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Episode 49 - Carina Sauter (Lead PM of AIoT) and Patricia Goldberg (Senior Data Analytics Engineer)
38 Plays23 days ago
In this episode, Sade sits down with two inspiring guests from Wemolo, the company transforming digital parking with AI-powered licence plate recognition. Their innovative solutions, monitoring and management, are making parking smarter by improving efficiency, utilisation, and administration.
Together, they dive into:
- What first sparked their interest in tech, and how their motivations have evolved
- The skills and mindset that help people thrive in the industry
- The most exciting and impactful projects they’ve worked on so far
- Wemolo’s tech culture and its commitment to inclusion
- Their experiences as women in tech, and the advice they’d share with others looking to follow a similar path
- How they see the tech landscape evolving in the years ahead
LinkedIn Profiles:
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Transcript
Introduction to Guests and Their Roles
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome back to a new episode of Women Taught Tech. Today I'm joined by two incredible guests from WeMolo, Karina, lead PM for ARIT and Patricia, senior data analytics engineer.
00:00:27
Speaker
We talked all about what drew them into tech, how they've grown and what it's like shaping innovation at WeMolo. They'll share their experience as women in tech, what excites them about the future and of course why inclusion matters now more than ever.
00:00:40
Speaker
Awesome. i So really excited to have you both here. um i know, typical starting question, and but tell me a little bit more about yourselves. um Yeah, thank you for having us. and My name is Karina. I'm the Group Product Manager of AIUT at Wemolo.
00:00:57
Speaker
AIoT is a word marriage of AI and IoT, so I oversee our hardware development as well as the software that runs on our hardware. Vimalu, of course, is a parking company. We're revolutionizing the parking experience, and I'm very looking forward to having this conversation today.
00:01:16
Speaker
Amazing. And yourself, Patricia? I'm Patricia, I'm an analytics engineer at Vemolo. So I've been here at Vemolo for almost three years. And my job is basically getting all the data that is possible. So for people to do self analytics, meaning they can answer their own questions with the data that we already have.
00:01:35
Speaker
Amazing, amazing. And I guess like what drew you both to
Journey into Tech and Influences
00:01:39
Speaker
tech? um Because I find like, you know, everyone has different motivations to get into tech and also to stay in tech. um So I guess on your side, Karina, what drew you to tech in the first place? And how has that motivation kind of evolved over time since you've been here?
00:01:53
Speaker
Yeah, I think it was quite the journey for me, to be quite honest. and It started slowly but surely. i was always interested in computers, but then I think it really only hit me that this is something I want to dedicate my life to more in university. When I took some first courses in my undergrad degree, I was doing business and I did some courses on, I think it was specifically computer.
00:02:15
Speaker
innovation around smart fridges at Tesco's and what you could do with them in a store environment. And that really hooked me a lot. It still took me a lot of different stations and, you know, a couple of work environments and and jobs that I picked up that I didn't quite enjoy that were not quite the right fit.
00:02:32
Speaker
um And then ultimately, I think ah the... yeah and our career advisor at Berkeley during my graduate studies was she sat me down and looked at my resume and we had a five minute chat and then she looked me square in the eye and said, you're a product manager.
00:02:47
Speaker
um And then from then on it clicked essentially. And I've been on that very, very happy path um ever since. So I think that's how it evolved. i had a woman sit me down and tell me that this is what I was going to do. And I'm very happy that that's how it happened.
00:03:01
Speaker
Interesting. I would love to know what she saw in yourself that made her think that you're a product manager because yeah there's so many different paths and and kind of titles in tech. like I wonder what it was.
00:03:12
Speaker
um But yeah, really interesting. And yourself, Patricia, what drew you to in tech? I think mine was quite straightforward. so Because when I was choosing my career, a I knew I need something in STEAM. So definitely something math technical.
00:03:31
Speaker
And then I talked to a professor, like what careers can be done. So he said, there's this thing called computer science. I was like, OK.
00:03:40
Speaker
Let's see what computer science is. And then I did some courses in still in my high school, ah like programming courses. And I liked it. And then I talked to my mom and my dad. And both were programmers in the bachelor's, so both my mom and my dad.
