfection
00:18:05
Speaker
That's just some either some words or some artwork. That's that's nothing. Your brand,
00:18:11
Speaker
is this promise. It's something that somebody knows and then says, okay, here's what I expect. And that's what they want. And, and you know, we talked a little bit about superiority and differentiation but not being the same thing.
00:18:27
Speaker
People do not expect a brand to be perfect. That's not the point. But they expect it to be genuine. And we need to promote who we are as a brand and people in the genuine way that we are. We cannot try to be something we are not, and a good, smart customer will realize right away that, you know, these people don't quite get it. They say they do this and that, but yeah I think
00:18:59
Speaker
I don't know, I just don't, I'm not buying into them. And they'll go somewhere else and work with someone or something that is genuine, something that they say, okay, I think this brand will come through. And that's what we have to realize, that's our promise. yes That's why whatever we promise has to be something we can deliver because it's uniquely us. Yes, very much so.
00:19:27
Speaker
very much so. You've mentioned Harley Davidson is one of the brands that you think are doing it very well. Of any other examples of brands that you you like what they do, you mentioned that you work with Audi and with VW, Volkswagen, two brands that are part of the same family. I'm sure that everybody at Volkswagen and Audi will dispute this.
00:19:49
Speaker
But I've always seen them as there is an Audi car that is corresponded to a Volkswagen car, that is corresponded to a SEAT car. They're all part of the same family. How does all that work with their brand?
Case Study: Audi and Volkswagen's Brand Separation
00:20:03
Speaker
That's a great question. I got to see that very, very up close for at least 15, 20 years working with Volkswagen and Audi in the United States. Here's how smart they were. They really, and they still are, of course. But back then I'm saying they they were facing something and they were very smart.
00:20:20
Speaker
They had gotten to the point where the Audi product and the Volkswagen product were not distinguished apart. They were very close. And it was for very efficient reasons, Michael. And it was because they were allowing a dealer to represent both an Audi and Volkswagen dealership. So a dealer could have both brands, sell both brands together. Well, guess what? Which one's going to be cheaper? Well, the Volkswagen. So how do you sell that? Well, you say, well, you know, the Audi is good, but you know, the Volkswagen is cheaper and it's really an Audi. Well,
00:20:55
Speaker
It was a very bad situation for those comp of those two brands because they are great brands. and what they did now this is This is a genius thing they did, and it's not in my book. I talk about them in my book very glowingly, but I've never told this story. What they did that was so brilliant, and I did not understand it at first, so they were way ahead of me.
00:21:18
Speaker
They said, okay, we're going to have brand separation. I thought, okay, that sounds good. They said, we're not going to allow dealers to carry both lines. So you can only handle Audi or only handle Volkswagen. That's it. I thought, oh okay, that's good. The other thing they did.
00:21:38
Speaker
at corporate in America, they split up the teams that represented the two brands. Up to that point, they're sitting right next to each other all day long, hanging out, having coffee, laughing, patting each other on the back, and all of a sudden they said no.
00:21:54
Speaker
Volkswagen's on floor number three and Audi's on floor number four. And it was like, what? And you physically separated them so that they were not physically near each other as much. Now, of course they would say hi and they were friends.
00:22:10
Speaker
But they had a different world, and what they did that was very, very smart was, while behind the curtain, so to speak, they would share services like accounting and things like that in front of the curtain, which is what we all see. We customers see what's in front of the curtain. So I see Audi and Volkswagen as a customer, ah and what they did was behind the curtain. Yeah, they had shared services, like I said, accounting, other things.
00:22:42
Speaker
but They made sure that their teams at headquarters and elsewhere were separate so that there was an Audi culture that started to develop. And then there was a separate, very good, ah but separate Volkswagen culture. And it was a very smart thing to do because think about if they were telling dealers, oh no, you're not allowed to have both brands.