00:03:53
Speaker
So I was like, okay, that's things maybe is in the gym. So that's kind of started. And then after my bachelor, I just did my bachelor and then I did my master's and I just continue the same career.
00:04:04
Speaker
Yeah. And I've got a question for you both, just came to the top of my head.
Would You Have Entered Tech Anyway?
00:04:08
Speaker
Do you think you, because of course your stories are very different, but still very similar, right? Both, I guess, were told, not told literally, but like, of course, yourself, Karina, product manager, Patricia, of course, your professor, said you know, tried computer science.
00:04:20
Speaker
Do you think you still would have got into tech, even if you maybe didn't have those sorts of conversations? I think i can say by myself, probably yes, to be honest, because even if I didn't talk to my professor, maybe my mom would suddenly say, oh, maybe I can do computer science. Like, I did that.
00:04:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. well It was different name, but it's still computer science. I would say on my side, I was very lost in the beginning and I was going in a million directions. I wanted to be a politician and you know I studied business because it was so broad and I didn't have to close any doors right at the very beginning.
00:04:57
Speaker
So I feel like there's a real chance that had I not had a couple of really insightful conversations and mentors along the way there is absolutely, ah you know, some alternate realities where I am a biologist or, um you know, somebody else, just a regular in a business role somewhere um without as much ah to do with tech as I'm as I'm doing now. And yeah it just happened to be this way for me yeah no honestly i find it so interesting because i think even like the the term product manager must admit i had no clue about product management until i actually became a tech recruiter before that i looked at tech as just a software engineer and even then it was more like hey someone who works with a computer so it's so interesting how there's different roles within tech that maybe you may not have come across if you didn't have these conversations you had korean and of course yourself patricia
00:05:48
Speaker
Yeah.
Essential Skills for Success in Tech
00:05:49
Speaker
And I guess you've both now been in the tech space for for quite a long time. um What skills or mindset do you think is most important, especially when thriving in your role, whether it be, you know, in tech in general, or of course, now at WeMolo?
00:06:03
Speaker
um What do you think is the most important skill set for you? I think the the first is to have like an open mind. Tech involves a lot. So even like I've been here tech for 15 years, more or less, since my bachelor's and my master's and so on, and completely changed already.
00:06:21
Speaker
So you do need to have like this open mind that things will change and you have to adapt I think this is the most important one. And the second one is not to be scared um when things go wrong, because things will go wrong.
00:06:35
Speaker
It's just how you see ah the the solution of the problem. So you don't see the problem, have you have to see the solution of the problem. So we just don't be scared as well.
00:06:48
Speaker
I love that.
00:06:51
Speaker
I would agree. um i think from a mindset perspective, also for me, adapt adaptability to change and flexibility there is is key. Technology is changing so fast. Your company might be changing, your role might be changing and ah being able to not just, you know,
00:07:09
Speaker
be taken from one wave left and right to another, but also ah being able to drive that change change and own it, I think is is huge, both for yourself as well as your company in the end and your career.
00:07:21
Speaker
um And then from a, I think another mindset or like more skill set or two more skill sets, I think are are really important is, uh, I think there's a lot in tech where you just don't have the answer immediately, right? Where there's a challenge, you just don't know what the solution is.
00:07:36
Speaker
And then being able to come at it with a structured problem solving approach, being able to take a deep deep breath and say, all right, I do not know the answer to this question, but what might be a structure?
00:07:47
Speaker
and that I can apply to actually you know go through problem solving steps to arrive at an answer at a small scale, right? When you an interview to the way to, oh, I need to structure a six month project and I don't know what the outcome of it will be yeah at the end. It's super important. I think that skill set to you know stay calm and then structure your own your own work and structure your way through from a problem to a solution.
00:08:12
Speaker
um And then I think for me personally, one additional skill set that's been really vital has been as a product manager in particular has been to be like the spider in the web. So a connector, right? A social butterfly a little bit in that sense. So finding, you know, more commonalities than differences with people, connecting with them, understanding what's driving them.
00:08:34
Speaker
understanding what they need also to be able to do their best work. um I think that's something that's that's really huge in tech because ultimately it's all about people, it's all about collaboration.
00:08:45
Speaker
And so that skill set has really helped me also. Yeah, you're so right, because at the end of all the kind of tech products or tech softwares we use are people, right? So you have to be able to connect with them in in some capacity, whether that's through how they use a platform, what their feedback is, all of that. I think it's very important no matter kind of what role you're in in tech.
Daily Roles and Challenges at WeMolo
00:09:06
Speaker
Yeah. welcome And of course, I'm sure I would love to kind of shine a light on how your roles may be the same or differ. So, you know, day to day, like what, what are some of that involved? Because I would love to at least provide insights to those who may be looking to get programming, those who looking to get into product management, I guess for you both, like, what does a typical day to day look like or yeah, typical day in your role look like?
00:09:29
Speaker
I don't have a day to day, I guess. Every day is different. It's been three years in here and I don't think there was one single day that was the same as the days before. So it's hard to say, but ah I would say structure wise, we have planned projects that we have to accomplish through a timeline, right?
00:09:49
Speaker
for example, set by a product manager, such as Carina. And we have things that just suddenly appears. For example, something is broken or something urgent come up or some security vulnerability that we have to figure it how to solve it.
00:10:08
Speaker
And so these kind of two things come out normally in parallel, right? So plans and non-plan. But definitely the project manager is the person that normally controls it and say, OK, but is this highest priority than this project or not? And we are the ones that actually say how to do it in the technical side.
00:10:31
Speaker
Interesting. And I guess, Karina, for a tradition, has basically said what your day-to-day looks like. um But yeah, you know, typical day in in your role, how is that?
00:10:43
Speaker
I would also say that the answer is that there is no typical day, right? And that's what we both love about it, I guess, that no more day is the same and then you have literally um so much diversity um in activities.
00:10:55
Speaker
And I think for me, I think it's also changed a lot over the years, right? Since I'm more in a product leadership role now, my day is more spent. and still It's still both, right? There's a lot of strategy sessions, directions, figuring out what is the next one to two or three years.
00:11:12
Speaker
are going to look like, where we're going to move, what hardware is next and why, what problems are worth tackling. um And then on the on the next day, right, or like the other half of the day, might have a lot actually and monitoring and seeing for myself how the new hardware is performing, right, how users are interacting with it and if it makes sense without us having to explain it, right.
00:11:33
Speaker
So very, very diverse. And then the next day I might again talk to a customer who wants to you know buy your system and has a couple more deep dive questions on the hardware or something. So I think that's one aspect, right? ah Generally, I would say I spend most of my time now really more connecting the dots ah between the teams.
00:11:50
Speaker
So I'm not as much executing myself anymore, building features and managing day to day. I do that still sometimes, but I think I'm ah pouring the the majority of my energy into making sure my teams can actually, ah and you know, do the brilliant work themselves and um yeah, and like solving problems properly. So um I don't have to do it for them and but solving the problems myself anymore. I'm just allowing them to or providing the conditions and the environment for them to thrive and do so at scale.
Transitioning to Leadership
00:12:22
Speaker
Yeah, I guess, you know, in going from, I guess, being more hands on to maybe less hands on and more connecting the dots now, what would you say was the hardest part about transitioning from that? Because I know when I was a hands on like recruiter moving into a leadership role,
00:12:37
Speaker
I found it very tricky. I found it very hard to delegate anything. I wanted do everything myself. But then I also noticed my performance dipped a bit because I was then helping everyone else. But then their performance was doing better, but mine personally wasn't.
00:12:50
Speaker
So for you, like, how did you find that transition? And what was the biggest challenge for that?
00:12:56
Speaker
I would definitely concur that this is a major challenge, especially if you've done the role yourself first and you are in the details. You need to actively take a step back and say, that is not my job anymore. And i need to allow that person to do their job and to learn and make mistakes in a safe way without me micromanaging. Right.