00:23:06
Speaker
But yet those dealers walk in into corporate and the people are right next to each other, you know, sharing cookies and drinking coffee together. You go, come on, you guys. So I think that was pretty brilliant of them. And it worked.
00:23:17
Speaker
Yes. I went into a Jaguar Land Rover dealership and in the Range Rover, Land Rover part of the dealership, you've got the Range Rovers on one side and the Land Rovers on the other. I'm sort of looking at one and then looking at the other, then looking at one, looking at the other. And said to the salesperson, could we put that Land Rover next to that Range Rover? And he said, no.
00:23:38
Speaker
And it was a very definitive note. We were not going to be able to see the Land Rover next to the Range Rover at all. They're in separate parts of the dealership, although it's the same company that makes them. right And it went out into the car park. Even in the car park, there were no Land Rovers parked next to Range Rovers. There might have been all sorts of similarities between them, but they were very much targeted at very different types of people.
00:24:05
Speaker
Right. And that's the same sort of thing with the Audi and the Volkswagen. It is. It's part of the
Consistency in Brand Messaging
00:24:10
Speaker
experience. One thing we have to realize is that people do not distinguish the experience that they get at a dealership, let's say, versus the brand. So the whole point is if I'm a Land Rover person, honestly, I don't want to be bothered by a Range Rover. I'm going over to Land Rover or whatever.
00:24:30
Speaker
And I want to be in my world. I want my experience to be that. And you know, you think about it, that's again, they're trying to have brand separation within a dealership. Yes. Yeah. But how do we know when a brand isn't getting its differentiation right? We know it because as a consumer, we go, what was that about?
00:24:54
Speaker
in their marketing or their messaging. We go, what what ah what was that? And so often, you said it a little earlier, so often they're trying to be so many different things that you don't know what what their whole point is. And it could be a billboard on the highway, it could be a commercial, it could be something on ah the internet or social media. It should be very clear, oh, okay,
00:25:19
Speaker
This is what they're about. That's how you know, because if you're trying to be too many things, you end up being nothing. Yes, about being very clear about what it is that you are, what it is that you do, and who, I suppose, your ideal customer is. I used to wake up in the morning when I was running my business in the beginning, and I used to think, I have to get all these clients. I got to get a million clients and all that.
00:25:42
Speaker
there's There is a point where you realize, I don't want every single human on earth to be my client or customer. And it's with every brand you have to look that way. Because we if you think you appeal to everyone and everything, you have no distinction.
Focusing on Attracting the Right Customers
00:26:00
Speaker
There has to be a point where you go, look, here's what we offer. Now, if that's not of interest to you, the other things we do, we do well, but we're not special in those areas.
00:26:12
Speaker
However, in these two areas, we feel that nobody can touch us. If you value those, then I think you have to consider us. That's where differentiation is so powerful. And that's where you don't have to discount yourself to win a project or to win the sale. It all makes sense an awful lot of sense and certainly has made me think. Thank you very much, Barry. I've really enjoyed our conversation. It's been very interesting.
Conclusion and Promotions
00:26:39
Speaker
The book, Power of Differentiation, Win Hearts, Minds and Market Share is available from all of the usual outlets and we'll put some links in the description. Thank you very much. Really appreciate your time today. It's been great. Michael, absolutely brilliant questions. Thank you so much. Thank you. I am Michael Millward, the managing director of Abecedah, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Barry Labov, author of The Power of Differentiation, Winhearts, Minds, and Market Share. You can find out more information about both of us at abecedah.co.uk. There's a link in the description.
00:27:19
Speaker
I must remember to thank the team matchmaker for introducing me to Barry. If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests, or if like Barry, you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker dot.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made. There is a link to matchmaker.fm and an offer code in the description.
00:27:43
Speaker
If you've been listening to the independent minds in the United Kingdom on your smartphone, you may like to know that 3 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data. So listening on 3 means you can wave goodbye to buffering. There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:28:08
Speaker
The description, just like Barry's book, is so worth reading. If you have liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abecedah is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think. Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.