00:13:15
Speaker
And I think what's helped me a lot here is just having very candid conversations with my with my team, understanding their expectations, understanding how they would like to be managed and knowing that they should let me know when they would like me to step in, right? Giving feedback when I've been doing ah too much of it, right?
00:13:35
Speaker
um And then ultimately, I think over time, you just learn that it doesn't scale. right And as you understand your role differently and you're realizing that, look, if I'm really doing this job super well and with 80% of my capacity, I cannot do what I'm supposed to be doing the rest of the time and also with 80% of capacity.
00:13:54
Speaker
So I think over time, you just ask yourself a lot of times, like, what is the most important and most value-adding activity that I can be doing right now? And more often than not, it doesn't include micromanaging your team or stepping in and going into the details. Right.
00:14:08
Speaker
and and And rather building the process so that over time, your team can can easily do it themselves and making yourself redundant um in that way. not going to say it's easy. Right. But I think that's like the natural path that every leader, especially if they're like, you know, um slowly but surely ramping up the team, I would say, is is going through this.
00:14:28
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's the goal, right? If you can do, you've done your job well when your team somewhat don't need you ah much more. um But that I think is is quite hard to admit, right? Because then I'm thinking like, what do I do now? But yeah, no, it's really interesting. And I guess like looking at your careers in general, um what's been the most exciting or impactful project you've worked on so far, be it where you are now or be in in a previous company?
Impactful Projects and Career Pathways
00:14:52
Speaker
I always love to kind of hear about exciting tech projects. i I think I'll just start, right? ah Because obviously the first, I did a bachelor in computer science, which quite general, right, programming.
00:15:04
Speaker
And now I'm a data engineer and its engineer, and I think this career path ah kind of came from one of the first project that I did in a bank. So I'm originally from Brazil, and I used to work in this bank.
00:15:17
Speaker
And they had this big migration project, which they wanted to change the data from one place to the other. That seems simple, but it's terabytes of data.
00:15:28
Speaker
And I was just out of the university. So I was like 20, 22, something like that. And I loved it. I think, okay, so now I need to do something on data. And this project took some months, like at at least six months of migrating terabytes of data from one place to the other.
00:15:46
Speaker
And that's how actually I actually decided to become a data engineer. And I think there was like a big impact in my career, to be honest. Wow. you been I'm not an engineer because i was like, oh that sounds that sounds fun. That sounds quite easy. Just we move it over. Yeah, I also thought so, but then apparently was not. but Surely you're just picking up moving. That seems easy, right?
00:16:10
Speaker
ah And what about you, Karina? and Well, don't feel like an engineer at all right now, but em well I'm not also, that's okay. But and I think for me, the common pattern of things that really excite me and that I've been able to like work through a couple times now is ah really taking a fresh look at something that's been maybe ah bit under...
00:16:30
Speaker
under cared for, i would say. At my previous job, I was working for a B2B SaaS company doing business travel. And there specifically, we decided that we needed to take a fresh look of our enterprise product in particular. So really understanding look, if we just build a tool just for enterprise and a solution just for enterprise, what would would what would we need to do differently?
00:16:52
Speaker
And so I really enjoyed understanding, really starting from scratch, right? Starting with the customer, deep diving into how do you actually think about travel at that scale? What problems become more relevant? And how might that be different to a company that only is you know smaller, like a a midsize company or a smaller company, like a startup?
00:17:09
Speaker
um you know, what what professionalizes and what does it make change if there's a whole org that you need to design for. and So that really like is something I really enjoyed, right? And bringing that fresh perspective and like got almost like the initial roadmap, the first roadmap, the first strategic understanding of a new space that nobody had thought about looking through that lens before.
00:17:30
Speaker
and and we're doing something similar now again um at Wemolo, thankfully. where we have a project called OptiPack, which really is about understanding a new customer segment for us, which is real estate and ah using our technology ah and to solve some of their most critical problems.
00:17:48
Speaker
um And it's really about learning how actually do you think about trash? right, or maintenance and services that need to happen on a parking lot? And how might our hardware and software actually be able to support facility and property managers um on a parking lot?
00:18:04
Speaker
So this is something that's really exciting to me because it's new hardware, new problems, a lot of customer research, business building, right? Like what's the business case here, the pricing, the go-to-market, who's the target audience, decision makers, et cetera, et cetera.
00:18:18
Speaker
and I think that's what I thrive in, I think. and and trying to like needing to make sense of a lot of complex data and then weave it into a strategy and compelling storytelling that leads to business results and success in the end.
00:18:33
Speaker
How exciting. And of course, I'm sure culture wise for you to kind of do your job well, the culture has to support what it is you're doing.
WeMolo's Inclusive Culture
00:18:42
Speaker
And of course, you personally, but also socially, I guess for you both, like what makes Vumolo's tech culture different from anywhere else you've worked? Because I think, you know, you can thrive in a role, you can just be in a role. And I think, you know, for you both, it feels that you're both are thriving. And of course, that probably is supported by the culture of where you are.
00:18:59
Speaker
um So what makes it very different um compared to anywhere else you've worked? Patricia, you can go first. I was going to say maybe you couldn't go first because I went first. ah but um I think for me, if I had to describe it in one word, it would be empowerment.
00:19:15
Speaker
I feel very trusted and empowered to do the job that I was given in a way that makes sense to me, ah first and foremost. I think that is huge.
00:19:26
Speaker
It also really helps that we have strong executive leaders, ah female leaders at Wemulu as well. And so also seeing that, you know, and there is no gender bias inside the company and that we're really all supportive. What matters is that ah you have the vision, you have the ambition, you you put the work in, right?
00:19:45
Speaker
And the results ultimately and just your your talent in that sense and your output is what matters. think that's hugely motivating to me, right? and And I think is this you know it's also the small things. Bimulu is actually really actively also um working toward and and being an inclusive company.
00:20:02
Speaker
It's the big things like making sure we have you know diverse representation in in management. It's the... the medium things like ensuring all of our managers for performance reviews. We go through bias training, right, and making sure we're aware of all sorts of biases when we're assessing performance.
00:20:20
Speaker
We're also making sure that it's very consistent across everybody and we're fact checking ourselves and a lot. And it's the small things like we have gender neutral bathrooms, for example. So it's really um on all levels. It is something that from a culture perspective is very strong. And I think this is what um Yeah, it makes this a really inclusive and empowering and yeah pleasant, I would say, place to work at.
00:20:46
Speaker
I think it was a perfect answer. like but There's nothing to be added. like Definitely the trustability and inclusion of the culture has been just improving throughout the years.
00:20:57
Speaker
Definitely. Yeah, I think the trust aspect is really important, right? Because, you know, the way you do your roles, both um compared to maybe how anyone else may, will be very different. And I think it's the trust that WeModa has given you to do your job in the way which you feels best that also you are going to enjoy.
00:21:13
Speaker
There's no point just giving you a rule book, for here's what you need to do and that's it. There needs to be an element of trust and a bit of like um accountability and a bit of ownership over what it is you feels best for whatever project you're working on.
00:21:25
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I think the micromanager that Karina said before, like she tries not to do it. think all the managers try not to do it because i don't see anybody complaining about it and everybody's kind of independent on on their own project. So it's kind of, we are given a project and now from now on you're responsible for it and you have to just figure out how to do it properly, obviously, but it's still you're the owner of that specific project.
00:21:49
Speaker
I think if I needed to add or if I could to add one thing, because you also specifically asked about what do I think does Vemolo do differently to maybe
Hiring Philosophy and Employee Growth
00:21:57
Speaker
other employers? And I think I've had a couple at this point.
00:22:01
Speaker
And I would say what really i think Vemolo does differently is I've never seen a company before that like leans so much into hiring for potential and giving people the benefit of the doubt as part of hiring and saying, look, I think this person is really smart and ambitious and driven.
00:22:21
Speaker
And, you know, I think I can hold her accountable. I'll just give her a role and I'm not going to, you know, and even if she doesn't hit all the boxes from a pure technical requirement perspective, maybe, right, or or years of experience.
00:22:35
Speaker
And I think that's really also, you know, led to a culture where everybody is, you know, doing their best work because they are in roles where it's stretch like there's stretch roles, right? And they're growing. And it is a very satisfying, I think, feeling for a lot of us.
00:22:50
Speaker
to actually be learning on the job on a daily basis. And yeah, you're really also you know only realizing your own potential and and how far you can really go because you've gotten this initial trust and little push and nudge in the beginning.
00:23:03
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it comes down to opportunities, right? Because not only just for women, there are other minorities as well who may not be given the exact same opportunities. But I think when you do look at someone's potential, you can build a more diverse team because unfortunately, in the world we live in, there are so many women and minorities that maybe don't have the the kind of 10 years of experience because they haven't been given that chance. Whereas, you know, it seems that we are actually giving not only just women, but people in general the chance to I guess, be in a role which they may not have the years of experience for, but have all the skill set to actually do the job. And I think for me, can you do the job? Yes. Okay, cool. Let's go for it.
00:23:38
Speaker
um It doesn't need to be you've got 10 years of experience in tech for it to work out. Yeah, I think in even as you said, it's even hard to not even find somebody with 10 years experience, but rather like women in tech times tend to give up throughout the years, right? Like when when I enter my bachelor, I was 20% of women.
00:23:57
Speaker
And then when I left, it was 10%. So 10% gave up in the middle. And these numbers actually drops from the master, from the PhD, if you continue yeah yeah eat even even in the in the workplace, right, is also drops.
00:24:10
Speaker
So, yeah, it's hard to find somebody that sticks for tennis, I would say, in the in the tech. But whoever does, BEMU is a great place to work. I love that.
00:24:22
Speaker
And I guess, based on your own experiences and also maybe based on what you may have done differently, um what advice would you give to other women and maybe looking me to get into tech?
Advice for Women in Tech
00:24:33
Speaker
To get in or to continue? yeah I mean, both let's let's do both like to gain, cause that's one thing. Right. But then also continuing is also another. So yeah. What advice would you give to other women?
00:24:44
Speaker
I think to start right is to forget about the bias that you have, that the ah specifically more now computer science, right? Because it's the one that i actually did that are only main in the basement programming the whole night and drinking Coke.
00:25:01
Speaker
Not true, right? So it's definitely not true. So just forget about these biases and see if you actually like the career as a as a whole. Yeah, that's so true. And if you enter, find your group, I would say.
00:25:14
Speaker
I think this helped me a lot um to find the group that actually includes you and not excludes you. Yeah, like a community that can really help you in your career. Yeah, definitely.
00:25:25
Speaker
So either a mentor or really a ah group. So i had groups like female tech leaders, women in tech that helped me throughout my career that actually pushed me to continue. Otherwise i may have dropped as well in the middle.
00:25:40
Speaker
So I think there's two points. I would fully agree. i think technical credibility also in the beginning is something that's really important. I think to get started or getting into tech, I think, especially as as somebody who hasn't worked or no experience, threat and building this technical credibility first, that gives you that access to the room, I would say, right that gets you the chair the table, I think is super important.
00:26:05
Speaker
and something you can actually you have ownership over, right? You have control over educating yourself, doing tutorials, doing courses, ah learning and really picking up some some technical skills is in everybody's control.
00:26:17
Speaker
And I would highly recommend, you know, whether it's data analysis, analysis whether it's ah coding, whether it's just, you know, tinkering with hardware because that's more your jam, right? and Actually having some skills, I think, is is a good starting point and building some skill sets there. and And then second, I would also think over time, right, for also people to stay in tech and and finding their voice,
00:26:40
Speaker
um building confidence over time i think and i think this is especially something that i see women struggling with more a little bit unfortunately and i don't think it's it's necessary but i think that's the advice i give uh yeah especially i mean everybody that's you know fresh in in technology ah understanding that everybody is starting you know with a lot with little knowledge and little experience and then it's really important to find your own confidence over time, and i think is key to be able to tell your own story and build your career and drive it and own it rather than, you know, um letting things happen to you.
00:27:17
Speaker
Yeah.
Industry Improvements for Diversity
00:27:18
Speaker
I guess following on from that, right, like these ah these things and this advice is great, but I feel like it's very like, what do we need to do? um What do you think the tech industry could do as a whole to maybe support women um who may be getting into tech or even looking to leave tech?
00:27:34
Speaker
Like what what changes do you think the industry could make to make it a bit easier for women to be here?
00:27:41
Speaker
Maybe. um From my side, I think what I would really like the industry to do is move away more from hiring for culture fit, right? I'd love to see more of a culture add.
00:27:53
Speaker
So really looking at people and embracing when they're not quite the fit or a mirror of yourself or of the existing team, but providing a new unique perspective and edge. And I think that is something that I I think it does not, you know, I think culture fits. ah Everybody says, yes, that's super important. This person, we need to like him or her to work, like to to to work with. Right. But I think we're not spending enough time on really saying, well, what unique perspective might this person bring that we do not have representation of?
00:28:25
Speaker
yet And I would really love ah for this to, you know, not just be ah yeah something that that really um is paid more attention to. Additionally, generally, I think, you know, I really appreciated, you know, in the past, I think the couple last couple of years, I thought we actually did more to ensure or actively do to like ensure inclusion at the workplace. I think we're going backwards a little bit, or a lot of larger tech companies are going backwards here. And I think that's a mistake, right? And I think that yeah baking inclusion into the foundation and and doing more of the things that, as I think mentioned before, that we're doing here, like training it for biases,
00:29:08
Speaker
making sure promotion processes and performance review processes are equitable and fair and everybody's checking for biases here, right? Small things like policies, benefits, being equitable and fair and appealing to everybody, right?
00:29:25
Speaker
and Office space design, right? That it's inclusive for everybody. That shouldn't be an afterthought. It's not like a nice to have to think about later. It should be baked into the foundation. i would love to see that more. um and I think we were working in that direction, but I think we've unfortunately gotten taken a couple steps back here.
00:29:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think I would just include ah inclusion also in the advertisement. So because as I said, so people have this idea of people in tech is like this specifically mind ah like person comes to mind normally when people think about people in tech and this is most likely right so there's some researches around it that is because of the most advertising when talking about computer science or computer and engineers software engineers shows like man in a computer
00:30:21
Speaker
And if you have inclusion in advertising general, not only like in the industry, but before that, already in the university side, I think it would be easier for people to see themselves in this role.
00:30:35
Speaker
So kind of not not everybody can be a role model, right? But if you see at least some role models, you can think about, oh, maybe this profession is good for me as well. I see myself in this position.
00:30:47
Speaker
And this comes from images from memory. Yes. Yeah, no, that's amazing. I think honestly, both of you said some really, really, really key points, but I think the the culture ad always stands out to me because I just think, yeah, I always, even now, like, you know, with with our clients, you know, yeah, we've got a team fit interview. I'd love for that to be called a team ad interview. Like what is this person going to add to the team?
00:31:11
Speaker
But then related to what you said, Patricia, like how can we ensure that we actually do get the pipeline being a bit more diverse by using a bit more inclusion in the ads as well. I feel like everything kind of links and, and yeah, like said, Karina, I think we have taken a few steps backwards. I think when I first started speaking about these topics, I felt that we were maybe in a much better position, whereas I feel like now we have taken a step back where, why are we still even having to have these sorts of conversations for it to be a topic? It doesn't, it's not an afterthought, it should just be included in general.
00:31:39
Speaker
i think it wouldn't have a bias if we were minority. Yeah, that's the point. it were half half, for example, it wouldn't be, we wouldn't have to have bias. We wouldn't have bias because it's equal division, right?
00:31:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, no amazing. Well, thank you so much. I could sit here and chat for the next hour with you both, but thank you again for joining me. And yes, I'm such good insights. I was actually taking notes to do some um content myself um on these topics. So yeah, thank you again. I really appreciate it.
00:32:09
Speaker
Thank you. Thanks a lot for having us.